WEBVTT - Inside Inside ETFs 2020: What the ETF Industry is Talking About 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:13.360 Welcome a trilliance. I'm Joel Webber and Eric. Every January, 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:15.800 I stay here in New York words really cold, and 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:23.079 you get to go to a warm, sunny place called Yeah. 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:25.239 I mean, I bear. I never see the sun. I'm 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:28.200 always inside, nerding out. It's a whirlwind of an event. 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:31.320 So hence my voice. I feel fine, but my voice 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:33.720 is going because I was just talking so much, and 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:36.640 I'm a little worn out and spent between the panels 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:39.519 and the networking and the parties and but yeah, it 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:41.720 was great. Um, but there's no sun to be had, 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:44.280 at least for from my experience. I don't feel sorry 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:46.680 for you, and but I do feel stright for myself 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:48.879 because I've had to hear you talk about this so 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:52.000 many times. Listen, next year we should go and set 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:54.000 up a booth and just do the show. Why did 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:56.680 we do that this year? Yeah, we got a plan ahead. 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:57.840 We well do. I think we brought up in like 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:00.120 Descenter was just too late. I'm gonna do it. Got 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:01.520 a lot of good feedback. A lot of people up 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:03.240 and say, oh man, I love the podcast, said you 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:05.040 know it's um, it's come up. I don't know, maybe 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:06.520 half a dozen people come up and said that. So 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:08.920 that's good. But in addition to not wanting to hear 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:11.920 from you, we actually have new people who went to 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:14.240 the conference this year and they're going to come on 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:16.440 the show and talk to us about what it was 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:19.280 like to be a freshman there. Yeah, this might be 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:24.640 my tenth year, so I'm probably a little jaded. Well, 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:26.040 I mean, the first year I went, I think it 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:28.000 was just me and Chris Condon. Then I went a 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:30.200 couple of years, I was the only person there from Bloomberg, 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.120 and then data started joining the news and this year 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:35.520 our index team was there with like maybe ten people, 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:39.399 so there was probably twenty Bloomberg people at the event 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:44.240 all told. So it's definitely become like Fort Lauderdale Bureau. Yeah, 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:47.840 it's actually technically in Hollywood, and as you drive up, 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:49.920 there's a Hollywood Boulevard and I'm just like, it's just 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:55.440 not different, totally different. So joining us today on Trillions 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:58.400 first time for both Katie Greifeld, who's a reporter with 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:03.760 Bloomberg News, as well as Claire Valentine, this time on 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:09.160 Trillian Inside Inside et f S Part three. Katie, Claire, 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:13.680 Welcome to Trillions. What's your assessment should I actually go 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:16.760 there next year? Oh yeah. Even if you don't have 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:18.320 time to go to the beach, you can at least 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:20.920 look out on the water, so which is sort of 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:24.600 depressing through glass windows. Yeah, yeah, I agree. It's a 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:27.080 nice view, but there's a depressing element to it. You guys, 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:29.400 get out of outside at all or not much. I 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:31.160 did a little bit. I sat on the beach in 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.320 a lunch. Katie went for a run. I did go 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:34.880 for a run. It was at six thirty in the 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:37.880 morning though, that's when the five K fund run was held, 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:40.400 and uh, you could see the beach. It was just 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:44.040 dark and there's celebrity sort of. There was a celebrity, 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:46.920 Ryan Hall. Uh. If you don't know, he's big in 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.320 my world because I'm a runner. But he he was 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:51.959 a former big time runner marathon former big time runner 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:55.120 retired now, but you might know him because he ran 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.640 a sub two oh five marathon, which is which is 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:01.359 very fast at the ball some marathon, so that was 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:05.320 a big deal. There's some hills there and I think 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:07.600 he still holds the half marathon record for the US, 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:09.560 so he's a big deal. I didn't know he was 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:11.840 going to be there, so that woke me up and 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:14.680 James and my team was Jazz. He got a picture 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:16.960 with him. It was like he met Bob Dylan or something. 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:18.919 I mean, it was like a major deal for him. 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:21.440 I never heard of the guy I run, but I'm not. 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:24.040 I'm not in the marathon circuit. But um that's also running. 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:25.400 I want to I want to video of that. I 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:27.440 think it'll be pretty boring for you, but I'll send 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:29.600 you one. Okay, alright, I'll do that for you. Okay. 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:33.600 So our stick with Inside ETF is that we give 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.440 you a recorder and you go talk to people. Yeah, 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:38.600 if I'm talking to somebody and I feel like they 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:40.800 say something that's you know, kind of cool, representative of 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.240 a bigger theme, I'll just get forty seconds from them, 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:46.000 and when we can run through the clips, who's first, 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:48.560 first up? And I'm guessing you guys will agree with 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:51.920 me that active, non transparent or aunts was probably the 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.600 biggest topic. If there was a theme that was threaded 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:55.920 through a lot of this, which we've talked about a 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:57.720 few times on Trillions we have. We did a whole 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:01.240 show with Dan McCabe, who's the Presidian uh CEO, which 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:02.560 you should go back and listen if you want a 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:04.320 primer on what this is, because we think this is 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:06.400 a theme for the year, like this is gonna be 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:09.600 a huge one. Yeah, all these like fifteen trillion dollars 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:11.480 worth of active mutual funds are trying to figure out 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:12.840 a way to do the e t F and this 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:14.880 is a way to do it without showing their holdings 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:16.880 every day. So it's kind of like having their cake 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:18.840 and needed to the question is is their demand. So 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:22.200 the first guy we interviewed was Daniel Shapiro from Serule. 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.360 Now Cerule has done a study that basically found that 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:27.560 et F fishers like these things are gonna bomb, which 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.159 is I'm in that camp pretty much. Some other people 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:32.360 think they're going to be successful. But Daniel said he 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:34.560 saw some things that make him more optimistic, and so 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:38.520 I asked him about that. We gave them until so 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.640 more than five years out, five years, less than ten billion. 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:48.600 Half of their respondents in pessimistic. Why I think we 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:50.880 we ourselves highlighted a number of challenges in the products 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:55.800 would face. We thought that the as managers the conflicted 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.359 and offering their best products into this particular rapper, we 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:01.599 thought that they wouldn't want to launch the right products 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:04.800 right away. They might start with something smaller, and as 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:08.360 we've seen the new filings from Fidelity, from tyrold Price, 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:11.599 it seems that there's a lot of promise. They're willing 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:15.000 to let some of their best, some of their largest 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:17.800 offerings into the E t F rapper, which makes us 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:22.320 more optimistic. What he's basically saying is that we now 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:25.120 see the filings coming in for what of these mutual 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:27.680 funds funds they're going to actually try to convert into 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:30.760 this new structure. And he was saying that, like he thought, 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.760 maybe they'd take their mediocre or crappy funds and just 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:35.839 try to get something going with them on this, but 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:37.760 he found that some of the funds they're going to 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.800 launch were some of their better funds, not all of them, 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:43.200 and that gave him some hope. They're not only are 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:45.800 you new to inside E t F, you're new to 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:49.400 E t F S cross Asset reporter. Now what do 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:53.200 you what do you make of this a moment? Well, definitely, 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:55.440 everyone that I talked to agreed this was the theme 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:58.839 of the conference is what everyone's talking about. But I 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.279 get to talk to anyone but sides people trying to 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:04.240 issue these that really agreed they're going to take off. 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.040 I think there's a lot of skepticism about are these 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:10.920 going to gather assets? And talking with Ryan Sullivan from 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:14.120 Brown Brother's Hairman, we both agreed people are just kind 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:15.920 of talking in circles at this point. We have to 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:19.280 wait until these launch and sort of see what happens. Katie, 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:21.880 what do you think, Well, it's interesting to that point 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:25.480 that perhaps people won't want to offer their best strategies 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:28.560 and an et f rapper. We were talking to UM 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:31.640 Greg Friedman at Fidelity and he said that the investors 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:34.800 are really rapper agnostic, you know it just they want 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:37.160 the best strategy, They want the best return that they 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:39.560 can get, you know, the best price. So that was 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:43.920 kind of interesting and to this broader debate. It was interesting. 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:48.160 On Greg Friedman's panel UM on Active Non Transparens on Tuesday, 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.880 there was this sort of spar that broke out between 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.799 Fidelity and then Doug Jones from the New York Stock 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:59.039 Exchange over whether this would herald the death of a 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:02.440 mutual fund. But declares point, you know, we've heard from 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:05.839 a lot of optimistic issuers, but people are really looking 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:07.760 to see whether they hold water. Did the fight have 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:11.360 to get broken up? This is two people in suits 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:13.400 like talking, even a little spark. I mean, some of 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:15.280 these panels can be very boring people, but this is 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:17.080 actually I thought that was one of the better ones, 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:19.280 absolutely because they were taking subtle shots at each other. 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:22.200 Because they're all offering different rappers and trying to appeal. 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:24.960 They were all competitors, and we kept coming back to it. 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:27.680 The moderator did step in, but there was a point 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:29.240 there where it was just the two of them talking. 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:32.040 The bigger problem is even if you launch your best 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:34.720 fund like the Tiro blue Chip, so far it looks 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:36.600 like the price is gonna be fifty to sixty basis 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:39.720 points um. So that's I guess, a decent deal if 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:42.160 you're a mutual fund investor. But for eat F people, 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:43.960 I mean they want everything below twenty bits. To me, 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:46.720 that's the single biggest issue. And I guess we'll see 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:49.000 in large cape equity is where they're going to launch 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:50.840 the first ones, and that seems to be the area 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.720 that people want active The least active flows tend to 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:55.840 be a little stronger and fixed income and an international 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:58.720 and emerging markets where there's more opportunity small caps. So 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:02.440 um yeah, I know I'm interested, um, just like everybody else. 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:04.720 And um, as you know, Todd at Rosen Bluth and 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:08.160 I have another big bet, which is how much will 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:09.400 they have at the end of the year. Ten billion 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:11.600 is the over under. I have the under, and if 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:14.760 I win this time, I'm ordering Saki next. Next up, 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:16.920 we have former Congress and Barney Frank. So you do 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:20.120 sometimes get some celebrities here, hence Ryan Hall. But Barney 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:22.600 Frank wasn't there just to talk like hype people up 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:24.680 or just be a celebrity. He's there to Actually he's 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:26.680 on the board of a new l g B t 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:30.760 q UM index that will be an et F very soon. 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:33.040 So we asked him what he was being in. You 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:35.719 know why he was involved with us for many is 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:38.199 when I first kind of involved with gay lights in 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:41.680 nineteen seventy two, we won the defension. We were fighting 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:44.959 against bad things. We've reached a point now where for 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:47.280 millions of us to we have in much of the country, 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:51.599 we can start going after good things based on a sexuality. 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:55.040 That is, we're no longer trying to defend ourselves against bigotry. 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:58.120 In most cases, we want now to go forward in 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.400 Vanshall legitimate interest in a way that's constructive. And that's 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:06.160 and he can't now Before we dig into that, I 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:08.040 got a part two to this, which is Billy Bean, 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:12.160 who is a former professional baseball player who came out. 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:16.120 Billy Bean, No, it's actually saying I asked him. He's like, 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.400 it's very confusing. I know different. Billy Bean a player 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.319 he played on the Detroit Tigers, I believe, with Alan 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:25.520 trammell Um, and he was he actually had some cool 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:27.599 stories about playing with Tony Gwynn and least players I 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:30.560 used to baseball cars of anyway, different topic. He was 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.400 talking about being a major league baseball player and being 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:35.679 in the closet and then coming out and that's part 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:37.400 of what got him involved with this as well. And 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:40.200 it's a really heartfelt story. Here we go. And I 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:42.160 made the big leagues when I was twenty one, and 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:43.800 so you don't make the big leagues unless yere a 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:48.199 baseball player. And you know, there was no Internet, and 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:52.479 and uh, you know, I didn't quite understand my sexual orientation. 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.320 And I got married very young and and tried to 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:59.720 be everything to everyone. And as I got a little older, 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:01.520 and was into big leagues for a little bit. Um, 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.480 I started to become more self aware and and I 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.280 met somebody and I left my marriage and and that 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:11.920 person died, uh tragically, very young. Um, the night before 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:13.920 what was my last season in the big leagues. And 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:17.240 instead of talking to my family or my roommate was 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:19.760 Brad Osma's who's been a big league manager, played eighteen 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:23.800 years in big leagues. Um, it just seemed like from 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:26.600 the information that I had in my life that someone 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:28.880 like me didn't belong in baseball. And and I just 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:33.680 I just stopped playing and with no explanation for anybody, 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:38.880 didn't show up for spring training the next year, heavy right, 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.960 And so I was not expecting that. Yeah, no, look, 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:44.319 this is why I played both of those because there's this, 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:46.600 there's the Barney Frank who else has a real story 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:49.200 in this? But when you dig into these small e 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:52.520 t F s, there are some real interesting stories and 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:55.520 people who really care. So sometimes these small ets get 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:58.320 blown off. But even the Whiskey ETF had an interesting 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:00.960 story about this guy in Lexington, Kentucky. Um, and I 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:04.120 find that's where the passion is. What was Billy's et 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.040 F connection. So Barney's on that board, so is he, 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:09.679 and so is Martina and Evratalova. So this is an 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:11.400 index now, but it should be an ETF soon. It'll 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:13.680 be interesting if against traction, because there was one called 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:16.000 Pride pr I D but it didn't really take off, 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:19.120 although someone pushed back and said, you know, this was 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.120 UBS trying to sort of like co op this movement. 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:24.680 This is from the movement. One thing that I find 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.800 interesting about that is like probably two people who had 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:30.160 no idea about E T F and then all of 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:33.199 a sudden they end up in inside et F in Florida, 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:35.880 kind of like our guests. Uh, did you guys meet 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:39.520 anybody else like this? I did not, but I think 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:41.800 it really speaks to the idea of this field is 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:43.440 so crowded with E TF and how are you going 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:45.600 to stand out? And I wrote an article about this 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:47.840 in some of the ways that people are trying to 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:51.720 differentiate themselves, and I think it sort of combines both 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:53.640 like E. S G and kind of wanting to do 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.600 good but also wanted to compete with the big players, 0:11:57.200 --> 0:11:59.559 and how do you do that you make yourself unique? Katie, 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:01.840 how much s G talk was there? There was so 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:04.200 much E s G talk. We've heard so much about 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:07.160 this in the past three weeks, and it was it 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.640 was interesting. You know, everyone says it's here to say, 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:13.200 everyone's excited about it, wants to get on board. Well 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:15.280 I was gonna say, no, one knows how to define it. 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:17.840 And it almost feels like, you know, past the potato 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:20.760 because we've asked several people, several issuers, how are you 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.760 defining this? And they are really relying on third parties 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:27.040 at this point. So I'm not I just worried about 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:29.440 the investor. I worry this is like active mutual funds 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:32.000 Part two because, like Matt Hogan and the best new 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:34.720 ETF pundit SmackDown argued for s USL, which is the 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:36.320 I shares E s G, it's I think it might 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.520 be the largest E s G fund bar none. Guess 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:44.880 what's not not in it? Apple, Facebook, Netflix, Amazon, Berkshire, 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:48.199 JP Morgan. I mean, these are the leaders of their industries. 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:51.200 It's like a car without an engine, and maybe those 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:53.719 stocks will actually fall because of their E s G 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.320 in the future and this this thing outperforms, But I 0:12:57.320 --> 0:12:59.400 don't know. Those are some heavy duty companies, You're not 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:01.200 there aren't in there and people are buying this and 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.160 not knowing that. I think they're going to be surprised 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:05.520 if they buy it. Know it fine, but I just 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.400 worry that they're going to be disappointed if it underperforms. 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.320 Electric cars don't have engines. That's true, there is a 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:13.160 metaphor there. Yeah, maybe that that's a good way to 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:15.000 sell it, but I wouldn't buy it. By the way, 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:17.880 when I write about this, I get them publicly people 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:20.120 that yeah, you're you know what about this and this, 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:22.360 But I'll get a lot of messages offline, like and 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:24.320 at the conference, I wrote this article about this, and 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:26.840 people were like, you're spot on. I can't say anything 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:29.160 to agree with you publicly, but I agree. I think 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:32.000 people um are sort of leaning towards this idea of 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:35.080 an E S G tilt instead of just a flat 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:37.120 out E s G. And people that I talked with 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:39.480 said that, you know, because there's a question of how 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:41.800 do you define it, you can sort of define it 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.319 in a way that's like E S G light almost, 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:46.640 and that might have more success that if If people 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:48.040 are going to use it as a like a five 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.600 percent allocation on top of their equities, that's fine. That 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:52.800 then it becomes some like a theme. But then are 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:54.760 you really cleaning up your portfolio because the rest of 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.640 your portfolio still owns those companies like ex On and whatnot. 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:00.440 So that to me, a lot of the says, I 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:05.120 just worry it's being sold, like the five dollar organic avocado. 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:07.640 It's being sold, so you feel like you're doing something, 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.319 but it's really you're kind of getting hosed a little. Well, 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:12.280 the question I asked a bunch of people at this 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.559 conference was whether this E S G enthusiasm is really 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:20.040 a bowl market phenomenon. You know, when everything is rallying, 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:22.320 you kind of have the luxury of being able to 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.480 invest along your values. But when we actually do hit 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.200 a downturn, if and when you know, are people going 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.960 to have that luxury of choice? And so far, you know, 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:35.200 no one wanted to disagree with the buzzword of the week, 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:38.960 but um, the point that Phil McIntosh at NASTACK said 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:41.840 was it's going to depend on whether the returns are 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.240 actually better in E S G. And there's been a 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.800 lot of conflicting research on that. So it might rest 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:48.680 on that if you believe E s G is a 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.280 factor that we'll have to find alpha um. By all 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:53.840 means you can just drop a little on your portfolio. 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:56.520 But if you are looking to clean up your portfolio, 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:58.280 those are the people I worry about. Because you're gonna 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.560 sell your Vanguard five hundred for this, just be careful, 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:03.400 know what you're owning. UM. And I think that's a 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:05.920 big issue. And ms c I, the head of mbsc I, 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:09.360 came out recently and said if you don't something like, 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:12.120 if you don't do this, your you will dramatically underperform. 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.240 I find that to be very dangerous talk. I just 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.000 think that's irresponsible to be honest. UM. I think it's 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.920 just better to sort of like offer caveats here and 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:23.720 be honest about the proposition, because you don't want someone 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.480 to wake up and trail the market by and be like, 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:28.360 you know, why did I do this and get angry 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.920 about it? Who'd you talk to you next? So, while 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.480 I'm a skeptic, there's someone I think a little further 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:35.640 to the right of me, which is the MAGA guy. 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.160 There's an et F with the tigger Maga Hal Lambert. 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:41.760 It leans towards companies with that donate or have GOP 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:44.800 values or donate to GOP. I believe did a great 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:47.360 Brillions episode with him before. Yeah, we did a whole 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:49.760 episode with him and he's a really nice guy. He 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.000 was talking about Larry Fink's Climate letter and uh, he 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.320 offered some sort of like pushback on that, and here 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:59.000 he is like, my biggest problem with the s G 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.560 is that it's it's all just soft issues, so it's 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.600 very relative. There's no real hard evidence on anything, so 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:08.800 it's opinionated, and it's being driven by the U N 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:11.720 out of out of Europe, and now they're forcing US 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:15.120 companies to adopt policies and it's basically policies that they 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:18.240 can't get past legislatively by the left, and so they're 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:20.280 trying to basically front end that and go to the 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:22.480 corporations and force this on them. So if you look 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:24.800 at what like Bratt black Rock is doing, Larry Fink, 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:26.520 you know they have now come out and said everything 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:28.920 is gonna be sustainable in what they're doing. Well, you 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:30.520 know what, what does that due to clients that don't 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:32.400 have that same view. And by the way, if you 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.360 look at black Rock and you look at you know, 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:38.280 what they're doing with their own company. You know, black 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:40.480 Rock has jets, they have their own private jets and 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:42.920 and uh whatever, I'm fine with jets. The other thing 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:46.160 they're doing, though, is they're leasing those jets out when 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:48.480 they're not using them. So when you talk about global 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:50.720 warming and climate change and you're worried about all that, 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:52.880 and you're gonna least jets out to make a few 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:56.360 extra thousand dollars to put carbon in the atmosphere, is 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:59.440 that really s G friendly or they really SG focused, 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:04.040 or they STUF doing it for marketing. Hey, no one 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:05.879 wants to say what he said, but there's some truth 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:07.560 to that, and there is a lot of hypocrisy and 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:09.720 it needs to be said. And I think you can 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:12.520 identify hypocrisy and still be for the movement to fight 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:15.920 climate change. Emitting carbon is emitting carbon. I think everybody 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:19.520 has to contribute. That's not unfair, is it. No? I 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:21.760 mean my take is that even if it is PR, 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:25.960 that's sort of better than nothing. It's a movement forward, 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.240 it's a step forward. And I agree I'm talking talking 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:31.880 about I just think the some of the pressure should 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:34.480 be punched up right now. I feel like it's all 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:36.919 about how are the people gonna like change? But what 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:39.679 about the elite who who just seemed to be the 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.760 biggest carbon emitter is out there. There's just not that 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:44.600 much pressure on them. It's weird. I didn't see one 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.159 Davos article that really focused on that. How is MAGAT 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:49.920 performed MAGAT and not having a good run. It's a 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:54.360 fifteen point one percent since launching and smps like thirty three, 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:57.920 so it's basically half now MAGGO I think leans towards 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:01.280 energy and industrial stock. Yeah, it's a sector tilt away 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:03.520 from a look. Mega to me is is the anti 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:05.879 E s G sector wise. You get more energy and 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:09.520 industrials and almost no tech. So if tech falls out 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:11.359 of BED, I a would say, if you think if 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.840 you're anti high beta and growth and tech and you 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:16.520 think those you know, the fang type names are going 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:19.399 to fall out of BED, mag is not a bad play, 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:22.320 even if you disagree. It's sort of like an anti tech, 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:25.920 energy industrial heavy kind of ETF. We asked Black Rock 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:29.040 about halse comments and it responded that it offsets travel 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:33.080 related emissions by retiring carbon credits and also reduced air 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:43.359 travel per employee. As of you're in okay, we have 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.680 some more names on your list. Who's next next is 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.479 Dan Draper from Investco. And I think another issue was, 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:53.920 you know, costed following everybody wants free trading. Fility just 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.879 announced fractional shares after announcing free trading. He was talking 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.240