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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Noel.

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Speaker 1: They called me Ben. We are joined as always with

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Speaker 1: our super producer Paul, Mission controlled dec and most importantly,

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Speaker 1: you are you. You are here and that makes this

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Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. We're recording on

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Speaker 1: a Friday today, right before we're headed into a long weekend.

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Speaker 1: How are you guys doing any big plans. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to dragon Con with my kid for the first time

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Speaker 1: this year. Dragon Con is the big pop culture, comic

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Speaker 1: e nerd festival they have every year here in Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: and she's cosplaying for the first time as an anime

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Speaker 1: character called my Hero Academia. Oh. I've heard of this

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Speaker 1: through another producer here who has a cup a coffee

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Speaker 1: cup about that show. He's a big fan. I know

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Speaker 1: you're talking about interesting. Well, I think she's going to

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Speaker 1: really love that. I can imagine her thriving in that environment.

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Speaker 1: I took her once a long time ago, when she

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Speaker 1: was a little too young to appreciate it. But we

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Speaker 1: actually have full passes this time. So we're gonna go

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Speaker 1: to the parade Saturday morning and then spend the day there.

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Speaker 1: Whoa awesome excited What about you, Matt? Uh? You know,

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Speaker 1: just doing repairs on vehicles, cutting the lawn. Uh, doing

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Speaker 1: dad's stuff. Exciting exciting times, Ben, Yeah, yeah, exciting time.

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Speaker 1: Oh you're asking me. I maybe I may be briefly

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Speaker 1: out of town. Uh, not sure yet, but I'll update

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Speaker 1: if there's a whole bunch of stuff and play. You know.

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Speaker 1: What I mean to tell you about this weekend would

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Speaker 1: be reporting on events that are still unfolding, which we

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Speaker 1: don't usually like to do. But there you go. But

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Speaker 1: that's what we're doing today. That is what we're doing today.

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Speaker 1: We are looking at an event that has been slowly unfolding.

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Speaker 1: Depending upon who you ask, it's been unfolding since February

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Speaker 1: of this year, or since the eighteen hundreds. It depends

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Speaker 1: on what sort of view you want to take of history.

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Speaker 1: You've probably heard about the protest in Hong Kong. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you haven't read much about it, or you haven't really

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Speaker 1: heard it examined on your local news programs of choice,

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Speaker 1: But you have probably seen the captivating, disturbing images of

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Speaker 1: thousands of protesters, millions of protesters in a region home

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Speaker 1: to a little over seven million people. They're often wearing

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Speaker 1: surgical masks, maybe carrying symbolic umbrellas as a shield from

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Speaker 1: tear gas, or maybe wearing hard hats, and they are

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Speaker 1: rebelling against what they see as threatening overreach from the

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Speaker 1: main and Chinese government. This is far from the first

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Speaker 1: time Hong Kong and China have been the focus of

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Speaker 1: protests and conflicts, even in the recent past, for sure.

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Speaker 1: And I've found that this story um, as far reaching

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Speaker 1: as it is, has been getting precious little media coverage.

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Speaker 1: I'm seeing it pop up in I have an iPhone

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Speaker 1: and with that news app then we'll just give you

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Speaker 1: notifications of news. I've seen it several times, but generally

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Speaker 1: it's just a quick video or something that's just saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: here's kind of what's happening all right by right, And

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Speaker 1: we have to remember that being from the US, we're

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Speaker 1: from a place where a protests are a time honored tradition,

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Speaker 1: right of the name. One big issue, just any big

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Speaker 1: issue you can think of in the past fifty years,

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Speaker 1: and there's probably been a protest for or against it.

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Speaker 1: Often protests both for and against the thing at the

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Speaker 1: same time in the same place, because we're just wort

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Speaker 1: of trying to maximize our weekends, right. So, yeah, Well,

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Speaker 1: being being able I think as as a group of citizens,

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Speaker 1: being able to speak our minds, I think is important

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Speaker 1: to us and a lot of people around the world.

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Speaker 1: The right to assembly, and we call it here. So

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Speaker 1: the interesting thing about the protests occurring today as we

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Speaker 1: record this is that there appears to be more to

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Speaker 1: the story, something just past the edge of what's being

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Speaker 1: reported in at least the western news, something that could

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Speaker 1: be considered dare we say it conspiratorial? So what is

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Speaker 1: going on? To answer that? We have to figure out

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Speaker 1: how we got here, What what makes Hong Kong different.

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Speaker 1: Here are the facts Hong Kong in one sentence, it

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Speaker 1: is a semi autonomous region on the coast of southern China,

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Speaker 1: just east of Macau. But it has a lot of history. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna get into what we mean by semi autonomous,

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Speaker 1: because that does sound like a bit of a phrase

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Speaker 1: that doesn't make much sense when you're talking about state

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Speaker 1: powers and you know, local powers and all these things.

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Speaker 1: But uh, as we get further down in their history,

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Speaker 1: we're going to find that exact point where it becomes this.

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Speaker 1: So let's jump back all the way to eighteen forty

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Speaker 1: one to really the beginnings of Hong Kong. Yeah, um

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Speaker 1: from eighteen forty one to nineteen ninety seven, which I

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Speaker 1: was very surprised by. Hong Kong was a colony of

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Speaker 1: the UK the ninety Kingdom, originally occupying the area during

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Speaker 1: the First Opium War, which broke out when the Chang

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Speaker 1: dynasty um of China tried to crack down the U

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Speaker 1: K's opium trade. It's a legal opium trade, which led

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Speaker 1: to huge levels of addiction across China. Right, this is

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Speaker 1: something that we discussed in a previous episode of Very

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Speaker 1: Nasty Conflict and be You know, it's rare in war

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Speaker 1: to have clear good and bad forces. Unfortunately, it's it's

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Speaker 1: not as common as history books would have us believe.

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Speaker 1: But in this case, the Chinese government they were pretty

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Speaker 1: much the good guys. They were saying, please stop illegally

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Speaker 1: selling opium. We've made laws, we've made these treaties, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: But despite being the good guys, they lost the First

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Speaker 1: Opium War, and as one of the conditions of their defeat,

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Speaker 1: they signed the Treaty of Nanjing, which in which they

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Speaker 1: seated the island of Hong Kong to the British. This

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Speaker 1: was not the entirety of what we know as Hong

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Speaker 1: Kong today. This was the physical island, Hong Kong Island.

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Speaker 1: It's just if you're looking at a map of Hong

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Speaker 1: Kong right now, if you're looking at the whole thing,

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Speaker 1: the island of Hong Kong is just to the south

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Speaker 1: of where the main city of Hong Kong is right. So,

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Speaker 1: over the next seven world decades, over the next fifty years,

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Speaker 1: the UK expands its control of adjacent areas. They take

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Speaker 1: over the Kowloon Peninsula and the Column Bay. They take

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Speaker 1: over what's called the New Territories. This last area, the

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Speaker 1: New Territories, comprises a lot of modern Hong Kong. But wait,

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Speaker 1: you might be saying, didn't know. Just mentioned that this

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Speaker 1: lasted from eighteen forty one to nineteen ninety seven. What

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Speaker 1: gives Some of us may remember the events of nine

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Speaker 1: seven in eight, way back in eight, when the UK

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Speaker 1: took control of these new territories. They didn't actually control

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Speaker 1: them indefinitely. They leased them from the government of China

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Speaker 1: for ninety nine years. Just unusual. Ben I this struck

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Speaker 1: me as being a little bit strange, like putting a

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Speaker 1: clock on it like that. It's such a long clock,

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Speaker 1: it's weird. Uh. You know, property in general is a

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Speaker 1: little bit weird in this part of the world. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Frequently people don't buy land, they lease it from the government.

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Speaker 1: I was surprised. I was alive at this time. I

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Speaker 1: was surprised when Hong Kong was given back quote unquote

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Speaker 1: too to China on July one, nine. I had not

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Speaker 1: heard of something like this happening. But of course I

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Speaker 1: was not an expert in the peaceful transition of power,

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Speaker 1: so I I don't know. We'll get into it, but

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Speaker 1: there's certainly where caveats with that quote unquote giving back

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Speaker 1: of Hong Kong to China. Correct. Yes, yeah, because as

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Speaker 1: the date approached. As July one approached, both the government

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Speaker 1: of mainland China and the United Kingdom realized it would

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Speaker 1: be cartoonishly difficult, nigh impossible to separate the new territories

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Speaker 1: from the rest of Hong Kong. This had become one

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Speaker 1: cohesive thing. And that's when they said, okay, we have

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Speaker 1: to make something work. The way that Hong Kong, the

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Speaker 1: UK colony has been existing is very different in comparison

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Speaker 1: to the way that the government of mainland China has

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Speaker 1: been existing. That's right. So Hong Kong did get a

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Speaker 1: sort of semblance or partial political and social autonomy under

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Speaker 1: this policy called One Country, Two Systems, where they became

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Speaker 1: a special administrative region of China that had its autonomy

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Speaker 1: and to a degree and and and that it had

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Speaker 1: its own constitution, legal system and rights like free speech

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Speaker 1: um as well as the freedom of assembly. And if

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Speaker 1: you know anything about China, you know that China at large,

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Speaker 1: those things do not necessarily apply, right right. This happened

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Speaker 1: when the two countries signed what was called the See

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Speaker 1: No British Joint Declaration. And the weird thing is about this.

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Speaker 1: It gave the residents of Hong Kong considerations and rights

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Speaker 1: that other regions and other residents did not possess. There

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Speaker 1: were other people in groups and communities in mainland China

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Speaker 1: that would love to have these rights. They didn't get

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Speaker 1: them because they didn't have this unique historical situation. And

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Speaker 1: this is not to say that Hong Kong was already

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Speaker 1: some bright, shiny bastion of democracy. The residents of Hong Kong,

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Speaker 1: the vast majority of them, could not vote and cannot vote,

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Speaker 1: They cannot elect their own leaders. Instead, twelve hundred people

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Speaker 1: are chosen to be what's called an election committee, and

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Speaker 1: those twelve hundred people elect the chief executive, who's the

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Speaker 1: main governmental power there. And people are generally influential people

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Speaker 1: within the society there in Hong Kong. We're talking everyone

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Speaker 1: from administrators to teachers to uh I mean just anything.

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Speaker 1: Anyone who's prominent in their field essentially may end up

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Speaker 1: on that list. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, But

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Speaker 1: doesn't the body government of China and general largely consist

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Speaker 1: of representatives of different kind of commercial sectors. So there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of sway by commercial interests and industry over

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Speaker 1: government decisions and the way things are run. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think that's probably one of the major reasonings to create

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Speaker 1: a system like that. Yeah, it's interesting one of camera

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Speaker 1: which my professors said this, But a long time ago,

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Speaker 1: one of my professors was telling me that if you

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Speaker 1: wanted to make a sweeping generalization of the difference between

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Speaker 1: world governments. You just had to look at the primary occupation,

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Speaker 1: the primary job of most of the people in government.

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Speaker 1: In the US, this professor said, most politicians are lawyers.

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Speaker 1: But in other countries, in China included, many of the

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Speaker 1: ruling individuals are engineers. Uh. This professor and I had

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Speaker 1: been drinking. I do not entirely recall, uh, the rest

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Speaker 1: of his argument, but I thought that was a that

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Speaker 1: was an interesting little um observation to make there. And

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Speaker 1: regardless of how you look at it, whatever the interests

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Speaker 1: of those twelve hundred members, maybe they are not elected

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Speaker 1: by the millions of people in Hong Kong. It's sort

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Speaker 1: of like if we were to find out, like if

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Speaker 1: we were to learn who our new representatives and government

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Speaker 1: would be just when the headline was published, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean? Like now the representative for Atlanta in

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Speaker 1: the Southeast Region is Paul Mission Control decond. There you go.

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Speaker 1: It does that thing does remind me of almost like

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Speaker 1: in aligocratic alligocratic. I don't know what I was gonna

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Speaker 1: call it. Um, it's not a dictatorship or anything like that,

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Speaker 1: but you do haven't because you do have any executive essentially,

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Speaker 1: But that executive is just appointed. I'm trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out how to work oligarchy in there because it's not

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Speaker 1: necessarily that because the rule is not by those people.

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Speaker 1: It's just they, isn't Is it a democratic oligarchy? Yes, so,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's called the People's Republic of China, but

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Speaker 1: I mean the idea of a republic being that it's

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Speaker 1: democratic inherently. But it's not really pure democracy the way

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Speaker 1: we know it in the United States. It's some sort

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Speaker 1: of I don't know, hybrid kind of remix of it

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Speaker 1: when you say, but at the same time, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about Hong Kong, which is functioning differently in this weird

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Speaker 1: little offshoot system, right. But still even though they even

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Speaker 1: though Hong Kong residents don't have the right to directly vote,

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Speaker 1: we have to remember here in the US, we don't

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Speaker 1: directly vote on bills ourselves. We vote for people in

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Speaker 1: theory who will represent our interest if we, I guess,

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Speaker 1: donate enough to their campaigns. Well. Also, how is our

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Speaker 1: electoral college system that much different from this like member

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Speaker 1: election committee. You know, it's a very good point from

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Speaker 1: the perspective of the mainland government. This is like if

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Speaker 1: Alaska had a completely different set of laws, and you

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Speaker 1: could do more stuff than the residents of the other

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Speaker 1: get arrested for doing so. I think that's a pretty

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Speaker 1: good comparison, at least to put it in perspective. And

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Speaker 1: surely both sides of this arrangement, the folks of Hong

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Speaker 1: Kong and the citizens of mainland China, UM, the government's etcetera, uh,

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Speaker 1: must have realized that this wasn't sustainable, that you can't

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Speaker 1: just go on like this, right exactly exactly, that's what um,

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Speaker 1: that's what we're going with that Alaska episode, because one

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Speaker 1: state could not be that different, right, This was almost

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Speaker 1: an alien form of government. Over time, the mainlands began

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Speaker 1: the Hong Kong natives did not like this. As a

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Speaker 1: matter of fact, since all of those chief executive elections

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Speaker 1: have been predicated on a list of candidates vetted by

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Speaker 1: the government in Beijing, what that means is that instead

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Speaker 1: of those people being able to choose an elect a

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Speaker 1: a list from the mainland government. It was kind of like,

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Speaker 1: following people. And presumably those folks they put forth would

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Speaker 1: have represented mainland Chinese interests. Right, there's very much a

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Speaker 1: pro Beijing contingent here, and so now many Hong Kong

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Speaker 1: residents believe that China is illegally interfering in local governance,

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Speaker 1: attacking the human rights they grew up with, and suppressing

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Speaker 1: legal public dissent. So that gets us to where we

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Speaker 1: are now. But where is that exactly? We'll tell you

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Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors. So here we are.

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Speaker 1: What's happening now? The most recent wave of protests date

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Speaker 1: back to February of twenty nineteen, when Hong Kong's government

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Speaker 1: proposed what's known as the Fugitive Offenders and Mutual Legal

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Speaker 1: Assistance in Criminal Matters Legislation Amendment Bill twenty nineteen. Don't

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Speaker 1: let that amazingly sexy name fool you. This is seen

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Speaker 1: as a very controversial thing and it comes from well.

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Speaker 1: In large part, it is seen as a reaction to

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Speaker 1: a couple of cases involving extradition. It it procedes some

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Speaker 1: of the more human interest stories, but they're very much

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Speaker 1: part and parcel of the protests. And when I say

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Speaker 1: human interests, I don't mean like, hey, look at this

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Speaker 1: cute dog that knows math. I mean human interest in

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Speaker 1: the fact that people more easily digest stories when there

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Speaker 1: are faces and names of individuals assigned to those stories.

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Speaker 1: You can bore people to death with the most amazing

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Speaker 1: policy or legislation in the world. But if you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we're not really talking about extradition, we're talking about Irma

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Speaker 1: mckinnaw who lives in Indianapolis or whatever, then people can

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Speaker 1: care because then it's it's easier to put someone on there.

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Speaker 1: And this is a case that we were talking about

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Speaker 1: briefly off air. One of the faces for the extradition

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Speaker 1: controversy is a guy named Chon Tong Kai. That's right.

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Speaker 1: Um Seon Tong Kai, who's nineteen years old, and his

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Speaker 1: girlfriend Pun Hu Wing, who's twenty went on vacation for

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Speaker 1: a Valentine's Day getaway to Taiwan and stayed in a hotel,

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Speaker 1: but only one of them returned. Pun Hu Wing did

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Speaker 1: not come back from that trip, and Chan Tong Kai

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Speaker 1: later admitted to the Hong Kong police that he had

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Speaker 1: strangled his girlfriend and put her body inside a suitcase

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Speaker 1: and then dumped it in some bushes by a subway

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Speaker 1: station in Taipei. And at first it wasn't a huge deal.

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Speaker 1: It was just more of like a kind of a

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Speaker 1: local regional story. And also it's really messed up, like

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Speaker 1: due to this person, whatever you have to do to

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Speaker 1: this person to get justice as a crime of passion

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Speaker 1: to because it turned out that the child she was

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Speaker 1: carrying was not his, that's right, wasn't premeditated for sure.

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Speaker 1: But about a year after this this all took place,

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Speaker 1: and there were these kind of little smatterings of stories

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Speaker 1: in the in the press there the murder was used

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Speaker 1: as an impetus for the Hong Kong government to propose

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Speaker 1: a new law that it would that would allow Hong

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Speaker 1: Kong to transfer any suspects of any crimes to Taiwan

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Speaker 1: or other places uh that they currently do not have

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Speaker 1: an extradition treaty with, and that of course includes mainland China. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that was the thing that Ben was discussing earlier,

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Speaker 1: the Fugitive Offenders and mute ill Legal Assistance in Criminal

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Speaker 1: Matters Legislation Amendment bill. Yeah. Yeah. The problem here is

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Speaker 1: not the concept of extradition itself. Extradition is just the

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Speaker 1: process through which one country sends an individual to another

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Speaker 1: country when they are wanted for a crime. Right, So

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Speaker 1: extradition is, in theory, the process that allows the long

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Speaker 1: arm of the law to follow criminals into international waters. Right.

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Speaker 1: Otherwise people would just be killing each other, embezzling millions

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Speaker 1: of dollars and disappearing, you know, like across the border

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Speaker 1: to Canada, which does have an extradition agreement with the US.

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Speaker 1: So please watch out, understood. Yeah, so, but watch yourself,

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Speaker 1: especially when dealing with prescription medications and over things like that.

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Speaker 1: And Carrie Lamb, who is the Chief executive of Hong Kong,

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Speaker 1: figured that this murder, it being sort of a sensational

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Speaker 1: kind of purient crime that captured the nature in his attention,

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Speaker 1: figured that that would be enough to get the public

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Speaker 1: behind her and you know, this this new extradition law.

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Speaker 1: And and it turns out she was dead wrong. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So I want to talk a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: this extradition law because again, Hong Kong already has a

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Speaker 1: number of extradition agreements, or they did with like nineteen

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Speaker 1: or twenty different countries. The US is among them, so

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Speaker 1: anybody who might hypothetically be planning an escape route for

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Speaker 1: a crime pick somewhere else. Hong Kong's problem instead was

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Speaker 1: that this new bill expands the list of extradition countries

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Speaker 1: in a way that is very um it's very loosey goosey.

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Speaker 1: It would give the Chief Executive of Hong Kong the

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Speaker 1: ability to extradite suspects to other countries on a case

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Speaker 1: by case basis, regardless what agreement did or did not exist.

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Speaker 1: So the Hong Kong protesters here are frightened and rightly

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Speaker 1: disturbed by the idea that Hong Kong residents could be

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Speaker 1: extradited to mainland China for not not for the kind

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Speaker 1: of things that we would ordinarily regard as criminal acts,

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Speaker 1: not just murder or theft, but things like political dissent protests,

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Speaker 1: even something as small as posting Winnie the Pooh pictures

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Speaker 1: on Twitter, which you need a VPN to do in

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Speaker 1: mainland China, but can also get you in trouble because

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Speaker 1: it's anti Jiji Ping propaganda. And some of the protesters

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Speaker 1: have actually coined or referred to this whole affair as

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Speaker 1: legalized kidnapping. Well, yeah, the that's certainly the fear right.

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Speaker 1: So just to break this down a little bit, we

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Speaker 1: mentioned before those people in Hong Kong who are going

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Speaker 1: to elect the executive, right, in this case it's Carrie Lamb.

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Speaker 1: Now that list of people that they can choose from

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Speaker 1: are generally highly pro Beijing, right, So the the executive

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Speaker 1: if the power is given to this executive, and then

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Speaker 1: there are political dissidents, and this executive can just say, hey,

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Speaker 1: this person is posting the Pooh pictures. Um that really

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Speaker 1: is you can imagine it being a fear. It isn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily a fully realized threat at this moment um, at

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Speaker 1: least from what I've been reading, but it does seem

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Speaker 1: like one of those things that the potential for abuse

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Speaker 1: is right in your face. And to be fair, the

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Speaker 1: mainland government of China argues that this is just closing

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Speaker 1: a loophole. They believe that Hong Kong is harboring hundreds

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Speaker 1: of fugitives when the former security ministers said over three

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Speaker 1: hundred fugitives who are exploiting a weakness in the one country,

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Speaker 1: two systems policy to escape justice. In response to these

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Speaker 1: massive protests, the current Chief Executive, Carrie Lamb, suspended this

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Speaker 1: Legislation for the Fugitive Offenders and Mutual Legal Assistance in

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Speaker 1: Criminal Matters Legislation Amendment built deep breath. But she did

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Speaker 1: not withdraw this bill entirely. And so critics, some of

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Speaker 1: whom are members of that Legislative Council, believe this suspension

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Speaker 1: is little more than a temporary pr move. And we

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Speaker 1: see this all that. We see this in the US

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Speaker 1: all the time, right, especially with like oil pipelines and

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Speaker 1: things like that. That the legislation is introduced, it gets

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Speaker 1: too much press, goes away for a little bit, and

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Speaker 1: then it just slides under the radar like the FCC

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Speaker 1: and net neutrality, right, perfect example. So people who on

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Speaker 1: the Legislative Council who disagree with Carrie Lamb believe Mainland

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Speaker 1: China is turning these screws tighter and tighter. We've got

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Speaker 1: a we've got an interesting take from a council member,

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Speaker 1: Alvin Jung, who who said, you know, I'm also disturbed.

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Speaker 1: I'm disturbed by this extradition thing that they didn't actually

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Speaker 1: withdraw the bill. And also why won't the government open

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Speaker 1: an independent inquiry into police misconduct and brutality associated with

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Speaker 1: these protests? And here again we kind of see that

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Speaker 1: human interest stuff, being able to put a face and

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Speaker 1: a name to a cause. Police in Hong Kong have

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Speaker 1: been accused of using tear gas and rubber bullets, along

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Speaker 1: with excessive force against overwhelmingly unarmed protesters. And oddly enough,

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Speaker 1: we can see very similar, very similar pictures and stories

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Speaker 1: spun in two completely different ways in mainland Chinese media

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Speaker 1: and in Hong Kong's independent media. There's a guy who

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Speaker 1: has a picture of himself pointing a shotgun at protesters,

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Speaker 1: and in the mainland news he is hailed as a

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Speaker 1: national hero of the people. But then you'll see footage

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Speaker 1: of some authority figures beating up a sixty year old man,

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Speaker 1: a protester who is still in his hospital gurney, and

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Speaker 1: they're depicted as you know, shocked stormtroopers more or less,

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Speaker 1: and it looks brutal from what I've so we know

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Speaker 1: that the mainland government is at the very least not

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Speaker 1: particularly sympathetic to the aims and demands of the protesters.

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Speaker 1: A spokesperson for the Chinese Foreign Ministry Hua chun Ying,

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Speaker 1: and we have to we have to know none of

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Speaker 1: us speak fluent Mandarin nor Cantonese. So apologies for the

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Speaker 1: mispronunciations if you are listening and your name comes up

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Speaker 1: here anyway, The spokesperson says, the recent protests and demonstrations

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Speaker 1: in Hong Kong have turned into radical, violent behaviors that

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Speaker 1: seriously violate the law, undermine security and social order in

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Speaker 1: Hong Kong, and endanger local people, safety, property, and normal life.

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Speaker 1: So what what that means? Their perspective here is that we,

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Speaker 1: as the government of mainland China, are just enforcing rule

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Speaker 1: of law. We're not We're not the bad guys. You

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Speaker 1: all are the ones who are ultimately hurting yourselves and

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Speaker 1: why are you doing that? You know? But now we

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Speaker 1: have to ask ourselves is there more to the story.

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Speaker 1: The protests are part of an ongoing event, and at

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Speaker 1: the time of this recording, there is no peaceful resolution.

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Speaker 1: There's there are new developments that will we'll have to

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Speaker 1: get to we'll we'll literally have to check on this

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Speaker 1: before we wrap up the episode. People are still out

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Speaker 1: in the streets, the pro democratic Hong Kong forces are

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Speaker 1: still at odds with authoritarian China, but there are different

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Speaker 1: things happening. At the edges of the conversation, things start

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Speaker 1: to blur how much of this narrative is true, how

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Speaker 1: much of it is manufactured, and if so, by whom

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Speaker 1: We'll tell you after a word from our sponsors. Here's

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Speaker 1: where it gets crazy. Yes, and in this case, I

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Speaker 1: mean the conspiracy theories are which which abound, aren't just

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Speaker 1: coming from fringe groups and researchers. The government of Mainland

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Speaker 1: China itself has some official conspiratorial narratives of its own

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Speaker 1: that it's alleging. Well, and it's interesting because it kind

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Speaker 1: of mirrors some things that happen here in the US

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Speaker 1: with protests, at least some of the oratorial possibilities, with

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Speaker 1: outside groups coming in to start well well, coming into

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Speaker 1: yeah fund or start or fullment a protest um. So

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Speaker 1: there's there's this thought, at least according to the government

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Speaker 1: of Mainland China, that these protests aren't real. It's not

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Speaker 1: actually local people who are out there with their umbrellas

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Speaker 1: on the streets, holding up traffic and stopping basically everyday

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Speaker 1: life from happening. We haven't mentioned. This is hundreds of

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Speaker 1: thousands of people taking to the streets. If you should

430
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: the aerial photographs or breath take it's more than a million.

431
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: So it's roughly if you wanted to ballpark it. Uh,

432
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: one seventh of the population has actively protested at some point. Wow,

433
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 1: and okay, so let's just get back to these rumors

434
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: really fast of this conspiracy. It's not like it's just

435
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 1: a few government officials saying something on their Twitter or

436
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 1: something like that. There have been official statements. Government officials

437
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: have argued that the protests are actually being run by

438
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 1: some secretive group. Maybe it's a state actor, maybe it's not.

439
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: Maybe it's um, you know, a small group within the

440
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: protesters that's making the whole like puppet mastering the whole thing,

441
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: a shadowy cabal of Westerners. I mean again, here's the

442
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 1: here's the issue with this before we even get into it. Yeah,

443
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: that wouldn't be so far fetched. Say the name, the

444
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: name is the coolest part. Oh that the name is

445
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: the black hand, the black hands. Right. Government officials in

446
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: the PRC are arguing that these protests are run by

447
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: a secretive black hand. Uh, they've blamed. They've found a

448
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: specific person upon whom the place blamed for this. It

449
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: is a political counselor who was working as a diplomat

450
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: at the U. S. Consulate in Hong Kong named Julie

451
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: Edda E A D e h. In this narrative, most

452
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: of the Hong Kong protesters are just people who have

453
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: been woefully misled. Then a few of them are active

454
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: traders collaborating with foreign powers. CCTV, which is a great

455
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: watch in my opinion, it's China state run media company.

456
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: They argue that Julie Ada is the behind the scenes

457
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: black hands creating chaos in Hong Kong, and other state

458
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: run media pro Beijing or Beijing run stuff in Hong

459
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: Kong have called her a mysterious and low profile expert

460
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: on subversion. At this point, as cool as the name

461
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: black hand sounds, there's no solid proof to this. But

462
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: as you said, Matt, the West in general and the

463
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: US in particular has a a certain history. Yeah, she's

464
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: working as a diplomat. Come on, guys, we've heard this

465
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: story before. Yeah, someone hanging out over there the embassy

466
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: that just happens to also have a C and A

467
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: and an I somewhere within their company for which they work,

468
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: the new I T. Guy, Can I just point out

469
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: really quick how ironic it is? Maybe I don't rono

470
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: the right word that the state run media Company of China,

471
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: a country that is accused of being sort of a

472
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:15,239
Speaker 1: surveillance state, is called CCTV. That's just I just had

473
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: to get that out there. I think that's fascinating. Yeah,

474
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: you have to wonder if it's on purpose. I don't know.

475
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: It'd be cool if it was. It would be cool

476
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: if they were that transparent about But but yeah, this,

477
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: this idea of the West participating in illegal subversion is

478
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: common in a lot of countries because the US did

479
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: that stuff multiple times, multiple provable times. It's not a

480
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: conspiracy theory. There are CIA assets who come in, like

481
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: goes joking earlier about the I T guy, but they

482
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: are totally people who come in just you know, let's

483
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: say there happen to be some increasingly tense negotiations around

484
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,239
Speaker 1: nuclear proliferation, and all of a sudden is like this

485
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: new junior consular officer who has a crazy scary amount

486
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: of clearance clearance that the ambassador doesn't have. His trajectory

487
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: is just insane. Right. And then we could add to

488
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: that the little more murky practice of embedding intelligence agents

489
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: in in geo's which is not as easily proven. But

490
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: that's another that's just another common thing that a lot

491
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: of other countries believe. So at the Chinese University of

492
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: Hong Kong there's an associate professor. His name is Wilson Wong.

493
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: It's a very cool name. At this stage, says Wilson,

494
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: it's undeniably impossible to eliminate the possibility of some form

495
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: of assistance from any power or organization overseas. But he

496
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: also says, look, if one point seven million people out

497
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: of mott more than seven million people the total population,

498
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: are joining a protest, then how could this still be secret?

499
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: Howe this secret black hand thing happened, you know, in

500
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: in a species where it's pretty impossible for more than

501
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: three people to keep a secret. How could more than

502
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: a million? I mean, that's the argument a lot of

503
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: times with these kinds of conspiracy theories, right, like, how

504
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: could they keep this under wraps when so many moving

505
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: parts are involved? I'll tell you how. It's not a

506
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: bunch of moving parts. The black hand if you imagine it,

507
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: imagine a swimming pool. Okay, okay, now the black hand.

508
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: Let's imagine it's literally someone's hand, one hand going in

509
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: the water, pressing down hard enough and then lifting their

510
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: hand out. What happens. It displaced waters waves go throughout

511
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: that entire pool. Baby, So the majority of people are

512
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: just riding the wave. That's what I'm saying, because if

513
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: you get enough people upset in a small group, those

514
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,479
Speaker 1: people with the connections. I'm just I'm just putting out

515
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: there that I think it would be possible to start

516
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: a movement like this with a very small group of people.

517
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: But but a million people isn't a small group of people.

518
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: Because if you get press, if you get I mean,

519
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: if you honestly you could work the thing. Think of

520
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: it as a pr movement. If you look at it

521
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: through the lens of asymmetrical warfare, information control, it isn't

522
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: as crazy as it sounds. I mean, it didn't. It

523
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: did not take millions of Russian operatives to swing the

524
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: needle on the last US election. I mean, you get

525
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: a lot of bang for your buck depending on how

526
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: you apply it, especially if there's a bit of a

527
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: common feeling about a certain topic, right and then you just,

528
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: like I said, just move the waters enough to where

529
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: everybody can feel it. I don't just well, I mean,

530
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: I think that's really I think that's a really spot

531
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: on observation. We have to. We have to ask ourselves,

532
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: which we can maybe spit ball on a little bit later.

533
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,959
Speaker 1: We have to ask ourselves what would the motivation of

534
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: this black hand be where they just like, I don't oh, guys,

535
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: let's let's just fux with some things like live a

536
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: little paying an agent of chaos. I don't know, Yolo.

537
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: You know. But to your point, Matt, about a small

538
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: amount of people being able to secretly affect a massive

539
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 1: amount of change, we have to look at the other

540
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: side of the equation, which is that there is a

541
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: state sponsored internet war occurring about over this topic. Now,

542
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: China's Communist Party is not the only group alleging conspiracy

543
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 1: UH pro Western forces in Hong Kong. I wouldn't say

544
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: pro Western pro UH independent Hong Kong forces UH and

545
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,720
Speaker 1: Western based companies, especially tech companies, believe that the Chinese

546
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 1: government is trying to game the system with its own

547
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: informational warfare operations. They've been accused of attempting to manipulate

548
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: public opinion through the use of astroturfing and the use

549
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: of Twitter bots, And we have proven statements like the

550
00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: people who believe this conspiracy are Twitter and Facebook. Well yeah,

551
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: recently didn't Twitter just remove a whole bunch of accounts

552
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: um because of this reason in particular, Yeah, almost a thousand.

553
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: They put out a press release about it too, Yes

554
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,320
Speaker 1: they did, and here's here's their statement quote. These accounts

555
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: were deliberately in specifically attempting to sow political discord in

556
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: Hong Kong, including undermining the legitimacy and political positions of

557
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: the protest movement on the ground. Based on our intensive investigations,

558
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: we have reliable evidence to support that this is a

559
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: coordinated state backed operation. Specifically, we identified large clusters of

560
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: accounts behaving in a coordinated manner to amplify messages related

561
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: to the Hong Kong protests really quick to just want

562
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 1: in case anyone as an excidy know. Astro turfing is

563
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: sort of like an Internet equivalent of a false flag,

564
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: where you associate messaging with some kind of grassroots movement

565
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: when it's actually it's it's basically just to mask the

566
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: identity of the purveyor of said message and make it

567
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 1: seem like, oh, this is the local vibe, as the

568
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: local opinion, but it's actually being put forth by the

569
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: big guys. And we have a whole episode on astroturfing

570
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: bots and all that stuff that you can go listen

571
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 1: to right now with Joe McCormick correct to blow your mind. Also,

572
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 1: check out the episode you did with us on the

573
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: Bicameral Mind, which is totally different but worth your time

574
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 1: if you haven't checked it out. Yeah. Yeah, so this

575
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: happens in the US too. We we want to be

576
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: very clear that we're not just picking on the government

577
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: of China. Uh, the US and different US politicians, especially

578
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 1: special interest groups they're called here do this all the time.

579
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,359
Speaker 1: When you see those vague p s a s where

580
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: it's uh, some like generic housewife who seems really concerned

581
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 1: about how people have unfair opinions about butter or dairy.

582
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 1: Uh that that's a real example. Uh there, those are

583
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 1: Those are kind of AstroTurf. They're paid for by these

584
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 1: other interests. And if you look at Twitter's statement, which

585
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: is publicly available now at least as we record this,

586
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: you can see at the bottom of their statement they

587
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: have displayed images from these uh different these different PRC

588
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: based bots for these astroturfing operations. But Twitter didn't stop there.

589
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: They also tipped off their pals over at Facebook and

590
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 1: Facebook even even shouts out Twitter, I believe at some

591
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: point in the in their in their press release, they

592
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: say something like following a tip from Twitter, Yeah, and

593
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: they removed posts that they described as quote coordinated inauthentic behavior,

594
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: which is kind of what Facebook is in general. It's

595
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: a lot of inauthentic behavior. Um, but this is much

596
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: more pointed and specific and politically motivated. From their statement quote, today,

597
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: we removed seven pages, three groups, and five Facebook accounts

598
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: in evolved in coordinated and authentic behavior as part of

599
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 1: a small network that originated in China and focused on

600
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 1: Hong Kong. The individuals behind this campaign engaged in a

601
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: number of deceptive tactics, including the use of fake accounts,

602
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 1: some of which had been already disabled by our automated systems,

603
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: to manage pages posing as news organizations. Posting groups, disseminate

604
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: their content and also drive people to off platform news sites.

605
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: And they're also examples outside of the quote of the

606
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: propaganda displayed along with this statement. There you go. Yeah.

607
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: So it turns out one thing that Facebook is against

608
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: is coordinated in authentic behavior. It sounds like a flash

609
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: mob to me. Coordinated in authentic behavior. Woman, I was joking,

610
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: but to me, like when people, you know, they curate

611
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 1: what they put out there on Facebook about their lives.

612
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,280
Speaker 1: To me, a lot of posts on Instagram and Facebook

613
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: are coordinated in authentic behavior because you're trying to create

614
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 1: a look susion of this perfect life. But you you,

615
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: you lead that may or may not be actually what

616
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: it is. Me For me, it goes even further into

617
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: the realm of hypocrisy because Facebook already has a clearly

618
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 1: proven history of gaming the system. If they want something

619
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: to be more in the zeitgeist, then they will just

620
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: mess with the feed, Like when's the last time you

621
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: had a chronological feed on your Facebook without some kind

622
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 1: of add on, right or extension? They are they they

623
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: coordinate this stuff already. I think they're just mad because

624
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: someone else came in their sandbox and started playing with

625
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: the toys that they use. But can we can we

626
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: talk about what some of the posts actually look like though? Sure? Yeah,

627
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 1: so I'm just gonna describe one of these to you,

628
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 1: because like the Twitter post, you can see in Facebook's

629
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: press release you can see examples. Yeah, well, and and

630
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: it is. It's just not something you would, I guess

631
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: expect to see when there's a big protest like this

632
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: with with that large of a person scentage of the

633
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 1: population involved in the protest. Um. So it's a picture

634
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: with there are there's a slide on the left to

635
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: slide on the right, and it happens four times going down,

636
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: and it says things like they treated policeman headshots, they

637
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: refused to show their faces, Uh, they almost killed a

638
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: man at airport, they took a nurse's right eye. And

639
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: then it says they are the Hong Kong cockroaches, they

640
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: being the protesters. Yeah, so it's all about things like

641
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: they block the train doors but then referring to them

642
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: as cockroaches. And then the post when it's put on there,

643
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: it says see the truth, right, and that's that's one

644
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: of the English language posts. We should emphasize that too

645
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,800
Speaker 1: because they're they're posting multiple languages. So there is definitely

646
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: information warfare there and now we have we have it.

647
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 1: This is a high level look at this. The situation

648
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 1: against ongoing, but both sides are claiming the others participated

649
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: in some sort of conspiracy. The protesters, whether you want

650
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:06,879
Speaker 1: to call them pro Western or you want to call

651
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 1: them just pro independence. For Hong Kong. They say that

652
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 1: China is pulling some heavy big brother stuff, which to

653
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: a degree is accurate. It's it's true. But then on

654
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: the mainland China side or the pro Beijing side, they're

655
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 1: saying that these people are just fingers on a hand

656
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 1: or they're dancing along to strings. And really we get

657
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: to a question of precedent. There is precedent for the

658
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 1: West to participate in this kind of um protest mongering

659
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: and this sort of illegal subversion acts culminating in coup's historically.

660
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: But there's also precedent from mainland government of China to

661
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: practice severe information control, to secretly arrest, detain or kidnap people,

662
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: to disappear them and so on. I mean Tianamen square well,

663
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: with all of the talk about China and then these

664
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: trade embargoes and stuff like, what would be if we

665
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 1: had to sus it out, what would be our benefit?

666
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,399
Speaker 1: But would we have to gain from poementing any kind

667
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: of fake protests to make Beijing more in control and

668
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: remove that autonomy from Hong Kong. If there, if there

669
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: is more to the story, then we do have to

670
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: ask ourselves what sort of motivation the West would have

671
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: if we're if we're saying, what sort of motivation would

672
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: the US have? I guess you could. You could pull

673
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 1: any amounts of things out of out of a spitball hat, right,

674
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 1: But none of them really have a lot of sands.

675
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: There's not one. There's not one that gives us like

676
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: a ding ding ding ding moment. You know. Well, I

677
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 1: honestly I can't imagine why anyone, at least in the

678
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: Western set of powers, would want to get rid of

679
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 1: this special Hong Kong thing that they've had for so long,

680
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 1: like a way away into China that they really don't

681
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: have anywhere else. Well, the idea wouldn't be that they are.

682
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 1: The idea, if it's a Western black hand, would not

683
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 1: be that they're trying to get rid of Hong Kong.

684
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: It would be that they're trying to make Hong Kong

685
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 1: a further separate from mainland China. Oh by fumenting the

686
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: protests too. But again, so that would be attempting to

687
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: have this protest turn into and all out turning, turning

688
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: the tides and forming their own government. Essentially, that's what

689
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: we're just not going to happen. Yeah, I don't because

690
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,280
Speaker 1: I don't see that happening, and I don't see anyone

691
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 1: who would have the means to make this protest occur.

692
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: I don't see them believing that that could actually happen

693
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 1: without without intervention from mainland China. So this is pretty

694
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: out there. And I know I've I've ridden this hobby

695
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: horse to the grounds, but I'm gonna pick it up

696
00:43:55,960 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: one more time. Be interesting to read the to reread

697
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 1: the section on China in UH Foundations of Geopolitics, which

698
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,800
Speaker 1: has had an eerie similarity to a lot of Russian

699
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: policy in the past few years, because that the book

700
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 1: does or the work does examine what would happen there.

701
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: So if if, for instance, Russian forces are applying the

702
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:28,240
Speaker 1: same strategy of sowing discord in China that they applied

703
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 1: so successfully here in the U S. Which is not

704
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 1: a conspiracy theory, it really did happen. It does not

705
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: matter where you fall them, whichever political divide. UH. The

706
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: government of Russia played this country like an oboe or

707
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: something that's easier to play than an like a ukulele

708
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 1: or a kazoo. That's how much they played and how

709
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: easily so could it be something like that? But in China,

710
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: we don't know. There's no proof yet, And what we

711
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: do know is that these protesters have put forth a

712
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: list of demands, a pretty short kind of general list

713
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 1: of demands UM. One of them is to withdraw the

714
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 1: bill UH and for Carrie Lamb to step down, and

715
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: for the government to launch an inquiry into police brutality,

716
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 1: and for folks who have been arrested to be released,

717
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 1: and also for greater democratic freedoms. But we actually do

718
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: have an update that UM carry Lamb we talked about,

719
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: had submitted a report to Beijing that UM took a

720
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: look at these demands and decided that withdrawing this bill

721
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:32,240
Speaker 1: could help diffuse some of this political tension that's mounting

722
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 1: and sort of diffused some of these protests. But now

723
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 1: there's an article in Reuters that just came out today

724
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: that says the Chinese central government has rejected Lamb's proposal

725
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: to withdraw this bill and has quote ordered her not

726
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 1: to yield to any of the protesters other demands at

727
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: this time and just in the just in the interest

728
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: of getting all those demands out there. They also asked

729
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:59,959
Speaker 1: for the protests to be characterized as protests in Chinese media,

730
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 1: not as riots. Because for months leading up to now, uh,

731
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: the PRC was calling these riots rather than protests. And

732
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: we know how important words can be. Just think about

733
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 1: Hurricane Katrina when it hit New Orleans and based almost

734
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: entirely on their race or how their race was seen

735
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:24,240
Speaker 1: to present in media, people were called looters or scavengers,

736
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: and it made a It made a hell of a difference.

737
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,720
Speaker 1: These things may seem small, but they have huge effects.

738
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: Just like you were talking about Matt with ripples in

739
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,399
Speaker 1: the pool, and you could argue that this update sort

740
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 1: of really shows evidence to what degree China is controlling

741
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: Hong Kong and their response to this protest, or at

742
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: least attempted to. They're definitely controlling the Chief Executive right

743
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: along with the Members council. So so what do you

744
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 1: think I'd be really interested to hear from our fellow

745
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: listeners who have lived in Hong Kong or mainland China

746
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: have some mixed sperience. There is this? Is this? Is

747
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 1: sea change? Is this overblown? Is there like the big

748
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: looming threat that seems pretty unlikely now at this point

749
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: is direct military intervention? Is that in the cards because

750
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 1: it's in the past, you know, um, I certainly hope

751
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: that doesn't repeat. Well, what I mean, what should happen

752
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:27,720
Speaker 1: to because think about it from the perspective of mainland China,

753
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 1: this is another This is another piece of the country

754
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: right that has been subject to foreign influence historically and

755
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 1: maybe seen as trying to break away, like the think

756
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 1: about Tibet, right, they're all those these largely Western backed

757
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 1: protest for free Tibet write, a number of concerts and

758
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: stuff like that, a ton of soft power exercise from

759
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: the West, from other countries that you know, the only

760
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 1: thing to have in common is they're not China. So

761
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: how would you see it from this perspective? And then

762
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,879
Speaker 1: also how would you feel if you are a Hong

763
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: Kong resident You've grown up with these rights and now

764
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 1: they're leaving or are you being motivated by some other

765
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 1: some black hand something something is afoot right, And the

766
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 1: question just becomes what do you think more is more plausible?

767
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 1: And no to your point, yeah, I think it's it's

768
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 1: pretty obvious that the government of China is not exactly

769
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: exercising new tactics. This is s op for them, right,

770
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:46,399
Speaker 1: breaking news mission control. Let's lean on you real quick

771
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 1: for some sort of breaking new sound queue here. We

772
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:54,399
Speaker 1: recorded the episode that you just heard a little bit

773
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,439
Speaker 1: earlier and in a few days ago, and because we

774
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: were recording a something on an ongoing event, we wanted

775
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 1: to make sure that we brought the latest update to

776
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: you as this episode publishes. So everything you heard us

777
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: say just now about the Hong Kong protest is still

778
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 1: more or less correct. The big update that happened as

779
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: we were going to publish today's episode was the news

780
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: about the ostensible withdrawal of the extradition bill. Yeah, we

781
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: very rarely do this. It is Wednesday. We publish our

782
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 1: episodes on Wednesday, and this one is about to be

783
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: live to you, and the news just came through that

784
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,399
Speaker 1: Carrie Lamb, the leader there in Hong Kong that we've

785
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,720
Speaker 1: been discussing this episode the whole time, has officially stated

786
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 1: that the government will withdraw the extradition bill that was

787
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 1: in place there. That was one of the main reasons

788
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: for the protests. And um, that is on it on

789
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: face value, a very good thing at least for the

790
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 1: people who are protesting, right, But but it wasn't the

791
00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:00,040
Speaker 1: only demand that the people had. That's correct. The s

792
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: correct met There were five demands. UH. The first demand

793
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 1: was withdrawal of the extradition bill from the legislature. UH.

794
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 1: The second was to no longer characterize the protest as

795
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: riots right, and the third was to release any protesters

796
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 1: who have been arrested later exonerate them. Then the fourth one,

797
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 1: which turns out to be the real sticky one, now,

798
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 1: the establishment of an independent inquiry into police misbehavior and

799
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: excessive use of force. And then of course the resignation

800
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 1: of Carrie Lamb along with the implementation of the vote

801
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 1: for the Legislative Council in Chief executive elections. Again, the

802
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 1: majority of people living in Hong Kong cannot vote directly,

803
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: and some might look at this as a good sign

804
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 1: in terms of UH, the autonomy of Hong Kong and

805
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 1: its ability to kind of wriggle out um from the

806
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,919
Speaker 1: control of mainland China and President Shei jin ping um.

807
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 1: But President she had a pretty ominous quote. UH, if

808
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:07,879
Speaker 1: you ask me, that might indicate otherwise. He said, on

809
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 1: matters of principle, not an inch will be yielded, but

810
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 1: on matters of tactics there can be flexibility. And there's

811
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 1: a New York Times piece about this that came out

812
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:21,280
Speaker 1: just yesterday. Where's Jean Pierre Kabistan, who is a professor

813
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 1: at Hong Kong Baptist University and also the author of

814
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 1: a book called China Tomorrow, Democracy or Dictator's Ship. He

815
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 1: suggested that this quote indicated that Um Lamb was actually

816
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: asked to make this decision, forced even to make this

817
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: call um as a calculated move ahead of the October

818
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: first anniversary of the People's Republic of China being established. Yeah,

819
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: because it's the seventieth anniversary that's can be celebrated there. Yeah,

820
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: just to continue studing some sources here. The Guardian had

821
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: a great piece and they actually talked about four actions

822
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 1: that Lamb had proposed when she was making this announcement

823
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 1: here to kind of quell the people's distrust of the

824
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: government and their anger. Right she uh, she was pledging

825
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:08,959
Speaker 1: to I'm just gonna quote from the article a little

826
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 1: bit here to follow up recommendations from that Independent Police

827
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 1: Complaints Council to set up a platform for dialogue so

828
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 1: people who do have complaints to speak with that board,

829
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 1: as well as inviting community leaders and experts to advise

830
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: the government on social issues. Essentially moving forward, which all

831
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: like kind of speaks to what you're saying. Their nol

832
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 1: feels like calculated moves to make the people feel a

833
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 1: little less angry more than anything else. So one thing

834
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: that's interesting is how quickly the Western media, both The

835
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,240
Speaker 1: Guardian in the UK, New York Times in the United

836
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 1: States that you guys quote, It's interesting how quickly they

837
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: have covered this story and how adroitly. I was also

838
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: looking at the South China Morning Post and some other

839
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 1: um more in country. Very good things, but but it's

840
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 1: little difficult there because a lot of those have already

841
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 1: been bought and paid for either by the pro autonomy

842
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 1: group in Hong Kong or the let's say, at the

843
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 1: pro Orwellian big brother uh mainland Chinese government. And what

844
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,760
Speaker 1: we're what we're seeing here now is a very small

845
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 1: interchange or exchange, right, a very small power conflict in

846
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 1: a very long large game. Everything that happens now in

847
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: in terms of the the governing powers of Mainland China,

848
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 1: everything that happens now sets a precedent. Right. There is

849
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 1: nothing that is not precedent in this arena. And this

850
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 1: means that Carrie Lamb, who is definitely not uh not

851
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 1: on everybody's top three favorite people list. Uh. This the

852
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:02,320
Speaker 1: chief executive is is taking a lot of heat such

853
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 1: that people will say, well, Lamb asked to resign and

854
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 1: was not allowed to write by the Mainland government. However,

855
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:17,479
Speaker 1: when it is politically expedient for her to do so,

856
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 1: she will step down from power. There's a little bit

857
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:21,720
Speaker 1: of a prediction here. She will step down from power,

858
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: giving the Mainland government the ability to say what happened

859
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: here was a fault of local leadership. Right, So you

860
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 1: can cut off the finger to save the hand, which

861
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 1: is completely possible, right. I don't have an inside line

862
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: on this, It's completely possible. And that's what we see

863
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: when one of the five demands is sort of met,

864
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 1: that's the finger on that hand. Yeah. Caveston also was

865
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:49,240
Speaker 1: quoted in saying that the whole point of this move

866
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: potentially would be to calm down moderates and weekend and

867
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: isolate radicals. So it's giving an inch in order to

868
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 1: ultimately maybe take a mile. Well, and again just to

869
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: continue with these uh less Western sources. If you jumped

870
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 1: to out Al Jazeer and they're reporting there, they're mostly

871
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 1: focusing at least in this one article here about how

872
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 1: uh several groups like the Civil Human Rights Front the

873
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: c h r F, which are it's a group that's

874
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 1: been highly active there in Hong Kong with the protests.

875
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: They are vowing to continue, or at least a lot

876
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 1: of the people are vowing to continue protesting even though

877
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,919
Speaker 1: this one finger has or this one demand has been met,

878
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: and then the one finger perhaps will be cut off

879
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 1: of of the hand. Um the people are basically saying

880
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. We know, we see what you're doing.

881
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,880
Speaker 1: I'd also like to follow up on the black hand

882
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:44,399
Speaker 1: statement from what we previously recorded here uh seeing wat

883
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 1: or the spelled x I n h u A that is,

884
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 1: one of the mainland state owned media platforms just warned

885
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,839
Speaker 1: that the quote end is coming for Hong Kong protesters

886
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 1: about forty hours before the bill was ostensibly withdrawn. And

887
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 1: then also the state media blamed the West quote unquote

888
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 1: for attempting to kidnap the city. So the narrative here

889
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 1: is still that the Western powers are interfering with domestic affairs,

890
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:23,280
Speaker 1: which is very similar to the line taken in Western

891
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 1: China or the line taken in Tibet. Well, we're gonna

892
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 1: leave you here today at the end of this episode,

893
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:34,879
Speaker 1: just with knowing that it's not over, but we will

894
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: continue looking into it, as should you, especially if you

895
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 1: are interested in uh these kinds of things, and if

896
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:45,320
Speaker 1: you are listening and you are based in Hong Kong,

897
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 1: please do contact us. We want to hear your take

898
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 1: on what's going on on the streets in the field.

899
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 1: Let us know, So write to us, let us know

900
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:58,680
Speaker 1: what you think. You can find us on social We

901
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 1: are at Conspiracy Stuff in most places and on Instagram

902
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 1: at conspiracy Stuff Show you guys have your own Instagram's right.

903
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 1: You can find me at how Now Noel Brown, and

904
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 1: you can find me at Ben Bulling on Instagram at

905
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:14,760
Speaker 1: then Bulling h s W. On Twitter, you can also

906
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 1: join the conversation in real time, usually on our Facebook group.

907
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. It's a lot of fun,

908
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 1: a lot of good memes, a lot of good discussion. There. Um,

909
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 1: all you gotta do is name one or all of us,

910
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: or Paul, Mission Control decad or just say give us

911
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 1: a conspiratorial related pun. There you go. We'll let you

912
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 1: right on in absolutely and if you don't want to

913
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 1: do that, you can give us a call. You might

914
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 1: end up on the air, tell us what you want

915
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 1: us to cover in the future. If you have a

916
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:42,439
Speaker 1: comment about a previous episode or this episode, just call

917
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 1: one eight three three s t d W y t

918
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 1: K really quick. Just saw a tweet from Donald Trump

919
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 1: from August thirteen that says, our intelligence has informed us

920
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 1: that the Chinese government is moving troops to the border

921
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 1: with Hong Kong. Everyone should be calm and safe, So

922
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 1: that specter of military intervention absolutely looms large in this

923
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: story from August. Right there you go. All right, So,

924
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 1: if you don't want to do any of that stuff,

925
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 1: but you still want to write to us or tell

926
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 1: us something, give us a suggestion, critique us, whatever you

927
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: want to do. You can write us a good old

928
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:41,640
Speaker 1: fashioned email. We are conspiracy at i heart radio dot com.

929
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 1: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

930
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 1: of i Heeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts

931
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 1: from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,

932
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,560
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.