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Speaker 1: Our ability to comprehend death is in many ways what

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Speaker 1: makes us the self aware human beings that we are.

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Speaker 1: For some, the realization that our life, and maybe even

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Speaker 1: all life, may one day come to an end, can

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Speaker 1: be a paralyzing fear. For all of us, it is

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Speaker 1: the greatest of mysteries. The law of conversion dictates that

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Speaker 1: energy can neither die nor be created. Instead, it merely

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Speaker 1: changes from one form to another. So although there is

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Speaker 1: little doubt what fate awaits us all in a material sense,

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Speaker 1: understanding what happens to our consciousness beyond that zero point

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Speaker 1: has proved an altogether more difficult beast to pin down.

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Speaker 1: It is an unknown that calls into question the very

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Speaker 1: nature of consciousness itself. In his studies of dream theory,

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Speaker 1: the psychiatrist Carl Jung draws the distinction between personal dreams

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Speaker 1: and larger, more universal dreams. The theory suggests the possible

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Speaker 1: existence of some kind of collective unconscious, a condition that

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Speaker 1: he believed was demonstrated by a set of archetypes that

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Speaker 1: we are all prone to recognize from our deepest unconscious states.

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Speaker 1: When put like that, it's hard not to wander just

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Speaker 1: whose dreams exactly are we dreaming. You're listening to Unexplained

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Speaker 1: and I'm Richard McClain Smith. It could be said that

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Speaker 1: all stories are ultimately about one thing, death, none more

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Speaker 1: so than the stories we tell each other concerning what

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Speaker 1: awaits us are to life. It is a theme that

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Speaker 1: can be found in stories told across every community and

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Speaker 1: culture from as far back as we can remember. For

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Speaker 1: Western and Middle Eastern cultures, these stories have tended to

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Speaker 1: promote the idea of some form of continued life that

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Speaker 1: remains true to our personal sense of ourselves. Where we

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Speaker 1: end up is dependent on our actions in life, with

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Speaker 1: the options invariably divided between either a heaven or a hell.

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Speaker 1: For the ancient Greeks, you might find yourself traveling across

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Speaker 1: the River Styx before being led to the Vale of

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Speaker 1: Mourning or the fields of Elysium. For the Egyptians, entry

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Speaker 1: to the paradisiacal Aru was granted only to those whose

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Speaker 1: heart was as light as the ostrich feather that belonged

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Speaker 1: to the goddess my Art. For followers of Far Eastern

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Speaker 1: teachings such as Hinduism, Taoism, and Buddhism, it is belief

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Speaker 1: in Samsara which holds sway the infinite cycle of birth,

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Speaker 1: life and death, or what is more commonly known as

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Speaker 1: a reincarnation. Some believe that proof of reincarnation can be

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Speaker 1: found through the practice of past life regression. Although common

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Speaker 1: in ancient India, it wasn't until the teachings of occultist

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Speaker 1: and founder of the Theosophical Society Helena Bulatsky that the

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Speaker 1: idea gained prominence in modern European society. Famous accounts such

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Speaker 1: as those of Wisconsin housewife Virginia Tie, who claim to

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Speaker 1: have lived as a nineteenth century Irish woman named Bridie Murphy,

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Speaker 1: helped to bring this controversial phenomenon into the mainstream. However,

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Speaker 1: many such accounts have been latterly dismissed as simple cases

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Speaker 1: of false memories recollections of names and places that have

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Speaker 1: been subconsciously absorbed. But there are a few cases that

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Speaker 1: have not been so easy to dismiss, cases that have

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with hypnotic regression. On the fifth of

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Speaker 1: May nineteen fifty seven, in the north of England, a

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Speaker 1: beautiful spring day is breaking over the quiet market town

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Speaker 1: of Hexham. John and Florence Pollock are busy readying their

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Speaker 1: children for church. Their two daughters Joanna seven and Jacqueline eleven,

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Speaker 1: are especially excited by the promise of an afternoon trip

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Speaker 1: to their favorite playground. On hearing the doorbell, Jacqueline answers

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Speaker 1: the door to find her young friend Anthony standing on

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Speaker 1: the doorstep. He invites Joanna and Jacqueline to walk with

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Speaker 1: him up to the church. Although they would usually travel

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Speaker 1: to Saint Mary's as a family, John and Florence saw

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Speaker 1: no reason not to let the three young children walk

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Speaker 1: on ahead. As the loving parents waved them off, they

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Speaker 1: couldn't possibly have known the tragedy that was about to

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Speaker 1: befall them. On the other side of town, a woman's

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Speaker 1: life was spiraling out of control. It's not known if

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Speaker 1: Marjorie Wynn had always suffered from severe depression, but clearly

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Speaker 1: the death of her husband five years previously had been

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Speaker 1: a crippling blow. Despite moving to Hexham for a fresh start,

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Speaker 1: things became worse after Marjorie was judged too ill to

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Speaker 1: retain custody of her two teenage daughters. It was to

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Speaker 1: prove the final straw. Considering how uncommon it was for

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Speaker 1: a mother to lose custody of her children at this time,

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Speaker 1: it's not hard to speculate on Marjorie's state of mind

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Speaker 1: as she stepped into her car that fateful Sunday morning,

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Speaker 1: a state of mind not helped by the bottle of

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Speaker 1: pain killers and barbiturates that she had just before ingested.

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Speaker 1: As the three young children walked hand in hand towards

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Speaker 1: the church, Marjorie's car turned speedily into the road. As

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Speaker 1: it neared the children, it swung into the opposite lane,

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Speaker 1: jumped the curb, and careered straight into them. There was

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Speaker 1: a moment of stunned silence before the first screams of

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Speaker 1: onlookers cut through the air. Joanna and Jacqueline were killed instantly.

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Speaker 1: Nine year old Anthony Layden, who had been due to

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Speaker 1: act as older boy that morning, died in the ambulance

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Speaker 1: on the way to the hospital. After a short police investigation,

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Speaker 1: Marjorie was committed to a psychiatric unit after it was

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Speaker 1: found that her actions had been deliberate. In the days

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Speaker 1: that followed, the small, close knit community was united in

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Speaker 1: its grief for the young victims. For John and Florence Pollock,

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Speaker 1: the parents of Joanna and Jacqueline, the sense of loss

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Speaker 1: would have been unimaginable for two devout Catholics, there was

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Speaker 1: some solace to be found in the belief that their

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Speaker 1: two girls might, at the very least now be in

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Speaker 1: a better place. It makes what happened next or the

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Speaker 1: more extraordinary, and is a mystery that remains to this

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Speaker 1: day unexplained. After an incredibly difficult eight months, the Pollock's

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Speaker 1: grief was somewhat lifted when Florence discovered that she was

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Speaker 1: pregnant again. The couple could not have been more delighted

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Speaker 1: by the news. However, not long into the pregnancy, John

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Speaker 1: developed a peculiar feeling about the impending birth. Despite being

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Speaker 1: told by the obstetrician that there was only one beating

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Speaker 1: heart inside Florence's womb, John was insistent that she would

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Speaker 1: give birth to a set of twins. Sure enough, much

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Speaker 1: to the surprise of everybody except John, on the fourth

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Speaker 1: of October nineteen fifty eight, Florence gave birth to two

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Speaker 1: baby girls, later named Gillian and Jennifer. The twins were monozygotic,

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Speaker 1: or what is more commonly known as identical, having developed

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Speaker 1: from the same egg, and yet they showed remarkable physical differences,

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Speaker 1: differences that correlated perfectly to Joanna and Jacqueline. One morning,

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Speaker 1: While looking after young Jennifer, John noticed a peculiar mark

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Speaker 1: on her forehead, just above the nose. The mark was

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Speaker 1: identical to a scar that Jacqueline had received after falling

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Speaker 1: from her tricycle when she was two years old. The

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Speaker 1: mark may well have gone unnoticed if it wasn't for

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Speaker 1: the fact that Jennifer had also recently developed a very

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Speaker 1: distinct birthmark on her left hip. The brown coloring of

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Speaker 1: the skin, shaped like a thumb print, was indistinguishable from

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Speaker 1: a birthmark that Jacqueline once had in the exact same spot,

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Speaker 1: and the similarities did not end there. Despite being identical.

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Speaker 1: Gillian's body was slender like Joanna, whereas Jennifer was stocky

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Speaker 1: like Jacqueline. Where Gillian's gait was supply footed, again like Joanna,

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Speaker 1: Jennifer's was ordinary, just like Jacqueline. And it wasn't only

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Speaker 1: their physical attributes. Their personalities, too, seemed to precisely mirror

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Speaker 1: those of their two deceased sisters. Joanna, who had been

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Speaker 1: older by four years, was naturally more mature and protective

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Speaker 1: over Jacqueline, although Gillian was only ten minutes older than Jennifer.

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Speaker 1: Their relationship exhibited the very same dynamic but it wasn't

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Speaker 1: until the girls were able to speak that things would

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Speaker 1: turn very strange. Indeed, are you always taking care of

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Speaker 1: your family? Do you often take care of others and

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Speaker 1: not yourself? Now it's time to take care of yourself.

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Speaker 1: To make time for you. You deserve it. Teledoc gives

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Speaker 1: you access to a licensed therapist to help you get

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Speaker 1: back to feeling your best, to feeling like yourself again.

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Speaker 1: With teledoc, you can speak to a licensed therapist by

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Speaker 1: phone or video. Therapy appointments are available seven days a

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Speaker 1: week from seven am to nine pm local time. If

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Speaker 1: you feel overwhelmed sometimes, maybe you feel stressed or anxious,

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Speaker 1: depressed or lonely, or you might be struggling with a

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Speaker 1: personal or family issue, teledoc can help. Teledoc is committed

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Speaker 1: to facilitating great therapeutic matches, so they make it easy

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00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,880
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Speaker 1: available through most insurance or employers. Download the app or

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Speaker 1: visit teledoc dot com forward slash Unexplained podcast today to

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Speaker 1: get started. That's t e ladoc dot com slash Unexplained podcast.

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Speaker 1: Three months after the twins were born, John and Florence

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Speaker 1: moved the family to the nearby town of Whitley Bay.

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Speaker 1: When they took the girls to visit Hexham a few

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Speaker 1: years later, something extraordinary occurred. As John accounts, as he

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Speaker 1: was walking with the twins up the hill towards Saint

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Speaker 1: Mary's Church, one turned to the other and said, the

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Speaker 1: school is up here where we used to go to

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Speaker 1: and just around the back is the playground. At the time,

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Speaker 1: not only would they have been too small to see

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Speaker 1: the school from where they were standing, but there was

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Speaker 1: also a large wall obscuring their view. Then, as they

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Speaker 1: passed the church, the children continued to point out landmarks

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Speaker 1: that they would never have seen before. They pointed out

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Speaker 1: the grounds of Hexham Abbey and demanded to visit their

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Speaker 1: favorite playground that was located on the far side of

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Speaker 1: the hill. For John, the evidence was undeniable. Joanna and

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Speaker 1: Jacqueline had been returned to them in the form of

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Speaker 1: Gillian and Jennifer. Florence, on the other hand, refused to

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Speaker 1: believe to accept the bizarre events and startling coincidences as

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Speaker 1: evidence of reincarnation was in short heresy. The more committed

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Speaker 1: Catholic of the pair, She was determined that nothing would

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Speaker 1: break her core belief, but all that was about to

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Speaker 1: change when Joanna and Jacqueline died. Florence found it too

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Speaker 1: unbearable to be surrounded by their things, in particular their

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Speaker 1: toys that had once been such a symbol of joy

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Speaker 1: and life that were now just reminders of the horrific tragedy,

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Speaker 1: so she packed them into a box and stored them

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Speaker 1: away in the attic. By the time the twins were four,

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Speaker 1: Florence felt able again to live with the toys and

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Speaker 1: retrieve them from their storage. With the twins beside her,

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Speaker 1: she opened the box and was astonished that the two

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Speaker 1: girls were able to name every one of the toys

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Speaker 1: that used to belong to their sisters. But it wasn't

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Speaker 1: until Florence came across a far more disturbing scene that

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Speaker 1: her mind was finally made up. Approaching the children's playroom

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Speaker 1: one morning, Florence heard the twins in quiet conversation amongst themselves.

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Speaker 1: What she saw when she looked into the room has

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Speaker 1: haunted her to this day. There on the floor lay Jennifer,

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Speaker 1: with her arms and legs sprawled out, as Gillian crouched

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Speaker 1: down beside her and cradled her head in her hands.

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Speaker 1: The blood is coming out of your eyes, she said,

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Speaker 1: that's where the car hits you. In nineteen sixty two,

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Speaker 1: the story of the Pollock Twins was brought to the

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Speaker 1: attention of US Canadian professor of psychiatry Ian Stephenson. Stephenson,

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Speaker 1: from the University of Virginia's School of Medicine, had developed

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Speaker 1: an international reputation for his investigations into alleged cases of reincarnation.

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Speaker 1: He had even created a specialized department known as the

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Speaker 1: Division of Perceptual Studies to better conduct his research. Despite

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Speaker 1: the oddity of his work, Professor Stephenson was well respected

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Speaker 1: in the psychiatric community at one time, being described in

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Speaker 1: the Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent

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Speaker 1: Psychiatry as a distinguished psychiatrist and scholar. For Stephenson, what

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Speaker 1: stood out most about the Pollock's story was its provenance.

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Speaker 1: In post war Britain, the notion of reincarn nation was

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Speaker 1: still a fairly alien concept, more commonly reserved for followers

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Speaker 1: of the exotic Eastern philosophies of Hinduism and Buddhism. For

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Speaker 1: a devout Catholic couple to announce in nineteen sixty two

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Speaker 1: that their daughters were living proof of reincarnation was truly remarkable. Stephenson,

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Speaker 1: who studied the family from nineteen sixty four to nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty five, was also particularly interested in the scar and

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Speaker 1: birthmark found on Jennifer's body. The transference of such marks

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Speaker 1: had become a recurring feature in many of his case studies.

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Speaker 1: The fact that Jennifer and Jillian were supposedly monosigotic made

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Speaker 1: the existence of Jennifer's marks all the more compelling. In

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Speaker 1: spite of all this evidence, it would be far too

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Speaker 1: simple to declare the story of the polit twins as

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Speaker 1: an open and shut case for the existence of reincarnation.

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Speaker 1: It would, of course not be beyond the realms of

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Speaker 1: possibility that the magnitude of John and Florence's grief may

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Speaker 1: have played a large part. Wanting to believe that their

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Speaker 1: daughters had in some way been returned to them would have,

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Speaker 1: no doubt brought a great comfort as well. A point

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Speaker 1: frequently left out of the story as that John and

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Speaker 1: Florence were not only the parents of two girls, but

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Speaker 1: in fact had six children, with the twins sharing their

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Speaker 1: home with four brothers. Although the parents maintain that they

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Speaker 1: never openly discussed their recently deceased daughters. It is hard

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Speaker 1: to believe that the four boys kept an equally quiet counsel.

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Speaker 1: It would be impossible to tell just what may or

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Speaker 1: may not have been projected onto the conscious or even

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Speaker 1: subconscious minds of the young twins growing up under the

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Speaker 1: shadow of such a harrowing family tragedy. It is also

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Speaker 1: known that John became interested in the idea of reincarnation

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Speaker 1: sometime before the death of his daughters, so much so,

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Speaker 1: in fact, that he had begun to question his commitment

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Speaker 1: to his Catholic faith. And yet it seems extraordinary that

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Speaker 1: a set of genetically identical twins drawn from the same

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Speaker 1: egg would exhibit such fundamental differences at such an early stage,

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Speaker 1: both physically and in terms of personality. Doctor Jim Tucker,

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Speaker 1: a research partner of Professor Stephenson, has also pointed out

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Speaker 1: that for Florence, it was a constant struggle to reconcile

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Speaker 1: the evidence of her own eyes with the church's edict

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Speaker 1: that belief in reincarnation was a mortal sin. The possibility

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Speaker 1: that the girls had been reincarnated brought no comfort to

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Speaker 1: her whatsoever, and as such she should be regarded as

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Speaker 1: an excellent impartial witness. By nineteen eighty five, the polit

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Speaker 1: twins had ceased to feel a connection to any sense

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Speaker 1: of a former life, and Professor Stephenson's studies came to

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Speaker 1: an inconclusive end. In ancient Aboriginal culture, people speak of

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Speaker 1: something known as eternal dreaming. For them, a person's actions

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Speaker 1: during their lifetime have no bearing on the destination of

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Speaker 1: their spirit in the afterlife. There is no heaven nor hell. Rather,

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Speaker 1: they believe in the indestructible nature of the human spirit.

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Speaker 1: Although the spirits of the recently deceased may retain their

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Speaker 1: individual identities immediately after death, it is regarded as only

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Speaker 1: a temporary state. Perhaps in life, as far as we

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Speaker 1: know it, we might imagine ourselves a version of Kurt

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Speaker 1: Ernegut's hero major Alan Rice from the story Thanersphere, our

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Speaker 1: bodies nothing but soft machine receptors, tuning into the lives

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Speaker 1: of the dead as they wait to be absorbed into

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Speaker 1: the one universal consciousness. Or perhaps the explanation is something

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Speaker 1: else entirely, something that might allow for Young's archetypes and

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Speaker 1: the collective unconscious, but from a far more material point

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Speaker 1: of view. Prior to Charles Darwin's Origins of the Species.

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Speaker 1: Another naturalist by the name of John Baptiste Lamark had

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Speaker 1: been causing a stir with an evolutionary theory of his own.

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Speaker 1: He suggested that an organism might pass characteristics to his

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Speaker 1: offspring not only through internal genetic mechanisms, but also through

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Speaker 1: external influences that it would have been effected by during

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Speaker 1: its lifetime. Although the theory known as Lamarchism gained some traction,

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Speaker 1: it was widely discredited after the inception of Darwinism, and

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Speaker 1: so it was destined to remain. However, a number of

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Speaker 1: recent discoveries in the newly fashionable study of epigenetics has

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Speaker 1: led to somewhat of a Lamarchist come back. Similar to

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Speaker 1: what Lamarque proposed. Epigenetics is the study of external and

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Speaker 1: environmental factors on the behavior of genes and their relationship

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Speaker 1: to our selves. In twenty and thirteen, a paper titled

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Speaker 1: Parental olfactory experience Influenced Behavior and Neural structure in Subsequent

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Speaker 1: Generations appeared in the leading medical journal Nature. The paper

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Speaker 1: was written by neurobiologist Kerry Wrestler and his research partner

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Speaker 1: Brian Das. What Wrestler and Dias had discovered was that

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Speaker 1: by conditioning a set of mice to associate ascent with

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Speaker 1: the specific trauma, in this case, a small electrical shock,

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Speaker 1: the fear they would then associate with this scent would

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Speaker 1: incredibly be passed down to at least two subsequent generations

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Speaker 1: of pups. Taking this extraordinary discovery into account, might it

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Speaker 1: be possible that not only do we inherit our grandparents

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Speaker 1: noses and eyebrows, but in some way their thoughts as well.

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Speaker 1: For Jillian and Jennifer Pollock, is it beyond the realms

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Speaker 1: of possibility that rather than being the reincarnated souls of

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Speaker 1: their recently deceased sisters, they had instead merely inherited their parents'

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Speaker 1: own memories of their young daughters. There is little doubt

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Speaker 1: that in a physiological sense, we are all in some

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Speaker 1: way the reincarnation of those that have come before us,

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Speaker 1: But perhaps might we also be carrying their dreams as well.

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Speaker 1: This episode of Unexplained was produced by me Richard McLane smith.

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Speaker 1: Unexplained is on Twitter at Unexplained Pod, and you can

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Speaker 1: find out more about me and the show at explained

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Speaker 1: podcast dot com. There's no such thing as a natural myth.

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Speaker 1: I think it happens to man is ever natural, since

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Speaker 1: his presence calls a whole word in Christian all men

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Speaker 1: was die for every man is dead as any accident,

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Speaker 1: even if he knows it to consisted and adjustable violation.

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Speaker 1: Now it's time to take care of yourself, to make

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Speaker 1: time for you. Tele a doc gives you access to

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Speaker 1: a licensed therapist to help you get back to feeling

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Speaker 1: your best. Speak to a licensed therapist by phone or

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Speaker 1: video anytime between seven am to nine pm local time,

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00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,120
Speaker 1: seven days a week. Tele Adoc therapy is available through

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Speaker 1: most insurance or employers. Download the app or visitteldoc dot

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Speaker 1: com Forward Slash Unexplained podcast today to get started. That's

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Speaker 1: t e ladoc dot com Slash Unexplained Podcast