1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: On this episode of news World is time to get 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: tough and a round, and I'm delighted to welcome my 3 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: guests somebody I've been for many years who has been 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 1: one of the most balanced, nonpartisan, straight shooting foreign policy 5 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: experts in Washington. Cliff May is the founder and president 6 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, which is 7 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: a nonpartisan policy institute focusing on national security created immediately 8 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: after the nine to eleven attacks in the United States. 9 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: Under Cliff's leadership, the Foundation for the Events of Democracies 10 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,480 Speaker 1: has become one of the nation's most highly regarded think 11 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: tanks and a sought after voice on a remarkably wide 12 00:00:50,000 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: range of national security issues. Well, let's start, Cliff with 13 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: your own personal background. Why you founded the Foundation for 14 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: the Defensive Democracies. Thanks for having me on. As you 15 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: well know, I'm kind of a recovering journalist. I've spent 16 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: many many years as a foreign correspondent to a Washington 17 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: correspondent for the New York Times, which was once upon 18 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: a time a great newspaper. I don't like the state 19 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: it's in now and other media organizations. As you mentioned FDD, 20 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: I got it started just after the attacks of nine 21 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: eleven oh one. I'll just mentioned this interesting thing. The 22 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: idea for it came about earlier in conversations I had 23 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: with people you knew and will remember my young interns 24 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: generally don't Jack Kemp and Jane from Patrick and I 25 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: knew them from my reporting career at the New York Times, 26 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: and I actually had a conversation with them before the 27 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: attacks of nine to eleven because they took the point 28 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: of view and as discussed with me, then America seems 29 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: to be taking a holiday from history, a short piece 30 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: of an end, when we still have enemies out there, 31 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: who hit us in Lebanon in the eighties, who hit 32 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: us in nineteen ninety three in New York City, who's 33 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: hitting the Israelis on our regular basis? What are these 34 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 1: organizations that call themselves jihadist and Islamist? And we talked 35 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: about the need not to let down America's defenses. Then 36 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: nine to eleven happened, and then of course it became 37 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 1: very clear that we had enemies that were serious that 38 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: had not been understood by the intelligence community, the news media, 39 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: by academia. And it was on that basis that I 40 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: was able, somehow or other to put in an operation 41 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: a think tank on terrorism, on the ideologies and the regimes, 42 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: groups and movements that were utilizing terrorism, and it's evolved 43 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: into a national security think tank. In general. We don't 44 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: do tax policy, we don't do healthcare, but we do 45 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: worry about China. Who worry about Turkey? We do worry 46 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: about North Korea. We do worry, of course about the 47 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 1: Islamic Republic of Iran and other threat to America's national security. Well, 48 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: but you've also had I think a remarkable focus, in 49 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: particular on Iran, and the depth of your efforts and 50 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: the number of places where you've actually profoundly affected public policy. 51 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: I've always been fascinated by the quality of the people 52 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: you bring around you. How were you able to recruit 53 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: that kind of a really sophisticated, intelligent and aggressive team. 54 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't easy, especially the beginning, because we 55 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: didn't have much in the way of resources when we 56 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: started out, and I didn't have much in the way 57 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: of background as a think tank entrepreneur. But we had 58 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: a very specific mission and people were attracted to it, 59 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: and I hired the best and smartest people I could, 60 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: and people who were very motivated and very passionate about 61 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: protecting the security of the United States and of our allies, 62 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: and it built up from there. And I would say 63 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: the other thing that, just getting back to what you said, 64 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: initially we were more focused on Sunichi Hotism of Kaida, 65 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: obviously in particular the Taliman and others. But it was 66 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: clear very quickly that Shiah Jihotism was no less of 67 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: a threat and that the Islamic Republic of Iran represented 68 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 1: a regime that was pursuing Shiah jihadism. And I particularly 69 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: knew that because I guess forty two years ago right now, 70 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: I was a foreign correspondent in Iran at the time 71 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: the Islamic Republic was formed. That I arrived in Iran 72 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: just after the Iatola KALMANI came back from France, and 73 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: I was working for Bill Moyer's journal at PBS, you'll 74 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,239 Speaker 1: remember that show. And I was working for CBS Radio News, 75 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: and I was working rehearsed newspapers, and I spent several 76 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: months reporting from Iran. And I have to say I 77 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: did not agree with most of my journalistic colleagues that 78 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 1: this was going to be a humane revolution, that this 79 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 1: is going to be a democratic revolution. That this was 80 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: all going in a good way. That Iatola Kalmani, as 81 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: was said by our diplomats, was Gandhi like figure. I 82 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: didn't see it that way at all, even though I 83 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: was pretty wet behind the ears and young at that 84 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: point forty two years ago. I was right and they 85 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: were wrong. But I had it in the back of 86 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: my mind for a long time, going back to them, 87 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: that we had a threat that we had to face 88 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: from Iran, that when they were chanting death to America 89 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: and death to Israel, they meant what they said. They 90 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: just didn't have the capabilities at that point to achieve 91 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: their goals. But that's of course why they're pursuing the 92 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: clear weapons. Right this for a minute, given how clear 93 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 1: they have been, as you say, you mean, when you're 94 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: in the Mosulist their parliament and you're collectively chanting death 95 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: to America. As a historian, I'm inclined to believe them. 96 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: Why do you think it is so hard for American 97 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: diplomats to accept the depth of hostility that is clearly 98 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: a key part of defining this regime, and it's not 99 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: just there. This as puzzled me a long time. Let 100 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: your thoughts on it. My basic take on it, it's 101 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 1: a lack of imagination and it's in a way wishful thinking. 102 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: You know. I remember when I first went off to 103 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: be a foreign correspondent, something like forty five years ago. 104 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: I had an old pro who said to me, Cliff, is, 105 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: two things you got to understand. One is that around 106 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: the world you're going to meet people just like us, 107 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: and around the world are going to meet people who 108 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 1: are not at all like us. And if you don't 109 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: understand the second part of that equation, you think everybody 110 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: wants peace, everyone wants stability, everybody wants a better life 111 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: for their families. It's hard to believe that what they 112 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: want is your defeat, your annihilation, and their victory. And 113 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: that is the case with jihadi's becoming part of China. 114 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: China's rulers, we would constantly search for these moderates who 115 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: want what we want. And if you listen to recent 116 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: days to Tony Lincoln, the new Secretary of State, he 117 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: is saying that Russia and China and Durant, they all 118 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 1: want stability and Afghanistan, and therefore we should get together 119 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: with them and see if we can work out a 120 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,239 Speaker 1: peace process. And I got to tell you, I'm pretty 121 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: sure that China, Russia, and Irant do not want stability 122 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: in peace. They want to see America fail in Afghanistan 123 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: and as humiliating a way as possible, and an amount 124 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: of bloodshed is good for that, and they seek victory. 125 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: They do not seek peace a peace process. It only 126 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: makes sense if both parties actually want peace. If only 127 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: one does, that party will make concessions and the other 128 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: party will not. And I think we've seen examples of 129 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: this many times and we don't seem to learn from it. 130 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: It's amazing to me. How are you going to go 131 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: through the hostage crisis of seventy nine eighty, then go 132 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: through the bombings in Lebanon, where it was clear that 133 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: they were Iranian operatives who were killing the American Marines. 134 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: Then you go through all the subsequent years of sponsoring Hamas, 135 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: sponsoring has Bellah, having an attack on a Jewish synagogue, 136 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: and Buenos Aires. I mean, every time you turn around 137 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: when they have an opportunity, they have been horrible. And 138 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: yet for some reason, in the Obama years, they convinced 139 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: themselves that the future sis stability was to strengthen the 140 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: forces of dictatorship and tyranny when you think what the 141 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: hold John Kerry as Secretary of State phase, how is 142 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: it possible for somebody to be that consistently and that 143 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: enthusiastically wrong? You know, I can understand in a way 144 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: Obama and carry thinking, Look, if we just show respect 145 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 1: to this regime in Iran, and if we give them 146 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: lots of money, surely what they're going to want to 147 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: prioritize is helping their own people have better lives. And 148 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: if we give them respect, that will mitigate their hostility 149 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: towards us. So let's give it a try. And they did. 150 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: Hundreds of billions of dollars. You remember Obama saying I'm 151 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: good to reach out my hand if you'll only unclench 152 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: your fists. Maybe they're also the belief that there are 153 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: moderates over there who really want to cooperate with us 154 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: didn't happen. The money we gave them was used, and 155 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: he's still being used today to fund terrorism, to fund 156 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: the development of missiles, the fund and illicit nuclear weapons program. 157 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: At this very moment, there are American hostages being held 158 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: in Iran, and Iran has been since ninete eighty four. 159 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: The leading state sponsor of terrorism in the entire world. Recently, 160 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: an Iranian diplomat in Europe was sentenced to prison because 161 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: he was part of a plot to bomb Dissonance in 162 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: exile at a rally outside of Paris. People you and 163 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: I know were due to be there. They got caught. Recently, 164 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: a bomb went off in India near the Israeli embassy. 165 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: The Indian government says this was also the work of Iran. 166 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: We have Houthi rebels backed by Iran in Yemen shooting 167 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: missiles at Saudi oil facilities. All this is going on, 168 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: you would think the current administration would have learned from 169 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 1: the failures of the evolved administration and would be punishing 170 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: the Iranian regime for all this. Instead, they are actively 171 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: right now rewarding that regime and trying to reward the 172 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: regime more. You clearly saw a Trump's strategy which was 173 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: based on strength and confrontation and did not give the 174 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt to the leading supporter of terrorism 175 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: on the planet. But it seems almost like we have reverted, 176 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: almost overnight back to the twenty fifteen Obama strategy. I 177 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: fear that is the case. A lot of the same 178 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: people are now in high offices. I hope they've learned, 179 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: but I'm not sure they have. Again at a time 180 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: when Americans are being held hostage a time and Americans 181 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: are being attacked. A contractor was recently killed by a 182 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: militia backed by the Islamic Republic of Iran. We've had 183 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: dozens and dozens of attacks against Americans interact over the 184 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: past few years by Iranian backed militias. We despite all this, 185 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: what's going on, Well, the International Monumentary Fund is going 186 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: to give five billion dollars to the Iranian regime at 187 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: a time when they're foreign reserves only amount to ten billion. 188 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: They're really under a great strain, and the US does 189 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 1: not appear to be opposing it. And the reports that 190 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: additional billions are going to come from South Korea, Iraq 191 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: and Oman in unfrozen funds unless the US stops that, 192 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: which the US can, but I'm not sure they want to. 193 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: The thing is, you're exactly right. The only way the 194 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: Obama did get the regime in Tehran to come to 195 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,839 Speaker 1: the table was by using pressure, not by using sweet talk. 196 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: And once the pressure was lifted, and that began in 197 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen at the Interim agreement. We never got another 198 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: concession out of the Iranian regime. We gave the US 199 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: gave concession after concession after concession until twenty fifteen, at 200 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: which point you had the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, 201 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: the Iran Deal, which is a very good deal for 202 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 1: the Mulla's rule Iran, a terrible deal for US. It 203 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: does not, as advertised, stop that regime from getting new 204 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: three weapons. It just asks them to take a slightly 205 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: patient pathway, and the various restrictions all sunset. One restriction 206 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: sunset back in October. That's on the regime buying conventional weapons, 207 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: particularly from China and from Russia. The Trump administration said 208 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: you do, that will sanction you. This administration is not 209 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: saying that so they will be able to buy these 210 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: conventional weapons. This is just one of the sunsets that 211 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: we have to look forward to. It's a very bad deal. 212 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: The idea that the Biden administrations should want to just 213 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: get back into that deal, it actually just makes no 214 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: sense at a time when the regime is violating the 215 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: deal which has maintained even though we withdrew it with 216 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: the Europeans, and is violating the nuclear non Proliferation treaty. 217 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: It's a treaty, it has obligations, it has been violating 218 00:12:50,600 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: them for years. The Ranian standpoint, it seems to me 219 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: that hanging tough is working. That they have no incentives 220 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: to shift gears, and every incentive to believe that if 221 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: they will just sort of hold tough, that Biden will 222 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: inch by inch give them more stuff, trying to find 223 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: some magic key to unlock that would lead to a 224 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: fruitful and productive relationship. I mean, do you get that 225 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: same feeling that they've grown actually more intransigent than the 226 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 1: last month and sort of expecting the Biden deministration to 227 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: bid against itself. I think that's exactly right. Their chief 228 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: negotiator is very clever, very experienced. Chavad Zarif, who's there, 229 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: foreign minister. As you may know, his silver tongue, speaks 230 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: very fluent English, lived in the United States for a 231 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: long time, never made any friends when he was here. 232 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: At a certain point, he recognize that Obama and John 233 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: Kerry had to have a deal and he didn't, and 234 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: that's a great position to be in his negotiators. So 235 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: he was able to press all his advantages and get 236 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 1: a deal that was indeed tremendously good for the regime 237 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: because it blocked them from doing nothing. At most, it delayed, 238 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: plus they get hundreds of billions of dollars. How can 239 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: you not like that. I think they believe now again 240 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: that the Biden administration really wants to get back into 241 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: the deal, thinks it's vital and will make more and 242 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: more concessions, and that they don't have to make concessions 243 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: for that. And of course they're maintaining that the Biden 244 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: administration has broken the international law by withdrawing from the 245 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: Joint Comprehensive Planet of Action. That is not true, but 246 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: they're convincing people around the world that it is. This 247 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: was not a treaty who was never signed. It never 248 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: had the support of Congress, It never had a spoort 249 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: of majority of members of Congress or the US public. 250 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: It is an executive agreement. Obama went into it on 251 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: his own authority. Trum pulled out on his own authority. 252 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: The UN may have endorsed it, but the UN does 253 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: not make laws. Globalists want the UN to be able 254 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: to make these kinds of laws for America in the world. 255 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: Actually that's not the case now. Hopefully it never will 256 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: be last thing we want as an organization like the 257 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: U and making laws for Americans, specular laws that go 258 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: against the US Constitution. If you could design your ideal policy, 259 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: what would it be, So it would be what you 260 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: alluded to before. It would be reganesque, it would be 261 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: pieced through strength. We know that maximum pressure is the 262 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: only thing that has ever gotten concessions out of the 263 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: regime in Tehran, So we would start with maximum pressure. 264 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: The Trump administration did apply maximum pressure, or only had 265 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: a short period of time in which to do it, 266 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: and it was working. I would continue to do what 267 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: I would make it very clear to the move is 268 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: that you've got a choice here. Your economy can implode 269 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: and you will lose your power, or you can make 270 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: serious concessions. So we know that a you do not 271 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: get nuclear weapons, you're not to have them. You do 272 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: not have the ability to make nuclear weapons. Because if 273 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: you have nuclear weapons and the ability to make goclear weapons, 274 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: well I don't blame that the Saudis and the Turks 275 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: and others rule as well, and then we have an 276 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: arms race and nuclear arms will get loose and be used, 277 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: which is not what we want. I would also say 278 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: as the Trump administration, there are other things you have 279 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: to do. You cannot be the leading state sponsor and 280 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: terrorism and to have a good relationship with US, and 281 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: we're going to allow you to be in commercial and 282 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: other good relations with America and other nations of the 283 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: free world. You cannot hold hostages. You cannot get ransom 284 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: for hostages either. You become a good accurate We do 285 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: everything we can to employ your economy. That we know 286 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: that the people who ran after more than forty years 287 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: under an Islamist government where the most radical members of 288 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: the clarity are the ruling class, they're fed up with 289 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: that and it would like something else with more rights 290 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: and more freedoms and more representation. So I would push 291 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: as hard as I can. I would isolate them as 292 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: much as I can. I would isolate their economy as 293 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: much as I can until we get a decent preach there. 294 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: Because the alternative is that we simply accept the idea 295 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: that terror sponsors nations should be walking the holes of 296 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: the UN making demands doing business with US, as if 297 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: that's perfectly natural and additional them given the capacity of 298 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: dictatorships to survive. And I look at Cuba, I look 299 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: at Venezuela, North Korea. I mean, realistically, you can put 300 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: enough pressure on them to make them uncomfortable. But can 301 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: you really put enough pressure on Iran to make it 302 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: susceptible to regime change? Well, I think you can. I 303 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: think the alternative you don't want, which is to normalize 304 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: these regimes. If you had a neighbor who was beating 305 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: up his wife and children, who is coming over your 306 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: house and stealing your things, who you know is involved 307 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: in enlicit activities, would you invite them to dinner, would 308 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: you do business with them? Would you go on summer 309 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: vacation with them? I don't think so. I think you 310 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 1: would stay at arm's length. The free country of the world, 311 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: certainly at I should at very least stay at arms 312 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: length from the despicable and tyrannical regimes of the world. 313 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: And by the way, they had Senator Tom Cotton and 314 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: Representative Mike Gallagher. They both formulated resolutions in the Senate 315 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: and the House respectively, saying absolutely no sanctions relief for 316 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 1: this regime in Tehran so long as it's holding Americans 317 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: hostage and sponsoring terrorism in various countries around the world, 318 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: we just are not going to do business with these 319 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: guys if that only means that they're poor and weaker, 320 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: that's something. All the time that Trump was not allowing 321 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 1: them to participate in the world economy and not giving 322 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 1: them money and not letting them sell their oil at 323 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,719 Speaker 1: the going rates. That was a good thing because at 324 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: least they had less money to give to Hamasa heslot 325 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: to Hoothi rebels, to use for terrorism, to use for 326 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 1: missile development, missiles that can carry nuclear weapons. They at 327 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 1: least put more strain on them. We don't want to 328 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: fund and subsidize their activities that we would consider it 329 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,719 Speaker 1: to be nefarious in the line. In that kind of context, 330 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: if you have a Biden administration moving towards appeasement, which 331 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: is what it is, what do you think the options 332 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: are for Israel faced with a genuine danger that the 333 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: US will tolerate a nuclear armed Iran. Well, Israel has 334 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: for a long time several principles. One is that Israel 335 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: will defend itself, not rely on anybody to defend it. 336 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,360 Speaker 1: Israel will be disappointed if the Biden approach to the 337 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: Tehran is one of appeasement. As you say, appeasement generally 338 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: does not succeed in its efforts, they will be looking 339 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: at what their military including cyber capabilities are and how 340 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: they can the least delay, if not destroy, nuclear weapons 341 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: capabilities in the Islamic Republic of Iran a fair way 342 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: towards that in the past, as you know, including we 343 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: believe the assassination of the leading military nuclear weapons scientists 344 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: in the country a very interesting and elaborate operation. We 345 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: don't know you and I all their military capabilities. They 346 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: play those cards close to the best I know. They 347 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: don't have the abilities that the US has if the 348 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 1: US wanted to knockout all nuclear weapons capabilities. But the Israelis, 349 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: as you know, they like to surprise their enemies and 350 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: surprise their friends, and they may want to go ahead 351 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: because they will protect their population from the genocide that 352 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: is advocated and incited by the regime in Tehran on 353 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: an almost daily basis. Just this week, the regime is 354 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: talking about pulverizing Tel Aviv and Hypha. And by the way, 355 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: Hypha is a city of a mixed Arab Jewish From 356 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: nowhere else in the world, Arabs and Jews get along 357 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: quite as well as they do in Hypha. They live 358 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: side by side. That's what coaxes, but that doesn't matter 359 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: a bit to the regime there. So the Israelis are 360 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: going to be looking at their options. To the Israelis, 361 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: and it's certainly under Netta, who have never been triggered happy, 362 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 1: they were fast to go ahead. But at a certain 363 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: point they may feel that they have to act unilaterally, 364 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: and I think we'll do so if they think their 365 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: existence is in danger, because the Islamic propolico Iran represents 366 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: an existential threat to Israel, as it does, by the way, 367 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: to the Saudis, to the Bahrainies, to the Emiratis, which 368 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,360 Speaker 1: is a big part of the reason they are all 369 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: coming together in an alliance now, also an alliance that 370 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: the Trump administration understood the necessity for and was able 371 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: to facilitate. I don't know what these earlies will do. 372 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: I think that they will not sit quiet and wait 373 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: for themselves to be destroyed. Yeah, I mean it does. See. 374 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: I mean this is the greatest existential threats since the Holocaust. Yes, 375 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: and I think the Israelis know very well the Jewish 376 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: people cannot have two Holocausts within less than a century 377 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: and possibly survive. And if we will do what we 378 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: have to defend ourselves, and if they go down, they'll 379 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: go down fighting, rather than go down the way they 380 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 1: did during the August Do you think the psychological momentum 381 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:29,360 Speaker 1: inside the Biden team is so great that they're almost 382 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: like on a railroad track where they can't get off. 383 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: I think it's a serious possibility. It's sort of It's 384 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: disappointing to me because Jake Sullivan, who's the National Security Advisor, 385 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: and Tony Lincoln was the Secretary of State, strike me 386 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 1: in general as smart and sober guys, and some of 387 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: the people they've picked to assist them, I think are 388 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: unrealistic lea perhaps sympathetic towards the regime and Iran, you know, 389 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: taking the you that. Yeah, I think it was in 390 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: a way defensible back in the Obama administration, but it's 391 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 1: proved to be wrong. Which is these guys they just 392 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: want some respect, They just want a little equity. They 393 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: just want us to recognize their power. You remember Obama said, 394 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: you know that the regime in Tehran should share the 395 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 1: neighborhood with the Saudis. Oh yeah, this is like, mister Rogers, 396 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 1: we all share the neighborhood. This will be fine. They 397 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: don't want to share the neighborhood. This regime. They don't 398 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: want peace, they don't want the stability to want to 399 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: hedge the money in the Middle East. They want to 400 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: become a world power. They are Islamis and Jihatis, which 401 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: means no less than the Islamic state, no less in 402 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: al Qaeda. Did they want the re establishment of Islamic 403 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: supremacy in the world, recalling very well as you do 404 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 1: that for a thousand years, really the various Islamic empires 405 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: dominated most of the civilized world. Well, given those realities, 406 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: what should the Republicans in Congress be doing? They should 407 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: be doing what Tom Copna is doing, and what Mike 408 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: Gallagher's doing and other and making it very clear that 409 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: we are not going to go alone with the funding, 410 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: with the subsidizing of the leading terrorist regime. We are 411 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: not going to help support the missile program and the 412 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons program. We are going to do everything we 413 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: can to block it. We have sanctions in place that 414 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: have come to place over years and years. These are 415 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: sanctions not just for the nuclear repons program, but for terrorism. 416 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: We're going to ask our democratic colleagues, We're going to 417 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: ask the administration, you know, the terrorism continues, Are you 418 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: really going to lift those sanctions that are there because 419 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 1: this is a terrorist regime and ignore the fact that 420 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: it's going on? Are you really going to fund this 421 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: regime and make it as hard as possible to do that? 422 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: Already there are many companies around there that have and 423 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 1: this is going on since John Kerry was out there 424 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: trying to drum up business for the Islamic Republic, we said, well, 425 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: we don't want to invest in Iran at this point 426 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 1: because it could be a Republican majority. Again, it could 427 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: be a Republican presented again, it will put our money 428 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: in there. We're going to get whip sought. Will just wait, 429 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 1: let's call the sanctions wall of deterrence. It's just not 430 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: a safe place to be in. Businesses may want to 431 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 1: consider is it a good idea to be doing close 432 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: business opening offices with the terrorist regime? Now? Again, if 433 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: you have an administration that says we're no longer bothered 434 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: by terrorism, we're no longer bothered by hostage holding, even 435 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: if it's Americans, we're no longer bothered by any of this. 436 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 1: We're just going to get back at bed with this regime. 437 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: But that may encourage businesses to do it, but they 438 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: may not. But the Republicans in Congress should force ware say, 439 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: going back into lifting sanctions as an incentive, we will oppose, 440 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: and we hope some of our Democratic colleagues will oppose 441 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 1: it with us. And if there is to be a 442 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: new nuclear arms deal or reversion to the JCPOA, it 443 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 1: should be submitted as a treaty. Clearly, it is usually consequential. 444 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: It's not enough of the President to say I like 445 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 1: it in the UN General Assembly or the UN Security 446 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: Council likes that Americans can gound. That's not enough. So 447 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: I again, peace through strength and hold firm against the 448 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: administration if its desires are to fund and subsidize a 449 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: terrorist regime and allow them to take a patient pathway 450 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: to the acquisition of nuclear weapons and missiles that can 451 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 1: deliver them anywhere on Earth. It strikes me that the 452 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: longer we've talked, the greater their capacity has become to 453 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: do just what you said. This is a dictatorship which 454 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: in the not too distant future we'll be able to 455 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: directly threaten Paris, London, and New York given their track record. 456 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: There's this primial argument about deterrence and the idea that 457 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: you don't want to commit suicide, therefore you won't do anything. 458 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: On the other hand, this is a regime which at 459 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: one point had a leader who would have, in fact 460 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: leefully accepted the swap of major cities in Iran in 461 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: return for Tel Aviv Jerusalem, New York. I think, other 462 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,679 Speaker 1: than the North Queans, who are sufficiently unknowable that we 463 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: can't actually calculate, it seems to me that of all 464 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: the other dictatorships around the planet, this is the most dangerous. 465 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: I think that's true. It look it would be useful 466 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: for this administration to seriously pursuit piece through strength. That 467 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: would mean deterrence. That would mean letting the Iranian regime 468 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: know that you cannot rule out the possibility that we 469 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,719 Speaker 1: will send bombers over to take out the facilities. We 470 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: know where they are. I'll take a few weeks, but 471 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: we'll do them. Doesn't mean boots on the ground. It 472 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: just means we're going to have a lot of rubble shaking. 473 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 1: They should at least think that's a possibility. They didn't 474 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: at all with Obama. I doubt they do it. By 475 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: I noticed that. I think today they had to be 476 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 1: fifty two going into the region. Now, I'm actually puzzled 477 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: by that. You know more about this than I do. 478 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 1: But I don't see one strategic bomber other than a symbol. 479 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: I don't see it as a practice he'll thread of 480 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 1: any kind. Am I missing something? In terms of the 481 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: B fifty two going over the region? I think that's 482 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: message sending. It was a company of anything in israelis 483 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: It's similar to what was done in Syria where one 484 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 1: of the proxy militias of Iran got hit. I don't 485 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 1: know how many people have actually got killed, but it said, well, 486 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: you can't rule this out under a Biden administration, which 487 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 1: is good. I commend them for doing that. I commend 488 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: them for sending these messages. I don't know that jar 489 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: Reef and Supreme Leader Cammentate don't say, ah, they're bluffing, 490 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 1: don't worry about it. But the more you do like that, 491 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 1: the more they have to calculate and say how much 492 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: are we going to provoke them? And again, if you 493 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: couple back with economic pressure, you weaken them, and that's 494 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: the best you can hope for. I mean, I really 495 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: think in that sense that Biden has been much more 496 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: aggressive than I expect them to be in the Middle 497 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: East and more willing to use force, and hopefully that 498 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: will continue. I'd like to see that continue. It's very 499 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: important that he doesn't send the message that forces off 500 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: the table. We don't have the guts to do that. 501 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: So the House on occasion, when you look back to 502 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, they had to four hundred and nineteen to 503 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: three vote in favor of sanctions. That's a pretty remarkable 504 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: majority given the normal splits right now in the Congress. 505 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: Do you think that there is a solid majority in 506 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: both the House and Senate for doing what it takes 507 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: to respond if the Iranians act militaristically solid majority, I 508 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: don't know. I do think there's a recognition in Congress 509 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: that this is a terrorist regime, and that's going to 510 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: make it difficult for President Biden to reward the regime 511 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: at this point, though he apparently seems to be trying, 512 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: thinking that's an incentive in terms of the use of 513 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: military force. I think it's kind of unknowable. We have 514 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: a new Secretary of Defense. I'm not quite sure how 515 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: he sees all this. I would imagine that the Pentagon 516 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: has contingency plans on the shelf for many different things. 517 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: It may depend on how provocative the regime actually is, 518 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: and there's a lot we don't know, of course about 519 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,719 Speaker 1: Biden as president. One last thing I want to ask 520 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: you about is how do you see the role of 521 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: the Chinese evolving in what's happening in Iran troublesome. I 522 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: think that Xijing Ping is China's ruler with more power 523 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: than any Chinese rulerstistmounts the tongue thinks it's always Google 524 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: when America is distracted and has various problems and annoyances 525 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: in other parts of the world, because then they can 526 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: do less about what we're doing. The People's Republic for 527 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: China has grand ambitions. They have violated international and the 528 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: most basic way in Hong Kong with a treaty obligation, 529 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: they had two systems. Now Hong Kong has no more 530 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: autonomy than does Shanghai or Beijing or anywhere else. They're 531 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: threatening Taiwan. The more America is tied down other places, 532 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: the less America can help Taiwan defend itself. They are 533 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: aggressively taking over the UN and various national organizations because 534 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: they want a new world order dominated by them. And 535 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: by other totalitarians with whom they are very much league. 536 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: You know what they're doing, the leaguers, it's been called, 537 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: even by Divide Administration, genocide. And yet they're sitting now 538 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: on the UN Human Rights Council proudly as a defender 539 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: in rights. And China is a problem. I don't know 540 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: that China wants death to America, but it wants a 541 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: diminished America. That's a market for It's good, not much use, yeah, 542 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: I mean, it's certainly the greatest competitor we have, just 543 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: in terms of share capability. Listen, I want to thank 544 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: you because I do think what you're doing and what 545 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: your organization does is extraordinary important. I mean, the foundation 546 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: of defensive democracy. Whether it's with China, or it's with Iran, 547 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: or it's with Russia or in Syria. I mean, you've 548 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: very consistently been doing solid work and it's kind of amazing. 549 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: Thank you. Nude is always a pleasure to talk to you. 550 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to know you for all these many 551 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: years and learn from you for all these years and 552 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: continue to do so. So thank you. Thank you. To 553 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: my guests, Cliff May, you can read more about the 554 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: Foundation for the Defensive Democracies and the Iran Deal on 555 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 1: our show page at newtsworld dot com. News World is 556 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: produced by Gingwish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer 557 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: is Debbie Myers, our producer is Garnsey Sloan, and our 558 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was 559 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at 560 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: Gingwish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope 561 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: you'll go to Apple Podcasts and both rate us with 562 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: five stars and give us a review so others can 563 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of Newtsworld 564 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: can sign up for my three free weekly columns at 565 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: Gingwish three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm new Gingwich. 566 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: This is Newsworld