1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm not going to 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: stuff I never told you protection of I Heart Radio, 3 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: and today's episode is gonna be a bit shorter. I 4 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 1: imagine a bit more conversational. We'll see, because this is 5 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: a topic I am well versed in Somethingtha, you are. 6 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: I feel like this might be one of those like 7 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 1: fictional characters. I'm gonna go now, wait to explain that 8 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: to me again. That might be what's happening. I think so, 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,160 Speaker 1: And I hope you feel free to ask those questions 10 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: because they are important. Um. And also, this was a 11 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: bit of a schedule shuffle, so yeah, it's gonna be 12 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: gonna be a bit more on the fly, I guess. 13 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: But I do feel very very I feel like I 14 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: could talk about this at length. I've been researching this 15 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: my entire life. You've been waiting for this moment, your 16 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: entire life, Yes I have. I'm about to step into 17 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: the spotlight us to like the Mary Sue often does, 18 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 1: because that is what we are talking about today, is there? 19 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: It is the Mary Sue, And uh, They're going to 20 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: be very brief. Spoilers for the new Predator prequel movie Prey, 21 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: which is on Hulu and I really like, if you 22 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: want to check it out. Samantha hasn't seen it, so 23 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: this is gonna be just as well. Yeah, I will 24 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: go and see it because I've been told that I 25 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: needed to see it, and I had planned on seeing it, 26 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 1: but yeah, schedule stuff has prevented me thus far. Because 27 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: when you watch it, you were actually at my house. 28 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: I was just like, I'm sleepy and there was a 29 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: surround sounance situation and I was nervous, and oh my gosh, 30 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: So you got the whole experience, didn't I did you know? 31 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: I was thinking that other day, um at my sixteenth 32 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: birthday party. And this should give you kind of a 33 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: clear view of who I am as a person. I 34 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:58,559 Speaker 1: made all my friends watch Predator. I loved that movie. 35 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: I've never seen any of them, you know, I I 36 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: honestly don't go beyond the first one unless you really 37 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: want to see like the newer ones that are okay. 38 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: I would not go past the version with the older 39 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: ones personally, but I think you'll be final Dow. I'm like, 40 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: I really liked them. Then, well, this is supposed to 41 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: be a prequel too, so yes, this is there's no 42 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: there's no part of it where you're gonna be like, oh, gosh, 43 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 1: there might be there's some nods of oh that's where 44 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: that skull might have come from, or but you'd be 45 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: fine you don't write it. Yes, yes, So before we 46 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: get into this, you can see our past episodes on 47 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: fan fiction, the feminism of Star Wars, UM and the 48 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: Star Wars sequel movies, where we all we talked about 49 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,399 Speaker 1: the Mary Sue a little bit in all of them. Um. 50 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 1: And also a disclaimer, not everyone agrees on the definition 51 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: of a Mary Sue, and there are some examples people 52 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: gives that I don't always agree with. But we'll go 53 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: through that as we do this. And I think it's 54 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: part of the I think we're working up two different 55 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: definitions here, the one that's being used in the mainstream 56 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: and then the one that I know in my heart 57 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: from reading fan fiction. I like that you're reaching for 58 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: your heart, yes, the one that is so dear and 59 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: near to you. Yes, I we're going to talk about it, 60 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: but I will defend a Mary Sue. I will defend 61 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: Mary su Um. Okay, so what inspired this whole thing 62 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: is a couple of days ago at this point, So 63 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: what where are we are where are we some methis? 64 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: August August eleventh, two thousand twenty two. Happy birthday to 65 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: our friend Ben Bolan of conspiracy Nemesis. I haven't seen 66 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: him and talked to him in a while. I love 67 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: how it's kind of a one sided nemesis back, he said. 68 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: He claimed that as well in his podcast. I don't 69 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: know which, which one, I don't know when, but he 70 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: let me know that it has happened, hasn't gone away 71 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: a little bit? Yes, because pandemic means I don't see 72 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: people and then to me, still a pandemic. Yes, Oh yeah, 73 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: well I yeah, I like that. There's a lot of 74 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: questions in vagaries in your name of sis relationship, but 75 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: you have one, and that's what's important. That's yes. Yes. 76 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:17,799 Speaker 1: So a couple of days ago, I saw Mary Sue 77 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: was trending on Twitter and I immediately thought, oh, this 78 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: can't be good. And the reason it was trending was because, um, 79 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: a couple of male YouTubers pretty much called the character 80 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: Nauru played by Amber mid Thunder from a Prey the 81 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: Predator prequel Mary Sue, and then he went viral and 82 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: people were discussing the term and whether or not she 83 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: was one, whether or not was sexist, all of this 84 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: stuff and alright, so minors spoilers. The movie follows Naru, 85 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: who is a young Camachi woman on sort of a 86 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: right of passage where she stalks, hunts, and ultimately confronts Predator. 87 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: If you haven't seen Predator, do I have no idea 88 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: what that is? Um, Predator is an advanced alien hunter 89 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: from another planet. So they kind of do the right 90 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: of passage thing as well. They've got like, they've got 91 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: some intense rules about who you can kill and who 92 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: you can't. But yeah, okay, you're not supposed to kill 93 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: anyone who's sick. You're not supposed to kill anyone who's pregnant, 94 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:25,679 Speaker 1: you're not supposed to kill children. Um. I can't remember 95 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: how usually they stick to those rules. I'm sure there's 96 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: examples where they did it, but in general they do. 97 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: They're very like scary looking. A lot of fan fiction 98 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: written about Predator. Actually, according to my friend Katie, I've 99 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: never read it, but she told me about it. Uh, 100 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,679 Speaker 1: And I saw I saw somebody dresses Predator at Dragon 101 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: Con once and I literally ran away because he scared me. 102 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: He was still big. But anyway, Okay, okay, I'm getting 103 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: away from the point. Uh Nauru in this movie was 104 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: able to succeed where many men had failed in hunting him, 105 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: and this she did this after she had observed him. 106 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 1: She learned his skills and weaknesses and then ultimately exploited 107 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: those weaknesses. But these YouTubers in question believed that there's 108 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: no way she could have defeated Predator as a woman. Um, 109 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: and they also went into critiques about her body type. 110 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: It was a really gross The whole thing was pretty gross. 111 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: And yeah, just by the way, this movie broke streaming 112 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: records and is highly acclaimed. Uh yeah, yeah, all right, 113 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: but these guys weren't happy. He thought she was a 114 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: Mary Sue, which rings us to the question what exactly 115 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: is Mary Sue? And we have talked about this before 116 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: and past episodes. I know you had never heard it, 117 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: I think the first time I brought it up, Samantha, 118 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: I know the literal Mary Sue, which is like characters 119 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: in the past, where like Mary Sue is a song 120 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: Peggy Sue, that's a Peggy Sue. Mary Sue was a 121 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: character in a movie. I forgot what movie it was. 122 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: So that's where I'm like oh it's this No, okay, 123 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: never mind, Yes, we were coming from different yes, yes, um, okay. Well. 124 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: The term mary sue was first coined in a Star 125 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: Trek fanzine in nineteen seventy three by PAULA Smith. You 126 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: can still find it. It's closely related to terms like manic, pixie, 127 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: dream girl, and the cool girl. But in its original 128 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: use it was satire. And if I'm remembering correctly, it 129 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: was this blonde, beautiful woman who starts working on the 130 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: enterprise and every man is just like drooling at her, 131 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: and she's talking about how she doesn't think she's beautiful. 132 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: I might be making that part of but that's a 133 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: very common trope about the that's the pixie manic yes 134 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: type of level. Yes, yes, yes, And I'm going to 135 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: talk more about why I think that might be. But all, okay, 136 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: So mary sus don't always check all of these boxes. 137 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: But here are a few common attributes you. Usually they're 138 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,679 Speaker 1: essentially a fantasy placeholder character. Um someone usually a woman 139 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: who is mostly perfect, black flaws, black depths, maybe he's 140 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: kind of boring or bland, typically viewed as an idealized 141 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: version of the author, the world or a universe who 142 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: evolves around. Then they are capital I important, if I 143 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: had to expound on it. And this is where I 144 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: think we're going into the two definitions that we're using. Territory. 145 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: She's usually beautiful, she's sweet, she's charming, she's shy, she's clumsy, powerful, brave, 146 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: loved by everyone except maybe her abusive family. She's even 147 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: loved by like the enemies, her own enemies. She has 148 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: multiple suitors but doesn't necessarily know it, doesn't necessarily know 149 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: she's beautiful. She has the most lovely singing voice always 150 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: that is a surprise. Oh my goodness, listen to her sing, 151 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: and she's too shy to do it at first, but 152 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: then the confidence comes. But yeah, that might be more 153 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: of a fan fiction one. Uh. And I I do 154 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: think that that is different than the mainstream description people 155 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: are using, and I'm going to talk about that later. Um, 156 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: there are some complications with these definitions. One thing is 157 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: like natural talent or something like magic or the force 158 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: that might make you more naturally talented at things, and 159 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,719 Speaker 1: isn't always consistent, to say the least, like if you 160 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: try to make it makes sense, probably won't make sense. Um, 161 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: And natural talent versus training is something that gets thrown 162 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: around a lot in this discussion, but it seems we're 163 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: far more likely to believe men have natural talent as 164 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: compared to women. Critiques about bad writing is a different 165 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: thing and is also a totally valid thing, But a 166 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: lot of times when the term mary Sue starts getting 167 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: thrown around in the mainstream, it is coming from a 168 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: sexist place. And also I would just like to point 169 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: out a good portion of mainstream so called mary sus 170 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: are written by mail writer, which is something to think on. 171 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: And also a lot of women just aren't given the 172 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: complexity both in character and storylines as male characters are, 173 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: so that is also something to keep in mind. If 174 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: you're curious, there is a male equivalent. The Gary Sue 175 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: are Marty Stu. But you might have noticed that these 176 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: names have not gone mainstream. Occasionally male characters are called 177 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,839 Speaker 1: mary SU's, but it's pretty rare, even though there are 178 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: plenty of male characters that qualified. Based on the definition 179 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: used in the mainstream, which I would say is pretty 180 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: much in every man character are just like the main character, 181 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: could probably be embarrassed by this definition that they are using. 182 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: There is a website that mary Sue um. And they 183 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: are part of some work to reclaim this term, and 184 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: they released an article addressing everything we're talking about a 185 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: few days ago, and specifically this whole thing with Naru 186 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: and prey Um that you should check out if you 187 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: haven't already. But they have a nice section where they're like, 188 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: we're proud of our name Maryusu, Yes you are, yes um. 189 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,199 Speaker 1: So I did want to go over some popular examples, 190 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: and the big one in our more recent times is 191 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: Ray from these Star Wars sequel trilogy. People like to say, oh, 192 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: she was able to use the force so quickly, she 193 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: didn't have like any training. She beat Kylo Wrin. But 194 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: I'm also like, so did finn Um by the way, Um, 195 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: she got so powerful so quickly. Um. And this was 196 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: such a big critique thrown at this character that the 197 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: actor who plays her, Daisy Ridley Um, once said there's 198 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: no such thing as a Ryan Craig and she called 199 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: the whole thing sexist. Um. And I, as I've said, 200 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: many times, maybe Kylo Ren just sucks. I don't know 201 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: why we're so quick to assume she's like so good 202 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: against him because he's so good. Maybe he's not good. Yeah, 203 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,319 Speaker 1: maybe both are true at once. I don't know. It 204 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: is possible that she is more naturally talented it is, 205 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: or that she worked harder or both. And a lot 206 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: of people compare her to Luke Skywalker and they're always like, well, Luke, 207 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: uh failed a lot to say um, and he sometimes 208 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: he sometimes gets called Mary Sue. Some people think he 209 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: got good real quick. Uh. In that article I just 210 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: mentioned from the Mary Suit, they called him my dramatic prince, 211 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: which I loved. But yes. On the other hand, some 212 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: people are like, but you know, he failed hard and 213 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: Empire strikes back and maybe in return the Jedda because 214 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: some people think Darth Vader let him win that fight. 215 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. Uh. He needs rescuing more than Leia 216 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: and definitely more than Ray does. But Ray still struggled 217 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: with darkness, she struggled with connecting the force um, she 218 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: struggled with her own trauma. And again we can argue 219 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: about whether the writing or characterization wasn't there, especially with 220 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: shifting stories and directors. If it's just that we give 221 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: male characters a lot more leeway all of those things, 222 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: I think, and also I do think it's worth mentioning there. 223 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: I know I talked about it in our episode on 224 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: the Star Wars Equals, but there is I call it 225 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: force creep where technology has advanced to the point that 226 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: characters can be more visually powerful, so they might look 227 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 1: more powerful because now they can do more stuff to 228 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: make them look more powerful. Um. And also, yes, nostalgia 229 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 1: does make people very protective of these characters from their childhood. 230 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: But it's I was thinking about this. I feel like 231 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: it's kind of reductive though, because it's almost always a 232 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: woman being compared to what a man can do or did, 233 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: Because almost always the comparisons are done with newer women 234 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: who are introduced into these properties against a fan favorite man. 235 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: Another big example Aria Stark. Somebody recently told me I 236 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: should like issue spoilers for Game of Thrones. I feel 237 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: Game of Thrones has been around long enough. Wow. Really yes, 238 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: she was very firm about it. I was like, okay, well, 239 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: I say, not watched any even they just she had, 240 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: but she was saying somebody else might not have. And 241 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: I was like, huh, like the new kids coming up 242 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: and coming who had been ten I guess when I started, 243 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: and they can watch it. No Shade, No Shade did 244 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: that surprising as like, well, if I don't want to 245 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: be spoiled on a Game of Thrones, do not end well? 246 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: People still have a better taste in their mouth about it. 247 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: How about that it's true? I mean maybe that's yeah, 248 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: we should come back and talk about that. That'd be interesting. 249 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: All right. So you've got these kind of big villains, 250 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: the Night King, the White Walkers throughout the series are 251 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: Stark is the one that eventually kills the night came Yeah. Um, 252 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: people and mostly man we're like, nope, no way. She 253 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: could not have done it. That is impossible. I do 254 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: not buy for a second Aria did it. It's just 255 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: them trying to appease the social justice warriors, um, which 256 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: is funny because why would they. Yeah, no, I know, 257 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: I don't know why they think. This is what we 258 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: want social justice. We want a fictional character to in 259 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,119 Speaker 1: a fictional bad guy, and that's going to solve all 260 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: of our problems. They're gonna be so satisfied with that. Yeah, 261 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: we'll finally like all right, we're good. Now they did it. 262 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: I started had her moment, very brief moment for all 263 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: women out there, yes, and then back away. Um. That 264 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: actually is a big argument. I'm going to talk about 265 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: that more later that it's just companies like bowing to 266 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: the pressure of feminism, right, But I like typically watched 267 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: the same show her whole She suffered the entire time. 268 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: That's in her training, like we wanted to be trained 269 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: and to be a soldier. That was her whole intent 270 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: in her entire life. Went down a really dark path 271 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: and cannot come out of it because she knows she 272 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: has really broken and that is why she travels by herself. Yes, 273 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: her whole thing. Like from the very first episode, she 274 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: was like teaching how defense. I want to be a fighter. 275 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: I want to be as that was her whole thing, right, 276 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: and to just dismiss it as oh that's impossible, day 277 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: and night training for you for a few years, even 278 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: doing it blind, I felt like again with you on 279 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: this one, was like, were we not watching the same 280 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,959 Speaker 1: show because she suffered to be better? Yes? Yes, And 281 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: everyone was like it should have been John Snow, And 282 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: I was like, you just like John Snow and you 283 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: don't like the Aria got there first and she made 284 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: it right, that's too bad for you, That's what I'm saying. 285 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: Like John Snows, I mean to be fair, his character 286 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 1: was built up to be nothing in the end, You're like, wait, 287 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 1: he just goes back. That's it. Well, okay, the huge 288 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: prophecy of him being keen and ruler and the you know, 289 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: the snow to the eyes to the fire. I guess 290 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: this is how it goes. You just both lose. Is 291 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: that that's just the world of the story. But yeah, no, 292 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: come on, it's okay, it is it is. Another big 293 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: one is Jenny Weasley, which I find very fascinating because 294 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: I think she you don't you only get like snippets 295 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: of her story, right, but there's still this idea of like, 296 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 1: no way she could be that powerful, because she's always 297 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: kind of described as someone who could do like these 298 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: Texas are charms. So well, but then that the whole 299 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 1: point of the magic was that some people are just 300 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: naturally able to do so. And when it comes to magic, 301 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: sorry sorry to those out there, but it's not a thing. 302 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: And so to characterize as if you were an expert 303 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: and pretend to know how this would work, it's odd. 304 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: It is. It's a territorial because you're just angry it 305 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: didn't go your way. Yeah, people do get really, I've 306 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: I've been in kind of surprise arguments with people about 307 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: like magic and how magic works, are how the forest works? 308 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 1: And you don't even they've changed that story a million 309 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 1: times in Star Wars, like I don't know, is it 310 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: some parasite in your blood or is it just something happens. Well, yeah, 311 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: it literally was like, may the Force be with you? 312 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: The force is strong in this one. Those seems to 313 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: seem to implicate that there is a measure of natural ability. Yes, 314 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: and someone now was that the original intent of ray 315 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: I don't know. Everybody's very confused, so that's a little 316 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: more arguable maybe. But the Jenny Easley line was always 317 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 1: but that she was powerful from jump, from the very beginning. 318 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 1: When she was taken over by Tom Riddle, she kind 319 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: of had a connection because she was that strong. That's 320 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: what they she implied. We will not name the author 321 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: who did this, but in the book we see that 322 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: she is really powerful. Maybe that's the confusion I think 323 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: she was when she's she was a seventh child of 324 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: like she had a lot going Yeah, to explain this, 325 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: but again she's not like I find this one interesting 326 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: because she's not the main character. So this is proving 327 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: to me it's it's both want to hate her because 328 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: she got together with Harry and they didn't feel it 329 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: was right, so they found every reason to not like her. Well, 330 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: that's why I think this one is more slightly more 331 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: complicated than the other examples on here, because most everyone 332 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: else we're going to talk about or have talked about, 333 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: has been more of a man saying Mary Sue. Jenny 334 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 1: Weasley also intersects with young girls hating the hetero woman 335 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: that ended up with a guy that they liked, that 336 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: they had a crush on. And so I wonder if 337 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: that's publicity And I would say this in this one 338 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 1: ideal that they built up Emma Watson to be the protagonist, 339 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: the woman, the leading woman in this leading character in 340 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,679 Speaker 1: this story who doesn't get together with Harry, but public 341 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: like publicly she came as like chic and stylish and 342 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: became like became a model and became an icon. But 343 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: they for the actress who played Jenny Weasley, we didn't 344 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: see her anything outside of the young girl, because there 345 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: was no real growth for her other than she's grown. 346 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: Like You're like, it's really hard to like not see 347 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: that because we didn't maybe in London, maybe in England 348 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: it was different, Like I know, I know there's a 349 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: lot of paparazzi and stuff, but they still seem to 350 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,360 Speaker 1: have a more of a private life. A lot of 351 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 1: especially in the UK, like a little more of a 352 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 1: private life for celebrities. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, 353 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: but seeing that she didn't really grow into that stardom, 354 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: maybe we were not able to see her grow up 355 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 1: outside of the movie before, which was four years earlier, 356 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: which was she was significantly younger, So it was hard 357 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: for a lot of people to understand this development, right. Yeah, 358 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: And I also think um. A friend of mine asked 359 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: me the other day because I was saying, like when 360 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: I was reading growing up reading fan fiction, people I 361 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: hated genuously, they hated her. Jinny bashing was like a 362 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: tag um and I I said, you know, I don't 363 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: think I think it's a largely because and I could 364 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: be wrong, but I think it's largely younger girls who 365 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: had a crush on Harry Potter or Daniel Radcliff or 366 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,360 Speaker 1: what have you and didn't like her. And there's more 367 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: I could expound on, but I'm not going to because 368 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: i'd be a separate podcast about um. Some people really 369 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: just don't like the Weasley family. But anyway, who doesn't 370 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: like the Weasley family? Oh gosh, Samantha, we're gonna have 371 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: to have a sidebar. It's kind of the whole like 372 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: Slytherin was wrong, done wrong that that exists in fiction. 373 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: But anyway, any way, so I was I was saying, yeah, 374 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: I think because they had a crush on Harry Potter, 375 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 1: weren't happy with any easily and she was. She asked 376 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: me if Leiah and Luke had ended up together, because 377 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: Leiah is pretty much loved throughout pland fiction, do you 378 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: think the same thing would have happened? And I had 379 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 1: to pause and I was like, I don't think so, 380 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: but I think they're very different properties. Also, because you're 381 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 1: Harry Potter. For a lot of people, you were aging 382 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: with it, where Star Wars was just a thing that 383 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: was sort of done. You saw it when you're a kid, 384 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: and it was stayed the same and you always knew 385 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: the thing. But I do think that's an interesting point 386 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: it was to think on, because I think that is 387 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: a part of this. Gosh, I have so many thoughts. 388 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: But Lily Potter is often given as an example of 389 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: Mary Sue as well, which again you don't really know 390 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: much about her. You don't see much of her, so 391 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: I find that interesting. Was very talented from the jump. Yep. 392 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: I'm very confused by these arguments. I know, I know, 393 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: and that brings us to naaru uh so in in 394 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: the movie Pray, her whole thing was training. It was 395 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: kind of like Arias Stark the whole movie that was 396 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: the fit. She was on her ride of passage and 397 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: she hadn't been trading. She continued to train. She was 398 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: very observant, she knew how to hunt. She watched him, 399 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: she figured out the best way to fight him. And 400 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: and again I did see this argument that it is 401 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: only to satisfy as JW's as the whole reason her 402 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: character exists, Like and so she's faulty automatically because she 403 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: was just done as a way to appease asws Ah 404 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 1: whof um so, which again, who was asking? I know, 405 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,239 Speaker 1: I know this is like a rhetorical thing, but I'm like, 406 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: why do you think? Don't get me wrong, we want 407 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: representation and for the long god, I think more people 408 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 1: were happy by the fact that was a Native Indigenous 409 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 1: woman playing a character that was fierce, like to see 410 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: that as well as people were so excited about the 411 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: fact that the commandity language was being used, uh to 412 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 1: help translate this movie, so you know, like dubbing it 413 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: in that way, and that this is the first time 414 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: in a long time that this would been able to 415 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 1: acknowledge a language as being used for a large motion picture, Like, 416 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: I don't understand that's the representation we want to see. 417 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 1: It's not about a girl fighting an alien. Do we 418 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: want them to be on top? Absolutely? Do you want 419 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: to be able to show that they were trained to 420 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: do things? Yes, of course. Um So I'm really confused 421 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 1: by this level of like it's just seemed to be uh, 422 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: a niche word for for people to get angry at 423 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,239 Speaker 1: and to move on and to be like this is 424 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: why and everybody, Yeah, absolutely, I agree with you, and 425 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: we're like, for those who wants are seeking representation, it's 426 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: not about what's like that they're in a that they've 427 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: become the hero. We love that, but the actual representation 428 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: of being in a positive light is what is the difference. 429 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,360 Speaker 1: And yes, we want gender for sure, but I love 430 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 1: that as a Native woman being represented and getting her accolades, 431 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: that people are loving her performance, getting so many like things, 432 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: her being shout out as you know the original women 433 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: icons like Sigourney Weaver and Lynda Hamilton's who were in 434 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: both UH Terminator and then also an Alien, knowing that 435 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: these were fears, women who figured out their environment and 436 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: save lives. Yes, And I yeah. When I was watching 437 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: it at your place with the surrounds sound, I remember 438 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: thinking like, she is so cool. She was just doing 439 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 1: all this stuff and I was so impressed. And I 440 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: do want to expand on your point, why is this happening? 441 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: What is going on? Um? And one of the big 442 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: things I think is for so long, so much entertainment 443 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: has been white men dominant. And I feel like their 444 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: argument here is stay in your lane. Like I've I'm 445 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: used to this. I feel like you are coming in 446 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: and you're asking for too much. And that's the only 447 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: reason companies are doing it is because you're complaining and 448 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 1: you're ruining whatever I love. It's like it feels to me. 449 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: It's like some people and especially white men, UM, just 450 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: cannot fathom a woman being the main character or being 451 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: the hero because they don't see it often and it 452 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,719 Speaker 1: just breaks their brain and they're like, oh God, this 453 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: isn't right. Something is wrong here. The only reason she 454 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 1: is here is as some like pity thing that a 455 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: company is doing to get points. Um, she has to 456 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: be the damsel in distress for the man to save. 457 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: She has to be the sexual object for men to 458 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: google at, Like why is what are they doing? I do? 459 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 1: I feel like that's I feel like that's a big 460 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: part of it. I feel like there's also this idea 461 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: that women can be badass, but only on the side 462 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: and sexually. Sexually, I think, so don't. Men can never 463 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: be weaker, they can never be wrong when compared to women. 464 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: That is not correct in the minds of these people 465 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: that are so angry. I've literally heard people call someone 466 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: a Mary Sue because she was funny, and women cannot 467 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 1: be funny, So she's a Mary Sue ever, right, And 468 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 1: so that brings us to the other thing I think 469 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: is going on, um, which I hope it's clear, but 470 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: this is I don't believe these things that it's the 471 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: arguments I'm hearing. Um, there's no way a woman could 472 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: be better than a man. And a lot of this 473 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 1: stuff that came out about Aria, that came out about 474 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: Nauru were biological slash physical arguments like she's too small, 475 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: she can't there's no way. Again, I would argue, we 476 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: don't do that with men ever, like, even if they 477 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: might be kind of the same stature, we never knew it. 478 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: There's plenty of movies about children that are male doing 479 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: similar things like we just don't see that. And also 480 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: this whole idea like we didn't see them training enough. 481 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: That comes up a lot too, as I said, and 482 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: I think it's pretty telling because, for one, women are 483 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: so rarely the main character. So yes, in the case 484 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: of Jenny Weasley, yeah, we don't see her training because 485 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: she's not the main character. Um. But even beyond that, 486 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: it feels very much like how we expect women to 487 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: be far more over qualified for success and we have 488 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: to prove prove that we are. And even when there 489 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: is proof, even when there's so much training, the whole 490 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: plot of Prey, the whole thing with Ari in Game 491 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: of Thrones, that is not enough. That is not enough, 492 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: And it again it's a we just don't hear that 493 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: critique against male characters. We assume James Bond is going 494 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: to be competent. We just assume we don't have to 495 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: see the training montage. Some movies might do it but 496 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: in general it's James Bond. We assume we don't have 497 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: that question for the gray Man, which you and I 498 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: have talked about before. This dude comes from gel to 499 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: Change for four five years and isn't a perfect assassin. 500 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: I'm like, is that how's that goes? Yes? I mean 501 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: there's certainly, as I said, some writing choices that maybe 502 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: don't work aren't the best. But some movies just aren't 503 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: about that part of it, you know, Like I don't know, so, 504 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: as I've been alluding to throughout this whole thing, I do. 505 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: I often get confused when I hear people use the 506 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: term Mary Sue in the mainstream, because it is so 507 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: far away from what I understand it and what I 508 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: have understood it to mean as someone who grew up 509 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: reading fan fiction, Like if you use that term and 510 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: you've never read fan fiction, like as a man, I 511 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: want to be like, I have some stories I want 512 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: you to read, and then I want to you just 513 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: tell me if you're going to use Mary Sue again, 514 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: because I have read some absolutely terrible, just terrible Mary 515 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: Sue story like you can't even I just can't even 516 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: put it into words. Sometimes, um, and I I don't. 517 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: I think that's totally natural, especially as a young writer. 518 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with it when 519 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: people use it in the mainstream. To me, what it 520 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: feels like is they're using it for just a woman 521 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: who is a hero or that every woman character. And yeah, 522 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: I haven't forbid there's any other intersection within that. But 523 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't a lot of times it doesn't make sense 524 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: to me. It does not. My brain is like, wait, 525 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: what are you talking about? Raise a merry Sue? Have 526 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: you read? I won't even say that name of the story. 527 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: I would be terrible, but there's a famous one. But 528 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: I will give an example of my own. I wrote 529 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: a Mary, so you're growing up. I'm pretty sure I've 530 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: talked about it. Where I could sing and I had 531 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: a beautiful voice, I could play the guitar like no 532 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: one could play the guitar. I was so emo and 533 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: so sad, but also so beautiful, and I saved Billy 534 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: Joe Armstrong's life. Yep. And I think I'm pretty sure 535 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: they were like, pretty, please be in the band Green 536 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: Day with us. You want the best, And that is 537 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: a Mary, in my opinion, that is a true Mary. 538 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: Sue it helps me work through some stuff. I would 539 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: never claim it was good writing, but it served its purpose. 540 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: And then in middle school I wrote a fan fiction 541 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: about a Jedi. It wasn't really a fan fiction was 542 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: original story. I guess it was both. It was kind 543 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: of a mix in. This Jedi was named Tera Polaris, 544 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: and she was the best Jedi ever. That's it. She 545 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: was the best. And I dressed up as her at 546 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: Halloween and I told everyone who asked me, are you 547 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: Obi one Kenobi? I was like, nope, I am Terra Polaris, 548 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: who is way better than Obi Wan. Yes. And on 549 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: top of that, like part of the fund of writing 550 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: fan fiction is that it doesn't necessarily have to be 551 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: from a critical standpoint good. But I also think it's 552 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: worth questioning who gets to decide what good is anyway? 553 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, it can be fan fiction could be something 554 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: that doesn't make any sense or is hasty or guess 555 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: to the point, everyone wants to without doing all the 556 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: work to do it. But it's free, and we're already 557 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: entering a sandbox where a lot of the work is done. 558 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: It's a hobby. Don't get me wrong. I have read 559 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: some fan fiction, even fan fiction with mary Sues, it's 560 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: better than a lot of the stuff I'm seeing, But 561 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be that. It doesn't have to 562 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: be that. And I also think like we have a 563 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: very long history that we've talked about a lot on 564 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: the show of making fun of teenage girls and things 565 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: that they like and using the term mary Sue, which 566 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: does come from fan fiction, which is largely written by 567 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 1: young girls, women and marginalized folks, using that term as 568 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: a dismissive insult for anything that's bad or unbelievable, um 569 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 1: for a character that couldn't possibly be that good. I 570 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: think that's pretty telling. You are dreaming. If you think 571 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: you could be the main character or the star, it's 572 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: just not possible. You're silly for thinking it. That seems 573 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 1: to be kind of intertwined through when people use that. 574 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: I think that is part of what is going on 575 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: and what they're thinking. And yeah, like I said, I 576 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: can defend a mary Sue. In my opinion, young girls 577 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: or even women writing mary sus that just makes sense 578 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: to me. It's nice to write a story where everyone 579 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,879 Speaker 1: loves you and you're good at everything, even if you're 580 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: a bit clumsy or there's some endearing trait that is 581 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: a flaw in heavy quotes. It's nice to think that 582 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 1: you're beautiful and desired and important. And to me, writing 583 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: something like that in the face of all of this 584 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: harmful and toxic messaging that we get about our bodies, 585 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: um and about what we can be UM, that just 586 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: makes sense to me. It just makes sense. It's one 587 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: way of coping with all of that and trying to 588 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 1: convince yourself that you are were the and lovable and 589 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: all of those things, even if it's a struggle for 590 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: you to believe it. And I do think there is 591 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: an aspect of needing validation from others involved in it, 592 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 1: but that also makes sense to me. Is that the 593 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: healthiest thing. Not necessarily, but I think it makes sense 594 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: and I hopefully you can like write it and sort 595 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: of grow from that. And Mary Sus can be great 596 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 1: fun characters. Um, even in even in this mainstream way, 597 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: if we could remove the sexism, like men don't have 598 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: to be like they can have quote bad movies and 599 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: they're fun and enjoyable, but women you want and done. 600 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: Um if you have one movie that doesn't do so 601 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: great at the box office, and even then too bad. 602 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: But yeah, I find it though, the sexist, dismissive way 603 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 1: it's used in the mainstream media pretty gross and harmful 604 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 1: and in my opinion, incorrect. I I think stories can 605 00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: have a Mary Sue and still be enjoyable and worthwhile. 606 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 1: I think we've been enjoying them with male characters for 607 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: a long time and have said nothing, have complained not 608 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: to ones about it, or even if we do, we're like, well, 609 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: that movie didn't have the best character development, but I 610 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: liked it as opposed to that's a mary Sue and 611 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 1: it's useless. Maybe maybe Mary Sue is just someone who 612 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: is good at what she does, whether in the fictional 613 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 1: or the real world. Maybe it's about time we do 614 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:30,279 Speaker 1: reclaim this um. And you know, sometimes it's just a 615 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,359 Speaker 1: story asking the audience to suspend our disbelief and have fun, 616 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: which again is something we've done a long time for 617 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 1: male characters but seem to want to refuse to do 618 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: for women. And that's my soapbox. UM. I have a 619 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: lot of thoughts about the marys too, um. But yeah, 620 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: I think there is a lot going on here, and 621 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 1: I I guess my overall like t L d R 622 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: is when people use it in the mainstream media. What 623 00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,319 Speaker 1: they mean is just a main character who is a 624 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: woman a lot of times, and that's it. Who has 625 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:07,399 Speaker 1: some abilities. End of story. So thank you for hearing 626 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: me out. I go watch it now. Yes, yes, yes, 627 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 1: it was fun. I promised not to annoy you about 628 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: how I can speak a little bit of French about 629 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: it last night, so I don't believe you loved it. Yes, well, 630 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,919 Speaker 1: thank you as well. Listeners as always, and we would 631 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: love to hear from you. You can email us that 632 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: Stuff and your mom Stuff at ihart me dot com. 633 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast 634 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:37,919 Speaker 1: or on Instagram at stuff I Never told you. Thanks 635 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: it's always to our super producer Christina one of the best, 636 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: one of the absolute best. And thanks to you for listening. 637 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: Steffener told me his production I Heart Radio. For more 638 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: podcast from my Heart Radio. You can listen to the 639 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: Heartradio app, Apple podcast, or you listen to your favorite shows.