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Speaker 1: It was in nineteen seventy three. I was eight years

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Speaker 1: old when I sat in a dark movie theater with

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Speaker 1: my good friend and his mama, who had taken us

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Speaker 1: to the movies because she knew I loved police work

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Speaker 1: and thought, oh, this will be a fun movie to

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Speaker 1: take the children to. I had only seen movies like

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Speaker 1: one hundred and one Dalmatians, The Jungle Book, or Swiss

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Speaker 1: Family Robinson, So when Joe Don Baker came on that

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Speaker 1: screen as walking Doll, I was teleported to another place.

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Speaker 1: I had never seen such action Sodom and Gomora in

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Speaker 1: my life, and I loved every minute of it. This

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Speaker 1: movie had hookers, hell billy gangsters, killers. I mean, there

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Speaker 1: was so much coming at me. People getting stabbed, people

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Speaker 1: getting ambushed, moonshiners back in the woods with steals. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just couldn't even hardly comprehend everything that I was seeing,

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Speaker 1: but I soaked it up. I memorized lines in that movie.

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Speaker 1: This movie also filled in some gaps I didn't know

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Speaker 1: until this movie there was such a thing called a madam.

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Speaker 1: So now I learned that these hookers they had a

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Speaker 1: safe place to come and have their dates, so to speak.

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Speaker 1: And this lady provided a place in protection, and she

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Speaker 1: got to cut then bootleggers. I didn't know how things

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Speaker 1: got from the steal in the woods out into the

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Speaker 1: public well. I learned about bootlegger. I learned that criminals

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Speaker 1: didn't drink at a bar or a tavern. They drank

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Speaker 1: at a roadhouse. And then there was the ambush where

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Speaker 1: the sheriff and his wife were going down the road

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Speaker 1: and some people pulled up beside him and opened fire,

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Speaker 1: killing his wife Pauline, and leaving him for dead. But

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Speaker 1: he survived. But he goes back and he gets him

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Speaker 1: a four foot long stick and tries to clean that

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Speaker 1: town up, basically virtually by himself. Now, want y'all to

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Speaker 1: imagine me at school the next day, I held court.

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you, I quoted Walkin Tall. I quoted Sheriff Pusser.

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Speaker 1: I told everybody this crowd was around me. Told him

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Speaker 1: all about Madams, the Dixie Mafia, everything I could think

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Speaker 1: about to tell him. I told one of my favorite

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Speaker 1: quotes from the movie I told on the pee Field

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Speaker 1: when the madam asked the sheriff tried to come into

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Speaker 1: her place of business, you got a warrant, Sheriff Pusser says, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I keep it in my boot, and then of course

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Speaker 1: I had to mimic him kicking the door completely down.

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Speaker 1: There were some awful bad people along the Tennessee Mississippi

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Speaker 1: line in the nineteen sixties. The Dixie Mafia ran their game,

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Speaker 1: lots of notorious votes. Sheriff Fever Pusser became famous for

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Speaker 1: his style of law and order with that big stick.

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Speaker 1: Sheriff Pusser stood about six foot six. He was the

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Speaker 1: chief of police in Adamsville, Tennessee, from nineteen sixty two

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Speaker 1: to nineteen sixty four. Then he was elected sheriff in

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Speaker 1: McNairy County, Tennessee, becoming the youngest sheriff in Tennessee history.

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Speaker 1: And he went after the Dixie Mafia and the State

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Speaker 1: Line mob from day one. He was at the Shamrock

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Speaker 1: Motel on February the first, nineteen sixty six, investigating a robbery.

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Speaker 1: When Louise Hathcock attempted to kill him, she had to

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Speaker 1: concealed thirty eight. The Pusser returned fire, killing her. January second,

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven, Husser was shot three times by unidentified gunmen.

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Speaker 1: Then on August twelfth, nineteen sixty seven, Pusser and his wife,

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Speaker 1: Pauline were ambushed. Pusser was shot in the face and

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Speaker 1: Pauline was killed. Sheriff Pusser named Curtsey Nicks as the

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Speaker 1: gun for hire, but no one was ever charged with

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Speaker 1: Pauline's murder and the aggravated assault against the sheriff. Now,

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Speaker 1: tonight we're going to talk about the ambush. We're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about some of the evidence that may or

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Speaker 1: may not exist. We're going to talk about some of

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Speaker 1: the folks that may or may not have been suspects

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Speaker 1: at the time. And we are so fortunate to have

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Speaker 1: with us somebody that has researched this case, somebody that

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Speaker 1: knows this case backwards and forwards, understands the history of

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Speaker 1: Sheriff Pusser, and he's written a book on the subject.

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Speaker 1: But more than someone who's written a book, our guest

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Speaker 1: tonight gave information to the TBI, the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation,

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Speaker 1: that is prompted the reason we're talking tonight. The ambush

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Speaker 1: where Pauline Pusser was murdered is cold. Nobody was ever arrested,

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Speaker 1: nobody was ever brought to trial. Well, some information has

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Speaker 1: come forward information solid enough the TBI has taken some action.

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Speaker 1: So I want to welcome to Zonne seven Mike Elam,

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Speaker 1: who has a background in law enforcement, a background in

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Speaker 1: the private sector, and is an author and researcher and

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Speaker 1: historian when it comes to Sheriff Bufford Pusser.

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Speaker 2: Cheryl, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Well, I got to tell you, I've already talked to

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Speaker 1: you a little bit, and talked to you has only

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Speaker 1: peaked my interest even more to what is going on

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Speaker 1: own with the TBI and what their foundation is on

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Speaker 1: this case, the new evidence and where this may lead.

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Speaker 1: Because again, for somebody that is known about Sheriff Pussers

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Speaker 1: as I was eight years old, I understood and always

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Speaker 1: believed that the Dixie Mafield was involved, and now that

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Speaker 1: may not be the case. So I'm just so thankful

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Speaker 1: that you are here to share with us some of

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Speaker 1: the things that you have found and where you see

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Speaker 1: this case right now with TBI.

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Speaker 2: First, let me say that you know, I've basically gathered

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Speaker 2: a lot of information and I've kind of been a

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Speaker 2: clearing house of information. It's one of those things where

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Speaker 2: recently they were given information about a firearm that possibly

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Speaker 2: could have been used. That is what prompted the current

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Speaker 2: happenings with the excavation of Pauline's body. And I think

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Speaker 2: that well on the road, you know, establishing if exactly

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Speaker 2: where or what happened as best we can with so

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Speaker 2: many people gone at this point.

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Speaker 1: Now you grew up, you got into law enforcement. Were

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Speaker 1: you a fan of Sheriff Puessers? Did you know about him?

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Speaker 2: I was a fan, absolutely a fan. I was attending

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Speaker 2: the University of Arkansas and I was kind of prompted

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Speaker 2: to get into law enforcement by some events that happened there.

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Speaker 2: And like most people, I started out as a dispatcher

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Speaker 2: and a jailor, and you know, eventually kind of worked

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Speaker 2: my way up. I worked for two different sheriffs, and

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Speaker 2: when I was there with Benton County here in Arkansas,

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Speaker 2: I was a huge fan of Youpord Pesser and history.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've worked for two sheriffs as well. And

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Speaker 1: when you go from working for a sheriff to a

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Speaker 1: police department, it's a different world. The sheriff has got

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Speaker 1: so much and you can learn so much more if

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Speaker 1: you're a jailer and you know who is absolutely in

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Speaker 1: your county. To me there's nothing better than being in

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Speaker 1: that jail and seeing who's coming through there, why they're

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Speaker 1: coming through there, because it'll give you rock solid information

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Speaker 1: about what's truly going on in your caump.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, unlike especially back in the sixties, they didn't

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Speaker 2: have the protocols we have today. But you know, the

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Speaker 2: sheriff was like king of the county. He had a

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Speaker 2: lot of responsibility, but he also had a great deal

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Speaker 2: of authority.

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Speaker 1: So you're at the sheriff's department and then you move

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Speaker 1: into the private sector, so you've got kind of a

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Speaker 1: double way of looking at something. You could look at

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Speaker 1: it as a lawman, but you could also look at

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Speaker 1: it as a businessman slash private citizen.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, And you know, having worked in both, it

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Speaker 2: gave me a different perspective than what most people have,

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Speaker 2: I guess. I mean, I saw everything from the law

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Speaker 2: enforcement side, and you know, you learned things in just

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Speaker 2: about every profession that you're in. But there were so

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Speaker 2: many similarities with what I did at the sheriff's office

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Speaker 2: and what I did in the private sector because I

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Speaker 2: was director of lost prevention for a large retail company,

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Speaker 2: and of course you're always investigating employee thefts, all kinds

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Speaker 2: of big shoplifting, rings, insurance fraud, product shrinkage, I mean,

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Speaker 2: lots of theft, and everything goes on in a retail facility.

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Speaker 2: So that gave me an insight as well.

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Speaker 1: When you started to look into this case, what is

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Speaker 1: the first thing you found that made you go, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute.

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Speaker 2: Probably two things that hit almost at the same time.

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Speaker 2: One where I began to really doubt the Pusser legend

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Speaker 2: was I found or was shared with Louise Hathcock's autopsy report. Now,

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Speaker 2: she was a club owner, a bar owner there at

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Speaker 2: the state line. She had a restaurant that sat on

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Speaker 2: the Mississippi side of the line, and about fifty feet

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Speaker 2: away on the north side of the line in Tennessee,

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Speaker 2: she had a motel. And of course she was one

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Speaker 2: of the people that was kind of featured in the movie.

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Speaker 2: Her name there was Calie Hacker, and she was shot

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Speaker 2: and killed by Buford. And when I saw that autopsy report,

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Speaker 2: it showed some things that were just absolutely mind boggling

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Speaker 2: to me as how that they could have made the

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Speaker 2: movie the way that they did. And that was the

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Speaker 2: first thing that hit me. The second thing that hit

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Speaker 2: me that I got copies of it, almost the identical

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Speaker 2: time were photos of Bufford's Plymouth Fury that he and

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Speaker 2: Pauline were in when they were allegedly ambushed.

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Speaker 1: What stuck out the most about the car.

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Speaker 2: For me, it was the blood spatter inside and out.

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Speaker 2: Gaufford's story was that they never exited the vehicle. He

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Speaker 2: said that they had been attacked at a little bridge,

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Speaker 2: A couple of shots were fired, Pauline was hit. She

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Speaker 2: allegedly kind of leaned over on him, was gasping for air,

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Speaker 2: you know, for breath. Beaufort said he drove two miles

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Speaker 2: on down the road, it was about two point one miles,

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Speaker 2: stopped the car, started to get out to go around

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Speaker 2: and check on Pauline, and you know, he said he

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Speaker 2: had one foot on the ground and one foot still

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Speaker 2: in the car when they pulled up alongside of him

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Speaker 2: and started to fire again. But the problem I had

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Speaker 2: was that, you know, by that time he was back

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Speaker 2: in the car, but there was blood spatter all over

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Speaker 2: the outside of the vehicle, on the hood, the front bumper,

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Speaker 2: the outside of the windshield, and that did not go

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Speaker 2: with his story. And of course, you know, usually when

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Speaker 2: there is blood spatter, you look for how it tails,

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Speaker 2: and the tail points the direction that the projectile was

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Speaker 2: handling or heading, And it seems to me that somebody

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Speaker 2: was shot standing in front of the car.

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Speaker 1: The story that I always knew was he was driving

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Speaker 1: down New Hoe Road when they pulled alongside of him.

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Speaker 1: He's still moving when they shoot, and then there's the

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Speaker 1: secondary place just as you described. So I'm kind of

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Speaker 1: baffled when you talk about blood splatter on the hood

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Speaker 1: of the car too.

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Speaker 2: It makes entirely no sense. It doesn't compared to the

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Speaker 2: story that he would tell people. You know, he said

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Speaker 2: the first shots were fired there at the bridge and

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Speaker 2: the cars were moving. You know. When I got into

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Speaker 2: this and I started looking at everything, the problem that

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Speaker 2: I had was that they theorized that there was a

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Speaker 2: car park behind that church that's on New Hope Road,

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Speaker 2: and that they chased him down and fired the first

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Speaker 2: two shots at that bridge. The bridge is only seven

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Speaker 2: tenths of a mile from the church, and some friends

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Speaker 2: and I tried to reconstruct that and we couldn't make

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Speaker 2: it work because, for instance, I'd set my cruise control

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Speaker 2: on about forty five miles an hour when I passed

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Speaker 2: the church, and they were in a Cadillac gave chase

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Speaker 2: and by the time I reached the bridge, they were

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Speaker 2: still two hundred to two hundred and fifty yards behind me.

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Speaker 2: They hadn't caught me. Cameraman that was in the car

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Speaker 2: said that they reached speeds over ninety miles an hour

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Speaker 2: trying to catch me, and I thought that at one

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Speaker 2: point they were going to leave the road, but at

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Speaker 2: any rate. From there, he said, he hit the gas.

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Speaker 2: He thought he had lost him, and that's the reason

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Speaker 2: why I stopped two miles later at an intersection two

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Speaker 2: county road intersections where Yancy Davis Road intersected with New Hope.

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Speaker 2: He stopped just ten yards shy of that intersection, and

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Speaker 2: that's where he said he started to get out of

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Speaker 2: the car. They pulled up alongside of him. A rifle

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Speaker 2: came back out the window. He said. He grabbed the

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Speaker 2: barrel of the rifle, and at that point there was

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Speaker 2: anywhere from fourteen to seventeen shots that could have been fired.

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Speaker 2: When I got to looking into that, the next problem

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Speaker 2: I had was where they found the shellcasings.

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Speaker 1: What was up with the showcases?

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Speaker 2: You know, if you've got two cars that are close

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Speaker 2: enough together that and they're stopped and the gun comes

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Speaker 2: out the window and Beuford can reach and grab it.

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Speaker 2: They've got to be in close proximity. Well, when you

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Speaker 2: fire a a rifle or a car being in this case,

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Speaker 2: you know the shell casings are going to be ejected.

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Speaker 2: You would expect, or I did, to think that you

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Speaker 2: would have found them in between the two vehicles, some

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Speaker 2: possibly being ejected inside the Cadillac, and some the couple

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Speaker 2: could have possibly been ejected over there in the into

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Speaker 2: Buford's car after the windows shot out. However, they found

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Speaker 2: the majority of the shellcasings on the opposite side of

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Speaker 2: the ambush vehicle, on the shoulder of the road, And

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Speaker 2: it's kind of like, how on earth did that happen?

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Speaker 2: How did those shellcasings get all the way on the

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Speaker 2: opposite side of where everything was happening. And that gave

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Speaker 2: me the idea that somebody was probably on foot shooting.

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Speaker 1: So even if you have Car A and Car B

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Speaker 1: and they're both face of the same direction and Car

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Speaker 1: A speeds off, the shell casings, if some of them

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Speaker 1: are under the tire, could have gotten thrown backwards or

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Speaker 1: a little to the side, but there's no way to

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Speaker 1: get on the opposite side of.

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Speaker 2: Car B correct. I just couldn't make it work anyway.

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Speaker 2: I looked at it, and you know, witnesses said that

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Speaker 2: they were the shellcasings were all in such close proximity

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Speaker 2: to each other, and that's just something you rarely see

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Speaker 2: as a weapon ejects the shellcasings from the port. You know,

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Speaker 2: they're just kind of scattered generally, So why are they

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Speaker 2: all in certain places? From there? Just brought on more questions,

255
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Speaker 2: you know, I got to thinking about the time and

256
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Speaker 2: motion between the sites. Buford was hitting the chin. Most

257
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Speaker 2: people the movie showed it as being showed it as

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Speaker 2: being struck in the jaw and having his jaw blown

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Speaker 2: away and having to wear casts. That didn't happen. You know,

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Speaker 2: that brown that he took was to the chin.

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Speaker 1: So your research, when you went back and talked to

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Speaker 1: folks and read articles about that August twelfth, nineteen sixty

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Speaker 1: seven night or an early morning four o'clock in the morning,

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Speaker 1: did you find that Pauline normally would go with him

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Speaker 1: or was this unusual for her to have been in

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Speaker 1: the car that time of day.

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Speaker 2: Well, of course, some of Buford's closest friend and such

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Speaker 2: would come out with this story that she often went

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Speaker 2: with him on calls down especially toward the state line,

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Speaker 2: because she didn't want Beefford to be down there by himself. However,

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Speaker 2: you know, his own chief deputy contradicted that, saying that

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Speaker 2: was only twice that he could remember that Buford would

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Speaker 2: go on calls as such, and that both times that

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Speaker 2: he was not there with Buford were two occasions where

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Speaker 2: Bufford got shot. But they said that Pauline did not

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Speaker 2: go on calls with Beauford. And as a former officer yourself,

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Speaker 2: you know that it's highly unusual that you would take

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Speaker 2: a spouse on any type of disturbance call, well.

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Speaker 1: Especially at four o'clock in the morning, when you've got

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Speaker 1: two children at home.

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Speaker 2: Well, actually there were three kids at home. Pauline's oldest daughter, Diane,

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Speaker 2: had been staying in Memphis, and Pauline had called her

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Speaker 2: and told her that she needed to come home because

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Speaker 2: she was having a lot of problems with Buford. So

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Speaker 2: Diane was there as well as Mike and Dewana.

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Speaker 1: Now Sheriff Pusser named somebody the ambush leader part of

287
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Speaker 1: it did the shooting. I mean, he flat out said

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Speaker 1: Curtsey Nicks. Did it, but was never able to bring

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Speaker 1: into justice. Has your research brought his name up at all.

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Speaker 2: Well, certainly that's somebody that you would look at since

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Speaker 2: he made the statement, but you've never really found a

292
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Speaker 2: solid connection that placed him there or anywhere in the

293
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Speaker 2: area at that time. Nicks later went to prison for

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Speaker 2: the murder of grocer in New Orleans, Frank Corso, and

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Speaker 2: then Paula was in prison. You know, he contracted the

296
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Speaker 2: murders of Judge Sherry and his wife in Biloxi. So

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Speaker 2: with Youuford going to prison for these murders, what better

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Speaker 2: prison cred can you have than to say, hey, I

299
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Speaker 2: was responsible for the ambush in which Buford was shot

300
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Speaker 2: and Pauline was killed. I mean other inmates you know

301
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Speaker 2: kind of idolized a guy like that quite often.

302
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Speaker 1: Well, especially after the movie, for sure, everybody knew who

303
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Speaker 1: he was.

304
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Speaker 2: Right, so that came to Kirksey's benefit that he could

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Speaker 2: claim that he was involved and yet not really be

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Speaker 2: prosecuted for it.

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Speaker 1: Well, the other thing about Curtsey Nates and the Dixie Mafia.

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Speaker 1: After the murders of Judge Sherry and his wife, Margaret,

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Speaker 1: we knew absolutely he'd kill a woman I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: some folks in the Italian mafia that wouldn't do that,

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Speaker 1: or other criminals that may leave your wife alone. But

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Speaker 1: in this situation, we know he would do that.

313
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Speaker 2: Nix was a pretty ruthless guy. But you know, you

314
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Speaker 2: also have to ask yourself what was his connection to

315
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Speaker 2: the state line or the state liners that he would

316
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Speaker 2: come down and do that for anyone. Now, something that

317
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Speaker 2: people don't understand is that when Sheriff Pusser took office

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Speaker 2: in September of nineteen sixty four, all of this would

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Speaker 2: be over at the state line. It was gone shortly

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Speaker 2: after Louise was killed on February first of nineteen sixty six.

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Speaker 2: So then eighteen months later here you have the ambush.

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Speaker 2: You know, you have to wonder why anyone would go

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Speaker 2: after Beauford because the state line pretty much closed down

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Speaker 2: with the death of Lui's Hathcock on February first, nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty six, So whyse and who is waiting for eighteen

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Speaker 2: months to plan the ambush? That didn't make sense.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it just seems like Cheff Pusser over

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Speaker 1: and over and over was involved in some type of

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Speaker 1: gunfight because it wasn't over even after the ambush, his

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Speaker 1: wife has been murdered in front of him. And then

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Speaker 1: on December twenty fifth, nineteen sixty eight, what happens.

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Speaker 2: Gefford was supposed to be inside the sheriff's office and

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Speaker 2: received a call that a individual named Russ Hamilton, who

334
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Speaker 2: was a known killer, and that is very true, was

335
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Speaker 2: intoxicated threatening to kill this neighbors all this and that.

336
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Speaker 2: So allegedly people called the police department there in Selmer,

337
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Speaker 2: and the legend goes that they were so afraid of

338
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Speaker 2: Russ Hamilton that they refused to go out on the call.

339
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Speaker 2: So Beauford went, walked up, knocked on the door, Hamilton

340
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Speaker 2: said come in. As soon as Beauford stepped in, well,

341
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Speaker 2: Hamilton started shooting at him with a little handgun, and

342
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Speaker 2: allegedly Bufford was wounded, had the handle blown off of

343
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Speaker 2: his gun and one round hit the door facing and

344
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Speaker 2: Beaufort allegedly dropped to his knee, fired one shot and

345
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Speaker 2: got Hamilton almost directly between the eyes. You know, it's

346
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Speaker 2: one of those things where there's lots of questions even

347
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Speaker 2: in that shooting.

348
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Speaker 1: His style of sheriff and you know, with the big stick,

349
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Speaker 1: with all the guns swinging with the bust and his

350
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Speaker 1: he even told his own deputies. But two rules we

351
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,439
Speaker 1: dish out just as evenly. And if anybody takes a bribe,

352
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Speaker 1: I'll take your head off myself. I mean, that's who

353
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Speaker 1: he was reported to be.

354
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Speaker 2: Yeah, but in reality, he never carried a stick. That

355
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Speaker 2: is a huge misconception. And of course in the movie,

356
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Speaker 2: those were just scripted lines from Hollywood.

357
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Speaker 1: Now, Mike, the eight year old me, you're just breaking

358
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Speaker 1: my heart because again, you know, you grow up and

359
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: you want these things to be true. You want this

360
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 1: hero to be true, this guy that can come into

361
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Speaker 1: this town with all of this corruption and basically straighten

362
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Speaker 1: it out single handedly. But you're doing something and you're

363
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: taking on something that I think is brave. And when

364
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Speaker 1: you are trying to say, Pauline deserves justice and we're

365
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Speaker 1: going to look at this thing objectively, and we're going

366
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Speaker 1: to do the research, and we're going to realize, hey,

367
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 1: we she never had an autopsy. That right there should

368
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: blow your mind. That the sit and sheriff is ambushed

369
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Speaker 1: and his wife is murdered and he doesn't do every

370
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Speaker 1: single investigative tool he can do to avenge her.

371
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Speaker 2: I as the state medical examiner at that time. I

372
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Speaker 2: got ahold of him years later and I asked him

373
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Speaker 2: why that one was never done, and he said, the

374
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Speaker 2: protocol back in the sixties was that the local medical

375
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 2: examiner and the district attorney had to concur on the

376
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 2: need for one, and he said clearly either one or

377
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 2: both of them did not want an autopsy done on Pauline.

378
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: Mike, tell us where we are now and what TBI

379
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: has recently just done.

380
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 2: Well. To be honest, I don't know what the tbi's doing.

381
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 2: All I can tell you is that I have a

382
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 2: Facebook page and for the past seven years I've used

383
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 2: that kind of as a fishing hole to we talk

384
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Speaker 2: about Beauford, Pusser, the state Line, everyone that was involved.

385
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 2: And it's always been my hope that I would get

386
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 2: clues to this story. And sure enough I did, and

387
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 2: of course, like I say, several of them have come through,

388
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: the biggest one probably being the individual with the gun.

389
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 2: I'd posted about all this on my Facebook page and

390
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 2: you know, so, yeah, I would like to think that

391
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 2: I've contributed a lot to what is happening, but I

392
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 2: don't know. They asked me a lot of questions. I

393
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 2: give them whatever I can to help out in the investigation.

394
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: They share nothing with me. It's against their protocols, and

395
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 2: I understand that there's a state law in place where

396
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 2: the TBI just does not share information from their files.

397
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 2: So all I've got are my own insights about what

398
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,719
Speaker 2: they're doing based upon my experience.

399
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: Well, they did something huge. They exhumed Pauline Pusser's body.

400
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 2: Yes, and I would assume that there's something that I

401
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: passed along, and I know along the way that they

402
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: have probably talked to individuals and possibly learned even more

403
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 2: than what I passed on. But at some point, I

404
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 2: don't know if it was the gun that was located.

405
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was someone that they talked

406
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 2: to in reference to all this, but there's something that

407
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: has triggered them to go to the extent, you know,

408
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 2: exhuming her body. That's just rare, especially in a case

409
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 2: that's old. But you know, they're trying to do the

410
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 2: right thing. You never let a case die. And I've

411
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,479
Speaker 2: got hand it to the TBI. They have stepped up.

412
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 2: They're going after this. You know, they understand I've always

413
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 2: called this justice for Pauline, and that's exactly what they're

414
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 2: doing it, maybe six years old, but you know they're

415
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 2: willing to do what it takes to close the case.

416
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: There's going to be folks out there that say, well,

417
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: they did this without the family knowledge, They're just on

418
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: a fishing expedition, this is a witch hunt. Whatever. But

419
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 1: the bottom line for me is, for over fifty years,

420
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:30,719
Speaker 1: she has had no justice. Nobody has been brought to trial,

421
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: nobody has legitimately been named. So if they have gone

422
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: to the links to exule her body, that ain't a

423
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: ficient expedition, that ain't a witch hunt. That's based on

424
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: some bona fide information.

425
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 2: I would think so. And I would say also that

426
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 2: years ago I interviewed some of Pauline's siblings and at

427
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 2: that time, of course, this was before the internet was

428
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,239
Speaker 2: really a big thing where you could find a lot

429
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 2: of information. There's a lot of things that have occurred

430
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 2: early on in this story, but her siblings never knew

431
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 2: that there was any question that Rufford might have been

432
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 2: involved in Pauline's death. And I think that they there

433
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 2: apparently is a family member that or more that have

434
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 2: agreed to have Pauline's body exhumed, And I would like

435
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 2: to think that when you know, I was telling the

436
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 2: family about what I was finding, and they were so shocked.

437
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: I'm sure that they've wondered ever since how Pauline really died.

438
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: So, Mike, let me ask you this. When you've got

439
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: an agency like TBI, a solid investigative body, one of

440
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: the best there is. They got the body farm in Knoxville,

441
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: they educate all law enforcement. What do you think they're

442
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: looking for right now?

443
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 2: Out Well, of course, all I can give is my

444
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 2: personal opinion, but I would think they're going to be

445
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: looking at several things, how many times she was shot,

446
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 2: what the trajectory of the projectiles were. They're going to

447
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 2: be looking at entrance wounds, exit wounds. They're going to

448
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 2: be looking for any other possible injuries that have never

449
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: been mentioned to anybody. There may be some, there may

450
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 2: not be. But everything in an autopsy tells you a story,

451
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: and they're looking for the entire story. I would assume.

452
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: I don't think there's any question that you are absolutely

453
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: right about that. I think for me, the entry and

454
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: exit those wounds are so critical to match with the

455
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: story that was told, and the trajectory will bring it home.

456
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 2: I believe. So, I mean it only makes sense that

457
00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 2: you would compare the statements that made and tried to

458
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 2: determine if the trajectories agree with the story. But again,

459
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 2: you know, the night that all this happened, she had

460
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 2: been at home, she had Pauline. Most people don't know

461
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 2: that Pauline and Vieufort had separated at one point, and

462
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 2: that the oldest daughter, Diane, was actually away from home,

463
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 2: staying in Memphis, and that Pauline had told her to

464
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: come home, that she and Viefort were having problems. And

465
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: I'm guessing, but I'm saying that Pauline was indeed going

466
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 2: to leave Vieuford, and that she was gathering all her

467
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 2: kids under one roof so that she could leave Adamsville

468
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: and take the kids with her. Levon Plunk when I

469
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 2: interviewed her, Leavonn was Pauline's best friend. She took Pauline

470
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 2: home that night. She was afraid of Youd. She after

471
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: Pauline invited her to come in, she refused because she

472
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 2: was scared of Youford. She told him, Pauline, I'll park

473
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: the car down the street. You get ready to leave,

474
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: you flash your porch, laud On, I'll come down there

475
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 2: pick you and the kids up and we'll be gone. Allegedly,

476
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,479
Speaker 2: she was going to take them to the airport so

477
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 2: that they could return to HAYSI. Virginia Bufford came home

478
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 2: about that time. Levaughn saw him pass He walked in

479
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 2: the car and she told me, said, I heard one

480
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 2: gun shot and I panicked. I left. I didn't know

481
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 2: what to do. Said, I couldn't call the Sheriff's office

482
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 2: because Carl Pusser Peubt's dad was the dispatcher, and said

483
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 2: she couldn't call her husband because he was one of

484
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 2: Buford's deputies and he would try to cover from Beauford.

485
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 2: And she said, you know, I had a family to raise.

486
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 2: I you know, didn't know what to do, and I

487
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 2: didn't know who I could trust, so I did nothing

488
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 2: immediately and said then a short time later her husband

489
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 2: called her and said, well, Pauline was killing the ambush

490
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 2: meant for Beauford. And ironically, what gets me is that Diane,

491
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:20,239
Speaker 2: the Gufford's stepdaughter, would also tell her friends that she

492
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 2: heard a disturbance out in the living room. She never

493
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 2: did identify that I know of exactly what the disturbance

494
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 2: was that woke her, but said, it wasn't long before

495
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 2: she heard the front door open. She looked out a

496
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 2: window and saw Befford car carrying half dragging Pauline toward

497
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 2: a car. He placed her in the front seat and said,

498
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 2: then he turned around and started walking back toward the house.

499
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: And Diane would tell her friends that she thought that

500
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 2: Efford might be coming back to the house to get

501
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 2: rid of both her and Mike, and said, he got

502
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 2: about half there. He reached down, picked up Pauline's shoes,

503
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 2: placed them in the front floorboard of the car. And

504
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 2: you know, you look at the photo there they are

505
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 2: so neatly placed, just like you pick a pair of

506
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 2: shoes up with one hand. To me, it was totally

507
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: unlike a photo that you would see of where a

508
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 2: lady kicked her shoes off for a drive. They're not

509
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 2: usually placed so neatly in one spot and at the

510
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 2: proper angle for somebody to have just set the shoes

511
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 2: in there. There's all kinds of little clues when you

512
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 2: look at these things.

513
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: Tell everybody about your book, be Youford Pusser. The other

514
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,719
Speaker 1: story is the legend real? How did this come about?

515
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 2: Actually? I'd been working on this little project of trying

516
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 2: to piece together evidence. And on my Facebook page, you

517
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 2: know how you get into questions and answers and so

518
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 2: on and so forth, and the story on the page

519
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 2: age had become a little disjointed, it, you know, because

520
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 2: one night we might be talking about something that happened

521
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 2: at a state Line club. The next thing, you know,

522
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 2: we might be talking about something that happened elsewhere in

523
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 2: the county. Well, in September of twenty nineteen, I found

524
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 2: out that I had colon cancer. So I was going

525
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,720
Speaker 2: through chemo and radiation, had to have surgery, which occurred

526
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 2: on January fifteenth of twenty twenty, and I got out

527
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 2: of the hospital only to have to go back for

528
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 2: an infection. So I was, you know, out of the

529
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 2: away from everything for about a month. And that was

530
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 2: about the time COVID hit, and you know, I was

531
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,720
Speaker 2: still having to go through more radiation and more chemo,

532
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 2: and of course I was bored out of my head,

533
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 2: you know, and on my folks on Facebook saying you

534
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 2: ought to take this time to write the book, you know,

535
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 2: because they had always asked me to write the book.

536
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,399
Speaker 2: So you know, I did, and it was therapy for

537
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 2: me to put all this down and I have to

538
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 2: tell you that when I wrote it, I made a

539
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 2: lot of spelling and grammar errors because they couldn't find

540
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 2: anybody right then because of COVID that could really do

541
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 2: a job of editing like we needed to. I had

542
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 2: a good friend that I was doing her best to

543
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 2: edit it, but every time she'd send me something back,

544
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 2: I would make changes. Yet, but the facts are straight,

545
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 2: and it was mental therapy for me to write the

546
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 2: book and to get the word out about just how

547
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 2: Pauline had no justice. And the other odd part of

548
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: it is Beuford was my hero, and I realized while

549
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 2: I was doing this, I was tearing down the legend

550
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 2: of somebody that I'd always admired. It was kind of

551
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 2: a tough time in a lot of ways.

552
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 1: Mike, I'm kind of torn like you are. I've never

553
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: had anything but respect for Sheriff Pusser and the legend

554
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: that I knew and accepted as truth, So I can

555
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 1: imagine that you are torn. But I think it's also

556
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: important for us to hear from you, and you just

557
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: tell us how you're leading your investigation.

558
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 2: Let me say that I do know that there's a

559
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 2: lot of people that don't agree with what I've done.

560
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 2: A lot of people that just absolutely hate the very

561
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 2: ground I walk on because I am tearing down legend.

562
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 2: But to me, Pauline deserves justice. It's that important that

563
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 2: each of us should have that opportunity to have somebody

564
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 2: review everything and the things come out the way that

565
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 2: they should. I tend to look at the evidence rather

566
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 2: than go along with the legend because the two absolutely

567
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 2: do not agree. And I would like to say apparently

568
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 2: the TBI feels the same way, because this is a

569
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 2: case that I imagine that they could have avoided. There

570
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 2: was plenty of reason for to avoid it. It was

571
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 2: an old case. Nothing's going to change except justice for

572
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 2: Pauline would take place. But they didn't ignore it. They

573
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 2: did what they are supposed to do. They went with

574
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 2: their duty. They looked into all this. I wish I

575
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 2: knew more about what was going on, but I don't.

576
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 2: I don't have any more end than anybody else. I

577
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 2: do have the ability to look at what they've asked for,

578
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: what that they have tried to analyze. I do know

579
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 2: of a lot of the people they talked to because

580
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 2: and interviewed, because a lot of them came to me

581
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 2: saying Hey, I've got this little piece of information, but

582
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 2: I feel like it could be important, so I passed

583
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 2: everything along that I could verify that might be important.

584
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:12,320
Speaker 2: Apparently from that it's helped, at the very least build

585
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 2: a case up. And I think what the TBI is

586
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: doing is absolutely commendable. The state ought to be proud

587
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 2: of the agency.

588
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: I can't agree more. Hauline Pusser deserves it. I have

589
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: a mantra every test, on every case, every time, and

590
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: I have.

591
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 2: A mantra the truth has no agenda.

592
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 1: I cannot thank you enough for being with us. I

593
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 1: appreciate it, and I will be on pens and needles

594
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 1: until we hear something definitive from the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation.

595
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 2: And I appreciate you having me here to explain what

596
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 2: I've done and why I've done it, and you know

597
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 2: that I hope it leads to a proper conclusion. And

598
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 2: like you, I'm sitting on pens and needles. I want

599
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: to know what's going on.

600
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I

601
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: always do with a quote. It's just too bad that

602
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: it takes such a tragic event to make folks willing

603
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: to take a stamp Sheriff Viavert Husser, July fourteenth, nineteen

604
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 1: seventy four. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven