WEBVTT - US Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas Talks Border 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:06.760 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:11.160 Our colleague David Rubinstein, Carlisle, co founder, host of Peer 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:14.680 to Peer on Bloomberg Television, sitting down with Alejandro my orcis. 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:16.920 As you can see right now on Bloomberg Television, let's 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:18.319 watch and listen together of our. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.840 Homeland Security Advisory Council in the Department of Homeland Security 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:22.439 and the. 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:23.560 Jewel thief that I am. 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:27.120 I just stole Matthew Ferraro from the law from to 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:30.840 join us and be a senior counselor on matters of technology. 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:35.879 Okay, well, let me talk about the elephant in the room, 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:40.360 because you were the second secretary in the history of 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:44.960 our country to be impeached. What was it like living 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:48.040 through that impeachment process and is it finally over now? 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:54.040 To the best of my knowledge, it's over, so you know, 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.280 quite frankly, I have said publicly a number of times 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:01.920 that I did not allow it to distract me. That 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:08.360 was actually sincere I focused intensely on my work throughout. 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:15.560 In a week where it was an issue of greater 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:18.400 prominence in the life of the department, I might have 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:21.240 spent twenty minutes on it. I really just focused on 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:24.680 my work. It had its impact on loved ones. 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:27.840 So it's behind us now. Though, as Will Rogers once said, 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:30.679 and paraphrasing him, the country is never safe as long 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:33.319 as the house is in session, right, So you never know, 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:36.959 but may never come back, right. 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:36.800 One would hope not. 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:41.880 Okay, So let's talk about the border. It appears that 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:44.119 there are a lot of people coming in over the border. 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:46.360 This is obviously one of the subjects of that people 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:48.680 wanted to impeach you. Some people wanted to them peach 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:52.040 you over. Is it really that we're getting more people 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:54.040 coming in over the border illegally or is it just 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:55.000 the appearance of that? 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:59.480 Oh no, No, The number of encounters at the southern 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:07.000 border is very high, but it's very very important number 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:10.040 one to contextualize it and number two to explain it 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:14.120 from a context perspective. The world is seeing the greatest 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:17.799 level of displacement since at least World War Two. I 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:20.840 think the recent report was that there are seventy three 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:25.240 million displaced people in the United States. And so the 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:28.960 challenge of migration is not exclusive to the southern border, 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:30.760 nor to the western hemisphere. 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:31.720 It is global. 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:35.079 And when I speak to partners across the Atlantic. It's 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:37.800 the first issue that they raise, The first challenge that 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:41.280 what is the reason for that? So well? One has 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:54.600 the customary reasons of displacement, violence insecurity, poverty, corruption, authoritarian regimes, 0:02:55.160 --> 0:03:00.520 now increasingly extreme weather events that propel people to leave. 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:04.200 Why are we experiencing what we are? 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:07.680 It is for those very reasons why people leave their 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:13.280 countries of origin. We also remember, in our hemisphere we 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:17.359 overcame COVID more rapidly than any other country. We had, 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:22.400 in a post COVID world, eleven million jobs to fill. 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:29.200 We are a country of choice as a destination. And 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:34.160 one takes those two forces, and then one considers the 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:38.520 fact that we have an immigration system that is broken 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:44.040 fundamentally and we have a level of encounter that we do. 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.080 And when we speak of a broken system, let me 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:53.000 just capture that as succinctly as I can. The average 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:58.840 time between encounter and the point of final adjudication of 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:04.960 an asylum claim is seven plus years. Approximately seventy percent 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:09.280 of the people who meet an initial threshold for asylum 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:14.440 the credible fear standard about seventy qualify and so they 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:18.920 stay for seven plus years and the ultimate adjudication about 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:23.039 twenty percent qualify. That's quite a disparity. But people in 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:28.239 the meantime leave that are able to stay sometimes have children. 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:33.240 US citizen children attend our schools, attend our places of worship, 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:34.799 but integrate in the community. 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:37.839 I understand, But why wouldn't somebody who coming in illegally 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:40.839 always say they're seeking political asylum because based on what 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:43.480 you just said, they're likely to be here for seven years. 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:45.880 Why not just say I'm not smuggling drugs, I'm just 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:48.280 a political asylum seeker. Why doesn't anybody do that. 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:54.960 The drug Let's separate drug smuggling from migration, David, The 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:58.880 fact of the matter is that we have an extraordinary 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:04.640 number of people aiming asylum and a greatly reduced number 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:09.280 of people qualifying for it. The reality is that people 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:14.680 do claim asylum when in fact they are fleeing poverty, 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:19.320 generalize violence, and that does not an asylum case make. 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:24.440 But the initial threshold for an asylum case is low, 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:28.680 and purposely low. And one of the things that the 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:33.280 bipartisan legislation would have done is would have raised the 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:33.800 all right. 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:36.880 So in our country, if somebody seeks political asylum and 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:40.800 they legitimately need political asylum, is it our law that 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.440 they automatically get it if they have legitimate means. There's 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.240 no quotas or anything on how many people we can 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:47.279 accept for a political asylum. 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:52.120 There is no quota on the asylum population, and one 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:55.200 just has to persuade a judge. 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:59.479 So you've been Homeland Security secretary under President Biden from 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:02.800 the beginning administration. So how many people would you say 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:06.880 since that time have come over the border, the southern border, 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:10.919 let's say, illegally seeking asylum. They're bringing drugs or whatever 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:11.400 they're doing. 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:16.360 I do want to differentiate because we're in a political 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:25.159 environment that demonizes individuals encountered at the border, and there's 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:30.360 a vulnerability to painting with a broad brush people who 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:34.080 are fleeing in coming to the United States. And so 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:36.960 I want to separate and I will be incessant in 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:43.279 this separate rug smugglers from individuals seeking asylum or even 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.000 if they don't have a basis to remain in the 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:49.640 United States. 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:49.800 Seeking a better life. 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.880 And so the number of encounters have been very well 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:56.680 published this past year. This past month, we had about 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:58.839 one hundred and thirty four thousand encounters in. 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:01.480 This past month, say, since the beginning of the administration. 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:05.520 Is it millions of people? It's several million people. The 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.440 perception is by I guess some Republicans in the House 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:11.440 side perhaps maybe others, that more people have been coming 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.320 in under President Biden than under President Trump. Is that 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:14.840 true or not? 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:18.480 That is that is true? Now? 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:23.200 Twenty nineteen, there was almost a one hundred percent increase 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:26.400 in the number of encounters of the Southern border over 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:31.960 twenty eighteen. The situation in the Hemisphere was propelling people 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:36.280 to leave their country. Twenty twenty was a period of 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:41.559 tremendously suppressed migration throughout the Hemisphere and around the world 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:43.320 because of the COVID nineteen. 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:45.920 People coming over the border illegally in the Southern Border, 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.080 what percentage of them are really drug smugglers? 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:57.880 The majority of fentyl over ninety percent of the fentinyls 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:03.720 smuggled into this entry is smuggled in passenger vehicles and 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:07.480 commercial trucks traveling through are ports of entry. 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:10.480 So it's not people carrying it on their body. 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:13.440 It is not people carrying it on their body. 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.880 What about people who are hired who want to get 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:20.120 a better life. They hire people for money to get 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:22.760 them across the border. Is that a big problem as well? 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:25.200 So let me let me go back and make one 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:27.640 other point about the ports of entry. The majority of 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:31.800 people arrested seeking to smuggle fentanyl into the country through 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:35.559 commercial trucks and passenger vehicles are United States citizens? 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:39.280 What do with them? 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:43.000 So they're arrested for drug smuggling and under Title twenty 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:47.240 one of the United States Code, they're prosecuted. So with 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:55.319 respect to your question about, you know, people coming across 0:08:55.640 --> 0:09:00.440 the border, what we need, What we need fundamental mentally 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:06.920 is a reformed system, a legislatively reformed system. 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:11.360 We are in twenty twenty four. The world has changed. 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:17.600 Our immigration system was last changed in nineteen ninety six. 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:19.800 We're in a different world now. 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.800 Well, there was legislation that was developed, i think in 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:27.080 the Senate, bipartisan legislation, and it got stalled. Let's say, 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.320 in the House. Would that have solved our problem? 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.760 Had it passed, it would have been a transformative change 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:35.960 in managing the number of people we encounter. 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:38.240 What was the main thing that would have been in 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:40.920 that law that we don't have now that you would 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:41.480 have liked to have. 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:45.880 So we would have taken a seven plus year time 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:49.640 period between the time of encounter and final adjudication and 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:53.760 reduced it to as little as ninety days. And that 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:58.920 changes an intending migrants risk calculus, because if they know 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:03.480 that they can stay from multiple years and work and 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:06.719 make more money than they can and safely so than 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:09.440 in their country of origin, they will decide to make 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:13.760 that journey. If they understand that they have to pay 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:18.520 their life savings to a smuggling organization only to stay 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:21.280 for a matter of weeks, that is a very different 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:25.000 risk calculus. And one of your prior questions was do 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:28.120 they pay people to assist them? The world of migration 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:32.600 has changed dramatically over the last even fifteen years. We're 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:36.079 not dealing with the coyotes that I dealt with as 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:39.880 a federal prosecutor, that where they smuggle two three people 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:45.680 at a time. We're dealing with extraordinarily sophisticated smuggling organizations 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:50.000 in a multi billion dollar industry that is also international. 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:53.240 But that industry is it one design to bring drugs 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:55.600 into the United States or designed to get people to 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:57.320 come United States for which they get a fee. 0:10:58.080 --> 0:10:59.000 It is the latter. 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:02.240 But what we are seeing, and it should be unsurprising 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:04.440 to everyone that we're seeing a. 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:08.400 Not quite a merger, I would say. 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:13.959 A synthesis of transnational criminal organizations and the smuggling organizations. 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:16.000 There's so much money to be made. 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:19.199 And fentanel is coming from China. Is that true? 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:26.880 Well, China is a primary source of precursor chemicals and 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:29.079 the equipment used to manufacture fednyls. 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:31.679 How does it get over from China to let's say Mexico. 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:39.000 It is shipped to Mexico, and it also comes domestically 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.439 to the United States and follows various transit routes. And 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:46.480 which is why I engaged with my counterpart from the 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:50.880 People's Republic of China to address this fact. 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:56.400 The people who are now coming over? Are we separating families? 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:58.679 Other words, under the Trump administration, there was a lot 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:01.760 of controversy children being separated from parents. Is that happening 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:02.720 now or not happening? 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:08.040 No, that was a deliberate practice to deter families from 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.480 reaching the southern border. Was the separation of them That 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:19.640 was condemned across the board. Cruelty is not something that 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:23.960 is an instrument of a value based country, and we 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:29.200 eliminated that practice. I actually was eliminated in all fairness. 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.520 Towards the end of the Trump administration, we issued a 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:37.880 policy preventing it, and we actually the president created a 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:41.240 Family Reunification Task Force that I chair that is actually 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:42.880 reuniting separated families. 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:47.280 Okay, so President Trump a campaign when he first campaigned 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:50.200 for president on creating a wall, and I guess some 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:52.320 part of the wall was built. But would not a 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:55.280 wall have helped somewhat if we had a big wall? 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:57.880 Would that not block people from coming even though people 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:00.160 like to make fun of the wall and expensive, would 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:03.600 not have had some impact and reducing illegal immigration. 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:08.040 So look, in the twenty first century, I wouldn't necessarily 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:15.840 propose cementing ballards on the ground and constructing an immovable 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:24.360 wall given the dynamism and the rapid change in migratory patterns. 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:29.600 But I just have to quote Secretary of Politano. You 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.920 build a twenty foot wall, they'll build a twenty one 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:36.880 foot ladder. And we see breaches of the wall all 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:39.840 the time. We're seeing the corrosion and collapse of the 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:45.040 wall in other places. But people breach physical barriers. It 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.760 requires a much more comprehensive approach. 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:51.800 So why wouldn't people come over the northern border where 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:55.640 somehow come out. Nobody seems to be monitoring the Canadian 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:58.280 border that much, I guess, So isn't easier to come 0:13:58.280 --> 0:13:59.880 into the country illegally through Canada? 0:13:59.880 --> 0:14:05.000 And we monitor the northern border of the United States 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:10.679 US customs and border protection. Some of the terrain is 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:15.880 very difficult to traverse. We have a different legal structure 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:19.920 with Canada. We have a Safe third Country agreement with 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:25.760 Canada and the reality and Canada also has different approaches 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:30.200 to migration into their country. Then do some of the 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:31.720 countries in Latin America. 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:34.040 If you wanted to come into this country illegally. Let's 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:36.120 suppose you were you want to come in. 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:38.320 Let's say if one wanted to come in. 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.600 One wanted to what would you recommend to that one 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:44.040 person that they do about the best way to get 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:45.160 into this country illegally? 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:46.400 I would. 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.840 I would caution them and encourage them to apply for 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:57.640 a visa, and if in fact they seek humanitarian relief, 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:03.000 to actually avail them themselves of the lawful pathways that 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:07.640 we have established so that they don't risk their lives 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:10.160 in the hands of smugglers. 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:14.200 All right, what percentage of people die trying to get 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.440 into this country, they're shot by somebody or something. 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:22.880 I don't know, David, a percentage, but I will share 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:27.320 with you having spoken to families who cross the Dairy 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:35.240 enn the area between Colombia and Panama, the suffering and 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:37.280 the trauma is extraordinary. 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:39.600 So what is the country that is sending the most 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:44.560 people illegally over the southern border? Is it Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela. 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:46.520 Where are they mostly coming from? 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:49.680 It varies, It varies from time to time. 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:55.640 I would just say that the population right now, demographically, 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:59.560 the population of individuals whom we are encountering at the 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:03.320 southern border in between the ports of entry predominantly right 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:04.560 now Mexican, Mexican. 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:11.200 Okay, So let's oppose the legislation that didn't pass. Maybe 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:14.480 eventually it'll pass, But until then, can you not administratively 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:16.520 do things that was in the legislation or are you 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:17.160 already doing that? 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:23.680 The legislation did a number of things. The two pillars 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:29.560 were It gave us the legal tools, statutorial statutory tools 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:35.280 to vastly accelerate the adjudication of claims for humanitarian relief, 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:38.320 and that means we could remove people more quickly who 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:41.360 do not qualify and quite frankly, we could give protection 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.360 with finality to people who do much more rapidly, and 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:51.680 it resourced us. It resourced us to effect that dramatic change. 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:58.680 We were talking about alatiece of legislation that would equip 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:02.640 us with four thousand, three hundred more asylum officers, more 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:06.919 immigration judges, just plus up the entire system in a 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.320 way that we now just don't have. 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.719 Okay, let me ask you a few other questions related 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:18.760 to this. So right now, the homeland Department of Homeland 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.640 Security was created after nine to eleven? Do you feel 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:25.600 we are much safer today than we were before nine 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:29.280 to eleven because of the Department? I do much more 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:31.639 and much at a nine to eleven event occur again, 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:32.600 or you. 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:35.400 Know, it is our job and not just the Department 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:40.080 of Homeland Security, but the federal government, in partnership with 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:45.360 state and local, tribal, territorial law enforcement and the American citizenry, 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:50.560 to be vigilant because the threat landscape, as direct array 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:54.360 of the FBI is accurately communicated publicly. 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:55.880 We're in a heightened threat environment. 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:58.639 So a number of people I think from Homeland Security 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:01.760 and or the CIA or NSA have gone to Capitol 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:04.639 Hill and said that TikTok is a danger to our 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:08.320 nation security. But the public hasn't been given that much 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:12.000 detailed information about what the threat is. How much of 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:14.320 a threat to our nation security is TikTok. 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.360 The People's Republic of China. 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:26.080 Acts adversely to the interests of the United States in 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:32.399 different ways. One of those ways is through the dissemination 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:40.119 of disinformation, the intentional communication of false statements, and TikTok 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:46.919 is an extraordinary avenue through which to disseminate disinformation to 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:48.680 millions and millions of people. 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:53.320 But newspapers can disseminate this information. Why is it If 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.320 it's over social media, it's got to be banned. If 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:58.919 a newspaper says the kind of same things that is 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:01.520 over TikTok wouldn't be banned because of the First Amendment. 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:05.000 Why is the First Amendment not protecting the TikTok social 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:06.199 media devices? 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:11.320 Well, it's not to me an issue of the First Amendment. 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:15.760 It's an issue of security. As we are talking about 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:20.679 a company and an algorithm that is controlled by a 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:26.040 foreign state that acts adversely to the interests of the 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:29.120 United States, and we have an obligation. 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:31.800 To protect Americans. 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:34.320 But the presumption is that people aren't smart enough to 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:37.440 know that it's disinformation and they can't make the decision 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:39.280 for themselves. Is that right? 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:45.080 Well, we're talking about many, many young people that access TikTok. 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:48.159 I would posit that in this country we don't have 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.560 the level of digital literacy that I think we. 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:53.760 Would all want. 0:19:54.400 --> 0:20:00.159 We're all vulnerable to disinformation, and the reality is is 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:03.160 that we have an obligation to safeguard against it. We're 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:06.440 talking about the intentional dissemination of false information. 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:09.640 Okay, I should disclose that my firm is an investor 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:12.960 in White Dance, so I'm not personally an investor, but 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:15.199 my firm did invest in it. So let me go 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:19.800 on to another subject then, Okay, so what is you know? 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:21.600 My answers would have stayed the same had I known 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:23.400 that at the outset. 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:25.560 Okay, I didn't think you were going to change. But 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.639 do you have children who ever watch TikTok or you 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:30.640 tell them not to do that? 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:34.879 You know the one maxim from law school that I 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:39.159 remember very clearly. I don't think our older daughter it 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:42.159 looks at TikTok, our younger daughter does. 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:46.880 The law abhors a useless act. That is a maxim I. 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:50.280 Remember, And so if I admonished our nineteen year old 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:54.640 daughter to not access TikTok, I'm not sure I would succeed. 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:57.240 Okay, do you ever watch TikTok yourself? 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:02.320 She is a digitally no, she is a digitally literate 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:04.400 consumer of information. 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:08.080 What is the biggest security threat to the United States 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:09.320 right now in your view? 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:13.880 So I would in the terrorism context, I would say 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:19.879 the threat of foreign terrorism has re emerged with a 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:24.679 greater level of significance, and the threat of domestic violent 0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:31.440 extremists individuals or loose affiliations of individuals who are radicalized 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:36.679 to violence because of ideologies of hate which are only increasing, 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:42.440 especially after the October seventh terrorist attacks against Israel, of 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:49.240 anti government sentiments, false narratives, other narratives propagated on. 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:53.040 But you feel better about our homeland security today than 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:55.120 you did ten years ago or twenty years ago, you think, 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:55.560 I do? 0:21:55.640 --> 0:22:00.640 I think the Department and the Homeland Security Prize writ 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:03.800 large has matured and advanced tremendously. 0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:08.720 And today who are the best at cyber terrorism? Is 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:13.639 it China? North Korea? Who do you think has the 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:16.440 greatest capabilities of doing damage to our country. In terms 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:18.480 of foreign countries through cyber. 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:23.520 I would say there are four China, Russia, Iran, and 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:25.359 North Korea, okay. 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:30.880 And in our country you can go if you're really 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:32.840 good at cyber or something like that, you can go 0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:35.159 work for a venture firm, make lots of money and 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:37.720 so forth. If you go work in the US government, 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:39.679 you're not going to get paid as much. So is 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:43.080 the US government able to get really top flight cyber 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:46.760 people who can compete with the people from overseas, or 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:48.960 do we not have the best people in our government 0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:51.800 working on these problems because we can't pay them enough. 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:58.040 We have the best people in the government, and there 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:02.960 are the best people in the private sector as well. 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:08.160 You raise an issue where we had a debate internally 0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:14.240 to draw to attract the best cyber talent, should we 0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:19.359 increase the salaries of those individuals to be able to 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:22.679 better compete. We of course cannot close the divide, but 0:23:22.760 --> 0:23:26.639 we could shrink it and come out. And so I 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:32.000 lost this debate because we did increase the salaries. And 0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:35.600 my position is very difficult for me to stand in 0:23:35.680 --> 0:23:38.920 front of a group of border patrol agents that risk 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:42.760 their lives every day, risk their lives every day and 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:45.200 say I've got to pay cyber talent. I got to 0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:47.800 kick up their salary a little bit to come to 0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:49.520 work for the United States of America. 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:50.800 Because I will tell you. 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:57.119 The compensation in public service is different than a material compensation. 0:23:57.720 --> 0:24:00.359 So there are your sense of fulfillment, and there is 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:03.880 a commitment to service. And if one does not feel 0:24:04.400 --> 0:24:09.440 that that is enough, then then one should choose otherwise. 0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:12.280 So I disagreed with the plus. 0:24:12.000 --> 0:24:14.040 Up but didn't get done. 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:14.880 Oh no, it got done. 0:24:14.920 --> 0:24:17.520 It got done. So now we're paying people five percent more. 0:24:17.640 --> 0:24:21.680 We're paying people a little bit more. And we look 0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:23.000 in AI talent. 0:24:23.359 --> 0:24:27.200 Okay, we have an AI recruiting effort underway, and I've 0:24:27.280 --> 0:24:30.960 hit the road in recruiting. Uh you know data scientists 0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:33.880 and the like. And I don't talk to them about 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:38.200 the salary. I talk to them about what it means. 0:24:38.240 --> 0:24:40.960 Well, are you using AI now already to kind of help? 0:24:41.080 --> 0:24:44.399 We are, We are, and our department is leading in 0:24:44.440 --> 0:24:44.760 the use. 0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:47.320 And you give us any examples without violating now security 0:24:47.320 --> 0:24:49.119 about how AI is helping. 0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:51.359 So let me let me let me share with you 0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:57.480 one example of how it has demonstrated its capacity for 0:24:57.600 --> 0:25:01.719 good as well as otherwise. And then I'll share with 0:25:01.760 --> 0:25:06.840 you a couple pilots that we have going on. We 0:25:07.000 --> 0:25:14.639 fight online child sexual exploitation and abuse. Eighty million images disseminated. 0:25:14.000 --> 0:25:15.200