WEBVTT - S01 Episode 2: Resurrected Dreams

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<v Speaker 1>Our ability to comprehend death is in many ways what

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<v Speaker 1>makes us the self aware human beings that we are.

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<v Speaker 1>For some, the realization that our life, and maybe even

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<v Speaker 1>all life, may one day come to an end, can

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<v Speaker 1>be a paralyzing fear. For all of us, it is

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<v Speaker 1>the greatest of mysteries. The law of conversion dictates that

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<v Speaker 1>energy can neither die nor be created. Instead, it merely

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<v Speaker 1>changes from one form to another. So although there is

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<v Speaker 1>little doubt what fate awaits us all in a material sense,

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<v Speaker 1>understanding what happens to our consciousness beyond that zero point

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<v Speaker 1>has proved an altogether more difficult beast to pin down.

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<v Speaker 1>It is an unknown that calls into question the very

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<v Speaker 1>nature of consciousness itself. In his studies of dream theory,

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<v Speaker 1>the psychiatrist Carl Jung draws the distinction between personal dreams

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<v Speaker 1>and larger, more universal dreams. The theory suggests the possible

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<v Speaker 1>existence of some kind of collective unconscious, a condition that

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<v Speaker 1>he believed was demonstrated by a set of archetypes that

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<v Speaker 1>we are all prone to recognize from our deepest unconscious states.

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<v Speaker 1>When put like that, it's hard not to wander just

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<v Speaker 1>whose dreams exactly are we dreaming. You're listening to Unexplained

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm Richard McClain Smith. It could be said that

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<v Speaker 1>all stories are ultimately about one thing, death, none more

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<v Speaker 1>so than the stories we tell each other concerning what

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<v Speaker 1>awaits us are to life. It is a theme that

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<v Speaker 1>can be found in stories told across every community and

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<v Speaker 1>culture from as far back as we can remember. For

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<v Speaker 1>Western and Middle Eastern cultures, these stories have tended to

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<v Speaker 1>promote the idea of some form of continued life that

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<v Speaker 1>remains true to our personal sense of ourselves. Where we

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<v Speaker 1>end up is dependent on our actions in life, with

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<v Speaker 1>the options invariably divided between either a heaven or a hell.

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<v Speaker 1>For the ancient Greeks, you might find yourself traveling across

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<v Speaker 1>the River Styx before being led to the Vale of

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<v Speaker 1>Mourning or the fields of Elysium. For the Egyptians, entry

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<v Speaker 1>to the paradisiacal Aru was granted only to those whose

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<v Speaker 1>heart was as light as the ostrich feather that belonged

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<v Speaker 1>to the goddess my Art. For followers of Far Eastern

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<v Speaker 1>teachings such as Hinduism, Taoism, and Buddhism, it is belief

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<v Speaker 1>in Samsara which holds sway the infinite cycle of birth,

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<v Speaker 1>life and death, or what is more commonly known as

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<v Speaker 1>a reincarnation. Some believe that proof of reincarnation can be

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<v Speaker 1>found through the practice of past life regression. Although common

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<v Speaker 1>in ancient India, it wasn't until the teachings of occultist

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<v Speaker 1>and founder of the Theosophical Society Helena Bulatsky that the

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<v Speaker 1>idea gained prominence in modern European society. Famous accounts such

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<v Speaker 1>as those of Wisconsin housewife Virginia Tie, who claim to

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<v Speaker 1>have lived as a nineteenth century Irish woman named Bridie Murphy,

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<v Speaker 1>helped to bring this controversial phenomenon into the mainstream. However,

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<v Speaker 1>many such accounts have been latterly dismissed as simple cases

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<v Speaker 1>of false memories recollections of names and places that have

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<v Speaker 1>been subconsciously absorbed. But there are a few cases that

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<v Speaker 1>have not been so easy to dismiss, cases that have

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<v Speaker 1>nothing to do with hypnotic regression. On the fifth of

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<v Speaker 1>May nineteen fifty seven, in the north of England, a

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<v Speaker 1>beautiful spring day is breaking over the quiet market town

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<v Speaker 1>of Hexham. John and Florence Pollock are busy readying their

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<v Speaker 1>children for church. Their two daughters Joanna seven and Jacqueline eleven,

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<v Speaker 1>are especially excited by the promise of an afternoon trip

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<v Speaker 1>to their favorite playground. On hearing the doorbell, Jacqueline answers

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<v Speaker 1>the door to find her young friend Anthony standing on

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<v Speaker 1>the doorstep. He invites Joanna and Jacqueline to walk with

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<v Speaker 1>him up to the church. Although they would usually travel

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<v Speaker 1>to Saint Mary's as a family, John and Florence saw

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<v Speaker 1>no reason not to let the three young children walk

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<v Speaker 1>on ahead. As the loving parents waved them off, they

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<v Speaker 1>couldn't possibly have known the tragedy that was about to

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<v Speaker 1>befall them. On the other side of town, a woman's

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<v Speaker 1>life was spiraling out of control. It's not known if

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<v Speaker 1>Marjorie Wynn had always suffered from severe depression, but clearly

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<v Speaker 1>the death of her husband five years previously had been

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<v Speaker 1>a crippling blow. Despite moving to Hexham for a fresh start,

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<v Speaker 1>things became worse after Marjorie was judged too ill to

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<v Speaker 1>retain custody of her two teenage daughters. It was to

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<v Speaker 1>prove the final straw. Considering how uncommon it was for

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<v Speaker 1>a mother to lose custody of her children at this time,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not hard to speculate on Marjorie's state of mind

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<v Speaker 1>as she stepped into her car that fateful Sunday morning,

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<v Speaker 1>a state of mind not helped by the bottle of

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<v Speaker 1>pain killers and barbiturates that she had just before ingested.

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<v Speaker 1>As the three young children walked hand in hand towards

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<v Speaker 1>the church, Marjorie's car turned speedily into the road. As

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<v Speaker 1>it neared the children, it swung into the opposite lane,

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<v Speaker 1>jumped the curb, and careered straight into them. There was

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<v Speaker 1>a moment of stunned silence before the first screams of

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<v Speaker 1>onlookers cut through the air. Joanna and Jacqueline were killed instantly.

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<v Speaker 1>Nine year old Anthony Layden, who had been due to

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<v Speaker 1>act as older boy that morning, died in the ambulance

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<v Speaker 1>on the way to the hospital. After a short police investigation,

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<v Speaker 1>Marjorie was committed to a psychiatric unit after it was

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<v Speaker 1>found that her actions had been deliberate. In the days

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<v Speaker 1>that followed, the small, close knit community was united in

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<v Speaker 1>its grief for the young victims. For John and Florence Pollock,

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<v Speaker 1>the parents of Joanna and Jacqueline, the sense of loss

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<v Speaker 1>would have been unimaginable for two devout Catholics, there was

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<v Speaker 1>some solace to be found in the belief that their

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<v Speaker 1>two girls might, at the very least now be in

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<v Speaker 1>a better place. It makes what happened next or the

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<v Speaker 1>more extraordinary, and is a mystery that remains to this

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<v Speaker 1>day unexplained. After an incredibly difficult eight months, the Pollock's

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<v Speaker 1>grief was somewhat lifted when Florence discovered that she was

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<v Speaker 1>pregnant again. The couple could not have been more delighted

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<v Speaker 1>by the news. However, not long into the pregnancy, John

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<v Speaker 1>developed a peculiar feeling about the impending birth. Despite being

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<v Speaker 1>told by the obstetrician that there was only one beating

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<v Speaker 1>heart inside Florence's womb, John was insistent that she would

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<v Speaker 1>give birth to a set of twins. Sure enough, much

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<v Speaker 1>to the surprise of everybody except John, on the fourth

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<v Speaker 1>of October nineteen fifty eight, Florence gave birth to two

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<v Speaker 1>baby girls, later named Gillian and Jennifer. The twins were monozygotic,

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<v Speaker 1>or what is more commonly known as identical, having developed

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<v Speaker 1>from the same egg, and yet they showed remarkable physical differences,

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<v Speaker 1>differences that correlated perfectly to Joanna and Jacqueline. One morning,

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<v Speaker 1>While looking after young Jennifer, John noticed a peculiar mark

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<v Speaker 1>on her forehead, just above the nose. The mark was

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<v Speaker 1>identical to a scar that Jacqueline had received after falling

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<v Speaker 1>from her tricycle when she was two years old. The

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<v Speaker 1>mark may well have gone unnoticed if it wasn't for

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that Jennifer had also recently developed a very

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<v Speaker 1>distinct birthmark on her left hip. The brown coloring of

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<v Speaker 1>the skin, shaped like a thumb print, was indistinguishable from

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<v Speaker 1>a birthmark that Jacqueline once had in the exact same spot,

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<v Speaker 1>and the similarities did not end there. Despite being identical.

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<v Speaker 1>Gillian's body was slender like Joanna, whereas Jennifer was stocky

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<v Speaker 1>like Jacqueline. Where Gillian's gait was supply footed, again like Joanna,

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<v Speaker 1>Jennifer's was ordinary, just like Jacqueline. And it wasn't only

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<v Speaker 1>their physical attributes. Their personalities, too, seemed to precisely mirror

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<v Speaker 1>those of their two deceased sisters. Joanna, who had been

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<v Speaker 1>older by four years, was naturally more mature and protective

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<v Speaker 1>over Jacqueline, although Gillian was only ten minutes older than Jennifer.

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<v Speaker 1>Their relationship exhibited the very same dynamic but it wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>until the girls were able to speak that things would

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<v Speaker 1>turn very strange. Indeed, are you always taking care of

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<v Speaker 1>your family? Do you often take care of others and

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<v Speaker 1>not yourself? Now it's time to take care of yourself.

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<v Speaker 1>Three months after the twins were born, John and Florence

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<v Speaker 1>moved the family to the nearby town of Whitley Bay.

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<v Speaker 1>When they took the girls to visit Hexham a few

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<v Speaker 1>years later, something extraordinary occurred. As John accounts, as he

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<v Speaker 1>was walking with the twins up the hill towards Saint

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<v Speaker 1>Mary's Church, one turned to the other and said, the

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<v Speaker 1>school is up here where we used to go to

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<v Speaker 1>and just around the back is the playground. At the time,

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<v Speaker 1>not only would they have been too small to see

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<v Speaker 1>the school from where they were standing, but there was

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<v Speaker 1>also a large wall obscuring their view. Then, as they

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<v Speaker 1>passed the church, the children continued to point out landmarks

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<v Speaker 1>that they would never have seen before. They pointed out

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<v Speaker 1>the grounds of Hexham Abbey and demanded to visit their

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<v Speaker 1>favorite playground that was located on the far side of

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<v Speaker 1>the hill. For John, the evidence was undeniable. Joanna and

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<v Speaker 1>Jacqueline had been returned to them in the form of

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<v Speaker 1>Gillian and Jennifer. Florence, on the other hand, refused to

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<v Speaker 1>believe to accept the bizarre events and startling coincidences as

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<v Speaker 1>evidence of reincarnation was in short heresy. The more committed

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<v Speaker 1>Catholic of the pair, She was determined that nothing would

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<v Speaker 1>break her core belief, but all that was about to

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<v Speaker 1>change when Joanna and Jacqueline died. Florence found it too

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<v Speaker 1>unbearable to be surrounded by their things, in particular their

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<v Speaker 1>toys that had once been such a symbol of joy

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<v Speaker 1>and life that were now just reminders of the horrific tragedy,

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<v Speaker 1>so she packed them into a box and stored them

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<v Speaker 1>away in the attic. By the time the twins were four,

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<v Speaker 1>Florence felt able again to live with the toys and

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<v Speaker 1>retrieve them from their storage. With the twins beside her,

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<v Speaker 1>she opened the box and was astonished that the two

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<v Speaker 1>girls were able to name every one of the toys

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<v Speaker 1>that used to belong to their sisters. But it wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>until Florence came across a far more disturbing scene that

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<v Speaker 1>her mind was finally made up. Approaching the children's playroom

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<v Speaker 1>one morning, Florence heard the twins in quiet conversation amongst themselves.

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<v Speaker 1>What she saw when she looked into the room has

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<v Speaker 1>haunted her to this day. There on the floor lay Jennifer,

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<v Speaker 1>with her arms and legs sprawled out, as Gillian crouched

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<v Speaker 1>down beside her and cradled her head in her hands.

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<v Speaker 1>The blood is coming out of your eyes, she said,

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<v Speaker 1>that's where the car hits you. In nineteen sixty two,

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<v Speaker 1>the story of the Pollock Twins was brought to the

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<v Speaker 1>attention of US Canadian professor of psychiatry Ian Stephenson. Stephenson,

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<v Speaker 1>from the University of Virginia's School of Medicine, had developed

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<v Speaker 1>an international reputation for his investigations into alleged cases of reincarnation.

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<v Speaker 1>He had even created a specialized department known as the

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<v Speaker 1>Division of Perceptual Studies to better conduct his research. Despite

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<v Speaker 1>the oddity of his work, Professor Stephenson was well respected

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<v Speaker 1>in the psychiatric community at one time, being described in

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<v Speaker 1>the Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent

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<v Speaker 1>Psychiatry as a distinguished psychiatrist and scholar. For Stephenson, what

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<v Speaker 1>stood out most about the Pollock's story was its provenance.

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<v Speaker 1>In post war Britain, the notion of reincarn nation was

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<v Speaker 1>still a fairly alien concept, more commonly reserved for followers

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<v Speaker 1>of the exotic Eastern philosophies of Hinduism and Buddhism. For

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<v Speaker 1>a devout Catholic couple to announce in nineteen sixty two

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<v Speaker 1>that their daughters were living proof of reincarnation was truly remarkable. Stephenson,

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<v Speaker 1>who studied the family from nineteen sixty four to nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>eighty five, was also particularly interested in the scar and

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<v Speaker 1>birthmark found on Jennifer's body. The transference of such marks

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<v Speaker 1>had become a recurring feature in many of his case studies.

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<v Speaker 1>The fact that Jennifer and Jillian were supposedly monosigotic made

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<v Speaker 1>the existence of Jennifer's marks all the more compelling. In

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<v Speaker 1>spite of all this evidence, it would be far too

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<v Speaker 1>simple to declare the story of the polit twins as

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<v Speaker 1>an open and shut case for the existence of reincarnation.

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<v Speaker 1>It would, of course not be beyond the realms of

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<v Speaker 1>possibility that the magnitude of John and Florence's grief may

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<v Speaker 1>have played a large part. Wanting to believe that their

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<v Speaker 1>daughters had in some way been returned to them would have,

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<v Speaker 1>no doubt brought a great comfort as well. A point

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<v Speaker 1>frequently left out of the story as that John and

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<v Speaker 1>Florence were not only the parents of two girls, but

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<v Speaker 1>in fact had six children, with the twins sharing their

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<v Speaker 1>home with four brothers. Although the parents maintain that they

0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:36.120
<v Speaker 1>never openly discussed their recently deceased daughters. It is hard

0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:39.320
<v Speaker 1>to believe that the four boys kept an equally quiet counsel.

0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:43.600
<v Speaker 1>It would be impossible to tell just what may or

0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.400
<v Speaker 1>may not have been projected onto the conscious or even

0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.760
<v Speaker 1>subconscious minds of the young twins growing up under the

0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:55.920
<v Speaker 1>shadow of such a harrowing family tragedy. It is also

0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.000
<v Speaker 1>known that John became interested in the idea of reincarnation

0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:02.520
<v Speaker 1>sometime before the death of his daughters, so much so,

0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.480
<v Speaker 1>in fact, that he had begun to question his commitment

0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:10.800
<v Speaker 1>to his Catholic faith. And yet it seems extraordinary that

0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:14.280
<v Speaker 1>a set of genetically identical twins drawn from the same

0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:18.600
<v Speaker 1>egg would exhibit such fundamental differences at such an early stage,

0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:23.639
<v Speaker 1>both physically and in terms of personality. Doctor Jim Tucker,

0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.600
<v Speaker 1>a research partner of Professor Stephenson, has also pointed out

0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.639
<v Speaker 1>that for Florence, it was a constant struggle to reconcile

0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.680
<v Speaker 1>the evidence of her own eyes with the church's edict

0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:38.920
<v Speaker 1>that belief in reincarnation was a mortal sin. The possibility

0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:42.320
<v Speaker 1>that the girls had been reincarnated brought no comfort to

0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:46.080
<v Speaker 1>her whatsoever, and as such she should be regarded as

0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:51.000
<v Speaker 1>an excellent impartial witness. By nineteen eighty five, the polit

0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:53.640
<v Speaker 1>twins had ceased to feel a connection to any sense

0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:57.159
<v Speaker 1>of a former life, and Professor Stephenson's studies came to

0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:10.679
<v Speaker 1>an inconclusive end. In ancient Aboriginal culture, people speak of

0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:14.840
<v Speaker 1>something known as eternal dreaming. For them, a person's actions

0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.919
<v Speaker 1>during their lifetime have no bearing on the destination of

0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:22.840
<v Speaker 1>their spirit in the afterlife. There is no heaven nor hell. Rather,

0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:26.200
<v Speaker 1>they believe in the indestructible nature of the human spirit.

0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.040
<v Speaker 1>Although the spirits of the recently deceased may retain their

0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:34.800
<v Speaker 1>individual identities immediately after death, it is regarded as only

0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:39.080
<v Speaker 1>a temporary state. Perhaps in life, as far as we

0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:42.160
<v Speaker 1>know it, we might imagine ourselves a version of Kurt

0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:47.400
<v Speaker 1>Ernegut's hero major Alan Rice from the story Thanersphere, our

0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:51.320
<v Speaker 1>bodies nothing but soft machine receptors, tuning into the lives

0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.600
<v Speaker 1>of the dead as they wait to be absorbed into

0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:59.240
<v Speaker 1>the one universal consciousness. Or perhaps the explanation is something

0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:04.080
<v Speaker 1>else entirely, something that might allow for Young's archetypes and

0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:07.720
<v Speaker 1>the collective unconscious, but from a far more material point

0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:12.639
<v Speaker 1>of view. Prior to Charles Darwin's Origins of the Species.

0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:16.560
<v Speaker 1>Another naturalist by the name of John Baptiste Lamark had

0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:19.800
<v Speaker 1>been causing a stir with an evolutionary theory of his own.

0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:24.320
<v Speaker 1>He suggested that an organism might pass characteristics to his

0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:28.720
<v Speaker 1>offspring not only through internal genetic mechanisms, but also through

0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.720
<v Speaker 1>external influences that it would have been effected by during

0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:37.480
<v Speaker 1>its lifetime. Although the theory known as Lamarchism gained some traction,

0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:42.159
<v Speaker 1>it was widely discredited after the inception of Darwinism, and

0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:47.040
<v Speaker 1>so it was destined to remain. However, a number of

0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.960
<v Speaker 1>recent discoveries in the newly fashionable study of epigenetics has

0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:55.119
<v Speaker 1>led to somewhat of a Lamarchist come back. Similar to

0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:59.280
<v Speaker 1>what Lamarque proposed. Epigenetics is the study of external and

0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:03.280
<v Speaker 1>environmental factors on the behavior of genes and their relationship

0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:08.600
<v Speaker 1>to our selves. In twenty and thirteen, a paper titled

0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:14.080
<v Speaker 1>Parental olfactory experience Influenced Behavior and Neural structure in Subsequent

0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:19.000
<v Speaker 1>Generations appeared in the leading medical journal Nature. The paper

0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:22.879
<v Speaker 1>was written by neurobiologist Kerry Wrestler and his research partner

0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:27.280
<v Speaker 1>Brian Das. What Wrestler and Dias had discovered was that

0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:30.399
<v Speaker 1>by conditioning a set of mice to associate ascent with

0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:34.320
<v Speaker 1>the specific trauma, in this case, a small electrical shock,

0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:37.760
<v Speaker 1>the fear they would then associate with this scent would

0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:41.760
<v Speaker 1>incredibly be passed down to at least two subsequent generations

0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:57.600
<v Speaker 1>of pups. Taking this extraordinary discovery into account, might it

0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:00.840
<v Speaker 1>be possible that not only do we inherit our grandparents

0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:04.840
<v Speaker 1>noses and eyebrows, but in some way their thoughts as well.

0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.000
<v Speaker 1>For Jillian and Jennifer Pollock, is it beyond the realms

0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:13.679
<v Speaker 1>of possibility that rather than being the reincarnated souls of

0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:18.840
<v Speaker 1>their recently deceased sisters, they had instead merely inherited their parents'

0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:24.480
<v Speaker 1>own memories of their young daughters. There is little doubt

0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:27.359
<v Speaker 1>that in a physiological sense, we are all in some

0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:30.239
<v Speaker 1>way the reincarnation of those that have come before us,

0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:35.080
<v Speaker 1>But perhaps might we also be carrying their dreams as well.

0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:54.040
<v Speaker 1>This episode of Unexplained was produced by me Richard McLane smith.

0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:58.040
<v Speaker 1>Unexplained is on Twitter at Unexplained Pod, and you can

0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:00.439
<v Speaker 1>find out more about me and the show at explained

0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:04.880
<v Speaker 1>podcast dot com. There's no such thing as a natural myth.

0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:09.280
<v Speaker 1>I think it happens to man is ever natural, since

0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:13.760
<v Speaker 1>his presence calls a whole word in Christian all men

0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:17.040
<v Speaker 1>was die for every man is dead as any accident,

0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:21.359
<v Speaker 1>even if he knows it to consisted and adjustable violation.

0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:42.760
<v Speaker 1>Now it's time to take care of yourself, to make

0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:46.119
<v Speaker 1>time for you. Tele a doc gives you access to

0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:49.359
<v Speaker 1>a licensed therapist to help you get back to feeling

0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:53.080
<v Speaker 1>your best. Speak to a licensed therapist by phone or

0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:57.040
<v Speaker 1>video anytime between seven am to nine pm local time,

0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:01.120
<v Speaker 1>seven days a week. Tele Adoc therapy is available through

0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:05.760
<v Speaker 1>most insurance or employers. Download the app or visitteldoc dot

0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:10.520
<v Speaker 1>com Forward Slash Unexplained podcast today to get started. That's

0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:15.280
<v Speaker 1>t e ladoc dot com Slash Unexplained Podcast