Speaker 1: Hey, Nerd fam, I hope you're still doing healthy and well.
Speaker 1: We are really excited to kick off mental health. May.
Speaker 1: We have a lot of cool interviews and topics and
Speaker 1: brain science that we are covering. I just wanted to
Speaker 1: say that there is a slight trigger warning. You know.
Speaker 1: We talked about some really difficult UH situations and things
Speaker 1: in this UH and and therapy and trauma in this episode.
Speaker 1: So if you are in a difficult place right now,
Speaker 1: you might want to hold off on this episode or
Speaker 1: wait until you're feeling a little bit better. And here's
Speaker 1: our episode. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of
Speaker 1: NERD Difficent. I am one half of your host if
Speaker 1: you wad way, and sitting across from me digitally is
Speaker 1: Danny Fernandez. And I'm so excited for this month, IFFI,
Speaker 1: I'm so excited that we're doing this. We this is
Speaker 1: our first episode of men Total Health. May. I think
Speaker 1: it's always relevant, but incredibly relevant right now. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think now more than ever it's a good time to
Speaker 1: have that discussion. You know, you can see a lot
Speaker 1: of folks I don't know, it's just being alone with
Speaker 1: your thoughts for all all this time. You know, it
Speaker 1: has different effects on everyone. And I think it's also
Speaker 1: good to talk about mental health so people know it's
Speaker 1: okay to seek help and to talk about it and
Speaker 1: it's not something that a little sleep or what have
Speaker 1: you as gonna deal with. Yeah, and also, you know,
Speaker 1: because this is a nerd based podcast, there's so much,
Speaker 1: so much cool science behind treatment. UM. I've been pretty
Speaker 1: vocal about the different treatments with trauma depression that I've done,
Speaker 1: and I just find them so fascinating and I'm constantly
Speaker 1: learning about new ones UM. And today we have a
Speaker 1: wonderful guest to talk to us about healing as well
Speaker 1: a somatic therapy, and that is Karen or Lickman. She's
Speaker 1: a therapist and spiritual director in San Francisco. Hey, everybody, Hey,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Karen. Oh, it's
Speaker 1: my pleasure. It's my honor and my pleasure. So I think,
Speaker 1: first off, the first question we'd love to talk about
Speaker 1: is like what you do and what your expertise is,
Speaker 1: just for the listeners to get to know you. Sure,
Speaker 1: I thought you were going to ask me what I
Speaker 1: was nerding out too. Oh my gosh, now we should
Speaker 1: do that. She listened to our wonder Woman episode and
Speaker 1: thank you so much. You are a thousand percent correct.
Speaker 1: We always start with what we're seeking out about. I
Speaker 1: think we were just excited to but no, yes, what
Speaker 1: are you seeking out about? Let's talk about that. Okay,
Speaker 1: So two things. One is um cooking. I'm totally geeking
Speaker 1: out on cooking and um, that's been really awesome. Actually,
Speaker 1: so last night I made a spicy roasted colleigue hour
Speaker 1: with feta, and UM, so good. It's gonna I'll be
Speaker 1: my lunch when we're finished today. And then the other
Speaker 1: thing I'm geeking out too is um these videos that
Speaker 1: are called high Kids. This is like a great uh
Speaker 1: stress coping strategy. They are these little five minute videos
Speaker 1: of kids, um trying weird food, or kids meeting people
Speaker 1: who have unusual professions or who like a farmer, gang member,
Speaker 1: a farmer, really homeless person. And kids are so awesome
Speaker 1: because they just say whatever. They don't censor the way
Speaker 1: adults do, and it is hilarious. So, UM, I love
Speaker 1: the high Kids. Oh I'm definitely going to check that
Speaker 1: out because yeah, it's you know, just watching the way
Speaker 1: kids taken information, watching like Naomi grow up. There's this
Speaker 1: like both like pureness, but this unfiltered where it's like
Speaker 1: I'm gonna just say it because I don't know, like
Speaker 1: I'm not you know, thinking about whether or not it
Speaker 1: hurt your feelings. But I'm just I want you to know.
Speaker 1: But one thing that she's doing that I'm really uh into,
Speaker 1: she like is giving us like status updates all the time,
Speaker 1: like she's like I'm happy or um or like I
Speaker 1: remember one time I thought, I was like, oh, you
Speaker 1: watched too much TV. You're gonna read books, and then
Speaker 1: she was like, I'm sad because I want TV. You're
Speaker 1: gonna have to be sad right now. I'm sorry. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm also on the cooking train. I've been uh, I've
Speaker 1: you know, I feel like I've been so in my
Speaker 1: instant pot especially the my my selling point that I've
Speaker 1: been telling all my friends is jasmine rice in four
Speaker 1: minutes like that that is that is enough to get
Speaker 1: so so I have like a bag of rice ready
Speaker 1: because that was the thing is I was always the
Speaker 1: only reason I didn't. I would always do like beans
Speaker 1: or lentils. Uh. And I'm talking about straight out the
Speaker 1: can just because those were quicker because rice is such
Speaker 1: a long process and now that I can get it
Speaker 1: out in like four minutes. And um, you know we
Speaker 1: I've watched this movie, the Better Half, Alice Woo's second film,
Speaker 1: and there's this sausage maker character in there, like his
Speaker 1: family makes sausages. So I bought like a bunch of
Speaker 1: broad worst and I've been cooking like lots of sausage.
Speaker 1: Uh so yeah, I'm I'm I'm also on the cooking train.
Speaker 1: But in the iffy physical media saga, the latest films
Speaker 1: I got was I got John Wick three on Blu
Speaker 1: Ray and uh and Big Lebowski because I always have
Speaker 1: to a copy of The Big Lebowski. Maybe I feel
Speaker 1: like you could just like wait and watch it on
Speaker 1: f X like literally any day. Oh, I have The
Speaker 1: Big Lebowski on DVD, but I wanted to own it
Speaker 1: in four K. And yeah, that's it's my favorite movie.
Speaker 1: You needed to see the pores up close? Yeah? Um
Speaker 1: for me, the thing that I'm king out about is
Speaker 1: the Mandalorian documentary The Behind the Scenes on Disney Plus
Speaker 1: It's Disney Gallery Star Wars the Mandalorian. I loved how
Speaker 1: they had a round table of the directors. Um and honestly,
Speaker 1: also I mean Deborah Chow, which is just seeing like
Speaker 1: Jon Favreaux, like just you know, gush over her uh
Speaker 1: and the action sequences, um, watching Tyka be Tyka and
Speaker 1: silly behind the scenes. And then Bryce Dallas Howard, who
Speaker 1: I still to this day. Her episode of Black Mirror
Speaker 1: is some of the best, like her best acting I
Speaker 1: think ever. UM and I just love I don't know.
Speaker 1: I love all the risks that they're taking with having
Speaker 1: different directors. I love seeing the behind the scenes. And
Speaker 1: I'm really excited for the next UH season, which I'm
Speaker 1: sure is going to have baby. He better still be
Speaker 1: a baby. I'm not ready for him to be old
Speaker 1: man Yoda anytime soon. I think it will literally take
Speaker 1: like seven hundred years because he's only five. Now. Well,
Speaker 1: there was the picture that just went out the other
Speaker 1: day of UH, which was one of the horror directors.
Speaker 1: Uh is it? Now? That's not Ramaro? What's what are
Speaker 1: the who did Grindhouse? Oh? Um? The other the one
Speaker 1: opposite of Quentin Tarantino who owns l Ray Oh? That's um?
Speaker 1: Uh Robert Rodriguez, Yes, let me see, I think it
Speaker 1: might have been him. Um, maybe not, Yeah, Robert Rodriguez. Yeah, yeah, no, no,
Speaker 1: I mean made him. He eighteen hours ago posted a
Speaker 1: picture right next to baby Yoda and said, I'm truly
Speaker 1: humbled to say I have now had the rare privilege
Speaker 1: of directing the biggest star in the universe. So Robert
Speaker 1: Rodriguez directed an episode in the next season which I'm
Speaker 1: so curious to see what that, you know, just knowing
Speaker 1: his work, like, is it going to be a heavy
Speaker 1: act and pulpic I would love that so much? But yeah,
Speaker 1: so and in the pictures, Sorry, the reason I brought
Speaker 1: it up. In the picture it's still a baby. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there you go. So still going to cash in on that.
Speaker 1: Um well um kicking off our mental health may super
Speaker 1: excited again about this episode. But Karen, I just kind
Speaker 1: of wanted to get into why you chose this field.
Speaker 1: I feel it's such a it's such a giving like
Speaker 1: to be someone that that people can turn to, uh
Speaker 1: to help heal. It's uh, I think at times can
Speaker 1: be very blessed and thankful but also thankless, I think
Speaker 1: at times. And so I just wanted to know what
Speaker 1: specifically made you go into this field. Well, I am
Speaker 1: I'm a licensed clinical social worker, so like my training
Speaker 1: and my education is as a social worker. And I
Speaker 1: never thought I was going to become a therapist. I
Speaker 1: was like an activist and a community organizer and you know,
Speaker 1: I wanted to like run ship and make change. And
Speaker 1: I do come from a family of people who are
Speaker 1: of service, like teachers and therapists. And my mom was
Speaker 1: a big activist and like you know, took us to
Speaker 1: demonstrations when I was a kid, and so I was
Speaker 1: really raised with this strong value of being compassionate and
Speaker 1: taking action. And but the first like ten years of
Speaker 1: my work life, I actually worked a lot with homeless
Speaker 1: pregnant drug addicts and UM was just like a basic
Speaker 1: kind of on the ground social worker in a health
Speaker 1: care setting and certainly brought like took a lot of
Speaker 1: classes about how to do therapy and what therapy is.
Speaker 1: But UM, I've always had this philosophy of you know,
Speaker 1: how do I be with people where they are? Um,
Speaker 1: there are some people who are just like never going
Speaker 1: to go to therapy. It's not their thing. They've shame,
Speaker 1: there's a stigma against it, whatever are the reasons. And
Speaker 1: so working in that hospital setting, even though I wasn't
Speaker 1: doing therapy, but I was able to be there as
Speaker 1: a resource and as an advocate and a support. And
Speaker 1: I still there are still a couple of UM women
Speaker 1: that I met at the hospital, like thirty years ago
Speaker 1: who still periodically will call me and say like, oh,
Speaker 1: my kids graduated from college, or like I've been sober
Speaker 1: for twenty five years, or just like it's so amazing.
Speaker 1: So I eventually got totally burned out on working in
Speaker 1: the health care system and decided, like one of the
Speaker 1: reasons I also became a social worker was because there's
Speaker 1: just so many different things you can do UM, and
Speaker 1: I also care about the larger context, like it's not
Speaker 1: just about what your toilet training is like, but it's
Speaker 1: also about gender and race and class and um you know,
Speaker 1: global trauma and like what we're all dealing with right
Speaker 1: now in some ways in terms of a global pandemic
Speaker 1: is a global trauma in a certain way. So UM
Speaker 1: I thought, well, I'm gonna try private practice and see
Speaker 1: how it is, and turned out I really loved it.
Speaker 1: And UM I started out and was certainly trained in
Speaker 1: some way in what might be considered traditional talk therapy,
Speaker 1: but I because I always worked with people who had
Speaker 1: experienced trauma, so like, for example, my second year of
Speaker 1: graduate school, I had an internship working in a rape
Speaker 1: crisis center, so I worked with women who had been
Speaker 1: either sexually assaulted as adults or as children. And um,
Speaker 1: I was amazed at like how the brain and the
Speaker 1: body works to keep people safe and alive, Like we
Speaker 1: are biological organisms at our core. And I remember I
Speaker 1: was um co leading a group. I had a supervisor
Speaker 1: at the time who specialized in something that used to
Speaker 1: be called multiple personality disorder, which is actually quite rare
Speaker 1: and we don't call it that anymore. But and um,
Speaker 1: I was leading a group, co leading a group with
Speaker 1: my supervisor, and this the woman would literally like come
Speaker 1: in and switch personalities, which was very disconcerting to the
Speaker 1: other people in the group. And so my supervisor just
Speaker 1: said to her one time, We're just going to ask
Speaker 1: you to bring I'm going to make up a name
Speaker 1: Amy to the group and leave everybody at else at home.
Speaker 1: Would that be okay? And she was like okay. I
Speaker 1: was like, wow, that is so magic, Like it was
Speaker 1: so it was amazing to me. And I remember thinking
Speaker 1: how cool it is that our brains have this way
Speaker 1: of protecting us by you know, what we call dissociation
Speaker 1: right where you like, something's happening to you, but you're
Speaker 1: separate from yourself because the pain would be too unbearable.
Speaker 1: And so if we have the capacity to disc see
Speaker 1: it that way, to disconnect from ourselves, we must have
Speaker 1: the capacity to reconnect, Like if it can go one way,
Speaker 1: it can go the other way. But you know, I
Speaker 1: was still young and I was learning, and I wasn't
Speaker 1: sure exactly how that worked. And eventually, over time I
Speaker 1: UM wanted to have I had some instinct about really
Speaker 1: like helping people to work somatically, but I felt like
Speaker 1: I needed ethically and professionally to have more training, like
Speaker 1: I need to know what I'm doing. This has to
Speaker 1: be legitimate. I'm a licensed professional. And so I took
Speaker 1: a couple of workshops and classes and eventually found a
Speaker 1: modality called sensory motor psychotherapy that UM gave me much
Speaker 1: more training and vocabulary and tools and working with trauma
Speaker 1: and UM and it since has shaped I still do
Speaker 1: talk therapy with a lot of people, like there are
Speaker 1: some even subgroups of of semantic therapy like UM neurofeedback
Speaker 1: and brain spotting and something called e M d R,
Speaker 1: and there are some other things like that um, and
Speaker 1: I think different therapists gravitate toward different modalities just depending
Speaker 1: on their personality and their skill set. But what I
Speaker 1: like about the semantic work is that it actually empowers
Speaker 1: people to be in charge of their healing. It gives
Speaker 1: you actually ultimately more of a sense of control, even
Speaker 1: though it can feel like less control, and ultimately that
Speaker 1: sense of empowerment, like your story does not run you.
Speaker 1: You know, your trauma does not run you. You are
Speaker 1: actually the person in charge of your own life, and
Speaker 1: here are some ways you can do it. That just
Speaker 1: makes sense to me. Yeah, that's super uh, super dope
Speaker 1: and interesting. And really, because I was in Danny Knows This,
Speaker 1: I went down like a wormhole of Uh, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of not a lot. There's a few, like prominent
Speaker 1: YouTube folks who have disassociative disorder d I d UM
Speaker 1: and them kind of explaining how it is. And that's
Speaker 1: kind of what you were saying. That's one thing I
Speaker 1: learned because they're saying that, uh, most times their new
Speaker 1: quote unquote personalities come from a trauma and then and
Speaker 1: they like, there are some personalities that are built to
Speaker 1: take in trauma, and then there are some to escape
Speaker 1: it and and when you hear it, it makes so
Speaker 1: much sense of like, oh, this is all just defense,
Speaker 1: your body protecting you, where you're protecting you, where you're like, okay,
Speaker 1: we're gonna And a lot of times the person who's
Speaker 1: there to take in the trauma is uh an archetype
Speaker 1: that is like strong who you know that person may
Speaker 1: see as like someone who can like take that type
Speaker 1: of stuff, and it's it's it just shows you the
Speaker 1: power of the mind and why you know, and I
Speaker 1: think Danny is the number one person, but we all
Speaker 1: believe here, like you talked to a therapist, even if
Speaker 1: you think you don't have to, even if you feel like,
Speaker 1: oh I have nothing, just sitting down and talk, you'll
Speaker 1: be surprised. And that's how you know a lot of friends,
Speaker 1: you know, we'll be in talking and they'll be like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't think I need I was like, well, I
Speaker 1: feel like, look you got the insurance, you know, because
Speaker 1: my friend group we're all writers, so you know they
Speaker 1: have that great insurance. Because the w g A was
Speaker 1: like writers, y'all need therapy. But uh, but like I'm
Speaker 1: I like so many of them, I've just been like,
Speaker 1: just go you know, you get it for free anyway,
Speaker 1: you get it for free or cheap, just you know,
Speaker 1: go see what happens. And a lot of them have
Speaker 1: been like, WHOA, I'm glad I did that. I was
Speaker 1: gonna say, I wanted to get into UM kind of
Speaker 1: for people that don't know what Semitic therapy is, I
Speaker 1: know that it was created by Peter Levine in the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. I was watching videos about it that essentially
Speaker 1: studying animals and wild and what they do with survival energy,
Speaker 1: which you were kind of touching on, UM, But can
Speaker 1: you explain it a little bit more for people that
Speaker 1: aren't familiar with it. Absolutely, UM. Peter Levine is one
Speaker 1: of a handful of people who have pioneered this field
Speaker 1: of somatic therapy. And I think that like the general
Speaker 1: population has heard the expression fight or flight, but actually
Speaker 1: there are there are more than two, UM different responses
Speaker 1: we have Like we are animals ultimately, and there are
Speaker 1: these biological responses that we have to something that's perceived
Speaker 1: as a threat. And UM. One of my favorite things
Speaker 1: at ways to UM illustrate this is if you look
Speaker 1: up something called feigned death f E I G N
Speaker 1: E D. Have you seen this, I see, Dan, have
Speaker 1: you heard of this real? So much so, like if
Speaker 1: an animal is being stalked by a predator, like a
Speaker 1: gazelle is being stalked by a lion or a cheetah
Speaker 1: or something like that, one of the they have all
Speaker 1: these right, they don't want to be lunch. They want
Speaker 1: to survive. So one of the responses that they used
Speaker 1: to stay alive is that they pretend to be dead.
Speaker 1: And when you see them on the video, literally they
Speaker 1: look you can't detect any breathing whatsoever. They're dead. The
Speaker 1: predator might even pick them up in their mouth, and
Speaker 1: then they eventually because of the feigned death condition, the
Speaker 1: predator will leave and you see the animal get up,
Speaker 1: shake itself off, and just keep going. Like I could
Speaker 1: not make this up. It's really remarkable. And so I've
Speaker 1: heard stories from people it's not exactly feigned death, but
Speaker 1: people who had trauma, especially as children, where they said
Speaker 1: I just laid there and pretended I pretended I was
Speaker 1: asleep until it was over, and UM other variations on
Speaker 1: things like that. UM. And I think that now, of course,
Speaker 1: with technology, UM researchers have the capacity to literally see
Speaker 1: what is going on in the brain when somebody is
Speaker 1: in what I'm going to call an activated trauma state.
Speaker 1: Because the way that Peter Levine and Bessel vander Koke
Speaker 1: and some of these other UM pioneers have UM, what
Speaker 1: they've uncovered for us is that UM, there's generally people
Speaker 1: like the fight or flight. There's either this very hyper
Speaker 1: aroused like UM fight response, like you know, I don't
Speaker 1: want to die, so I'm going to defend myself, or
Speaker 1: there's what we call the hypo aroused state, which can
Speaker 1: sort of look like I'm depressed, I can't get out
Speaker 1: of bed, I'm stuck, I'm not I can't feel, and
Speaker 1: and and so they started to learn different strategies for
Speaker 1: helping people regulate. So just an example that I know
Speaker 1: is dear to your heart if he is physical exercise,
Speaker 1: So being able to certain ways that people exercise, like
Speaker 1: literally can have a huge impact on your body chemistry
Speaker 1: and your brain chemistry. And so UM, whether it's rigorous,
Speaker 1: really rigorous cardio or lifting, or something that's very subtle
Speaker 1: and gentle like tai chi, but like that is a
Speaker 1: way that we can actually have an impact on regulating
Speaker 1: how our bodies respond. And then you can take a
Speaker 1: picture of the brain and you can be like, hey,
Speaker 1: the frontal lobe is completely lit up. This is awesome.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Now I truly believe that because, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: a big, big fan of working out, and even you know,
Speaker 1: we're talking about the quarantines effect on our mental health. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, one of the things that were shut down
Speaker 1: immediately was the gym for a good reason. And I
Speaker 1: totally felt the difference in my uh not only like, uh,
Speaker 1: my general mental health, but also just to how I
Speaker 1: viewed myself in the moment I was able to get
Speaker 1: like a workout bench and workout at home, I just
Speaker 1: immediately felt better and I felt and I realized that
Speaker 1: that has been something just through doing it all this
Speaker 1: time that I've attached to kind of normalizing my my situation. Usually,
Speaker 1: especially if I'm on a busy schedule, of the moment
Speaker 1: I can fit in the gym is when I start
Speaker 1: to feel balanced. And it became like so apparent when
Speaker 1: I needed, you know, the workout equipment just to feel
Speaker 1: fine being at home absolutely well. And I'm glad you
Speaker 1: mentioned about sheltering in place, because one of the things
Speaker 1: I've been hearing from people a lot is that they
Speaker 1: feel the urge to run, like they literally feel this
Speaker 1: feeling in their legs, like they just want to like run,
Speaker 1: and so um, that is can be like a natural
Speaker 1: response to basically being trapped in the house, right, Like
Speaker 1: anybody who's experienced trauma does not I mean, nobody likes
Speaker 1: to be trapped, but if you're somebody who has actually
Speaker 1: been trapped in a trauma, it's kind of extra potent.
Speaker 1: And so sometimes I'll say, well, let's get up and
Speaker 1: run and we'll run, we'll stand up, I'm stand up
Speaker 1: to and actually like let the I sometimes refer to
Speaker 1: it as like the body needs to finish telling the story, right,
Speaker 1: It's not enough to just verbally tell the story. And
Speaker 1: sometimes people actually don't even remember because the trauma isn't
Speaker 1: just you know, a person to person thing that's occurred.
Speaker 1: Trauma can also be a car accident, um, living through
Speaker 1: a natural disaster. There's multigenerational trauma. There's people who have
Speaker 1: been traumatized by um immigration experiences. There's the trauma extreme poverty,
Speaker 1: Like there's all kinds of things that don't have to
Speaker 1: do with mean people. They just have to do with
Speaker 1: very painful experiences. And so it's a pretty low risk thing.
Speaker 1: And I'm not gonna say no risk, but to say, okay,
Speaker 1: we're going to run in place together and just move.
Speaker 1: Notice what happens, and I'm right here running with you.
Speaker 1: Because it's not a good feeling. If I were to
Speaker 1: say this is just me personally, well, why don't you
Speaker 1: get up and run and I'm just going to sit
Speaker 1: here and watch you do it? Like that's not so comfortable.
Speaker 1: But we are doing this together and let's see what happens, UM,
Speaker 1: and we can stop any time. UM has actually been
Speaker 1: really helpful for people. They're like, oh, I'm not insane
Speaker 1: that my legs keep doing this thing. No, No, you're
Speaker 1: not insane, honey, you're trapped in the house. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: was going to say when I was watching uh TED
Speaker 1: talk on somatic therapy that they were talking about it
Speaker 1: was by Monica less Age less Age that they were
Speaker 1: saying about becoming comfortable with trembling, that it's like the
Speaker 1: body's natural response to energy, and your body is trying
Speaker 1: to get out this energy and to be okay with
Speaker 1: it as opposed to trying to stop it. And another
Speaker 1: thing I wanted to say what I realized after I
Speaker 1: graduated from I did an intensive outpatient program for trauma,
Speaker 1: and I completely agree. I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: think of trauma as one specific traumatic event like nine eleven,
Speaker 1: or you served in the war, or you were sexually assaulted,
Speaker 1: and those all our trauma, but it could be a
Speaker 1: series of events of like an emotionally abusive parent that
Speaker 1: wasn't really around or constantly called you stupid, um bullying
Speaker 1: in middle school. Uh, these are like I'm listening off mine, um,
Speaker 1: you know. Or for me, it's like being ghosted by
Speaker 1: romantic interests and they suddenly just completely drop out of
Speaker 1: your life. Like that to me is really traumatic, And
Speaker 1: so it's kind of like what if he was saying that,
Speaker 1: Like a lot of times people think that they don't
Speaker 1: need help or they don't qualify when a lot of
Speaker 1: these things can even an unstable not knowing where you're
Speaker 1: gonna live, like constantly moving from from couch to couch,
Speaker 1: and being scared about eating and rationing food, like these
Speaker 1: are all traumatic and it holds tension in your body
Speaker 1: and you can even feel it, like when I'm clenching
Speaker 1: my teeth or when I'm constantly reminding myself to let
Speaker 1: go and that is creating like trauma and your muscles even.
Speaker 1: And so this to me is all just really fascinating
Speaker 1: because it kind of opens up people's eyes to what
Speaker 1: we've all lived through. I even think of it as
Speaker 1: being a woman when I'm walking and being clenching, clenching
Speaker 1: my keys or my body because I'm approaching men that
Speaker 1: are calling me out and whatever like that to me
Speaker 1: is a trauma to constantly go through since I was twelve,
Speaker 1: you know. So it's just there's such a range with trauma,
Speaker 1: and I hope that this kind of opens people's eyes
Speaker 1: to it. You know, there is exactly this range of
Speaker 1: trauma or continuum of trauma, and there's now been some
Speaker 1: more research and programs that look at um trauma that's
Speaker 1: related to um, you know, racial violence, racism, sexism, sexual violence, homophobia,
Speaker 1: you know, violence against trans people, all of those things
Speaker 1: and UM and that UM sometimes it's you know, what
Speaker 1: people refer to as microaggressions, Like it's those things that
Speaker 1: occur every day over time. It may not be that
Speaker 1: you've actually been physically assaulted, but even just growing up
Speaker 1: in a culture that views you as disposable garbage has
Speaker 1: a traumatizing effect. And small tea in a certain way. UM.
Speaker 1: And I'm so glad you said what you said, Danny
Speaker 1: about shaking, because if you've ever seen like if you
Speaker 1: if you own a dog, for example, and you watch
Speaker 1: a dog like, um, try to find a comfortable position,
Speaker 1: and how it kind of like circles around and round. Um,
Speaker 1: it's doing something physically to find its comfortable place. Or
Speaker 1: you might see a dog that's been like swimming or
Speaker 1: out running or whatever and it'll shake itself off. And
Speaker 1: so sometimes what we need to do to to reset
Speaker 1: our nervous systems is to actually I'm a big and
Speaker 1: of um dancing for that right, like to put on
Speaker 1: some music and um, now because I'm working with people
Speaker 1: on Zoom, I'll say to people, turn your camera off
Speaker 1: so you don't have to worry about me or anybody
Speaker 1: else seeing you, and put on some music and just
Speaker 1: you know, shake it out. Um. And for some people
Speaker 1: it's much more about like stillness and quieting. But there
Speaker 1: are these amazing strategies that we can use to basically
Speaker 1: reset ourselves. And then it's helpful to have the talk
Speaker 1: part of therapy to to think about want to have
Speaker 1: a safe, supportive person who's going to be able to
Speaker 1: say it's not your fault, you're not crazy, and I'm
Speaker 1: here with you for the long haul, and then also
Speaker 1: like to help you build like a toolkit for yourself.
Speaker 1: And so I wanted to give a movie example because
Speaker 1: I think of it as people having We all have
Speaker 1: this very fine tuned in internal security system that is
Speaker 1: scanning for danger, and for people who have had trauma,
Speaker 1: that internal security system is like on high alert all
Speaker 1: the time, and it can be really really exhausting because
Speaker 1: it doesn't no linear time, so it doesn't know the
Speaker 1: difference between like a cheetah you imagine, and an actual cheetah.
Speaker 1: There was this movie called Entrapment with Sean Connery and um,
Speaker 1: Katherine Zita Jones, and there's a scene in there where
Speaker 1: Katherine Zita Jones is I don't know if she's in
Speaker 1: a gallery. I can't remember where she is, but she's
Speaker 1: she's in a cat suit. I remember that. It is
Speaker 1: a very famous scene, and she's there's this security system
Speaker 1: with these infrared beams and basically she's trying to like
Speaker 1: navigate through the room without setting off the security system
Speaker 1: in the building. And to me, that scene is like
Speaker 1: you should go google it because it is the perfect
Speaker 1: metaphor for what we call in the trauma world, for
Speaker 1: hyper vigilance, for just being like you said, you know,
Speaker 1: with your jaw clenched and like your fists are clenched
Speaker 1: and your heart's racing. You stop breathing, and you because
Speaker 1: you're trying to stay alive, trying to stay alive. On
Speaker 1: that note, we're going to take a quick break because
Speaker 1: we gotta, you know, do these breaks even though we're
Speaker 1: dropping some some major heat that fire knowledge, some fire knowledge.
Speaker 1: But when we come back, we will continue this discussion
Speaker 1: and we're back. How you doing listening to nerdfficent to
Speaker 1: our first episode of mental health May here with Danny
Speaker 1: and Karen Lackman, and we're talking about somatic therapy and
Speaker 1: we're getting it's getting good. Karen, I had I had
Speaker 1: a question. So when I was looking at somatic processing,
Speaker 1: it's a little different than some of the therapy. Some
Speaker 1: of the trauma therapy have done different types. But one
Speaker 1: person was talking about how you kind of touch into
Speaker 1: the smallest amount of trauma energy instead of tackling it
Speaker 1: all or kind of all spewing it out. A little
Speaker 1: bit different than some other stuff. I've done, you know,
Speaker 1: I've experimented different ways. Um, can you talk about that
Speaker 1: like kind of just that tapping into like one tiny
Speaker 1: thing as opposed to tackling a huge or all your
Speaker 1: trauma at once. Sure, I think, Um, it varies from
Speaker 1: person to person both, you know, every therapist approaches it differently,
Speaker 1: but also each person in their own healing journey is
Speaker 1: going to experience it a little differently. And so like
Speaker 1: some people have are clearly experiencing trauma as in like
Speaker 1: their nervous system is like the engine of a car
Speaker 1: that's just flooded all the time, with no memory of
Speaker 1: anything that happened to them. And there are some people
Speaker 1: who have very very clear memories of events in their
Speaker 1: life that happened to them. And depending on which somatic
Speaker 1: approach you're using, you may draw on one small It's
Speaker 1: like you're sort of I'm like pulling it. It's like
Speaker 1: you're pulling a thread, right, but you don't want the
Speaker 1: whole thing to unravel, so you do it very gently
Speaker 1: and very delicately. And so for me, the focus is
Speaker 1: on how it's showing up in your life right now,
Speaker 1: in this moment. Because our nervous systems don't know anything
Speaker 1: about linear time, and so when there's something that activates people,
Speaker 1: it's as if it's happening right now. It doesn't matter
Speaker 1: what whether it was a week ago or a month
Speaker 1: ago or twenty years ago, but it is real in
Speaker 1: the moment right now. So I want to give you
Speaker 1: like a very benign example of something that isn't exactly
Speaker 1: a trauma, but it illustrates this pattern that we're talking about,
Speaker 1: which is if you went to a restaurant. Let's say
Speaker 1: you you went to a restaurant and you ordered a
Speaker 1: shrimp dish and you got food poisoning, like you were
Speaker 1: like seriously ill, you probably would think twice one before
Speaker 1: going back to that same restaurant or to ever eating
Speaker 1: shrimp again. And even if you did finally get to
Speaker 1: the point where you were willing to eat shrimp again,
Speaker 1: you might have a little private moment to yourself like
Speaker 1: do I really want to do this? Is it worth it?
Speaker 1: What if I get sick again? And because it's a
Speaker 1: natural right, like your body and your brain are like
Speaker 1: we are not going there again, and so um, it
Speaker 1: can seem like I'm making a little circular motion with
Speaker 1: my hand here right, like why Why are you tripping
Speaker 1: about the shrimp? Why are you obsessing about the Okay,
Speaker 1: but it's not it's you, it's um. It's a self
Speaker 1: protective mechanism, and so being able to unpack that a
Speaker 1: little bit so you can figure out, like can you
Speaker 1: live without eating shrimp? Absolutely, But there are other things
Speaker 1: that can really interfere with people's everyday lives where if
Speaker 1: we just slow it down and take one small piece
Speaker 1: and say, how is this showing up in your life
Speaker 1: right now in this moment, Let's work with that. And
Speaker 1: I wanted to say, I know that you do that.
Speaker 1: You are a healing spiritual person, a therapist as well.
Speaker 1: Are there things that people like our listeners can do
Speaker 1: at home, um, that you would recommend that's you know,
Speaker 1: accessible to them? Yeah? I think, Um, you know, it's
Speaker 1: always a tricky thing to figure out. Like you know,
Speaker 1: Peter Levine his early book is called Waking the Tiger,
Speaker 1: and it's like that image of like when you once
Speaker 1: you start to open this up, if you can imagine
Speaker 1: a tiger that's sleeping and you start poking at it,
Speaker 1: you don't actually know how it's going to react. So
Speaker 1: I would really, um, while I totally support, empowering people
Speaker 1: on their own healing. Also just want to advise people
Speaker 1: like this is a little bit of a landline and
Speaker 1: sometimes it can blow up, but there are some things
Speaker 1: that you can do. So I'll give you a personal example.
Speaker 1: I bought myself a little a Roman thep Be machine
Speaker 1: for like twenty books. I ordered online. I had it delivered.
Speaker 1: It's in my um my study right now at home,
Speaker 1: and it is something. Engaging your senses is something that
Speaker 1: is very soothing to the nervous system. And so like
Speaker 1: being trapped in the house, which again is a small
Speaker 1: t trauma. Um. You know, the nice calming smell of
Speaker 1: lavender just is relaxing. Um. Or like I said, like
Speaker 1: put some music on and dance around. So when you
Speaker 1: can engage your senses as a way of orienting yourself
Speaker 1: towards being stable and safe. So it might be calming music,
Speaker 1: it might be a smell. Um. You know, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of spiritual traditions use things like anointing oils and incense,
Speaker 1: and you know there's reasons for that. Um. So engaging
Speaker 1: your five senses. And another thing where there's actually some
Speaker 1: data about this is drumming. There is some data that
Speaker 1: shows is that drumming can be very effective for people
Speaker 1: in reducing the effects the negative effects of trauma. So
Speaker 1: for those of you who are trying to think about
Speaker 1: like something new you want to try at home, Like
Speaker 1: you don't have to go buy an expensive drum. You
Speaker 1: can use like turning trash can upside down, or just
Speaker 1: use the side of your table or something. You don't
Speaker 1: have to be a good musician. But it's one of
Speaker 1: those things where you have the sense of touch and
Speaker 1: you have the sound and your body's natural impulse to
Speaker 1: want to move to the rhythm that is very regulating
Speaker 1: for the nervous system. That is not a listen. Drumming
Speaker 1: on the side of your coffee table is not a
Speaker 1: substitute for real psychotherapy, but it is something that's relatively
Speaker 1: low risk that you can try at home and see
Speaker 1: what happens. The Five Senses has literally saved me from
Speaker 1: having a panic attack when I was like I think
Speaker 1: it was Thanksgiving. I was out with my family. We
Speaker 1: were like walking around a pond. There are a bunch
Speaker 1: of people out. I don't know why, Like a memory
Speaker 1: hit me and I is just about to spiral in
Speaker 1: front of everyone, and the five senses was great because
Speaker 1: it not only brought me back to the present moment
Speaker 1: instead of that memory, but I had to keep my
Speaker 1: mind going. It was like what can I see? Okay,
Speaker 1: I see this green tree, I see red leaves, I
Speaker 1: see this kid with purple shoes. Okay, now what do
Speaker 1: I taste? What kind of taste? Like the ice cream
Speaker 1: my head earlier? What am I? You know? And so
Speaker 1: like your brain is trying to go through what am
Speaker 1: I touching? I can feel my wool that I'm wearing,
Speaker 1: and it just is like it actually is occupying my
Speaker 1: brain where I'm having to actively in the moment. And
Speaker 1: then I would do it again and then I would
Speaker 1: restart what am I seeing? Now? What am I smelling? Now?
Speaker 1: I smell a little bit of the freshly cut grass,
Speaker 1: And it was just like I do that also with
Speaker 1: breathing exercises, with meditation, I was someone literally hated when
Speaker 1: people would tell me to meditate. I'm like, this is
Speaker 1: you know, when you've when you've dealt with a lot
Speaker 1: of trauma, it feels very patronizing, it feels very um
Speaker 1: just kind of like, oh, you can get over it
Speaker 1: with just think like meditating. And I got to a
Speaker 1: point where I was like, I will I will eat
Speaker 1: shoelaces whatever you want me to do to get you
Speaker 1: get to a point where you're like, I will do anything.
Speaker 1: And so I actually, um, I'm a competitive person. This
Speaker 1: is probably not the healthiest, but I got competitive about
Speaker 1: meditating because I used the calm app and it actually
Speaker 1: shows me how much how many sessions and how much time.
Speaker 1: And now I've wrapped up like five hundred sessions, which
Speaker 1: is I'm very proud of myself for doing that. But
Speaker 1: one of the meditations would literally just have you count
Speaker 1: your breath, and that again took me out. I couldn't
Speaker 1: think of the thing because I'm like one, two, three, four,
Speaker 1: like and you had I had to keep track of
Speaker 1: my numbers. So there's so many great things that you
Speaker 1: can do, like you were saying, to ground yourself in
Speaker 1: the present moment um, and and they do work as
Speaker 1: much as I am someone who actively you know. And
Speaker 1: and again it's also a process of finding what works
Speaker 1: for you, but being open and willing to try it.
Speaker 1: I think of myself as really resilient for surviving. I'm
Speaker 1: getting emotional, sorry, I think of myself as really resilient
Speaker 1: and like there's a part of me that's just so
Speaker 1: unwilling to give up, like it's just fighting so hard,
Speaker 1: and it's like, I'm not going to give up on myself.
Speaker 1: I'm going to keep trying different things to find what
Speaker 1: works for me, and if this doesn't work, I'm going
Speaker 1: to try something else. Because there are people who have
Speaker 1: dealt with even more trauma than I have that have
Speaker 1: found these helpful and that you know, so there has
Speaker 1: to be something behind them, and all of them, I say,
Speaker 1: I think all of them have helped in different ways.
Speaker 1: You know, they're not all the same, but it's kind
Speaker 1: of created a toolbox for me essentially that depending on
Speaker 1: what I'm dealing with, I can bring out different coping skills.
Speaker 1: So thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that we have.
Speaker 1: On that note, we have to take another really quick break,
Speaker 1: and then we're going to go into how others can help.
Speaker 1: If you have someone a loved one in your life, um,
Speaker 1: how you can be a support system for them, and
Speaker 1: we are back. UM. Thank you Karen again for joining
Speaker 1: us on the first episode of Mental Health May Um.
Speaker 1: Something that I've kind of dealt with in my life.
Speaker 1: Very loving, great people who just don't understand, um, why
Speaker 1: I can't get over some of the some of the
Speaker 1: memories and things that just keep coming up for me.
Speaker 1: And UM, how I guess, how can people who want
Speaker 1: to be supportive understand that? And what are things that
Speaker 1: they can do to help the people that they love
Speaker 1: in their lives? Um, that's a great question. And I
Speaker 1: guess the first thing I would say is don't give
Speaker 1: advice unless somebody asks for it. So I'm gonna start
Speaker 1: with what not to do? Um, say it again, I
Speaker 1: mean really giving advice, won't offer suggestions, don't have The
Speaker 1: first thing you do offer is the first thing you
Speaker 1: do should not be offering suggestions, no advising. It's no
Speaker 1: no fixing, no saving, no advising, no correcting. It is
Speaker 1: not somebody else's job to fix you. So that is
Speaker 1: the first thing I will say, is to just whatever.
Speaker 1: And there are some people who can't help themselves, and
Speaker 1: even though they love you and they care about you,
Speaker 1: and they need to be told stop. So UM, I
Speaker 1: think that people can say I wish I knew what
Speaker 1: to say. It's sort of like with grieving, when you know,
Speaker 1: if you've gone through a loss of some kind of
Speaker 1: grief is very much a part of trauma also, and
Speaker 1: people say the dumbest things when they're trying to be supportive. Um,
Speaker 1: when they can just say, I wish I knew the
Speaker 1: right thing to say. If there was something I could
Speaker 1: do to make it easier for you, I would love
Speaker 1: to do it. I'm here for you, I'm with you,
Speaker 1: I will sit with you. I love you, I care
Speaker 1: about you. I don't judge you. I can be patient
Speaker 1: as long as you need me to be patient. So
Speaker 1: it's that sense of if you want to be supportive
Speaker 1: to somebody else who's dealing with this kind of pain,
Speaker 1: to let them know that you are with them in it,
Speaker 1: that you can just sit next to them. You know,
Speaker 1: you don't even have to say anything. Sometimes the best
Speaker 1: thing you can do is say, like, I'm going to
Speaker 1: drop off some soup at your house. Would that be okay? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I totally agree about listening. Sometimes people just need to vent.
Speaker 1: And the hardest thing also is having someone who hasn't
Speaker 1: gone through that try to advise you. It's like, oh, no,
Speaker 1: I've already done so much of this work. It's so
Speaker 1: there's also another thing that a friend friend at the pod,
Speaker 1: we haven't had her on you but tybee disk and
Speaker 1: she like did this uh this like I G story
Speaker 1: that's stuck with me where she asked all her friends.
Speaker 1: She was like, what is a way that I can
Speaker 1: check in on you where you feel loved? Like? What? What?
Speaker 1: How do you like being checked in on? And I
Speaker 1: thought that was great and it's something that I've asked
Speaker 1: a lot of friends of like, because it is true
Speaker 1: where you know, some people can feel like you're hovering
Speaker 1: if you're just like, are you okay? I know, so
Speaker 1: if they're like, oh, if you just you know, ask
Speaker 1: me about how's my day? Or oh, if you just
Speaker 1: like tell me about something you've seen, and then we
Speaker 1: start conversating from there, it really helps. So I think
Speaker 1: that's another way to start a question, which is a
Speaker 1: which is a good way too. If you have someone
Speaker 1: that you do want to check in on and you
Speaker 1: don't want to seem to, you know, in their face
Speaker 1: about it, you can just ask them that simple question
Speaker 1: and then you know what they kind of want from you.
Speaker 1: I often feel like we should all come with a
Speaker 1: little instruction manual that we can give to the people
Speaker 1: in our lives and that somehow we've been taught this
Speaker 1: pile of garbage that basically says it's not really garbage
Speaker 1: because I do understand it's psychologically, but that the people
Speaker 1: who love us should just intuitively know what we need
Speaker 1: and does automatically give it to us. And then if
Speaker 1: we have to tell them what we need, that therefore
Speaker 1: they're not going to mean it when they do it,
Speaker 1: and it's just not true. It's not true. The only
Speaker 1: way that somebody else can know what you need. Some
Speaker 1: people are very intuitive, but we all need to be
Speaker 1: able to say. It's like when you're sick. Forget trauma
Speaker 1: for a second. Some people, when they're sick, they just
Speaker 1: want to be left alone. Don't bother me. Just put
Speaker 1: the bulls suit by the door. I don't want anybody.
Speaker 1: I don't want to see anybody. I don't want to
Speaker 1: talk to anybody. Some people want to be doated on,
Speaker 1: they want to be babied, and they want to be
Speaker 1: taken care of, and they want all of that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. But if you want to be left alone
Speaker 1: and somebody is hovering over you, it feels terrible. So
Speaker 1: just to ask this is like, here's a little like
Speaker 1: dating thing too. I always ask people, recommend to people,
Speaker 1: ask the person, what they're like when they're are sick,
Speaker 1: it will tell you a lot about their personality. So
Speaker 1: just to be able to say even around basic things
Speaker 1: like you know what I just need to be let
Speaker 1: when I get like this, what I need is space.
Speaker 1: That's that's so important. Oh sorry, what were you gonna say? No,
Speaker 1: I don't mean to cut you off. Oh, I was
Speaker 1: just saying just the intersection between this and kind of dating,
Speaker 1: and because you know, I've I've I've always talked about
Speaker 1: boundaries and what people need, and I think that is
Speaker 1: so important, because yeah, I really want to talk about
Speaker 1: just that idea of so much of our way of
Speaker 1: talking with and interacting with humans are just kind of
Speaker 1: like dated societal things, and I think that that we
Speaker 1: often forget that. No, that's not true. I think especially
Speaker 1: if you look at the way different people handle just
Speaker 1: situations in trauma. Like one of the big things is
Speaker 1: growing up being my sister. We will fight. I would
Speaker 1: get on our nerves and like we would fight, like
Speaker 1: we would get so mad at each other, like where
Speaker 1: you think, like, oh man, they probably need to sit
Speaker 1: down and hash it out, but no, we just go
Speaker 1: our separate ways and we would just come through because
Speaker 1: we know that we were just kind of picking at
Speaker 1: each other. Now if there was something that actually happened,
Speaker 1: if there was something I was actively doing, then she
Speaker 1: would call it out. But there's the we knew the
Speaker 1: difference of like, oh, we're just kind of picking at
Speaker 1: each other because we're in the house. And I feel
Speaker 1: like that has always uh that that kind of carried
Speaker 1: over into because you know, uh, every the way you
Speaker 1: interact with your family is essentially how you go out
Speaker 1: into the world. And that it was something I had
Speaker 1: to learn because I was so used to being like, oh,
Speaker 1: if we have a spat, I just need to give
Speaker 1: you some distance and we'll come back. And you come
Speaker 1: back and they're like, no, I want to talk about
Speaker 1: what just happened. And it was like, oh, that that's
Speaker 1: a whole new world for me. But you you would,
Speaker 1: you'd be like, well, no, this is how I perceive problems.
Speaker 1: And it's taking that kind of open mindedness, something I
Speaker 1: think Dani also said, just having the open mindedness to
Speaker 1: kind of explore and see what someone else needs instead
Speaker 1: of trying to operate on what you go by. I
Speaker 1: wanted to say to our friend of the pod, Christopher
Speaker 1: Smith Bryant. He's been on a couple episodes and he
Speaker 1: is great. One of my best friends checked in on
Speaker 1: me this weekend, was like, hey, I haven't heard from
Speaker 1: you in a while. Are you okay? And I said,
Speaker 1: not really spiraled about something and I don't want to
Speaker 1: rehash it because that would just cause me to spiral more, um,
Speaker 1: but thank you for checking in on me. And then
Speaker 1: two days later, which was great, he was just like, hey,
Speaker 1: just want to still make sure you're doing okay. And
Speaker 1: then at that point I was now I didn't want
Speaker 1: to rehash everything, but I could tell him what had
Speaker 1: happened essentially, and I was like, you know, I had
Speaker 1: this session. It was it was diving into a bunch
Speaker 1: of stuff and I really appreciate you checking in on me.
Speaker 1: So he wasn't like pressing me to talk more about
Speaker 1: it in that moment. And another thing that happened was
Speaker 1: my therapist. You know, we've talked about how healing is
Speaker 1: this process. It just you think like, oh, I'm done,
Speaker 1: I did the thing and I'm done, and it like keeps,
Speaker 1: you know, healing. And my my therapist was like, I think,
Speaker 1: you know if you want to journal, and I just
Speaker 1: got to a point where I was like, I don't
Speaker 1: want to journal. I don't want to do one more meditation.
Speaker 1: I don't want to do one more self love exercise,
Speaker 1: Like I've done this for years and I was so tired.
Speaker 1: And she was like okay, Like she was just like okay, um,
Speaker 1: I respect that she respect. And then of course, like
Speaker 1: after a couple of days, I'm like, okay, I'm ready
Speaker 1: to journal. I miss it, you know. And it's just
Speaker 1: like but you get to a point and it's like
Speaker 1: so not forcing, like just respecting where you are, meeting
Speaker 1: yourself where you are, and if you just do not
Speaker 1: feel like doing that, there's a reason why your body
Speaker 1: is rejecting it. So allowing yourself grace and then when
Speaker 1: you start to feel like, you know what I actually do,
Speaker 1: think that I can sit down and do that today.
Speaker 1: M hm. That Um. One other thing I wanted to say,
Speaker 1: just you know from someone that that is healing and
Speaker 1: dealing with trauma. I in my relation ships. One of
Speaker 1: my exes who I love, just a really supportive, great person.
Speaker 1: He we would get in fights, kind of like what
Speaker 1: you were talking about. If we would get in fights
Speaker 1: and I would bring up my trauma, like, well, you
Speaker 1: haven't survived this and I have an autoimmune disorder and
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. And he was like, well you're always
Speaker 1: gonna win then, And I realized this is so unhealthy,
Speaker 1: you know, and luckily I was able to work in therapy.
Speaker 1: But I was like, I love this person, and my
Speaker 1: illness is not a trump card over his life if
Speaker 1: he had a problem at work, that is, I need
Speaker 1: to honor that, like I cannot. And it's so easy
Speaker 1: in an argument to kind of just throw that, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm also a firm believer your trauma is
Speaker 1: not a trump card to harm other people. It does not.
Speaker 1: You need to take accountability. It is a vicious cycle,
Speaker 1: and it's one that can be broken. My dad was
Speaker 1: really abusive and I did so much therapy did not
Speaker 1: turn into him. But I think there is a level
Speaker 1: of accountability that we are. You know, I'm speaking as
Speaker 1: someone that has trauma cannot trump other people that we
Speaker 1: care about. Yeah, it's just so you know. I have
Speaker 1: literally I have in my bedroom, I have a painting
Speaker 1: that says choose Love. And I'm really just trying to
Speaker 1: like constantly choose love. Choose love. Um, I'm sorry, go
Speaker 1: ahead related to that, because I didn't feel there was
Speaker 1: You would ask a question earlier about spirituality, and to me,
Speaker 1: choosing love is it's an emotional thing, it's a physical thing,
Speaker 1: and it's a spiritual thing and um, and I'm not
Speaker 1: talking about religion. I'm talking about meaning making and creativity
Speaker 1: and ritual and um, resources that engage your imagination and
Speaker 1: the possibility of I'm going to call it a healed future,
Speaker 1: you know that which kind of orient you toward your
Speaker 1: own homeless and there are so many ways that that
Speaker 1: can be done. So I just love that image. Thank
Speaker 1: you for that, Danny of having a painting in your
Speaker 1: room that says, choose love as a reminder to yourself.
Speaker 1: And it's probably there are some days when you look
Speaker 1: at it a lot more than other days. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: so difficult, but worth it, really worth it. Um, Karen,
Speaker 1: thank you so much again for coming on. Where can
Speaker 1: people find you or I don't know if people can
Speaker 1: find you on social media? If you're want people to
Speaker 1: find yes, this is a new era. Um yes, so
Speaker 1: I um. Well, my website is just my name Karen
Speaker 1: Erlikman dot com. I have a very small social media
Speaker 1: presence because you know, like, do you really want to
Speaker 1: follow your therapist Twitter feed? Maybe maybe not, but k
Speaker 1: replenish on the I G or Twitter, and um, I really,
Speaker 1: you know, even now while we're in this global pandemic,
Speaker 1: it's been amazing to be able to continue to work
Speaker 1: with people and the innate capacity to heal our brokenness
Speaker 1: just continues to amaze me every day. Me. I guess
Speaker 1: you can find wherever you want to find me if
Speaker 1: you wad Way, Twitter and Instagram, if d s on Twitch,
Speaker 1: in the discord discord dot gg Ford slash Salt Squad,
Speaker 1: which I feel I hope everyone in the Real Stuff
Speaker 1: Discord listens to this episode because that's usually where people
Speaker 1: go to kind of decompress and just have an open
Speaker 1: vent session about their mental health. I will directly drop
Speaker 1: this episode in there. Um And yeah, Super Punch is back.
Speaker 1: You can watch it every night Monday through Friday, hosting
Speaker 1: it and on Thursdays you can catch me on Rooster
Speaker 1: Teeth with Fiona Nova f and around with if Fiona
Speaker 1: and uh yeah, what do you you got anything coming up? Danny?
Speaker 1: Um Oh, I've just been sharing, you know, Follow me
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram at miss Danny Fernandez. It's M S,
Speaker 1: D A, N I F R and and easy I
Speaker 1: post when I'm doing streams and and whatnot. And um
Speaker 1: wanted to give a shout out, of course to our
Speaker 1: super producer Joel Monique for setting this up with Karen
Speaker 1: and also engineer Zach McKeever for constantly working with me
Speaker 1: to make my mic sound better. I'm trying. Oh, I
Speaker 1: did want to say, but almost forgot. Yeah. It was
Speaker 1: just announced, uh last week. But in next month sci
Speaker 1: Fi is the Great Debate, which is going to be
Speaker 1: featuring yours truly, Danny Fernandez, and you know I pop
Speaker 1: in there a few times. But yeah, it's gonna be
Speaker 1: a great show. It'll be on sci Fi. You can
Speaker 1: watch it, uh, and you can and see if you
Speaker 1: can notice when we were filming before and after, I
Speaker 1: was in both of those. I was in an episode
Speaker 1: before the pandemic and then the day it was announced
Speaker 1: that we like had a shelter in place. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was the day before it was announced. Yeah, yeah, that
Speaker 1: was It was a wild time. Uh. But yeah, so
Speaker 1: definitely check it out. It's a great show, both versions
Speaker 1: of it, uh, and it's a fun time. We'll probably
Speaker 1: have to have t J on here sometime. But as
Speaker 1: we always say, stay stay nerdy, and stay healthy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's what we should say this month. Stay healthy,