WEBVTT - Part Two: Alan Lomax: How to Record Everything and Mostly Make the World Better in the Process

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<v Speaker 1>Cool Zone Media.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>your new weekly podcast that talks about recording things sometimes. Actually,

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<v Speaker 2>this is the only episode that I'm aware of that

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<v Speaker 2>is about recording things, but it is one. This is

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<v Speaker 2>an episode. I never know whether to say one episode

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<v Speaker 2>or two episodes when I have two episodes a week.

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<v Speaker 2>But I know what I do have on this podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>which is a guest named Bridgett. Hi.

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<v Speaker 3>Hi, Margaret, thank you so much for having me. I

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<v Speaker 3>am thrilled to be back.

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<v Speaker 2>Yay, welcome back five minutes later, I mean two days later.

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<v Speaker 2>Sophie is our producer. Hello, Sophie.

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<v Speaker 4>This is our second time starting this podcast because the

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<v Speaker 4>first time failed. We got so distracted that we went

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<v Speaker 4>on a like personal stories chat for like fifteen minutes,

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<v Speaker 4>and now we're back to restarting the podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we had to complain about beauty standards.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, girl talk, just some off the record girl talk.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, nothing for you sickos.

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<v Speaker 2>But right, anyway, this episode or two episodes, or however

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<v Speaker 2>we define things, I changed the way to find it

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<v Speaker 2>all the time is part two of a two parter

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<v Speaker 2>about Alan Lomax, and part one was mostly complaining about

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<v Speaker 2>his dad. But where we last left our hero, he

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<v Speaker 2>was traveling with his dad and had led belly in

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<v Speaker 2>toe I think, guess where we're at, and he was

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<v Speaker 2>up to no good. It was up to no good. Eventually,

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<v Speaker 2>Honey led better breaks free of the Lomaxes, and eventually

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<v Speaker 2>Alan breaks free of his father and builds his own

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<v Speaker 2>career doing the same work, but hopefully in a less

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<v Speaker 2>exploitive way. Almost certainly in a less exploitive way. It

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<v Speaker 2>would be hard to do it as exploitavely. And also

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<v Speaker 2>it's kind of cool that these two people are very similar,

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<v Speaker 2>have these two ways of going about this. And the

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<v Speaker 2>person who changed the world and is remembered and is

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<v Speaker 2>like everyone's like, what a guy is the one who

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<v Speaker 2>did it without fucking people over?

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<v Speaker 3>The cool one.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And so soon enough, at about twenty, he's like,

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<v Speaker 2>instead of teaming up with Dad, what if I team

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<v Speaker 2>up with two women in their forties. So one of

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<v Speaker 2>them is the still famous black writer Zola Neil Hurston,

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<v Speaker 2>who is most famous for the book Their Eyes Were

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<v Speaker 2>Watching God, And the other is a folklorist, a white

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<v Speaker 2>professor named Mary Elizabeth Barnacle. Barnacle's not spelled the same,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's still I think it's kind of a cool name.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, oh, you're probably like Scottish sailors name, like

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<v Speaker 2>Mary Elizabeth Barnacle. The only one of them with a

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<v Speaker 2>real job is the professor Mary Elizabeth Barnacle. So they're

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<v Speaker 2>working off of Barnacle's salary and they travel around the

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<v Speaker 2>South and they're recording folk music. And this time they're

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<v Speaker 2>less detached from their subjects, even when the Lomaxes had

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<v Speaker 2>led better with them, Like the Lomaxes were like sleeping

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<v Speaker 2>in white hotels and like not really mingling, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>So with Hirston, they're staying in black communities, and in

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<v Speaker 2>the process, the three of them produced the first I

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<v Speaker 2>kind of can't believe this, but it was presented to

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<v Speaker 2>me as fact. They produced the first audio recorded account

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<v Speaker 2>of someone talking about their time being enslaved. Wow, it

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<v Speaker 2>was a ninety two year old man.

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<v Speaker 3>It seems wild to me that that would. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>I believe you, but I share your that that seems

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<v Speaker 3>unbelievable to me.

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<v Speaker 2>I know. But one of the things that's interesting Alan

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<v Speaker 2>Lomax is going to kind of invent oral history while

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<v Speaker 2>trying to record folk music. So I think it didn't

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<v Speaker 2>occur to anyone when they started recording out of wax

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<v Speaker 2>cylinders that instead of just playing songs, they could be like,

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<v Speaker 2>what was your life like? And famously say famously no

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<v Speaker 2>and gave a shit about inside people. But actually there's

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<v Speaker 2>an incredible amount of literature and stuff produced and especially

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<v Speaker 2>by formally enslaved people to try and record their experiences.

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<v Speaker 2>And they're hanging out in the South and they're specifically

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<v Speaker 2>studying a lot of like Creole and Haitian music, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's what Herston's history background of like academic study and

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<v Speaker 2>stuff is, And they started to do the work to

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<v Speaker 2>show which dance and musical styles had no European origins.

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<v Speaker 2>So like the idea of being like, oh, what is

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<v Speaker 2>African dance from a diasporic point of view was worked

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<v Speaker 2>that the three of them did, including a musical dance

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<v Speaker 2>style called Jurrey, which I hadn't heard of before. But

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<v Speaker 2>you can watch modern folks still accessing those songs because

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<v Speaker 2>of that work, and this goes on to influence Zydeco

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<v Speaker 2>music is the one that I had heard of. So

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<v Speaker 2>while these two white people are driving around the black

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<v Speaker 2>person and hanging out in black communities. Do you know

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<v Speaker 2>what they did stay safe? That doesn't sound good in retrospect.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, I cannot even imagine.

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<v Speaker 2>Tell me they did blackface. Ah, of course, but not

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<v Speaker 2>in the way you'd think.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm so scared.

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<v Speaker 2>I know. So at Zora's insistence, they put walnut oil

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<v Speaker 2>on their skin to appear darker. Alan was like, black

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<v Speaker 2>people will know we're not black. This is not gonna

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<v Speaker 2>fool anybody. Yeah, and Zora's like, no, shit, it's not

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<v Speaker 2>to fool black people into thinking that you're black. It's

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<v Speaker 2>to fool white people so that they don't get mad

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<v Speaker 2>at you for hanging out with black people.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh, so I have to step in.

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<v Speaker 2>Please do I love this?

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<v Speaker 3>I love Zora Nolhurston the way when you read her writing,

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<v Speaker 3>she really had such a savvy way of bridging the

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<v Speaker 3>gap between black and white. This is so like I

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<v Speaker 3>had never heard this anecdote, but this is so spot

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<v Speaker 3>on for her.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I only know a little bit about her.

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<v Speaker 3>She seems fucking cool, such a fascinating Like I said.

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<v Speaker 2>She's going to be her own subject at some point.

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<v Speaker 2>Please tell me, Oh my god, please.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. So all of her work was like funded by

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<v Speaker 3>wealthy white pace, which is pretty common at the time,

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<v Speaker 3>and she subsequently she was so good at navigating sort

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<v Speaker 3>of black white relations and how you like keep white

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<v Speaker 3>people feeling good while being authentic to the black voice.

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<v Speaker 3>This so like what you're saying totally tracks for something

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<v Speaker 3>that herson would have done. And she was also funny

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<v Speaker 3>about it. So her being like, no, shit is not

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<v Speaker 3>gonna full black people. It's supposed to make white people

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<v Speaker 3>feel good. That is classic person. I love this.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I love it because like as soon as they

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<v Speaker 2>read like oh fuck, because I was reading a line

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<v Speaker 2>it was like, and then they put Waldo oil on

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<v Speaker 2>their skin. I was like, oh God. And then I'm like, ah,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not mad, Like I'm not mad.

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<v Speaker 3>That's the thing is like it actually.

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<v Speaker 2>Is kind of like it's not minstrelism or whatever the fuck.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, like kind of just makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Like I get it, I get it.

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<v Speaker 3>It's what I'm saying.

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<v Speaker 2>Also, Alan got arrested multiple times on this trip for

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<v Speaker 2>being a white person hanging out with black people. We did,

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<v Speaker 2>so it's like it was it was necessary.

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<v Speaker 3>She knew what she was talking about.

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<v Speaker 2>Basically, every time the police saw this guy, they're like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>he's an instigator. He's gonna give them ideas, and so

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<v Speaker 2>this is true even when he travels in poor white areas,

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<v Speaker 2>he's seen as an instigator because the only out of

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<v Speaker 2>towners that are usually coming into these areas are labor

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<v Speaker 2>organizers and police don't like white unions or black unions,

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<v Speaker 2>or especially integrated unions. So it's worse when he's like

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<v Speaker 2>the white person hana with black people. But even when

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<v Speaker 2>he's the like out of towner, like we like to

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<v Speaker 2>imagine we have like free travel in this country. Obviously

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<v Speaker 2>we certainly didn't then, but like it's just interesting to

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<v Speaker 2>think of all of the ways people are like you're

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<v Speaker 2>not from around here can go really badly. So he

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<v Speaker 2>gets arrested like twice, and this time the three of

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<v Speaker 2>them tried to help people build their careers and not

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<v Speaker 2>just exploit them, like they would help people find contacts

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<v Speaker 2>and get shows. And later Alan is going to spend

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of time helping people copyright their own music.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's where it's like crucial from my point of view,

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<v Speaker 2>it's like who owns this? Like something that we've had

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<v Speaker 2>to cover on the show a lot, is that the

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<v Speaker 2>most resilient to Jim Crow. Black people in the South

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<v Speaker 2>during the Jim Crow periods with people who owned land.

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<v Speaker 2>So the work that happened during reconstruction to get land

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<v Speaker 2>into black farmers hands was some of the most essential work.

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<v Speaker 2>And so to me like ownership, like, oh, the copyright

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<v Speaker 2>is with the musician, fucking matters. But the two white

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<v Speaker 2>academics in the nineteen thirties were still not exactly good

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<v Speaker 2>at this, still not perfect. The two women began to

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<v Speaker 2>argue in the cars they drove. We also, I only

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<v Speaker 2>have this one biographer. I don't trust on this. But

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<v Speaker 2>the two women began to argue in the cars they drove.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know exactly. Oh, that's funny. I put in

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<v Speaker 2>my own script that I should mention I don't trust source,

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<v Speaker 2>but I already said that you must.

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<v Speaker 3>Have really not trusted the source that you were, Like

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<v Speaker 3>I said it and I wrote it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's been ten minutes in the first episode talking

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<v Speaker 2>about I'm gonna hear from that author and they're gonna

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<v Speaker 2>be like, here's all my sources, and I'd be like,

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<v Speaker 2>I guess I was wrong. I don't know whatever. Anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>Barnacle took a photo of a black kid eating watermelon,

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<v Speaker 2>and Zora was like, what the fuck? And I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know exact this is as much information as I have

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<v Speaker 2>on that. And also I'm paraphrasing when I say what

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<v Speaker 2>the fuck? And Alan defended Barnacle and was like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>what's the big deal? And Zora was you know it said, Zora,

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<v Speaker 2>you're being unreasonable, which never happened again in the history.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no, well, meeting white person has ever told a

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<v Speaker 3>black woman that we were being unreasonable. Ever again, this

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<v Speaker 3>was beginning and end.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you can't say that because I'm anti racist, so

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<v Speaker 2>I can't. You have to be the unreasonable one. So

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<v Speaker 2>Zora left and the two white ethnographers they continued on.

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<v Speaker 2>And you won't be shocked to know the two white

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<v Speaker 2>folklorsts were met with way less success now that they've

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<v Speaker 2>driven off the black author.

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<v Speaker 3>Surprise, surprise.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they went onto the Bahamas, the two white folklorists.

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<v Speaker 2>They went onto the Bahamas, and folks trusted them more.

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<v Speaker 2>I just assume different race relations, you know, the South

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<v Speaker 2>being a particularly hard time place. Whatever. Anyway, they go

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<v Speaker 2>onto the Bahamas and the people the recording tend to

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<v Speaker 2>trust them, for better or worse. The officials, however, decide

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<v Speaker 2>they're probably labor agitators and drove them out of the country.

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<v Speaker 2>So they didn't last there. They drifted back up to

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<v Speaker 2>New York and they started going through the endless hours

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<v Speaker 2>of recordings, and I think at this point Hurston is

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<v Speaker 2>back to participating in this. I don't think it was,

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<v Speaker 2>because certainly Alan is going to continue to work with Herston.

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<v Speaker 2>Later they go back to New York and they're going

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<v Speaker 2>through endless hours of recordings and they're hanging out with

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<v Speaker 2>all the bohemians and folks in New York were working

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<v Speaker 2>really hard to try and figure out what American less

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<v Speaker 2>music should be because if you ever heard like European

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<v Speaker 2>leftist music, it's classical international, everyone's gonna be mad at me,

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<v Speaker 2>you know.

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<v Speaker 3>I know the vibe you're going for.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and this is before Belachow, so people hadn't realized

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<v Speaker 2>there's folk music in Italy too, and you could just

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<v Speaker 2>use that. But I love the song I'll ave Beticotas

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<v Speaker 2>and it's fucking classical music.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that was good. Was good.

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<v Speaker 2>I liked that, And so American workers were like, yay,

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<v Speaker 2>let's sing me international. No, They're like, we want songs

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<v Speaker 2>that sound like American music, and so all these folk musicians,

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<v Speaker 2>labor organizers, not just New York City residents sat down

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<v Speaker 2>to be like, there's a conscious thing. They were like,

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<v Speaker 2>what does our folk music look like? And this is

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<v Speaker 2>how you start getting like Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie

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<v Speaker 2>are part of these scenes, and you end up with

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<v Speaker 2>songs like dump the Bosses off Your Back. I have

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<v Speaker 2>to admit I like Alice beticottas more than dump the

0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:53.880
<v Speaker 2>Bosses off your Back, but I like led Belly more

0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:58.680
<v Speaker 2>than I like either of them. So and this ended

0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:02.280
<v Speaker 2>up tying into this caught me by surprise. It ties

0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:06.040
<v Speaker 2>into the larger project of trying to build American cultural identity.

0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:09.440
<v Speaker 2>So it wasn't just like what does the leftist American

0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.720
<v Speaker 2>cultural identity look like? Leftists were some of the first

0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:16.640
<v Speaker 2>people saying, what does American cultural identity look like? If

0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:20.840
<v Speaker 2>we're not England, you know, And we're like, what does

0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:23.560
<v Speaker 2>it look like to try and have? And I have

0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.199
<v Speaker 2>When I say I have mixed feelings about the American project,

0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:31.600
<v Speaker 2>that's a lie. I have negative feelings about the American project.

0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:34.640
<v Speaker 3>They're not mixed, they're just purely negative.

0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:39.000
<v Speaker 2>I see why some of the things that they said

0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:42.800
<v Speaker 2>that they believed in are interesting. I see why people

0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:48.480
<v Speaker 2>coming were interested in democracy as a concept. We just whatever,

0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:50.400
<v Speaker 2>and people heard me talk about this a million times.

0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:52.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm just very aware of it right now because we're

0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:56.920
<v Speaker 2>recording on the second of July, right before America the

0:12:56.960 --> 0:13:00.320
<v Speaker 2>stage falls apart, and everyone realized the metaphor of it.

0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry we have to do this tangent today. Right

0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:06.960
<v Speaker 2>before we recorded in Washington, DC, where Bridgetot I believe

0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:10.680
<v Speaker 2>you sometimes keep track of the news. Yeah, the stage

0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:15.800
<v Speaker 2>that people were practicing for America's fucking anniversary party. You

0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:17.480
<v Speaker 2>w know this story. You can tell me this stort.

0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:21.360
<v Speaker 3>Better bell apart before our very eyes in the one

0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:26.000
<v Speaker 3>hundred and four degree DC heat. Truly, I cannot imagine

0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:29.480
<v Speaker 3>a more apt metaphor for our democracy and the way

0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:33.959
<v Speaker 3>that it feels right now than watching this like hastily

0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:39.160
<v Speaker 3>erected shabby stage fall apart before our eyes, a stage

0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:43.240
<v Speaker 3>that was meant was erected to celebrate America to fifty

0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:44.320
<v Speaker 3>watching it crumble.

0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.200
<v Speaker 2>I know, I like to imagine that those all those

0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:49.839
<v Speaker 2>shirts that say America seventeen seventy six of twenty twenty

0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:51.480
<v Speaker 2>six is just birth and death dates.

0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:59.000
<v Speaker 3>Anyway, it does look like that, doesn't it. Yeah, totally rip,

0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:03.440
<v Speaker 3>Like somebody needs to make the like bootleg funeral shirt

0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:04.480
<v Speaker 3>for America.

0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:09.320
<v Speaker 2>It's like rip, like yeah, America seventy seventy six, twenty

0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:14.080
<v Speaker 2>twenty six. It was good while it lasted fast for

0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:15.400
<v Speaker 2>some people some places.

0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:18.120
<v Speaker 3>I would buy that. I would buy that. Make that

0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:20.320
<v Speaker 3>so I can buy it. If you're a bootlegger or

0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:22.720
<v Speaker 3>an airbrusher, make that t like I will buy you.

0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:24.000
<v Speaker 3>Got one customer, I'll buy it.

0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.800
<v Speaker 2>Hell yeah, don't sell them on the street in DC.

0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:34.840
<v Speaker 2>I worry for your safety. No bootlegger, airbrusher. So anything homegrown,

0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:39.360
<v Speaker 2>anything bootleg in America, even white stuff wasn't taken seriously

0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:42.040
<v Speaker 2>as art. This is starting to change in the early

0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:45.600
<v Speaker 2>twentieth century. This surprised me, so I kind of want

0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:48.120
<v Speaker 2>to like see more sources talking about this, but I

0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:50.080
<v Speaker 2>believe it that it was certainly at least ongoing, if

0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:52.520
<v Speaker 2>not really starting at this point. And there's this whole

0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:56.840
<v Speaker 2>big fight all the record companies. Everyone's fighting for authenticity,

0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:58.960
<v Speaker 2>and this is going to tie into shit today just

0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:04.840
<v Speaker 2>so completely race music, black music was authentic, hillbilly music

0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:09.240
<v Speaker 2>was authentic. White people music. How dare anyone do both?

0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:11.360
<v Speaker 2>Of course, Led Belly kept getting told he couldn't play

0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:16.920
<v Speaker 2>cowboy songs despite being literally a cowboy. Charles Seeger, one

0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.320
<v Speaker 2>of the musicians and theorist who's doing this work, father

0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.040
<v Speaker 2>of the more famous Pete Seeger, wrote about how it

0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.840
<v Speaker 2>was all about constructing yourself as folk to sell yourself

0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:28.240
<v Speaker 2>to the non folk. I remember when I was like younger,

0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:29.960
<v Speaker 2>being like, what the fuck does folk mean? And the

0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:32.840
<v Speaker 2>answer is, what the fuck does folk mean? Like that's

0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.280
<v Speaker 2>the answer to the question, is like folk is a

0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:40.800
<v Speaker 2>morphoist concept, you know. And so Charles Seger wrote that

0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:45.880
<v Speaker 2>since the folk and nonfolk quote has now exploited the

0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:48.200
<v Speaker 2>other for a couple of decades, in the large frame

0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:51.080
<v Speaker 2>of the United States, there must exist few, if any

0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.640
<v Speaker 2>person's left ratable as one hundred percent either folk or

0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:59.040
<v Speaker 2>non folk. The vast population lies between these limits, each

0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.080
<v Speaker 2>individual made up of varying proportions or inhabited or released

0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:07.040
<v Speaker 2>folkness or nonfolkness. And so kind of just like making

0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:09.960
<v Speaker 2>fun of how everyone's obsessed with like fucking authenticity.

0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:13.200
<v Speaker 3>I don't want to take us on a tangent, but

0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:16.480
<v Speaker 3>what's your thought on this era? Of folk music is

0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:17.400
<v Speaker 3>this Are you down with this?

0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:17.840
<v Speaker 1>Oh?

0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:19.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, I like this era folk music, And actually

0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:22.680
<v Speaker 2>I like it more now after doing these episodes, because

0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:24.960
<v Speaker 2>when I was like, okay, so if I'm going to

0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.160
<v Speaker 2>be an asshole about folk music, when people are like

0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:29.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm a folk musician and they put on Pete Seeger

0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:31.880
<v Speaker 2>and I'm like, this is a guy with a guitar,

0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:38.400
<v Speaker 2>a singer songwriter. I want accordions, I want like fiddles,

0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.160
<v Speaker 2>I want people who are really good at instruments. I

0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:45.000
<v Speaker 2>want you know, this other shit, right. But I think

0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:49.160
<v Speaker 2>I was actually, in a weird way a bias against

0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:52.800
<v Speaker 2>kind of American music because I like blues and shit,

0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:55.000
<v Speaker 2>but I didn't consider it folk, although in this context

0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.320
<v Speaker 2>it sort of is considered folk, right because it's like

0:16:57.360 --> 0:16:59.720
<v Speaker 2>authentic American music from the working clas I'm making lots

0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:02.480
<v Speaker 2>of air quotes gestures that nobody can see, whereas like

0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:05.560
<v Speaker 2>European folk or like Irish folker, you know, Balkan folk music,

0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.160
<v Speaker 2>or you know, even like traditional music from not Europe.

0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:11.040
<v Speaker 2>Like I was like, this shit's amazing and complicated. I

0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:12.359
<v Speaker 2>just don't want to hear a man who doesn't know

0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:14.800
<v Speaker 2>how to sing named Bob Dylan sing things. You know,

0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:18.200
<v Speaker 2>not to pick on anyone in particular named Bob Dylan,

0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:21.439
<v Speaker 2>but if like the general Bob Dylan's yeah, and like

0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.280
<v Speaker 2>I actually never really liked that. Okay, that's a lie.

0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:25.760
<v Speaker 2>I like Bob Dylan in high school because I was

0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:28.440
<v Speaker 2>desperately trying to find an identity, not because I actually

0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:31.200
<v Speaker 2>enjoyed his music. See also when I like Smashing Pumpkins

0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:34.280
<v Speaker 2>in middle school, you know, yeah, yeah, what's your opinion

0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:34.880
<v Speaker 2>of folk music?

0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.520
<v Speaker 3>Oh, I'm kind of similar to you. I'm only coming

0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:41.200
<v Speaker 3>to appreciate it now because I feel like, for most

0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:43.680
<v Speaker 3>of my life as a black person, it's like I

0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:47.720
<v Speaker 3>imagine it sort of being this like in opposition to

0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.679
<v Speaker 3>my own identity. But then learning more about the roots

0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:53.320
<v Speaker 3>and how it came to be only and honestly used

0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:55.440
<v Speaker 3>to be a out of your work, Like learning about

0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.520
<v Speaker 3>the roots has made me realize how much more in

0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:01.639
<v Speaker 3>common we had. I hate the fact that when you

0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:04.840
<v Speaker 3>think about folk music, people have been so successful at

0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:09.359
<v Speaker 3>being like, oh, this is about you know, like it's

0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:11.960
<v Speaker 3>supposed to be about like white identity. When I actually

0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:14.840
<v Speaker 3>learned about the roots, it really I've only now come

0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:16.840
<v Speaker 3>to really appreciate it more. Does that make sense?

0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.159
<v Speaker 2>No, it makes complete sense to me. That is like

0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:21.879
<v Speaker 2>it's so complicated because then you're like, ah, yes, all

0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:24.359
<v Speaker 2>of this stuff was basically stolen from black people. And

0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.280
<v Speaker 2>then it's awkward because some of it you go back

0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:30.080
<v Speaker 2>far enough and John is just stealing it from black people. Yeah, right,

0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:33.280
<v Speaker 2>but Alan is like trying to do an anti racist

0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:36.960
<v Speaker 2>cultural exchange exactly, which leads to it being stolen by

0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:41.639
<v Speaker 2>like and it it just makes me sad, you know,

0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.520
<v Speaker 2>because like I would love to live in a culture

0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.840
<v Speaker 2>of cultural appreciation instead of appropriation, but we live under

0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:50.120
<v Speaker 2>capitalism and white supremacy, so we don't get to have

0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:52.280
<v Speaker 2>that because we have to destroy those things.

0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:52.560
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:57.399
<v Speaker 2>I think listening to led Belly makes me like Woody

0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:00.880
<v Speaker 2>Guthrie Moore. And also the fact that led Belly literally

0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:04.439
<v Speaker 2>mentored what he got three like it wasn't a like

0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:06.479
<v Speaker 2>in opposition to each other thing, you know. And their

0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:09.000
<v Speaker 2>whole thing was that they they tried, they made this

0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:12.359
<v Speaker 2>fantastic gamble to try and create a culture that was

0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:15.199
<v Speaker 2>actually diverse, you know.

0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:18.119
<v Speaker 3>And I have to say the first guy I was

0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:22.440
<v Speaker 3>ever deeply, deeply like infatuated with had a, uh, this

0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:26.840
<v Speaker 3>machine kills fascist tattoo. And I know it's a cliche,

0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:30.880
<v Speaker 3>but it's still like when I hell I see that tattoo,

0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:32.080
<v Speaker 3>I'm like, oh.

0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:32.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah it.

0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:36.800
<v Speaker 2>No totally and like and even like anti warship, like

0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:41.240
<v Speaker 2>anti fascism. It wasn't just white folk musicians, you know,

0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:44.440
<v Speaker 2>like fucking yes, Led Belly sings a song called mister

0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:46.520
<v Speaker 2>Hitler and that's like We're gonna bring you down, you know,

0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:51.359
<v Speaker 2>like yeah, ah, I like that tattoo too. But then

0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:53.879
<v Speaker 2>there's the people who write this machine mixed folk music

0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:55.119
<v Speaker 2>on guns.

0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:57.879
<v Speaker 3>Oh I have not seen that.

0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:02.680
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I live in a horrible niche So all right,

0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:07.160
<v Speaker 2>back to our heroes, our anti hear our people. After

0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:11.040
<v Speaker 2>he had another wild summer, Alan is back to Texas

0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:13.240
<v Speaker 2>for his junior year of college because he is still

0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:15.600
<v Speaker 2>twenty years old. That's the other thing to remember about

0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:18.920
<v Speaker 2>all of this. He is a legally distinct from child.

0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:20.879
<v Speaker 2>He is a child, you know, he's doing all this

0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:24.480
<v Speaker 2>crazy shit. And then the next summer he bums around

0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:27.359
<v Speaker 2>Mexico with no money, busking with a guitar, and he

0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.320
<v Speaker 2>starts dating a Jewish communist, a card carrying communist named

0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:32.639
<v Speaker 2>Elizabeth and he's pretty happy about it. But do you

0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:34.119
<v Speaker 2>know what I'm happy about?

0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:38.280
<v Speaker 3>Is it the good folks who sponsor of this podcast.

0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:41.800
<v Speaker 2>I am very happy about the ability that I have

0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:44.800
<v Speaker 2>to feed my dog and myself. I actually have some

0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:47.680
<v Speaker 2>appreciation for the people who help me do that. Who

0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:50.000
<v Speaker 2>you if you want to appreciate even though they don't

0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:56.920
<v Speaker 2>feed your dog, you can choose to listen to Andrew back.

0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:02.040
<v Speaker 2>But instead of going back to college, Alan gets the

0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:03.920
<v Speaker 2>Library of Congress to send him to Haiti to record

0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:04.919
<v Speaker 2>music with Zorahurston.

0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:06.040
<v Speaker 3>Awesome.

0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:07.760
<v Speaker 2>It almost made you do a spittake.

0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:11.160
<v Speaker 3>I know, I was drinking water when she was saying that,

0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:15.359
<v Speaker 3>and I was not expecting it. Getting sent by the

0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:16.840
<v Speaker 3>Library of Congress to Haiti.

0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:19.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah no, Yeah. And Haiti in the nineteen thirties was

0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:21.680
<v Speaker 2>we're going to go with not exactly a tourist destination,

0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:26.000
<v Speaker 2>but the locals were glad to have the pair because

0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:29.200
<v Speaker 2>they considered documenting in preserving their traditions to be part

0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:33.920
<v Speaker 2>of how they would resist colonization in europeanization. And soon

0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:37.840
<v Speaker 2>he's there on his own, and he's just buried by possibility.

0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:41.639
<v Speaker 2>He's like everything is folk in America. You don't know

0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:45.080
<v Speaker 2>what's authentic When you're in Haiti in nineteen thirty and

0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:47.800
<v Speaker 2>you're a white guy from Texas, You're like, oh.

0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:50.159
<v Speaker 3>Fuck, it's all authentic to me.

0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:53.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And everything around him is folk because there is

0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:56.880
<v Speaker 2>a very strict class thing where that schools don't teach

0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:00.480
<v Speaker 2>creole and the constitution for bids vodu. But that's what

0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:04.320
<v Speaker 2>everyone speaks, and that's what everyone lives. That's Everyone's not everyone,

0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:07.280
<v Speaker 2>but it's most people's language and religion and so everything

0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:10.040
<v Speaker 2>it's not just folk, cause is different. It's folk because

0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:12.679
<v Speaker 2>it's like not allowed, you know, so there's like an

0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:16.800
<v Speaker 2>inherent rebelness to it. Yeah, and he is, i believe,

0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:20.720
<v Speaker 2>along with Hurston, the first to record these things, which

0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:24.240
<v Speaker 2>makes his recordings essential for modern folks who are trying

0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:27.119
<v Speaker 2>to understand their own culture. Right, So it's not this

0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:29.560
<v Speaker 2>is actually watching a bunch of YouTube videos of like

0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:34.800
<v Speaker 2>modern people using Lomax recordings to be able to continue

0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:37.760
<v Speaker 2>their own culture. That was like an interesting moment where

0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:41.440
<v Speaker 2>it's like not always just about a pipeline for your

0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:43.960
<v Speaker 2>shit to be exposed to the white world and sold

0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:48.399
<v Speaker 2>off Elizabeth the card caring communist. He's excited about joins

0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:51.159
<v Speaker 2>him in Haiti with the intention of getting married in

0:22:51.160 --> 0:22:55.600
<v Speaker 2>this exotic locale, but actually specifically one they liked it there,

0:22:55.640 --> 0:22:57.840
<v Speaker 2>and two they had to get away from his family

0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:03.320
<v Speaker 2>because John Loma, not a big fan of the card

0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:06.880
<v Speaker 2>carrying Communist that his son wants to marry.

0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:09.600
<v Speaker 3>Didn't love it, didn't Was it what he was expecting

0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:10.600
<v Speaker 3>for his son.

0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:15.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, now he's not into it. But they're not old enough.

0:23:15.200 --> 0:23:17.200
<v Speaker 2>I actually it's funny. I ended up covering the age

0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:19.399
<v Speaker 2>of consent and how America is really backwards about this

0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:22.280
<v Speaker 2>in recent episodes. God, what a fucking weird job I have.

0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:27.280
<v Speaker 2>But they weren't old enough to get married in Haiti

0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:28.520
<v Speaker 2>because they weren't twenty three.

0:23:30.160 --> 0:23:32.680
<v Speaker 3>Oh, in Haiti, the age of consent to marry is

0:23:32.720 --> 0:23:33.400
<v Speaker 3>twenty three.

0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:36.720
<v Speaker 2>Without parental permission in nineteen thirties. I cannot tell you

0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:40.719
<v Speaker 2>about what's happening currently, okay, And so he wrote his

0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:44.359
<v Speaker 2>dad to get permission, and it's like the whole letter

0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:48.000
<v Speaker 2>I read it, it's like he's very like, I don't

0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:50.680
<v Speaker 2>want to write this, You're not gonna like it. Can

0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:52.520
<v Speaker 2>you please fill out the following form and send it

0:23:52.560 --> 0:23:54.800
<v Speaker 2>with the following identification. So that I can get married,

0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:59.160
<v Speaker 2>and I don't think his dad responds. So instead, it's

0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:03.280
<v Speaker 2>easier they get the president of Haiti to waive the

0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:06.720
<v Speaker 2>age laws. She's like twenties, like twenty two, so that

0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:09.119
<v Speaker 2>they can get married in Haiti. It was easier to

0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:12.320
<v Speaker 2>get the fucking president of Haiti than John fucking Lomax

0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:13.400
<v Speaker 2>to approve of their.

0:24:13.280 --> 0:24:15.840
<v Speaker 3>You know how much your dad has to so super

0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:18.159
<v Speaker 3>fucking not approve to be like, we just got to

0:24:18.200 --> 0:24:20.080
<v Speaker 3>go to them. My dad's a non starter. We gotta

0:24:20.119 --> 0:24:21.320
<v Speaker 3>go to the President of Haiti.

0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:28.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, anyone could just do that. And so they

0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:30.880
<v Speaker 2>stay there. They live there for a little while, and

0:24:30.960 --> 0:24:33.480
<v Speaker 2>they live in a dirt floorhouse with leaves for a roof,

0:24:33.480 --> 0:24:35.360
<v Speaker 2>and it's all very exotic for them. And the two

0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:36.960
<v Speaker 2>of them get back to their work and soon they

0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:39.960
<v Speaker 2>are initiated into vodu, which at the time included being

0:24:40.000 --> 0:24:43.680
<v Speaker 2>buried alive briefly. And they're both soon sick with malaria,

0:24:43.760 --> 0:24:45.800
<v Speaker 2>and they're broke and they're having a hard time. And

0:24:45.960 --> 0:24:49.720
<v Speaker 2>Alan wrote, quote in Haiti, it is not a good

0:24:49.720 --> 0:24:52.639
<v Speaker 2>policy to grow weak and helpless and be broke. I

0:24:52.680 --> 0:24:56.840
<v Speaker 2>love that line. My formerly effective arguments could bring no singers.

0:24:56.840 --> 0:24:59.560
<v Speaker 2>Before the microphone, I had just enough money to buy

0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:01.840
<v Speaker 2>a little for the crowds that gathered each night at

0:25:01.840 --> 0:25:04.320
<v Speaker 2>the house to listen to the records being made, but

0:25:04.440 --> 0:25:07.000
<v Speaker 2>not enough to make them all respectful or consider it

0:25:07.480 --> 0:25:10.480
<v Speaker 2>invited into my house. They took possession of it. They

0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:12.960
<v Speaker 2>camped on all the chairs and refused to be moved.

0:25:13.119 --> 0:25:15.280
<v Speaker 2>They laughed and talked while the records were being made,

0:25:15.560 --> 0:25:18.920
<v Speaker 2>and no threats or wheedling reasons could stop their mouths.

0:25:19.400 --> 0:25:22.720
<v Speaker 2>Occasionally the gendarmes would descend from the bouquet and pretend

0:25:22.720 --> 0:25:25.200
<v Speaker 2>to clear the house, but it was only to occupy

0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:28.639
<v Speaker 2>the chairs themselves and add more undisciplined to the already

0:25:28.680 --> 0:25:34.440
<v Speaker 2>boisterous audience. I love this because it's so visceral, and

0:25:35.080 --> 0:25:38.000
<v Speaker 2>people are treating them like people and giving them some respect,

0:25:38.000 --> 0:25:39.679
<v Speaker 2>and their work was accepted. They're like, yeah, you can

0:25:39.760 --> 0:25:43.760
<v Speaker 2>do this. But people did not kiss their asses. People

0:25:43.800 --> 0:25:45.720
<v Speaker 2>are like, oh, you got nice shit. Fuck. Yeah, I'm

0:25:45.720 --> 0:25:46.320
<v Speaker 2>gonna hang out.

0:25:46.560 --> 0:25:48.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'm gonna lay on That'll put my feet on

0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:49.720
<v Speaker 3>this couch. I don't give a fuck.

0:25:49.800 --> 0:25:53.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Oh what are you gonna do? Sick white boy?

0:25:53.720 --> 0:25:55.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I will not be moved.

0:25:55.080 --> 0:25:55.359
<v Speaker 1>Altho.

0:25:55.840 --> 0:26:00.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like, I like appreciate that way that they were

0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:02.160
<v Speaker 2>handled by people. It feels I.

0:26:02.080 --> 0:26:05.159
<v Speaker 3>Don't know, yeah, And I bet they were thinking, oh,

0:26:05.200 --> 0:26:07.240
<v Speaker 3>these people are going to be so thrilled that we

0:26:07.359 --> 0:26:09.680
<v Speaker 3>even want anything to do with us, or there's going

0:26:09.720 --> 0:26:12.639
<v Speaker 3>to be automatic, like they're going to be differential, and

0:26:12.640 --> 0:26:15.399
<v Speaker 3>it's like, actually, no, yeah, they're gonna make themselves right

0:26:15.400 --> 0:26:15.639
<v Speaker 3>at home.

0:26:15.720 --> 0:26:18.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally sorry. They're folk, not non folk. You know.

0:26:20.320 --> 0:26:22.480
<v Speaker 2>After about four months, they just ran out of money

0:26:22.520 --> 0:26:24.840
<v Speaker 2>and they had to return to America, and they had

0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:28.080
<v Speaker 2>about fifty hours of audio recordings three hundred and fifty

0:26:28.119 --> 0:26:30.400
<v Speaker 2>feet of eight millimeter film, which I do not know

0:26:30.480 --> 0:26:33.560
<v Speaker 2>how much time that is, but that film shows day

0:26:33.600 --> 0:26:35.600
<v Speaker 2>to day life. It shows like people like how they

0:26:35.600 --> 0:26:37.600
<v Speaker 2>made their drums and how they did a bunch of stuff.

0:26:37.600 --> 0:26:39.399
<v Speaker 2>And it was like some of the first recordings of

0:26:39.400 --> 0:26:42.359
<v Speaker 2>this stuff. And he took a job at the Library

0:26:42.400 --> 0:26:45.119
<v Speaker 2>of Congress as assistant in charge of the Archive of

0:26:45.160 --> 0:26:50.600
<v Speaker 2>American Folk Song, and he and Elizabeth kept wandering recording songs,

0:26:51.160 --> 0:26:54.840
<v Speaker 2>and they were watching folk music disappear in front of

0:26:54.840 --> 0:26:57.480
<v Speaker 2>their eyes with the advent of radio right and recording.

0:26:58.200 --> 0:27:01.120
<v Speaker 2>And they went to a full folk festival in Ohio,

0:27:01.320 --> 0:27:05.119
<v Speaker 2>only to find it commercial hillbilly music. He complained about it,

0:27:05.160 --> 0:27:07.480
<v Speaker 2>as I love this never changes. Shit. This is also

0:27:07.560 --> 0:27:10.080
<v Speaker 2>like when people are like, oh, what styles of music

0:27:10.119 --> 0:27:11.520
<v Speaker 2>do you like? And I'm like, I like all styles

0:27:11.520 --> 0:27:13.680
<v Speaker 2>of music, So I don't really listen to radio country.

0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:15.919
<v Speaker 2>I say radio country on purpose because I like some

0:27:16.000 --> 0:27:19.280
<v Speaker 2>country music, you know. And so he complained about the

0:27:19.280 --> 0:27:25.440
<v Speaker 2>Ohio Hillbilly Music Festival as quote a huge drove of yodling, crooning,

0:27:25.520 --> 0:27:29.800
<v Speaker 2>Alabama mooning Kentuckians and quote the most horrible exhibition of

0:27:29.880 --> 0:27:34.600
<v Speaker 2>Anglo American blonde, blue eyed sentimentalism and musical gashery. I

0:27:34.640 --> 0:27:41.760
<v Speaker 2>have ever endured what a fucking burn totally, And I'm like, oh,

0:27:41.800 --> 0:27:44.240
<v Speaker 2>that's just that's radio country.

0:27:44.520 --> 0:27:45.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you know.

0:27:45.600 --> 0:27:48.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, now some radio country got interesting again because

0:27:48.040 --> 0:27:49.919
<v Speaker 2>once again it's stole some shit from black people.

0:27:50.240 --> 0:27:54.680
<v Speaker 3>But the few times I've listened to radio country, it does.

0:27:54.720 --> 0:27:57.040
<v Speaker 3>I mean, like, and I really don't know. I would

0:27:57.040 --> 0:28:00.240
<v Speaker 3>love somebody to explain the difference. To me. It's sounds

0:28:00.359 --> 0:28:02.959
<v Speaker 3>like rap music. It just sounds like, oh, it's the

0:28:03.000 --> 0:28:07.240
<v Speaker 3>same thing, but like we're talking about country girl shaking

0:28:07.320 --> 0:28:09.159
<v Speaker 3>that butt on the hood. Of a Truck, which is

0:28:09.359 --> 0:28:11.720
<v Speaker 3>a real song by the way I heard. Yeah, I mean,

0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:13.520
<v Speaker 3>I'm curious, like what's the difference.

0:28:13.160 --> 0:28:15.679
<v Speaker 2>Really, I guess I should clarify when I say radio country,

0:28:15.720 --> 0:28:17.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean in the nineties and oughts, when I was

0:28:17.640 --> 0:28:21.200
<v Speaker 2>like younger, when it wasn't as much influenced by rap

0:28:21.200 --> 0:28:22.800
<v Speaker 2>and hip hop. And that's what I was saying, is

0:28:22.800 --> 0:28:24.359
<v Speaker 2>like some of it's actually are right now because they

0:28:24.480 --> 0:28:27.560
<v Speaker 2>stole more shit from black people. Yeah yeah, but like

0:28:28.359 --> 0:28:30.359
<v Speaker 2>I would also need someone to explain to me what

0:28:30.920 --> 0:28:33.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean. It kind of gets into like the audience

0:28:34.000 --> 0:28:37.439
<v Speaker 2>is often what creates the difference. Like everything is a

0:28:37.440 --> 0:28:40.840
<v Speaker 2>social construct, Like one of my favorite ways to be

0:28:40.880 --> 0:28:42.720
<v Speaker 2>like everything is a social construct. People like, nah, things

0:28:42.720 --> 0:28:44.640
<v Speaker 2>are really physical and specific, and I'm like, how many

0:28:44.680 --> 0:28:51.360
<v Speaker 2>fucking continents are there, Like, oh yeah, Europe, Asia, Uh huh,

0:28:51.400 --> 0:28:55.240
<v Speaker 2>it's different culture. It is a social construct, so right,

0:28:55.280 --> 0:28:57.920
<v Speaker 2>it would make sense to me that like country music

0:28:58.000 --> 0:29:01.240
<v Speaker 2>is a social construct. Oh God, I'm gonna get it wrong.

0:29:01.760 --> 0:29:05.640
<v Speaker 2>So one of the first originators of modern country music

0:29:05.920 --> 0:29:08.400
<v Speaker 2>was a white racist in the South who had like

0:29:08.440 --> 0:29:10.760
<v Speaker 2>started off friends with black people and then they were

0:29:10.760 --> 0:29:12.880
<v Speaker 2>like mean to him at work and so then he

0:29:13.720 --> 0:29:15.880
<v Speaker 2>went off and started his racist career and now I

0:29:15.880 --> 0:29:17.640
<v Speaker 2>can't remember. So now I'm just talking shit in an

0:29:17.720 --> 0:29:20.600
<v Speaker 2>entire genre that so many of my friends, like so

0:29:20.760 --> 0:29:22.480
<v Speaker 2>many of my friends are into country music.

0:29:23.000 --> 0:29:24.719
<v Speaker 3>Well, I know this is not who you meant, but

0:29:24.720 --> 0:29:28.080
<v Speaker 3>that's essentially the origin story of one mister kid Rock

0:29:28.160 --> 0:29:31.520
<v Speaker 3>who started as a rap artist. Literally, that is his

0:29:31.600 --> 0:29:32.360
<v Speaker 3>origin story.

0:29:33.680 --> 0:29:39.360
<v Speaker 2>That doesn't surprise me at all. Fuck that guy. So

0:29:40.160 --> 0:29:42.440
<v Speaker 2>one of the next things that he does is he

0:29:42.440 --> 0:29:46.920
<v Speaker 2>helps and emphasism helps invent oral history as a concept

0:29:47.200 --> 0:29:49.560
<v Speaker 2>I promised you. And he does this with a singer

0:29:49.640 --> 0:29:53.480
<v Speaker 2>named jelly Roll Morton Jazz is first a ranger, like

0:29:53.480 --> 0:29:56.240
<v Speaker 2>the first person who actually wrote the notes down, and

0:29:56.400 --> 0:29:59.320
<v Speaker 2>he also possibly takes credit well he certainly he was

0:29:59.360 --> 0:30:02.200
<v Speaker 2>willing to take and possibly deserves to take credit for

0:30:02.280 --> 0:30:05.560
<v Speaker 2>inventing jazz swing and stomp and is one of the

0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:09.640
<v Speaker 2>first people to call a song blues and so Alan

0:30:09.640 --> 0:30:12.480
<v Speaker 2>Lomax and Jelly Roll is like no longer like important

0:30:12.520 --> 0:30:14.080
<v Speaker 2>at this time, and he's very bitter about it. As

0:30:14.080 --> 0:30:17.360
<v Speaker 2>a club that he runs by himself, and they do

0:30:17.560 --> 0:30:20.720
<v Speaker 2>eight hour sessions of music and talking and it's like

0:30:20.800 --> 0:30:24.240
<v Speaker 2>kind of like explaining jazz, and so it becomes oral history.

0:30:24.600 --> 0:30:27.600
<v Speaker 2>It starts off as a music recording, but it naturally

0:30:27.640 --> 0:30:32.960
<v Speaker 2>becomes a talking about what's happening. And some of these

0:30:33.000 --> 0:30:36.080
<v Speaker 2>sessions were so explicit that the Library of Congress didn't

0:30:36.080 --> 0:30:39.440
<v Speaker 2>make them public until two thousand and five, which is

0:30:39.440 --> 0:30:44.080
<v Speaker 2>funny because I didn't know this jelly roll was slang

0:30:44.120 --> 0:30:46.680
<v Speaker 2>at the time. For you know, pussy.

0:30:49.000 --> 0:30:49.520
<v Speaker 3>I didn't know.

0:30:49.680 --> 0:30:53.960
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, famous country singer now that same jelly roll?

0:30:54.240 --> 0:30:58.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Really is he copying jelly roll Morton? Or is he?

0:30:58.880 --> 0:31:00.720
<v Speaker 4>I don't care enough about him to know.

0:31:01.160 --> 0:31:05.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but I can look it up. Probably he's not.

0:31:06.120 --> 0:31:07.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't know anything about this person. I'm not going

0:31:07.880 --> 0:31:10.280
<v Speaker 2>to pine one way or the other about the modern

0:31:10.360 --> 0:31:12.920
<v Speaker 2>jelly roll. But no, it was.

0:31:13.200 --> 0:31:15.640
<v Speaker 4>He was given the name because he was a chubby

0:31:15.720 --> 0:31:18.320
<v Speaker 4>kid with a fondness for donuts. His mother gave it

0:31:18.360 --> 0:31:23.400
<v Speaker 4>to a boring Yeah, God, I like your version better.

0:31:26.600 --> 0:31:29.800
<v Speaker 2>Alan also recorded the ethnic whites who were not being

0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:32.720
<v Speaker 2>included in a lot of the cultural recordings at the time.

0:31:32.760 --> 0:31:35.960
<v Speaker 2>He went to Irish communities and Polish communities. He recorded

0:31:35.960 --> 0:31:39.960
<v Speaker 2>French balladiers, and his whole thing is he was like,

0:31:40.000 --> 0:31:42.480
<v Speaker 2>I have to rush and record these people before all

0:31:42.480 --> 0:31:46.120
<v Speaker 2>of their music is assimilated into playing American pop music,

0:31:46.160 --> 0:31:49.400
<v Speaker 2>which at the time was jazz and square dance. And

0:31:49.440 --> 0:31:50.960
<v Speaker 2>so like all of these musicians if you want to

0:31:51.000 --> 0:31:53.760
<v Speaker 2>make a living or playing jazz and square dance music.

0:31:55.840 --> 0:31:58.840
<v Speaker 2>And he's doing this for the Library of Congress, and

0:31:58.880 --> 0:32:01.320
<v Speaker 2>he has to account for every penny he spends in

0:32:01.400 --> 0:32:04.800
<v Speaker 2>the like when he's doing all of this stuff, it's

0:32:04.800 --> 0:32:08.440
<v Speaker 2>shoestring budget, you know, it's like not technically DIY, but

0:32:08.480 --> 0:32:13.640
<v Speaker 2>it's like shoe string in New York. The scene he's

0:32:13.680 --> 0:32:16.920
<v Speaker 2>in throws festivals to support the Spanish anti fascists and

0:32:17.480 --> 0:32:19.800
<v Speaker 2>Friend of the Pod the Spanish Civil War nineteen thirty

0:32:19.840 --> 0:32:22.520
<v Speaker 2>six to nineteen thirty nine. Maybe people have heard of it.

0:32:22.560 --> 0:32:24.320
<v Speaker 2>If not, they should check out more or less the

0:32:24.480 --> 0:32:26.040
<v Speaker 2>entire first two years that they did this show.

0:32:26.760 --> 0:32:29.680
<v Speaker 3>I was gonna ask, like, the whole war is Friend

0:32:29.720 --> 0:32:30.200
<v Speaker 3>of the Pod.

0:32:30.520 --> 0:32:32.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, No, it's just well one it comes up all

0:32:32.600 --> 0:32:35.640
<v Speaker 2>the time because it's kind of interesting. Partly, I'm just

0:32:35.680 --> 0:32:38.080
<v Speaker 2>really interested in it because it's the you know, high

0:32:38.120 --> 0:32:41.760
<v Speaker 2>water mark. Unfortunately, to say, of the ideology that I'm

0:32:41.800 --> 0:32:45.240
<v Speaker 2>most interested in, which is like anarchist communism where huge

0:32:45.280 --> 0:32:48.480
<v Speaker 2>chunk of Catalonia was able to People have heard me

0:32:48.480 --> 0:32:50.680
<v Speaker 2>give this rant a million times, but for about three years,

0:32:50.760 --> 0:32:53.800
<v Speaker 2>workers organize themselves in a non hierarchical socialist fashion, and

0:32:53.800 --> 0:32:56.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm very interested in it. But it specifically, it comes

0:32:56.160 --> 0:32:58.520
<v Speaker 2>up all the time because even though it's like largely

0:32:58.520 --> 0:33:01.600
<v Speaker 2>forgotten because it's over, World War two had a tendency

0:33:01.640 --> 0:33:05.280
<v Speaker 2>to make people forget everything, you know, because it was

0:33:05.360 --> 0:33:08.240
<v Speaker 2>kind of a big deal. But this was the anti

0:33:08.280 --> 0:33:11.520
<v Speaker 2>fascist fight that had everyone, like everyone who's paying attention to, like, oh,

0:33:11.560 --> 0:33:14.680
<v Speaker 2>fascism is on the rise. So the Spanish Civil War

0:33:14.760 --> 0:33:17.000
<v Speaker 2>was like the cause celebrit I know how to spell it,

0:33:17.000 --> 0:33:20.120
<v Speaker 2>but I don't want to pronounce it cause celebrity at

0:33:20.160 --> 0:33:24.640
<v Speaker 2>the time. So he's raising money for it. He also

0:33:24.680 --> 0:33:27.480
<v Speaker 2>plays union rallies and local bars, but he refuses he

0:33:27.600 --> 0:33:30.280
<v Speaker 2>like is playing shows two but he's like, I am

0:33:30.320 --> 0:33:32.880
<v Speaker 2>not a musician. That's not my thing. I refuse to

0:33:32.880 --> 0:33:36.080
<v Speaker 2>get paid more than food or drink. He started going

0:33:36.080 --> 0:33:38.480
<v Speaker 2>to grad school at Columbia, but he dropped out of

0:33:38.560 --> 0:33:41.000
<v Speaker 2>college to help raise money for Howe, he led better

0:33:41.040 --> 0:33:43.320
<v Speaker 2>after the guy got arrested again for knife fighting again,

0:33:43.840 --> 0:33:46.160
<v Speaker 2>probably in self defense. But you know, I don't know.

0:33:47.000 --> 0:33:49.680
<v Speaker 2>He started working in radio, and he basically has like

0:33:49.680 --> 0:33:51.480
<v Speaker 2>a which way do you want to go? Moment, like

0:33:51.480 --> 0:33:54.360
<v Speaker 2>a little little meme with the two castles, you know.

0:33:55.000 --> 0:33:59.440
<v Speaker 2>And he starts working in radio, teaching school children about

0:33:59.440 --> 0:34:03.400
<v Speaker 2>folk music, and he's skeptical about the program, but he

0:34:03.480 --> 0:34:05.360
<v Speaker 2>is glad for a chance to get to pay artists.

0:34:05.520 --> 0:34:08.040
<v Speaker 2>And there's this whole thing. I had no idea that

0:34:08.120 --> 0:34:10.080
<v Speaker 2>musician who was like, why would I let you record me?

0:34:10.160 --> 0:34:13.680
<v Speaker 2>You'll just play that instead. The musicians' unions in the

0:34:13.719 --> 0:34:17.120
<v Speaker 2>thirties and I think forties fought and successfully had for

0:34:17.160 --> 0:34:22.520
<v Speaker 2>a while radio couldn't play recorded music. Radio played people

0:34:22.560 --> 0:34:26.360
<v Speaker 2>playing music. Bands would come into the station and play

0:34:27.480 --> 0:34:29.640
<v Speaker 2>I had no fucking idea.

0:34:29.760 --> 0:34:32.480
<v Speaker 3>I didn't either. And if we're thinking about you know,

0:34:32.520 --> 0:34:35.120
<v Speaker 3>I really resonated with this idea of someone saying, oh,

0:34:35.120 --> 0:34:37.239
<v Speaker 3>why would I let you record me? You're just going

0:34:37.320 --> 0:34:39.960
<v Speaker 3>to play that recording instead of paying me to play. Ye.

0:34:40.520 --> 0:34:42.680
<v Speaker 3>This is very interesting. It's like we're still having the

0:34:42.719 --> 0:34:45.920
<v Speaker 3>same conversations today as to pertain tech technology like AI.

0:34:46.239 --> 0:34:50.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, totally. And so even when he's playing folk

0:34:50.120 --> 0:34:53.359
<v Speaker 2>music on the radio, he's literally playing it because he's

0:34:53.360 --> 0:34:55.320
<v Speaker 2>gone around and collected all these songs and he learns

0:34:55.360 --> 0:34:58.160
<v Speaker 2>these songs or whenever possible, and he does seem to

0:34:58.160 --> 0:34:59.840
<v Speaker 2>do this as much as he can. He brings me

0:35:00.000 --> 0:35:02.759
<v Speaker 2>psitions on and gives them the money, right, and so

0:35:02.800 --> 0:35:05.560
<v Speaker 2>it's like folk music is meant to be played. Even

0:35:05.600 --> 0:35:08.400
<v Speaker 2>his recordings, a lot of it is about transcription. And

0:35:08.440 --> 0:35:10.759
<v Speaker 2>so there's like all of this stuff about that didn't

0:35:10.800 --> 0:35:12.600
<v Speaker 2>end up in my script, but there's all these arguments

0:35:12.640 --> 0:35:15.960
<v Speaker 2>about all of these different folklorists going through the Lomax recordings.

0:35:16.000 --> 0:35:17.239
<v Speaker 2>Because he kind of gets all the credit, but there's

0:35:17.239 --> 0:35:19.799
<v Speaker 2>all these women who helped do all the transcriptions, and

0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:21.880
<v Speaker 2>I didn't include them in the script. Fuck me, But

0:35:21.920 --> 0:35:23.759
<v Speaker 2>that's because I wasn't as interested in as transcriptions. But

0:35:23.800 --> 0:35:26.120
<v Speaker 2>maybe that's the problem because it's behind the scenes where

0:35:26.640 --> 0:35:31.279
<v Speaker 2>and they're arguing about how they transcribe music that does

0:35:31.400 --> 0:35:35.440
<v Speaker 2>not meet Western ideas, right, Like you're like, oh, is

0:35:36.040 --> 0:35:38.480
<v Speaker 2>this twelve bars or twelve and a half bars? And

0:35:38.480 --> 0:35:40.280
<v Speaker 2>the person's like, man, I don't know, I play guitar.

0:35:40.560 --> 0:35:44.120
<v Speaker 2>What do you want you know? And then he gets

0:35:44.120 --> 0:35:46.640
<v Speaker 2>to play a show that I don't know anyone else

0:35:46.640 --> 0:35:49.640
<v Speaker 2>who's ever played. He played for the Roosevelts and the

0:35:49.719 --> 0:35:51.960
<v Speaker 2>King and Queen of England at one show at the

0:35:51.960 --> 0:35:56.640
<v Speaker 2>White House at twenty four years old. Wah, but remember

0:35:56.680 --> 0:35:58.640
<v Speaker 2>how he's kind of a communist. He's actually not a

0:35:58.640 --> 0:36:02.160
<v Speaker 2>card carrying communist. He no longer capitalizes the sea and

0:36:02.239 --> 0:36:04.120
<v Speaker 2>draws flames spitting out of the letters.

0:36:04.200 --> 0:36:07.200
<v Speaker 3>You know he's not doing this, does the s anymore? Yeah,

0:36:07.280 --> 0:36:08.880
<v Speaker 3>the communist.

0:36:09.320 --> 0:36:12.239
<v Speaker 2>That's the real way to know someone's in the Communist

0:36:12.280 --> 0:36:16.160
<v Speaker 2>Party is they use the cool less in the Communism,

0:36:16.920 --> 0:36:20.879
<v Speaker 2>whatever the ideology. If the Essenism is a cool less,

0:36:20.960 --> 0:36:25.080
<v Speaker 2>you know they're fucking down for the cause they're down. Yeah. Unfortunately,

0:36:26.560 --> 0:36:31.359
<v Speaker 2>the FBI is like they get a tip and one

0:36:31.440 --> 0:36:33.160
<v Speaker 2>version is that like it was a friend of the

0:36:33.160 --> 0:36:36.160
<v Speaker 2>family who over heard him talking to his dad. Another

0:36:36.239 --> 0:36:38.719
<v Speaker 2>version is it was his dad. They get a tip

0:36:38.719 --> 0:36:42.920
<v Speaker 2>that he's a communist, So the FBI detains him and

0:36:43.000 --> 0:36:45.359
<v Speaker 2>searches him in a stairwell. Like they it's not even

0:36:45.400 --> 0:36:47.920
<v Speaker 2>like searched on the way in. He's like going through

0:36:47.920 --> 0:36:50.480
<v Speaker 2>a stairwell and two plane clothes officers come up behind

0:36:50.520 --> 0:36:52.560
<v Speaker 2>and in front of him and like search him and

0:36:52.600 --> 0:36:56.880
<v Speaker 2>inquisite and inquisitate him, ask him questions, Oh no, that

0:36:57.000 --> 0:37:00.440
<v Speaker 2>is a bad vibe I do right before or he

0:37:00.480 --> 0:37:03.120
<v Speaker 2>has to go play for the fucking King and Queen

0:37:03.160 --> 0:37:08.960
<v Speaker 2>of England. So he's he's shaken and he's so nervous

0:37:08.960 --> 0:37:12.920
<v Speaker 2>while he's playing that. Eleanor Roosevelt mentioned it in her autobiography,

0:37:16.440 --> 0:37:19.560
<v Speaker 2>and for the next thirty years the FBI is going

0:37:19.600 --> 0:37:23.520
<v Speaker 2>to be investigating him. And no one who the FBI

0:37:23.560 --> 0:37:27.000
<v Speaker 2>interviews about him ever admits he's a communist, is what

0:37:27.080 --> 0:37:29.640
<v Speaker 2>one thing said. Another thing said that his dad did,

0:37:29.760 --> 0:37:32.319
<v Speaker 2>or his uncle, but whatever. People keep being like this

0:37:32.320 --> 0:37:35.040
<v Speaker 2>guy communists. People are like, nah, not really, it's fine,

0:37:35.640 --> 0:37:37.840
<v Speaker 2>and so no insnitcheing on him. And he's also like

0:37:38.120 --> 0:37:40.200
<v Speaker 2>not in the Communist Party because it is a huge

0:37:41.000 --> 0:37:44.000
<v Speaker 2>and complicated difference because at the time the Communist Party

0:37:44.080 --> 0:37:48.759
<v Speaker 2>was literally takes direction from the Soviet Union, right, and

0:37:48.840 --> 0:37:50.960
<v Speaker 2>so saying I am a Communist at the Capital C

0:37:51.520 --> 0:37:54.200
<v Speaker 2>means like, I am part of a hierarchical structure that

0:37:54.239 --> 0:37:56.560
<v Speaker 2>takes orders from the Soviet Union, whereas he being like,

0:37:56.719 --> 0:37:59.040
<v Speaker 2>I believe in communism from each accordion to ability to

0:37:59.080 --> 0:38:02.640
<v Speaker 2>each accordion, a need and maybe have mixed feelings about

0:38:02.640 --> 0:38:06.200
<v Speaker 2>the Communist Party. It's a very common sentiment, and I

0:38:06.239 --> 0:38:08.000
<v Speaker 2>feel like, got to play for the King and Queen,

0:38:08.040 --> 0:38:09.719
<v Speaker 2>but it was also detained by the FBI for being

0:38:09.719 --> 0:38:12.440
<v Speaker 2>a Communist while doing it. Pretty much encapsulates so much

0:38:12.480 --> 0:38:17.319
<v Speaker 2>about this man's life. Yes, he was something of a

0:38:17.320 --> 0:38:20.239
<v Speaker 2>sensation at this point as a radio personality. He was

0:38:20.280 --> 0:38:22.759
<v Speaker 2>offered the chance to retreat into academia. This is his

0:38:22.800 --> 0:38:26.480
<v Speaker 2>two Castle's moment. But he's He's like, I actually don't

0:38:26.560 --> 0:38:29.080
<v Speaker 2>just want to be a folklorist. I'm not just interested

0:38:29.080 --> 0:38:32.719
<v Speaker 2>in the academic study of folk music. Basically, someone's like, hey,

0:38:32.719 --> 0:38:35.080
<v Speaker 2>come to Brazil and study indigenous people with me, and

0:38:35.120 --> 0:38:38.600
<v Speaker 2>he's like, what if instead I want to be involved

0:38:38.640 --> 0:38:40.920
<v Speaker 2>with communicating with people about folk music. And he's like,

0:38:41.040 --> 0:38:45.840
<v Speaker 2>much more interested in radio and TV in popular education.

0:38:46.920 --> 0:38:50.279
<v Speaker 2>I like him, But do you know what else I like?

0:38:50.840 --> 0:38:54.520
<v Speaker 2>Tell me, I like all of the products and services

0:38:54.560 --> 0:38:56.480
<v Speaker 2>that support this show, even the ones that I don't like.

0:38:57.160 --> 0:38:59.600
<v Speaker 3>Great, let's hear more about them.

0:38:59.480 --> 0:39:07.320
<v Speaker 2>All right. I'm glad you asked, And we're back during

0:39:07.360 --> 0:39:11.839
<v Speaker 2>World War Two. First, on his own time, he helps

0:39:11.880 --> 0:39:15.400
<v Speaker 2>design musical propaganda and songbooks for the troops all tied

0:39:15.440 --> 0:39:19.920
<v Speaker 2>into national folk heroes. So he like because he's always

0:39:19.960 --> 0:39:21.840
<v Speaker 2>been interested in anti fascism and now it's like a

0:39:21.840 --> 0:39:24.240
<v Speaker 2>government run project and he's like, yeah, okay, whatever, whatever

0:39:24.280 --> 0:39:28.240
<v Speaker 2>fucking takes. And so he's doing all of this work

0:39:28.680 --> 0:39:32.719
<v Speaker 2>to connect with different like ethnic enclaves in America and

0:39:32.800 --> 0:39:35.440
<v Speaker 2>finding folk heroes that they're going to like resonate with

0:39:35.640 --> 0:39:40.040
<v Speaker 2>and tie it into anti fascism propaganda is so weird.

0:39:40.480 --> 0:39:42.759
<v Speaker 2>So like the white people get Davy Crockett and the

0:39:42.800 --> 0:39:45.360
<v Speaker 2>black people get John Henry, and he's like going through

0:39:45.480 --> 0:39:48.120
<v Speaker 2>and like finding all the songs and being like, here's

0:39:48.160 --> 0:39:50.680
<v Speaker 2>the songs and how they tie into America hates fascists,

0:39:51.239 --> 0:39:55.760
<v Speaker 2>and he's writing patriotic songbooks about killing Nazis while also

0:39:55.920 --> 0:40:00.480
<v Speaker 2>organizing singing groups called like the Union Boys sick name

0:40:00.520 --> 0:40:05.800
<v Speaker 2>for a band, I'll fa yeah. And in the process

0:40:05.960 --> 0:40:07.880
<v Speaker 2>during all of this, he ends up in a screaming

0:40:07.880 --> 0:40:09.520
<v Speaker 2>match with his father. He's like talking to his dad

0:40:09.520 --> 0:40:11.799
<v Speaker 2>about the same shit he's always his dad's probably has

0:40:11.840 --> 0:40:13.919
<v Speaker 2>your life, and he's like, black people haven't really bad

0:40:13.960 --> 0:40:17.120
<v Speaker 2>in the South, dad, and this drives his father into

0:40:17.160 --> 0:40:21.400
<v Speaker 2>a screaming rage, who yells you have disgraced the South,

0:40:22.239 --> 0:40:24.520
<v Speaker 2>not the whole South, the whole South.

0:40:24.760 --> 0:40:28.080
<v Speaker 3>I love how much father issues are a thread through

0:40:28.160 --> 0:40:28.880
<v Speaker 3>his story.

0:40:29.239 --> 0:40:32.040
<v Speaker 2>I know, because his father is just like, how dare

0:40:32.080 --> 0:40:34.040
<v Speaker 2>you say that? Like white Southerners are racist?

0:40:34.680 --> 0:40:36.280
<v Speaker 3>You all have disgraced the South.

0:40:37.000 --> 0:40:41.279
<v Speaker 2>Even though his father once wrote a fake autobiography by

0:40:41.360 --> 0:40:43.640
<v Speaker 2>Lead Belly and that used I'm gonna get the numbers

0:40:43.640 --> 0:40:46.279
<v Speaker 2>exactly wrong because it's not script. I don't really care

0:40:46.360 --> 0:40:49.360
<v Speaker 2>what his dad thinks. His dad sucks, his dad raises

0:40:49.360 --> 0:40:52.439
<v Speaker 2>a shit, but his dad like like son says something

0:40:52.440 --> 0:40:55.040
<v Speaker 2>on the radio about like, oh, this one black man

0:40:55.120 --> 0:40:57.440
<v Speaker 2>was pulled over for being black. So dad goes in

0:40:57.480 --> 0:41:00.000
<v Speaker 2>and investigates. It's like, actually, this man was pulled up

0:41:00.239 --> 0:41:02.200
<v Speaker 2>for this other reason. It just happened to be black

0:41:02.200 --> 0:41:05.520
<v Speaker 2>in this one particular case. Your whole argument is invalid.

0:41:05.920 --> 0:41:07.839
<v Speaker 2>And he probably sounded exactly like that at the time.

0:41:08.120 --> 0:41:10.759
<v Speaker 3>I'm sure people listening are like, oh, that sounds I

0:41:10.800 --> 0:41:13.960
<v Speaker 3>can relate to sitting with my dad at a dinner table,

0:41:14.000 --> 0:41:15.560
<v Speaker 3>and that's exactly how my dad sounds.

0:41:15.600 --> 0:41:19.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I really won the family lottery. I don't talking

0:41:19.040 --> 0:41:21.200
<v Speaker 2>about my family on air, but I really won that lottery.

0:41:21.239 --> 0:41:26.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm real happy. So he has like really mixed feelings

0:41:26.200 --> 0:41:29.080
<v Speaker 2>about his personal involvement in the war, which is reasonable,

0:41:29.680 --> 0:41:33.000
<v Speaker 2>Like he spends a while finding jobs that'll defer him

0:41:33.040 --> 0:41:35.400
<v Speaker 2>from going to the front because he's like, I like

0:41:35.480 --> 0:41:38.840
<v Speaker 2>being alive. That's like a thing. But every now and

0:41:38.840 --> 0:41:40.719
<v Speaker 2>then he's like, no, fuck it, I should just join

0:41:40.840 --> 0:41:44.279
<v Speaker 2>up and kill fascists. But in nineteen forty two, while

0:41:44.280 --> 0:41:46.440
<v Speaker 2>he's working his ass off for the war effort, the

0:41:46.520 --> 0:41:49.799
<v Speaker 2>FBI starts questioning him directly about whether he's a member

0:41:49.800 --> 0:41:52.000
<v Speaker 2>of the Communist Party, which he wasn't, So he said

0:41:52.000 --> 0:41:54.120
<v Speaker 2>he wasn't, and he wound up on a list of

0:41:54.160 --> 0:41:59.279
<v Speaker 2>alleged communists for the Committee investigating on American activities. But

0:41:59.360 --> 0:42:03.160
<v Speaker 2>the FBI, what they wrote about him is really interesting

0:42:03.200 --> 0:42:05.440
<v Speaker 2>because the FBI kind of actually had his number in

0:42:05.440 --> 0:42:07.960
<v Speaker 2>a weird way. But they think it's bad. Whatever, I'll

0:42:08.000 --> 0:42:11.680
<v Speaker 2>just read it. He was possessed of an artistic temperament,

0:42:11.960 --> 0:42:16.400
<v Speaker 2>a bohemian, single mindedly devoted to folk music, ornery. He

0:42:16.520 --> 0:42:19.080
<v Speaker 2>was not discreet in his choice of words and was

0:42:19.160 --> 0:42:23.080
<v Speaker 2>slovenly in his appearance. He was intensely interested in negro

0:42:23.200 --> 0:42:27.160
<v Speaker 2>and underprivileged classes. Was sometimes slow to pay his rent,

0:42:27.440 --> 0:42:30.400
<v Speaker 2>had several arguments with his father on the Negro question,

0:42:30.760 --> 0:42:33.920
<v Speaker 2>wherein he termed his father as a fascist and himself

0:42:33.960 --> 0:42:37.120
<v Speaker 2>as a communist on this question, his father being anti

0:42:37.200 --> 0:42:39.880
<v Speaker 2>Negro minded, and he was known to associate with a

0:42:39.920 --> 0:42:42.200
<v Speaker 2>Negro by the name of Leadbelly who was released from

0:42:42.239 --> 0:42:46.600
<v Speaker 2>a Southern penitentiary. He I'm no longer quoting. He had

0:42:46.600 --> 0:42:50.359
<v Speaker 2>a suspicious number of books. But they decided in the end,

0:42:50.400 --> 0:42:52.080
<v Speaker 2>this is why I think they had his number, that

0:42:52.200 --> 0:42:55.080
<v Speaker 2>he was too undisciplined and independent to be loyal to

0:42:55.080 --> 0:42:58.400
<v Speaker 2>a political party, So instead of arresting him, they just

0:42:58.440 --> 0:43:00.560
<v Speaker 2>tailed him for yeah, thirty years.

0:43:01.560 --> 0:43:04.520
<v Speaker 3>It does kind of sound like they had his number. Also,

0:43:04.880 --> 0:43:10.560
<v Speaker 3>that's a pretty lit description of somebody lots of books. Yeah,

0:43:10.600 --> 0:43:15.080
<v Speaker 3>you know, very slovenly didn't always pay his rent on time,

0:43:15.120 --> 0:43:17.200
<v Speaker 3>you know how it is. I was like, oh shit,

0:43:17.200 --> 0:43:18.080
<v Speaker 3>all right, all right.

0:43:18.080 --> 0:43:21.680
<v Speaker 2>Like we both know this man. You know I've dated this. Yeah,

0:43:21.800 --> 0:43:23.840
<v Speaker 2>I know the guy totally.

0:43:24.040 --> 0:43:26.760
<v Speaker 3>You're right. It does sound like the FBI had his number.

0:43:26.880 --> 0:43:29.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And it's so interesting to me that like genuinely

0:43:29.920 --> 0:43:31.440
<v Speaker 2>they were like, well he probably is like kind of

0:43:31.440 --> 0:43:34.239
<v Speaker 2>a socialist or whatever. But he's like clearly not actually organized.

0:43:34.800 --> 0:43:36.680
<v Speaker 2>It's like fine and not fine all at once.

0:43:37.160 --> 0:43:39.800
<v Speaker 3>You know, he's not gonna get it together to actually

0:43:39.840 --> 0:43:40.480
<v Speaker 3>do anything.

0:43:40.560 --> 0:43:43.000
<v Speaker 2>We don't think, Yeah, which is funny because he's working

0:43:43.040 --> 0:43:45.080
<v Speaker 2>for the government. He's part of why he's being investigated

0:43:45.120 --> 0:43:48.960
<v Speaker 2>so much, probably, but like he writes patriotic songbooks for

0:43:49.000 --> 0:43:51.719
<v Speaker 2>a living. At this point about how like you know,

0:43:51.960 --> 0:43:55.160
<v Speaker 2>Davy Crockett wants you to join the war effort and

0:43:55.200 --> 0:43:57.640
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen forty four, and I actually really appreciate this

0:43:58.160 --> 0:44:00.440
<v Speaker 2>if you're going to write propaganda, but how you should

0:44:00.440 --> 0:44:03.560
<v Speaker 2>go to war? In nineteen forty four, he decided to

0:44:03.560 --> 0:44:06.719
<v Speaker 2>have his employer cancel his draft deferment and so he

0:44:06.800 --> 0:44:10.040
<v Speaker 2>was drafted into the army. He had a bit of

0:44:10.080 --> 0:44:14.920
<v Speaker 2>a rough time socially because he joins the army, it's

0:44:14.920 --> 0:44:18.160
<v Speaker 2>a segregated army, and he has the habit of punching

0:44:18.239 --> 0:44:20.080
<v Speaker 2>every white soldier who says the N word.

0:44:20.880 --> 0:44:24.879
<v Speaker 3>Ah the forties, probably like all of them, and.

0:44:24.880 --> 0:44:27.880
<v Speaker 2>So like there's like a story where he's like I

0:44:27.920 --> 0:44:30.320
<v Speaker 2>was watching him at a cafe and he physically threw

0:44:30.400 --> 0:44:32.400
<v Speaker 2>a man out of the cafe into the street, and

0:44:32.600 --> 0:44:34.920
<v Speaker 2>the man came back and said sorry, sorry, sorry, but

0:44:35.360 --> 0:44:38.680
<v Speaker 2>I just don't like sitting next to black people. Didn't

0:44:38.719 --> 0:44:40.840
<v Speaker 2>say that, and so he gets punched for that, and

0:44:40.880 --> 0:44:43.759
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, the man he just threw out apologizes to

0:44:43.840 --> 0:44:46.400
<v Speaker 2>him that keeps being racist. So he attacks him a

0:44:46.400 --> 0:44:47.040
<v Speaker 2>second time.

0:44:47.160 --> 0:44:50.440
<v Speaker 3>That is like, the could skit? I just I just

0:44:50.600 --> 0:44:53.040
<v Speaker 3>kept going at him. He wouldn't stab.

0:44:53.440 --> 0:44:55.520
<v Speaker 2>You'd be like, I don't get it. You're a white soldier.

0:44:55.560 --> 0:44:57.520
<v Speaker 2>Why can't I say racist shit in front of you?

0:44:58.400 --> 0:45:01.720
<v Speaker 3>Punch? Yeah.

0:45:01.880 --> 0:45:04.040
<v Speaker 2>I and a friend who used to kick people in

0:45:04.080 --> 0:45:05.800
<v Speaker 2>the nuts when they call people packets.

0:45:08.120 --> 0:45:09.960
<v Speaker 3>They probably learned though eventually.

0:45:10.360 --> 0:45:12.799
<v Speaker 2>I know it was sort of like it wasn't even

0:45:12.880 --> 0:45:15.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it was homophobic, but it was like not like,

0:45:15.040 --> 0:45:18.000
<v Speaker 2>oh that gos you know, for the record, I only

0:45:18.000 --> 0:45:19.759
<v Speaker 2>say slurs that have been said at me by people

0:45:19.760 --> 0:45:21.920
<v Speaker 2>who want to kill me. If anyone's curious why I

0:45:22.000 --> 0:45:26.000
<v Speaker 2>use that word, yeah, no. Anyway, that particular person was like, oh, yeah,

0:45:26.000 --> 0:45:27.040
<v Speaker 2>I probably shouldn't say that.

0:45:27.320 --> 0:45:28.840
<v Speaker 3>Sounds like it was an effective deterrent.

0:45:29.040 --> 0:45:31.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, to be honest, totally. And he wanted to go

0:45:32.000 --> 0:45:35.520
<v Speaker 2>to Europe because he wanted to fight Nazis, but instead

0:45:35.560 --> 0:45:39.279
<v Speaker 2>they made him make radio content. He fucking podcasted his

0:45:39.320 --> 0:45:43.319
<v Speaker 2>way through the war and he didn't want to. And

0:45:43.360 --> 0:45:46.440
<v Speaker 2>he is the guy for Better or Worse who brought okay,

0:45:46.440 --> 0:45:49.520
<v Speaker 2>So like marching Cadence songs, they're like, I don't know

0:45:49.600 --> 0:45:52.640
<v Speaker 2>what I've been told, but I like cliches in my

0:45:53.840 --> 0:45:57.160
<v Speaker 2>movies that comes from black culture. This is probably not

0:45:57.200 --> 0:45:57.880
<v Speaker 2>gonna surprise you.

0:45:58.520 --> 0:46:01.160
<v Speaker 3>What did surprise me was your little version of it,

0:46:01.360 --> 0:46:03.960
<v Speaker 3>which I appreciate it. Yeah, that was that was pretty.

0:46:03.880 --> 0:46:07.120
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, real good at rhyming off the top of

0:46:07.120 --> 0:46:10.920
<v Speaker 2>my head. So black regiments were singing that way, and

0:46:11.200 --> 0:46:16.080
<v Speaker 2>eventually Alo Max was like, look, that's clearly better. They're

0:46:16.120 --> 0:46:19.319
<v Speaker 2>actually better at marching. You should stop making everyone be

0:46:19.400 --> 0:46:21.160
<v Speaker 2>dour all the time and let them sing and they

0:46:21.200 --> 0:46:23.879
<v Speaker 2>will do better at this. So for Better or Worse,

0:46:23.920 --> 0:46:27.360
<v Speaker 2>that's his fault. He did radio. They made him a corporal,

0:46:27.680 --> 0:46:29.480
<v Speaker 2>and they kept him around for a year after the

0:46:29.560 --> 0:46:31.440
<v Speaker 2>end of the war. I think they were like, I

0:46:31.480 --> 0:46:33.080
<v Speaker 2>don't know what if it pops off again, I'm not

0:46:33.120 --> 0:46:36.920
<v Speaker 2>actually sure. And then they let him go and he

0:46:36.960 --> 0:46:38.440
<v Speaker 2>goes back to New York and New York is on

0:46:38.520 --> 0:46:42.440
<v Speaker 2>fire with the radical possibility of song and folklore. Pete

0:46:42.440 --> 0:46:45.640
<v Speaker 2>Seeger was like, We're going to change the world, and

0:46:45.680 --> 0:46:48.600
<v Speaker 2>this is where have you heard of da Von Ronk? No,

0:46:49.239 --> 0:46:51.160
<v Speaker 2>he's another one of these white folk singers in the

0:46:51.200 --> 0:46:54.440
<v Speaker 2>New York scene, but he's mostly If people know him today,

0:46:54.640 --> 0:46:56.480
<v Speaker 2>it's largely because he was like one of Bob Dylan's

0:46:56.480 --> 0:46:58.719
<v Speaker 2>main influences. Again, for Better or Worse, this is the

0:46:58.719 --> 0:47:01.120
<v Speaker 2>thing that well, I feel like for Better or Worse

0:47:01.200 --> 0:47:03.440
<v Speaker 2>is like the main thing with like disseminated stuff to

0:47:03.480 --> 0:47:05.319
<v Speaker 2>the masses, and you're like, oh, how'd that go in

0:47:05.360 --> 0:47:07.239
<v Speaker 2>the end once the mass has had it? But like,

0:47:07.400 --> 0:47:10.680
<v Speaker 2>I also do believe it's fucking complicated. Anyway. The reason

0:47:10.719 --> 0:47:12.520
<v Speaker 2>I knew Davon Ronk and I got really excited when

0:47:12.560 --> 0:47:14.640
<v Speaker 2>he popped up in this story is that Davon Ronk

0:47:14.719 --> 0:47:17.680
<v Speaker 2>is famous in my world because he's a straight guy, right,

0:47:18.160 --> 0:47:20.040
<v Speaker 2>and he's sitting at a cafe and oh my god,

0:47:20.040 --> 0:47:22.160
<v Speaker 2>I remember its nineteen sixty or nineteen sixty nine, whenever

0:47:22.200 --> 0:47:24.080
<v Speaker 2>Stonewall was Everyone's gonna be mad at me now I'm

0:47:24.080 --> 0:47:27.399
<v Speaker 2>a fake gay. But Stonewall Riot pops off, Davon Ronk

0:47:27.480 --> 0:47:29.520
<v Speaker 2>is like shit, people are fighting cops, and so he

0:47:29.600 --> 0:47:31.720
<v Speaker 2>runs out of the restaurants are throwing bricks at cops.

0:47:32.080 --> 0:47:32.840
<v Speaker 2>He gets arrested.

0:47:32.880 --> 0:47:35.040
<v Speaker 3>He's like, I don't need I'll find out later what

0:47:35.080 --> 0:47:37.560
<v Speaker 3>the cause is. If we're throwing rocks at cops, I'm

0:47:37.680 --> 0:47:40.120
<v Speaker 3>in I know which side I'm on exactly?

0:47:42.880 --> 0:47:45.319
<v Speaker 2>Is the George Orwell quote that's like, I'm gonna do

0:47:45.480 --> 0:47:48.080
<v Speaker 2>terrible mis justice this quote. I don't have much of

0:47:48.120 --> 0:47:51.319
<v Speaker 2>a appreciation for the idealized worker that exists in the

0:47:51.320 --> 0:47:55.000
<v Speaker 2>bourgeois communist member's mind. But when I see a flesh

0:47:55.040 --> 0:47:58.440
<v Speaker 2>and blood worker in conflict with his natural enemy, the policeman,

0:47:58.640 --> 0:48:00.520
<v Speaker 2>I do not have to ask myself which side I

0:48:00.560 --> 0:48:00.879
<v Speaker 2>am on.

0:48:01.719 --> 0:48:05.520
<v Speaker 3>There you go, actually a good like axiom to live.

0:48:05.360 --> 0:48:09.799
<v Speaker 2>By, genuinely. Yeah. Every now and then you'll be like, oh, like, oh,

0:48:09.840 --> 0:48:13.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't mind that kind was like, that's a NASTI

0:48:13.440 --> 0:48:14.800
<v Speaker 2>fighting a cop. I don't know, man.

0:48:15.360 --> 0:48:17.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there are a few times where you're like, oh no,

0:48:17.800 --> 0:48:19.600
<v Speaker 3>But for the most part, I feel like it will

0:48:19.600 --> 0:48:20.520
<v Speaker 3>work out totally.

0:48:22.560 --> 0:48:24.840
<v Speaker 2>The New York City scene tried to sell unions on

0:48:24.880 --> 0:48:26.799
<v Speaker 2>folk music in the late forties. They're like, we gotta

0:48:26.800 --> 0:48:29.040
<v Speaker 2>figure it out. This is our leftist music. But by

0:48:29.080 --> 0:48:31.920
<v Speaker 2>that point, folk music that they were doing was already

0:48:31.960 --> 0:48:34.200
<v Speaker 2>seen as hokey and out of touch, so some thing's

0:48:34.239 --> 0:48:38.680
<v Speaker 2>never change. And they formed People's Songs, which was an

0:48:38.719 --> 0:48:41.240
<v Speaker 2>advocacy group, and they backed the Progressives in the nineteen

0:48:41.280 --> 0:48:43.479
<v Speaker 2>forty eight election, which didn't work, and they kept going.

0:48:44.080 --> 0:48:46.200
<v Speaker 2>And the whole time, he's sleeping with other women, and

0:48:46.239 --> 0:48:49.960
<v Speaker 2>I only learned that almost all the way through the

0:48:50.239 --> 0:48:55.040
<v Speaker 2>why would anyone mention that? Eventually, nineteen forty nine, Elizabeth

0:48:55.120 --> 0:48:59.040
<v Speaker 2>is like, I'm kind of done. Need to just keep

0:48:59.160 --> 0:49:03.400
<v Speaker 2>cheating on me? So she leaves him. He deserves it.

0:49:04.960 --> 0:49:07.600
<v Speaker 2>The Feds are still after him. He used his name

0:49:07.640 --> 0:49:10.319
<v Speaker 2>to sponsor a fundraiser that, okay, so this is how

0:49:10.320 --> 0:49:13.000
<v Speaker 2>many steps of separation will get you in trouble. He

0:49:13.080 --> 0:49:15.640
<v Speaker 2>used his name to sponsor a fundraiser to defend lawyers

0:49:15.680 --> 0:49:20.040
<v Speaker 2>who defended someone that people accused of being communists, and

0:49:20.080 --> 0:49:21.799
<v Speaker 2>that was too close to being a communist, so the

0:49:21.800 --> 0:49:22.880
<v Speaker 2>FEDS were after him again.

0:49:23.640 --> 0:49:26.439
<v Speaker 3>I feel like that Winona Ryder meme where she's trying

0:49:26.440 --> 0:49:28.040
<v Speaker 3>to it looks like she's trying to do a math

0:49:28.080 --> 0:49:30.759
<v Speaker 3>equation in her head on stage. I'm like, that's so

0:49:30.880 --> 0:49:32.360
<v Speaker 3>many degrees removed.

0:49:33.320 --> 0:49:37.280
<v Speaker 2>You shouldn't arrest lawyers for defending people who are accused

0:49:37.320 --> 0:49:40.360
<v Speaker 2>of being communists, and because I'm going to raise the

0:49:40.400 --> 0:49:43.000
<v Speaker 2>money for the lawyers who are defending the people accused

0:49:43.000 --> 0:49:46.080
<v Speaker 2>of the communists. He literally has to leave the country

0:49:46.120 --> 0:49:50.200
<v Speaker 2>at this point. And a report came out on the

0:49:50.280 --> 0:49:53.680
<v Speaker 2>radio personalities who were secret reds and he was on

0:49:53.800 --> 0:49:56.800
<v Speaker 2>there alongside Orson Wells and Langston Hughes and Pete Seeger,

0:49:57.680 --> 0:50:00.719
<v Speaker 2>and that FBI started investigating everyone wh knew him, and

0:50:00.760 --> 0:50:03.440
<v Speaker 2>he was like, you know what Europe is folk music,

0:50:03.760 --> 0:50:08.799
<v Speaker 2>Maybe I should go there. And that means ditching his

0:50:08.880 --> 0:50:10.879
<v Speaker 2>kid with his ex wife, despite the fact that he'd

0:50:10.880 --> 0:50:14.680
<v Speaker 2>agreed to help raise his daughter. He did offer double

0:50:14.719 --> 0:50:17.440
<v Speaker 2>the child support she asked for. When he was like,

0:50:17.520 --> 0:50:19.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm not helping, she was like, I one hundred bucks

0:50:19.640 --> 0:50:21.440
<v Speaker 2>a month. He was like, I'm giving you two hundred.

0:50:21.920 --> 0:50:24.440
<v Speaker 2>This is a crumbs thing. Everyone involved on this zoom

0:50:24.440 --> 0:50:26.240
<v Speaker 2>call is making roughly the same face.

0:50:27.280 --> 0:50:31.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I had a nickel for every like very cool guy.

0:50:31.600 --> 0:50:33.680
<v Speaker 3>He was like, oh, I did kind of abandon my

0:50:33.760 --> 0:50:36.279
<v Speaker 3>kid and let somebody else raise them. That is a

0:50:36.320 --> 0:50:38.600
<v Speaker 3>common thing, unfortunately.

0:50:38.000 --> 0:50:42.919
<v Speaker 2>Which is funny because his philandry, cheating whatever it's called

0:50:43.800 --> 0:50:49.319
<v Speaker 2>barely mentioned ever. Led Belly, famous for being a womanizer,

0:50:49.800 --> 0:50:52.359
<v Speaker 2>constantly like this is the number of kids he had

0:50:52.360 --> 0:50:54.359
<v Speaker 2>out of wedlock. Led Belly had a lot of kids

0:50:54.360 --> 0:50:57.319
<v Speaker 2>out of wedlock. What led Belly did not do is

0:50:57.320 --> 0:50:59.960
<v Speaker 2>a band in those kids. He was like, that is

0:51:00.239 --> 0:51:02.840
<v Speaker 2>my kid. I actually don't know whether you paid child support.

0:51:03.239 --> 0:51:04.960
<v Speaker 2>I just like literally don't know one way or the other.

0:51:05.239 --> 0:51:08.799
<v Speaker 2>But like a lot of his kids took the name

0:51:08.880 --> 0:51:11.400
<v Speaker 2>led Better because they're like, yeah, that's my dad. My

0:51:11.480 --> 0:51:15.359
<v Speaker 2>dad's cool. Anyway, I wonder what the difference between Alan

0:51:15.440 --> 0:51:16.920
<v Speaker 2>Lomax and Haughty Ledbetter is.

0:51:17.040 --> 0:51:20.959
<v Speaker 3>I was gonna say, it's interesting, who's philandering and having

0:51:21.040 --> 0:51:23.400
<v Speaker 3>a lot of kids is like a big part of

0:51:23.440 --> 0:51:25.919
<v Speaker 3>their story, even though they were there for their kids.

0:51:25.920 --> 0:51:28.520
<v Speaker 3>It sounds like and who's It's just like it's not

0:51:28.640 --> 0:51:31.080
<v Speaker 3>part of it's like a footnote if mentioned at all.

0:51:31.200 --> 0:51:32.400
<v Speaker 2>Right. One of the things that we talked about in

0:51:32.400 --> 0:51:35.720
<v Speaker 2>the Honey led Better episodes is that consciously John Lomax,

0:51:35.800 --> 0:51:40.120
<v Speaker 2>the Terrible Man, was building an idea of the black

0:51:40.160 --> 0:51:43.839
<v Speaker 2>man as the like dangerous man but who can sing,

0:51:44.680 --> 0:51:49.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, and like created this fucking racist stereotype and

0:51:49.160 --> 0:51:51.040
<v Speaker 2>like used led belly to do it.

0:51:52.320 --> 0:51:56.560
<v Speaker 3>That persists. It's wild how this still lingers?

0:51:56.680 --> 0:51:56.840
<v Speaker 4>You know?

0:51:57.080 --> 0:52:01.360
<v Speaker 2>No, absolutely, So he goes, he leaves country, and he

0:52:01.400 --> 0:52:03.719
<v Speaker 2>spends eight years out of the country recording folk music

0:52:03.800 --> 0:52:06.200
<v Speaker 2>everywhere he could. He comes back to the States in

0:52:06.280 --> 0:52:08.200
<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifty eight, and there in New York City he

0:52:08.239 --> 0:52:11.680
<v Speaker 2>saw a folk scene musicians playing in Washington Square Park,

0:52:12.040 --> 0:52:15.480
<v Speaker 2>largely because of his recording work. And if you're like, well,

0:52:15.480 --> 0:52:16.719
<v Speaker 2>We've been talking about this the whole time, but I'm

0:52:16.760 --> 0:52:18.879
<v Speaker 2>just gonna read it because of my script. If you're like, oh,

0:52:18.920 --> 0:52:21.120
<v Speaker 2>great white city kids discover folk music from rural and

0:52:21.120 --> 0:52:24.399
<v Speaker 2>black people, well, Lomax would agree with you. He wrote

0:52:24.400 --> 0:52:28.719
<v Speaker 2>about it. Quote. Some of the young folknicks who dominated

0:52:28.719 --> 0:52:31.520
<v Speaker 2>the New York scene asserted that there was more folk

0:52:31.600 --> 0:52:34.440
<v Speaker 2>music in Washington Square on Sunday afternoon than there was

0:52:34.480 --> 0:52:37.800
<v Speaker 2>an all of rural America. Apparently it made them feel

0:52:37.840 --> 0:52:40.360
<v Speaker 2>like heroes to believe that they were keeping a dying

0:52:40.400 --> 0:52:43.799
<v Speaker 2>tradition alive. The idea that these nice young people who

0:52:43.840 --> 0:52:45.640
<v Speaker 2>were only just beginning to learn how to play and

0:52:45.680 --> 0:52:48.560
<v Speaker 2>sing in good style might replace the glories of the

0:52:48.600 --> 0:52:53.359
<v Speaker 2>real thing frankly horrified me. So he'd kind of hate

0:52:53.400 --> 0:52:54.920
<v Speaker 2>what folk music came to.

0:52:55.640 --> 0:52:57.239
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it sounds like that.

0:52:58.400 --> 0:52:59.960
<v Speaker 2>And he went on to record a lot of music

0:53:00.320 --> 0:53:01.960
<v Speaker 2>that went on to have big white bands cover them,

0:53:02.000 --> 0:53:05.399
<v Speaker 2>The Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, all of those people. Even

0:53:05.440 --> 0:53:09.920
<v Speaker 2>with the best intentions, the colonization continued. He believed in

0:53:09.960 --> 0:53:12.920
<v Speaker 2>what he called cultural equity, he said in nineteen ninety one.

0:53:13.000 --> 0:53:15.040
<v Speaker 2>He lived for a pretty long time, he said, quote,

0:53:15.040 --> 0:53:17.640
<v Speaker 2>cultural equity should join all the other important principles of

0:53:17.680 --> 0:53:20.440
<v Speaker 2>human dignity, freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom to

0:53:20.480 --> 0:53:23.120
<v Speaker 2>work and live and enjoy yourself, and freedom for your

0:53:23.160 --> 0:53:26.480
<v Speaker 2>culture to express itself. So basically he's saying, like, you

0:53:26.560 --> 0:53:31.120
<v Speaker 2>can't have cultural superiority. That's his argument. He's like that

0:53:31.200 --> 0:53:33.000
<v Speaker 2>needs to be up there with everything else, is that

0:53:33.040 --> 0:53:38.120
<v Speaker 2>you can't suppress people's culture. His biographer, John Sweed wrote

0:53:38.120 --> 0:53:40.760
<v Speaker 2>about him. The biographer who only in like one sentence

0:53:40.800 --> 0:53:42.960
<v Speaker 2>mentioned the fact that he was cheating on his wife

0:53:43.040 --> 0:53:43.840
<v Speaker 2>and loved his kidding.

0:53:43.840 --> 0:53:44.960
<v Speaker 3>This is the one that you don't trust.

0:53:45.040 --> 0:53:46.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, is the one that I don't trust, said

0:53:46.680 --> 0:53:49.799
<v Speaker 2>about him. Quote. His enthusiasm was boundless and seemed to

0:53:49.840 --> 0:53:52.600
<v Speaker 2>grow with age. His drive to celebrate life in all

0:53:52.640 --> 0:53:56.279
<v Speaker 2>its diversity and to see, taste and hear everything was astonishing,

0:53:57.160 --> 0:53:59.719
<v Speaker 2>and he kept his Texas accent despite decades of living

0:53:59.760 --> 0:54:02.480
<v Speaker 2>in New York and steadfastedly refuse to let anyone give

0:54:02.560 --> 0:54:05.120
<v Speaker 2>him shit about it. Basically, his argument was like, this

0:54:05.160 --> 0:54:07.239
<v Speaker 2>doesn't make me a bad person. This is just where

0:54:07.239 --> 0:54:09.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm from. You know, the fact that this is a

0:54:09.360 --> 0:54:12.000
<v Speaker 2>bad person is unrelated. I'm just like bitter. I'm so

0:54:12.160 --> 0:54:14.839
<v Speaker 2>bitter about the number of times I have written entire

0:54:14.960 --> 0:54:17.440
<v Speaker 2>things about subjects and then gotten to the end and

0:54:17.480 --> 0:54:22.360
<v Speaker 2>been like, why can't respecting women be part of being radical?

0:54:23.320 --> 0:54:24.680
<v Speaker 3>Misogyny is eternal.

0:54:24.760 --> 0:54:28.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, God, I read essays not by a good person.

0:54:28.560 --> 0:54:31.640
<v Speaker 2>I read essays by Dwarkin, my second wave feminist that

0:54:31.680 --> 0:54:33.640
<v Speaker 2>I was influential on me. And then I have to

0:54:33.680 --> 0:54:36.120
<v Speaker 2>admit that where she was complaining about the free love movement,

0:54:36.120 --> 0:54:37.200
<v Speaker 2>where she was like, you know, so that all the

0:54:37.200 --> 0:54:40.160
<v Speaker 2>free love people are like all the men were feminists

0:54:40.200 --> 0:54:42.560
<v Speaker 2>until they got birth control and then they stopped because

0:54:42.600 --> 0:54:45.319
<v Speaker 2>all they cared about was access to sex. That was

0:54:45.640 --> 0:54:46.680
<v Speaker 2>what they were in the fight for.

0:54:47.880 --> 0:54:50.879
<v Speaker 3>Oh, Margaret, this is like I would talk all day

0:54:51.040 --> 0:54:53.920
<v Speaker 3>how many leftist progressive men and then you're in the

0:54:53.920 --> 0:54:56.480
<v Speaker 3>movement with them, and it's like, we expect the women

0:54:56.560 --> 0:54:58.799
<v Speaker 3>to make food and clean up, and we're gonna be

0:54:58.840 --> 0:55:00.920
<v Speaker 3>the leaders of this whole thing. We're gonna be the face.

0:55:01.320 --> 0:55:04.960
<v Speaker 2>Like totally, it is taialeless all this time. Totally. Oh god,

0:55:04.960 --> 0:55:06.440
<v Speaker 2>I remember which episode it was. It might have been

0:55:06.480 --> 0:55:08.320
<v Speaker 2>when I was talking about the Young Lords. I didn't

0:55:08.360 --> 0:55:14.680
<v Speaker 2>know that Chauven's pig like calling men pigs comes from

0:55:15.080 --> 0:55:18.120
<v Speaker 2>late sixties. I can't remember if it's panthers or young Lords,

0:55:18.520 --> 0:55:20.680
<v Speaker 2>but it's calling them cops.

0:55:21.360 --> 0:55:25.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, because like it is cop shit totally, like policing

0:55:25.160 --> 0:55:27.560
<v Speaker 3>what women do and what women can't do, that's cop shit.

0:55:27.760 --> 0:55:31.160
<v Speaker 3>Kill the cop in your mind, especially the misogynistic one

0:55:31.239 --> 0:55:32.400
<v Speaker 3>if you are a leftist.

0:55:32.560 --> 0:55:37.279
<v Speaker 2>No, absolutely, well okay. And then the final things I

0:55:37.360 --> 0:55:40.600
<v Speaker 2>have to say about Alan, I talked with my friend's father.

0:55:40.640 --> 0:55:43.359
<v Speaker 2>I did some original research for this episode. My friend's father,

0:55:43.400 --> 0:55:45.400
<v Speaker 2>Andy Cohen, was part of the folk scene that Alan

0:55:45.440 --> 0:55:48.920
<v Speaker 2>and let Belly helped create, and I asked him about Alan.

0:55:49.400 --> 0:55:52.240
<v Speaker 4>Not that Andy Cohen Bridget, I feel.

0:55:52.040 --> 0:55:55.400
<v Speaker 3>Like you saw my face be like, what are we

0:55:55.480 --> 0:55:58.120
<v Speaker 3>talking about? Bravo for a minute, Yes, this is.

0:55:59.320 --> 0:56:01.040
<v Speaker 2>Are we talking about? This, say, Andy Cohen, Or is

0:56:01.040 --> 0:56:01.680
<v Speaker 2>the different.

0:56:01.960 --> 0:56:04.120
<v Speaker 3>A different beloved Andy Cohen.

0:56:04.280 --> 0:56:06.800
<v Speaker 4>It is a celebrity that Margaret has no idea.

0:56:06.920 --> 0:56:07.799
<v Speaker 2>No, I don't know.

0:56:08.080 --> 0:56:09.319
<v Speaker 3>You're not in this world at all.

0:56:09.760 --> 0:56:11.520
<v Speaker 2>I was willing to accept that you are hot for

0:56:11.640 --> 0:56:12.359
<v Speaker 2>my friend's dad.

0:56:13.480 --> 0:56:16.160
<v Speaker 3>Like, tell me more about this con.

0:56:17.520 --> 0:56:19.640
<v Speaker 2>I asked him about Alan and Abouff folk He told

0:56:19.640 --> 0:56:22.200
<v Speaker 2>me quote folklore is a bottom up view of history

0:56:22.200 --> 0:56:24.520
<v Speaker 2>of working people, many of whom are known to be

0:56:24.560 --> 0:56:26.759
<v Speaker 2>as conservative as the people who control their fates from

0:56:26.800 --> 0:56:29.440
<v Speaker 2>the top. Well, my guess is is that lomaxa an

0:56:29.480 --> 0:56:32.600
<v Speaker 2>opportunity to change attitudes about things like race relations and

0:56:32.680 --> 0:56:35.960
<v Speaker 2>union movements, peace struggles, and even gender roles by bringing

0:56:36.000 --> 0:56:38.680
<v Speaker 2>people from different turfs together on the same stage to

0:56:38.760 --> 0:56:41.680
<v Speaker 2>show how much they have in common. In some detail,

0:56:42.320 --> 0:56:45.480
<v Speaker 2>the tune Flop Eared Mule has Russian cognate tunes that

0:56:45.520 --> 0:56:47.920
<v Speaker 2>play to the same melody and rhythm. How did this

0:56:47.960 --> 0:56:51.480
<v Speaker 2>Slavic tune end up in Tennessee? In any case, he

0:56:51.560 --> 0:56:54.360
<v Speaker 2>was using pragmatic cultural language to get different neighborhoods to

0:56:54.400 --> 0:56:57.520
<v Speaker 2>speak to one another across turf lines, a mechanism for

0:56:57.640 --> 0:57:01.080
<v Speaker 2>uniting the working class broadly across those same turns, you

0:57:01.200 --> 0:57:03.759
<v Speaker 2>name them. They were there each against all, dog eat dog,

0:57:03.840 --> 0:57:07.560
<v Speaker 2>especially in urban areas, tribalism rather than cooperation. Pulling the

0:57:07.600 --> 0:57:11.480
<v Speaker 2>musicians together had the effect, along with multi ethnic labor unions,

0:57:11.520 --> 0:57:14.120
<v Speaker 2>ongoing civil rights battles, and so forth, of erasing some

0:57:14.160 --> 0:57:17.600
<v Speaker 2>of those turf lines. He was teaching first principles using

0:57:17.640 --> 0:57:23.920
<v Speaker 2>commonly known songs instead of emotionally charged rhetoric. So that's

0:57:23.920 --> 0:57:26.800
<v Speaker 2>what folk music tried to do. Tried to bring everyone together,

0:57:27.680 --> 0:57:32.160
<v Speaker 2>tried to say we're all folk versus those non folk. Did,

0:57:32.200 --> 0:57:35.840
<v Speaker 2>try to unite the working class. Oh also created Bob Dylan.

0:57:35.880 --> 0:57:39.080
<v Speaker 2>So give it. Someone here really likes Bob Dylan. It's fine,

0:57:39.120 --> 0:57:40.720
<v Speaker 2>you can like Bob Dylan. I'm not mad at you.

0:57:40.840 --> 0:57:42.760
<v Speaker 2>This is a bit sort of.

0:57:43.240 --> 0:57:45.840
<v Speaker 3>I like how much you are not down with Bob Dylan.

0:57:45.960 --> 0:57:49.360
<v Speaker 4>You ambiguous, lady.

0:57:51.040 --> 0:57:53.320
<v Speaker 2>There are some Bob Dylan songs I like. It's fine,

0:57:53.640 --> 0:57:56.800
<v Speaker 2>it's followed. I was always confused for a long time

0:57:56.800 --> 0:57:59.600
<v Speaker 2>why singer songwriter was called folk music when there was

0:57:59.720 --> 0:58:02.560
<v Speaker 2>things with accordions in the world, and you know, banjo's

0:58:02.560 --> 0:58:06.720
<v Speaker 2>and like people stomping and clapping and just way more

0:58:06.720 --> 0:58:09.880
<v Speaker 2>interesting things. But now I understand the lineage better.

0:58:10.360 --> 0:58:12.560
<v Speaker 3>I'm dating myself a little bit here, but have y'all

0:58:12.560 --> 0:58:16.000
<v Speaker 3>ever heard that Moby album play? It's like full of

0:58:16.080 --> 0:58:18.760
<v Speaker 3>Alan Lomax's recordings. That was one of my first Oh shit,

0:58:18.880 --> 0:58:21.480
<v Speaker 3>that's him. Yeah, And I don't know if he ever

0:58:21.520 --> 0:58:24.320
<v Speaker 3>heard it, but Alan. My understanding is that Moby's Play

0:58:24.360 --> 0:58:26.840
<v Speaker 3>came out in ninety nine. I think what Max did

0:58:26.880 --> 0:58:28.080
<v Speaker 3>in like the two.

0:58:27.880 --> 0:58:31.080
<v Speaker 2>Thousands, yeah, two thousand and two, Yeah, so he might have.

0:58:31.160 --> 0:58:34.400
<v Speaker 3>Heard this album that was, like, you know, very popular.

0:58:34.800 --> 0:58:37.280
<v Speaker 3>I have my feelings about Moby, but I'm so curious,

0:58:37.320 --> 0:58:39.640
<v Speaker 3>like what he thought to hear this album that was

0:58:39.680 --> 0:58:43.360
<v Speaker 3>like recontextualizing these recordings that he was responsible for.

0:58:44.080 --> 0:58:44.120
<v Speaker 1>No.

0:58:44.240 --> 0:58:47.280
<v Speaker 2>I genuinely wonder too. And I bet someone even knows

0:58:47.320 --> 0:58:49.760
<v Speaker 2>even mentioning Lomax on last week's recording, I've had a

0:58:49.800 --> 0:58:53.080
<v Speaker 2>bunch of people reach out. That makes so much sense

0:58:53.120 --> 0:58:55.040
<v Speaker 2>to that album was that I loved Moby as a

0:58:55.080 --> 0:59:00.080
<v Speaker 2>teenager me too. Woo. I was like the idea of

0:59:00.080 --> 0:59:02.640
<v Speaker 2>being like you made all of the music, well, not

0:59:02.720 --> 0:59:05.320
<v Speaker 2>that album where he is sampling really heavily, but like

0:59:06.040 --> 0:59:09.080
<v Speaker 2>you could be the entire band was so interesting to me.

0:59:09.520 --> 0:59:12.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Yo, you're not gonna get me. I know Moby

0:59:12.680 --> 0:59:14.760
<v Speaker 3>is problematic, y'all are not gonna get me to talk

0:59:14.840 --> 0:59:17.400
<v Speaker 3>badly about Moby because it was such a big part

0:59:17.440 --> 0:59:20.320
<v Speaker 3>of my musical awakening as a youth. And you know,

0:59:20.360 --> 0:59:22.840
<v Speaker 3>when you first heard music like that, it did open

0:59:22.880 --> 0:59:24.760
<v Speaker 3>at least for me, it opened up the whole world

0:59:24.840 --> 0:59:26.920
<v Speaker 3>of what was possible. And so yeah, I am right

0:59:26.960 --> 0:59:30.160
<v Speaker 3>there with you. And it is interesting that like he

0:59:30.280 --> 0:59:33.280
<v Speaker 3>was hearing the same Lomax recordings and wondering like, oh,

0:59:33.280 --> 0:59:34.760
<v Speaker 3>could I recontextualize this?

0:59:34.840 --> 0:59:37.120
<v Speaker 2>You know, no, and totally in a world without white supremacy,

0:59:37.120 --> 0:59:39.880
<v Speaker 2>i'd feel way. You know, It's like it makes me sad,

0:59:40.080 --> 0:59:43.160
<v Speaker 2>but like, okay, wait, why is Moby problematic? I know

0:59:43.200 --> 0:59:45.000
<v Speaker 2>that he I met people who went on days with

0:59:45.080 --> 0:59:47.600
<v Speaker 2>him from Tinder who didn't like it, but not I'm

0:59:47.640 --> 0:59:49.480
<v Speaker 2>not accusing anyone of any crime here.

0:59:49.520 --> 0:59:51.960
<v Speaker 3>No, no, no, I mean I don't know, but I

0:59:52.040 --> 0:59:55.960
<v Speaker 3>know that, like my understanding is that he pursued a

0:59:56.040 --> 1:00:00.000
<v Speaker 3>relationship with a very young Natalie Portmanu and she's written

1:00:00.200 --> 1:00:04.040
<v Speaker 3>about how it like just wasn't a super chill vibe,

1:00:04.240 --> 1:00:05.880
<v Speaker 3>and it's like, oh, you're talking about someone who was

1:00:05.920 --> 1:00:08.760
<v Speaker 3>a lot older and someone was a lot younger. Yeah,

1:00:08.800 --> 1:00:10.360
<v Speaker 3>it kind of goes back to what we were saying

1:00:10.360 --> 1:00:12.760
<v Speaker 3>about how all people can be cool in a lot

1:00:12.800 --> 1:00:14.480
<v Speaker 3>of ways, and then it's like, oh, when it comes

1:00:14.520 --> 1:00:18.200
<v Speaker 3>to how you treat and see women, maybe.

1:00:17.960 --> 1:00:20.040
<v Speaker 2>That's so cool. No, that makes sense because movie was

1:00:20.080 --> 1:00:24.240
<v Speaker 2>an incredibly actively leftist in the nineties rave scene and stuff,

1:00:24.240 --> 1:00:26.640
<v Speaker 2>and like has albums called Everything Really Long and another

1:00:26.640 --> 1:00:29.920
<v Speaker 2>one called Animal Rights and like Moby Played.

1:00:30.040 --> 1:00:32.640
<v Speaker 3>I mean I got my start in the reproductive justice movement.

1:00:32.960 --> 1:00:37.920
<v Speaker 3>Has for free DJed many reproductive rights or like like

1:00:38.320 --> 1:00:39.360
<v Speaker 3>events that I've been at.

1:00:39.200 --> 1:00:42.680
<v Speaker 4>Like I remember the Natalie Portman thing, because he was

1:00:42.800 --> 1:00:45.800
<v Speaker 4>like we briefly dated, and she was like he was

1:00:45.840 --> 1:00:48.760
<v Speaker 4>an old weirdo and he.

1:00:48.800 --> 1:00:52.320
<v Speaker 3>Creep on me and it was not good. So in

1:00:52.360 --> 1:00:55.040
<v Speaker 3>a memoir, his version of it is like, oh, we dated,

1:00:55.480 --> 1:00:57.800
<v Speaker 3>and then her version is like I was in college

1:00:57.880 --> 1:01:01.480
<v Speaker 3>and this old guy creeped on me actually teenager.

1:01:01.800 --> 1:01:05.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's the more famous you are as a man,

1:01:05.240 --> 1:01:06.440
<v Speaker 2>the fewer people we should date.

1:01:06.880 --> 1:01:10.400
<v Speaker 3>Agreed. Also, I read a excerpt of his memoir I'm

1:01:10.440 --> 1:01:11.080
<v Speaker 3>really just like.

1:01:11.040 --> 1:01:13.760
<v Speaker 2>Pulling off on Teah is the secret movie. If you've

1:01:13.800 --> 1:01:15.600
<v Speaker 2>made it this far. You get the Secret movie, So.

1:01:15.760 --> 1:01:20.040
<v Speaker 3>I know, yeah, he's hanging out with Lana del Rey

1:01:20.600 --> 1:01:22.600
<v Speaker 3>and he has he's taking her to his apartment and

1:01:22.600 --> 1:01:25.560
<v Speaker 3>it's one of those apartments where the elevator opens on

1:01:25.720 --> 1:01:30.000
<v Speaker 3>in his apartment and she's according to him, She's like, wow,

1:01:30.040 --> 1:01:33.360
<v Speaker 3>your apartment. You're a man. But then she's like, no,

1:01:33.400 --> 1:01:36.000
<v Speaker 3>I met you're the man. Like you're not in a

1:01:36.040 --> 1:01:39.120
<v Speaker 3>good way. Yeah, no, no, no, like the man like a cop,

1:01:39.280 --> 1:01:41.880
<v Speaker 3>like yeah, like like not like in his mind. He's

1:01:41.920 --> 1:01:44.440
<v Speaker 3>like complimentary and she's like, no, I meant it. Deron

1:01:44.600 --> 1:01:46.480
<v Speaker 3>Thorley like the man.

1:01:47.120 --> 1:01:51.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, I probably somewhere have Moby's drumstick from

1:01:51.360 --> 1:01:53.680
<v Speaker 2>when I was sixteen and went and saw him at

1:01:53.680 --> 1:01:56.800
<v Speaker 2>the Black Cat in DC. Oh my god, I'm wondering

1:01:56.800 --> 1:01:59.880
<v Speaker 2>whether you were at the show. Is the reason I'm mark.

1:02:01.840 --> 1:02:04.800
<v Speaker 3>You have opened eight a little door in my brain

1:02:05.120 --> 1:02:06.680
<v Speaker 3>like I might have been at that time.

1:02:06.760 --> 1:02:13.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, no, it this seems very possible. Well. Alan

1:02:13.920 --> 1:02:16.920
<v Speaker 2>Lomax died July nineteenth, two thousand and two, and eighty

1:02:16.920 --> 1:02:19.400
<v Speaker 2>seven years old, in Florida, and I wish I knew

1:02:19.400 --> 1:02:21.120
<v Speaker 2>more about his personal life. I can't even say he

1:02:21.200 --> 1:02:23.160
<v Speaker 2>was horrible to women. I don't know. All I know

1:02:23.280 --> 1:02:26.360
<v Speaker 2>is one sentence, because why would anyone write about that,

1:02:26.520 --> 1:02:31.880
<v Speaker 2>because that's not what matters anyway. Frustration noted. Yeah the music,

1:02:32.360 --> 1:02:33.160
<v Speaker 2>powerful shit.

1:02:33.440 --> 1:02:34.160
<v Speaker 3>Powerful shit.

1:02:34.840 --> 1:02:37.440
<v Speaker 2>Well okay, wait, I want you to plug your podcast

1:02:37.440 --> 1:02:40.040
<v Speaker 2>in your book, but I also want to find in

1:02:40.080 --> 1:02:43.800
<v Speaker 2>my notes where I wrote this, Oh, that people should

1:02:43.800 --> 1:02:46.040
<v Speaker 2>follow you on Instagram because I like your Instagram Bridget

1:02:46.080 --> 1:02:48.560
<v Speaker 2>Marie in DC, because you do a weekly roundup of

1:02:48.600 --> 1:02:51.920
<v Speaker 2>tech news and it's you're always like, I think it's

1:02:51.920 --> 1:02:53.520
<v Speaker 2>like it's been a busy week. You might have missed

1:02:53.520 --> 1:02:54.520
<v Speaker 2>it or something like that.

1:02:54.520 --> 1:02:56.800
<v Speaker 3>That's right, Yeah, yeah, chaotic.

1:02:56.480 --> 1:02:58.560
<v Speaker 2>Week and I always have missed it, and they're actually

1:02:58.600 --> 1:02:59.640
<v Speaker 2>always really interesting.

1:03:00.240 --> 1:03:04.320
<v Speaker 3>So oh that means so much coming from you. Yeah,

1:03:04.360 --> 1:03:06.360
<v Speaker 3>I just feel like when it comes to tech in

1:03:06.520 --> 1:03:09.920
<v Speaker 3>AI news, it moves so quickly, it's so chaotic, and

1:03:09.960 --> 1:03:12.720
<v Speaker 3>then you see these stories that you don't necessarily click into,

1:03:13.200 --> 1:03:15.360
<v Speaker 3>and I click into them and I read them, and

1:03:15.400 --> 1:03:18.120
<v Speaker 3>I give you this the top lines, just fact based,

1:03:18.160 --> 1:03:22.520
<v Speaker 3>here's what's going on, because we deserve just accessible, accurate

1:03:22.640 --> 1:03:25.120
<v Speaker 3>news in a news climate that feels like it moves

1:03:25.280 --> 1:03:27.120
<v Speaker 3>so quickly that it's just hard to keep up. So

1:03:27.280 --> 1:03:28.640
<v Speaker 3>that means so much coming from you.

1:03:28.960 --> 1:03:31.919
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's like, especially headline type news in a world

1:03:31.920 --> 1:03:35.280
<v Speaker 2>of AI, it's about trust in the people who put

1:03:35.280 --> 1:03:37.800
<v Speaker 2>it together, you know, So it's like, yes, it's easier

1:03:37.800 --> 1:03:40.480
<v Speaker 2>for me. It's because I know your work that I

1:03:40.480 --> 1:03:42.400
<v Speaker 2>see that and I'm like, oh fuck, that's interesting.

1:03:42.480 --> 1:03:45.920
<v Speaker 3>So like yeah, and especially and I think in this

1:03:46.000 --> 1:03:48.720
<v Speaker 3>world of AI, it's like I'm a real person, so

1:03:48.760 --> 1:03:51.480
<v Speaker 3>you're gonna get these typos. You're gonna get. This is

1:03:51.560 --> 1:03:55.120
<v Speaker 3>me just hand or reading and like using my eyes

1:03:55.200 --> 1:03:58.480
<v Speaker 3>and brains and fingers to synthesize and process what I

1:03:58.560 --> 1:04:00.000
<v Speaker 3>read and give it to you.

1:04:00.480 --> 1:04:03.160
<v Speaker 2>Do you think that? Okay? Do you know how letterpress

1:04:03.640 --> 1:04:06.200
<v Speaker 2>creates an indent when you print? But it's not supposed to.

1:04:07.040 --> 1:04:09.000
<v Speaker 2>Have you heard this story, I know exactly what you're

1:04:09.040 --> 1:04:11.320
<v Speaker 2>talking about. So if anyone's listening, letter pressing as a

1:04:11.360 --> 1:04:13.600
<v Speaker 2>way of printing where you have like actual type that's

1:04:13.640 --> 1:04:16.480
<v Speaker 2>like physical and has it's indented or whatever. It's opposite

1:04:16.520 --> 1:04:20.080
<v Speaker 2>of indented, it's extented and it pushes into the paper

1:04:20.120 --> 1:04:23.760
<v Speaker 2>with ink. And the way that people signal now that

1:04:23.800 --> 1:04:26.680
<v Speaker 2>they're using letterpress is they overpress it. And it leaves

1:04:26.720 --> 1:04:30.280
<v Speaker 2>an indentation in the paper. This was seen as like amateur, shoddy,

1:04:30.440 --> 1:04:33.000
<v Speaker 2>terrible work for years and years and years, when letter

1:04:33.000 --> 1:04:35.120
<v Speaker 2>press is the way to get ideas across and now

1:04:35.280 --> 1:04:37.400
<v Speaker 2>letterpress is a way of being like cute. I love

1:04:37.480 --> 1:04:39.200
<v Speaker 2>letterpress suit, but it's like a way of being like

1:04:39.200 --> 1:04:42.480
<v Speaker 2>cute and kitchy and like proving that something's handmade in

1:04:42.520 --> 1:04:45.800
<v Speaker 2>a world of automation. I'm thinking about how in my

1:04:45.840 --> 1:04:48.240
<v Speaker 2>most recent Instagram story, it's like ten slides long, there's

1:04:48.240 --> 1:04:51.040
<v Speaker 2>one typo and I'm like mad at myself, like I

1:04:51.040 --> 1:04:52.840
<v Speaker 2>already fixed it in my substack newsletter.

1:04:53.280 --> 1:04:54.320
<v Speaker 4>I love it.

1:04:54.880 --> 1:04:58.600
<v Speaker 2>Yes, that typo is probably the fucking print mark.

1:04:59.160 --> 1:05:02.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm so glad that you're so like

1:05:02.360 --> 1:05:06.760
<v Speaker 3>I am dyslexic. I cannot spell everything I write is

1:05:06.800 --> 1:05:10.200
<v Speaker 3>my handwriting is elegible. In a world of AI, I

1:05:10.240 --> 1:05:13.680
<v Speaker 3>almost feel like it's kind of an endearing I don't know,

1:05:13.720 --> 1:05:16.680
<v Speaker 3>I've always been very self conscious about my inability to

1:05:16.720 --> 1:05:19.400
<v Speaker 3>spell and my bad writing, and I'm a fucking writer.

1:05:19.800 --> 1:05:22.080
<v Speaker 3>But in a world of AI, I'm like, you know,

1:05:22.200 --> 1:05:25.520
<v Speaker 3>this was written by a human. Yeah, look at the punctuation.

1:05:26.520 --> 1:05:29.480
<v Speaker 4>I had a very like this feels like the like

1:05:29.600 --> 1:05:33.280
<v Speaker 4>Sophie Hobby version of this story. I was buying art

1:05:33.320 --> 1:05:35.440
<v Speaker 4>from this woman who quit her job and decided that

1:05:35.480 --> 1:05:37.480
<v Speaker 4>she was gonna sell art, like she was gonna go

1:05:37.520 --> 1:05:39.480
<v Speaker 4>around and tell original art to other women on the

1:05:39.520 --> 1:05:41.960
<v Speaker 4>internet and like turned her like apartment into like a

1:05:42.000 --> 1:05:46.600
<v Speaker 4>cute little art gallery. And she was like, oh, like

1:05:47.120 --> 1:05:49.120
<v Speaker 4>I'm gonna sell this, but like I want to fix

1:05:49.200 --> 1:05:51.400
<v Speaker 4>up the frame and I was like, no.

1:05:51.840 --> 1:05:52.560
<v Speaker 2>I'll buy it.

1:05:52.880 --> 1:05:54.200
<v Speaker 3>I want the mistake.

1:05:54.720 --> 1:05:57.200
<v Speaker 4>And then she was telling me about this piece, which

1:05:57.280 --> 1:06:01.800
<v Speaker 4>was actually folk art at full circle, and she was

1:06:01.840 --> 1:06:03.960
<v Speaker 4>showing it to me and she said, this looks like

1:06:04.000 --> 1:06:05.960
<v Speaker 4>a mistake, but I kind of like and she was

1:06:06.000 --> 1:06:07.960
<v Speaker 4>explaining that there was like a dot that was like

1:06:08.040 --> 1:06:10.520
<v Speaker 4>different than the other parts of the section, and she's like,

1:06:10.600 --> 1:06:12.960
<v Speaker 4>I like to think that she like was painting this

1:06:13.080 --> 1:06:14.960
<v Speaker 4>and then like it dripped and she was like, no,

1:06:15.040 --> 1:06:17.760
<v Speaker 4>I'm going to leave it, and I was like, yeah, yeah,

1:06:17.800 --> 1:06:21.760
<v Speaker 4>Wabbi Sabby and that's her fucking signature. That's how you

1:06:21.840 --> 1:06:24.880
<v Speaker 4>know it's not fucking screen printing and it's not like

1:06:24.960 --> 1:06:30.800
<v Speaker 4>a mass production. She left them and at the typos it.

1:06:30.760 --> 1:06:34.440
<v Speaker 3>All comes back. It is the imperfections that make things

1:06:34.520 --> 1:06:38.080
<v Speaker 3>beautiful and unique and most importantly human, like this is

1:06:38.120 --> 1:06:40.360
<v Speaker 3>why we express ourselves exactly.

1:06:40.440 --> 1:06:42.200
<v Speaker 4>Also, isn't it great that a woman was like, yeah,

1:06:42.280 --> 1:06:46.320
<v Speaker 4>masel art and then she did Yeah, I had a

1:06:46.360 --> 1:06:46.960
<v Speaker 4>great time.

1:06:48.760 --> 1:06:50.880
<v Speaker 2>But bridget if people want to know more about AI

1:06:51.040 --> 1:06:54.200
<v Speaker 2>and how it's not a person and how well do

1:06:54.200 --> 1:06:56.400
<v Speaker 2>you even talk about how like even talk about I'm

1:06:56.440 --> 1:06:58.240
<v Speaker 2>not accusing you having not talked about I'm just like

1:06:58.240 --> 1:07:00.880
<v Speaker 2>suddenly thinking about do you talk about how one of

1:07:00.880 --> 1:07:02.800
<v Speaker 2>the reasons is poisonous to be in a relationship with

1:07:02.840 --> 1:07:05.320
<v Speaker 2>a robot is that the robot is perfect? Oh?

1:07:05.400 --> 1:07:06.160
<v Speaker 3>Yes, I sure do.

1:07:06.320 --> 1:07:09.200
<v Speaker 2>I chark you in a book maybe that's coming.

1:07:08.960 --> 1:07:11.480
<v Speaker 3>Out if you want to know more about why as

1:07:11.520 --> 1:07:14.720
<v Speaker 3>some of the problems involved in being in a relationship

1:07:14.720 --> 1:07:17.880
<v Speaker 3>with a robot like AI. Check out my audiobook. It

1:07:17.880 --> 1:07:20.360
<v Speaker 3>comes out on July fourteenth. It's called Love at First Prompt.

1:07:20.560 --> 1:07:22.280
<v Speaker 3>You can check it out at Love at First Prompt

1:07:22.320 --> 1:07:26.600
<v Speaker 3>dot AI. Spoiler alert, it is not a pro AI book.

1:07:28.280 --> 1:07:30.720
<v Speaker 3>You might see it and think, oh, this is telling

1:07:30.760 --> 1:07:32.800
<v Speaker 3>me I should be in a relationship with AI.

1:07:33.480 --> 1:07:36.600
<v Speaker 2>Ah, all right, well you've changed my mind.

1:07:38.080 --> 1:07:39.960
<v Speaker 3>Although there is a section of the book where I

1:07:40.040 --> 1:07:43.880
<v Speaker 3>try to gaslight chat SHEETBT into having sex with me.

1:07:44.000 --> 1:07:45.280
<v Speaker 3>It does not go very well.

1:07:47.840 --> 1:07:49.720
<v Speaker 2>On that note, I will see you all next week.

1:07:50.880 --> 1:07:59.600
<v Speaker 1>Amazing Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production

1:07:59.680 --> 1:08:02.920
<v Speaker 1>of Zone Media. For more podcasts, Goo goole Zone Media,

1:08:03.080 --> 1:08:03.960
<v Speaker 1>visit our website

1:08:04.040 --> 1:08:07.760
<v Speaker 4>Goalzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1:08:07.800 --> 1:08:10.640
<v Speaker 4>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.