WEBVTT - Steph Jagger 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.400 Holy Human with Leanne Rhymes is a production of I 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:13.160 Heart Radio. Welcome my friends to this very special episode 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:16.479 of Holy Human. I mean they are all very special 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:18.360 to me, but this one is one of my favorites, 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:22.720 and I say that with every new episode. Writer Steph 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:25.800 Jagger burst onto the literary scene with her adventurous two 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:29.800 thousand and seventeen memoir Unbound, a story of snow and 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:33.680 self discovery. In her latest work, Everything Left to Remember 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:37.159 My Mother, Our Memories and a Journey through the Rocky Mountains, 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:40.880 she navigates the emotionally rocky landscape of her mother's battle 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:45.960 with Alzheimer's disease. Today, Steph joins me for a wide ranging, 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:52.080 intimate and vulnerable conversation about her mother, mother, Earth, female archetypes, 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:55.880 and so much more on this very special episode of 0:00:55.920 --> 0:01:26.080 Holy Humane. Now, before we start, always just reading it 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:29.240 on your website, just about you, and I love that 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:36.040 you said I'm scared often I do we get comfortable? 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:38.559 They're right, I don't know. I'm still trying to figure 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:42.360 that out. I'm always scared going into interviews, and especially 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:44.399 with your book, because there's so many things that are 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:47.280 very specific that I wanted to touch on and things 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:51.880 that you've written that were so incredibly poetic and stunning. 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:55.400 It's such a beautiful book. So thank you for joining 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.880 me on this podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:04.960 I'm really deeply honored to kind of co create something. Yeah. Absolutely, 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:08.200 I love that both of your books, Everything Left to 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:13.720 Remember and Unbound are both about the adventurous journey. You know, 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:17.920 I travel all the time, of course, and I just wondered, 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:21.120 what do you think it is about travel that helps 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:27.360 us discover ourselves? I think for me, starting with a 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:30.079 very early travel that I did kind of right out 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:36.600 of university, really, um, I discovered that I was no 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.800 one but me. There was no role to play other 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:42.280 than me. You know when you travel, and a lot 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:45.040 of traveling I did was traveling on my own. And 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:49.399 so I wasn't someone's sister. I wasn't someone's daughter. I 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:51.600 wasn't I mean, I grew up in a place that 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:54.040 my grandparents went to the same high school that my 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:58.440 parents went to that I went to. So so I 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:03.360 wasn't anyone granddaughter or little sister, etcetera, which allowed me 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:08.399 to then I think, practice showing up as me as 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:12.640 as authentically me without having to fulfill those roles, and 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:14.760 I think I was. You know, some of the people 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:17.520 that I've met on my travels have been people that 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:21.239 have had sustained relationships with over time because I think 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:26.280 they probably had a clearer sense of who I was, 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.240 just based on me being made, me feeling the freedom 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:33.640 to show up as you know, a naive traveler in 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.680 the world. I love that I have never had that 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:39.880 experience of travel. My travel has been very, very different. 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:42.320 When you say that you get to basically be more 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:46.400 of yourself and you could be whoever you want to be, really, 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.320 you know, and for me it's been so interesting because 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:53.720 I'm showing up as me or what people it's probably 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.600 it's probably completely so interesting. I love hearing that, though 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:00.320 maybe I just need to put on a wig and 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:06.560 completely different. I think some of it is is maybe 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:11.280 there's a broader question of travel or not. Where is 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:15.080 it that I feel I have the deepest access to 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:18.560 my own internal world and can kind of like pull 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:22.920 that forward, and and that maybe travel for some people 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.640 that maybe inside of their families, for other people that 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:30.280 maybe in in kind of more private inner sanctums for others, 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:32.600 And I think that's the kind of largest question is 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:34.800 where did I feel as though I was encouraged to 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:40.600 access a larger internal landscape and kind of bring that forward. Yeah? 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:45.080 Absolutely for me, that is for me, that's nature. Like yeah, 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:47.520 And I know you talk a lot about nature. In fact, 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:49.240 I'm going to just jump to this question because I 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:53.440 one of the things that I um, one of the 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:55.800 things that I've been exploring is more nature and being 0:04:55.880 --> 0:05:00.839 in tune with animals and just exploring what that brings 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:05.400 out in me. But I find myself so resistant to it. Um. 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:07.920 And in your book you said the truth meets you 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.560 in nature, which is why it's sometimes hardest to go, 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:16.880 which like brings me to tears. I I just wondered 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:19.520 if you had any words of wisdom on the resistance 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:23.120 to her, because I feel like there's some resistance there 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:27.800 for me. Yeah, I think, um, certainly that line, like 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:29.760 the truth meets either there's there's probably a couple of 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:32.560 things I would think about. Number one would be I 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.039 think it is hard sometimes for us to go because 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:39.839 nature can't be anything other than it is. A cedar 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:42.240 tree can't one day wake up and be like you 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:43.760 know what, I feel like I need to like put 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:45.320 on a bit of a mask this morning and like 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:47.400 play the role of an alder like it just can't 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:50.520 do that. Um. Really the only you know, raven or 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:53.520 maybe the only exception they can throw their voice, um. 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:56.440 But outside of that, you know, I think I think 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.599 one of the most confronting things is we're not used 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:02.119 to that as humans, as as walking up to another 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:05.440 human being and kind of going, this is exactly the 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:09.040 essence of who this person is, and they can't change it, 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:11.280 and they can't mask it, and they can't be something 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:13.800 they're not, and they can't pretend and they can't. So 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:16.000 I think it's really confronting sometimes to go into nature, 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:19.280 to go it is going to show me its rawest, 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:23.960 truest identity and essence, and it's going to ask me 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:26.599 to do the same. And there's very very few places 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:30.520 that were asked to do that. In fact, most often 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.680 were asked to do the opposite, Like most often were like, 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:35.719 could you just play this role for me? You know, 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:38.040 I'd really prefer that if you just play this role 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:40.360 for me. So I think that's confronting. I think the 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:45.359 other part of nature and wilderness that is confronting, and 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.440 I think especially so for women, is you know, we've 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:52.280 been taught that nature is a wild, scary, dark place, 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:56.760 and and that things there are feral and untamed, and 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:00.000 there's beasts in the woods, etcetera, and so we shouldn't 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.320 go there. And I think that's just a direct example 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:06.240 of what we've been told about our own bodies. Oh yeah, 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:10.640 I was thinking our nature, our nature is that's exactly 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.840 what it's been, that's right. And so I think actually 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:22.000 what we're more scared of is meeting the kind of internal, feral, messy, wild, 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:25.840 kind of howling parts of ourselves that we've been told 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:30.480 we have to tame. And so when we go into 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:34.400 nature and again we're kind of confronted by that, I 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.320 think it's easy for us to mask and say that's 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:41.240 the scary thing, that external thing, when in fact, I 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:44.360 think it's our own interiority that we haven't been encouraged 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:49.280 to explore and trespassed. Like it feels like trespassing, which 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:52.440 is ridiculous, right, because it's our own bodies and our 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:55.880 own selves. And I think that's you know, one of 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:58.520 the reasons that nature has been so so so powerful 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:00.720 for me is kind of to go am I scared 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:03.400 of that noise or am I scared of the feeling 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:05.640 it brings up inside of my body that I am 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:08.640 so deeply uncomfortable? Why and why is it that I'm 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:13.560 so deeply uncomfortable with feelings in my body? Yeah? Yeah, 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:16.280 when I go into nature, even if it's just during 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:20.360 the daytime, like out in our backyard, I find that 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.280 that's where I'm not with my phone, I'm not with anything, 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:25.840 and it's I think it is. I think you're right. 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:28.640 It brings up whatever comes up at that moment in time. 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:34.160 Um can be really confronting and uncomfortable because I'm I'm 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:38.840 just being with nature and and my own nature, and 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:42.520 that can be Yeah. Sometimes I just sometimes we all 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:45.280 want to run away from that, but it is, it's 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:48.559 it's a it's a beautiful dance. Thank you for that. 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.000 That really jumped out at me, because I know sometimes 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:53.120 it's hard for me to just get myself outside and 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:57.960 just be with ultimately me. Yes, that that's exactly it. 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:00.320 I mean, it's like, are we scared of a nature 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:03.520 out there? Are we scared of our human nature? You know, 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:06.120 that's a big that's always been, you know, a big 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:08.440 question for me, and I think you know, to use 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:11.240 nature as a guide, a guide for that you know. 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:15.360 You also referred to um, you know in your question 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:19.000 like what is it about her? Right as in mother nature? 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:23.199 And and I think there are so many of us 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:32.520 that when we think about mother, that can be a complex, scary, negative, 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:38.240 um kind of fraud relationship. And so if that's been 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:40.960 the relationship with our own mother, why on earth would 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:48.280 we want to have a relationship with the mother who? Yeah, 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:51.200 when you put it that way, UM right, I mean 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:53.240 this this is what you know if you if you 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:55.200 flip this quite often if you think about this in 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:57.680 a religious context. This is why many people, many men, 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:01.160 I think, have have deep issues in religious because because 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:04.000 you know, priests are called father. So if you've had 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:06.400 a negative relationship with father, why why am I How 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:07.680 on earth am I going to get to a place 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:11.240 where I could trust the Big Father? Oh yeah, so 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:15.560 these are questions I asked myself. Yeah. Yeah, So I 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.280 think that's a that's a learning and a you know 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.719 for me, really the question is whether it's whether it's 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:28.000 remothering or continued mothering. There is a question thereof how 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:30.960 do I if there wasn't trust inside of my own 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:33.400 relationship with my mother or inside of my own relationship 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.920 with my own mothering of self. How do I get 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:39.840 to the place with nature where there can be trust 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:43.400 between her and I? Wow, that's you just broke that 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:47.559 down for me. Really, I feel so seen because I 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:50.400 I've been going through that with my own self. Of like, 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:52.640 I did some work the other day where I was 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:58.440 revisiting my my inner child, and and what came out 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.880 was that I don't that peace of me, didn't trust me, 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:07.080 and and so yeah, and then tying nature into that, 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:09.800 and then trying my own mother's the relationship with my 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:12.880 mother into that where I don't I don't run to 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:17.160 my mother for solace and comfort and so yeah, And 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.720 and I think I've had a lack of trust around 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.400 mother nature of like you know when people say, you know, 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.040 let the earth hold you like it it could hold 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:32.240 every I'm like and so but I recognize that I 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:36.840 so deeply desire that, And I think sometimes sometimes I 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.800 think what's coming up for me around nature is grief 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:44.680 because I recognizing that I so deeply desire to be 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:50.520 held by the mother and and starting to starting to 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:52.520 hold my own child, starting to be able to be 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:56.319 held by nature is a journey. Yeah, you know, there's 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:58.200 something coming up for me just as we're talking about this, 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:02.080 which is um and I don't necessarily want to get 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:05.520 into like like individual pathology, but um, you know, there's 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:07.920 something to be said for visiting nature being in kind 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:11.440 of wild spaces in broad daylight, which which feels to 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:15.240 me intuitively like very confronting as opposed to night. Now, 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:16.959 a lot of people would say, well, like nighttime is 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:19.240 when you're like, are in a tent and you hear 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.640 all the noises and you're like, you know, there there's 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.280 a there's a more visceral like fear with that, right, 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:26.560 But you know there's a thought when you ask, like 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:29.160 what is advice about getting into nature? Like you know, 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:32.560 for me where I live, I could open a window 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:34.559 at night and it could be pitch black, but and 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:39.320 I could hear frogs, and that might be the first step. 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:41.520 Like there's an intuitive hit here for me. That's like 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:43.960 I wonder if the first step is actually kind of 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:48.480 in darkness, if that might feel more comforting and less 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:52.319 confronting than kind of broad daylight. Like what if there 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:55.520 wasn't as much light so that I couldn't see at all, 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:57.439 Like if it was just a little bit more sense 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:01.640 based as in, what am I hearing, what am I smelling? 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:06.360 What am I feeling myself touch, you know, et cetera. 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:08.920 And and i'd be I'd be curious about that as 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:10.760 a as an entry way and for people that it's 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:14.720 also really reminiscent then of what is the womb like 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:17.920 I was gonna say, Yeah, that feels very would Yeah. 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:20.800 I I get up fairly early in the morning and 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:24.679 I let the dog outside, and that's my favorite time 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.200 because there is something very womblike about it. And I 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:30.240 love hearing the owls of owls that come visit, and 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.440 it's my favorite. So, yeah, there is something about the 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:37.240 darkness that feels very womblike. I love that, you know. 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:39.120 I want to I want to talk about your latest book, 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:43.360 Everything to Remember, which is so stunning. It chronicles this 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.240 epic camping trip that you took with your mom after 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:50.839 her Alzheimer's diagnosis, And I just wanted to know a 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.120 bit about your mother and how you would describe your 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:59.240 relationship with her before her diagnosis. Yeah, Um, my mother 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:04.320 is a wonderful woman. Um she My relationship with my 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:07.640 mom was was good. That we weren't like best friend 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:11.120 mother daughter. We didn't have that kind of tightness um, 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:16.520 but we also didn't have kind of a palpable kind 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.840 of tension that a lot of mothers and daughters have. 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:24.920 And I didn't feel really kind of pressured by her 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:29.640 to fulfill any of her dreams and hopes, and you know, 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:31.720 maybe that of her life that went on fulfilled, et cetera. 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:35.400 I had from my mother. She was, she was and 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:40.560 still is demonstratively warm. That was her primary mode of 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:46.760 mothering was too. Like I have countless memories of just 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:51.440 her body like a hug, a hand, a touch of 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:53.680 petting on the head, like all through my life. So 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:58.080 there was this kind of physical availability and demonstrative warmth 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:00.000 through my life. And there was a lot of consistency 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.560 and a lot of a lot of safety woven into that. 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:05.840 And I think what that gave me right from the 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:08.480 get go was maybe what I'd call like nervous system 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:15.040 privilege in a lot of ways. Yeah, that that being said, 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.120 there was I was a little one, and this is 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.880 this is really in the book, that that felt a 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:24.720 lot of emotion in rooms and felt a lot of 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:29.200 energy in rooms, and no one, including my mother, especially 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.360 my mother, was able to help me create language for that, 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:35.440 and that there's a lot of confusion for me, and 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:37.880 why am I feeling all of these things and nobody's 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:40.760 talking about it, and nobody's helping me name it, and 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.680 nobody else is feeling it, you know. So there was 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:48.720 a lot of shutting down of of different physical feelings 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:52.040 for myself, energetic feelings, emotional feelings, etcetera, in order to 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.800 kind of fit that mold. And and I think that 0:15:55.920 --> 0:16:00.680 created over time, Um, why aren't you blaming a bunch 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:04.080 of things to me with words? Uh? That created over 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:08.000 time a large kind of gap for us. I think 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.800 there's two other things. Is that just in general, what 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:12.920 I was seeing in society and certainly inside of my 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:17.240 parents marriage, which was quite a traditional masculine feminine roles 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:21.600 inside of marriage, was a devaluation of the feminine. And 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:26.840 so I simultaneously like devalued her um because I saw 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.400 everybody else kind of doing that with the feminine, and 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:31.880 and so it kind of pushed me in the direction 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:33.320 of the masculine, which is a lot of what the 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:36.920 first book is about. Um. And then everything left remember 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:39.960 is like kind of coming back to that feminine. And 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:43.320 so I think there was a large devaluation and really 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:45.960 are not seeing her now. That was kind of no 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.320 fault of her own. That's more societal kind of systemic 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:55.640 um view um. And I think the final piece with 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:58.280 that is that there were and this has kind of 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:01.440 talked about in the book, there was her own lived 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:06.800 experience that that created deep, deep shame for her all 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:11.199 around the feminine. And so she didn't have access to that, 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:12.919 Like she didn't give me access to that, but she 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:14.840 also didn't have access to that, so there was an 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:20.280 even further kind of pull for me to move away 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:23.320 from her, like to separate from her like a maiden 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:26.000 does we we we do that archetypeally we we have 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.280 to separate from our mother's But there was there was 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:30.120 a real kind of devaluation, and I think I think 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:33.800 she also was taught to devalue and carried a lot 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:37.720 of shame around around the feminine, and so that that 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:42.440 created a kind of chasm for us that that eventually 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:45.080 through the book there was a much deeper exploration of. 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:47.320 But that was you know, there was a demonstrative warmth, 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:51.399 steadiness and safety on a multitude of different levels, and 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:57.280 a deep, generation long rejection of the feminine. Yeah, I mean, 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:01.440 don't you think we're the first generation that's actually even 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:06.720 recognizing that that shut down and the Yeah, I mean 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:11.119 when you talked about you also kind of pushing that 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:13.720 part of your mother away and turning towards the masculine. 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:16.240 I mean, I relate to that so much, and it 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:19.000 it made me very sad. Your book is so beautiful. 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:22.320 It's really brought me to questioning so many things and 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.280 so much grief with it myself. But I'm like, oh, 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:27.120 I can see where I've done that with my mother 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:31.560 and how I've I've definitely been more masculine driven in 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:34.120 my life, and it's it's now for the first time, 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.920 I think I'm recognizing how much I've denied my own 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:41.840 feminine and how much the world, especially right now, is 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:46.520 denying and has denied the feminine. And it's enraging. Yeah, 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.800 I mean absolutely. This was such a huge part of 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:52.720 the journey for me, and this is like was a 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:54.480 real kick off. There was I was therapist I was 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:56.840 working with who said straight up to me, you know, 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:59.800 you think you're bigger than your mother, And I didn't 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:02.239 know what that really meant. Cognitively, I was like, what 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:05.360 is it? Do I think I'm smarter. Do I think 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:07.640 I'm more important? Like what does that even mean? But 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:09.639 but my body clear, I mean it was like my 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:13.639 entire physicality was like uh huh. So I had to 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.120 really reckon with that and a lot of this for me. 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:19.400 I think about this with my mother. I think about 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:21.359 this with archetypal mother, and I think about this with 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:27.840 mother nature, this kind of right sizing of she came first, 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:34.440 and there were burdens that that generation had to carry 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:37.679 that I think sometimes our generation doesn't always see. Now, 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:40.119 that doesn't mean that there weren't hurts, that there weren't 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:44.080 things that were mistakes made, that there weren't um there 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:48.200 wasn't pain caused. But you know, I often think about 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:50.400 it when I think about my mom's generation and her 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:55.600 mom as well, what they had to bury just straight 0:19:55.680 --> 0:20:01.880 up barry to make it through and and what our 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:05.879 generation now has to unearth to kind of bring that 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:08.600 back to life. Now, when I think about that in 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.520 regards to just my individual mother daughter relationship, there's a 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:13.480 lot of anger, right, Like, as you said, like I 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:15.879 just I get enraged at that, and I get enraged 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:18.320 a society now. But when I pull that out in 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:21.040 a time frame, and look at that from a lineage 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:26.160 standpoint long term, I actually think there might be kind 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:30.359 of like a mystic technique of Okay, this generation is 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:35.119 going to bury the treasure, and that is their job, 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:38.720 and they're kind of sacred contract and it is going 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:40.840 to be painful, and their daughters are going to be 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:45.280 very mad at them for that, and their daughters have 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.399 a sacred contract of unearthing that, and that's going to 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:52.320 anger some of the previous generation who had to kind 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:55.120 of keep their mouth shut for a long time. What 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:56.959 what do you mean You're the generation that can now 0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:02.520 talk about this and what you know? I mean, that's terrifying. Mhm. Alright, 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:04.680 on that intense note, we're going to cut away for 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:07.040 a brief break, but we'll be right back with more. 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:16.359 Step Jacker, Welcome back, my friends. Steph was just breaking 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:20.840 down the multigenerational, multifaceted and multi layered concept of the 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:24.560 mother daughter bond. But when I think about it from 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:27.440 that lineage kind of what am I looking at over 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:32.040 two d and fifty three hundred years, I actually think, gosh, 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:35.879 I have a lot of gratitude for the generations before 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:41.040 for what they buried in a kind of mystical, unconscious 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:45.159 attempt to keep safe. I love that. I love that perspective. 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:48.200 I've never thought of it in that way. And yeah, 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:53.240 I definitely have been able to find the gratitude for 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:56.680 for my mother and for everything you just said of 0:21:57.000 --> 0:22:01.520 the burying. Um, but it's sometimes along with the anger, 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:05.640 it's sometimes really hard to rest in that gratitude. Of course, 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:08.040 of course it's like a both. And this is where 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:10.760 all this nuance comes over, right, Like there's lived experience 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:14.679 and then there's like, you know, the mytho poetic version, right, 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:16.879 and it's like, Okay, some days I'm if I've had 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:19.520 too much coffee, I'm probably in the lived experience version. 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:22.040 And if I'm like, you know, have meditated all morning, 0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:24.119 I'm the mytho poetic and you know we dance, We 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:27.560 dance in those spaces. Yeah, totally. I want to talk 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:30.880 about your mother's Alzheimer's for you know, people out there 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:35.600 who may have relatives that may be experiencing this, Um, 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:39.920 maybe they might be experiencing some things themselves. What are 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:42.840 what were some of the signs the signpost I guess 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:46.159 along the way. Yeah, yeah, there, Um, there's there's a 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:49.440 lot and they're very different. You know, there's there's there's 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:53.120 Dementia is kind of the larger umbrella. Alzheimer's is one 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:55.840 of the um kind of spokes underneath it, and there's 0:22:55.920 --> 0:23:00.720 multiple other forms of cognitive decline. And you know, for 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:03.840 for my mother, there was a lot of early things 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:09.560 missing names, um, you know, for just general forgetfulness about 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:13.280 certain things, etcetera. But the real you know, when you 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:15.320 walk across the street and there's a there's a hand 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:18.320 flashing that says if it's like green, you can walk, 0:23:18.359 --> 0:23:19.720 and there's a person walking and then it starts to 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:21.880 flash a hand like she started to get confused about 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:24.879 those types of things, which is, you know, we know 0:23:24.960 --> 0:23:28.160 this stuff from when we're preschoolers. So there was there 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:32.320 was a general confusion general forgetfulness, really forgetful with names 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:35.200 and dates and places, that type of thing. The main 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:38.119 tip off for me. I remember I was driving with 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:39.680 her in a car one day and we were having 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:42.199 a conversation and I asked her a question and she 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:46.000 said something that immediately enraged me. Like I was kind 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:49.399 of like I cannot but I was so mad, and 0:23:49.440 --> 0:23:50.960 I got into the car. She was dropping me off 0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:53.399 at a friend's place and I got into the car 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:55.360