1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: My husband grew up Catholic and he was so mad 2 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 1: when we left, just thinking like, this kind of stuff 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,319 Speaker 1: is why people leave the church, why they don't trust God. 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 2: Jess Cassavetto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for 6 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 2: the Devil The Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series 7 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 2: explored the story of Robert Schin, the La based Chakaina 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 2: Church and Seven M Films. Shinn founded Chakaina Church over 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 2: two decades ago before establishing Seven M Films and is 10 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 2: named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior. 11 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 3: And I'm Fleiah Gray, former member of Chicaina Church and 12 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 3: Seven M Films. 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 2: In this episode, former Chicaina member Amanda shares her personal journey, 14 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 2: beginning with her current emotional state and the reasons for 15 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 2: coming forward. She recounts her initial connection with the church 16 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 2: and Robert Schin, her meeting and marrying her husband there, 17 00:00:57,920 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: as well as her various roles within the church. 18 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 3: In our conversation, we talk about pivotal moments such as 19 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 3: her realization of Robert's true nature and her husband's evolving 20 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 3: reaction to the accusations against Robert. Finally, we discussed the 21 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 3: steps that she took to protect herself from manipulation after 22 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 3: leaving the church, along with insights on deprogramming, changes in 23 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 3: her perspective on faith and community, and advice for those 24 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 3: currently in or leaving cult like situations. 25 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 2: In just a quick note, today's episode tackles sensitive subjects, 26 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 2: including discussions of sexual abuse and trauma. Listener discretion is advised. 27 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: Now our conversation with Amanda. Amanda, so happy to have 28 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 2: you a part of this podcast to hear your story. 29 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 4: Thank you guys for having me. 30 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 3: Thank you. 31 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 2: Maybe we just start from the beginning. How did you 32 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 2: first get in contact with Robert and the Shakaina Church. 33 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 4: So, just to kind of give you a background of me, 34 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 4: I have grown up as a Christian. My parents were Christian, 35 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,359 Speaker 4: went to a Christian school, graduated from high school to 36 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 4: private school. So after I graduated, I was at a 37 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 4: movie theater, was taking a friend and we were watching 38 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 4: a movie. We came out of the movie theater and 39 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 4: there was Daniel, you know Daniel and Ryan, who was 40 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 4: someone who was at Chikaina, Robert's nephew. So they're both 41 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 4: around my age at the time, what nineteen or so, 42 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 4: and they came up to us and they kind of said, hey, 43 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 4: like do you have the time, and you know, kind 44 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 4: of played it cool, and then they started sharing about 45 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 4: Jesus and their church. They asked my friend if she 46 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 4: was saved, and they like led her to the Lord 47 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 4: right there in front of me, and I was impressed. 48 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 4: I had never seen anybody my age that looked normal 49 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 4: going out witnessing, and so I really felt like I 50 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 4: was wowed by it. They give flyer and so we 51 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 4: decided to go to the church. At this time, there 52 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 4: was a lot of young people, They're all excited about God. 53 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 4: It was just something I've never witnessed, and so that 54 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 4: was attractive and appealing to me. And I was like 55 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 4: going to my church once a week, then this church 56 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 4: once a week, and then eventually I started going to 57 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 4: this church twice a week and then got invited to 58 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 4: the morning prayer, and that's when my friend kind of 59 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:27,559 Speaker 4: dropped off, But I ended up staying. 60 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 3: How long were you in Chicina for? 61 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 4: Basically like two thousand and one to two thousand and eight, 62 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 4: So I was there for seven years and then we 63 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 4: escaped Robert, but we were still kind of under his 64 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 4: sister for a year. So it was like I really 65 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 4: really escaped everything in two thousand and nine, got it? 66 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: What was the morning prayer? 67 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 3: Like? 68 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 4: Yes, so the morning prayer you show up at I 69 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 4: don't know, five fifty or something like that. You'd go 70 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 4: and you'd line up, you'd pray, and you would sing 71 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 4: a couple worship songs, like randomly, someone would start a song, 72 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 4: another one would start another song, and then after that. 73 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 4: There was a microphone on the stage and I can't 74 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 4: remember if Catherine would like touch her back to go 75 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 4: up there and pray out loud, but everyone would be 76 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 4: running the whole time. It was an hour every day 77 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 4: Monday through Friday. I never saw Robert up there, but 78 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 4: he would sometimes be like sitting in the chairs in 79 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 4: the back. 80 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 3: And I know some people were working like full time jobs, 81 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 3: so they would go and do this at five of 82 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 3: the morning and then go off to their job. 83 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 4: And sometimes after that we would come back go to 84 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 4: church and then go to bed for a little bit 85 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 4: and then come right back the next day. 86 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 2: So you were doing morning prayer every single. 87 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 4: Day, yes, four years wow. And then it kind of 88 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 4: shifted like they started doing it separate. I lived in 89 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 4: the girl's home before I got married, but we would 90 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 4: all meet at the park or some people would meet 91 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 4: at Catherine's house. 92 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 3: Interesting, so how did you and your husband meet? 93 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 4: So we met there. He worked with Shirley and he 94 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,799 Speaker 4: just knows something different about her, and so I guess 95 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 4: she ended up inviting him to come. So one day 96 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 4: at morning prayer he was there. And so the way 97 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 4: they she kinda operated before is they would have somebody 98 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 4: from the church get a good job, and then they 99 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 4: would have that person bring in church members to work. 100 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 4: So we ended up working at the same place, and 101 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 4: we would have to carpool together from morning prayer to 102 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 4: like drive together to church. Nobody was supposed to know 103 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 4: we were coming together, so I had to lay down 104 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 4: like in the car so no one can so no 105 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 4: one could tell we were together. So that's kind of 106 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 4: how we got to know each other. We ended up 107 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 4: just kind of naturally falling in love when we wouldn't 108 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 4: have the opportunity otherwise because they don't allow you to 109 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 4: be alone with guys or anything. There was no dating allowed. 110 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 2: So if you weren't allowed to date in the church, 111 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 2: when did you get the blessing? Or permission to be 112 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 2: able to date your husband. 113 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 4: My husband talked to Robert and said, hey, you know, 114 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 4: I'm interested in her. And I remember a Robert on 115 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 4: a Wednesday announcing from the pulpit, Okay, you guys are 116 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 4: allowed to date. So I was like, okay, and then 117 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 4: we had to go in like a chaperone date and peace, 118 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 4: and Hannah was our chaperone, and we didn't date for 119 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 4: very long. We wanted to get married as soon as possible. 120 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 2: You also mentioned something, just to go back for a second, 121 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 2: that there was the women's group. You lived in the 122 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 2: women's house. What was that? 123 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 4: That was where certain girls from the house would live. 124 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 4: They live together. The way things worked was like if 125 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 4: you wanted to grow and you get closer to God, 126 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 4: no one ever told you like you have to live there, 127 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 4: but the environment allowed itself to be like, Okay, I'm 128 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 4: watching this person live in this house. This person's live 129 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 4: in this house. They're giving up themselves and they're denying themselves. 130 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 4: They're doing this, So that's what I want to do. 131 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 4: So I remember at nineteen, I told my parents, Okay, 132 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 4: I'm moving out. I'm gonna go live with the church 133 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 4: or live with the ladies. But I remember I lived 134 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 4: with maybe five and Lamorada and that was back in 135 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 4: two thousand and one, two thousand and two, and I 136 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 4: remember being charged to share a room like twelve hundred 137 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 4: dollars or something. But back then that was a lot. 138 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 4: And I remember being told like, if you question that 139 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 4: that's a lot, you're being greedy. And you know, you 140 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 4: pretty much don't have a lot of time to be there. 141 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 4: You're not home a lot, You're there to sleep and 142 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 4: there's like mandatory chores. But yeah, I lived there that 143 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 4: was called the Mighty Girl House, and then I lived 144 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 4: on another one which is called the Glory Girl House. 145 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 4: At the time, it was fine, but I look back 146 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 4: and it's just ridiculous because of the whole system that 147 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 4: they had of like telling on each other or reporting 148 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 4: on each other. It just it wasn't very comfortable. I 149 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 4: remember one time our house captain literally sat me down 150 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 4: and was like, how many like things of tissue are 151 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 4: you using when you use the restroom? No show me 152 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 4: like how many? And I'm like, really, it's insane to 153 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 4: think how like little Robert wanted us to live off 154 00:07:58,880 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 4: of and Catherine. 155 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 2: You know, so then when you and your husband got married. 156 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: Did you end up leaving the house that you were 157 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 2: living in with the women and did you guys get 158 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 2: to live together or were you still separated. 159 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 4: Yes, we did live together, but it was very hard 160 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 4: because at that time we had to email Robert every 161 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 4: week what we've read and kind of like tell on 162 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 4: each other. So I will report on my husband and 163 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 4: he will report on me. And so even though we 164 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 4: are married, living together was not how it's meant to be. 165 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that was something that my husband, Kevin, had 166 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 3: a big issue with because they'd always tell us like, 167 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 3: you should be closer to your mentor than your spouse. 168 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 3: So I understand when you say, like that dynamic is 169 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 3: not how it's supposed to be because now there's other 170 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 3: people in your marriage. It's like you're not getting to 171 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 3: build that relationship with each other that you need to 172 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 3: build to have a strong foundation of marriage. So you 173 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 3: said you were around during the flowers shop. Did you 174 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,319 Speaker 3: work in the flower shop or what other roles did 175 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 3: you have in shood kinda? 176 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 4: No, I never did work in the flower shop. I 177 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 4: did work for a couple of the companies that the 178 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 4: church member there would work at, So I was doing 179 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 4: that and then there was a season where they started 180 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 4: getting to real estate. I remember Robert came up to 181 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 4: me and literally said, you're going to be a real 182 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 4: estate agent. So I was like, all right. I studied 183 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 4: and their first real estate company. I was a part 184 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 4: of that seventh Millennium Realty seven M Realty. Oh wow, 185 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 4: I have business cards to show you. It's the same logo. 186 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 187 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the same logo. 188 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 4: I mean, the seventh with the M. 189 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. I did not know that. So he's had this 190 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 3: name for a while, the seven M concept. Yes, Oh 191 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 3: my goodness. After the break, we continue our conversation with Amanda. 192 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 3: This is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be 193 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 3: right back. 194 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now 195 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 2: back to our conversation with Amanda. 196 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 3: So at what point did you realize that Robert wasn't 197 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 3: what you thought he was. 198 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 4: I was working at the real estate office, got a 199 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 4: call from Robert, Hey, tell me don't listen to anything 200 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 4: Catherine has to say. And I was like, okay, because 201 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 4: you know, you're just at the point where you just 202 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 4: obey everything he says. He's like God, so you're like okay. 203 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 4: So then that night I went to Chrissy you. 204 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 3: Know, yes, I know Chrissy. 205 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, she was living with the girls and I was 206 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 4: hanging out and then I got a call from somebody 207 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 4: who they said, come out, bring your person, come out, 208 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 4: and so I went out, got in the car. They 209 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 4: drove us to Catherine's house and I didn't know what 210 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 4: was going on, but in my mind I was thinking, 211 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 4: I know something's going on with Catherine. But Robert said 212 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 4: to not listen, so I'll just be like a spy. 213 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 4: So I headed up to Catherine's house. They had pan 214 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 4: picked about half the church, and one of the girls 215 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 4: who was there basically said, hey, like Robert has been 216 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 4: doing inappropriate things, touching girls and massaging. Has that ever 217 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 4: happened to you? And I said yes. And I think 218 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 4: it was at that moment that I realized that the 219 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 4: stuff that I went through it was like not okay. 220 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 4: And it's the first time that I've talked to somebody 221 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 4: else about it. And it was a crazy moment because 222 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 4: that had been like seven years of believing something was okay. 223 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 4: And you're always kind of like any feeling you have 224 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 4: that's like this isn't right, you kind of get taught 225 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 4: that that's just your flesh and you got to like 226 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 4: deny it, you got to push it down. 227 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 3: Did you get to confront him? 228 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 4: It's kind of honestly a blur, but basically we did 229 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 4: do that. We went in Catherine mainly talked and he 230 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 4: was very calm, like he was not putting up a fight, 231 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 4: he was not denying anything. He just was very calm. 232 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 4: He kept so, if you want to leave, go ahead, 233 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 4: and if you want to stay, stay, And so it 234 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 4: was at that point where I left and my husband 235 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 4: stayed because he was brainwashed too, you know, and things 236 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 4: hadn't happened to him like they did me, and so 237 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 4: I think it just took like a little bit longer 238 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 4: for him to like process everything. And I remember after 239 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 4: leaving and then we came to like later that evening. 240 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 4: I was talking to him and I wanted to like 241 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 4: slap him, like do you know what he did to me? 242 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 4: Like do you know? And he told me that Robert 243 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 4: like whispered into his ear and was saying that I 244 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 4: was lying. And it took a couple of days but 245 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 4: he came to. But I mean, the brainwashing is real, 246 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 4: and it's different for guys. 247 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that, Amanda. I 248 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 2: know that that was a really difficult time, But do 249 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 2: you mind if I ask how long you were experiencing 250 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 2: that type of abuse from Robert before you had the 251 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 2: opportunity to have that discussion with other women? How long 252 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 2: were you holding that? 253 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 4: Thankfully, it wasn't long at all. That was very close 254 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 4: to towards the end that that happened, and for me, 255 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 4: it happened once. Basically, he asked me to massage him, 256 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 4: and I thought it was a privilege that I can 257 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 4: go and massage the pastor because he was sore from 258 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 4: playing racquetball all the time. When I got there, there 259 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 4: was another church member girl there. He had us put 260 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 4: blindfolds on and when I went to massage him, he 261 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,599 Speaker 4: was completely nude, but we had blindfolds on so I 262 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 4: couldn't see her. I was not comfortable. My heart was racing. 263 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 4: Robert felt my heart racing, and still like did that 264 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 4: And for me, nothing else transpired after that, but he 265 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 4: did ask me to massage that area, and I was 266 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 4: so like naive or innocent to think that, like, oh, 267 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 4: how could that be sore? That area? You know? And 268 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 4: so I was told not to talk about it with 269 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 4: the person that I massaged him with, and I didn't 270 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 4: even talk to my husband about it really. After that 271 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 4: he would call the office and say, hey, are you busy, 272 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 4: you know Friday night, you know, come massage me? And 273 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 4: I just lied. I said, oh no, I have appointments 274 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 4: and stuff like that. So I just didn't. Thank God, 275 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 4: but for me only happened once. 276 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 2: Oh I'm so sorry. If at any point you're uncomfortable, 277 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 2: please like stop me from asking certain questions, just because 278 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 2: obviously this is a very sensitive subject. But would he 279 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 2: be the one to call people in or how did 280 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 2: that happen? 281 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 4: Probably that makes sense because when I went, Catherine knew 282 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 4: I was going to massage, and I remember I told 283 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 4: my husband I said, hey, I'm going to massage with 284 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 4: the pastor because in my mind it's like it's good. 285 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 4: But I remember getting rebuked by Catherine and saying like 286 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 4: why would you ever say that? And like why would 287 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 4: you tell them his address? Or like why would you 288 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 4: ever put the man of God in danger or whatever? 289 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 2: Because in your mind you thought you were actually just 290 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 2: giving him a back massage, So you're like, what's the problem. Yes, 291 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: so you didn't realize what the extent of the massage 292 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 2: was until you were there. 293 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 4: Oh one hundred percent. Yeah, And I remember he wanted 294 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 4: me to like take off my bra, put this shirt on, 295 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 4: this like T shirt on, and I was just like 296 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 4: in my mind thinking, no, I don't need to change 297 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 4: my brawl, like I'm good, you know, like I'm just 298 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 4: gonna massage, Like what do you know? So still wasn't 299 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 4: registering to me. Yeah, he would just like groom us 300 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 4: to kind of think like, oh, I was a doctor, 301 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 4: so you have to be able to like be able 302 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 4: to touch people and not have like a sexual feeling 303 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 4: or whatever. I remember like he would tell us that, 304 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 4: and he actually did like touch me my chest because 305 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 4: he in him telling me that he did that, and 306 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 4: it was, yeah, disgusting think about it now, but it's 307 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 4: like that's how he groomed us, and he made us 308 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 4: feel like, oh yeah, so he probably made the other 309 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 4: girls feel like, yeah, it's just a massage, you're touching 310 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 4: this area, but it's like a doctor. But that's what 311 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 4: he would tell us. But yeah, I'm so sorry. 312 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 3: And I even remember him saying things like that on 313 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 3: the pulpit when we were there, and so like now, 314 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 3: in hindsight, looking back, it's like, these are the seeds 315 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 3: that he was dropping to like repeat cycles that he's 316 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 3: done before, which is really scary. And I'm like, I'm 317 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 3: just thinking about the people that I know that are 318 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 3: still involved and still around, and I'm like, like, it's 319 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 3: it's reminding me why we are doing this, like this 320 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 3: podcast in this first place and putting that information out there. 321 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 3: So like hopefully at least some of the same tactics 322 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 3: that he's using he can't use anymore because they're being 323 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 3: exposed and being told and people are a little more aware. 324 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 3: So that line of like, well, i'm a doctor, It's okay, 325 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 3: I'm a doctor, because he said that, like oh yeah, 326 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 3: like i'm a doctor. You have to see naked bodies 327 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 3: all the time. Like that's like his ankle and like 328 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 3: I remember him being on the pulpit talking about that. 329 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 3: I don't remember what the context was, but I'm like 330 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 3: he was just dropping seeds. 331 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 4: Mm hmm, making you feel like he's your father figure, 332 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 4: like it's fine. Yeah. 333 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 2: Even in the documentary, there's a sermon that was played 334 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 2: that he says that he's like ooh ba, good bodies, 335 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 2: big deal, Like he's just so casually talking about it, 336 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 2: like I'm a doctor who cares, and so again I echo, Amanda, 337 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 2: just your strength for coming forward. I think anyone that's 338 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 2: ever experienced something like that, it's not an easy conversation 339 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 2: to have. Is there anything that we haven't shared that 340 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 2: you're like, man, they should be talking more about this 341 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 2: or this person. 342 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 4: I think what I want to share it is just 343 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 4: like you have to separate Robert from like actual Christianity. 344 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,719 Speaker 4: A lot of times people will leave the situation and 345 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 4: they'll be so angry at what happened to them and God. 346 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 4: But that's kind of like something that my husband and 347 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 4: I had to realize is like people will fail you 348 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 4: all the time. Sorry, but God, God will not fail you. 349 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 4: And there is a process that you go through. You 350 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 4: have to learn to rest again. You know, it's hard 351 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:06,439 Speaker 4: because like my husband grew up Catholic and he was 352 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 4: so mad. 353 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: When we left, just thinking like this kind of stuff 354 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: is why people leave the church, why they don't trust God. 355 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: You know, the whole deprogramming that you're gonna go through 356 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: after is you really need to read the Bible for yourself. 357 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: That's why we were deceived because we didn't know what 358 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: it said and so when somebody came to you with 359 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: a little bit of truth and other his own weird ideas, 360 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: it's easy to get deceive. But what we took out 361 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: of it was we're never ever gonna put someone on 362 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: a pedestal and treat them like God. You know, he's 363 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: a wolf in sheep's clothing, you know. And it's actually 364 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: a lot more common than I thought. Prior to everything 365 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: blowing up with him, I just thought it was kind 366 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: of like a lost cause, and I didn't talk a 367 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: lot about it to people. But once it started getting 368 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: out in the open, we started talking. I started sharing 369 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,719 Speaker 1: with people, and actually a lot of people based said, oh, 370 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: I've been through something similar, Like I was at a 371 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: church and this was kind of happening. Maybe it wasn't 372 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 1: to the extent that she kind of did it, but 373 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: it is happening. And it's also you don't even have 374 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: to be in a church. Like I have a friend 375 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: who just came out of a relationship with a friend 376 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: that was like totally manipulating her. And because what we've 377 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: been through, because of those signs I was seeing, it 378 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: kind of helped her like say, hey, look like this 379 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: is happening, and so this is a thing. 380 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 2: So common, which is really unfortunate, and it's masked in 381 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,719 Speaker 2: all different ways in relationships. And if people can find 382 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 2: those similarities and start to piece those things together and 383 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 2: implement them into their own lives, I mean it's worth something. 384 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 2: When we returned the conclusion to our conversation with Amanda, 385 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 2: this is forgive me for I have followed. 386 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 3: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's 387 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,479 Speaker 3: the conclusion of our conversation with Amanda. 388 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 2: Before we wrap things up by I do want to 389 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 2: just go back to one thing that you mentioned that 390 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 2: I'm just curious about. You said that when you and 391 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 2: your husband left the church that you for about a 392 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 2: year were under Catherine. What was that transition like or 393 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 2: what was it really? 394 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 3: So? 395 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 4: I think what happened was Catherine lived off of all 396 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,360 Speaker 4: of our paychecks, right, Catherine and Robert. That's how they lived. 397 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 4: They didn't make any money other than like us giving 398 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 4: them our money. A lot of us were real estate 399 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 4: agents for seven ms. So we left. But then we 400 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 4: had a meeting and we're like, well, let's start a 401 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 4: new real estate company. It was kind of like the 402 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 4: same thing that we're doing. And she kind of maybe 403 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 4: with a little more freedom, but she still held our checkbooks. 404 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 4: Like I would be doing real estate, but I would 405 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 4: not get any commission. I would get like a check 406 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 4: every two weeks. So I guess we just didn't realize 407 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 4: at the time that we were still kind of being 408 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 4: taken advantage of. And two of my friends, two of 409 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 4: the girls who were there at the two branched off. 410 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 4: I guess they kind of realized it, and they said 411 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 4: this is not right, like we need to leave Catherine, 412 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 4: And one of the girls basically threatened Catherine and said, like, 413 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 4: I know too much, So if you don't let everybody go, 414 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 4: I'm gonna tell on you. So I don't know if 415 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 4: it was like this, Khalia when you were there, But 416 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 4: our names weren't attached to the stuff we had, and 417 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,360 Speaker 4: so we all didn't really own a car or anything 418 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 4: because we were, you know, driving other people's stuff. And 419 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,719 Speaker 4: so I remember, I'm really grateful for these two girls 420 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 4: who told Catherine to do that. So if we had 421 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 4: any debt, they said, you need to pay off their 422 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 4: debt because we weren't making the debt anyways. They were 423 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 4: in charge of our finances, so they had to pay 424 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 4: off our debt. And give everyone a car when we left, 425 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 4: and so Catherine did it, and I remember we're in 426 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 4: her house and she was like saying goodbye, crying, and 427 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 4: her daughters didn't understand why it was such a big 428 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 4: deal for her that we were all leaving. They're kind 429 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 4: of thinking, why, why do you need them, And then 430 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 4: one of the daughters realized, it's because we are her livelihood. 431 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 4: This is how she is living, thriving. Catherine would get 432 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 4: like the best make up, the best clothes, the best car, 433 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 4: and her kids everyone would get like the best. And 434 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 4: we were living off of nothing, which we didn't mind 435 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 4: doing because I really thought that the money that we 436 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 4: were geting was going to like missions or something, and 437 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 4: then realizing later that, oh my gosh, they were just 438 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 4: using it for themselves, like living their life. And I 439 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 4: see Robert renting huge, multi million dollar places. It's insane. 440 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 4: So that was it. We all just went our separate 441 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 4: ways and didn't look back. 442 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 3: I'm so proud of you guys for being able to 443 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 3: stand up and stand your ground and make those demands 444 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 3: and get those demands met, because it's like the least 445 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 3: she could do after all of the years and years 446 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 3: of abuse and yeah, whatever she did know or allowed 447 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 3: to happen. 448 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks, It wasn't me. It was that it was 449 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 4: one of the girls who were there, two of them, Like, 450 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 4: it wasn't me. Like I didn't. I didn't have the 451 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 4: wherewithal our understanding to like say that at the time. 452 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 4: So I'm really grateful because, you know, at least we 453 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 4: had something when we left, we had. 454 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 3: I do have one last question. Is there anything that 455 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 3: you would want to say to the people that are 456 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 3: still in that you know, that are still under Robert. 457 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:15,679 Speaker 3: I don't know. 458 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 4: I just apologize, like especially to Chrissy, that's my friend 459 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 4: from high school. I brought Chrissy to Chakaina. I wish 460 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 4: that day that somebody had called me like, hey, come 461 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 4: out and let's go to Catherine that night. I wish 462 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 4: I would have grabbed Chrissy, like, but I didn't. I 463 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 4: don't know. That's a regret that I have that I 464 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 4: didn't try harder to get people out that night. I 465 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 4: did talk to Christy, we did meet back in twenty 466 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 4: seventeen or something like that, but she wasn't listening. Yeah, 467 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 4: and so I guess I could say, Hey, I'm here 468 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 4: and we're here to talk to you and to walk 469 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 4: you through this. There's life outside of Chicaina, And I mean, 470 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 4: it definitely feels like you come out of jail, to 471 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 4: be honest, because you're so you to just following orders 472 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 4: and not making decisions on your own. I remember when 473 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 4: I came out, like the actual sunlight would like hurt 474 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 4: my eyes because I was so used to like just 475 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 4: working in the office. But I will say, like when 476 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 4: I was there, before I knew something was wrong, I 477 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 4: was living my best life. And I just wonder if 478 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 4: they might be okay right now because they don't know 479 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 4: all the bad stuff And it really is until that 480 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 4: your eyes are open that it hits you, and that's 481 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 4: when it's going to be hard for them. Maybe say 482 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 4: things to them like is he hurting you? Is he 483 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 4: touching you inappropriately? Is he getting in between you or 484 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 4: husband and you? Is he asking you to do things 485 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 4: you're not comfortable with? Like those kind of questions. That's 486 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 4: the kind of thing that woke me up. 487 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 2: We'd like to thank Amanda for this truly enlightening conversation. 488 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 2: Her journey of resilience and discovery sheds light on the 489 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 2: complexities of faith and community, as well as the challenges 490 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 2: of navigating manipulative environments. 491 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 3: We hope her insights on deprogramming and protecting oneself resonate 492 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 3: with those who might be facing similar situations. We truly 493 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 3: wish her and her family the very best on their 494 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 3: healing journey. 495 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: If you found this conversation valuable, please subscribe, rate, and 496 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 2: leave a review. Your support helps reach more listeners and 497 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 2: share these important stories. 498 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 3: This has been Forgive Me For I Have Followed. We'll 499 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 3: be back next week. Forgive Me For I Have Followed 500 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 3: is a production from wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's 501 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 3: Michael Tore podcast Network, hosted by me, Kalia Gray, he 502 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 3: Me Jess Cassavetto. Forgive Me For I Have Followed is 503 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 3: produced by Aaron Burlson and Sophie Spencer Zabos. 504 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Kalia Gray, myself, Wilmar Balderama, Leo Klem, 505 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 2: and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound. 506 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 3: This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original 507 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 3: music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts 508 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 3: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 509 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:00,439 Speaker 3: you listen to your favorite shows. 510 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 2: See you next week, See you next week.