1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 2: The federal minimum wage has been around in the US 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 2: for nearly ninety years. Today, it's set at seven twenty 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 2: five an hour. By law, employers in the country can't 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 2: pay workers less than that amount, but it doesn't apply 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 2: to everyone. 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: From the time that Congress created a wage floor for 8 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: the country, legislators also created an exception. 9 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 2: Josh Eidelson is a senior reporter for Bloomberg covering the workplace, 10 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 2: and he spent the past year looking into a program 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 2: that for decades has allowed employers to pay a certain 12 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 2: group of workers below that federal floor, workers with disabilities. 13 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 2: The program is called fourteen C. 14 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: The fourteen C program was created by Congress to ensure 15 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: that the labor of people with disabilities would not be 16 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: too expensive for companies to want to purchase it. 17 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 2: Fourteen C is a section of labor law in the 18 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 2: US that lets employers pay sub minimum wage rates to 19 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 2: people with a range of disabilities based on their productivity, 20 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 2: and in some extreme cases. Josh says, the rate employers 21 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 2: come up with is close to zero. 22 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: Records I reviewed show employers have reported paying, in one 23 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: case as little as five cents an hour to an employee. 24 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 2: Fourteen C workers have packaged medical supplies in Missouri and 25 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,960 Speaker 2: lipstick for Grammy Award gift bags. They've worked as janitors, 26 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,639 Speaker 2: assembled car owners' manuals and clean parts used to build 27 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 2: F thirty five fighter jets, and people's views on the 28 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 2: program can be divided. There are people like Brady Bartley, 29 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 2: a twenty nine year old with autism who worked in Ohio. 30 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 3: You just sit there and you're like, Wow, these people 31 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 3: are really taking advantage of me here. 32 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: And people like Michelle Jardine, a sixty year old with 33 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 2: an intellectual disability and borderline personality disorder who works at 34 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: a nonprofit in Texas. 35 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 4: I just love it here. It's not perfect, but it's 36 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 4: close to it. It's the only place I have been 37 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 4: in and I'd met so many friends. 38 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 2: Now, fourteen C workers are at the center of a 39 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 2: debate over whether a program that was designed to create 40 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 2: more opportunities for people with disabilities is actually living up 41 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 2: to that promise, and whether it should exist at all. Today, 42 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 2: on the show, the Battle over the future of sub 43 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 2: minimum wage jobs in the United States. This is the 44 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 2: big take from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder, Bloomberg Senior 45 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 2: reporter Josh Idelson says that when Congress created the program 46 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: that would become fourteen C in nineteen thirty eight, it 47 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 2: was framed as a necessary exemption to the federal minimum wage, 48 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 2: meant to help both employers and people with disabilities. 49 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: There was concern that with a federal minimum wage that 50 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: said you have to pay any employee this much per hour, 51 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: there would be people whose disabilities made them work less productively, 52 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: who would therefore not be hired or not stay hired 53 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: by employers. 54 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 2: And when we're talking about workers with disabilities who are 55 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 2: eligible for this program, what range of disability does it encompass? 56 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: Disabilities such as cerebral palsy autism. In recent years, most 57 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: workers paid a fourteen C subminimum wage have had some 58 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: sort of intellectual or developmental disability. 59 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 2: And how do these companies determine the pay rate for 60 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 2: employees with disabilities. 61 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: It's complicated by law. The pay under the fourteen C 62 00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: program is supposed to be commensurate, meaning that workers are 63 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: being paid in proportion to their productivity. The amount less 64 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: than the federal minimum wage that a fourteen SEED worker 65 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: can be paid is supposed to be in proportion to 66 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: the amount less that they are producing at a task 67 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: as compared to a non disabled worker, and there is 68 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: a lot of responsibility on the employer. They're supposed to 69 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: figure out what non disabled workers in the area doing 70 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: that job generally make. They're supposed to figure out what 71 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: amount of work a non disabled worker would get done 72 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: in an amount of time. So that's generally done with 73 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: a stopwatch, timing how fast somebody else does the job. 74 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 2: And how do all these metrics come together to calculate 75 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 2: the wage that these workers are paid. What's the range there? 76 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: Some workers under the fourteen Seed program end up making 77 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: close to to the federal minimum wage or over it 78 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: if they have a particularly productive hour. Other workers are 79 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: making much less. Federal law does not set any specific 80 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: floor that a worker has to be paid per hour 81 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: under the fourteen SEA program. 82 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 2: Many fourteen SEA employers are what's known as sheltered workshops. 83 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 2: Those are often nonprofits that employ Americans with disabilities in 84 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 2: a separate setting from other workers. These employers apply for 85 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 2: fourteen SEA certificates exempting them from the normal minimum wage, 86 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: and then they set piece rates or hourly rates for 87 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 2: the workers they hire. Almost half of workers in the 88 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,679 Speaker 2: program make below three point fifty an hour. The Department 89 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 2: of Labor said last year, nearly two percent make twenty 90 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 2: five cents or less. Some of these employers have paid 91 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 2: workers even less than what the program promises, according to 92 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 2: investigations by labor departments under both Biden and Trump. In 93 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 2: fiscal year twenty two twenty three, the Department concluded that 94 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 2: more than eighty percent of the fourteen SEA employers it 95 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: investigated weren't compliant and together owe their workers' millions in 96 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 2: back pay. 97 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: Critics of the fourteen C program say that this reinforces 98 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: stigma and discrimination against people with disabilities, that it sends 99 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: a signal to the public and to employers that people 100 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: with disabilities are not equal and are not as capable 101 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: as other workers. They argue, there's a whole lot that 102 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: the government does, and even more the government could be 103 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: doing to support integrated, dignified, well paying jobs for people 104 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: with disabilities. 105 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 2: But its supporters say the program provides an important employment 106 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 2: option for people who might not otherwise have one. Tens 107 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 2: of millions of American adults have some sort of disability, 108 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 2: a broad category of conditions that can make it tougher 109 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 2: to move perceive, communicate, or learn, and while about three 110 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 2: quarters of non disabled working age Americans are employed, only 111 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 2: about two and five of those with disabilities are. 112 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: One of the arguments I heard over and over was 113 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: that work in America can be hostile and unfair to 114 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: people with disabilities, and that the outside world beyond these 115 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: workshops has not met its responsibility to support people with 116 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: disabilities and treat them fairly. 117 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 2: In the course of his reporting, Josh reviewed federal and 118 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: state records, visited fourteen C workplaces, and spoke with over 119 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 2: one hundred people, including regulators, disability advocates, employers, and workers. 120 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 2: One of the fourteen C employers Josh visited is called 121 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 2: the Brookwood Community. It's a nonprofit where he met a 122 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 2: woman named Michelle Jardine. 123 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: Michelle has an intellectual disability which can make it harder 124 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: to learn and understand instructions, and borderline personality disorder, which 125 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: can lead to outbursts. She had a series of bad 126 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: experiences in other workplaces. 127 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 4: I was basically bullied in front of the coworkers, call 128 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 4: me stupid, dumb, I'll never mount to anything, stuff like that. 129 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 4: So it wasn't a healthy situation for. 130 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: Me, and because of the bullying she says she experienced 131 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: at other integrated workplaces, she switched and started working at Brookwood. 132 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 4: Here I've learned that hey, I'm okay, I am kind, 133 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 4: really kind and consider it, and I've met lots of 134 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 4: friends here. 135 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: She has a job there glazing in the ceramics shop. 136 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,559 Speaker 1: She makes a piece rate that on average amounts to 137 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: around one to three dollars an hour. 138 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 2: Mischelle receives financial support from her family and lives at Brookwood, 139 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 2: and although she says she's found fulfillment and friendship there, 140 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: her workplace is among those that have been found violating 141 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 2: the terms of fourteen C. Brookwood has been cited twice 142 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 2: by the Labor Department for violations like not conducting adequate 143 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 2: time studies for employees and not providing required information on 144 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 2: self advocacy and mentorship opportunities. After the latest case, Brookwood 145 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 2: agreed to pay one hundred and fifty thousand dollars in 146 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 2: back wages. The nonprofit says it's made changes to ensure 147 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 2: its following the rules. Other workers who participated in the 148 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 2: fourteen C program shared a different perspective, like Brady Bartley. 149 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: Brady Bartley is a man with autism in Ohio who 150 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: went to a fourteen C employer where he worked disassembling speedometers. 151 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: You were getting paid how much at the beginning three dollars. 152 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 3: There was not a lot a life livable amount to 153 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 3: live off of. I've never been happier than when I 154 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 3: worked at that place, but you can't survive off of it. 155 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: Management there was very nice and was very smiley, but 156 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 1: over time he concluded that they were ripping him off. 157 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 3: At the time, I was kind of homeless, so it 158 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 3: was really the only option I had at the moment. 159 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 3: I literally lived off of nick Chickens for a dollar. 160 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: And importantly, Brady, like many other people I talked to 161 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: who worked in the fourteen C program and became critics 162 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: of it, Brady says his employer was not at all 163 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 1: trying to prepare him to find a better job somewhere else. 164 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: He says his employer presented the outside world as a 165 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: place that was hostile and scary. 166 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 2: But eventually Brady found a new manufacturing job, one that 167 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 2: pays above minimum wage in an integrated environment. 168 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: He said he does get frequent breaks that are a 169 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 1: helpful accommodation for him with his disability, and rather than 170 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: three dollars an hour. He makes over twenty dollars an hour, 171 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 1: and he didn't portray this job as some nirvana. He said, 172 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: sometimes he gets made fun of for the way he talks. 173 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 3: I have a lot of trouble with my words and stuff, 174 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 3: so that people are very mean sometimes and you're going 175 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 3: to have to work past that. But it's worth it. 176 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 3: It's way better than no money. Tell you that. 177 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 2: For people who oppose the sub minimum wage, stories like 178 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 2: Brady's prove that fourteen C is far from the only 179 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 2: option people with certain disabilities have to find meaningful employment 180 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,359 Speaker 2: that pays at least the federal standard. But for its defenders, 181 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 2: stories like Michelle's highlight the ways fourteen seed jobs are 182 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 2: deeply meaningful. These tensions have shaped the debate over the 183 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 2: fourteen C program for decades, and they've recently been coming 184 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 2: to a head. So what could the future of the 185 00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 2: program look like under President Trump? That's after the break. 186 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 2: I've been speaking with Bloomberg reporter Josh Eidelson about a 187 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 2: federal program that allows employers to pay people with disabilities 188 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 2: subminimum wages and the questions about its fate in the US. 189 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 2: Have there been any efforts to reform the program or 190 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 2: change the program. 191 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: Since the Americans with Disabilities Act was signed in nineteen ninety, 192 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: there have been a series of state and federal developments 193 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: that have put pressure on the program and created a 194 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: reckoning that is not over yet. More than a dozen 195 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: states have passed laws to phase out subminimum wage within 196 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 1: their borders. Under the Obama administration, the President signed in 197 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: executive order requiring that people working on federal contracts make 198 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: at least ten dollars and ten cents an hour. Congress 199 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: under Obama passed a law that creates additional requirements that 200 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: are meant to be additional guardrails for the fourteen see program, 201 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: And in the last weeks of the Biden administration, the 202 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: Department of Labor issued a proposed regulation that would eventually 203 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: abolish the sub minimum wage program. 204 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 2: So what will you be watching for next to get 205 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 2: a sense of what the future of this program looks like? 206 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: One question is what will the Trump administration do specifically 207 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: with this proposed regulation that they inherited from the Biden administration? 208 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: Another is what will happen to the broader set of 209 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: supports that the government provides to help people succeed in 210 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: competitive integrated employment. Another question is what will enforcement look 211 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: like under President Trump. If the federal government is taking 212 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: a more laissez faire, more business friendly approach, to what 213 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: extent will we see states go in the other direction 214 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: on their own? 215 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 2: Would the future of government reform and open question. Josh 216 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 2: found that some former fourteen C employers are pushing for 217 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 2: change on their own. 218 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: Some of the vocal critics now of the fourteen C 219 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: program are employers that used to pay a subminimum wage themselves. 220 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: The experience of some of the employers that have ended 221 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: their sub minimum wage is that it changed their thinking 222 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: and made them come up with more efficient or more 223 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: profitable lines of business, and that it changed the calculation 224 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: for people with disabilities and their parents. In some cases, 225 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: managers concluded that having sub minimum wage programs was creating 226 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: an easy answer for families that were worried about finding 227 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: some safe place for their child to go, and that 228 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: people were being sent there who really could have been 229 00:14:53,640 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: succeeding in another environment. In this debate over for enc 230 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: there are debates about science, about economics, about law. There's 231 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: also a philosophical tension here. Some of the defenders of 232 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: the fourteen C program see employment as essential to meaning 233 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: and dignity and purpose, regardless of how much someone is 234 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: getting paid. On the other side, some of the critics 235 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: say that there is no justice, there is no dignity 236 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: in saying people can be employees but without the minimum 237 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: amount of pay that for pretty much everyone else an 238 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: employer is required to provide. 239 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 2: This is the Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder. 240 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Julia Press. It was edited 241 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 2: by Aaron Edwards and Jeff Muscus. It was fact checked 242 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 2: by audrean Atapia and mixed and sound designed by Alex Supia. 243 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 2: Our senior producer is Naomi Shaven. Our senior editor is 244 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Tonso. Our deputy executive producer is Julia Weaver. Our 245 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 2: executive producer is Nicole beamsterborg Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head 246 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 2: of podcasts. If you liked this episode, make sure to 247 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: subscribe and review The Big Take wherever you listen to podcasts. 248 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 2: It helps people find the show. Thanks for listening. We'll 249 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 2: be back tomorrow.