1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: My next guest comics Drip. But Cathew is indicated over 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: one thousand newspapers, and she is a very perceptible observer 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: of the male female relationships in our life. Would you 4 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: welcome Cathy guys white um as opposed to Johnny here, 5 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: who I saw the man all getting ready backstage, and 6 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: you know, they sit down, poof while I'm sitting there 7 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: in my forty five minutes, they sit down, poof, one 8 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: poof of powder and you're done, You're out of there. 9 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: You know, a woman, if it takes me twenty minutes 10 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: to dry my hair and it takes the man two minutes, 11 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: well he's already eighteen minutes ahead for the day. And 12 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: if it takes me fifteen minutes to do the makeup 13 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: and it takes the man zero minutes, now he's thirty 14 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: three minutes ahead seven thirty in the morning, he's already 15 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: got thirty three minutes on me. And so you start 16 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,279 Speaker 1: multiplying this out day by day, week by week, month 17 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: by month. I figured by the end of the year, 18 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: a man has two and a half months of free 19 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: time that the woman has not had. Are a slight 20 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: undercurrent of resentment of jealous Well, I think most women 21 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: would just want to know from you the you know, 22 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: the perfect man. Why it is that? Why is that 23 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: if a man has this excess of time in a year, 24 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: then he cannot find three minutes, you know, to tell 25 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: us how wonderful we are. This is Kathy guys White, 26 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: creator of the Caffey comics in the nineteen eighties, making 27 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: Johnny Carson laugh his ass off. This may not be 28 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: how you would expect to hear her sound in this clip. 29 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: She is confident, she's funny, she is very Western beauty standards, thin, 30 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: she's wearing stylish clothes, and these are not necessarily qualities 31 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: we would associate with the Queen of So here's what 32 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: I need you to understand, and I need you to 33 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: really listen, because she's not going to tell you this herself. 34 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: Athy guys White is very fucking cool. I have all 35 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: kinds of questions about what it's like to be It 36 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: occurred to me that you are exactly two years older 37 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: then I was when I started the strip. So I'm 38 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: trying to remember my mindset when I was two years 39 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: into doing the comic strip and what what life was 40 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: like for me. And I think it's like ten tho 41 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: years difference a wife for you, This is Kathy guys 42 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: White on the phone with me in California. Kathy guys 43 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: White is not Kathy the character, although you could be 44 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: excused for assuming so. People get confused around their most 45 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: iconic characters quite a bit, especially when those characters are 46 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: named after them. Donna Reid will always be more closely 47 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: associated with the psi op nineteen fifties housewife than the 48 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: high powered Hollywood actor producer calling a lot of the 49 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: shots in her own career, she actually was Mary. Kate 50 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: and Nashley Olsen had a ba jillion dollar empire bill 51 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: upon carefully constructed versions of children they actually were not. 52 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: This phenomenon is the reason that a large swath of 53 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: the population thinks that Raven Simone can literally read their mind. 54 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: But when I was getting this podcast together, I was 55 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: finding a lot of people were surprised that Kathy, a 56 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: newspaper comic strip about to summarize a very stressed out 57 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 1: woman who says ac was actually created and illustrated by 58 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: a woman named Kathy. And that's because when Kathy, both 59 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: the artist and the actual character came into the newspapers, 60 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: she was the first female protagonist in the daily Funny 61 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: Pages who was written by a woman, And today we're 62 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: going to learn how that came to be and all 63 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: of the problems that came with it. Later in the series, 64 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: we'll be taking a look at the women who laid 65 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: the groundwork for her career. Because Kathy Geiswhite did not 66 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: come out of nowhere entirely. There had been women working 67 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: in the funny pages and comics in general before she 68 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: arrived whose presence didn't draw as much attention as Kathy's did, 69 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: And we'll also be talking about creators who came after her. 70 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: But by the time the Kathy comic debut in papers 71 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy six, the Universal Press Syndicate, one of 72 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: the leading funny page distributors at the time, was desperate 73 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,559 Speaker 1: for a comic that was about a woman's experience. After 74 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: the early to mid nineteen seventies brought one of the 75 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: largest and most impactful women's rights movements in the history 76 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,239 Speaker 1: of the United States. Here's Kathy speaking with me about 77 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: how she first got the gig as a completely untrained 78 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: artist in her twenties. So I always kept a journal 79 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: um about my my romantic misery and how bad I 80 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: felt about my way and one night, I one night 81 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: I just m, I just do a scribbled picture of 82 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: what I look like eating everything in the kitchen while 83 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: I'm waiting for the founder ring that never rang, and 84 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: um the scribbled picture, and then I drew another picture 85 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: of what I might look like, you know, if he 86 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: called them and laanted to come over, and then that 87 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 1: It was kind of like a two part scribbled picture, 88 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: and it was It just made me feel so much 89 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: better to see myself in picture for him. Suddenly it 90 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: was funny. Not I mean, it was pitiful, but it 91 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 1: was funny pitiful to see it in on on the page. 92 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: And so for a period of time, instead of just 93 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: writing the same sad thing in my diary every night, 94 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: I would drew a picture of the kind of the 95 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: worst of my day or the worst of my relationship moments. 96 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: I sent these very private, very personal cartoons to mom, 97 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: Okay and me in with letters. And it was my 98 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: mom who said, oh this, you know, after all those 99 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: years of teaching me to keep my feelings private, she said, well, 100 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: this could be a comic strip for millions of people 101 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: to enjoy. I certainly knew nothing about comic strips, but 102 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: mom uh went to the variously research comic strip syndicate. 103 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: She typed me a list of who she thought I 104 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: should approach in the order I should approach them, And 105 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: so to make her not do that, I sent a 106 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: group of these two the name at the top of 107 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: her list, just one name, which was Universal Presndicate. So 108 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: that's how the comic strip started. Was your mom the 109 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: only one seeing them? Or that you were kind of 110 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: interesting with them before? Yes? Oh yes, no, I wouldn't 111 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: have said nothing. I would ever show anybody. Wow. And 112 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: then there was a big and then there was a 113 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: big discussion when the comic strip Syndicate wrote me back 114 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: right away. I think never in history has a commercial 115 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: syndicate like sent a contract out so fast. But they said, 116 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: this was six and the world had was in this 117 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: massive shift for women and men, I mean, the arguments 118 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: between the sexiest. It was like, you can't even comprehend 119 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 1: what this time was like between men and women, and 120 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: everybody was at each other's throats during this time. And 121 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: they the syndicate said, well, you know that they had 122 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: really been hoping to find a comic strip that dealt 123 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: with how the world was changing for women. But that 124 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: all the strips they had seen had been, of course 125 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: drawn by men. And they said that they didn't really 126 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: have an emotional um honestly, that they felt I did, 127 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: and that they said they would. They said they were 128 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: confident that I could learn how to draw if I 129 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: had to do it three and sixty or five days 130 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: a year. Pretty fucking cool, right, So, even though the 131 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: foundation had been laid by other women for this to 132 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: happen in this industry, the choice of the Kathy character, 133 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: a woman who is open to, but not completely sold on, 134 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: progressive feminism, seemed pretty deliberate. So let's learn about her. 135 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: It's Kathy guys White day on accast. She passed into 136 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: the world, not in seventy six. She's at what, She's 137 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: out on dates and she don't like politics from mama 138 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: and herban too with feminist friends. She's fighting all the 139 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: stands with chocolate and head. Kathy, She's fighting back to 140 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: stress with success. Let's go slack, oh, Catherine bathyn Cafe. 141 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: She's got a luck, go in all. Kathy guys White 142 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 1: was born on September five in Dayton, Ohio, and was 143 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: raised with her two sisters, Mickey and Marianne. Her father 144 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: worked in advertising and eventually got Kathy the gig she'd 145 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: hold before becoming a famous comic strip artist in the seventies. 146 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: And her mom, like many women of the Silent Generation, 147 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: although this definitely varies considerably by race and class, her 148 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: mom stayed at home and Guys White will become the 149 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 1: inspiration for the Mom character in the Kathy comic and 150 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: is typically characterized as overbearing. She's constantly worrying about Kathy, 151 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: her marital status, her biological clock, and occasionally she'll start 152 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: small businesses with her friend Flow. The real and Guys 153 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: White is much more complicated and interesting. Right now, she 154 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: is nine years old, living in Florida and kicking. The 155 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: last time I spoke with Kathy, they were in Florida 156 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: together doing yoga classes on Zoom and preparing for Kathy's 157 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: daughter's wedding. Here's Kathy telling me about her mom. Um. 158 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: My mom was born in a tiny, remote village in 159 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: the Slovakian Booneys, and she immigrated to the United States 160 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: with her mom when she was three. Um she grew 161 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 1: up in a in an immigrant community and Cleveland. I 162 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: think my mom didn't speak English, so she family learned 163 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: in kindergarten, but her mom spoke English but never learned. 164 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: Her mom never learned to read or write. It was 165 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 1: kind of shocking to me to realize that, and realized 166 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 1: that that's, you know, that's just such a one little 167 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 1: generation away from opportunities that I had. But my mom 168 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: grew up at a My mom went to college. Um, 169 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: she got a little scholarship to go to college at 170 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,199 Speaker 1: the at the urging of one of her high school teachers. 171 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: Nobody in my mom's family, no girl had ever gone 172 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: to college, so it was a great big deal. And um, 173 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: the relatives were angry that the woman's place was to 174 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: stay in the family and help out. And you know, 175 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: Mom was going to go to college. She got a 176 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: journalism degree. After college, her boyfriend, my dad went to war, 177 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: and Mom worked as a as a writer and loved, 178 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: I will say loved working. She like she's ninety nine now. 179 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: She lights up when she talks about having her career 180 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: and her work, which was ended, of course, when my 181 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: dad came home from the war and got they got married, 182 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 1: and then it was time for the women to not 183 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: be working anymore. I came along shortly after. And then 184 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: when my dad was trying to get a job in 185 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,839 Speaker 1: a in an advertising agency, and my mom was the 186 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: one who knew how to do that, so she, you know, 187 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: she she hoped him write the things that got him 188 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: the job. She who would bring the assignments home every night. 189 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,719 Speaker 1: For a long time, she did his work for him. 190 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: And then he, you know, he elevated and he did 191 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: very well in advertising, but he was trained. Mom. Mom 192 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: was the rock that started that. And along the way, 193 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,599 Speaker 1: she got a master's degree that she never mentioned to 194 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: any of us until a few years ago, and I said, well, 195 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: where's the certificate? You know were why didn't you tell us? 196 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: You know? She just said, I didn't need everybody to know. 197 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: I knew that I earned it. But she's also a 198 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,719 Speaker 1: product of a generation where women didn't really have a 199 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: say in very much at all, where the men were 200 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: the men were the loss of the universe. So Cathy 201 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: and her sisters grew up in this environment, in a 202 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: home where Mom taught dad how to do his job 203 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,599 Speaker 1: and no one was really allowed to talk about it. 204 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: She told me that she wasn't encouraged to think about 205 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: what she wanted to be when she grew up very often, 206 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: but she did think about it on her own in 207 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: the fifties and sixties as a kid. She then went 208 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: to the University of Michigan at ann Arbor, where she 209 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,319 Speaker 1: majored in Well, she'll tell you what, what did pique 210 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: your interest, even if that wasn't kind of what you 211 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: were what you were studying a boy named Dave. I 212 00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: was good. She was a boy named Dave. And the 213 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: grill the con rolls at the at this coffee shop 214 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: where I worked. So that's I gained a lot of 215 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: weight in college stalking Dave and eating grilled the con roles. Well, 216 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: I tried to make money. Okay, So Cathy says she 217 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 1: majors in stalking a guy named Dave, But it is 218 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:21,079 Speaker 1: my journalistic compulsion to tell you she actually majored in English. 219 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: And this was between the late nineteen sixties in the 220 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: early nineteen seventies when the women's liberation movement in the 221 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: United States was really starting to take off, and by 222 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: the time Cathy graduated in nineteen seventy two, the movement 223 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: was at its peak. So, as a young woman, where 224 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: was Kathy on women's issues at this time? I'm going 225 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: to say, at first, I was kind of oblivious to 226 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: it in the in when I started college. There was 227 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: such a transformation during the time that I was in college, 228 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 1: there was such a opening of minds where were all 229 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: dressing in the uniform of these beautiful, liberating blue James. 230 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: Men and women were the same ones, the same style, 231 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: six same cuts. They kind of opened up the world. 232 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,719 Speaker 1: And I think that that, um, you know, I think 233 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 1: for me it was a gradual awareness of of a 234 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: different world for women than the one I had grown 235 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: up expecting. And my mom, who is just a remarkable 236 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: traditionalist and feminist at the same time, she would cheer 237 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: me on to do, be, do and be everything that 238 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: she hadn't had a chance to do. But she also 239 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: said things to me like, when you play tennis, you know, 240 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: always let the boy win because it's just more complicated. 241 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: If you win, you'll know that you're better. You know 242 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: you knew, you'll know if you could have won, and 243 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: that's all you need to know. A lot of the 244 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: first trips I was writing, I was writing from living 245 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: at a time when literally boys would not go out 246 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: with you if you made more money than they did, 247 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: or if they thought you had career aspirations. At the 248 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: University of Michigan, where she also meets classmate Laurence Caston, 249 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: who most famously went on to write some Star Wars 250 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: movies and The Big Chill. They remain friends to this day, 251 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: to the point where Kathy had her character go and 252 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: praised The Big Chill when it came out in to 253 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: support her friend's success. We love Kathy. It's while she's 254 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: in college that Kathy's issues with food, a thing that 255 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: comes up in the Kathy comics constantly, really solidifies as 256 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: a part of her life. Kathy finished college taking advertising courses, 257 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: and upon doing so, started working at the ad firm 258 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: that her father worked at in the early nineteen seventies. 259 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: And there is a lot to say about how women 260 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: and people of color were treated in the workplace at 261 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: this time, and will be devoting quite a bit of 262 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: time to it later in this show. But I wanted 263 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: to know how Kathy was treated in this position starting 264 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: in her early twenties. She said this. You know, it 265 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: was years later when looking back that I would say, 266 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: I realized, you know, the hierarchy at the office and 267 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: how it was not exactly pro women. But at the time, 268 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: you know, at the time, I was thrilled to be working. 269 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: I was thrilled to have a job. I didn't. Um, 270 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: I was not, uh, you know, harassed by anybody. Um 271 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: I was. I was just I was excited to be there. 272 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: I was thrilled to be there, and and I worked. 273 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: I worked really hard. I worked all day every day, 274 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: and then I always took work home with me and 275 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: worked in the night unless I was stalking somebody somebody else, 276 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: Dave was over there. So this is something that has 277 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: come up for me a lot interviewing women of this 278 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: generation about how they were treated at work and at home. 279 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: In a lot of cases, at first they'll be like, oh, 280 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: it was great, it was just great to have a 281 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: job at all, and then a few minutes later the 282 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: tone will switch a little too. There was this one time, 283 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: and that's what I was finding with Kathy as well. 284 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: It was great having a job and being in the 285 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: workplace at all, but yes, the environment wasn't exactly pro women. 286 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: In spite of this, Kathy worked her way up in 287 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: the company pretty quickly, and just a few years later 288 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: she had reached the managerial level. Pretty impressive stuff, but 289 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: she wasn't happy with her life in spite of this 290 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: professional success. Sound like a little cartoon. We know we're 291 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: getting there, and it's here in Cathy's life where the 292 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: genesis of the Kathy cartoons starts to take place, and 293 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: where one of the most rehearsed stories of her public 294 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: life comes into play. Kathy told me this story over 295 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: the phone, but over the last forty years she's told 296 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: different versions of it on late night TV and interviews 297 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: and in her book with very little deviation. Had absolutely 298 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: miserable love life. So I felt horrible about how I looked, 299 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: and I felt horll that nobody loved me. In some 300 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: versions of this story told over the years, Cathy's mom 301 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: threatens to send in a cover letter with her daughter's 302 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: comics herself. But that is essentially how it went. Bill Baker, 303 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: and assistant executive director at the Detroit Free Press, told 304 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: the paper in why he decided to pick the strip 305 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: up in nineteen seventy six. We made the decision fairly 306 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 1: quickly to carry Cathy. It was of good quality. The 307 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: gag and stories were all well conceived and well executed, 308 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: and it appealed to an important and growing segment of 309 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: young people who were starting out independent life. However, in 310 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: the summer of nine eighty. That same Bill Baker and 311 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: other editors at the Detroit Free Press discontinued this strip 312 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: due to, as Baker put it, indications that it was 313 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 1: becoming repetitive and cool and not as interesting. When this happened, 314 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: the readers of the Detroit Free Press were not having it. 315 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: There were seven hundred letters, a ton of phone calls, 316 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: and even some in person objectors who came to the 317 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: paper to complain to editors, until the executive editor, David 318 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: Lawrence Jr. Wrote in the paper, okay you when Kathy 319 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: will be back. One of the more interesting parts of 320 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: the Kathy Lord to me is that she came in 321 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,199 Speaker 1: as a pretty untrained artist. And there are a lot 322 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 1: of famous cartoonists who didn't have formal training at the 323 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: time of their first syndicated comic strip. Scott Adams of 324 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: Dilbert Fame, Aaron McGruder of the Boondocks, and old school 325 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: comics gods like Jack Kirby all come to mind, and 326 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: Kathy is very much in their ranks. You can actually 327 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 1: kind of see her figuring out her illustration style in 328 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: real time over the course of the first several years 329 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: of the comic. As time goes on, Kathy's surroundings become 330 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 1: more distinct. Previously kind of nameless characters start to develop 331 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: their own personalities and stories and looks, and the Cathy 332 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 1: character herself transforms from a twentysomething with really stringy hair 333 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: and a long sleeve shirt with a heart on it 334 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: with no other outfits into a distinctive character who can 335 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: wear any hairstyle or outfit and still look like Kathy. 336 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: Here's what happened when the first comic strip came out 337 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: back in November. You know, it was maybe it was 338 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: a few months after I signed up with them, that 339 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: the comic strip was launching in the paper. And I 340 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: never told anybody that it was coming. It's just the 341 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: day that, you know, the day came when it appeared 342 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 1: in the paper, and um and pretty much I had 343 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: that day in the ladies room at the office, because 344 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: I was working in an office filled with artists who 345 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: would ridicule the artwork. You know, I had worked very 346 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: hard at that point to really, um present myself as 347 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: a you know, a self respecting, strong, you know, confidant 348 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: work woman, and my comic strips were the essence of vulnerability. 349 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: And this brings us to a question that has dogged 350 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: Kathy guys White for the majority of her adult life. 351 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: If she didn't want to be associated with her comics 352 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: so directly, why name it after herself. The short answer 353 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: is that she didn't want to name it after herself, 354 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: As is often the case for a new voice, Kathy 355 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: was partially given the gig in order to represent not 356 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: just herself but to an extent, her entire gender. But 357 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 1: the comic Trip had convinced me to name the main 358 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 1: character Kathy, which I had not wanted to do. Men 359 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: get the men get the protective shield around them a 360 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: lot more another and the other also the protective shield 361 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: of not being um presumed to be egomaniacs, you know, 362 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: if they're writing about themselves. And that was that's that. 363 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: I disliked that more than anything, because I felt like 364 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: a comic strip named Kathy by Kathy Guys who I 365 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: sounded like the ego Trip of the universe. And it 366 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: was the exact opposite that I mean. It was. It 367 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: was created from the place of the most my deepest insecurities. 368 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: For the first year of the comic, Kathy remained at 369 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: her office job at the ad Agency, but when it 370 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 1: became clear that the comic was going to be very successful. 371 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: She eventually left and began to work from home, even 372 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,400 Speaker 1: as the comic was really starting to take off. These 373 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: first few years of cartooning sounded pretty isolating for her. 374 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: She was working alone, planning the strip out a few 375 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: weeks in advance, and teaching herself how to draw in 376 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: real time. The comic originally debuted in about fifty papers, 377 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: but syndication increased to two fifty papers by the early eighties. 378 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: The comics primary audience was, no surprise, young adult women 379 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: between eighteen and forty, as well as those readers mothers. 380 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: Kathy was well aware of her demographic, confirming in a 381 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: Chicago Tribune profile, Kathy is a fairly unique cartoon character 382 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,640 Speaker 1: in that she has aimed totally at the adult woman. 383 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: Kathy became a more self assured media personality in the eighties, 384 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: but early interviews with her sounded a little more like this. 385 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 1: This is coming from the Detroit Free Press the week 386 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: the comic became syndicated in November seventy. People ask me 387 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: why Kathy spends so much time thinking about guys. It's 388 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: because I think no matter how successful woman gets, the 389 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: man in her life is still the most important thing. 390 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: Uh there's moments in this story where you have no 391 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: choice but to just be like Kathy uh ac truly ack. 392 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: But even present day Kathy cringes at the cathy of 393 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: this time. Here we are talking about this exact clip 394 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: unbeknownst to me a couple of weeks ago, when she 395 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: was in Florida with her mom. It's just like I 396 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: was looking through this mom house of course, reams of 397 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: scrapbook things on me, and I was I'm trying to 398 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: help her get organized, and I happened upon this article 399 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: with the big call out quote like made me want 400 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: to die. The big call out quote was, you know, 401 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: no matter what else a woman does, having a man 402 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: in her life is the most important thing that is. 403 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: That was a quote from me. Apparently this was like 404 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: in the late seventies, early eighties, and I read that now. 405 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: I mean it, truly, it's like reading your diary that 406 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: I just want to throw up our burner, you know, 407 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: or stump it out. But there it is in bold print. 408 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: This was the call out in the article that I 409 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: was probably proud of it at that time. I don't 410 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: know what to tell you except that's that's who I 411 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: was back then. That's who when the strip started at 412 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: least asked who a lot of women were. I mean, 413 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: it's a strip evolved. I hope people will will have 414 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: some compassion for the fact that Kathy sort of evolved 415 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: a bit and that she was not always a whimp. 416 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 1: But this was very much the role that Kathy filled 417 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: in the cartooning industry at this time. Her presence in 418 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: the pages indicated progress, but she wasn't necessarily launching the 419 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 1: radical feminist missives that other artists were in the late 420 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: nineties seventies with collections like Women's Comics and it Ain't 421 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: Me Babe. Those collections explored feminism, explicit sex, and queerness 422 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 1: as the rule, not the exception. More on that in 423 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: a future episode. But in her space, Kathy was singular. 424 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: She was the only woman spotlighted in a special that 425 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: aired on CBS called The Fantastic Funnies, hosted by Lonnie 426 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 1: Anderson and featuring creators from the most popular comic strips 427 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 1: of the day. In this clip, she is twenty something 428 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 1: with a gen Z middle park going, and she's wearing 429 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: an outfit that looks very much like the first iteration 430 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: of the Kathy character. She's slimmer with long hair and 431 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: a red long sleeve shirt with a heart, and she's 432 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 1: in her Michigan studio. Since comic strips have always reflected 433 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: the changing American scene for the past eighty five years, 434 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 1: it is significant that one of the newest comic strips, Kathy, 435 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: is one woman's look at her contemporary scene. But Kathy 436 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 1: guys White didn't start off to be a cartoonist. One night, 437 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: instead of writing in my journal about my problems, I 438 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 1: for some reason drew a picture of what my problems 439 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: look like. And when I saw them in a picture, 440 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: it was it was completely new experience for me. Suddenly 441 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: the things that seemed so tragic seemed funny to me. 442 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: How about if I put down that my goal is 443 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,959 Speaker 1: to be the president of a major corporation and make 444 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: a hundred thousand dollars a year. I thought you wanted 445 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: to get married and live in a little white house 446 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 1: with two cute kids. That's my goal too. I want everything, Andrea, 447 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do at all. All I need now is 448 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: a job in a date. In these early years, Kathy's 449 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: mentor in the industry was none other than Charles Schultz, 450 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 1: whose Peanuts comic strips had been running successfully since nineteen 451 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: fifty and grown into a television and licensing empire that 452 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 1: still exists today twenty years after his death. Schultz was 453 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: instrumental in legitimizing and elevating Kathy's work, early on, writing 454 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: the introduction to collections of Kathy Comics in the eighties. 455 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: To introduce the Kathy Chronicles, he writes this, to Kathy's 456 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: I suppose we could all use a couple of Kathy's 457 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: in our lives. The Kathy and Kathy Guy's White strip 458 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 1: is not really the Kathy Guys White. I know I 459 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: can tell them apart with no trouble at all. The 460 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: comic strip Kathy points out for us just how much 461 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: trouble life is for a young working girl. She shrieks 462 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 1: in agony, laughs with delight, and works very hard. I 463 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: don't know if Kathy Guys White ever shrieks in agony, 464 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 1: but I know she laughs easily and it works very hard. 465 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 1: It's not really difficult, in spite of what you may 466 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: have heard, to draw a comic strip every day, but 467 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: it is very, very difficult to make it better and better. 468 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: And this is what Kathy Guys might has been doing. 469 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: Kathy gets better every day. I like having too Kathy's 470 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 1: in my life. I read a little bit about how 471 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,360 Speaker 1: supportive that Charles Shu was to you during that time. 472 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: Could you tell me a little bit about that and 473 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: about your relationship with him and how that friendship form. 474 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: He came to early on in this strip, I was 475 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: invited to come give a talk as a new cartoonist 476 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: to to a group in San Francisco, and he came. Um, 477 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: he lived at Santa Rose. He came to hear my talk, 478 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: which was a great big deal because he didn't like 479 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: to leave his house. Um. So that was the first 480 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: day I met him, and he was He is legendary 481 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: for being very supportive of other cartoonists, all cartoonists, but 482 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: he was extremely so port of to me. I think 483 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: he felt, uh, you know, residence with the kind of 484 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: writing I was doing. He was absolutely appalled by man 485 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: by my artwork and he um, he gave me drawing lessons. 486 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: I have some I have some sessions where he would 487 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: sit down and he would say, this is how you 488 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: show somebody walking, you know, and he have little drawings 489 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,719 Speaker 1: where it looks like Kathy on the top, and then 490 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: it would be like chart like Charlie Brown, legs and feet, 491 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: you know, walking across the page. After a few years 492 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: of working successfully in comics, Kathy moved to southern California, 493 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: Santa Barbara and later Los Angeles in late nine and 494 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: she lives in the area to this day. I was 495 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: surprised to learn in those early years and now that 496 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: she didn't communicate with or consume the other comic strips 497 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: in the paper outside of Charles Schultz's work very often. 498 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: She was too busy, and artists at that time generally 499 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: only saw each other about a year. At the National 500 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: Cartoonist Society's prestigious Ruben Awards ceremony in the late nineteen seventies, 501 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: there were very few women at these events. The comics 502 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: pages were absolutely dominated by straight white American men. So 503 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: here's how Cathy described the culture among comic artists at 504 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: that time in the beginning, that it was a it's 505 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: a very male group, uh and very um I'm gonna 506 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: say male chauvinistic group starting out. But they were just uh, 507 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: I never had anything but massive support and love and 508 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: you know, kind of cheering me on. I mean, all 509 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: all cartoonists are, you know, facing the same monster every 510 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: day of the blank paper. And that's a bomb that 511 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: goes deep and it kind of wipes away any other 512 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: differences you might have. But I cannot stress to you 513 00:30:54,960 --> 00:31:00,040 Speaker 1: enough that it was these the the national cart in 514 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: a society was like amazingly supportive. They were delighted to 515 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: have women in their midst. They were delighted to have 516 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: a female voices. They were they were, um, you know, 517 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: proud of anybody, you know, being able to assustain you know, 518 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: themselves on the newspaper page, and they were This was 519 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: such was it was from still defending them because because 520 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: I love these guys. I love these wonderful men, and 521 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: looked they were like from many of them were more 522 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: like my dad's generation. And I got that, you know, 523 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: I got that there they grew up at a different time, 524 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: and this was they had a different way of paying tribute. Again, 525 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: this brought up the pattern I was describing before. How 526 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: many women start telling me that it was a very 527 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: different time and that the values were different, and that 528 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: the men in their midst were generally coming from a 529 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: good place. And then a few minutes later, something else 530 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: will come up, a story with a little more detail 531 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: and something that clarifies what growing up at a very 532 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: different time means in practice. In Cathy's case, at this 533 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: point in her career, I had read an anecdote in 534 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: a profile by Rachel Sime about something that had happened 535 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: at one of the National Cartoonist Society gatherings that involves 536 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: her and a handful of other women in the industry 537 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: at the time, including Lynn Johnston of For Better or 538 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: for Worse Fame interested you know, she Okay, there was 539 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: there was one year early on when this lovely group 540 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: of very supportive men declared at the Year of the 541 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: Woman Cartoonist. And it was it wasn't honor thing, It 542 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: wasn't a big graving thing. It was an honor. But 543 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,479 Speaker 1: I'm going to say it was an honor in um 544 00:32:54,400 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: I um in a product like a little a bit 545 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: oblivious way. So they did have a skirt up in 546 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: front the women who were doing comic strips. They did 547 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,719 Speaker 1: have a skirt up in front of everybody, and they 548 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: did place banners on us that said woman Cartoonists. So 549 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: I don't god, okay, it was at the time, it 550 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: never occurred to me to be offended by that, because 551 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: I had received such massive support from this group of cartoonists, 552 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: I mean wonderful support. And I saw that as just 553 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: and when somebody asked me about it afterwards, I just 554 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: laughed and I said, well, you know, it was just 555 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: like they're awkward way of trying to honor the women 556 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: who are cartoonists. Amazing men can do anything. Gary Trudeau, 557 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: the creator of the Pulitzer Prize winning Dunesbury comic strip, 558 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: is said to have walked out of the pageant king 559 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: behavior but more troubling than the fumbling, clueless men of 560 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 1: the funny pages of this era, Cathy told me was 561 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: getting her comic distributed by a nearly all male advertising department. 562 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: The content of what they were trying to sell was 563 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 1: so different. I mean, my artwork was so cryptic, and 564 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: the nobody, nobody was writing female characters, you know, talking 565 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: about the things that I was talking about at that time, 566 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: and they I was told it took a lot of 567 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: convincing for the salespeople to take it out on the 568 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: road and then they would face the male editors at 569 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: the newspapers. And years later, the salespeople, some of them 570 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: told me that they used to just like take uh, 571 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of weeks of work that they 572 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,359 Speaker 1: were supposed to show, and they would just cut out 573 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: a couple that they could stand to show to the 574 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: newspaper editors, and then they would try to make a 575 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: case for the strip based on those and not, you know, 576 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: not really show the other things. This was one of 577 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: the factors that motivated Cathy to not only begin to 578 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: merchandise her character, but to take control of the merchandizing herself. 579 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: There were several comic strip characters who had built licensing empires, 580 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 1: most notably Peanuts, but also think Garfield by Jim Davis, 581 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: Think Dennis the Menace, Think Popeye, think Archie. There was 582 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,760 Speaker 1: already a huge precedent for success outside of the funny pages, 583 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: but Cathy's experience working with male ad execs made it 584 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: clear that she'd need to be intimately involved in the 585 00:35:43,760 --> 00:36:00,879 Speaker 1: process in order for it to be successful. She began 586 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: her merchandising company in the early eighties, thereby taking on 587 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: her second full time job as CEO of a licensing 588 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 1: company on top of continuing to turn out daily comic strips. 589 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: The two well the two big licensing forces were Charles Schultz, 590 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: who had of course a licensing empire, and Jim Davis 591 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 1: who created Garfield, and he had a licensing empire, and 592 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: I saw no reason why a female cartoonist couldn't have 593 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 1: a licensing empire, especially because you know, we love to shop. 594 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: Women love to shop, and there we go. But I 595 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 1: spent decades trying to make a work there. I know 596 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,360 Speaker 1: that you you were extremely um involved on top of 597 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,800 Speaker 1: doing the daily comic strip. What was that balance like 598 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 1: for you over the years? Um, I yeah, it was. 599 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: That was hard, I got it just was a lot. 600 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,359 Speaker 1: I mean I eventually had to have an office full 601 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: of people who also worked on the licensing, who were 602 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: did sale, some marketing and all of that. Eventually had 603 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: to have some people helped draw the merchandise. Oh boy, 604 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: there's so much of that. I would not have done 605 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,320 Speaker 1: if I had it to do over again. And it 606 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: was in the early eighties that Cathy's popularity really exploded. 607 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: Even if you weren't a daily follower of the comic strip, 608 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 1: the image of the stressed out career woman could be 609 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: found basically anywhere you turned, and she was covered by 610 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: the press a lot. Cathy herself was often framed as 611 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,800 Speaker 1: the extension of the character, or sometimes a contradiction of it. 612 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: Considering her success, Pathy said this to the Detroit Free Press, 613 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: I'm self confident and insecure to the same degree. I 614 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: know exactly what i want to do and how to 615 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: do it, and I'm confident of my abilities to do it. 616 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 1: And at the same time, I'm not sure what i 617 00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: want to do and I doubt my abilities. But sometimes 618 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: journalists would point out that the problems that Kathy wrote 619 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 1: about in the comic might not be actual problems she 620 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: had in real life. But Kathy is extremely consistent in 621 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 1: her public PERSONA piece by Sue Chastain and the Philadelphia 622 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 1: Inquirer sums it up perfectly. Kathy says this, if I 623 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: concentrate on one area of my life, the rest of 624 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 1: it automatically deteriorates. I can have clean closets, but then 625 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 1: that's it. I'll be behind in work, I'll have ignored 626 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: all my friends and relationships, and I'll be bouncing tracks 627 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,760 Speaker 1: all over town. The writer comments immediately after this, Actually 628 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 1: it isn't all that bad for the thirty three year 629 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: old guy's wife, one of only four women with syndicated strips, 630 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 1: with Kathy now appearing in three hundred fifty newspapers. She 631 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: reportedly takes in more than a hundred thousand a year 632 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 1: from syndication alone. Chastain continues later in the piece, the 633 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,240 Speaker 1: income enabled her to buy a two door style house, 634 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: Guy White says, two puny bedrooms, one puny living room, 635 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,879 Speaker 1: one puny kitchen, one great attic in Santa Barbara, California, 636 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,439 Speaker 1: three years ago. Still, it's not in guys White's best 637 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: interest to let success blind her to her neuroses. They do, 638 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 1: after all, provide her material. What does come out is 639 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,320 Speaker 1: a humbleness that, in context may seem to deflect the 640 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 1: privileged status that her work attained her. And again, this 641 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 1: was not an uncommon thing for successful women to do 642 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 1: at this time, particularly by the nineteen eighties, when a 643 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: massive cultural backlash to the women's liberation movement of the 644 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 1: seventies resulted in a more generally chastened cultural attitude on 645 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: women's success in the American capitalist structure. Either way, Cathy's 646 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 1: public persona only served to boost the merchandise's popularity. Her 647 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: work appeared taped up in offices, on coffee mugs, on 648 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: oversized exercise t shirts. At different points in time, Cathy 649 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 1: did commercials for mcdowe donald's salad which is as gross 650 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: as it sounds, or McDonald's salads. Kathy, she's young, on 651 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: the goal, has it all together, no time in her 652 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: busy schedule. Ring, please Ring. But there's one thing she 653 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: really loves. McDonald's fresh cross salads get loaded with fresh 654 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: vegetables from loads of taste. Yeah, I'll take the Caesars. 655 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,760 Speaker 1: The peppercorn decisions are no problem. She'll take the caesar. 656 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: Thanks Mom. She did a commercial for J. C. Penny 657 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: Get up early to power Walker power Jogs, but I'll 658 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: be into JP Penny after Thanksgiving Phillis seven a m. Friday. 659 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 1: She did one for Knudson Yogurt Ken a woman who 660 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,840 Speaker 1: would sleep toward ten mile John her workout and beauty treatment. 661 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 1: Get up for the rich, delicious treat of nuts and 662 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:54,439 Speaker 1: cow seventy yogurt. She did one for Betty Crocker Cake 663 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: Lovers Collection AC introducing Cake Lover's Collection how could you 664 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,840 Speaker 1: We talk of? And then a cake mixed with a 665 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 1: big pouch of juicy carrots and slump raisins. And a 666 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: lot of this TV ad success was brought on by 667 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: the existing success of these eighties merchandizing efforts. Kathy is 668 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 1: liberated sort of, but Kathy lax hutspah, Kathy, Kathy, Kathy. 669 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: What Kathy doesn't lack is exposure. This is Peggy Lander's 670 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: talking about the Kathy character in the South Florida Sentinel. 671 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:34,719 Speaker 1: In advertising the release of the first Kathy Ragdall. She 672 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,800 Speaker 1: mentioned in her piece the existence of Kathy soap, Kathy 673 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 1: coffee mugs, Cathy beach towels, greeting cards, stationary placed mats, potholders, 674 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: toad facs, cookie jars, and clothes hell. There was an 675 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: entire Goddamn Cathy boutique at Neiman Marcus stores across the 676 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 1: United States in the eighties. This was a whole thing, 677 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,840 Speaker 1: and all of this merchandise was marketed at adult women. 678 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 1: Kathy ran the company and also brought on one of 679 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 1: her sisters to help her do so. As the character 680 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: became more and more recognizable, Cathy guys White herself began 681 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 1: to appear on late night shows. She became a semi 682 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 1: regular guest on Johnny Carson and would usually discuss topics 683 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,719 Speaker 1: similar to the ones she explored in the comic. Here's 684 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,240 Speaker 1: a clip of her on Jay Leno, Do you always 685 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 1: have like a couple of bathing suit things, peaks of 686 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,920 Speaker 1: baiting suit things. Well, women have two main figure problem 687 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 1: areas the top half of our bodies and the bottom 688 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 1: half of our bottom. And every year the fashion industry 689 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 1: finds a way to make things worse. You know, it 690 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 1: used to be that a woman could depend on a 691 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 1: one piece suit, which at least covered more. And now 692 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,239 Speaker 1: the one piece suits that they have out there, I'm 693 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 1: sure the women in this audience have had that experience. 694 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: If you pull them up high enough to cover the top, 695 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: then the lengthhold comes up to the waist and the 696 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:56,280 Speaker 1: entire rear end is on display. As the licensing empire 697 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: grew in the nineteen eighties, so did the comic and 698 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:03,359 Speaker 1: creator's popularity. The South Florida Sentinel quotes Kathy guys Wide 699 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,399 Speaker 1: commenting on how the comic changed alongside herself during its 700 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,840 Speaker 1: first six years in print. Kathy tells the paper, I 701 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,319 Speaker 1: have expanded my thinking quite a bit in the past 702 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,440 Speaker 1: few years, and so is she. She spends most of 703 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 1: her time at work now and her biggest problem is 704 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,359 Speaker 1: trying to find a balance between home life and work. 705 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,799 Speaker 1: Although she's still vulnerable, she speaks, her mind goes out 706 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 1: with different people. She still fails, but in more enlightening ways. 707 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,520 Speaker 1: This would have been right around the time that Kathy 708 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,280 Speaker 1: the character would have been separated from Irving was dating 709 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,239 Speaker 1: new guys and starting a whisper network at work after 710 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,320 Speaker 1: getting sexually harassed by her boss. And I wish that 711 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:49,319 Speaker 1: this more forward thinking phase of Kathy was translated into 712 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,840 Speaker 1: the merchandise, but it kind of wasn't. The majority of 713 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 1: merchandise from the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties focused solely 714 00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 1: on food issues and insecurities rather than any win that 715 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:06,280 Speaker 1: Kathy would have. This fixation on Cathy's more insecure, fragile 716 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,680 Speaker 1: self was also emphasized in the next phase of kathy Mania. 717 00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: Three TV specials that aired in in eighty nine on CBS, 718 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 1: animated and produced by the same guy who did the 719 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: Peanuts specials, Bill Melendez. And That's where I'll leave you 720 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,040 Speaker 1: for today. In part two of this episode, we'll get 721 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,759 Speaker 1: into Kathy's animated specials from the late eighties and her 722 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: impact going all the way up to now. Also, she 723 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: asks me when I'm gonna have kids. That's this Wednesday 724 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 1: on ac Cast. A Cast is an I Heart Radio production. 725 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 1: It is written researched and hosted by Me Jamie Loftus. 726 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,360 Speaker 1: Sophie Lichtman is the world's greatest producer, Isaac Taylor is 727 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:55,080 Speaker 1: the world's greatest editor. Zoey Blade writes the world's greatest music, 728 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:59,799 Speaker 1: and Brendan Dickert wrote the world's greatest theme Huge thank 729 00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 1: you to Kathy guys White for this episode in particular, 730 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,320 Speaker 1: and in today's episode, you heard the vocal talent of Anna, Hostna, 731 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:11,760 Speaker 1: Julia Claire and Isaac Taylor. And after many requests, here 732 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: is the full theme song. It's good. She burst into 733 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: the world in nineteen seventy six. She's at book, she's 734 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,080 Speaker 1: out on dates, and she don't like politics. From Mama 735 00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:31,480 Speaker 1: and urban to a feminiss friends, She's fighting all the stands. 736 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:37,360 Speaker 1: It with chocolate and hand Kathy, She's fighting back. She 737 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:41,480 Speaker 1: stressed with success. Let's got her to some slack. Oh, Kathy, 738 00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:46,560 Speaker 1: Mycathy fan Cathy. She is who she is. There's no 739 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:51,360 Speaker 1: tonighting that she's up doing nag living in enemies world. 740 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 1: But speaking of mind, ain't no way to time, Cathey, 741 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 1: she's you and me. She wants to be scenes just 742 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 1: living the dream of Kathy my Cat. This week got there. 743 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:21,640 Speaker 1: She's gotta like go in all she's money to find 744 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:31,720 Speaker 1: wos uncles had to relieve. I feel like you worldless, 745 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:36,080 Speaker 1: but look at you work this. Why shouldn't he? A 746 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:47,239 Speaker 1: patriarchy crumbles the knee chocolate bolder. She's fey because she 747 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:59,560 Speaker 1: finds she not to feel just gone on. The dad 748 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:07,239 Speaker 1: wasn't listen to lead, feel like you will please for I. 749 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:14,160 Speaker 1: I You see there was pay to Uggy. He comes 750 00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,399 Speaker 1: the knee child let