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Speaker 1: And now Move the Sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks.

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Speaker 2: What's up, everybody. Welcome to Move the Sticks. DJ here

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Speaker 2: and excited for this episode today because I've got a

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Speaker 2: good friend that's going to join the show. It's Ken Coleman.

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Speaker 2: He's been on before. If you're familiar with the name,

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Speaker 2: it's because you are a big fan of his leadership

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Speaker 2: work over the years. Really one of the industry leaders

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Speaker 2: when it comes to leaders business professionals. He's been helped

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Speaker 2: in the finance world as well. He's got a great

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Speaker 2: new show that's out. You can find it on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: It is phenomenal. You can find the podcast as well

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Speaker 2: front Row Seats. It's an interview style show and Ken

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Speaker 2: is to me the best interviewer that I that I've

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Speaker 2: ever listened to. I've followed him for years and years

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Speaker 2: and years. Entre Leadership was kind of his baby for

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Speaker 2: a while, where he just brought on a business leader

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Speaker 2: and have great conversations and always learned not just a

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Speaker 2: lot from the person he was interviewing, but learned a

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Speaker 2: lot from him as an interviewer and in scouting and

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Speaker 2: in personnel work. You know, it's a big part of it.

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Speaker 2: You're trying to get to know the player, get to

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Speaker 2: know the person as well as the player, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of that has to do with the interviews and

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Speaker 2: the conversations that you have. So I wanted to bring

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Speaker 2: Ken on to kind of go through what he's doing,

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Speaker 2: what he's up to, and then also see if we

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Speaker 2: can't learn a little bit more about the best ways

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Speaker 2: to approach the interview process. And it's something that works

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Speaker 2: in the business world as well as a sports world.

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Speaker 2: Something I've always long been fascinated by. Bucky has as well.

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Speaker 2: Bucky got he got crushed in some LA traffic today,

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Speaker 2: so he got he was not able to get in

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Speaker 2: for this conversation, which I know is going to bum

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Speaker 2: him out, but I know he's going to enjoy listening

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Speaker 2: to it, and I hope you do too. Here's my

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Speaker 2: conversation with Ken Coleman. Well, Ken, I appreciate you taking

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Speaker 2: some time for us today.

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Speaker 1: Man.

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Speaker 2: It's it's something I've always treasured, our friendship, our conversations

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Speaker 2: over the years, and I'm always I'm always fascinated to

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Speaker 2: see where life has taken you and and what you're

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Speaker 2: getting into now. And I want to start this thing

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Speaker 2: off First of all, if you just let everybody know

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Speaker 2: what you've been working on and your special project you've

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Speaker 2: got cranked up here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we just launched a new show. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: fun when you've been doing media as long as I've

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Speaker 1: been doing it and having a show, and I'm on

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Speaker 1: the Ramsey Network with Dave Ramsey, a co host his show,

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Speaker 1: which is now called The Ramsey Show. I've been doing

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Speaker 1: that for several years. But we launched a new project

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Speaker 1: that I've been really passionate about for a while. It's

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Speaker 1: called Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman, and it's an

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Speaker 1: interview show. But the difference between this format and every

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Speaker 1: other interview show is I borrowed a page from one

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Speaker 1: of my all time favorite shows called Inside the Actors

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Speaker 1: Studio on Bravo with James Lipton, the famed theater teacher,

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Speaker 1: and he would bring in directors and producers and actors

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Speaker 1: and he would interview them in front of his class

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Speaker 1: and then give the class the opportunity to ask questions.

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Speaker 1: And it stuck in my mind that one day I'd

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Speaker 1: like to be able to do that in the world

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Speaker 1: of professional development and leadership development, and so we do

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Speaker 1: it here in Nashville and Ramsey Studios, and we have

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Speaker 1: a live audi and they sit around us. It's very

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Speaker 1: intimate and they're part of the conversation. They're not props.

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Speaker 1: And that's something that has always mattered to me because

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Speaker 1: I just believe so deeply in the power of a

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Speaker 1: question that asking questions and asking good questions is the

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Speaker 1: key to unlocking everything we need to learn in life.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's just one of the greatest personal

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Speaker 1: growth professional growth tactics that we can use is always

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Speaker 1: be ready with the question. You know that wise person

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Speaker 1: that you run into at the coffee shop, you know

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Speaker 1: he's exited his company twenty five years ago and he

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Speaker 1: looks like some old dude who's just living his best life. Man,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna meet that guy at the coffee shop. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna talk to him, and I'm gonna have one question

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Speaker 1: at least, loaded up and ready to go, because that

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Speaker 1: guy's forgotten more about business than maybe I'll ever learn.

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Speaker 1: It's that kind of thing. It's not just you know,

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Speaker 1: having a show in a podcast. So the show's called

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Speaker 1: front Row Seat. We're doing deep dive conversations around three

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Speaker 1: key areas getting better personally, moving up professionally and leading

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Speaker 1: effectively and DJ Those are really the three steps that

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Speaker 1: I think you have to take to win as a professional.

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Speaker 1: I know you've got a professional audience, you how they

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Speaker 1: love football, But getting better personally, I'm bringing a better

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Speaker 1: version of me to work. So that's the physical, you know,

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Speaker 1: So I've got the energy, so I'm sleeping well, you know,

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Speaker 1: my health is good, so that I'm bringing the best

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Speaker 1: version of me to work. That's the emotional, the mental,

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Speaker 1: the relational. If your personal life is on fire, I

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Speaker 1: promise you it's coming to the office with you. And

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Speaker 1: then the idea of spiritual growth as well. You know,

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Speaker 1: if that's something that you're intrigued by, you know we're

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Speaker 1: going to have those conversations because we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: whole person. And then, of course, moving up, we get

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Speaker 1: at hard skilled, soft skills. And then at some point

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Speaker 1: in the American workplace, if you're really doing well and

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Speaker 1: you're getting better and you are moving up, you will

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Speaker 1: move into a leadership role. And one of the tragedies

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Speaker 1: in the American business place is we don't train people

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Speaker 1: for leadership very well. We just promote them. And many

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Speaker 1: times we'll take a stud salesperson and she or he

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Speaker 1: they don't want to move up. They want to crush

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Speaker 1: it in sales. That's what they're great at. And we

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Speaker 1: put them into a management or coaching role and they

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Speaker 1: never want to coach. They may not be good at coaching,

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Speaker 1: and yet we put them there. So those are the

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Speaker 1: three things that we're discussing, and we're going deep dive

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Speaker 1: very specific course in those three buckets, getting better, moving up,

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Speaker 1: and leading.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's so many different fascinating areas. I like to

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Speaker 2: go with that. And I already had a couple things

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Speaker 2: in the holster. And then as you kept going, I'm like, nope, nope,

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Speaker 2: I want to go in this in a different direction.

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Speaker 2: Here what you just said. I want to get your

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Speaker 2: opinion on this. We see all the time, coach, you

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Speaker 2: get hired to be a head coach, which is a

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Speaker 2: job most people haven't held.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: They start out as a position coach and their coordinator,

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Speaker 2: and then that usually the popular coordinator is a successful coordinators.

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Speaker 2: That's the pool of people we go to find head coaches.

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Speaker 2: It's not always you know, especially in the NFL, you're

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Speaker 2: not usually going to get a college coach. That's a rarity.

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Speaker 2: Nine times out of ten, it's going to be someone

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Speaker 2: who hasn't held that position at that level. So one

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Speaker 2: of the biggest challenges they have is, I'm an offensive coordinator.

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Speaker 2: I've called plays, I've been successful, which has led to

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Speaker 2: me getting a promotion and a new job with a

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Speaker 2: new job description and a lot The majority of those

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Speaker 2: guys will say, well, I'm going to continue to call

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Speaker 2: plays because that's what I'm good at and that's why

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Speaker 2: I got this position, whereas others will say, well, now

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Speaker 2: I'm the head coach, I need to delegate that and

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Speaker 2: then I need to work focus on the entire organization,

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Speaker 2: the entire team here. What would be your advice to

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Speaker 2: someone who's getting a head coaching job without head coaching

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Speaker 2: experience in that regard, Yeah, I think.

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Speaker 1: I'd stick with what you're really, really good at. In

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Speaker 1: other words, if you came to this position because of

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Speaker 1: your play calling ability, whether that's on the defensive side

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Speaker 1: or the offensive side, then I do believe you got

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Speaker 1: to stick to that core strength because that's you at

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Speaker 1: your best. See, the leader is always the lid to

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Speaker 1: the organization, and so when a leader hits his lid,

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Speaker 1: I got bad news for you. The organization is going

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Speaker 1: to hit its lid. So you go from being a

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Speaker 1: great offensive coordinator and you go to being a head

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Speaker 1: coach and you go, Okay, I'm really good at calm plays,

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Speaker 1: so I'm gonna stick with that. But I've got all

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Speaker 1: these other responsibilities. And for simplicity and the answer, let's

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Speaker 1: say that there's five brand new, big responsibilities that you

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Speaker 1: now have as a head coach that you didn't have

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Speaker 1: as an OC. All right, In that case, you've got

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Speaker 1: to look at that and go, Okay, where do I

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Speaker 1: have some natural strengths in these five new responsibilities? And boy,

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Speaker 1: if there's a lot of administrative detail and I'm not

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Speaker 1: naturally gifted there and I'm kind of a creative whiz,

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Speaker 1: then I better get myself somebody, whether it's a personal

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Speaker 1: assistant or I hire a coach who's really good operationally,

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Speaker 1: and I create a position where they essentially are executing

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Speaker 1: on those things. But getting my buy in, I got

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Speaker 1: to make the call. But I'm not going to do

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Speaker 1: because I struggle in an area. I mean, that's what

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Speaker 1: I think needs to happen on the corporate level, but

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Speaker 1: certainly at the head coaching level. If I'm not good

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Speaker 1: with people. You know, if I'm not a great communicator.

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Speaker 2: Which there are guys like that who are geniuses savants

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Speaker 2: in terms of looking at scheme, calling plays, but the

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Speaker 2: interrelational aspect of being a head coach not a strength.

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Speaker 1: I'll give you an example, so I don't get you

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Speaker 1: in trouble. Yeah, but I know this from my relationships

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Speaker 1: in the NFL with players and coaches who coach with

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Speaker 1: this guy. And I think the classic example that is

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Speaker 1: Mike Martz. I don't know if that ever got to you,

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Speaker 1: but the word I got was that Mike was an

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Speaker 1: absolute wizard with call and plays, not very strong interpersonally.

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Speaker 1: And I'm keeping that very nice and professional. So if

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Speaker 1: that's the case, then you've got to be aware of

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Speaker 1: that and go, okay, who can run interference relationally with me?

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Speaker 1: And so I begin to deputize key leaders and coaches

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Speaker 1: who can fill that void with the team, and I,

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Speaker 1: as head coach, stay in my strength zone. Now that's

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Speaker 1: very hard to do, but that's the true answer to

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Speaker 1: your question. If you are somebody who's not been a

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Speaker 1: head coach and you've got some limitations, you know, you

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Speaker 1: look at a guy like Dan Campbell, he stands out

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Speaker 1: to me right now as a guy who just was

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Speaker 1: born to be a head coach. I don't know anything

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Speaker 1: about his ex as and O's ability, but I know

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Speaker 1: that he connects to grown men who are millionaires, no question.

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Speaker 1: And so you go, okay, So it's incumbent on Dan

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Speaker 1: Campbell to have an offensive coordinator whiz like he just did.

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Speaker 1: And now he loses into the Bears. He better feel that,

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Speaker 1: you know, and and.

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Speaker 2: The defensive coordinator to the Jets.

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Speaker 1: He lost both his coordinator. So okay, So you know

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Speaker 1: this is the question will the Lions be the same team.

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Speaker 1: The head coach matters so much, and the culture matters

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Speaker 1: so much. However, you told me this once. You told

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Speaker 1: me this once, and that kind of shocked me. Actually,

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Speaker 1: we were hanging out in a hotel lobby in Nashville once,

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Speaker 1: hanging out, and you said to me, go, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the NFL, these guys don't care much about the

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Speaker 1: ra ra stuff. They just put me in a position

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Speaker 1: to play well and win. And that threw me off

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Speaker 1: a little bit. I remember going, really, but I get

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Speaker 1: what you're saying, and I have to take what you're

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Speaker 1: saying at face value. But there's something about Dan Campbell

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Speaker 1: what he's done to create at least a positive culture,

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Speaker 1: and these guys will play hard for him. Now he's

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Speaker 1: got that in spades, but what he doesn't have, he's

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Speaker 1: going to have to surround himself with guys and I

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Speaker 1: think that's the key. And by the way, I'm just

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Speaker 1: describing as CEO, a really good CEO level five leader

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Speaker 1: that Jim Collins talks about in good Great that's what

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Speaker 1: I just described.

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Speaker 2: Yeah to me, and you can talk about, okay, it's

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Speaker 2: a tactician or someone who's a motivator, the different leadership

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Speaker 2: styles you might have in those positions. To me, it

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Speaker 2: comes down to buy in whatever it is, and in

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Speaker 2: order to get buy in, you better be authentic. Because

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Speaker 2: if you were someone who was the brainiac play caller

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Speaker 2: without the personality and you come into the new position,

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Speaker 2: we've seen it with the Bill Belichick tree for years

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Speaker 2: and years, the vast majority of those guys weren't successful.

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Speaker 2: They're trying to be Belichick light and that's not who

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Speaker 2: they were. So to me, I think authenticity is a

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Speaker 2: huge component there. I want to go back to what

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Speaker 2: you're saying it just a little bit earlier talking about

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Speaker 2: the importance of questions because for you know, with a

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Speaker 2: lot of people that listen to our show that are

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Speaker 2: in personnel, whether that's in college personnel, helping with these

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Speaker 2: college programs, which has now mimicked the NFL in terms

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Speaker 2: of a personnel department, as well as a ton of

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Speaker 2: NFL you know, GM scouts executives that listen to this thing.

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Speaker 2: And one of the challenges I've always been fascinated with

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Speaker 2: is the interview process with players. So you go to

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Speaker 2: the combine, you get ten fifteen minutes with the guy,

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Speaker 2: and I guess I'll open the floor to you of

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Speaker 2: give me, give me an example of a positive of

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Speaker 2: a effective, efficient way to use that time, and then

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Speaker 2: maybe on the other side of that, and I'll give

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Speaker 2: you I'll give you mind to just give you a

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Speaker 2: heads up on that. But ten questions drive me insane,

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Speaker 2: drive me on a scale of one. As soon as

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Speaker 2: I hear on a scale of I'm out, I'm out

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Speaker 2: on that.

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Speaker 1: So I'll give you and tell you that I would

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Speaker 1: probably start to itch if I sat in on those interviews,

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Speaker 1: because that's what I do for a living. And so

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you some advice to your audience that

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Speaker 1: has nothing to do with the specifics that you're looking for,

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Speaker 1: because I don't know what you all are looking for,

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Speaker 1: but I really want to add value to you, and

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Speaker 1: I think this is going to do it. And this

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Speaker 1: is coming from a guy who's coached over ten thousand

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Speaker 1: people live on the radio. Okay, so I've learned how

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Speaker 1: to do professional coaching, and any coach seminar, any licensing

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Speaker 1: or training you go through, they're going to teach you this.

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Speaker 1: And this is what I'm gonna give you. Stop asking

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Speaker 1: why questions. Remove the word why at the beginning of

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Speaker 1: any question, and so in your prep next time you're

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Speaker 1: interviewing a kid, whether it be in the college, you're

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Speaker 1: just talking to a kid, stop using the word why.

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Speaker 1: Here's what we know from psychology that it immediately puts

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Speaker 1: that person on the defensive, and use a what question,

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Speaker 1: and hostage negotiators use this. So anytime you're tempted to

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Speaker 1: ask a question and you would normally put the word

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Speaker 1: why in it. And I'd go so far as to

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Speaker 1: train yourself on this by putting an index card or

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Speaker 1: something in front of you, a sticky note when you got

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Speaker 1: these interviews and say, don't use the word why or

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Speaker 1: know why, and then train your brain to go what,

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Speaker 1: and it changes the question. Give you an example, why

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Speaker 1: are you having issues with all the girls you're dating?

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Speaker 1: It keeps popping up. You're gonna put a kid on

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Speaker 1: the defensive. What you got to do is go what

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Speaker 1: do you see as some patterns in your life that

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Speaker 1: have gotten you into some stuff that I know you're

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Speaker 1: not proud of and you want to grow through. What

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Speaker 1: do you think is going on there now? I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: tell you that may not seem like a big difference,

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Speaker 1: but it's a massive difference. And just begin to watch

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Speaker 1: people open up when you ask what. When you ask why,

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Speaker 1: even the question itself becomes very pointed. But when you

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Speaker 1: ask what, you take on this curiosity stance, which is

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Speaker 1: what a question should be, and it essentially hands the

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Speaker 1: ball back to that person and they don't feel like

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Speaker 1: they've got to answer and defend what you've just said.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you, I think that'd be the advice

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Speaker 1: that I would give, And watch the responses become a

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Speaker 1: more honest and and be rich. They're gonna be richer

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Speaker 1: answers and they're gonna give you and so all professional coaches.

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Speaker 1: If I'm doing a financial coaching session or if I'm

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Speaker 1: doing a professional coaching session with a CEO DJ, I'm

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Speaker 1: constantly asking what CEO gives me an answer, then I

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Speaker 1: go what, And I keep following up with what? What? What?

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Speaker 1: What makes you feel that way? You know what? What

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Speaker 1: in your past do you think has influenced that? And man,

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Speaker 1: you're six feet deep right now, and now you're getting

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Speaker 1: to see the real person. And when you're evaluating talent,

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Speaker 1: whether again they're already in your college program and you're

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out should I put them on the field?

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Speaker 1: Do they got are there's their head where it needs

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Speaker 1: to be for Saturday? Man, I'm using what questions?

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Speaker 2: So I'm gonna give you my favorite one that I've

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Speaker 2: you know, and I've been asking people about this for,

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Speaker 2: you know, twenty years, trying to figure out the best

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Speaker 2: way to get a good answer, a usable, learnable answer

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Speaker 2: from these players as they're coming through the process. So

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Speaker 2: this is my favorite one that I've heard over the years,

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Speaker 2: is what does a successful rookie season look like?

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Speaker 1: For you? Beautiful?

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Speaker 2: And You'll be amazed. That seems like a very simple question.

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Speaker 2: You'll be amazed what you can learn from that from

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Speaker 2: two different levels here. The first thing is you'll think

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Speaker 2: you'll see guys who think team first, and you'll see

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Speaker 2: guys who think individually first. Because you know, you'll hear

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Speaker 2: guys say what is a successful work year? Well, we're

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Speaker 2: gonna we're gonna have a winning season, We're gonna win

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Speaker 2: the division, We're gonna, you know, go to the playoffs

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Speaker 2: and win a Super Bowl. That's what is a success

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Speaker 2: to me. And you're gonna have other people say what

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Speaker 2: a successful year to me is. I'm gonna have growth.

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Speaker 2: They'll talk about how I'm gonna get better. I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: be better in the in game one than I was

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Speaker 2: in the preseason. I'm gonna be better Week eight, and

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna, you know, just continue to get better throughout

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Speaker 2: my rookie yar, I'm gonna learn, I'm gonna grow. And

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Speaker 2: then you'll hear other people who give a very simple

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Speaker 2: answer of I'm gonna be the rookie of the year.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna go to the Pro Bowl,

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Speaker 2: you know, like, and I'm not saying that that's completely wrong,

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Speaker 2: but I'm saying, you're going to learn a lot about

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Speaker 2: the wiring of the player when you just ask.

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Speaker 1: You just described that so beautifully, because you're gonna get

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Speaker 1: two very different answers. You know, here's one. Here's one

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Speaker 1: that I would use. I'd love to give samples and

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Speaker 1: your audience could reject this one. But listening to you

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Speaker 1: talk it made me think of something. Here's here's a

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Speaker 1: really fun question for evaluating NFL talent. I'd ask them

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Speaker 1: what questions ideally is the media asking you after a

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Speaker 1: game on Sunday? Make them think first of all, because

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Speaker 1: they got to think through that, and what I just

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Speaker 1: did to them there was I'm taking them to postgame

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Speaker 1: and the media is they're sitting in front of the

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Speaker 1: media and the media is asking questions, and you're making

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Speaker 1: them really dig there by going what are the ideal questions?

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Speaker 1: What questions do you want to hear from the media

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Speaker 1: based on your performance on Sundays? Now that makes a

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Speaker 1: kid think first of all, and to your point, it's

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Speaker 1: going to reveal some depth. You know, I want to

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Speaker 1: hear a kid say, you know, you just were all

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Speaker 1: over the field today, what supplements are you taking? I

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Speaker 1: want them to be creative, you know, like like because

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Speaker 1: I got so much juice on the field, and I'm

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Speaker 1: everywhere and the announcers were calling my name all day long.

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Speaker 1: You know that you want them saying, So that's a

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Speaker 1: creative way to make a kid actually think and so

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Speaker 1: fun thing there. They don't have to be great at

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Speaker 1: the answer right away, but I'll tell you the ones

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Speaker 1: that can quickly get there and give you some great answers.

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Speaker 1: You know, two things are going on. One they got

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Speaker 1: some character. There's some character revealed in the answer. But

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Speaker 1: the ones that are quick on their feet, that kind

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Speaker 1: of a question is going to reveal the kids that

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Speaker 1: can actually process information pretty quickly. I would think I

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Speaker 1: could be wrong on that, but take them to a

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Speaker 1: snail and make them process a scenario. I like that.

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Speaker 2: One of the things we've always talked about with quarterbacks,

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Speaker 2: and I'm curious if this carries over into the business

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Speaker 2: world and on a leadership skial. We've we've found over

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Speaker 2: the years that recall has been important with quarterbacks. So

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Speaker 2: if I can ask you, you know, hey, I'm we

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Speaker 2: always tell the story about Patrick Mahomes. When Patrick Mahomes

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Speaker 2: came in the studio two weeks before the draft and

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Speaker 2: there was questions about Mahomes I had him. Bucky did

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Speaker 2: as well about Okay, he kind of played reckless at

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Speaker 2: Texas Tech. You know, footwork was kind of all over

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Speaker 2: the place. This is just this wild stallion with this

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Speaker 2: huge arm, and you're kind of like, I don't know

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Speaker 2: what what do I make of this? Nobody from this

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Speaker 2: system has really been successful at the next level. But man,

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Speaker 2: he's got all these tools. And we brought him in

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Speaker 2: just before the draft, and I remember saying, you know,

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Speaker 2: TCU Week three, third quarter, you guys are driving. You know,

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Speaker 2: do you remember you know how that ended? What that

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Speaker 2: drive looked like. He gave me the play call, the

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Speaker 2: coverage they were in the read that he made and

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Speaker 2: told me everything about the whole process and it and

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Speaker 2: for some reason, and I don't know the exact answer,

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Speaker 2: I just feel like some of it is, you know,

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Speaker 2: being successful in the NFL is about a rolldex. It's

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Speaker 2: just a roll dex of experiences and then being able

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Speaker 2: to call back and rely on those experiences, think about

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Speaker 2: you know, the great all timers, And this is in

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Speaker 2: any sport. Usually what happens is you gain your wisdom

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Speaker 2: and your knowledge and your experience that goes up while

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Speaker 2: your talent level and athleticism goes down. But there's a

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Speaker 2: sweet spot in there where they're both meet and that's

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Speaker 2: where you get Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, you know, Lebron, James,

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Speaker 2: Michael Jordan, wherever where that experience and the athleticism is

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Speaker 2: still there. And I think with technology changes and training changes,

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Speaker 2: you're seeing guys able to hang in that zone longer

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Speaker 2: than they ever have before. But to me, recall that

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Speaker 2: roll dex of information is very valuable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know that right there is an example

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Speaker 1: of you know that. So if you're listening to the show,

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Speaker 1: you just heard what DJ said. So now you're coming

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Speaker 1: up with really unique questions to see if we got

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Speaker 1: good strong recall, and now you're designing an interview that

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Speaker 1: is very very specific. You know, we know this from

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Speaker 1: the corporate world, DJ, And this is back to your

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Speaker 1: initial focus here on questions for talent evaluation. You know,

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Speaker 1: we know in the in the corporate world that it's

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Speaker 1: the number one thing that bosses hate is doing job interviews.

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Speaker 1: So they kind of make it up as they go along.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that scouts are doing that or gms.

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Speaker 2: They don't have direction a lot of them have never

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Speaker 2: we've been taught what what a three technique looks like

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Speaker 2: when he gets up the field and the explosiveness and

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Speaker 2: how fluid he is and can you flip your hips?

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Speaker 2: But for the most part, and they'll say you need

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Speaker 2: to go spend time interview this player talk to that

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Speaker 2: they've never taught them how to interview. That's that's not

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Speaker 2: their fault.

431
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,280
Speaker 1: That's right, we'll see. That shocks me. And so I'm

432
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,000
Speaker 1: gonna tell you something right now. I'm so glad you

433
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,240
Speaker 1: revealed that. If you take anything away from this podcast,

434
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 1: and I hope we're adding value to you folks, but

435
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 1: if you get nothing else, become a great question askerr

436
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 1: because that sounds like you now have a massive advantage

437
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:02,120
Speaker 1: in talent assessment and really figuring out because people aren't

438
00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 1: teaching how to ask questions. By the way, Harvard has

439
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,879
Speaker 1: got data on this that it's in the low ninety

440
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,119
Speaker 1: percent of all bad hires happened as a result of

441
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,920
Speaker 1: the interview process. Wow, So this is you know, this

442
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 1: is to me. If you're talent evaluator and you're listening

443
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,119
Speaker 1: and watching this, become a great question asker. It's going

444
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 1: to give you a absolute distinct advantage because you're going

445
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 1: to learn stuff that other people don't learn.

446
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,680
Speaker 2: All right, let's take a quick pause, a quick break,

447
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,400
Speaker 2: and we will get right back to this fascinating conversation

448
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:44,159
Speaker 2: with Ken Coleman. How do you quantify things? This is

449
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 2: something we talked about last week, or maybe it was

450
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 2: two weeks ago, but we know of two teams and

451
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 2: we didn't want to mention the teams to put them

452
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 2: on Front Street, but it was us. It was fascinating

453
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 2: because to give you a little glimpse on the scouting

454
00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,200
Speaker 2: side of things, you go through and you'll have and

455
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 2: when you're writing up you're inside your computer, you'll have

456
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 2: position specific notes. So it'd be like a corner and

457
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 2: have all the different traits that you look for, and

458
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,120
Speaker 2: you we would write comments in there and then you'd

459
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,119
Speaker 2: have your summary, so you'd write, you know, a paragraph

460
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,440
Speaker 2: plus on the player to give the whole the whole

461
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,640
Speaker 2: way we were taught, you know, going back twenty years ago,

462
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,400
Speaker 2: and the way it's always been done is that we're

463
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,120
Speaker 2: going to paint a picture for everybody. So when you're

464
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 2: in the room and you hear us read our report,

465
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 2: you're gonna even if you haven't seen the player. You're

466
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:23,200
Speaker 2: gonna know what he looks like based off how we

467
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 2: write it. But these two teams, and one of which

468
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 2: has been very successful in the NFL, are no longer

469
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 2: writing reports. They are dragging and dropping. So they have

470
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 2: a list of like terms and descriptors, but they've been

471
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 2: able to attach kind of a number system to that.

472
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 2: So when you're writing your report, they're just taking from

473
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 2: that bank and putting it over here. And then what

474
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 2: they've done is now they have data over a long

475
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 2: period of time, like, for instance, you know, I'll just

476
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,400
Speaker 2: make something up her corners that struggle to tackle, Well,

477
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 2: that's been tagged now, so they can go back through

478
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 2: and look and say, well, there's a strong correlation between

479
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 2: owners who don't tackle in college that they are going

480
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 2: to have a hard time in the NFL. Or maybe

481
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 2: there's no correlation at all. But they're able to take

482
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 2: all this data from these reports now and they're able

483
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 2: to quantify things and say this is these are the

484
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,919
Speaker 2: important factors, these ones not so much. This is a good, uh,

485
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 2: you know, idea of of what this should look like

486
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 2: for a successful player. Can you do that in the

487
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 2: business world? And do you believe in this little shift

488
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 2: in philosophy here.

489
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 1: You can't do that in the business world because you

490
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 1: don't have all that data. You don't have true, you

491
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 1: don't have combines. The best you have.

492
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,919
Speaker 2: The best you have is you have spreadsheets in the

493
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 2: performance I guess from your companies, but I don't know what.

494
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, but if you're talking about hiring somebody, yeah, yeah, yeah.

495
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 1: So if you're talking about in the context you just

496
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 1: asked me, they're treing about drafting somebody, if you're talking

497
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 1: about hiring somebody or signing a free agent h in

498
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 1: the corporate world, the best you have as a resume

499
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 1: and some references right now. Once they come to work

500
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 1: for you, you can start measuring things.

501
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,199
Speaker 2: But could you do core key areas like could you

502
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 2: say when you're interviewing somebody and say, hey, these are

503
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 2: the twelve factors that make we believe make a great

504
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 2: employee and a few hundreds or higher than this on

505
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 2: the interview process, we're not going to bring you into

506
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 2: the bilding.

507
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: Yes now to that absolutely, And so they're you can

508
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,120
Speaker 1: do it, and I think that it's helpful to do it.

509
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 1: But what I would focus on is I'd have my Okay,

510
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: let's let's talk about culture stuff. Are they gonna fit

511
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: on the team that we're looking at putting them on.

512
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 1: Let's look at values and stuff like that to see

513
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: if they're a culture fit. I would look at obviously,

514
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 1: skill set. You gotta be super like and you gotta

515
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: know it. You gotta gotta have ways of testing that

516
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:32,479
Speaker 1: in the interview so you know you're not being lied to.

517
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 1: And I'm a big fan of letting somebody do a

518
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: half day's worth of work or something like that, or

519
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: come up with a way to do that, and let's go,

520
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,360
Speaker 1: let's see if they're an actor or if they can produce.

521
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: But I would say, as I heard you talk about that,

522
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: the only thing I would always have a fail safe.

523
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to call it a fail safe for lack

524
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 1: of a better word. I think sometimes we could be

525
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 1: we quantify too much system stuff and we can miss

526
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 1: the diamond in the rough. If you will, you know it.

527
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,199
Speaker 1: You could look at well, they didn't have this, they

528
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 1: didn't have this or this. But I'd want to go, okay,

529
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: but but man, we're looking at him. Why are we

530
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 1: looking at him? What are we missing? And I would

531
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: have some type of system to go. Is there anything

532
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: that we're missing here that that explains why the quantifiable

533
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 1: data isn't matching up? In other words, was the kid

534
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: a good tackler in high school but he wasn't a

535
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 1: good tackler in college? Was he hurt? Yeah? Was he hurt.

536
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 1: I'll give you a real personal example. My son. My

537
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 1: son is an absolute ballhawk. He's gonna be he's gonna

538
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 1: be a senior. And over his career, he's had one

539
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: coach that I'm thinking of who crapped on his spirit.

540
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 1: And by the way, full disclosure, I did not. I'm

541
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: not the parent that goes in during the season and

542
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 1: has the talk. Not the guy at all, the coach

543
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: on speed dial, do not. It never works, first of all,

544
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 1: and then I honored my sons. But here's my point.

545
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: We did meet after the season and the question was posed

546
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,959
Speaker 1: to me, and I pointed out, what you're looking at

547
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: as a lack of effort is not a lack of effort.

548
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you what it is. Because I've raised

549
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: a kid, I know him, and I've not called you

550
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: have I no, you didn't at all? No emails, no,

551
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: no emails. I said, I'm gonna tell you what happened.

552
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: You need to go ask him about this moment and

553
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: this moment in this moment, and I'm gonna tell you

554
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 1: what happened. Yes, it was a lack of effort, but

555
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: you're focused on the lack of effort instead of figuring

556
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 1: out what happened to the kid's spirit. You will not

557
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: get effort from a kid with a crushed spirit. So

558
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: that's one kind of example to go if we feel

559
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: like the kids got a shot, but it doesn't look

560
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 1: like it's adding up over here in all these fancy quantifiables. Yeah,

561
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: I don't want to go. Is there there's something there

562
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 1: that just we coach that we lead that and we

563
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: turned the dial up that would be I hope that

564
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: makes sense. Yeah. I just think if you get so

565
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 1: hung up on principles, you forget that this is a

566
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: people business. And I think that plays in the NFL

567
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: college and I also think it plays in the corporate world.

568
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 1: Don't get so reliant on your principles that you forget

569
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 1: there are some people elements here that could change the principles.

570
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think we've seen an emphasis on that

571
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 2: more so over the last couple of years, where some

572
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 2: of the best teams have shrunk their draft boards. They've

573
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 2: eliminated a lot of people because they're focused on we're

574
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: gonna these are the sixty people who fit. And within

575
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 2: those sixty people, we got to find seven players that

576
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: we can draft that are going to you know, that

577
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 2: have come in here and be successful, but they've made

578
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 2: the commitment. And I know one specifically is one of

579
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 2: the best run organizations of the NFL. We are just

580
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 2: simply not going to miss on the person. We will

581
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 2: forgive ourselves if we miss on the player. We're not

582
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: going to miss on the person on the wiring, on

583
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 2: the makeup and all those things. So we're going to

584
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: shrink our pool. And those are the guys we're going

585
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 2: to select from. And they've they've got adults. They've got

586
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 2: a bunch of adults in the room. This this group

587
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 2: has focused a lot more on players who have you know,

588
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 2: been in college state like like four years. You can

589
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: stay shoot some of them seven years now, but a

590
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 2: lot of four year guys so maybe a red shirt,

591
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: maybe they've played three came after the junior year, but

592
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 2: four years in college guys who've competed in the Senior Bowl.

593
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 2: So in an era where everybody's sitting out games and

594
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,959
Speaker 2: doesn't want These guys just love to compete, so they

595
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 2: want to go compete, and they compete the Senior Bowl.

596
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 2: Maybe they've even gone through the whole combine process and

597
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: haven't backed away from that. But there's just a lot

598
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: of different factors that they've they've they've figured out quite honestly,

599
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 2: that these are the right people and within that, you're

600
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: still going to miss because it's imperfect, you're going to

601
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 2: miss on some players, but they've just made it their

602
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 2: goal that, hey, you know, we will miss on players

603
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 2: here and there, We're not going to strike out on

604
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: the person as much as.

605
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: We have in the past. See I love that. I'll

606
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: just say this real quick again for your audience, trying

607
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: to give your audience something here for you. They're in

608
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: talent evaluating and you're coaching kids. This may be cheesy,

609
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: but if I were in the coaching business, or if

610
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: I was in the talent GM world, I'm all for

611
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: the stars because you got to rank all that stuff,

612
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: because I got to be able to play, especially on Sunday.

613
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: But I'd want to know I'd have a heart scale.

614
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: He's a five star, but what's his heart? And I'm

615
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: talking about character spirit, the juice has this kid got

616
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: crazy levels of grit. I would have a scale on

617
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: the people side and I'd call it heart, and I'd go,

618
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: he's a two He's a five star player. A two

619
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: heart player.

620
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 2: That's a problem.

621
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: Now we look at it and go, why is he

622
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: a two heart? If he was coached poorly in college

623
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: and he had some meglomaniac position. Coach screamed at him

624
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: and his dad screamed at him growing up. No, I'm serious,

625
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: and there's a wound there. Wait a second. If I

626
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: draft this kid and put my arm around him and

627
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: give him affirmation that he's never had before, we got

628
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: ourselves a five heart. So I just think, and again,

629
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: I know it's limited and all this kind of stuff

630
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: in the time people have, but I do believe in

631
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: what you just said. I think that organization they're going

632
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: to win in the long run because and again I

633
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: hate to say this, but everybody talks about Tom Brady,

634
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: but I don't know what everybody missed with that kid.

635
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: We don't know. I don't know. I've never actually sat

636
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: and listened to anybody who scouted him back then. I

637
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: wish I had. I'm biased, I'm a Michigan guy, but

638
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, he didn't have a whole lot

639
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: of quantifiables apparently, but did he But did he? I

640
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: mean did he develop an arm? Did he develop an accuracy?

641
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: Did he develop recall after he got the NFL? Or

642
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: did he already have it? What is your take?

643
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 2: Well, to me, everything got accentuated. I do think his

644
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 2: arm got stronger as he got to the NFL, and

645
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: you saw his part of his thing was you had

646
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: the Drew Henson factor at Michigan. So he's in and

647
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: out the line up there, he's always looking to you know,

648
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 2: he's going to be replaced. Then you have he goes,

649
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 2: he gets sick, goes to the combine, he looks thin,

650
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 2: he's not you know, it doesn't look great from that standpoint.

651
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 2: So that spring didn't go well for him. But then

652
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 2: to me, I think with Tom Brady, we did a

653
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 2: whole thing on this. When I was with the Ravens,

654
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 2: we did a whole study on him in the early

655
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 2: two thousands, once he started to pop, and I had

656
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: I had not scouted when he was I think we're

657
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 2: actually the same age, But I had not been in

658
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 2: the NFL when he came in the NFL. So it

659
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 2: was interesting to sit in there and see and when

660
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 2: you read through the people's reports that had gone in there,

661
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 2: there was a lot of it. A lot of the

662
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 2: good stuff was kind of was hidden inside there, and

663
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 2: you saw things which for my this for me, my

664
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 2: Tom Brady is Brock Purdy. Where Brock Purdy is the

665
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 2: last pick of the draft. He's mister irrelevant and people

666
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 2: can say where does he stack up? Is he top ten,

667
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 2: is he top fifteen, is you know, whatever you want

668
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: to say. The guy has been probably the greatest success

669
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 2: story in NFL draft history. Is nobody's been the last

670
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 2: pick of the draft and gone, you know, done what

671
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 2: he's done as a Super Bowl quarterback and someone who

672
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 2: just got whateverwo hundred and fifty million bucks. But when

673
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 2: I went and called Iowa State and called Matt Campbell,

674
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 2: their head coach after his first year playing, and I said, Coach,

675
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 2: what I miss on this guy? Because when I watched him,

676
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 2: I saw average size, average arm strength, maybe a little

677
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: bit above average athleticism, Like statistically he was accurate, but

678
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: that you know, I didn't jump off the numbers, didn't

679
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 2: jump off the page that way, and he goes, he

680
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 2: goes DJ He is the most competitive practice player I

681
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: have ever coached. He's a maniac competitor. So that was

682
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 2: one piece of that. So that filled in a little

683
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 2: bit of that circle for me. Then I got a

684
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 2: chance to spend a lot of time with Brock and

685
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 2: asked him. I said, hey, without taking crazy pills, because

686
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 2: when you were when I was watching you, I didn't

687
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: like your arm strength was a question for me, you know.

688
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 2: And he said, look, he said, when I finished playing,

689
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 2: I had that sprain to get ready for the draft,

690
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 2: and I, you know, got his personal coaches and they're like,

691
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 2: you are you have worked too hard, You're too muscled up.

692
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: You need to lose weight, you need to be a

693
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 2: little more elastic. So he took that advice and that coaching.

694
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: It limbered him up. It loosened him up. He ended

695
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: up getting more velocity on the ball. He was more

696
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 2: he was just everything about him was more smooth and

697
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 2: more natural. But so then this is kind of competing

698
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 2: the puzzle. And my takeaway was this, Ken, if you

699
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 2: have somebody who has enough ability and they are maniacal workers,

700
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 2: they're incredibly intelligent, and they they will not be denied.

701
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 2: You bet on those guys all day long. They're going

702
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 2: to figure it out. And that's the same thing with

703
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 2: Tom Brady. He's a maniac, competitor, psycho, he's a psychopath.

704
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 2: And those guys are the guys that you just say,

705
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: he'll figure it out.

706
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: That's right. I couldn't agree more. And by the way,

707
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: that's a lesson for corporate America too. You know, that's

708
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: just the hunger. You know, Pat Lenciona, You know Pat,

709
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: Pat's become a dear friend. Lives two streets over from

710
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: me now here in Franklin, Tennessee. And Pat and I

711
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: talked about this one time when he came out with

712
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: the book The Ideal team Player, which has been a

713
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: runaway success, and and he talks about humble, hungry, and

714
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: people smart are the three characteristics. He says smart, but

715
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: what he means is non intelligence. He means like people smart.

716
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 1: But we talked about the hunger thing, and I was

717
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: interviewing him. I said, Pat, I have an opinion on this,

718
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: but I want to ask you first. I said, can

719
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: you teach hunger? He went nope, And I went, I agree,

720
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: like it's not teachable. Yep, either have it or you don't.

721
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 2: Do you agree with that one hundred percent? One hundred percent?

722
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: I agree with it. And it's in their wiring, and

723
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,760
Speaker 2: it's you know, you can use makeup wiring, DNA, whatever

724
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 2: term you want to use with guys, but there is

725
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 2: there's something different and it's hard to describe, but you

726
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 2: know it when you see it. And that goes back

727
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 2: to your point about how do you some things can't

728
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: be quantifiable. I saw it and the players that I've

729
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 2: been around, if you were to just go size up

730
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 2: Ed Reid, you know, with all the different safeties in

731
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 2: the NFL, and just if you just did a lineup

732
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 2: and looked at him, you're like, he's who was this guy?

733
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 2: He's just maybe the best safety of all time. Took

734
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 2: Ray Lewis and put him in a lineup with linebackers,

735
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 2: he wouldn't look any anything out of out of the ordinary.

736
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 2: But they are incredible competitors. Every great player I've ever

737
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 2: been around had that had that right, and they make

738
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 2: others better. They make others better around them.

739
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: I think the hungriest player I've all I've ever in

740
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: my life laid eyes on and I had I had

741
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: the privilege of being his booking agent twenty some years ago.

742
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: Mike Singletary hungriest. Oh yeah, not a particularly big guy.

743
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: Yeah you saw the hunger your word, psychopath when he

744
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: was on the field.

745
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 2: I worked with him.

746
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's who was our linebackers.

747
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 2: This is a groggy, a great Mike Singletary story. So

748
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 2: he come he gets hired as our linebacker coach. We

749
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 2: already have the best defense in the league, ray Lewis,

750
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 2: and the defensive Player of the Year. Ray Lewis has

751
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 2: won the Super Bowl in Super Bowl MVP, like, our

752
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 2: defense is being discussed as one of the all time

753
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,840
Speaker 2: great defenses in NFL history. So Singletary comes in to

754
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 2: be the linebackers coach. He's got I mean, he's not

755
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 2: just ray Lewis. We've got all a room full of

756
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: studs in there, and he's got out there, you know,

757
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 2: like the the cage or like the bars, so you'd

758
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 2: have to stay low like going through him like in

759
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 2: the seventies and eighties. We've got that thing out there,

760
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 2: and I mean an individual before we get to like team,

761
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 2: he is running these guys and training him like it's

762
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 2: it's like it's Jack Lambert like level stuff and like

763
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 2: they had to tell a hey, coach like these this

764
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 2: isn't these guys are already in shape, Like we don't.

765
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 2: We don't need to kill these guys an individual. We

766
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: have the best defense in the league. Let's just teach

767
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: them what to do and keep them.

768
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 1: Remember the Titans.

769
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, but he that was his, that was his,

770
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 2: that was his way of doing it. It was always

771
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 2: gonna be all hard percent of the time. But yeah, Ken,

772
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 2: you've been You've been generous with your time. I'm gonna

773
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,879
Speaker 2: I'm gonna end on this one last question. Okay, uh

774
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 2: and then and I'll let you run. If you were

775
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 2: if you were going to hire a college head coach,

776
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 2: talked a lot about the NFL. If you're going to

777
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 2: hire a college head coach, and the landscape has changed

778
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 2: a lot, and it's you know, n I L and

779
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: transfer portal, all those things. Give me, give me a

780
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 2: couple traits you would look for that will will lead

781
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 2: to at least a probability of success in an ever

782
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 2: changing landscape in college ball.

783
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:04,760
Speaker 1: Man, that is a great question.

784
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 2: A couple because I'm fast, and I'll give you this

785
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 2: little tip here geting point. I am fascinated and talking

786
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 2: I talked to college coaches all the time, and when

787
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 2: I used to talk about recruiting and what do you

788
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 2: look for? And I'm trying to learn, always trying to

789
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 2: learn and grow. There my thing I am fascinated with

790
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 2: is retention. How are you going to keep your players?

791
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 2: No longer playing offense anymore, You've got to play defense

792
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:29,720
Speaker 2: with the guys already in your building.

793
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 1: What is what is the.

794
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 2: Key to retention in a world where these guys are

795
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 2: scattered all over the globe.

796
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 1: That's where I was headed. I'm going to give you

797
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 1: two for shortness of time. This is what I personally

798
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: believe on this one. I think there is Here's I'll

799
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: set it up. There's a difference between coaching men and

800
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: young men. Yeah, and now we've got young men. And

801
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: I was on the phone with an assistant ad at

802
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,919
Speaker 1: the school that I think is on your shirt right there, Fayl. Yeah,

803
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:01,919
Speaker 1: And he was telling me about what we were talking

804
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: about the finances of these young people, and he was

805
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: getting my thoughts on we got to coach these kids

806
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 1: on how to handle their money. They're millionaires now, and

807
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: so we're talking about the financial piece. And that accentuates

808
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: this point. Number one, they're young men. Their frontal lobes

809
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: are not fully developed. They are not a twenty eight

810
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: year old, thirty year old pro. They are eighteen year

811
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: old millionaires who have been treated like the prince of Egypt,

812
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: most of them. So that's our context for these two traits.

813
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: So I think number one, you got to have discernment.

814
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 1: And I do think this is a skill that can

815
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: be developed. I think you can take classes on it.

816
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: I think you can learn how to really ask good

817
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: questions like we've been talking about. But you better develop

818
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 1: the ability to read young men. I mean read them.

819
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 1: They may say one thing, but you better be able

820
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: to figure out what's going on underneath. And the ability

821
00:38:55,400 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 1: to be discerning is huge. The second thing is is

822
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,399
Speaker 1: the ability to build trust. And I think these two

823
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: go hand in hand. You're gonna have to be discerning

824
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: on the front end to be able to ask the questions,

825
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: to be able to pay attention to talk to their

826
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: position coaches, to meet them outside the football field. You're

827
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: gonna have to get your eyes on them and really

828
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: read them and see what's going on with them. And

829
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: then to that level as you begin to ask questions

830
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: and relate with them, then they will begin to trust you.

831
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 1: But I think if you're a great reader of people

832
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,919
Speaker 1: and a great trust builder, those would be the two

833
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: traits that I would want to start with. Because you

834
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 1: can call plays, you can win the living room. There's

835
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: plenty of guys like that. But to your point, if

836
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,280
Speaker 1: retention is the game, and I think it is until

837
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: this landscape changes, I think those would be two of

838
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: the most important traits. Can I read people well, really

839
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: read these kids and be so tuned in, get my

840
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: antenna up, and then can I build trust with them?

841
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: Because if they trust you, they're going to stay with you.

842
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: The really good ones, they're going to the league whether

843
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: they play for you or somebody else. That's the reality.

844
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: So if you want to keep them, you're going to

845
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: keep them because they trust you. They've been told they're

846
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: great their whole life. They got pressure to take care

847
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 1: of their family, they got pressure from the media. You

848
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 1: guys know all the things. But to the extent that

849
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,439
Speaker 1: you can read them and build trust with them, I

850
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 1: think that gives you the edge on retention.

851
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 2: That is a phenomenal way to wrap this thing up, man,

852
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 2: because it is to me. I think there's real advantages

853
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 2: to be had out there, and it's not just who

854
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 2: has the deepest pocketbook. In a world where every day

855
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: you're looking to see who was able to reel one in,

856
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 2: we don't ever see the headlines of who was able

857
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 2: to keep one in the fold. And I think that

858
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 2: might be what's more important in terms of the teams

859
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 2: that are going to ultimately get the big prize out

860
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 2: there is not only who you go out and get,

861
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: but who you hold on to. Who do you keep

862
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 2: so great advice from Ken there. I hope you guys

863
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 2: have enjoyed this conversation as much as I have. I

864
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:58,839
Speaker 2: know I kept you a little bit long there, Ken,

865
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 2: but you are You're one of my favorites, man. I

866
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,280
Speaker 2: appreciate your friendship and I always I always take pages

867
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 2: full of notes when we get a chance to get together.

868
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 2: I appreciate you, buddy.

869
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate you. You're the best in the business. ESPN

870
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: better back up a Brinks truck to you, because you're

871
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: the best there is.

872
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 2: They might be buying it. Who knows, they might be

873
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 2: buying the whole network. I don't know why, I know

874
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,479
Speaker 2: I heard that crazy. I just think you're the best

875
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 2: there is.

876
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 1: Your preparation, your kindness, and also I want to brag

877
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 1: to your audience of what a true gentleman and true

878
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 1: great man, husband and father you are behind the scenes.

879
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:35,280
Speaker 1: He's not just a whiz with his ability to discern.

880
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: You get the gift to discernment, and it's been very

881
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 1: obvious as you've shined on the draft coverage. That's not

882
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: just preparation. You do have discernment. And I appreciate you too, Bro.

883
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: Anytime I love talking leadership of football and culture on

884
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 1: stuff like this, I don't get to do these podcasts

885
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: as much as I like, so it's always fun to

886
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 1: be with you.

887
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 2: You're the best I know. Everybody enjoyed this as much

888
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 2: as I have. I appreciate you guys hanging with us,

889
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 2: and we'll see you next time. Right here, unmoved the

890
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 2: sticks