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Speaker 1: Talking to Death is released every Friday and brought to

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Speaker 1: you absolutely free. But if you want add free listening

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Speaker 1: and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus dot

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Speaker 1: com or on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Talking to Death is a production of tenderfoot TV and

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Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 3: Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back. This is Talking to Death. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Payne Lindsay. In today's intro, we're going to unpack the

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Speaker 1: most recent episode of Up and Vanished, episode six, called

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Speaker 1: Two Truths and a Lie. So spoiler alert if you

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Speaker 1: haven't listened to this episode yet, unless you want to

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Speaker 1: ruin it for yourself, I would just press pause and

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Speaker 1: go listen to episode six right now. This is a

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Speaker 1: pre recorded conversation that I had with some of the

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Speaker 1: Up and Vanished producers who are all investigating this on

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Speaker 1: the road with me in Alaska, and they were there

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Speaker 1: in the bar when I met with Oregon Joe in person,

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Speaker 1: and we had our conversation and here's how it went.

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Speaker 1: So we quickly conjure up plan B and we immediately

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Speaker 1: hop on another flight. And we've already been on three

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Speaker 1: flights at this point, and this day was gloomy, to

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Speaker 1: say the least. It was windy, it was cold, it

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Speaker 1: was raining, and it was just completely uncomfortable moving around.

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Speaker 1: And We're touching down and catch a can And I've

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Speaker 1: been communicating with Oregon John pretty much every fifteen to

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Speaker 1: thirty minutes that day, and I decided to tell him

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Speaker 1: that I was going to be landing a little bit

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Speaker 1: later than we really were one because he had offered

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Speaker 1: to pick me up from the airport and we weren't

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Speaker 1: going to do that, and I didn't want him to

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Speaker 1: be around there or see when I landed if I

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Speaker 1: gave him the honest answer. And I also wanted to

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Speaker 1: go find a place that we could be at and

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Speaker 1: potentially talk to him that we've already scouted out, that

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Speaker 1: is quiet enough, that isn't doesn't have some DJing karaoke

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Speaker 1: night going on, and that we felt was a safe

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Speaker 1: place to talk to him. And so when we touched down,

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Speaker 1: we immediately checked into the airbnb and within that hour

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Speaker 1: we were suiting up and pulling out our equipment, and

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Speaker 1: I guess Dylan and Mike kind of talked to me

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Speaker 1: about next steps after we landed.

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Speaker 4: It was a long way to get to even catch

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Speaker 4: can itself from the airport right like. It was a

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Speaker 4: long flight, but then you had to get on a

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Speaker 4: ferry go across the water to actually get to the town.

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Speaker 4: We didn't know anything. There was no uber. We had

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Speaker 4: to call taxis. One taxi wasn't enough for both of

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Speaker 4: us in all of our cases, so we had to

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Speaker 4: call a second cat taxi and it ended up being

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Speaker 4: the same taxi that took you guys to the place

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Speaker 4: we were going. And then, yeah, it was a bit of

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Speaker 4: a scramble to get everything together, but I think you

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Speaker 4: know we've done this that it wasn't terrible to get

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Speaker 4: it together. I will say that I'm not super jealous

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Speaker 4: of Cooper being from Alaska. I'm pretty thankful he's from Alaska.

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Speaker 4: So he was the one who was right next to

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Speaker 4: you talking to him, and I got to kind of

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Speaker 4: stand back a little bit with Dylan, and I know

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Speaker 4: Cooper's also had his moments like in season three when

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Speaker 4: he was talking to or when he was in the

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Speaker 4: car while you were talking to V Dog.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if you remember season three when I met his

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Speaker 1: nickname was v Dog. It was Cooper and I that

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Speaker 1: flew out there to Great Falls, Montana, and then drove

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Speaker 1: about another hour outside of that town and just popped

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Speaker 1: up on him, knocked on his door. And that was

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Speaker 1: a spooky moment because when we finally got to the property,

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Speaker 1: you know, we had like a general address, but we

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Speaker 1: didn't know what the house looked like. There's no Google Maps,

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Speaker 1: there's no street view, and it was literally up this big,

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Speaker 1: huge hill that was bumpy, and thank god we're in

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Speaker 1: an suv and the first thing that comes through our

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Speaker 1: minds is that there's no quick escaping of this place.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna have to go six miles an hour down

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Speaker 1: this hill to leave. But if you remember season three,

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Speaker 1: when I talked to this guy named Ve Dog, it

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Speaker 1: was a very brief conversation. He didn't have much to say,

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Speaker 1: but I don't think he made himself look very good either.

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Speaker 1: And actually since then, he's been arrested by the FBI

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Speaker 1: on other charges, but clearly they've been keeping an eye

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Speaker 1: on him. But yeah, so Cooper's been in situations like

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Speaker 1: that before, where if it's nerve wrecking, and I think

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Speaker 1: that my main goal was to sort of pad my

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Speaker 1: existence there, one on one, face to face with John

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Speaker 1: as much as I possibly could, and even down to

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Speaker 1: just the subtleties of two people talking and us looking

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Speaker 1: back and forth, so I can even get a chance

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Speaker 1: to to look at him at all and reset and

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Speaker 1: think of a question, because you have to remember, when

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Speaker 1: we went into this, we were going under the guise

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Speaker 1: of being interested in this job that he has, and

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Speaker 1: we couldn't just jump right to noam Alaska and dig

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Speaker 1: into the details of a missing person's case without looking

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Speaker 1: super suspicious unless we really slowly worked our way there.

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Speaker 1: And fortunate enough for us, he was pretty open and

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Speaker 1: he just started talking about his past, and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: very long before No Mallaska came up on its own organically,

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Speaker 1: and Cooper and I had talked beforehand that if he

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Speaker 1: brings it up, we need to say we've been there

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Speaker 1: before and create a conversation about that. And once we

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Speaker 1: started talking about No. Malaska and we got into Flow's

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Speaker 1: disappearance and why he left there, that's really when he

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Speaker 1: said some of the biggest and most important things I

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Speaker 1: think he said in that conversation, and I kind of

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Speaker 1: want to just unpack some of those when we were

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Speaker 1: all there in the moment. It's kind of hard to

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Speaker 1: completely digest it as you're hearing it because I'm simultaneously

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Speaker 1: focused on making sure I don't blow this somehow. And

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Speaker 1: when he said stuff like there's a podcast you know

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Speaker 1: about this case and there's a podcaster in that moment,

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Speaker 1: I legitimately thought, well, jig's up, right, and I either

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Speaker 1: show that on my face or we double down right now.

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Speaker 1: And I just doubled down and tried to ask more

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Speaker 1: questions about it and played stupid. But to me personally,

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Speaker 1: he offered up a lot of information and detail that

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Speaker 1: I'd never heard of before, and if anything, it makes him,

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Speaker 1: in a more solid way, the last person to be

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Speaker 1: with her, and not only just with her, but in

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Speaker 1: his own words, with her all night. And we can

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Speaker 1: play a clip of that and.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, she passed out and in the morning I

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Speaker 2: woke up, she was gone and left her shoes in

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Speaker 2: her bump.

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Speaker 1: He mentions that they went to sleep and when he

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Speaker 1: woke up in the morning, she was gone. He also

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Speaker 1: mentioned that she wanted the place to sleep it off, which,

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Speaker 1: based on your interpretation of that, you know, either she

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Speaker 1: was really tired or one could speculate that she was inebriated. Right,

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Speaker 1: we've all been through this tape we were all there

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Speaker 1: when we heard it the first time. But from you guys,

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Speaker 1: what are your biggest takeaways from some of the statements

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Speaker 1: that organ John made in that bar.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think, for one, him basically dating exactly what

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Speaker 4: was left in his tent the morning after when she

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Speaker 4: supposedly left his tent. I think that's important because that

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Speaker 4: that whole thing was a little sketchy for me. How

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Speaker 4: we even learned about, or how the family even learned

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Speaker 4: about how he had the items, how he returned the

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Speaker 4: items to Blair Florence's sister, and just that whole story

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Speaker 4: seemed very strange to me, Like, why was there not

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Speaker 4: much follow up here? He just gave these items over

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Speaker 4: to somebody when they came and questioned him because somebody

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Speaker 4: saw her, or there was a rumor that she went

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Speaker 4: back to his tent, went to West Beach, and he's

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Speaker 4: just handing over her items in the morning, And it's like,

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Speaker 4: I would love to just see that that exchange and

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Speaker 4: see him hand over these belongings of somebody who is

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Speaker 4: never going to show up again. Maybe nobody knew that

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Speaker 4: at the time. Obviously no one expected that at the time,

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Speaker 4: But like, what was he like in that moment. And

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Speaker 4: I've always you know, we've always heard, we've heard the

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Speaker 4: tape of people saying that he handed over these items,

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Speaker 4: but now we have him saying it specifically and what

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Speaker 4: the items are, and that's unprompted. He just said that

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Speaker 4: out of nowhere, like, yeah, we were talking about Gnome

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Speaker 4: or you guys were talking about Nome or Florence and

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Speaker 4: the missing girl or however it was phrased. But he

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Speaker 4: brought this up. He brought up what was handed over

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Speaker 4: to whoever? And I just thought that was very interesting.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's like hard evidence of Okay. He also

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Speaker 4: has said in the tape, because people think I'm the

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Speaker 4: last one to see her, right, okay, and then you're

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Speaker 4: also handing over her belongings, the last belongings we can

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Speaker 4: find that we're on her that night.

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Speaker 1: Well he actually he literally says, because I was the

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Speaker 1: last person to see her alive besides the person who

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Speaker 1: killed her.

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Speaker 4: Right And I I thought he said it twice.

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Speaker 1: He does say it twice.

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Speaker 4: He says it another time where he says, like they think,

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Speaker 4: or maybe he's talking about they think I did it.

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Speaker 4: They think I'm the one who did When he said

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Speaker 4: he couldn't return to the town. I might be mixing

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Speaker 4: those up, but yeah, that's super interesting that he's saying

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Speaker 4: he was the last one to see her. But then like,

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Speaker 4: I don't know where she just left in the middle

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Speaker 4: of night when I was sleeping. It's like, then, maybe

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Speaker 4: you weren't the last one to see her. What are

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Speaker 4: you talking about. How do you know that for sure

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Speaker 4: that you were the last one to see her. That's

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Speaker 4: the strange thing to say.

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Speaker 1: He apparently also knows that the last person she was

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Speaker 1: with is the person who killed her, and she was

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Speaker 1: put in this barrel under a meth dealer's house. But

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Speaker 1: the way that he describes who this person may be,

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Speaker 1: who she was last with, who killed her, kind of

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Speaker 1: changes and shifts a little bit throughout our conversation, and

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Speaker 1: we can play some clips of that too.

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Speaker 2: They found her buried under the dude's house, the met dealer,

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Speaker 2: who was also the search and rescue driver for the police.

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Speaker 1: Why was the last person to see her alive besides

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Speaker 1: the guy that killed her? And the girl come and hung.

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Speaker 2: Out in my tent one night, and she walked off

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Speaker 2: somewhere and somebody kidnapped and eluded her.

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Speaker 1: So the guy who fucking realate did it? He had or.

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Speaker 2: Good, but I still got family members calling me. They

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Speaker 2: actually were doing a podcast and tried to get a

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Speaker 2: hold of me.

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Speaker 1: He mentioned something about a search and rescue guy, and

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Speaker 1: then he mentioned something about this meth dealer. Did you

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Speaker 1: know that dude who did it? No, never met him.

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Speaker 1: He was his friends with her met dealer.

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Speaker 2: They inspired together. That's that's the thing is up there

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Speaker 2: is why would you need to kill a girl? They

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Speaker 2: put out like crazy.

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Speaker 1: Then he brings up at one point that the Nome

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Speaker 1: police are corrupt and they're the ones who are also

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Speaker 1: in on it, and he starts describing for a second

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Speaker 1: about how a Gnome police officer raped and killed somebody before.

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Speaker 3: Gnome is corrupt.

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Speaker 2: You have no idea. Three times in the last twelve

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Speaker 2: years the law enforcement department has been shut down and

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Speaker 2: taken over by the face. They are so corrupt up there, dude,

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Speaker 2: it's crazy. So like one of the police officers was

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Speaker 2: raping and murders on the hills.

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Speaker 1: And he was basically loosely describing the murder of Sonya

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Speaker 1: Ivanoff from two decades ago that we had briefly touched

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Speaker 1: on earlier in the season.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, which is super weird to me because it's like

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Speaker 4: it didn't seem like he was unclear or hazy about

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Speaker 4: what happened that night. It kind of seemed like he

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Speaker 4: had a really good memory of what was going on

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Speaker 4: that night and what you know, that whole time period

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Speaker 4: he seems to remember pretty well. And then certain things

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Speaker 4: like that where he's like tricking in Matthew Owens, the

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Speaker 4: police officer who the known police officer who did murder

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Speaker 4: someone like seventeen or twenty years ago before that, you

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Speaker 4: can almost take that as he's possibly muddying the waters there,

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Speaker 4: like what is he doing? Why is he suddenly not

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Speaker 4: remembering these facts? And I know you might not remember

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Speaker 4: every fact of everything, but like who did it and

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Speaker 4: where they found the body is like a very important

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Speaker 4: thing you wouldn't remember wrong. That's a strange thing to

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Speaker 4: remember wrong. But you remember handing what items you handed

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Speaker 4: over to the people looking for and you remember her leaving,

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Speaker 4: and you remember the night before, but you'd vaguely remember

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Speaker 4: how it ended. Like that doesn't seem you're gonna remember

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Speaker 4: if there was a whole search and they found a

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Speaker 4: barrel under somebody's house, that's that's gonna stick him. But

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Speaker 4: he seemed very noncommittal to those details. But he was

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Speaker 4: saying him openly again, he's also.

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Speaker 1: The only person who's saying anything remotely similar to that,

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Speaker 1: besides Kelly, which is the pseudonym we gave her, who

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Speaker 1: is also the person that he presents in our conversation

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Speaker 1: as somebody who would vouch for him, who even told

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Speaker 1: the FBI that, hey, it wasn't me who did it,

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Speaker 1: it was this guy over here. And if you look

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Speaker 1: at her text messages that we read, they kind of

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Speaker 1: you could draw connections in her super vague theory. But

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Speaker 1: the big difference is that John's claiming that her body

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Speaker 1: was found and that Kelly took this to the FBI,

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Speaker 1: meaning that it's a wrap, it's all over. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is a this is soulf case. And I even

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Speaker 1: mentioned that towards the end of our conversation, kind of like,

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Speaker 1: you know why he was talking about going back to

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Speaker 1: Nome and if he went back to Nome, everyone would

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Speaker 1: know who he was, and the people are still reaching

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Speaker 1: out to him, and I was like, why because they

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Speaker 1: think I'm involved, And I said, but they caught the guy,

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Speaker 1: didn't they. And he he just responded that they still

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Speaker 1: think that I'm involved, and so to me, it was

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Speaker 1: just a very specific statement. It was very detailed. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's not like like where did he pull that from?

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Speaker 1: In a barrel under someone's house. That's that's just that

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Speaker 1: isn't true, right.

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Speaker 2: A friend of mine she actually called the FBI in

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Speaker 2: because she was working for the guy that killed her,

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Speaker 2: and she found the barrel into the house and called

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Speaker 2: the FBI, and the FBI had to rescue me under

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Speaker 2: your jew's house, buried in a fifty gallon drum, that girl,

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Speaker 2: And if it is.

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Speaker 1: True, then they never found her, right and where we

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Speaker 1: haven't found her yet. Today's guest is a good friend

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Speaker 1: of mine. She's an amazing podcaster, amazing writer. She hosts

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Speaker 1: a podcast called The fall Line where she investigates overlooked

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Speaker 1: cold cases in the Southeast region of the US. Her

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Speaker 1: podcast highlights marginalized victims and seeks justice in cases that

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Speaker 1: are often just overlooked and underreported throughout history. She's also

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Speaker 1: into weird shit like UFOs and cryptids and stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: and I'm a huge fan of her other podcasts called

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Speaker 1: One Strange Thing. She came to the studio here in Atlanta,

283
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Speaker 1: and we had a really fun chat about what it's

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Speaker 1: like to be a podcaster in twenty twenty four, true

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Speaker 1: crime in general, and just our perspectives on this evolving

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Speaker 1: genre that can be really good and really bad. And

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Speaker 1: we kind of unpacked some of our feelings about that

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Speaker 1: and some of our differences in how we do things

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Speaker 1: and how we both feel that they're equally is valuable

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Speaker 1: and important. So, without further ado, today's guest is Laura Norton.

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Speaker 3: I think we operate into completely opposite worlds and I

292
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:22,520
Speaker 3: appreciate both of them. You tell me if you think

293
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Speaker 3: I'm right, Like, I do tons of archival research, right,

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Speaker 3: because the way that the stuff that we do we

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00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,320
Speaker 3: start usually and you probably start like this too, we

296
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Speaker 3: start with a story where there's like almost nothing available.

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Speaker 3: I mean sometimes we start with like a immigration record

298
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Speaker 3: that's like the bottom's torn off of it.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And then we start literally nothing and obituary that's it.

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Speaker 3: A family comes to us and they say, like, can

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Speaker 3: you try and get the police records? I actually have

303
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,120
Speaker 3: pretty good luck with law enforcement. They may also, like

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Speaker 3: we said, be a little bit of a difference, just

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Speaker 3: depends I work a lot with and you also work

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00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,000
Speaker 3: with experts too. I work a lot with scientists, but

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00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:06,959
Speaker 3: you do a lot of work out in the field.

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00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,199
Speaker 3: We do that sometimes, but I do a lot of

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Speaker 3: work on the back end, and I think you do

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Speaker 3: a lot of investigation like out in the field. So

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Speaker 3: it's very different, Like it's very much a documentary field,

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Speaker 3: and I think we do a lot of everything on

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Speaker 3: the front end and then sort of present our findings.

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Speaker 3: So I think that's kind of the different feel of it.

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Speaker 3: I really like listening to what you're doing right now

316
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Speaker 3: on season four. Like I told you when I got here,

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Speaker 3: it's stressing me out badly.

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Speaker 1: I do all last thing you heard you.

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Speaker 3: Getting ready to go meet someone that I didn't feel like.

320
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Speaker 3: I wanted you to go meet in a bar with

321
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Speaker 3: your friend, someone who had enough AMMO and money that

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00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,719
Speaker 3: it cost a dollar around and they were shooting it

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Speaker 3: and I was just like I was feeling the need

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Speaker 3: to send you a little quick text message to tell

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Speaker 3: you not to do it. But I mean, I know

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Speaker 3: you're you're sitting here alive now. I guess it.

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Speaker 1: Worked out, yeah, but I made it out a lot.

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Speaker 3: I just you know, it's such a different world. And

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Speaker 3: I can totally understand why you need to do that,

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Speaker 3: because my methods for that particular case, I don't really

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Speaker 3: see them working. I mean, we certainly track people on

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Speaker 3: social media and find them and try and set up interviews,

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Speaker 3: but I can't really see myself sitting down with the

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00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,159
Speaker 3: man you were speaking to. Your audience knows and my

335
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,199
Speaker 3: thing is Oregon John, Right. I can't see myself shooting

336
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,080
Speaker 3: him a zoom link, right, you know and.

337
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,000
Speaker 1: Saying I s I don't think he'd accept that. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I also knew the transcript to review afterwards.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's all that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So it's just a really different kind of world.

341
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Speaker 3: It's just interesting to hear how differently all of us,

342
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:51,360
Speaker 3: who do you know, this kind of work that has

343
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,480
Speaker 3: a lot of depth to it, just approach subjects differently.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because there's like a general bucket you can put

346
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,040
Speaker 1: all all of us and of true crime podcasts. Yeah,

347
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,800
Speaker 1: that means a lot of different things than it did,

348
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,720
Speaker 1: you know once upon a time when podcasts were first

349
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:12,720
Speaker 1: kind of emerging in this kind of storytelling in general. Right,

350
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,280
Speaker 1: But yeah, there's so many different ways to do it,

351
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Speaker 1: and I think that what you're really good at is

352
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:24,600
Speaker 1: is finding those missing pieces through archive and records and

353
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Speaker 1: you know, being able to kind of piece together lost

354
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,240
Speaker 1: history or something in a way or how do you

355
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:33,760
Speaker 1: look at it?

356
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Speaker 3: I look at it a lot as we research a

357
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,600
Speaker 3: lot of times around things. So when you go to

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Speaker 3: something and there's nothing available, like a lot of podcasters

359
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,240
Speaker 3: who do excellent work, aggregate research, right, so they find

360
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,760
Speaker 3: stuff and they put together a good story based on

361
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:55,080
Speaker 3: what's available and families or unidentified persons, which I work

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00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,440
Speaker 3: on a lot. If there's not staffe available on that,

363
00:19:58,119 --> 00:19:59,800
Speaker 3: a lot of folks will say, well I want to

364
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,600
Speaker 3: cover this case, but I can't. So what we'll do

365
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:04,840
Speaker 3: is we'll say, okay, we'll cover this case because we

366
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 3: can produce primary research on it, like what you do,

367
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,560
Speaker 3: but differently, So we go out and we say, okay,

368
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,680
Speaker 3: well this person was found, they're unidentified.

369
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,399
Speaker 1: What is an unidentified person?

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00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:18,720
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, sorry, I'm just drying.

371
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Speaker 1: But for someone who might not know what you mean

372
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,040
Speaker 1: by that specifically, what's an unidentified person?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like a John or Jane Doe. So like our friend,

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Speaker 3: our mutual friend, Todd Matthews who passed away recently.

375
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Speaker 1: Yes, I'm so sad about that me too.

376
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,399
Speaker 3: It was a big shock, you know, he had just

377
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,120
Speaker 3: finished his big project that was coming out with iHeart Rip.

378
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:45,520
Speaker 1: Todd Matthews. Amazing human, hilarious, just a bright individual who

379
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,720
Speaker 1: I you know, was lucky enough to sit down with

380
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,399
Speaker 1: a few times. He was featured on our Dead on

381
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 1: podcasts and was he Yeah, he was. Actually one of

382
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,440
Speaker 1: the inspirations for why we did it in the first

383
00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 1: place is because Todd Matthews had made this of uh

384
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 1: missing and murdered grateful Dead fans and this was sent

385
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 1: to me by Jake Brennan from Disgraceland and it eventually

386
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,680
Speaker 1: turned into this podcast idea that we collaborated on called

387
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Speaker 1: Dead and Gone. Yeah, And he's like the first person

388
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,720
Speaker 1: that I met with starting out on that project because

389
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Speaker 1: he made that list and he kind of stayed with

390
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 1: it throughout the series and we you know, sent him

391
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,439
Speaker 1: updates and he kind of from there, we kind of

392
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,960
Speaker 1: were sent down this rabbit hole of real time investigation

393
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 1: and just an amazing dude. And I'm really sad to

394
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:37,320
Speaker 1: hear that he passed away.

395
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Speaker 3: I had no idea Todd was involved with.

396
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 1: That, but this just in the very first episode, like

397
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:44,639
Speaker 1: in the first three minutes.

398
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 3: My point that Todd's involved in everything.

399
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he dude is Yeah, of course he is right.

400
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 3: For those listening who aren't familiar with Todd, he is

401
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:58,199
Speaker 3: the first digital age citizen s luth. He solved the

402
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 3: first case solved with the internet. The first Jane do

403
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 3: I did. Her name was, yeah, tent girl, Barbara Hackman,

404
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,360
Speaker 3: I believe her name was. I think I got it right.

405
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,639
Speaker 3: He helped connect me with so many experts for my

406
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 3: show and for my book. He connected a lot of

407
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 3: us together too. You know, I know of two forensic

408
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,360
Speaker 3: scientists who are married because he introduced them. He actually

409
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 3: married them himself.

410
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 1: He said he was the person who married.

411
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, he did the ceremony. Yeah, you know. He helped

412
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:33,160
Speaker 3: found names. Are you pulling up the clib Yeah?

413
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 1: And Greg Nithan. We're murdered here. A man named Ralph

414
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:42,439
Speaker 1: Thomas was convicted and sentenced to death. So why am

415
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 1: I here? Well, it all started with this guy.

416
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 3: Somebody had to do it.

417
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,400
Speaker 4: Somebody's going to invent Palis Ellen, somebody's going to invent

418
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 4: the macrod.

419
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,160
Speaker 1: Eventually, somebody would have been the first. Diversely, it happened

420
00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 1: to be May yes, my name is Payne Lindsay. This

421
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 1: is Todd Matthews. Amazing, dude, He's amazing.

422
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 3: But his Dough net Work, which he started after he

423
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 3: identified ten girl as Barbara and Hagman. If I'm getting

424
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 3: that name wrong, I'm so sorry.

425
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:20,640
Speaker 1: That's correct.

426
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 3: I think I think it's correct. I'm bad with I'm

427
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 3: bad with a lot of things.

428
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 1: Strangely, I'm really bad with names. So I don't even

429
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: and everyone always says that when they're kind of not

430
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:30,400
Speaker 1: that bad. But I am.

431
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 3: I am me too, So we're both probably I don't

432
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 3: know your name right now, me neither. We're both assuring

433
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 3: each other of this name.

434
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 1: We're both we know are proudly wrong.

435
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 3: But he started the Dough net work, and that was

436
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 3: the first database for I Ding John and Jane Jo's

437
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 3: I also known as unidentified persons. The people may have

438
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,640
Speaker 3: seen the acronym U I D. That's used a lot

439
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,199
Speaker 3: for unidentified decedents. So that's what we mean when we

440
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 3: say unidentified persons. And so those cases. I don't remember

441
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 3: how we got here exactly, but I think we were

442
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 3: talking about.

443
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: Working on those cases.

444
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,199
Speaker 3: What that is, Yeah, working on those cases, and a

445
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 3: lot of times for like, especially an unidentified descedent. You

446
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 3: might have two lines in the newspaper and they'll say,

447
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 3: you know, a body found, woman's body found in the park,

448
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 3: and that'll be it. So when we work on stuff

449
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 3: like that, we're really looking at we need to research

450
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 3: around that. So if you try and look up that,

451
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 3: and you know, newspapers dot com or go into the archives,

452
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 3: you're not going to find anything. So you start looking

453
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 3: for what are similar cases, What's been happening at the

454
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 3: area at the time. You know, were their festivals happening,

455
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 3: very much your grateful Dead kind of stuff, right, What

456
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 3: were major events happening, What were disturbances in the community,

457
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 3: were their major construction crews coming through at the time.

458
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 3: You know, there's so many things you can look at,

459
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 3: and as you begin to build that information, like here

460
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 3: in Atlanta, there were a series of stranglings that happened

461
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:54,959
Speaker 3: in the eighties and nineties. So if we find an

462
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 3: unidentified woman who was strangled, we're immediately going to look

463
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 3: at that pattern, very much like how you know, we're

464
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 3: going to consult like the Murder Accountability Project. Just so

465
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 3: many different kinds of things, and that's how we begin

466
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,239
Speaker 3: to build information around a topic. If it's something we're

467
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 3: working on for a while, we're going to go to

468
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 3: the place, We're going to talk to folks, you know,

469
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 3: see what they remember, and we just begin to build

470
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 3: information that way.

471
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: So is the goal usually to link this unidentified body

472
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: to likely a missing person?

473
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 3: Absolutely right. Yeah. Unfortunately, and I'm sure you figured this

474
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 3: out in your work, a lot of missing people are

475
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 3: not in the databases, so.

476
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: We're baffling to me, but yeah, yeah, it's shockingly.

477
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 3: True, and it's for a couple of reasons. One is

478
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 3: that law enforcement don't enter them because not every state

479
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 3: makes it compulsory, as you know, like.

480
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: They don't have to Yeah, that part of the procedure,

481
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 1: like that they have to follow, I guess.

482
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, some states do, some states don't. And

483
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 3: not every missing person is reported missing. That can be

484
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 3: because as family members don't consider the missing because of estrangement,

485
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 3: and I'm sure you discovered this with your series Dead

486
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 3: and Gone, absolutely yeah. And also because of the missing

487
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 3: missing people who are living unhoused, people who are immigrants

488
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 3: to the country.

489
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 1: Who great on their own already, right.

490
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, and their families don't realize they're missing because contact

491
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 3: you know, they say, you know, I'm moving to a

492
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 3: different country, all being contact soon and something happened for

493
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 3: months or years, and they think that family has just

494
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,360
Speaker 3: been in you know, intermittent contact. They don't realize they're

495
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 3: missing teenagers who have run away. You know, just so

496
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 3: many things can happen.

497
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 1: So why did you get into this? Because this is

498
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: a very kind of dark thing, right, I mean, but

499
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: it needs to be done. So you know, why do

500
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: you like doing what you do and how did you

501
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: get into it in the first place.

502
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 3: So I was an English professor for a long time

503
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 3: and I startarted using in my class. I didn't like

504
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 3: to use books in class if I didn't have.

505
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: To, which you're an English teacher.

506
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 3: Well, for one thing, it's expensive for students.

507
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 1: Like to tap to buy books.

508
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I was at Georgia State for a long

509
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 3: time and I used books when I needed to, but

510
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 3: especially in comp classes, I tried to avoid using books,

511
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 3: and so I'd use lots of like interesting articles, stuff

512
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 3: from the paper, things that were free, but also things

513
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 3: that engage students. I know, when you were in college,

514
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 3: I'm sure like you like the classes that like engaged

515
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 3: in things that were interesting to you, you know, which.

516
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: Is like culture pop culture, one or none?

517
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 3: One or none? I would Yeah, it was the same way.

518
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 3: A lot of people dread English and yeah, and they

519
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 3: all specially dread like they're really boring English classes like

520
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 3: comp and so I try to engage people, and so

521
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 3: I would pull in articles about stuff they found interesting.

522
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 3: One thing they found interesting was crime, and so I'd

523
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 3: pull in, you know, an article about a case that

524
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 3: was going on, maybe something contemporary, maybe something cold. We'd

525
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 3: analyze it and say, like, is this objective? How are

526
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 3: they you know, how are they portraying the people who

527
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 3: are in the article? Are we getting feelings about this

528
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 3: case based on this? You know, what information is there?

529
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 3: What's being held back? And I would just begin to

530
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 3: use that kind of stuff.

531
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: So you were the cool English teacher, Yeah right, yeah, obviously, yeah,

532
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: because I always I liked English class. I mean, like

533
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 1: is kind of a I wouldn't even say liked. I

534
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: didn't mind it as much. But I always wanted to

535
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: do like creative writing assignments because always what they didn't

536
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: want to do they wanted us to read the Odyssey

537
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: or something, which I you know, this is like at

538
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: the beginning of spark notes and back when you had

539
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: to actually get them from a store and in a

540
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 1: little book. So I didn't always excel in English, even

541
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: though I was passionate about writing. But I had some

542
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,479
Speaker 1: cool teachers, and I had some that stuck to, you know,

543
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: the books and didn't think outside of the or do

544
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: anything cool like pulling up crime stories from newspapers.

545
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the storms. They'd be like, can we read

546
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 3: some stuff that's not crime? And I was like, oh yeah, right, yeah, sorry,

547
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 3: what classes this again? This is getting dark? So I

548
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 3: made sure to include some of that. This was also

549
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 3: the era of like the confessional essay.

550
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: Oh wow, So.

551
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 3: I'd be pulling stuff off like exojane or whatever, you know, yeah,

552
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 3: all kinds of stuff. But and so as we read

553
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 3: some of this stuff, I started to pull in articles

554
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 3: that would show them the different kinds of coverage that

555
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 3: people would get based on who they were. Something I

556
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 3: know you've talked about on your ship, right yeah. Yeah,

557
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 3: So one person you know, would get three hundred thousand articles,

558
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 3: one person had four Why is that? Google hits? And

559
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 3: that's how I got involved. Ultimately, I got a grant

560
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 3: to teach podcasting and then unfortunately realized I didn't know

561
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 3: how to make a podcast.

562
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: But you were teaching it was going to okay.

563
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 3: And so figured out I.

564
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: Needed how to use the equation make it till you

565
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: make it.

566
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 3: Yeah I did. But I also like did not know

567
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 3: you know, I know, you at least had like, you know,

568
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 3: made music videos and things like that. I had literally

569
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 3: never turned on a microphone.

570
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I get it, And like I didn't know

571
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: how to make a podcast either, but I had a

572
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: couple different skill sets that I had learned over the

573
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: years in the video world, like one of them the

574
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: main one being editing. Yeah, and so I edited the

575
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: entire first season of Up and Vanished in Adobe Premiere,

576
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: which is a video software program, which think about that now,

577
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: sounds like I don't even know how I could do

578
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: that today. But I had like complicated episodes just in

579
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: the audio section of the entire timeline and no video

580
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: up top because that's all I knew how to do.

581
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: And I didn't want to learn a new program yet

582
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: because learning a new program sucks.

583
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 3: That's so far above the level I was at.

584
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: Well, may I mean, what was your level at? What

585
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: were you doing?

586
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 3: Zero?

587
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: Like you've made a podcast eventually, So what happened?

588
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 3: It sounded very bad?

589
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: Okay, how'd you do it?

590
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 3: Like under a sheet, using free software?

591
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: Under a sheet, like you just wanted to look like

592
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: a ghost when you were doing it. You were trying

593
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: to optimal audio.

594
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 3: Optimally, yes, but also to make the audio sound better

595
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 3: with the roughest cuts you can imagine, and like people

596
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 3: were so nice because they could tell that our hearts

597
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 3: were pure. I roped in, she's trying.

598
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I cut guys.

599
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 3: I roped in one of my friends from college, Brooke,

600
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 3: who's a licensed professional counselor, to do family interviews, because

601
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 3: I knew that that was not my forte. Yeah, she's

602
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 3: trained me since then. That sounds much better and it's

603
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 3: helped me in my own work that I work on

604
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 3: outside of the podcast. Oh yeah, to be able to

605
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 3: talk to families sensitively, you know. But I was like,

606
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 3: that is not my area. But we were just under

607
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 3: a sheet doing terrible sounding cuts.

608
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: Not still under the sheet.

609
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 3: No, no, no. Man very very wisely hired a producer

610
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 3: named Mora Curry who came from a Georgia public broadcasting

611
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 3: and she remastered every pretty intensely.

612
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: Well. That's amazing though, because that's that's an art of

613
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: its own. Really, the fact that you can take audio

614
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: that doesn't even that doesn't sound that good and make

615
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: it sound really good is an art form. It's funny

616
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: you mentioned the the recording under a sheet. Yeah, I was.

617
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: I was recently in an airbnb in La I was

618
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: recording I think episode four, three and four of this season,

619
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: and I was just in this concrete box of an airbnb.

620
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: It was cool, but it was so echoing in there,

621
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: and so much reverb when you said anything. So I

622
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: was like looking around for a place to record that

623
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: would be decent at all. And upstairs they had like

624
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: this cabinet that if I stood, if I was standing up,

625
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: like my face would go right into this cabinet area.

626
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: And so I put a bunch of pillows back there,

627
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: and they had a curtain in front of it, so

628
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: I put the curtain behind me. Actually have a funny

629
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: video that's almost thinking. I saw that video, yes, and

630
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: truly in the moment, I look, I look crazy.

631
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 3: I thought you were in a bunk bed right, Like, it.

632
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: Doesn't make any sense where I'm at, But the audio

633
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: sounded so good. So hey, the sheet method still works.

634
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 3: I'm glad to be out from under.

635
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: I prefer to just be sitting right here and just

636
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: not have to think too much about it. Yeah. So

637
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: you you eventually graduated beyond the bedsheet, and you know

638
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: now you're doing all kinds of podcasts. You've made so

639
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: many episodes and seasons. Tell me about where you're at

640
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: now with that, and why you like the podcast format

641
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: and why you've stuck why you've stuck with.

642
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 3: The Well, podcasting to me is a lot like writing,

643
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 3: so you know, I mean you're it is writing for me. Sure,

644
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 3: That's the way I work, you know. So we work

645
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 3: on scripts for months. I write them, put them together.

646
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 3: I like, I'm a huge introvert, you know. So I

647
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 3: get to sit in the padded closet my husband built

648
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 3: for me.

649
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: Amazing.

650
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, he just made it all.

651
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: World Yeah and right like you wanted to do probably

652
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:10,879
Speaker 1: as a kid, right yeah.

653
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm an only child, So I can happily sit

654
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 3: in the closet periods of time and just talk to

655
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 3: Maura over my headphones as she chastises me for you know,

656
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 3: making too much noise, banging into stuff. And it's great.

657
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 3: But I like the medium a lot because I think

658
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 3: It's really accessible, and that's what I've always liked about it,

659
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 3: and that's why I wanted to introduce it to my students. Yeah,

660
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 3: you know, there's a low bar to entry. It's changing

661
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 3: now and that's unfortunate.

662
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's it's harder, but that still exists in

663
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: a way, and it did for a long time.

664
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I like the fact that people can hear

665
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 3: a podcast that affects them, whether it's emotionally or intellectually,

666
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 3: and makes them want to do something about the world,

667
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 3: and then they feel like, Okay, I can start this.

668
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 3: I have kids email me a lot and say, you know,

669
00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 3: how do I get started on this? And I can

670
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 3: actually tell the for like, you know, one hundred and

671
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 3: fifty bucks, you can legitimately start on this.

672
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: That them beyond uh best Buy.

673
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's yeah. And I have a list of stuff

674
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 3: from when I was still teaching I can send them

675
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 3: and that makes me feel happy because I love teenagers

676
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 3: and I love young adults from teaching them.

677
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 1: I just really do someone's got to them. I do.

678
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,280
Speaker 3: I mean, like that was my favorite part about teaching.

679
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 3: I don't like any of the rules, and I don't

680
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 3: like faculty meetings. Yeah, but I love kids because they're

681
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:28,800
Speaker 3: so cool to talk about.

682
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: I think you're so cool because you're anti that.

683
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 3: If they know that, I mean, I don't know what

684
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 3: they think. I think they were like fond of me

685
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 3: and they're like, Okay, you're you're not bad for an

686
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 3: old person.

687
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 1: You're like, I'm not that old, but okay, thanks.

688
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 3: You don't want to know how old they think people are.

689
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: I mean I don't either.

690
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 3: I guess twenty seven to them is like creaky, like

691
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 3: like like.

692
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 1: You need to go ahead and prepare I'm ancient.

693
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 3: Yeah me too, Yeah prepare for you know you're beyond dead.

694
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: Yeah I've been dead. Yeah you've been oh my ten.

695
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 3: Years, like goodbye. But they're just, you know, so excited

696
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 3: to share their thoughts about the world. So that's one

697
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 3: of the things I love about podcasting is that we

698
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 3: can hear so many voices. I hope they don't get

699
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 3: drowned out as the industry continues to sort of conglomerate.

700
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 1: How do you feel about that, because it definitely has

701
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,800
Speaker 1: You've had a podcast for quite some signon Try. I

702
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 1: think the first time I ever remember coming across your podcast,

703
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 1: like the fall line and learning of you. I want

704
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 1: to say that my favorite murder came and did a

705
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 1: show at the cob Energy Center here years ago, and

706
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: I went and I was planning on meeting them for

707
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: the first time. After the show. Actually, my friend's wife

708
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 1: came and she was actually a huge fan and thought

709
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: it was so cool. They were so nice and you know,

710
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 1: met with her, took a picture. But like, I think,

711
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: like during that show, they mentioned that there's two other

712
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 1: Atlanta podcasters here and they mentioned me and you, and

713
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: I was like, what's the fall line? I was like,

714
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: what is that? Why don't I know what that is?

715
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: And I think that's the first time I ever put

716
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: together you and you being here and like your show,

717
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 1: which this is shit. That's probably like five years ago now, yeah,

718
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 1: it was maybe more. I don't know.

719
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 3: I'll just say five, six, maybe six. I know because

720
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 3: we were sitting directly behind you because they had you

721
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 3: stand up and then they had stand up. That's how

722
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 3: I know you were there.

723
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 1: So I didn't see you because you were behind me.

724
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 1: Yeah okay, but you saw me stand up. Yeah okay,

725
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: that's funny.

726
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 3: I mean you're right in front of me, so.

727
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: It was I blocked you review my big ass said.

728
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 3: I'm really tall, so I could still say.

729
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 1: Okay, so you can still see it.

730
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 3: I don't know about Brook, she may have been plucked.

731
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: So yet you've been So much has changed in the

732
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: podcast space from a business standpoint, the amount of content,

733
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 1: and especially when it comes to true crime podcast right,

734
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: just so many of them. What are your thoughts on that?

735
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 3: It's hard. I can say this because you know, I

736
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 3: don't think people you are for all intents and purposes,

737
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 3: an indie podcaster, because you guys started out indy and

738
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 3: it's an independent company. Yeah, you know you're not. There's

739
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 3: no large conglomerate.

740
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: Not doing it for the man, you know, the corporate whatever, right.

741
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,439
Speaker 3: And I think that people forget that some of these

742
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 3: companies that have gotten bigger are independent in their own way.

743
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 3: Audio Talks independent too, absolutely, you know, I'm thinking of

744
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 3: like Malcolm Gladwall's company's independent, and you know Pushkin's independent.

745
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 3: But we have had our show. We have two shows.

746
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 3: One's The fall Ine and one's One Strange Thing. We

747
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 3: launched One Strange Thing during COVID and it has been

748
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 3: a much harder launch. It's a paranormal show that's based

749
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 3: totally on news archives and we dig into like wild stories,

750
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 3: Like right now, I'm digging into this girl who is

751
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 3: rumored to be a werewolf in Georgia.

752
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 1: Like, think that she's a werewolf right now?

753
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 3: Well, no, she's mad dead, but she died she was

754
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 3: once a werewolf. Yeah, but there's a whole Yeah. Her

755
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 3: name is Emily Eliabeth like Isabella Burt, and she's from

756
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 3: Talbot County and everyone thought she was a werewolf. But

757
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 3: I'm trying to That's what I'm trying to figure out.

758
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 3: It's like where the story started, and I'm like tracing

759
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 3: it down all these crazy newspapers and I'm in the

760
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 3: census records and like I'm really using an Enordan amount

761
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 3: of time on this. That's her other show.

762
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: It sounds fun, it's a blast. Do you think that

763
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: she really could be a werewolf? Or are werewolves real?

764
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: I won't judge you.

765
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 3: Off the record, just for your listeners. No, I don't

766
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 3: think werewolves are real. Officially for the show, maybe, yeah,

767
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 3: But do I think that people have the middle disorder

768
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 3: of like yeah, I do.

769
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: Okay, I think that somebody could act like a werewolf. Yeah,

770
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 1: in La A couple of times in downtown Hollywoo. So

771
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: the podcast space today wildly different. There's so many true

772
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: crime podcasts, and I just want your thoughts on the

773
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: fact that there is so many podcasts and the true

774
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 1: crime podcasts, and so many people are doing it in

775
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: so many different ways. And you know, I think there's

776
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 1: a right and wrong way to do everything, and there's

777
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 1: a lot of nuance that comes with that that doesn't

778
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 1: necessarily always apply to each individual, I guess show, But

779
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: you know, what are your feelings on it? Kind of

780
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: being in a way from my point of view open

781
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: season when it comes to making true crime podcasts.

782
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 3: I've heard a lot of my friends describe this industry

783
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 3: as still being in its wild West era, and I

784
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 3: feel like that's really.

785
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 1: True, do you think so?

786
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean in terms of how standards are being developed,

787
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like we're still talking about

788
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 3: like how do we do this correctly? Like you know,

789
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 3: I mean one of you. Because I think the big

790
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 3: problem here is that everybody would love like an ethics

791
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 3: template to follow, I think because that's easy because when

792
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 3: you know what's right and what's wrong, you go, okay,

793
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 3: I just have to follow this list of things, and

794
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 3: then I'm good and I and I can keep on going.

795
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: But what guides an ethics template? That's the problem, right,

796
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: where does that come from to begin with? That's somebody's

797
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: opinion really in a way that I mean like, it's not.

798
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 3: A law exactly, and there's no And that's the rub,

799
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 3: because there is no template that can apply to every situation.

800
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 3: And as soon as you try to do that, you're

801
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 3: not thinking in a nuanced way about each individual family,

802
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 3: each individual case, and the each the needs of each person,

803
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 3: because no family or case has the same needs, and

804
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,439
Speaker 3: you can't just apply a broad stroke and say I'm

805
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 3: good to go. I don't need to think deeply about

806
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 3: this anymore. And that's the problem.

807
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: And I think that's kind of what I've always leaned into,

808
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: because you're right, there is no set rule book. I

809
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: even talked about that in the latest episode Up and Vanish,

810
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: and I really was saying it in a genuine way,

811
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:16,720
Speaker 1: because if there was, I would be obviously be referring

812
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 1: to it. But I kind of felt like this was

813
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: outside of a familiar territory for me. I don't have

814
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: a lot of places and things to look at around

815
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 1: me to kind of guide how I should be conducting

816
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 1: myself based on how they did that in this extremely

817
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:43,800
Speaker 1: similar situation. And so you know, I've always leaned into

818
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: the families because they're the ones that are the most

819
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: impacted by this. They're the ones who have experienced a loss.

820
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: And just like everyone is different, every family is different too,

821
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: And you know, if they're happy with what's going on

822
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,399
Speaker 1: and how it's being treated and talked about, then that

823
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 1: gives me a lot of validation and I guess the

824
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: strength to keep going forward down that same path because

825
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: it's almost like they approved it. And you know, someone

826
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: could say, I don't think you should do this, but

827
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: if we talk together and we wanted to do this

828
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: and you wanted to do that, then that's it's like,

829
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: that's not even for you to say. Really, it's like,

830
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: you tell me what you'd want to do with your family,

831
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: like I would tell you mine. But you know, obviously

832
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 1: if you're not breaking laws and you know, morally stepping

833
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: out of bounds.

834
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, and every family wants to work differently like we

835
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 3: because we work in a way differently than you. You know,

836
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 3: like we're done by the time the episode, like you know,

837
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 3: we're not still working on something.

838
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: I mean bless you, because that sounds awesome.

839
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 3: I've done it your way once.

840
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,760
Speaker 1: It's not my preferred method, but it's hard. It's hard,

841
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 1: and I've done shows since Up and Vanish where I

842
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: don't do it that way, like High Strange. I was

843
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: completely out at one time, and with an investigative show

844
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: like this, which I learned from season one, there is

845
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: a lot to be learned when the podcast is out

846
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: and it's kind of part of the whole thing. It's like,

847
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: it's like the reason why I'm doing it. The podcast,

848
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 1: in a weird way, is a meta tool itself to

849
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 1: get people to talk more. And so if I acknowledge that,

850
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: then I'm leaving the door cracked enough to do last

851
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 1: minute changes and go get this person. If I wouldn't

852
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: have had you know, thirty or forty percent of what

853
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: you've heard so far and Up and vanished, if I didn't,

854
00:44:58,239 --> 00:44:59,320
Speaker 1: if I hadn't done that.

855
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 3: And I think that speaks to the different kinds of

856
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 3: podcasts too, because like what's investigative work versus what's informative work,

857
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 3: versus what's work that's meant to get more information out

858
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 3: to the public than they didn't have before and to

859
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 3: try and generate leads and ours falls into the latter two.

860
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 3: That's what we mostly work on.

861
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 1: Difference. Ye good examples of the difference, I think, yeah,

862
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: with our shows, Like.

863
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 3: My book was investigative, but it was written after we

864
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 3: finished the investigation, right, you know, and so that's different.

865
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 3: So like when I'm getting out on We just did

866
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 3: a series with Nashville PD on twenty two of their doecases,

867
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 3: and we helped resolve one of the cases while we

868
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 3: were working on it. But it was mostly about just

869
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 3: connecting the right people together and then figuring out where

870
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 3: information was missing. But you know, that wasn't done like

871
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 3: on the Move, Like that was done before I wrote

872
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 3: the episode, you know what I mean. So like if

873
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 3: I had to do that in the middle of it,

874
00:45:57,719 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 3: like I don't know how I would have put that

875
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 3: script together, that would have been like oh, psych, hold on, yeah,

876
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 3: let's rewind and like that what I think I would have.

877
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: Like a vision in your head, right, like an outline

878
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 1: and a script.

879
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 3: And yeah, yeah, then I would have I don't know

880
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 3: how I would have gone back and done that like

881
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 3: that would have I would have had to go to bed,

882
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 3: So you know, it's just a completely different way of

883
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 3: approaching it. So I don't know if people think that

884
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,399
Speaker 3: much about the different genres of podcasting and how they

885
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 3: serve different purposes.

886
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: Right, they kind of all lump them together, which, yeah,

887
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: they're really different things in so many ways.

888
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 3: Exactly aggregation information, reaching out to the public with costs

889
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 3: to action, investigate different purposes, and so of course we're

890
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 3: all going to operate differently.

891
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's not even like what you do and

892
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: what your I think even even the best at is

893
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: is what I'm not the best at, right is is

894
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: this sort of this sort of historical element of putting

895
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,399
Speaker 1: those pieces together and informing the public in a way

896
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four that gets their attention and does

897
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: that respectfully and pushes the ball forward. I feel like

898
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 1: I'm better at disrupting something or you know, approaching a

899
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 1: person of interest or you know, like a different style

900
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 1: of storytelling that would not be the best platform for

901
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: something like that.

902
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 3: For me specifically, I sent you one. Actually, you check

903
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 3: your tender Footy emails.

904
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: You send me an email about a case recently.

905
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, like two days ago.

906
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I didn't read it yet. What's the case?

907
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 3: I sent you a case to look at that I

908
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 3: thought would be better for up and vanish because for

909
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 3: that reason, actually that showed up in our inbox. It's

910
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 3: a more recent case, and it's a case where I'm

911
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 3: not going to say the name of the case and

912
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 3: keeps you end up doing it, but it's a case

913
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 3: where dating apps figure really heavily in the case, and

914
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,399
Speaker 3: Snapchat and things disappearing and all kinds of stuff that's

915
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 3: just out of my purview and where people in a

916
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 3: small town aren't talking.

917
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: You're on that snapchats I know.

918
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 3: I thank god my child young enough to where he

919
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 3: doesn't know what that is yet. Yeah, not hope. I'm

920
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 3: hoping it'll just gone away by that point because I

921
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 3: don't have to talk about like, don't use Snapchat.

922
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:25,879
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe snapchat goes away.

923
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 3: He's he's busy on roadblocks currently. I'll just keep feeding

924
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,919
Speaker 3: him roadblocks money with a chat turned on. But yeah,

925
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 3: I sent you won for that very reason, because it

926
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 3: was in this purview that does not fall into my

927
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 3: area of strength, which would be going and talking in

928
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:46,240
Speaker 3: a small town with people who were using dating apps

929
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 3: that people usually don't like to tell people they're on.

930
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 3: Was the sense that I got people who in a

931
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 3: small town who don't want to talk about what they're doing,

932
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 3: but are all communicating with each other sort of underneath

933
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 3: the surface.

934
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 1: Interesting.

935
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 3: Yeah thing, that's what I thought. And I was like,

936
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 3: I am, can they give me an archival newspaper article

937
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 3: about it? I don't, I don't, I don't know. So

938
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 3: I was like, there's a few people I think who

939
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 3: might be interested in this. And so that's what I do.

940
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 3: When I get stories that are outside of my area

941
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 3: of strength. I think about the people I know who

942
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 3: were good at that. That's great, and I help connect

943
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 3: families with them because I think we all have our

944
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 3: different strengths. Yeah, and I know lots of folks who

945
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 3: are good at different stuff, you know, Like, do I

946
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 3: want to get it out to a big audience? Do

947
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:24,439
Speaker 3: I need someone who can look into the special thing?

948
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 3: I think that's how we all should be working on.

949
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 1: Let's don't all assume that we're the best at anything. One,

950
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:37,479
Speaker 1: but two that if we want to genuinely help that,

951
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: one way of doing that is, you know, spreading this

952
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 1: around more with amongst ourselves and our peers. Yeah. Two, Right,

953
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: do you experience as much negative feedback as I do. No,

954
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:56,760
Speaker 1: you just know that as a definitive answer. Yeah, okay

955
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: do you How do you know? You just because you do?

956
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 3: Because I don't. We we experienced very little negative feedback.

957
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 3: That's why I know that almost none.

958
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 1: That's amazing.

959
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 3: Okay, it's a I think part of it is that.

960
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: I mean, you shouldn't and well.

961
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 3: Because part of this is but I can say that

962
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 3: because we get almost none. So part of it, I

963
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 3: think part of it is because I and this is

964
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 3: both because I have my own like separate career, you

965
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 3: know what I mean. So part of it's the fall line.

966
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 3: We're not front facing people at all, Like it's people

967
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 3: A lot of people couldn't tell you what I.

968
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 1: Look like or what Brooke looks like behind the scenes.

969
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,359
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, and then I do ost for one strange thing.

970
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 3: We're a little more forward facing, but that's like, uh,

971
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 3: like I know, we both are friends with other paranormal podcasters.

972
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 3: We can be a little more forward facing there. But

973
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 3: because it's chiller exactly.

974
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of more fun.

975
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 3: It's fun and you can have more ghost Yeah. We

976
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:52,720
Speaker 3: have done crossovers with them, like I love them both,

977
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 3: you know, and we can have fun and we you know,

978
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 3: can talk about Jeff the Ghost, mon Goose or whatever

979
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:01,400
Speaker 3: and have a good time, you know. And in terms

980
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 3: of like my writing, you know, like my book and

981
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:05,720
Speaker 3: stuff like that, like I can be more forward facing.

982
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,280
Speaker 3: But because we're so we keep ourselves in the background

983
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 3: on stuff. We don't have an audience that goes, oh,

984
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 3: hey you And you know I talked to I know,

985
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 3: my good friend Sarah Attorney was just on your show.

986
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, she's a.

987
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 3: Real good friend of mine. We had talked about this

988
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 3: a lot, and she always says to me, like Laura,

989
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 3: it's a trade off, like if you want to be

990
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 3: more successful, you do have to like come out of

991
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 3: your cave a little bit. And I'm like, eh, stay

992
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:34,879
Speaker 3: back here and just bear a fright. So I think

993
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 3: that's partially why. It's because we are very background people,

994
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 3: and we've always done that on purpose. Part of it

995
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,320
Speaker 3: is because we tell stories that have gotten just no coverage, nothing,

996
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:50,320
Speaker 3: and so oftentimes to get the story in the front.

997
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 3: We felt from the very beginning, and because we're not

998
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:55,760
Speaker 3: out doing stuff where we have to talk to people,

999
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 3: you know, we're talking to family members, like you know,

1000
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 3: I'm narrating, but we've tried to kind of pull our

1001
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:05,320
Speaker 3: personalities back, and that's been both a detriment and a benefit.

1002
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 3: That makes sense. It keeps us in the middle. You

1003
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 3: have to have personality to go to the top. It's

1004
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 3: just the truth. You're not going to get to the

1005
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 3: top without inserting yourself, like your personality, because you need

1006
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,839
Speaker 3: listeners to connect to your show me one at the top.

1007
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 3: Even even case File, even though he's anonymous, people can

1008
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 3: to the fact that he's anonymous.

1009
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:28,799
Speaker 1: Yea, though, yeah, you still like him.

1010
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 3: They gave him a nickname, you know what I mean, Like,

1011
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 3: you know, but there's not there's people who can't who

1012
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 3: could name this both my podcasts, but couldn't pick me

1013
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 3: out of a lineup. You know, he's anonymous, So okay,

1014
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 3: you know even you know, I'm good friends with the

1015
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 3: host of Swindled and his being anonymous is a shtick,

1016
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 3: but his personality comes through very much, right, Okay. Yeah,

1017
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 3: And we've pulled back on that, and so I mean,

1018
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 3: it's so I think that's why we don't get it.

1019
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. I had this moment yesterday where you know, I'm

1020
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:03,240
Speaker 1: pretty good at keeping the blinders on and not really

1021
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 1: paying too much attention to negativity on the internet one

1022
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 1: because I've just seen it for a long time. Even

1023
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 1: before I made podcasts, I'd seen it, like when I

1024
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,399
Speaker 1: back when I was doing music, which is a whole

1025
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 1: nother story, and doing music videos on YouTube, we were

1026
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 1: getting like a lot of views back then, and there

1027
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:29,719
Speaker 1: was you know, I was that was my first kind

1028
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 1: of introduction to an online stranger saying whatever they wanted

1029
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 1: about how they thought about me. And so I've gotten

1030
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 1: used to that. But you know, I feel like with

1031
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: true crime, specifically because of the subject matter and the

1032
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 1: serious nature of it and just the level of realness

1033
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 1: and just what's at stake here, it's almost like it's

1034
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 1: the highest it could be. Yeah, I feel like that

1035
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 1: elicits emotions from people even as listeners. And I feel like,

1036
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 1: because I'm an outward voice in the show, it's kind

1037
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 1: of like I become subject to I don't know, some

1038
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,399
Speaker 1: of those feelings as well in a way, because I'm

1039
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,800
Speaker 1: just I'm like, who you have. You got the family,

1040
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:30,840
Speaker 1: the victim, the police, the persons of interest, the friends,

1041
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:34,280
Speaker 1: and then you have this person who's going around staying

1042
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:37,800
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff and putting it all together, you know,

1043
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm in this bag of individuals now

1044
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 1: where you can I don't know, associate something to that,

1045
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 1: some sort of strong emotion. But I was sent like

1046
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 1: a Reddit thread. I was like, Oh, it's a new one. Cool.

1047
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: I was like, you know what's funny is like and

1048
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:01,399
Speaker 1: it's not that like I'm talking about it and I'm

1049
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: trying to figure a way to say this where it

1050
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:08,399
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like that it bothers me like this much

1051
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 1: because it really doesn't. I think it's more of a

1052
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 1: awareness thing that I've developed that some people are just disappointing,

1053
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 1: and that's kind of what it is. It's like, it's

1054
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 1: not bringing me down. But if I were to sit

1055
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: here and say you suck, you suck, you suck, like

1056
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 1: eventually you'd be like shut up, that's annoying or like

1057
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 1: stop doing that. Like I'm trying to focus on this

1058
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 1: and I don't know. I just I'm always curious about

1059
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 1: the human psychology of it, and I could see how

1060
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 1: somebody would I'd probably think that I was a douchebag.

1061
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 1: I'd be like, who's this guy think he is? But

1062
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 1: I thought that's also a bullshit take and also like

1063
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:58,399
Speaker 1: low hanging fruit and you didn't really put any thought

1064
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 1: into it. You didn't really care want to. But it's

1065
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 1: just funny because I always want other people's perspectives on that.

1066
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 3: It's interesting because I think that every person that does

1067
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 3: documentary podcasting, because I really think that is the genre, right,

1068
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 3: I mean, maybe that's not to put it. I think

1069
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 3: it is because if I think about like Connie Walker,

1070
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 3: or David Ridgin or your own backyard Chris what is

1071
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 3: his last name?

1072
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 1: Lambert?

1073
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:30,320
Speaker 3: Thank you? I told you bet anyone that does like

1074
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 3: because it's very that's a different genre, different than what

1075
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 3: I do, different than what a lot of people do

1076
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:38,719
Speaker 3: where people are out in the world, you know what

1077
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 3: I mean, doing things on the ground as it happens.

1078
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 3: Everyone's going to have a distinctly different personality, hide and

1079
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 3: seeks another one, and there's and there's other ones. Yeah,

1080
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 3: I haven't listened to it, but I know that's a

1081
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 3: documentary podcast.

1082
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 1: Good so.

1083
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:57,320
Speaker 3: And I've taught I've actually taught some of these in

1084
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 3: my classes. Yeah, I taught Connie now she's at three,

1085
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 3: but both of her podcasts. Every party is going to

1086
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 3: have a different personality how they there, and people are

1087
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:10,840
Speaker 3: going to either operate on like how they connect to

1088
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 3: the case. They may step back and operate as the

1089
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 3: camera with very little you know what I mean, Like

1090
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 3: what's your camera position? You know what I mean? Like

1091
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 3: are you in front of the camera? Are you behind

1092
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 3: the camera? And people are going to respond to that differently.

1093
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 3: Some people want someone in front of the camera, some

1094
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 3: people want someone behind the camera. And your audience is

1095
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:30,400
Speaker 3: going to say, I want you in front of the camera,

1096
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 3: I want you behind the camera. But they're not going

1097
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 3: to be uniform, you know what I mean. No audience

1098
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 3: is going to be uniform on that. When I got

1099
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 3: reviews from my book, I didn't read them actually at all,

1100
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 3: none of them. What's what it's like, Okay, look, well

1101
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 3: the podcast you can make adjustments. Books book's done. Yeah,

1102
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 3: the book is done. Dude, Like, oh well, like it's

1103
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 3: too late for me, you know what I mean. But

1104
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 3: my dad decided to give me a rundown anyway, Christmas,

1105
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 3: Merry Christmas reviews some of them.

1106
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 1: He's a writer.

1107
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 3: I guess youself, you know. But I was like, Dad, stop,

1108
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 3: like it's late, but he said positive, Well, thank you

1109
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 3: very much. I appreciate you checking them. But even if

1110
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 3: you didn't, I appreciate that.

1111
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 1: I know from other people that have read your book.

1112
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 1: I have not read your book yet, but i've I've

1113
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 1: perused it before today's interview.

1114
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 3: Very very good prep.

1115
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 1: It would take me nine months to read this book. Okay,

1116
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: well yeah, yeah, that's on me.

1117
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's no. Well you didn't know. I'm just telling you.

1118
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: Now, Look, I didn't know. Everyone knows paying.

1119
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 3: My own husband. You saw did you see the bookmark

1120
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 3: that was in there? It was like thirty pages in here.

1121
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 3: Oh he may I may have pulled it out, but

1122
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 3: that was my that's my husband's cot like six months ago.

1123
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 3: Probably the book came on October. Yeah, so yeah, and

1124
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 3: we were married.

1125
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 1: So it was like, I already know this story, but half.

1126
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 3: The people said there wasn't. I didn't put myself enough

1127
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 3: in there, and half of them said I inserted myself

1128
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 3: too much.

1129
00:58:56,840 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 1: So Dan, if you do, if you don't, I think that.

1130
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 3: Do I have advice for you about what to do

1131
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 3: about that? I don't.

1132
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 1: I don't really mean advice, yeah, but or like thought take.

1133
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 3: Or take on that.

1134
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1135
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 3: I think that ultimately you have to be happy with

1136
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 3: the product that you're putting out. Do you know what

1137
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 3: I mean? Like it does it serve the purpose that

1138
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 3: you want it to serve. Like, we decided really early

1139
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 3: on that we had to be way in the background

1140
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:28,439
Speaker 3: to serve the purpose that we wanted it to serve.

1141
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 3: And there are some drawbacks to that, right, And the

1142
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 3: drawbacks are that we don't connect with our audience. The

1143
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 3: story connects, but we don't connect, and that does affect

1144
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 3: our ability to grow our podcast in some ways. It

1145
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:45,120
Speaker 3: just does. That's just what it comes down to. And

1146
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 3: it's not the same thing for ost but it does.

1147
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 3: And so I think that you have to just weigh, like,

1148
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 3: where do I belong in the story? You know what

1149
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 3: I mean? Like, and is being here where I am

1150
00:59:57,560 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 3: in the story? Is this important? And I think that's

1151
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 3: just because that's this just comes from me being a

1152
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 3: creative writing professor. I think and like, is my narrative

1153
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 3: position here here, here, here, And I think every documentary

1154
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:10,960
Speaker 3: podcast maker has to decide that, Yeah, And if it

1155
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:12,720
Speaker 3: feels like the right place to you, then that's the

1156
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 3: right place to you.

1157
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 1: I've just personally, as a listener and viewer of other content,

1158
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 1: have personally enjoyed the most the first person narrative perspective.

1159
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:29,640
Speaker 1: My favorite movies are the ones that have a narrator

1160
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 1: like Shawshank Redemption or something right, movies that have like

1161
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 1: an omniscient voice like for me one, I think I

1162
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: follow it better, but I kind of like this sort

1163
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 1: of balance between it's something playing out and some other

1164
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 1: thing that's like working around it, just from a storytelling standpoint,

1165
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 1: And I think that some people have viewed that up

1166
01:00:55,000 --> 01:01:00,840
Speaker 1: and vanished at least as like a like a more

1167
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 1: of a selfish insertion for like my own gratification or something,

1168
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:09,920
Speaker 1: which I mean, like it's the furthest thing from that.

1169
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:15,400
Speaker 1: I'm cringing myself in every edit. But I like telling

1170
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: the story that way, and I've just tried to only

1171
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 1: expand on what that experience is really like, because I

1172
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 1: feel like in a lot of the documentary true crime podcasts,

1173
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,959
Speaker 1: you don't always get the other human side of what's

1174
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 1: really going on. Like you hear a voice and the

1175
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 1: audio sounds good. How did we get here? Like like

1176
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 1: did you forget? Because I think you did that. We

1177
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 1: talked to all of these people in real life, like

1178
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 1: we met them. It wasn't easy. They were hesitant, or

1179
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 1: they were appreciative or like all these different nuances to

1180
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 1: like what's going on instead of just being so buttoned

1181
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 1: up that it just feels like, I don't know, like

1182
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:02,000
Speaker 1: surreal and not very real, and like that was my

1183
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:04,760
Speaker 1: approach this season. I kind of wanted to show that more,

1184
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 1: knowing that I'd open myself up for more criticism and

1185
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 1: sort of the why are you putting yourself in the

1186
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 1: story take? But I also chose to, you know, if

1187
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 1: I was gonna do it that way, go the extra

1188
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 1: mile and go find that Oregon John guy, right, Like,

1189
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 1: if I'm gonna do it, am i am? I gonna

1190
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 1: actually hop on the saddle and really really do it.

1191
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 1: And so that's like, you know, the challenge I put

1192
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: forth to myself so I would feel okay about it

1193
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:35,720
Speaker 1: to be honest and take you through what that was like,

1194
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 1: because I feel like I would be curious. I'd want

1195
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:43,480
Speaker 1: to know what that was like personally me, do.

1196
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:46,880
Speaker 3: You feel like as someone with the background and film

1197
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 3: that it's filling in for you that visual aspect that

1198
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 3: is missing for you and podcasting, so do you feel

1199
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 3: like you need to fill in the visual aspect because

1200
01:02:58,080 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 3: that's what was occurring to me when you're talking.

1201
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, how I make the show first is I

1202
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:07,880
Speaker 1: get all these interviews and everything, and I build it

1203
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 1: out in segments, right, and they've kind of become in

1204
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 1: sequential order, and so at a certain point, you know,

1205
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 1: but when it's like seventy percent done, you could play

1206
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:24,200
Speaker 1: it and there'll be gaps where my vo will come

1207
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:27,720
Speaker 1: in eventually, but it's not there yet, and I want

1208
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 1: to be able to hear it, and like you should

1209
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 1: able to hear that and know what's going on, Like

1210
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:37,440
Speaker 1: they're telling the story, so anything that I'm saying now

1211
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 1: is additive or is expanding on it in some way,

1212
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:46,320
Speaker 1: and so I can so it's less reliant, and so

1213
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 1: I'm either there just to help like push it along

1214
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 1: because you can't have subtitles or whatever in a podcast,

1215
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:57,919
Speaker 1: or to paint a picture or to add some other

1216
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:02,160
Speaker 1: story element that is my own or whatever it is.

1217
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 1: And so like that's my method. I do my video

1218
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:08,920
Speaker 1: dead last, but I think over time it's kind of

1219
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 1: become its own thread.

1220
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 3: As somebody who's not so visual, I do like a plot.

1221
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:18,720
Speaker 1: Arc, okay, like like a like a writer classics like

1222
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 1: story arc.

1223
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:21,320
Speaker 3: Like a story arc, and I like break it down

1224
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:23,520
Speaker 3: that way, and it's just interesting to me because I

1225
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 3: think that what you're describing makes me think of you

1226
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:29,400
Speaker 3: hearing voiceover in your head when you're breaking it down.

1227
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:30,600
Speaker 1: Hear it now when I'm editing.

1228
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so I think maybe what we're talking about

1229
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:37,440
Speaker 3: here are just fundamentally different approaches. Yes, and I think

1230
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:43,080
Speaker 3: that all of the documentary podcasters do use voiceover maybe

1231
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 3: when we talk to people, And I think people can

1232
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:49,520
Speaker 3: still offer their critiques. By the way, people don't talk

1233
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:52,080
Speaker 3: shit online, but they do talk shit in their reviews.

1234
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 3: I should mention this. Everyone says that I sound like

1235
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:57,240
Speaker 3: Siri and now they say AI instead.

1236
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 1: Have you ever done an AI version of your voice?

1237
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 4: No?

1238
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:04,080
Speaker 3: Right now, I have really bad allergies, so I don't

1239
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:05,280
Speaker 3: think anybody wants to hear that.

1240
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, I would sound just fine.

1241
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:13,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I will say I think that women podcasters just

1242
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 3: get raked over the calls for our voices in general.

1243
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 1: But yeah, but yeah, that's annoying, that's unfortunate.

1244
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 3: We do get shipped on in reviews, just just for

1245
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 3: vocals one hundred percent. So I shouldn't. I wanted to

1246
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:29,080
Speaker 3: share that with you so you didn't just feel like

1247
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:32,440
Speaker 3: just you were getting But I think that maybe if

1248
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:36,040
Speaker 3: we all started to think about how the different genres

1249
01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 3: are put together, and like what the conceits of genres are.

1250
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:43,280
Speaker 3: We could then talk about like what they need to function,

1251
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:45,360
Speaker 3: and then we could kind of weigh them against each other.

1252
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:47,280
Speaker 3: We can still have critiques of them. We can say

1253
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:50,280
Speaker 3: this persons we need that. We can say we don't

1254
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 3: like this about how this person does this. We wish

1255
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:55,919
Speaker 3: this person talked more about themselves, this person talked less.

1256
01:05:56,040 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 3: We want this person not to tip the hat to whatever. Right,

1257
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:04,640
Speaker 3: But I think we talk not enough about the expectations

1258
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:06,360
Speaker 3: of genre, and that's kind of important.

1259
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:07,280
Speaker 1: That's a good point.

1260
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:09,320
Speaker 3: How do we combine, Like we can't compare.

1261
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:12,400
Speaker 1: That's a creator's perspective.

1262
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is a creator's.

1263
01:06:13,640 --> 01:06:15,640
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, the lay person's like, I don't

1264
01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:16,800
Speaker 1: give a shit about that.

1265
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:19,480
Speaker 3: But I think they might. They do, because if some

1266
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:22,640
Speaker 3: people will, people get excited to learn, Like this is

1267
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 3: the teacher I do.

1268
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:26,240
Speaker 1: I think a lot of our listeners do.

1269
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:28,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like teacher me coming in is saying that when

1270
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:31,200
Speaker 3: people have the language to discuss things, they're excited to

1271
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 3: discuss them. I really think that because people like to

1272
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:36,800
Speaker 3: learn about things they're interested in.

1273
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 1: So the future of true crime podcasting, Like where do

1274
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:46,080
Speaker 1: you want to see it go? And like, I was

1275
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:51,200
Speaker 1: really in my own dilemma with this last episode, and

1276
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:53,520
Speaker 1: I really I meant all those things that I said,

1277
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 1: and like, as I sort of formulated it over time

1278
01:06:56,320 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 1: and sat with it and really kind of zoomed out,

1279
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 1: I felt a little less scared about the whole thing.

1280
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:08,960
Speaker 1: But I've never done anything like this where I tricked

1281
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:13,480
Speaker 1: somebody in order to talk to them, and I felt like,

1282
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:16,960
Speaker 1: in this scenario, it was the only way I could

1283
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:20,760
Speaker 1: do this. And I guess you could say that we

1284
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:24,440
Speaker 1: don't know that, but I've done this enough times and

1285
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:26,400
Speaker 1: you can look back at all the people I've ever

1286
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:29,720
Speaker 1: confronted from the up and Ventish TV show, there's like

1287
01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:34,720
Speaker 1: five people there. There's dead and Gone Bo. There's Catfish

1288
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:41,280
Speaker 1: John in season two, which is ironic. There's Paul in

1289
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:46,880
Speaker 1: season three. It's a lot of and they're all bad dudes,

1290
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:50,920
Speaker 1: like they really like whether they did anything related to

1291
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:53,560
Speaker 1: their disappearance or not, which there's a lot of evidence

1292
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:59,000
Speaker 1: that supports that they're bad dudes. And I'm just so

1293
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:03,160
Speaker 1: sick of of I don't know, giving them a pass.

1294
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:08,560
Speaker 1: If the FBI does this stuff. Now I'm not the FBI,

1295
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:11,120
Speaker 1: so but like, yeah, they have a badge, they did training,

1296
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:13,840
Speaker 1: but like I don't know where's the line or the

1297
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 1: rule book for investigative journalism undercover stuff like does that exist?

1298
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:24,639
Speaker 1: I mean people have clearly done this before in some way,

1299
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:28,560
Speaker 1: But I don't know what was your like when you

1300
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:32,519
Speaker 1: listen to it. Did it rub you the wrong way

1301
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 1: or did it feel what did it feel like to you?

1302
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:35,360
Speaker 1: Or I don't know.

1303
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:37,920
Speaker 3: I tend to err on the set of caution myself,

1304
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:39,839
Speaker 3: you know. But you know, I work with law enforcement

1305
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:43,080
Speaker 3: a lot, so you know, not that they're sending me

1306
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:45,559
Speaker 3: out in the field, right, They're not like wire you up,

1307
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:46,280
Speaker 3: go on the field?

1308
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:48,840
Speaker 1: Oh you again? Yeah, like that.

1309
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:51,479
Speaker 3: I am not someone to put out into the field

1310
01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:54,719
Speaker 3: because I would be like, can I schedule an appointment

1311
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:57,479
Speaker 3: with you to like I said, sinja zoom link and

1312
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 3: we can chat. Yeah, that's not gonna work. I work

1313
01:09:00,360 --> 01:09:03,519
Speaker 3: with law enforcement on the back end, like getting Like

1314
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:05,800
Speaker 3: I said, one of my great skills in life is

1315
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:06,879
Speaker 3: getting into a fileroom.

1316
01:09:07,360 --> 01:09:10,080
Speaker 1: That is what I'm good at.

1317
01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:14,040
Speaker 3: That they tend to light me and get in the fireroom.

1318
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:16,519
Speaker 3: I get the yeah, yeah, that's.

1319
01:09:16,360 --> 01:09:17,120
Speaker 1: The English teacher.

1320
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:21,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, good at that building trust. I'm good at that,

1321
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:28,240
Speaker 3: but not someone who generally will go speak to people

1322
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:34,000
Speaker 3: where I'm worried about it affecting an investigation. In this case,

1323
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:40,120
Speaker 3: it feels a little individual and unique because when I

1324
01:09:40,280 --> 01:09:42,760
Speaker 3: heard them say that Florence didn't have a case file,

1325
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 3: that made me really pause because if that is indeed

1326
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 3: the case, I really question whether there would be any

1327
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:56,639
Speaker 3: effect on an investigation. Now in terms of like whether

1328
01:09:57,080 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 3: tape could be used in an investigation, that's a whole

1329
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:02,040
Speaker 3: different thing because of chain of evidence. I don't know, right,

1330
01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:08,240
Speaker 3: that's that's outside my purview. But speaking to somebody, I

1331
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:11,760
Speaker 3: feel like reporters speak to people. I don't consider myself

1332
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:15,280
Speaker 3: to be a journalist. I consider myself to be a writer, researcher,

1333
01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:17,479
Speaker 3: you know, Like I didn't go to Jay school, like

1334
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:21,320
Speaker 3: you know, Like I just I didn't study enough about journalism.

1335
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:22,519
Speaker 1: To feel like this.

1336
01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:24,640
Speaker 3: I just I feel like I have to have. I

1337
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:26,680
Speaker 3: feel like we this is something that me and more

1338
01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 3: talk about a lot because she is a journalist, Like

1339
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:32,960
Speaker 3: we feel like we practice journalism often, but like to

1340
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:36,040
Speaker 3: be a journalist, I feel like I would have to

1341
01:10:36,120 --> 01:10:38,280
Speaker 3: know a little bit more about what it's like to

1342
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:41,280
Speaker 3: work day to day for a large journalism outlet, to

1343
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:43,400
Speaker 3: have been given those assignments to learn it. But I

1344
01:10:43,439 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 3: feel like everybody can call themselves whatever they want. We're

1345
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:49,280
Speaker 3: all just giving ourselves titles wright, writer, researcher. Works for

1346
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:51,559
Speaker 3: me because that's what I do most stuff, Like I'm

1347
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:53,639
Speaker 3: not out in the field, like being like not knock hello,

1348
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:55,519
Speaker 3: please don't shoot me at the door. You know what

1349
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 3: I mean, don't I'm not going to.

1350
01:10:58,600 --> 01:10:59,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, no need to.

1351
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:03,559
Speaker 3: My health insurance is not great pain and self employed, yeah, but.

1352
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:06,639
Speaker 1: Hey, I mean the fileroom is a safe place.

1353
01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:10,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, do you know usually do you know how

1354
01:11:10,360 --> 01:11:13,799
Speaker 3: often we had come upon remain like where human remains

1355
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:14,520
Speaker 3: in filerooms?

1356
01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:18,840
Speaker 1: Like don't less than zero less? So okay, that's too

1357
01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:19,400
Speaker 1: many times.

1358
01:11:19,439 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 3: We'll talk sometime about how remains get lost and how

1359
01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:25,599
Speaker 3: we find them, how we find them Human remains get

1360
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:28,280
Speaker 3: lost in cases all the time. That's just okay, and

1361
01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:30,599
Speaker 3: then we have to go look for them. Different story.

1362
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:33,519
Speaker 3: But I think that in a case where there's no

1363
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 3: file and everything's that a dead end, it could be

1364
01:11:40,479 --> 01:11:44,519
Speaker 3: reasonable to speak with somebody. And this seems like a

1365
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 3: unique situation to me, honestly, Yeah, that's how I felt

1366
01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:52,200
Speaker 3: would in other situations. If you had been, for some

1367
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:55,559
Speaker 3: reason to call me someone who was an acquaintance, to say, Laura,

1368
01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:58,280
Speaker 3: should I go do this? I would likely have said no,

1369
01:11:58,400 --> 01:12:01,439
Speaker 3: you should not, right, Yeah, this is I mean, now

1370
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:05,120
Speaker 3: correct me if I'm wrong. But didn't the retired police

1371
01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:07,679
Speaker 3: officer who is now a detective also think you should

1372
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:08,040
Speaker 3: go do that?

1373
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:11,720
Speaker 1: Was it? He surprised me by that. I thought for

1374
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:14,160
Speaker 1: sure he was gonna say something along the lines of

1375
01:12:14,920 --> 01:12:16,840
Speaker 1: hey man, like this is where I would draw the line.

1376
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:22,720
Speaker 1: He was like, no, keep doing this. Even beyond our

1377
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:23,360
Speaker 1: first meeting.

1378
01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:27,040
Speaker 3: I was like, really, he seemed to support it, which

1379
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:27,439
Speaker 3: to me.

1380
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:30,600
Speaker 1: Because he also knows about the police.

1381
01:12:30,360 --> 01:12:34,800
Speaker 3: Up there, Yeah, which made me think that perhaps he

1382
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:36,920
Speaker 3: felt like the case was just not going to be

1383
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:39,840
Speaker 3: getting looked into at all. So it seemed to me

1384
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:41,320
Speaker 3: like a special situation.

1385
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:45,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's how I felt about it. And you know,

1386
01:12:45,320 --> 01:12:48,680
Speaker 1: I look at it like, Okay, what's the goal? The

1387
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:52,320
Speaker 1: goals to find out what happened? I can't arrest anybody

1388
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:55,320
Speaker 1: that's not I don't have the ability to write I

1389
01:12:55,400 --> 01:12:58,559
Speaker 1: could lay out I could find all the smoking guns

1390
01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:04,040
Speaker 1: I could have written in verbal, you know, video confessions

1391
01:13:04,320 --> 01:13:06,479
Speaker 1: that add up. I can have all this stuff in

1392
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:10,080
Speaker 1: a box for law enforcement and give it to them,

1393
01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:13,720
Speaker 1: and I can't make anyone do anything with that, or

1394
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:18,560
Speaker 1: or control how how fast they do it, if it

1395
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:21,160
Speaker 1: works or not in the court system, if it sticks,

1396
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:23,920
Speaker 1: Zero control over that. And so I guess one of

1397
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:27,800
Speaker 1: the fears would be, Okay, well what if we learn

1398
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:30,880
Speaker 1: all this stuff and we can't use it in court now?

1399
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:33,439
Speaker 1: Well my response to that would be like, Okay, well,

1400
01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:36,679
Speaker 1: we only are saying that because now we know something,

1401
01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:40,360
Speaker 1: like we knew we didn't know that before. So, like,

1402
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:43,439
Speaker 1: you know, is there value in knowing something for the family?

1403
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:47,920
Speaker 1: There is, because part of what they're going through that

1404
01:13:48,080 --> 01:13:52,920
Speaker 1: they they've told me in the this traumatic experience, obviously

1405
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:56,479
Speaker 1: they want justice, they also want to find flow. They

1406
01:13:56,560 --> 01:14:00,920
Speaker 1: also want to know what happened right and feel like

1407
01:14:01,040 --> 01:14:05,360
Speaker 1: they're not crazy for thinking this Oregon John guy may

1408
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:10,960
Speaker 1: be associated with it, and you know, I can only

1409
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:13,680
Speaker 1: imagine what that would feel like, But trying to put

1410
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:16,600
Speaker 1: myself on their shoes, I would I would want to know,

1411
01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:21,000
Speaker 1: and I think that there's value in that. And if

1412
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:24,439
Speaker 1: it's a step that should have been taken that wasn't

1413
01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:27,160
Speaker 1: by law enforcement. Then at least that's being called out.

1414
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:31,640
Speaker 1: It's not like it's over. You guys have resources that

1415
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:34,960
Speaker 1: I don't have, you know, I just dug something up

1416
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:39,240
Speaker 1: for you. Hopefully you do something with it, and at

1417
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:43,800
Speaker 1: least if you don't, everyone knows that you didn't. Because

1418
01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:47,280
Speaker 1: I think that there's a lack of accountability that's existed

1419
01:14:47,400 --> 01:14:52,920
Speaker 1: in this particular area for a long time. That that's

1420
01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:56,519
Speaker 1: one thing that I can do, is say, hey, everybody,

1421
01:14:57,000 --> 01:15:00,240
Speaker 1: look what's going on over here. That's like one of

1422
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:02,639
Speaker 1: the few things that are in my control is actually

1423
01:15:03,160 --> 01:15:06,800
Speaker 1: doing that, exposing it. And you know, I don't know,

1424
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:09,800
Speaker 1: maybe people feel the pressure of that or do the

1425
01:15:09,880 --> 01:15:10,160
Speaker 1: right thing.

1426
01:15:11,120 --> 01:15:13,479
Speaker 3: If it's true that she doesn't have a file, it's

1427
01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:18,479
Speaker 3: incredibly egregious, and I think getting that information out there

1428
01:15:19,439 --> 01:15:23,280
Speaker 3: is important because that would then perhaps force the hand

1429
01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:27,599
Speaker 3: of law enforcement to reopen her investigation, because it's obvious

1430
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:29,960
Speaker 3: that if she doesn't have a file, there is no investigation,

1431
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:34,240
Speaker 3: you know, and that needs to be exposed. So, I mean,

1432
01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:35,000
Speaker 3: and that's important.

1433
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:37,599
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it's lost in limbo between the known

1434
01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:40,840
Speaker 1: police department and the FBI. Yeah, and I think that

1435
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:42,720
Speaker 1: they were telling the truth when they said they don't

1436
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:45,479
Speaker 1: have a case file, because I've always imagined, well, what

1437
01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:47,320
Speaker 1: the hell could be in it, because I've never heard

1438
01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:50,240
Speaker 1: of anyone being interviewed ever. Yeah, so like what would

1439
01:15:50,240 --> 01:15:53,680
Speaker 1: even be in there? Organ John talks about this too,

1440
01:15:54,080 --> 01:16:00,280
Speaker 1: and you know about being investigated, but you know, without

1441
01:16:00,280 --> 01:16:02,640
Speaker 1: giving too much away, I think it lines up with

1442
01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:05,120
Speaker 1: they're probably not being a case file.

1443
01:16:06,320 --> 01:16:09,640
Speaker 3: An incident report probably, And then because you said it

1444
01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:11,880
Speaker 3: got passed over to the FBI, but you're not clear

1445
01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:12,920
Speaker 3: on what the FBI did.

1446
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:16,960
Speaker 1: To my knowledge, it never got officially passed over. At

1447
01:16:17,040 --> 01:16:20,919
Speaker 1: one point, early on, a few weeks in they requested

1448
01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:26,639
Speaker 1: assistance from the FBI Anchorage office for help searching right,

1449
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:29,000
Speaker 1: and so they came to Known for a few days

1450
01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:32,519
Speaker 1: a few agents to help do a ground search for

1451
01:16:32,680 --> 01:16:37,799
Speaker 1: her body. And they left and to my knowledge, haven't

1452
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:41,639
Speaker 1: been back there. When I emailed the FBI, they deferred

1453
01:16:41,720 --> 01:16:44,080
Speaker 1: me to Known PD like if you talk to them first,

1454
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:48,639
Speaker 1: get like pointing the finger that these are the it's

1455
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:52,240
Speaker 1: their case. They can call us at any time and

1456
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:54,240
Speaker 1: we can get involved. But I think it's been stuck

1457
01:16:54,280 --> 01:16:57,479
Speaker 1: in limbo where they're not really doing anything, they're not

1458
01:16:57,640 --> 01:17:01,320
Speaker 1: asking for help for whatever reason. But again, we should know,

1459
01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:04,240
Speaker 1: her family, should know, the community should know, and so

1460
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:08,720
Speaker 1: let's find out, tell us, tell them. Yeah, and that's

1461
01:17:08,760 --> 01:17:09,479
Speaker 1: all I can really do.

1462
01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:13,680
Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, I mean getting a case officially handed over

1463
01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:16,560
Speaker 3: is different than getting resources brought in. We know this

1464
01:17:16,680 --> 01:17:20,000
Speaker 3: from Georgia with the GBI because the GBI often comes

1465
01:17:20,080 --> 01:17:24,719
Speaker 3: in to assist with a smaller police department or sheriff's office,

1466
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:28,160
Speaker 3: and they'll come in and they'll lend help with searches,

1467
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:31,599
Speaker 3: the lend help with the labs, but officially taking over

1468
01:17:31,640 --> 01:17:32,719
Speaker 3: a case is a different story.

1469
01:17:33,200 --> 01:17:35,360
Speaker 1: Let's talk about your book real quick and where people

1470
01:17:35,400 --> 01:17:35,880
Speaker 1: can find.

1471
01:17:35,760 --> 01:17:38,240
Speaker 3: It, Okay, which is it came out? It's called Lay

1472
01:17:38,280 --> 01:17:41,400
Speaker 3: Them to Rest, and it is about forensic science and

1473
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:45,560
Speaker 3: also my experience following forensic experts as we work to

1474
01:17:45,640 --> 01:17:48,439
Speaker 3: solve the cold case of the woman formerly known as

1475
01:17:48,479 --> 01:17:51,799
Speaker 3: Aina Jane Doe. She's a homicide victim that was discovered

1476
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:54,519
Speaker 3: in the state park and the small town of Ayna, Illinois,

1477
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:57,479
Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety three. I spent a couple of years

1478
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:00,280
Speaker 3: learning about forensic science because as I begin to work

1479
01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:03,920
Speaker 3: on DOE cases. I realized that I didn't know much

1480
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:06,639
Speaker 3: about forensic science being a cretive writing professional.

1481
01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:08,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know much at all.

1482
01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:09,960
Speaker 3: I had to learn everything.

1483
01:18:10,120 --> 01:18:10,360
Speaker 1: Wow.

1484
01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:13,439
Speaker 3: So and now, like I consider myself now like a

1485
01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:16,559
Speaker 3: good solid sixth grade level of forensic science.

1486
01:18:16,600 --> 01:18:17,080
Speaker 1: Pretty good.

1487
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:20,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I had good teachers. So I worked closely

1488
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:25,560
Speaker 3: with a lot of really wonderful folks, artists, forensic identologists, anthropologists,

1489
01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:30,519
Speaker 3: DNA scientist, genealogist who taught me things. So we worked

1490
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:34,080
Speaker 3: on this case from the very beginning. The Sheriff's office

1491
01:18:34,320 --> 01:18:36,320
Speaker 3: was nice enough to hand over the case to us.

1492
01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:39,720
Speaker 3: We did skeletal analysis. When I say we, like I

1493
01:18:39,880 --> 01:18:43,160
Speaker 3: watched right, yeah, and like took notes. But I did

1494
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:45,519
Speaker 3: the case file review and I did the research on

1495
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:47,679
Speaker 3: the case. And her case got solved.

1496
01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:48,799
Speaker 1: That's amazing.

1497
01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:50,840
Speaker 3: So the case gets solved during the book, and I

1498
01:18:50,920 --> 01:18:53,080
Speaker 3: spent the last six months of it working directly with

1499
01:18:53,160 --> 01:18:57,719
Speaker 3: her family. So she has been identified as Susan menard Lund,

1500
01:18:57,880 --> 01:19:01,439
Speaker 3: a twenty five year old mother from Tennessee who disappeared

1501
01:19:01,439 --> 01:19:02,200
Speaker 3: on Christmas Eve.

1502
01:19:02,520 --> 01:19:02,720
Speaker 1: Wow.

1503
01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:06,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so it's it's a and that's not spoiling

1504
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:07,360
Speaker 3: it because there's a lot more in the book.

1505
01:19:07,920 --> 01:19:10,320
Speaker 1: How did that feel? How does that feel like you

1506
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:11,439
Speaker 1: solve the case?

1507
01:19:11,880 --> 01:19:14,120
Speaker 3: I helped solve it. I helped solve the case.

1508
01:19:14,240 --> 01:19:16,400
Speaker 1: So did you really did? It was.

1509
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:21,720
Speaker 3: Really, really, really amazing to meet her family. I met

1510
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:24,599
Speaker 3: them the night before the press conference at Cracker Barrel.

1511
01:19:25,479 --> 01:19:28,680
Speaker 3: I took them out to dinner. Yeah. I hadn't been

1512
01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:31,320
Speaker 3: to Cracker Barrel. I didn't know they had them. I

1513
01:19:31,400 --> 01:19:32,439
Speaker 3: thought it was a Southern thing.

1514
01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:33,840
Speaker 1: It is definitely a Southern thing.

1515
01:19:33,920 --> 01:19:36,000
Speaker 3: But they have a Manila they have a manilanois. Apparently

1516
01:19:36,040 --> 01:19:37,920
Speaker 3: it's a Midwestern thing. So people applied to us.

1517
01:19:37,920 --> 01:19:39,080
Speaker 1: I could see them in Illinois.

1518
01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:41,760
Speaker 3: But it was just amazing to sit there with them

1519
01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:44,240
Speaker 3: because they brought these pictures of her that had been

1520
01:19:44,320 --> 01:19:47,280
Speaker 3: through a fire and a flood that they'd held onto

1521
01:19:48,040 --> 01:19:50,960
Speaker 3: and they still had them. Yeah, and they had been

1522
01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:53,479
Speaker 3: looking for her for years, but her case was improperly closed,

1523
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:56,720
Speaker 3: which is in the book. Yeah, someone I claimed to

1524
01:19:56,760 --> 01:20:00,160
Speaker 3: beer that's why got them properly closed. It's there's a

1525
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:04,240
Speaker 3: lot of mishandling of that case. But they'd been looking

1526
01:20:04,320 --> 01:20:06,760
Speaker 3: for this whole time. Her kids thought she'd run away

1527
01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:11,120
Speaker 3: just so much but there's a ten thousand dollars reward

1528
01:20:11,160 --> 01:20:14,080
Speaker 3: in the case. I put up half of it. Doctor

1529
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:16,680
Speaker 3: Amy Michael, the forensic anthropologist I work with, put up

1530
01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:20,519
Speaker 3: the other half of it. Amy's real cool. The book

1531
01:20:20,640 --> 01:20:24,840
Speaker 3: is not all death and depressed depression. It's funny too.

1532
01:20:25,520 --> 01:20:28,640
Speaker 1: Well. Based on the cover, it's got some it's got

1533
01:20:28,680 --> 01:20:31,679
Speaker 1: some color to it. Yeah. I love this color scheme

1534
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:32,240
Speaker 1: and the art.

1535
01:20:32,880 --> 01:20:36,320
Speaker 3: The art's beautiful. It's by Peter Strain. I little side

1536
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:38,680
Speaker 3: note just for your listeners. I did let my at

1537
01:20:38,720 --> 01:20:40,640
Speaker 3: the time eight year old pick out the color.

1538
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:43,200
Speaker 1: I made from the cover. Yeah. I think he's He

1539
01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:44,240
Speaker 1: was spot on with that one.

1540
01:20:44,479 --> 01:20:47,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. He said, don't make it. Don't make it depressing

1541
01:20:47,320 --> 01:20:48,639
Speaker 3: and spooky, make it pretty.

1542
01:20:48,760 --> 01:20:51,400
Speaker 1: So I said, well, spooky, mom, good call, always so spooky.

1543
01:20:51,680 --> 01:20:54,080
Speaker 3: He knew what he was getting into with his family.

1544
01:20:54,960 --> 01:20:58,400
Speaker 3: My husband was a Honk Kong metal musician who used

1545
01:20:58,439 --> 01:21:01,160
Speaker 3: to be a bouncer at the Masquerader one time here

1546
01:21:01,200 --> 01:21:05,080
Speaker 3: in Atlanta. And me, well, you know, so he knew

1547
01:21:05,080 --> 01:21:07,040
Speaker 3: he was in for. But that's what the book's about,

1548
01:21:07,800 --> 01:21:10,200
Speaker 3: and it's just a look I wanted. I wanted people

1549
01:21:10,320 --> 01:21:13,240
Speaker 3: who don't know much about forensics to better understand science,

1550
01:21:13,280 --> 01:21:16,840
Speaker 3: but to also understand how many unidentified people there are

1551
01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:19,639
Speaker 3: in the world. Because the thing is people who want

1552
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:22,559
Speaker 3: to help solve cases. These are the cases you can solve,

1553
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:26,759
Speaker 3: and they're not just through DNA skelto re analysis, art research.

1554
01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:30,599
Speaker 3: One of my friend's students just solved a dough case. Wow,

1555
01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:33,880
Speaker 3: that's amazing Southeast Missouri just with the newspaper articles.

1556
01:21:34,080 --> 01:21:34,679
Speaker 1: That's crazy.

1557
01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:38,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, So these are the cases possible podcasters, These are

1558
01:21:38,640 --> 01:21:39,559
Speaker 3: the cases we can solve.

1559
01:21:39,800 --> 01:21:43,280
Speaker 1: Seriously, Like, this is like how you you can utilize

1560
01:21:43,280 --> 01:21:45,720
Speaker 1: a podcast to actually do some real good. Yeah.

1561
01:21:46,400 --> 01:21:48,439
Speaker 3: Like I said, we close one on the fall Line

1562
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:51,360
Speaker 3: not that long ago, just with putting paperwork together. You know,

1563
01:21:51,439 --> 01:21:54,320
Speaker 3: it's not it's not a what's the word I want,

1564
01:21:54,360 --> 01:21:55,880
Speaker 3: glamorous per se, you know what I mean.

1565
01:21:56,439 --> 01:21:59,960
Speaker 1: I think I think it's just like an amazing feat

1566
01:22:00,479 --> 01:22:04,360
Speaker 1: you know, and it's it's it's cool that it's possible

1567
01:22:04,840 --> 01:22:07,400
Speaker 1: and that you know, you're kind of developing your own

1568
01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:10,160
Speaker 1: method of doing it in the process that other people

1569
01:22:10,240 --> 01:22:12,599
Speaker 1: can kind of, you know, learn from too. I think

1570
01:22:12,600 --> 01:22:13,160
Speaker 1: it's amazing.

1571
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:15,439
Speaker 3: There's a John Joe here in Atlanta. I want an

1572
01:22:15,560 --> 01:22:16,400
Speaker 3: ID so bad.

1573
01:22:17,120 --> 01:22:17,679
Speaker 1: Figure it out.

1574
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:19,280
Speaker 3: APD won't give me the file.

1575
01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:20,360
Speaker 1: Why not? I don't know.

1576
01:22:20,520 --> 01:22:21,960
Speaker 3: Maybe you should knock on the door.

1577
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:25,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll try. But he was set on fire

1578
01:22:26,040 --> 01:22:27,800
Speaker 1: that much luck lately with police. But we'll see.

1579
01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:31,280
Speaker 3: He was set on fire for his wallet. What someone

1580
01:22:31,439 --> 01:22:33,280
Speaker 3: stole his wallet and set on fire to steal it

1581
01:22:33,400 --> 01:22:36,679
Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety six. Yeah, and I want that file

1582
01:22:36,760 --> 01:22:38,200
Speaker 3: so bad because I think he can be ided.

1583
01:22:38,240 --> 01:22:40,240
Speaker 1: Why do they want that file? Give it over?

1584
01:22:40,400 --> 01:22:41,240
Speaker 3: No one's working on him.

1585
01:22:41,400 --> 01:22:42,559
Speaker 1: No one is working on that case.

1586
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:42,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1587
01:22:42,880 --> 01:22:43,880
Speaker 1: I bet my life on it.

1588
01:22:44,080 --> 01:22:46,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, but they won't let me have it because they're

1589
01:22:46,720 --> 01:22:50,760
Speaker 3: i think, due to certain city tensions, they're not handing

1590
01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:53,840
Speaker 3: over files, right copsity, Yeah that's what I meant. Yeah, yeah,

1591
01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:54,599
Speaker 3: they're not handing.

1592
01:22:54,479 --> 01:22:56,599
Speaker 1: Over they're being a little guarded.

1593
01:22:56,920 --> 01:22:59,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I would love to work on that Casey.

1594
01:22:59,360 --> 01:23:01,400
Speaker 1: Well, maybe they'll give to us. We'll maybe we'll poke

1595
01:23:01,439 --> 01:23:05,120
Speaker 1: from some other angle reactions. Yeah yeah, well, thank you.

1596
01:23:05,200 --> 01:23:07,680
Speaker 1: It's been so much fun. It has always been a

1597
01:23:07,720 --> 01:23:10,800
Speaker 1: fan of your work and can't wait to listen to

1598
01:23:10,840 --> 01:23:11,559
Speaker 1: the audible person.

1599
01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:13,040
Speaker 3: Yeah that's hey, that's what Brooke did.

1600
01:23:13,240 --> 01:23:16,760
Speaker 1: Hey like that sounds like a bet? Is it you talking? It?

1601
01:23:16,960 --> 01:23:18,040
Speaker 3: Is it's my first audio.

1602
01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:22,439
Speaker 1: Wow, that's pretty cool. Okay, cool, it's not AI. I.

1603
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:26,439
Speaker 3: You know, some people may think that it is sounds

1604
01:23:26,479 --> 01:23:28,479
Speaker 3: so good. Yeah, who's this AI?

1605
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:28,920
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1606
01:23:29,240 --> 01:23:32,760
Speaker 3: You know, but uh yeah, leave me a five star review. Pain,

1607
01:23:33,160 --> 01:23:34,960
Speaker 3: I will we will be friends forever.

1608
01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:37,120
Speaker 1: I will definitely give you five stars.

1609
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:39,640
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, of course, thanks for having me.

1610
01:23:42,200 --> 01:23:44,920
Speaker 4: Talking to Death is a production of Tenderfoot TV and

1611
01:23:45,080 --> 01:23:49,840
Speaker 4: iHeart podcast created and hosted by Payne Lindsay. For Tenderfoot TV,

1612
01:23:50,120 --> 01:23:54,320
Speaker 4: executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright. Co executive

1613
01:23:54,360 --> 01:23:58,680
Speaker 4: producer is Mike Rooney. For iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are

1614
01:23:58,720 --> 01:24:02,519
Speaker 4: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams. With original music by Makeup

1615
01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:06,679
Speaker 4: and Vanity Set. Additional production by Mike Rooney, Dylan Harrington,

1616
01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:11,479
Speaker 4: Sean Nerney, Dayton Cole, and Gustav Wild for Cohedo. Production

1617
01:24:11,640 --> 01:24:15,880
Speaker 4: support by Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young. Mixing

1618
01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:19,599
Speaker 4: and mastering by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole. Our cover

1619
01:24:19,760 --> 01:24:23,200
Speaker 4: art was created by Rob Sheridan. Check out our website

1620
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:25,519
Speaker 4: Talking to Death podcast dot com.

1621
01:24:31,000 --> 01:24:33,280
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of Talking to Death.

1622
01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:37,120
Speaker 1: This series is released weekly absolutely free, but if you

1623
01:24:37,160 --> 01:24:40,679
Speaker 1: want ad free listening and exclusive bonuses, you can subscribe

1624
01:24:40,680 --> 01:24:44,840
Speaker 1: to tenderfoot Plus on Apple Podcasts or go to tenderfootplus

1625
01:24:45,040 --> 01:24:45,519
Speaker 1: dot com