1 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newtsworld. In the middle of April 2 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:10,319 Speaker 1: two thousand and seventh, a short, bald and burly man 3 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: with a limp and a cane walked into the West 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: wing of the White House. He carried a small briefcase 5 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: with a few folders chaotically jutting out. The man showed 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: his diplomatic passport at the entrance. He was under the 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: impression that he would be brought directly of the Oval 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: Office for a private meeting with the President, but instead 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: the guards were under orders to keep his name off 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: the official visitor logs and to clandestinely escort him to 11 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: the office of National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley. Inside, two 12 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: other men were waiting, Hadley's deputy, Elliot Abrams, and a 13 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: surprise guest, the Vice President of the United States, Dick Cheney. 14 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: The man the trio had gathered to meet was Maher Doggin, 15 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: the renowned and feared head of the Mossad, Israel's legendary 16 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: foreign spy agency and the equivalent of the CIA. A 17 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: few days earlier, Prime Minister Ehod Olmert had called President 18 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: George W. Bush and told him that Doggin would be 19 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: coming to Washington with some important information I'd appreciate if 20 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: you could meet him. Olmert told Bush. The request, phrased 21 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: in a way that seemed urgent, took Bush and his 22 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: staff by surprise. Heads of state, even close allies like Holmbert, 23 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: don't usually ask the president to meet the directors of 24 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 1: their intelligence agencies alone. If they ever do meet them, 25 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: it is almost always according to diplomatic protocol and in 26 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: the presence of the foreign leader. So the president's aides 27 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: decided to stick to protocol. They would first meet with Doggin, 28 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: evaluate whatever information he was bringing with him, and if needed, 29 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: take him to see the President. Cheney was briefed about 30 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: the pending visit and decided to sit in on the meeting. 31 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: He knew Doggin and figure that based on Olmert's special request, 32 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,279 Speaker 1: it must be urgent. Doggin took a seat on the couch. 33 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: Cheney settled into a large blue wing chair to his right. 34 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: Now one for small talk. Doggin got straight to the point. 35 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: Syria is building a nuclear reactor, the Massad chief said. 36 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: This is the beginning of Yakov Kat's new book, Shadows 37 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: Strike Inside Israel's secret mission to eliminate Syrian nuclear power. 38 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 1: Yakov katz is, the editor in chief of the Jerusalem Post. 39 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: I'm pleased to have him as my guest today. There 40 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: are parts of this book that about people I know personally, 41 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: and you capture them in such a way. I'm astounded 42 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: by how you put it all together. So let me 43 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: start by asking you, if you would start at the beginning, 44 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: were you do with the book in Vienna, and before 45 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: that the impact of the Libyan announcement of a nuclear 46 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: weapons program, which the Israelis did not realize existence. The 47 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: story really begins with a suspicion that something nuclear was 48 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: happening in Syria, and Israel just couldn't put a finger 49 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: on it. They didn't know where it was coming from. 50 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: It didn't know exactly what it was even it didn't 51 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: know what was happening, but it had a feeling and 52 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: a hunch that something beyond the norm was going on. 53 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: They knew that Syria had this Chinese reactor that was 54 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: given to it by the Chinese back in the late 55 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: eighties early nineties. They knew all the staff members was 56 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: maybe a dozen people who worked there. Nothing Sirius, just 57 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: a research reactor. But something more was going on and 58 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: they couldn't figure out what it was. You mentioned Libya 59 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: in December of two thousand and three, when Numa Kadafi 60 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: announced that he was relinquish change his nuclear program. Israel 61 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: was shocked. Israel had no CREWE and Libya was a 62 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: state that for years had been an enemy state to Israel. 63 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: And it's basically got the Israelis to realize that there's 64 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: could be so much more that they don't know, and 65 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: that's what started this general feeling and sense of suspicion 66 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: that then at the other nuclear programs that are out there. 67 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: But again when it came to Syria, they couldn't put 68 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: their finger on what it was. They just had a 69 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: hunch until Vienna. In March of two thousand and seven, 70 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: agents from Israel's Mossad, the equivalent of the CIA, food 71 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 1: of Vienna, and they knew that visiting the city that 72 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: week was going to be a Serian nuclear scientist. The 73 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: head of the Sirian Atomic Energy Commissioner's name is Ibrahim Otman, 74 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: and they went into his hotel room, obviously, when he 75 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: wasn't there, they downloaded the contents of his computer. They 76 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: brought back to Israel. They had the material processed and 77 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: they were floored. They had pictures of a nuclear reactor 78 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: under construction in northeastern Syria being constructed by the North Koreans. Really, 79 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: you had pictures of the reactor, the outside structure of 80 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: the poll of the reactor. And the kicker I'd like 81 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: to say, is this one photo of Oltman, the serious scientist, 82 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: posing in front of a nuclear reactor together with a 83 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: man of the Asian ethnicity who's wearing a blue track suit. 84 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: And it turns up to this guy. His name is 85 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: Chun Chiboo and he is the head of the Young 86 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: Nuclear Complex in North Korea. So you right their head, 87 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: this amazing evidence of this nuclear cooperation between two rogue states, 88 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: dangerous countries in Israel's backyard. But that's the beginning. Now 89 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: they're faced with a potential reality, but they also have 90 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: to verify that it's real correct, So they have these pictures. 91 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: The first process is verification. You're hundred percent right, and 92 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: you know, anyone who's worked in intel knows, okay, you 93 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: get something, but you got to make sure that the 94 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: evidence is real and you got to back it up 95 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: with additional proof. So they's satellite images. They found this 96 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 1: building in the northeastern desert to Syria that they couldn't 97 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 1: tell what it was they in the what it was 98 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: doing there. It didn't look like a reactor, but they 99 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: quickly understood this was that building. What made it even 100 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: stranger was the fact that there were no military bases nearby, 101 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: there were no air defense systems nearby. It was as 102 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: if they were building a nuclear reactor, but they weren't 103 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: protecting it, which didn't make sense. But on the other hand, 104 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: when Israel realized what assad Or Sharlasa, the presidents of Syria, 105 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: was trying to do, as he was building this reactor 106 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: and hiding it from the world, and if he had 107 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: placed military positions nearby, people would understand that this is 108 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: a sensitive and important facility. This way he was able 109 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: to try to continue to hide the true nature. They 110 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: did the verification, they went through it, and right away 111 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: the time Minister at the time, Ahud Olmert, understood that 112 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: this facility had to go away. This was a reality 113 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: that Israel cannot allow to exist. This. Rael is a 114 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: tiny country. It's a country the size of New Jersey. 115 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: It's a country without strategic debt. So a nuclear bomb 116 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: that would land, let's say, in the center of the 117 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: country near tell of these would be devastating for the 118 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: entire country, the entire Jewish nation. It could make the 119 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: potential life in this state unviable. Not to mention radioactive 120 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: fallout to nearby states like Jordan, the risk of the 121 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: state of Israel is just a few dozen miles, you 122 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: would have radioactive fallout all throughout the region. So it's 123 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: something that Israel can't allow to happen. It's not like, 124 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: you know, the nuclear weapon falls somewhere in the Midwest, 125 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: the East coast and the West coasts are still going 126 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: to be okay, right, but not in Israel's case. And therefore, 127 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: when an enemy state is in the process of building 128 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: that capability, that's when the Israel can't live with. But 129 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: you know, we're talking about intelligence for a moment, Israel 130 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: was lucky here. Israel discovered the reactor in an advanced 131 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: stage of construction. It had been under construction for years. 132 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: When it discovered, it realized that the Serians were just 133 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: a few months away from making it active, from installing 134 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: the fuel rods, and the reactor would go hot if 135 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: they were going to take action. They had a very 136 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: narrow window, so it was really amazing rock that they 137 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: managed to discover it when they did. Next, Yakov Cats 138 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: explains is really Prime Minister Olmert's dilemma. Prime Minister Elmert 139 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: has a dilemma because under the Israeli doctrine that they'll 140 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 1: never risk holocaust by having an enemy with a weapon 141 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: of mass destruction, something has to be done to get 142 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: rid of this reactor, and it has to be relatively 143 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: timely before it goes hot and actually starts producing nuclear material, 144 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: because potentially bombing it after it starts producing nuclear matrail 145 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: could cause a substantial amount of damage in the region. 146 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: But his first big hurdle is the Americans, because he 147 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: ideally would like them to solve it for him, but 148 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: if they're not going to solid he needs them to 149 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: be on his side if he solves him. Could you 150 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: walk through what the American problem was at that point 151 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: a while it was so difficult to get them to operate. 152 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: I think that this is really one of the big 153 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: parts of the story. Elmert realizes from the get go 154 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: this thing has to disappear. Is Rael cannot live with 155 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: the nuclear reactor inferior. The question is how to do it. 156 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: In March of two thousand and seven. When Israel discovers 157 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: this reactor, we are just seven months after the war 158 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: in Lebanon that was known as the Second Lebanon War 159 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: against his Ballah. It was a war that ended poorly 160 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,719 Speaker 1: for Israel. There was no decisive victory. His Ballah was 161 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: still there. They had managed to fire over four thousand 162 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: rockets in a month. They caused devastation, destruction, They killed 163 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: over one hundred and twenty two soldiers, dozens of civilians. 164 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: They were calls for Olmert to step down because of 165 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,719 Speaker 1: the failures of that war. He under pressure appointed his 166 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: State Commission of Inquiry to look into those failures, which 167 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: would then a month later release its interim report, which 168 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: would be damning for him and for the Defense Minister 169 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: and for the Chief of Staff. So that's the context. 170 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: Right now. Olmert knows this. The IDF, Thevil Defense Forces 171 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: is in the process of rehabilitating and repairing itself. There 172 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: were many flaws that would discovered during that war, and 173 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,719 Speaker 1: they're rebuilding itself and they're learning those lessons to be 174 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: able to apply them in case there is a future war. 175 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: So that's context one which is extremely important because one 176 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 1: of the reasons that Olmert wanted the Americans to do. 177 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: It was if America carries out the attack, there's less 178 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 1: of a chance of retaliation against Israel and then his 179 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,079 Speaker 1: role and find itself in a major war. That was 180 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: a small reason. The bigger reason was what Olmert was 181 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 1: thinking about iron If Israel bomb Syria, He's told his 182 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 1: staff at the time, the Iranians would say, okay, let's 183 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: expected right. Israel took out the ls Iraq reactor in 184 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: Iraq in nineteen eighty one. Now they took out the 185 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: Suran reactor in two thousand and seven. But there's America 186 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: attack therea If the US since its planes and bombed 187 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: the Syrian reactor, that would move the Uranians think really, 188 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: really hard. And as we all know, back in two 189 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: thousand and three, when the US was building up its 190 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 1: forces in the Persian Golf ahead of the invasion of Iraq, 191 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 1: that's when the Iranians suspended their nuclear program because they 192 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 1: feared at the time that they would be next in line. 193 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: Bush went after the Taliban, Bush went after Saddam and 194 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 1: maybe he'd go after the Iranians next. And for two 195 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: years they suspended everything because when there's a credible military 196 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: threat on the table, the Iranians calculate differently. So Olmert 197 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: knew that if Bush were to attack the Serian reactor, 198 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: that could potentially get the Uranians to say, WHOA, We're 199 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: dealing with a different US president. We have to be careful, 200 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: and that would have such strategic benefit, not just for Israel, 201 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: this would have been a gift to the entire world. 202 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 1: So he sends his head of the Most Sad, Mayor Dagon, 203 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: to Washington, DC in April of two thousand and seven, 204 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: with those photos that the Mossad had obtained in Vienna. 205 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: He goes to a meeting with Steve Hadley, the National 206 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,719 Speaker 1: Security Advisor, Eliot Abrams, Hadley's deputy, the deputy on the 207 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: National Security Council in charge of the Middle East portfolio, 208 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: and a surprise guest who decided to sit in on 209 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: the meeting because he was intrigued, why is the head 210 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: of the most side coming to meet us? Dick Cheney, 211 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: Vice President of the United States, And he lays out 212 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 1: the photos. He shows them everything, which, as you know, 213 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: news prere vast experience that doesn't often happen, right that 214 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: you bring raw intelligence, usually bring an analysis, you share 215 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: with him some ideas or conceptions. Here was the raw intelligence, 216 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: and it was because Israel really wanted to get the 217 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,719 Speaker 1: Americans on board, and that's set off a whole process 218 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: on the US side of what their considerations would be. 219 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: Bushed set up two different teams to consider and debate 220 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: and plan. Over a period of two and a half 221 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: three months, they came up with a wide variety of options, 222 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: from a straightforward airstrike to a covert operation sending in 223 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: special forces, to bombing just a part of the facility, 224 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: not the entire facility, until ultimately the proposal that they 225 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: came up with, which Bush septed and decided that this 226 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: is what he wanted, was a multi tier plan that 227 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: would first see the public outing of Asad, denouncing and 228 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: revealing the existence of the reactor of the world, taking 229 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: him to the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, 230 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 1: then to the Security Council in New York, imposing sanctions 231 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 1: demanding the destruction of the reactor, and if all that failed, 232 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: then US military force. And when he told that to 233 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: Olmer in July two thousand and seven, that that was 234 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: his decision. Olmer said to mister President, this is unacceptable 235 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: this is not acceptable. I've told you this needed to 236 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: disappear and needed to go away, and if you're not 237 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: going to do it, I'm going to do it. And 238 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: I tell him the book. How in the Oval that day, 239 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: I think it was July thirteenth, it was a Friday. 240 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 1: You had Bush on the phone with Olmert was in 241 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: Juris from Bush in DC. You had Hadley and Abrams 242 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: in the Oval together with him, listening on different phone receivers, 243 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: and Abrahams later told me how he was terrified that 244 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: after this phone conversation with the Israeli Prime minister, basically, 245 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: I don't know if a better word than to say, 246 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: just had hutzpah, right, I mean talked back to the 247 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: US president that's not going to you think happened that often. 248 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: He thought the President would be furious, but instead the 249 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: President puts down the phone and says, you know, I 250 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: like that guy. He's got guns. And as Hadley later 251 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: explained to me, President George W. Bush respected leaders who 252 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: stood up for the conviction, respected leaders who stood up 253 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: for what they belief was right, and recognize that Israel 254 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: saw this differently than the United States. And therefore, even 255 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: when later Gates comes to him, Conde leaves of rice conference. 256 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: Is you have to stop Olmert. You can't let him attack? 257 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: Bush said, no, it's an existential threat to Israel. Israel 258 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: used this differently than us. If it wasn't first all, 259 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: we weren't even known about it. If this is what 260 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: Israel's going to do, We're not going to stop them. 261 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: And that's also the Bush's credit. The other amazing piece 262 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: of all this is the two step process, one of 263 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:28,239 Speaker 1: using commandos to verify the reactor, in doing so apparently 264 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: so covertly that the Serians didn't realize that happened. And 265 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: then the other was the training and the focus on 266 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: the mission itself. Can you talk first about this remarkable 267 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: intervention by helicopter born commandos and which I thought was 268 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: as interesting as anything in the whole books, a pretty 269 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: fascinating story. Israel bombs the reactor in September six, two seven, 270 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: but in August Olmert, together with the IDs, decides to 271 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: send a small team of commandos to the area near 272 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: the reactor. It was a twofold objective. The first was 273 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: again verification. They wanted to see it on their own. 274 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: They wanted to take some samples of the soil. They 275 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: wanted to get some really close proximity photographs of what 276 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: was happening there and see it from the ground of 277 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: what were the real installations that were nearby, what type 278 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: of resistance potentially existed. But also what they wanted to 279 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: do was to create a capability to be able to 280 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: send a covert mission to destroy the reactor, because once 281 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: they decided in Israel that the way to destroy it 282 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: was to do it as quietly as possible and never 283 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: to take credit for it, then what they wanted to 284 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: do is do it in a way that would not 285 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: lead anyone directly back to Israel. So there are a 286 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: lot of plans that were thought of. For example, the 287 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: easiest would be to send twenty aircraft or the reactor. 288 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: Drop your bombs, but you send twenty fighter planes, everyone 289 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: knows where they came from. That's on one end of 290 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: the spectrum. The other extreme would be defended small group 291 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: of commandos like those guys who went there on that 292 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: August raid, just with some explosives to infiltrate the actual facility, 293 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: attached the explosives and bring down the facility. And that 294 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 1: raid in August was meant to show and to prove 295 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: that they have the capability to get as close and 296 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 1: to get to the reactor. Ultimately, they decided against that. 297 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: The Chief of staff felt that that was too big 298 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 1: a risk for a couple of reasons. One was the 299 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: risk to the actual commandos if one got caught, people 300 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: got captured. Two was what happens if they don't have 301 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: enough explosives to take down the entire building. And they 302 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: felt that it was more important to go at the 303 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: safer route of complete destruction of the reactor, but not 304 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: to do it as in a massive aerial operation, to 305 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: do it small so only it's about five six aircraft 306 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: that was it, and in the end that's how they 307 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: took it out. The pilots started training early on. Now 308 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: they hand picked the pilots from a bunch of different squads, 309 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: trends and as you know newt In Israel, you have 310 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: your standing military, but you also have your reservists, especially 311 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,959 Speaker 1: in the Air Force. The reservists continue to fly till 312 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 1: they are forty five, sometimes even till they're fifty. This 313 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: group of pilots started training weekly regularly for a mission 314 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 1: that they were told was going to be about six 315 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 1: to seven hundred kilometers away from Israel. They didn't know 316 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 1: where it was, they weren't told the country, they weren't 317 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: told what the target would be. But they had to 318 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: train because as I later discovered, and I wrote about 319 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: this in the book, I tell how a Barrack, former 320 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: Prime Minister, who at the time was the Defense Minister, 321 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: the morning after the bombing, goes home and stands on 322 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: the balcony of his apartment and one of these high 323 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: rise apartment buildings in Tel Aviv, overlooking the city, and 324 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 1: he was on the twentieth floor, and as he's standing 325 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 1: there drinking his morning coffee, he realizes he's like, holy cow, 326 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: the pilots flew lower than my apartment all the way 327 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: to Syria because to avoid radar afection they had to 328 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: fly low, super low, just a couple hundred feet above 329 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 1: the ground. So that's what they had to train for, 330 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: and they had to train a lot for that to 331 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: be able to do that, and do that right only 332 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: the day of the attack, so that afternoon where they 333 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: told where they were going and what their target was 334 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: going to be. So imagine for a moment, you're a 335 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: piloting Israeli air force. You've been training for a mission. 336 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: You have no clue what it is. You know it's 337 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: important because no one's telling you too much. You know 338 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 1: it's got to be saying big. But then you're told 339 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: it's a nuclear reactor just over the border in Syria. 340 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: You know. The pilots told me that. Years later, they 341 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: were shaking with emotion still because of just how they 342 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: recognize and realize this is not just another mission. This 343 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: is a mission to save and to ensure the continued 344 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: survival of the only Jewish state in the world. I 345 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: wonder if they had the same feeling back in eighty one, 346 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: that there are those moments when you know it's not 347 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: it's not just a job or even just a mission, 348 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: but that this could be a decisive event in enabling 349 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 1: your country to literally survive, which is something that non 350 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: israelis because of the difference in size and scale, it's 351 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: hard for us to realize how, on the one hand, 352 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: stunningly prosperous israelis, and on the other hand, how every 353 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: morning how close it is to a potential disaster. I 354 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 1: think this is one of those moments, and that's why 355 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: the story is so interesting, so important because of the 356 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 1: silence in Israel, for so many years it never got 357 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: its proper place. People know about the bombing of the 358 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: Iraqi reactor, and there was a similar case there. You're 359 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: one hundred percent right that then two the pilots were 360 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: training for a mission which is farther away, right, and 361 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: they weren't told what the target was. They didn't know. 362 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 1: They drew imaginary circles around the state of Israel eight 363 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: hundred miles that they were told they would have to 364 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: fly back in eighty one and they didn't know. They thought, 365 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: you know, maybe we're going to Iran, maybe we're going 366 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: to some our nigrit They're going, yeah, t Iraq, but 367 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: what's an Iraq? They knew it was reactor, but they 368 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:06,919 Speaker 1: never thought that that Israel was going to attack it 369 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: at the time. And then just a couple of days 370 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: before the mission that they were revealed what their target 371 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 1: was going to be. And I think that these are 372 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: those moments that these people are created for without a doubt. 373 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 1: At one level. Is not surprising because Israel Air Force 374 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 1: has a remarkable record. They had to do in a 375 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: very constrained way because they didn't want the footprint to 376 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: be big enough that the Syrians had to notice it. 377 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: They also had to do it this way because only 378 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: a handful of people in Israel knew about it, So 379 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: they kept the pilots in the dark because they didn't 380 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 1: want to run even the risk that the pilots would 381 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: say something to somebody and then it would get out. 382 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: The plan was all dependent on one thing, and one 383 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: thing only, that assade. They didn't know that Israel knew 384 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: about it, because the moment Assad would have discovered that 385 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: Israel knew about his reactor, it says Michael Hayden said, 386 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: the head of the CIA at the time, he would 387 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: send that busslow the kindergarten kids, put them in the reactor, 388 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: and then Israel would never be able to attack. No 389 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: one would be able to attack, right, So everything was 390 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: dependent on a side not knowing that we knew about it, 391 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: and that's why only a select few people could actually 392 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: know what was really happening, if I remember correctly. At 393 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: this point, he's also under huge pressure with a corruption scandal, 394 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: so on the one side, he's weakened domestically, and he's 395 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 1: about to make one of the most important decisions in 396 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: Israeli history without his due. The two big real achievements 397 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: of all murd here. I think that makes his story 398 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: so unique is exactly what you just said. I mentioned 399 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: the context of the second leapin on war. You mentioned 400 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: that the corruption allegations against that you eventually would send 401 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: him to jail. The first is early prime minister to 402 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: go to jail. But I just want to take you 403 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: back to that March meeting when Dagan, the head of 404 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: the Most Sad, brings those photos to Almert. They're sitting 405 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: in his office in Jerusalem and as Olmert is looking 406 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: at the photos and digesting that literally his world has 407 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: now changed. Right, there's a knock on the door of 408 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: his office. He says, go away. The knocking persists. The 409 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: door opens and it's a spokesperson and he says not now, 410 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: And the spokesperson says, no, I need to ask you 411 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: a question because it's almost eight o'clock news, that's the 412 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: primetime TV news in Israel, and we just got a question. 413 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: They're about to unveil or reveal in our news report 414 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: a never criminal investigation against you. What should we respond? 415 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 1: It almost said, I don't care, get the hell out 416 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: of here. But I mentioned that because with the problems 417 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: that we saw on the love and on the war, 418 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: the corruption allegations against him, and the fact that you 419 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: have a US president who says, listen, I got your back. 420 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,239 Speaker 1: I'll take care of it. It's not the way you 421 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 1: want me to, but I will ultimately take care of it. 422 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: He had all the reasons in the world to say 423 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to go to the Americans on this right, 424 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: He's got the US president who says I got your back. 425 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: He's got to the head of the id ACT who saying, listen, 426 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: there's a fifty percent chance we're going to have a war, 427 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: not with his balla but with the Syrian military, the 428 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: largest and most lethal conventional military that is a threat 429 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: to US still today. And this back in two thousand 430 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: and seven, and the corruption allegations. He could have gone 431 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: with the Americans, he stood up, He said no. I 432 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: think that was that first major act of bravery. And 433 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 1: I think the second thing which was striking for me. 434 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: Israel had a policy, but it wasn't going to speak 435 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: about what it did. Its strategy was if it stays quiet, 436 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: it believed that it could create only call the deniability 437 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 1: zone that Asad would move into because so little people 438 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: knew in so few people knew in Syria about this 439 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: that if Israel never said anything, Asad would sweep it 440 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: under the rug and he wouldn't retaliate because he prefer 441 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: not to go to war. And that's ultimately what happened. 442 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: But Olmert, who leaves office in two thousand and nine, 443 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: who later gets indicted, who then gets convicted, who then 444 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 1: gets sentenced, who let appeals and gets sentenced again, who 445 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: gets sent to jail, who leaves jail, that all those 446 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 1: points along the way could have stood up and said, 447 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: are you guys crazy? I see all of you. I 448 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: saved you from a nuclear weapon. But he never did that. 449 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 1: To me, that's impressive. At no point didn try to 450 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: use this for political benefit. He shouldn't take that for granted. 451 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: But I think part of that is they had reached 452 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: a conclusion that if he did take credit for it, 453 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: he would become a public event and Hassad would feel 454 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: compelled to retaliate, correct whereas if he'd behaved as though 455 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: nothing had happened and allowed the Syrians to behave as 456 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: though nothing had happened. Exactly. It's a brilliant strategy executed 457 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: with enormous discipline. I can tell you that as a 458 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:52,199 Speaker 1: journalist who's been covering the political and military echelons in 459 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: this country for about two decades now, you don't see 460 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: that discipline on every issue. This was unique in that sense. 461 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: I think it was because, having been through the Lebanon War, 462 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,360 Speaker 1: which did not go well for Omart, he realized if 463 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: you could find a way to eliminate the threat without 464 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: starting a war with Syria, that would be enormous change. 465 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: I had known him for many years, but my respect 466 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: for his patriotism, his discipline, and his understanding of priorities 467 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: really skyrocketed when I read your book. I thought it 468 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: was a remarkable achievement of his part. Coming up twelve 469 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: years after the mission, we'd be living in a very 470 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: different world if the Israelis had enacted. When you look 471 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: back both of the Iraqi reactor which was taken out 472 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: by Israel and eighty one, and you look at the 473 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: reactor in Syria that was taken out in two thousand 474 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: and seven. On both occasions, Israel did an enormous service 475 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: to the entire planet by reducing the danger of nuclear 476 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: weapons falling into truly irresponsible and truly dangerous hands. That's 477 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: something that frankly, Israel does not get enough credit for 478 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: I think you're one hundred percent day. Israel is the 479 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 1: only country in the world today to have taken action 480 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: and removed to nuclear reactors that were a threat not 481 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: just to Israel but to the entire world. You go 482 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 1: back to nineteen eighty one, and you'll remember this. At 483 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 1: the time, the US administration, the Reagan administration, was not 484 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: happy that Israel took that unilateral step. But ten years later, 485 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: during the First Gulf War an Operation Desert Storm, when 486 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: Dick Cheney then was actually the Secretary of Defense, he 487 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: recognized that I hadn't taken out that reactor ten years earlier, 488 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: Operation Doesn't Store might not have been possible because Soda 489 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: would have had nuclear weapon. When we'd look back now 490 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: twelve years that have passed since the destruction of the 491 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: Syrian reactor. Now, imagine that there had been the civil 492 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: war that was in Syria. Imagine that Isis had taken 493 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,439 Speaker 1: over that territory where that reactor one stood, which you did. 494 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: In twenty fourteen. Isis conquered the region known as Dirazor 495 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: near the Euphrates River in northeastern Syria where that reactor stood. 496 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: And imagine Isis had gotten his hands on a nuclear reactor, 497 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: you would have radioactive, dirty bombs throughout the world. Right 498 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: it is you will build a service, not just to 499 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: a sofa, to the entire world. And you know, forget 500 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: about Isis even for a moment. But Shah Alasa has 501 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: showed the world in the last eight years of the 502 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: civil war in Syria that he has no red line. 503 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: He's willing to use chemical weapons against his own people. 504 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: You have over half a million people who have been 505 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: killed in the civil war. What would have stopped him 506 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: from using a nuclear weapon against Israel against his own people. 507 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: Who knows? Right, it would be a different world that 508 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: we would live in today. And I think that it's 509 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,959 Speaker 1: so important also because when we think about the Uranians 510 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: and the possibility and prospect that one day they will 511 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: get their hands on nuclear weapons, this needs to be 512 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: the alarm zone. We need to be listening to it 513 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: because if Ivron gets its hands in nuclear weapons, that's 514 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: a game changer as well, and they have to be 515 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: stopped before they have it. That's when they need to 516 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: be stopped, not after they get it. I think it 517 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: is a remarkable story and you do literally a novelist 518 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: job of writing it. So brilliantly that it's a page 519 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: turning to roll the way through. I'm really delighted that 520 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: you had spend this amount of time. Is there anything 521 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: else you want to add to it? The only thing 522 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: I want to say is that you're an amazing person. 523 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for everything you do and 524 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: how you stand with the date of Israel, and really 525 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: thank you for that. Thank you to my guest Jakov Katz. 526 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: You can read an extrat of his book Shadow Strike, 527 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: Inside Israel's secret mission to eliminate Syrian nuclear power on 528 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced 529 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: by Gingwis Sweet sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producers Debbie Myers, 530 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: our producers Guardsi Sloan, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 531 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 532 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingwich Sweet sixty. If 533 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 534 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give 535 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 536 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners at Newtsworld can sign up for my 537 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: three free weekly columns at Gingwich three sixty dot com 538 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.