1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: I really feel personally a sense of disillusionment with how 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: things work. But I also feel like we cannot give 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: up hope that things could be different, because it's in 4 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: that uncertainty around hope that motivates us into action and 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: to say that, you know, we are all capable of 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 1: making some changes, to actually do things differently, to change 7 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 1: the way things work. We're not limited to trying to 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: save this broken system that we have. We really could 9 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: be working towards something else. Welcome to How to Citizen 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: with Baritune Day, a podcast that reimagine citizen as a verb, 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: not a legal status. This season is all about how 12 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: we practice democracy, what can we get rid of, what 13 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: can we invent, and how do we change the culture 14 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,919 Speaker 1: of democracy itself. We're leaving the theoretical clouds and hit 15 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: in the ground with inspiring examples of people and institutions 16 00:00:53,880 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: that are showing us new ways to govern ourselves. In 17 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: the US, we have this constitutional right to petition the 18 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: government to seek redress for our grievances, and you know, 19 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: we have mad grievances, But what do we really get 20 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: to do with them? We can email, call, or fax 21 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: our representatives. We can attend a local meeting make a 22 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: ninety second statement. We can march through the streets, shout 23 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: outside people's homes, tag lawmakers, and scathing posts on social media. 24 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: We do these things hoping to affect the folks who 25 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: make and enforce policies, with the threat of throwing them 26 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 1: out of office if they don't. And then we try 27 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: it all over again and again and again. But what 28 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: if there was more than petitioning, protesting and voting yes 29 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: or no on a person. What if we could influence 30 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: the policy making process without becoming a billionaire first and 31 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: just buying the policymaking process. I've got great news. We can. 32 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: We can upgrade our democratic systems to include our voices 33 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: in ways that stretch our standard definition of civic participation 34 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: and of politics. I first met Claudia Kalisch in twenty 35 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: twenty two. A friend was advising her as she built 36 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: out this new organization called Democracy Next or dem next 37 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: for short. For years, Claudia has been studying, writing about, 38 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: and leading experiments at the forefront of democratic innovation, basically 39 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: giving us new ways to participate in self governance. Before 40 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: starting dem Next, she was at the Organization for Economic 41 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: Cooperation and Development OECD for short, where she literally worked 42 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: on the quote unquote future of democracy. During that time, 43 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: she tracked hundreds of examples of citizen assemblies, which bring 44 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: together a broadly representative bunch of people selected by lottery 45 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: to decide how we should live together. Now, in our 46 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: last episode, we heard from n. S U Fat, we're 47 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 1: CEO of the New Georgia Project, in say emphasize the 48 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: value of engaging community and conversation so they could better 49 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: use elections to exercise their power. Now well, in say 50 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: largely focused on driving people to vote for candidates who 51 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 1: decide our policies. Claudia is driving citizens toward each other 52 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: to help us decide those policies for ourselves. After the break, 53 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: Claudia Politz takes our participation pillar to the next level. Hello, Hi, 54 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: virtun day, really really lovely to see you and well 55 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: virtually this time. But it was good to see you 56 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: in Paris recently, Yes, it was. Are you in Paris 57 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: right now? I am? Indeed. How's how's it feel? Um? Dark? Hey? Good? Good? 58 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: Not good, but it just Paris also gets dark. That's 59 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: that's nice to be I'm just thinking of sunshine and rooftops. 60 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: So yeah, let's let's jump into the Since twenty eighteen, 61 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: you've been part of this growing movement of people trying 62 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: to take this theory out of academia and textbooks and 63 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: put it into the real world, a theory called deliberative democracy. 64 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: Can you define what deliberative democracy is? What does it 65 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: look like? Yeah, I think that's a good starting point 66 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: before we get into any examples or anything else as well, 67 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: because I think deliberation is one of those words that 68 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: we hear sometimes but we don't often take the time 69 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: to even define it. So deliberation actually, at its heart 70 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: is it's a form of communicating with others with a 71 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: spirit of having an open mind, of being willing to 72 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: give reasons for why we believe in something, but also 73 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: with the spirit of trying to find common ground. So 74 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: this theory of deliberative democracy is the premise of democracy 75 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: being about deliberation at its heart. And the work that 76 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 1: I've been doing has been about citizens assemblies and citizens 77 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 1: juries and other forms that deliberative democracy has been taking, 78 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: which give this a bit more struck. So when I 79 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: think about how we describe ourselves in terms of what 80 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: our democracy is, the phrase representative democracy comes to mind, 81 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:14,799 Speaker 1: and we think about bodies of representation national assemblies, congresses, senates, 82 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: which themselves are deliberative. In the US is the world's 83 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: greatest deliberative body. And everything you just describe sounds like 84 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 1: what we are supposedly already up to. Can you tease 85 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 1: out any difference between what we think of as representative 86 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: democracy versus what is being called deliberative democracy. So today 87 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 1: what we have come to be calling representative democracy has 88 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: been so kind of bound with the idea of elections. 89 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: And you know, I think if we go back, actually 90 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: and we take a step back from this, you know, 91 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: elections have never actually in the longer history of political philosophy, 92 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: been considered a form of democracy. Stop stops the elections. 93 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 1: That's like a big news flash to a lot of people. 94 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: Can you just say that one more time for the 95 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: people in the back and explain that little piece of it. Yeah, 96 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: I mean, if we go back to well, go back 97 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: to Aristotle, but political philosophers in between, until about one 98 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: hundred years ago, the notion of what constituting a body 99 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: by elections has been considered a form of constituting an oligarchy, 100 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: so meeting, and so I think it's a really important 101 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: point that we've sort of only very recently in history 102 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: come to associate elections with democracy. And even if we 103 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: take a step back to the point in history around 104 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: the time of the French and American Revolutions, which is, 105 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: I suppose the moment when this modern conception of the 106 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: institutions of representative democracy as we think of them today, 107 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: we're kind of initiated and then modeled and expanded to 108 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: other parts of the world. Since then, if you look 109 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: in the Declaration in the US, in the Constitution, if 110 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: you look in all sorts of other historical and archival documents, 111 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: that term was not used. Those instantians were actually set 112 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: up to be intentionally oligarchic, meaning concentrating power in the 113 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: hands of the few. And it's only much much later 114 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: when suffrage began expanding did the term representative government start 115 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: morphing into the term representative democracy. And today we often 116 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: just said democracy, that's it. But actually just because we're 117 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: using that term doesn't actually necessarily make it democratic. I mean, 118 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: I love this context. It reminds me back in season 119 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: two of this show. We started that season off with 120 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: Astra Taylor, who is a documentarian and historian and a 121 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: kind of debt rights activists for liberating people from their debts. 122 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: And she studied the history of the term democracy and 123 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: the practice as the Greeks helped develop it, and she 124 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: shocked us with a similar kind of revelation that elections 125 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: were aligarchical and that the Greeks actually conscripted people, you know, 126 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: random folks from society. And I joked that it was 127 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,559 Speaker 1: sort of jury duty. It was like citizen council duty 128 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: and water department duty, and you just got thrown into 129 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: the mix, which is one way of making sure you 130 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: have a different type of representation. Even the idea that 131 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: people who win elections are charismatic and extroverted and thus 132 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,679 Speaker 1: not truly representative of the people because it self selects 133 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: for a certain type of person. Does that align with 134 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: your understanding of the history as well, that this elections themselves, 135 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: as you said, have been aligarchic, That this goes back 136 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: as far as the Greeks and even the Romans. Yeah, exactly, 137 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: I mean this goes far far back. But I would 138 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: say that also this idea of democracy as deliberation is 139 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: something that also goes far back and is widespread also 140 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: in indigenous communities in many non Western cultures, because I 141 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: think we also have a tendency to talk a lot 142 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: about ancient Greece as though it is somehow the pinnacle 143 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: of democracy, and of course there's a lot of inspiration 144 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: to be found there too, but it's not the only place. Yeah, 145 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:56,839 Speaker 1: we're going to keep moving. I just want to let 146 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: listeners know we'll put a link to that Astra Taylor 147 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: episode in the show notes for this, so you can 148 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: kind of dive even deeper into her history of what 149 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: the Greeks did and didn't do, and what made them nervous, 150 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: a lot of things that still plague us to this day. Claudia, 151 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: citizens assemblies, you've used the word already. When did you 152 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 1: first learn about this idea of randomly grabbing people from 153 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: the public to serve in some participatory, deliberative fashion. Well, 154 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: you know, it's been about ten years that I've now 155 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: been doing work on deliberative democracy in some way or other, 156 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: and I first came across these ideas when reading the 157 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: work of David Van Rybrook in his book Against Elections, 158 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: and it was a bit of a revelation for me 159 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: because I was doing work at the time on populism, 160 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: and my research was focused on trying to understand the 161 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: extent to which people's disillusionment with politics, with the system, 162 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 1: this feeling of not having a voice or a genuine 163 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: say or ability to really shape the decisions affecting your life. 164 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: To what extent was this driving this wider trend of populism. 165 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: And from that work I became really convinced that this 166 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: was one part of it. It's not the only thing, 167 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: but if it's a core part of it, then it's 168 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: never going to be top down policies that actually gets 169 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: to a heart of people feeling like they have agency 170 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: and they can be citizens and the way you're using 171 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: the term here, and so this led me into exploring 172 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: this world of democratic innovation a bit more broadly, looking 173 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: at all sorts of different things like crowdsourcing policy and 174 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: more participatory ways of involving people. But it was when 175 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: I came across this idea of citizens assemblies that it 176 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,959 Speaker 1: was like an Aha moment of feeling like this could 177 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: get to the heart of some of those underlying drivers 178 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: of the problems we have in democracy today, and not 179 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: just things that are trying to treat the symptoms of 180 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: the problems that we're facing. You mentioned twenty ten and 181 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: coming across some of this work, you studied this, and 182 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: I want to understand. I know you have these big database, 183 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: you created many examples of all kinds of deliberatively democratic 184 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: activities across the world. Where were you when you did 185 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: this work and why did citizen assemblies of all forms 186 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: jump out to you? Yeah? So I was at the OECD, 187 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which is an 188 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: international organization of member countries. And while I was there, 189 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: I was I set up and then I was leading 190 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: the work around the future of Democracy, which actually was 191 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 1: called that at the time. Officially today that just sounds 192 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: like a high pressure situation. You're at the OECD leading 193 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: up work on the future of democracy. Did you feel 194 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: a lot of pressure, because I feel like literally the 195 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: world is counting on you. I probably did not think 196 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 1: about it in that way at the time. It was 197 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: more just like I was head down in the data collection. 198 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,839 Speaker 1: But I mean it is driven overall that work and 199 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: the work I'm doing today by a real sense of 200 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: urgency of needing to be looking at not just the 201 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: analysis of the problems that we have. Obviously that needs 202 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 1: to be the starting point, but I feel like where 203 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: we need to put more energy is into thinking about 204 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: what are the solution and what are the ways we 205 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: could be trying to really do things differently. And that's 206 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 1: why I feel like this world of citizens assemblies has 207 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 1: been so inspiring to me. Maybe, actually, before I continue, 208 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: we take a moment to define what is a citizens 209 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,599 Speaker 1: assembly actually because I want to give some examples and 210 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: talk more in depth than before being able to do that. 211 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: So by citizens assemblies, what I'm talking about is when 212 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: a government or a public authority convenes a broadly representative 213 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: group of people, usually it's somewhere between fifty to one 214 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty people and tasks them with a policy 215 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 1: problem to solve. So one real life example was how 216 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: do we reduce greenhouse gas emissions by forty by twenty 217 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: thirty in a spirit of social justice, So there's a 218 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: problem to be solved. A public body convenes a group 219 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: of broadly representative people through a process of a lottery, 220 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: but also ensuring that that group of people is broadly 221 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: representative of the wide republic. So the technical term for 222 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: that is stratification. It's what polling companies do when they 223 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: do polls to try and get a representative sample. So 224 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: there's a lottery with stratification to bring together a group 225 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: of people that anybody looking at them can say, there's 226 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: someone like me that's part of this. And then these 227 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: people have the time and the resources to be able 228 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: to grapple with the complexity of that issue. So the 229 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: issue that I just named nine months of deliberation to 230 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 1: be able to listen to experts, listen to stakeholders, get information, 231 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: to listen to one another, and then do that hard 232 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: work of finding common ground on a shared set of 233 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: policy proposals. Now those proposals can take the shape of 234 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: proposed legislation, proposed regulation, topics for a referendum, kind of 235 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: general public policies. And so this is what I'm talking 236 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: about when I talk about a citizens assembly, This sort 237 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: of process with a large group of people relatively large 238 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: but small enough to be broadly representative of a public, 239 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: who have the time and resources over a long period 240 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: of time to really grapple with an issue. Do these 241 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: people get paid just mentioned nine months? This is now 242 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: a job. How do you make sure people can afford 243 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: to participate in something like this? Yes, people get paid 244 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 1: most of the time, So I don't want to generalize 245 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: because actually the data and the OCD database shows in 246 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: detail if you want to look into it, that it's 247 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: not always the case. In some countries there's more of 248 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: especially at the local level, more of an attempt to 249 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: make this a civic and voluntary process. So there's a 250 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: bit of a debate in the field, but most of 251 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: the time people get paid. Childcare is provided if it's 252 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: in person, Transport costs are covered if it's online, there's 253 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: computers or technical support provided if needed. You know, it's 254 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: important to actually break down those barriers to participation, and 255 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: I think part of what has made citizens Assembly so 256 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: inspiring as well is that there has been this concerted 257 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: effort in the field to really create the conditions for 258 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: participation to be possible. Because sometimes we say that people 259 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: don't really want to participate, or why would they want 260 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: to give up nine months, But actually we have more 261 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: than enough evidence to show that people are willing to participate. 262 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: And it's also about creating the conditions for this to 263 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: be meaningful but also really possible in a very practical 264 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: sense as well. Willingness to participate meaningful and possibility all 265 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: of those things are interesting to me because the example 266 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: that most of us have access to is jury duty, 267 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: and what you've described as a citizen assembly sounds like 268 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: super jury duty. And when we feel certain types of 269 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: ways about jury duty, most of us try to avoid them. 270 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: It's complicated, we're rendering a yes no decision on something, 271 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: but we're very empowered. Right in terms of civic duty, 272 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: someone's life might literally be in our hands and it's randomized. 273 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: I don't know if that has all the stratification and 274 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: representation that you've described, but it's the closest we have 275 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: access to. How does citizen how does the citizen assembly 276 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: compare to jury duty in terms of our more common 277 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: reference point with everything you just described that's involved. So 278 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: I think jury duty is probably the best analogy of 279 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: what most people will be familiar with. On the premise 280 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: of it. It does differ a little bit because usually 281 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: it's a larger group of people, and also usually it 282 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: is facilitated. So injuries, the jury members just deliberate with 283 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: one another, whereas and citizens as some of these there's 284 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: independent and skilled facilitators that are there to try and 285 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: also create those conditions to you know, there's always going 286 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: to be people who are naturally more confident and inclined 287 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: to speak up in a public setting. You know, I'm 288 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: one of them. You're probably one of them too. I 289 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: don't know what you're talking about. What do you mean, 290 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: I just I'd be sitting out in the corner, just 291 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: taking notes, observing. I don't like to talk. So there, 292 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: So there's facilitators who very kindly ensure that those people 293 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: who naturally speak more more confidently than others are not 294 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: the only ones who speak, to bring in those who 295 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: are less inclined to also, you know, be there to 296 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: create the sort of trusted environment that is needed in 297 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: the room as well. This idea of populism, people feeling disenfranchised, 298 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: and just the high your degree of polarization. A lot 299 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: of that feels like it's driven by technology. The idea 300 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: that we live further apart ideologically from each other, information silos, 301 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 1: the whole thing that's been studied in its own right. 302 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: Does tech have a role in the opposite end in 303 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 1: sort of enhancing our ability to deliberate? I think about 304 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: Audrey Tang and v Taiwan and what the people of 305 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: Taiwan have done with tech to bring more citizens into 306 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: the flow. But then I'm also thinking about insurrections and 307 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: misinformation and so what is your analysis and what have 308 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: you seen in terms of text contribution to populism and 309 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: some of the drivers creating the need for more deliberation 310 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: which tech could also provide some solutions for. Yeah, well, 311 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: I think you're right that the tech is on both 312 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: sides of the problem, and it's also part of why 313 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: for me, technology is not the starting point in terms 314 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: of the first thing I think about when we're talking 315 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: about democracy and the booms with it, but also the 316 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: potential solutions. I feel like we first need to have 317 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: this lens of looking at actually what are our institutions 318 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: and what are the processes that we use to try 319 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: and decide who decides and how we're taking those decisions. 320 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 1: And then the question is where does technology come into that, 321 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: and how can it be supporting and creating that environment 322 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: that really enables people to I suppose hear that diversity 323 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: of perspectives, but also create the space to really listen 324 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: to one another, because I feel like that's also part 325 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: of what just looking through the lens angle we sometimes 326 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: miss if we jump straight into talking and thinking about 327 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 1: technology and where it fits in. I love that answer, 328 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 1: and I love people hearing this to really hear that 329 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: we don't start with the technology. You don't start with 330 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: the hammer. Right, you say what am I trying to build? 331 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: And you realize what tools you need to create that 332 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: world you're trying to live in. So thank you for 333 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: emphasizing that. Have you been a member of a Citizens 334 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 1: Assembly yourself? No? I wish, and I'm hoping that one day, Yeah, 335 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: practice actually expands. I I'll be lucky enough to be selected. 336 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: I do know people who've been who've been members, I 337 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: mean both actually on a personal level. Now when it's 338 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: getting to a point of some of my friends being 339 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: excited of like, oh my gosh, I've just received a letter, 340 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 1: but also having been in touch with it and interviewed 341 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: some of the people who've been part of different processes, Well, 342 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: I hope you get that call to in the city 343 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: that you're living in right now. The city of Paris 344 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: has a Citizens Assembly and you were involved in helping 345 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 1: make that happen. So how did you get involved in 346 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,239 Speaker 1: the co creation of this? Then let's talk about what 347 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: they actually do. M Yeah, so Paris has a permanent 348 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: Citizens Assembly as a December last year. Indeed, and why 349 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: I was involved actually is related to another story of 350 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 1: a smaller place which is a little bit well no 351 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: less well known, but nonetheless interesting when it comes to 352 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: looking actually at this bigger history of what's been going 353 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: on with citizens assemblies. But there's this region in Belgium 354 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 1: called as Belgian, which is the German speaking community there, 355 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: and they were the world's first place to establish a 356 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,679 Speaker 1: permanent citizens Assembly, which is effectively their second chamber of 357 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: people selected by lottery. And I was involved in the 358 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: group of experts that helped design that process there, which 359 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,959 Speaker 1: is related to why when the Vice mayor of Paris 360 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 1: responsible for participation was inspired by this, I was also 361 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: part of the group of people who was involved in 362 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: thinking about how could we adapt some of the elements 363 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: of this as Belgian model to a city like Paris. 364 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: So you mentioned that there's a vice mayor for participation 365 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: in Paris. See jealous again, I've never heard of such 366 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: a thing. That's amazing. Normally politicians they just want your participation, 367 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: to vote and then they're done with you. So this 368 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: is interesting that they're in inviting it. What were the 369 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: conditions in Paris or in France that had someone relatively 370 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: high levels of elective government asking for more citizen participation, 371 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: which I can imagine some elected officials seeing as eroding 372 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: their own power. M yeah, I mean some, I think 373 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: see it that way, and some see it as the 374 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: evolution of democracy and the need to be also expanding 375 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: people's power by creating meaningful ways for people to be 376 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: able to also be participating in a more ongoing way. 377 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 1: So Paris actually has had a quite quite deep participatory 378 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: culture for quite some time. So you mean when they 379 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: behead everybody every thirty years contemporary history maybe in the 380 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: past or two, where you know, it's one of the 381 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: first cities that had implemented participatory budgeting on a much 382 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: bigger scale. There are different local arrondissements, citizens councils, so 383 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: not with people by lottery, but you know, there's already 384 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: different forms of councils. There's a youth council, there's a 385 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,959 Speaker 1: Council of Europeans living in Paris, so there's different mechanisms 386 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: that exist for people to be able to be influencing 387 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: things in this city in an ongoing way already. Yeah, 388 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: thanks for the context. I get that you are working 389 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: on a project in Belgium that gave you a little 390 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: credibility to roll up into Paris's participatory culture. What does 391 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: it mean for someone to be a part of this assembly, 392 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: What power do they actually have and what are the responsibilities. 393 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: There's a few different aspects to this. Well I'll kind 394 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: of explain it in the simplest way possible, but basically, 395 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: the system with the permanent Paris Citizens Assembly works is 396 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: that there are a hundred people that form this Citizens 397 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: Assembly and they are people living in Paris, so not 398 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: necessarily French citizens, so I technically could have been chosen 399 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: as a Canadian living here. And they're broadly representative of 400 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: the diversity of parisions. And their mandate lasts for one year. 401 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 1: And there's a combination of them being able to have 402 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,239 Speaker 1: an agenda setting rule, so deciding what issues should be 403 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: on the table that they deliberate, but they also come 404 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: up with policy recommendations. And let's say, the legal mechanism 405 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: that established this assembly allows for them to be able 406 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: to either put forth what is called a wish to 407 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: the City Council, which is the same thing that the 408 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: city councilors are able to do as well. So this 409 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: means that they're able to suggest that they would really 410 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: like something to happen, and it necessitates a response and 411 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: a debate within that council. But more importantly, they're actually 412 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: able to draft local laws, which again is then required 413 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: to have a deliberation and a debate and a vote 414 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: by the elected city council members. On the back of this, 415 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: another mandate of this citizens assembly is that it decides 416 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: the theme of the next year's participatory budget, so it 417 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: has a big impact on the investment decisions of the 418 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: city in that more indirect way, and it also has 419 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: the ability to choose a topic for a more one 420 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 1: off citizens jury, which is a smaller group of people. 421 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: And again that citizens jury also is able to potentially 422 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: draft a local law to be deliberated by the city councilors. 423 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 1: So it's a little bit complex, but at the same 424 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: time that is also I think something we need to 425 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: keep in mind that democratic innovation is not necessarily simple 426 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: or easy, and it's not just about like, oh, why 427 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: don't we just replace the politicians that we have in 428 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: some of the existing chambers with people selected by lottery. 429 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 1: I think it also requires new ways of thinking about 430 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,719 Speaker 1: the kinds of rules that citizens can be playing in 431 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: the system like agenda setting, because that's also not something 432 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: we see very often today. So agenda setting, budget influence 433 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: at least on the part of the budget that is 434 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: open and participatory kind of defined by the people, and 435 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: nominating proposals, nominating laws that are required to have a 436 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: debate in the elected system, so to speak. So that 437 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 1: is getting closer and closer just fully excess sizing power. 438 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: Do you have any sense of what the experience is like, like, 439 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: what are people who are a part of this saying, 440 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: what does it mean to be a membrane? And are 441 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: they changed by this process? Mm? Well, I think sometimes 442 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: at the very beginning, there's a sense of almost disbelief, 443 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: like it is this even really happening? Because it's actually 444 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: quite new and different to be asked to play such 445 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,360 Speaker 1: a longer term and meaningful role in shaping decisions. It's 446 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: not the same as like, oh, come along to this 447 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 1: town hall meeting for an hour and tell us what 448 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 1: you think about something. It's like, will you engage for 449 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: a full year and take on all these different responsibilities? 450 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: And you know, I've been observing some of the sessions 451 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 1: of the Paris Assembly in particular, and it's just really 452 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: powerful to see because it's also people from sixteen years 453 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: and over, so you know, the sixteen year old next 454 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: to the eighty year old, and you just really see 455 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 1: actually the diversity of the city in the room in 456 00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: a way that you don't when you go to see 457 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: any elected chamber basically anywhere, and that in itself is 458 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: really moving. And then and it's almost in the more 459 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: informal moments of interaction during the coffee breaks, when you 460 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: see actually the relationship that have clearly formed between people 461 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 1: who never would have met otherwise, and you know, you 462 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: listen to them talking about the propositions they've come up 463 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: with and giving the rationale and the explanations for why 464 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 1: they came to this decision and why it was hard 465 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: and maybe the considerations they had, and again, it's it's 466 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 1: just quite a different form of democracy than we're used 467 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: to because we see a lot of debate where people 468 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 1: come into a chamber with their preprepared statement that they 469 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 1: read and it doesn't even force them to listen to 470 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 1: when anybody else says. And on the other hand, you 471 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: have a deliberation where people are all listening to the 472 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: same information and evidence and then they're listening to one another, 473 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: and then they're really trying to find okay, where can 474 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: we agree to really take this forward? This sounds like 475 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: a magical, fictional place in the US. I think you'd 476 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: call this meeting and like thirty percent of the folks 477 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 1: would show up with automatic weapons, and then you'd have 478 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 1: a QAnon contingent, you know, saying this assembly doesn't exist, 479 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: or it's all a plot to kidnap children. Like there'd 480 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: be conspiracy theorist Alex Jones's people would show up. It'd 481 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: be madness. And what you're describing has patience and listening 482 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 1: and a spirit of shared participation and respect. I think 483 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: that's the word that's kind of there's a respect for 484 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: everyone's participation in the system, which is not the experience 485 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: that most of us have observed or felt when we 486 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: think about politics as practice today. So what's different in 487 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 1: the water, or what's different in the process that allows 488 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: for all these beautiful things you just described to actually 489 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: be real. I just love the way you described it. 490 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: It's like all of that is exactly why this gives 491 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,199 Speaker 1: me hope and why it's so interested in studying this 492 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: for so long, you know, And it doesn't just magically 493 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: happen on its own. It's also about designing the conditions 494 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: for this to be possible, and so that's where it's 495 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 1: really important to actually that there's a fair and transparent 496 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: process to do the random selection, so that everybody actually 497 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: has an equal chance of being selected to be part 498 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 1: of this, and so that group of people really does 499 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: reflect the diversity of a community that is, you know, 500 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: whether it's Paris or elsewhere. And then creating enough time 501 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: for people to really be able to grapple with the 502 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: complexity of an issue. So if you give people an 503 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: issue like should we change the constitution on abortion, which 504 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: is what people in Ireland really deliberated about, you're obviously 505 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: not going to give them an hour or even just 506 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: one day. In Ireland, people deliberated for five months about 507 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: that before coming to recommendations, not just about whether or 508 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: not there should be a referendum to change the constitution, 509 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: which they said there should be, but also how should 510 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: the legislation change if people were to vote for change 511 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: in the referendum. Again, it's complex and so you need 512 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: to have the time and it needs to be fair 513 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: in terms of the diversity of information that people hear from. 514 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: So there was a mix of people on both sides 515 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: of the issue in terms of advocates foreign against people 516 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: telling personal stories, researchers sharing their research on this issue, 517 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: and then people actually having a lot of time also 518 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: to listen to one another, to give justification for why 519 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: they believe something or why not, and to come up 520 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: with their shared recommendations for the government. And again the 521 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: skilled facilitation matters. The fact that this is something that 522 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: will actually be taken seriously, I think is also part 523 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: of what gets those people who might not vote or 524 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: might not do other civic things into the room because 525 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: there's a sense that, oh, actually this is important and 526 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: it can have an impact. It's not just being done 527 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: for a research experiment. So there's all these different design 528 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: elements for this to be effective, but also for it 529 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: to be democratic democratic smald That's the point I slightly 530 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: kid but honestly about just the levels of polarization and 531 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: near to actual violence that we experience in our political system. 532 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: I'm thinking back to the yellow vest protest in France 533 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: and traffic is stop and people are so upset about 534 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: fuel tax associated with trying to fight climate change. Where 535 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: does that energy live in a citizen assembly context in France, 536 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: our yellow Vest people showing up and listening and people 537 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: listening to them. So the yellow Vest movement in France 538 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: led to what was called the Great Debate. There were 539 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: all sorts of different kind of town hall meetings and 540 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: different online forms of people bringing up ideas and so forth. 541 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: And one of the main things that kept coming up 542 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: and up actually was the proposition to have a citizens 543 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: Assembly to be able to take this energy, take these 544 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: different ideas, but also to create the conditions for it 545 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: to be a broadly representative group of people from France 546 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: society who would be able to grapple with this issue 547 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: for a longer period of time. And so that example 548 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: I gave earlier on about how do we reduced greenhouse 549 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: gas emissions by forty by twenty thirty in the spirit 550 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: of social justice was the actual question that French people 551 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: were tasked with coming up with propositions for in the 552 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: French Citizens Assembly on climate that really you could trace 553 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: the origins of why did this even take place back 554 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: to the energy that had emerged around the yellow Vest movement. Well, 555 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: that sounds promising. So we have examples in the city 556 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: of Paris, We've got examples in Belgium, we've got Ireland 557 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: and the constitutional amendment process around abortion, and then there's 558 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: another example in Brussels around climate that's issue specific. What 559 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: do you accomplish with a singular focus versus something more 560 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: broad and evolving and emerging as the Parisian example, And 561 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: what could the citizen assembly model generate that all the 562 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:59,239 Speaker 1: NGOs and activists and academic researchers and policymakers who are 563 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: clearly focused on climate issues, especially in Europe not get done. 564 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: You know, I've finished the story about France in a 565 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: way as though it makes it sound great and amazing, 566 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: and parts of it are in the sense that, you know, 567 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: there was a climate bill that then was passed that 568 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: had a lot of the recommendations from this citizens assembly 569 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: on climate, but actually a lot of the recommendations also 570 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: got watered down and ignored when they got put back 571 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: into the traditional political process. And seeing the evidence of 572 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: this happen over and over again, it is part of 573 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: my frustration of feeling like clearly this approach of just 574 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: adding on a one off citizens assembly to a system 575 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: that has a completely different set of incentives at heart. 576 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: With the short terms in the party politics, the campaign financing, 577 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: the lobbying and so on, it's not working to actually 578 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: change who's deciding and how those decisions are taken at 579 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: the end of the day. And so now we have 580 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: the example in Brussels where there is an institutional basis 581 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: created for a Citizens Assembly to be able to have 582 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: an ongoing say in all sorts of different climate related 583 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: policy issues all the time. And again the fact that 584 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: this is permanent also allowed us to think about how 585 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: do we ensure that there's an agenda setting role. So 586 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: it's also in the very first cycle, in instance, it's 587 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: going to be the ministers who said what is the 588 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: topic and what are the issues that they deliberate on. 589 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: But in the second cycle, it's going to be a 590 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: proportion of that first Citizens Assembly who are going to 591 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: be randomly selected to decide on what should be the 592 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: issue for the next one. And this is going to 593 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: be a feedback loop in a circular way. And then 594 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: also amongst the Citizens Assembly members, there's again going to 595 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: be a randomly selected smaller group of them of ten 596 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: who will be charged with also than monitoring and following 597 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: on the progress of what happens with their recommendations after 598 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: they've been passed off to government, because that's also a 599 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: downside of just having a one off assembly is that 600 00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: where's the real holding to accountability afterwards? So yeah, what's 601 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: interesting about the Brussels Permanent Climate Assembly is I think 602 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: they're thinking about how do we establish new institutions that 603 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: could actually create a basis for these citizens. Assemblys too 604 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,399 Speaker 1: have genuine power. Is really interesting and I think that's 605 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: where we need to be putting more energy into exploring this. 606 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 1: After the break, should elections even exist? Is it your 607 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: not so secret mission to just do away with elections 608 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 1: and elected politicians altogether? I think you can say that. 609 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: I think it's maybe a blunt way to describe it, 610 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: because I don't want this to come across the wrong way. 611 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of people who go into 612 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 1: politics do so because they want to change their communities 613 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: and they want to make the world a better place, 614 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 1: and I don't want this to just be some sort 615 00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: of politician bashing. I really feel like it's a systemic problem, 616 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: the short termism, the fact that party politics and campaign 617 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: financing and all these things come out on top in 618 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 1: terms of what are the incentives for the collective public 619 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: decisions we're taking these are features, not bugs of the 620 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: system that we have today, and so how do we 621 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 1: redesign the system and how do we shift power to 622 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: new institutions of citizen participation, representation by law, and deliberation. 623 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: This is really the mission that motivates and inspires me 624 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: to do the work that I'm doing, and also with 625 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 1: all the other people I'm working with, because I'm not 626 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 1: alone in all of this either. Well, I'm excited, and 627 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: I think if I'm hypothesizing that if you did public 628 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: opinion polling about how people feel about the electoral representative 629 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: political system and how they feel about the sortition based 630 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 1: in more lottery based citizen assembly political system, you'd have 631 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: very different opinions, which is legitimate, which is trusted. If 632 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: these things are working as designed, is that the direction 633 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 1: of the feedback so far? Do people who know about 634 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: this process, whether they're a part of it themselves or not, 635 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: have more faith in it. I think we need to 636 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: be humble about the research that exists because I think 637 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 1: of a part of the problem with research in this 638 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: field is that there's still relatively low levels of awareness 639 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: and understanding of citizens assemblies. Now that depends on the country, 640 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,760 Speaker 1: so in places like Ireland, for example, where citizens Assemblies 641 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: have been a kind of normal part of how politics 642 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: is done at the national level for a decade. Most 643 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: people today have heard about citizens assemblies, and people in 644 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: the latest polling say that they see citizens assemblies as 645 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: the place to really take decisions on the hardest issues 646 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: that politicians are stuck on. So there's a sense of 647 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: understanding of the fact that this works, and there's also 648 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: polling around the levels of trust in it. There was 649 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: some reason polling that was done in France, the UK, 650 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: Germany and Belgium or not Belgium, Italy, which found that 651 00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,839 Speaker 1: the majority of people, when you also explained a little 652 00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 1: bit what the Citizens Assembly is, trusted this and wanted 653 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: to see more of them happening, and also wanted their 654 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: recommendations to be binding, not just advisory. And I think 655 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,720 Speaker 1: that's where we see a real shift in opinion today 656 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: as well. I hope a lot for this, and I 657 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: know it's not a single solution to the myriad of problems, 658 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,399 Speaker 1: but it seems like a major contributor to a set 659 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: of solutions through a different process and mechanism. Who are you, Claudia, Like, 660 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: why do you care so much about this. I don't 661 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: know many people who obsess over the future of democracy 662 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: and commit their professional life's work to it. How were 663 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,839 Speaker 1: you raised? What was your diet that put this into 664 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: your mind where this is what you're doing. And you 665 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: mentioned being from Canada? Is it because you're Canadian? Like, 666 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: tell us about your biography a little bit that led 667 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,439 Speaker 1: you to care so much about it? Yeah, well, yeah, 668 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: it's a good question. Well, I'm a Canadian from a 669 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: Polish background, so hence my name, first person in my 670 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,359 Speaker 1: family who grew up in Canada. So I mean, I'm 671 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: sure that this no doubt shaped in some ways my 672 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: view of the world. My parents left Poland in the 673 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: early nineteen eighties when it's quite a different regime that 674 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 1: was in place there at the time. And part of 675 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:18,840 Speaker 1: my story is also the fact that I started my 676 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 1: studies in two thousand and eight. Literally one of the 677 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: first days of my studies, I was in London when 678 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: Lehman Brothers crushed. So this notion of and now for 679 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: an explainer to day. The historic stock market crash at 680 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight wiped out huge chunks of Americans 681 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 1: retirement savings, drove millions out of work, and led to 682 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 1: the collapse of some of the world's largest financial institutions. 683 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: Among them was Lehman Brothers, the New York based investment 684 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 1: bank founded in the eighteen forties, which was one of 685 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 1: the country's largest firms, with around twenty five thousand employees worldwide. 686 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,760 Speaker 1: Unlike many other banks and financial giants that governments deemed 687 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,880 Speaker 1: too big to fail, when Lehman Others when bankrupt in 688 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 1: September two thousand and eight, there was no bailout. At 689 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,759 Speaker 1: the time. It's shuttering was the largest bankruptcy in the 690 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 1: United States, and it's considered one of the tipping points 691 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: that led to the global financial crisis of two thousand 692 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: and eight. All right, now you learn something. Let's get 693 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: back to Claudia. I was in London when Lehman Brothers crushed. 694 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: So this notion of crisis, economic crisis, European sovereign debt crisis, 695 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: democratic crisis, this has been sort of a part of 696 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: the lens through which I've seen the rules for quite 697 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,759 Speaker 1: some time, and I think was part of actually what 698 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 1: got me interested in politics and then wanting to study politics. 699 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: And yeah, it certainly wasn't what I intended to study, because, 700 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: like I said, I was doing research on populism. There 701 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,439 Speaker 1: were only nine of us in my class at the time. 702 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,320 Speaker 1: When we did it. It was a very niche topic, 703 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 1: that adorable, and then I hadn't studied deliberative democracy during 704 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: my studies. These all ideas I've come across later, and 705 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,799 Speaker 1: I think part of it stems from the fact I'm 706 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: not just talking about other people when I'm referring to research, 707 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: or this sense of disillusionment with the system and how 708 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 1: things work, Like I'm one of those people. I really 709 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: feel personally a sense of disillusionment with how things work. 710 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: But I also feel like we cannot give up hope 711 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: that things could be different, because it's in that uncertainty 712 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: around hope that motivates us into action and to say that, 713 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: you know, we are all capable of making some changes, 714 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,399 Speaker 1: to actually do things differently, to change the way things work. 715 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,399 Speaker 1: You know. The danger zone is when we get into 716 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 1: a sense of hopelessness, of feeling like well and fatalism, 717 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 1: of thinking, well, this is just the way it is, 718 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: or it's so hard, or it feels impossible, and it's like, 719 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 1: of course it's not easy. But I think when we 720 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 1: see and hear about these really inspiring examples. That's what 721 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 1: shows us that actually we're not limited to trying to 722 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: save this broken system that we have. We really could 723 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: be working towards something else. Yes, Yes, build the new system, 724 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: attract us all to kind of migrate there. We had 725 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: a really relevant question from a listeners submitted ahead of 726 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: time from Florian Schwendeger. I hope I'm pronouncing that reasonably. 727 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 1: Who says, what's key to create buying an ownership with 728 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 1: the political decision makers themselves to support making these things 729 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,839 Speaker 1: permanent and increasing the amount of power that you might 730 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 1: distribute to the citizens, not merely through elections, but through 731 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,279 Speaker 1: things like citizen assemblies. How do you get them to 732 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 1: want to do this for real? M Yeah, And this 733 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 1: element of the almost the political strategy of how do 734 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 1: we get there is just as important to making this 735 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,320 Speaker 1: our reality. Well, my experience of working in this field 736 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,840 Speaker 1: for a long time, and I suppose particularly in the 737 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,279 Speaker 1: last few years when there has been growing interests in 738 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,359 Speaker 1: this idea of making these things permanent, stems from the 739 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: fact that I've encountered so many people who are within 740 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,320 Speaker 1: the system today, whether that's as elected officials or presidents 741 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 1: of parliament or senior civil servants who are just as 742 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 1: dissatisfied with how the system works from within, and who 743 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,320 Speaker 1: have been inspired by these different examples in different places 744 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,359 Speaker 1: and see that actually this could be another way of 745 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,759 Speaker 1: doing things, and the motivations are different. If we take 746 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 1: the Auspelgian example, for instance, in German speaking region of Belgium, 747 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 1: it was the president of the Parliament and the president 748 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: of the government from two different political parties who came 749 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,280 Speaker 1: together and said, well, we did this one citizens assembly 750 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 1: and it really helped us solve this issue around affordable childcare. 751 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: And we see the trends kind of more widely around populism, 752 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:45,719 Speaker 1: around people not trusting the system, around feeling disillusioned with 753 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,319 Speaker 1: how things work, and we really want to make a 754 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 1: change and establish a permanent way for these citizens assemblies 755 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,120 Speaker 1: to be part of how our democracy functions here in 756 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 1: as Belgian and so this was the motivation for them, 757 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:03,720 Speaker 1: and it was unanimously across party lines that people voted 758 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 1: in the aspility in parliament to establish this new permanent institution. 759 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: So I feel like there's a shared sense in many 760 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,879 Speaker 1: places of the fact that we have a suboptimal way 761 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: of taking collective decisions today and people are more or 762 00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: less inclined to really believe that or to be wanting 763 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 1: to in some ways give up some of their power 764 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,839 Speaker 1: to make the change happen. But I do believe there's 765 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,600 Speaker 1: enough of those initial changemakers out there to be those 766 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:35,040 Speaker 1: leaders showing us that another democracy and another politics is possible. 767 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:41,560 Speaker 1: How do you ensure that there's more deliberative democracy with 768 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,879 Speaker 1: things like but not limited to citizens assemblies actually distributes 769 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: increasingly real power to the people, and it's not just 770 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,359 Speaker 1: advisory and it's not just agenda setting. How do we 771 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,600 Speaker 1: make sure that happened? Well, this is the whole challenge 772 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,920 Speaker 1: of what we're trying to do now as next And 773 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 1: you know, I say this in the sense that we 774 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,840 Speaker 1: don't really have real examples today where there is genuine 775 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: power with these assemblies, like they're all to some extent advisory, 776 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,160 Speaker 1: and we have more or less like Indie institutionalized like 777 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 1: the permanent models. That's where we have the most mechanisms 778 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,879 Speaker 1: in place to ensure there's at least accountability. A follow up, 779 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,920 Speaker 1: I need to respond monitoring of what happens with those recommendations, 780 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,759 Speaker 1: But it's still not the same as citizens actually having 781 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,920 Speaker 1: the decision making power themselves, and so I think part 782 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,239 Speaker 1: of why we haven't seen that though, is that the 783 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 1: dominant narrative today is these citizens assemblies are just something 784 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,520 Speaker 1: that could or should complement our existing institutions, and it's 785 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:48,719 Speaker 1: something that might enhance or help strengthen representative democracy as 786 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,440 Speaker 1: we know it today. And I feel like that actually 787 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 1: has been detrimental to making the real fundamental change happen. 788 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 1: And that's why we're trying to shift the narrative and 789 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:01,120 Speaker 1: open up and imagination that actually another the democratic future 790 00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,880 Speaker 1: is possible, and that we could be shift in power 791 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: to citizens assemblies and this could eventually really be the 792 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 1: heart of a democratic system if we start to make 793 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: those steps taking us in that direction. And it means 794 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,759 Speaker 1: questioning the premiscy of elections, It means really bringing up 795 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,799 Speaker 1: our history of philosophy and thinking like, actually, elections are 796 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 1: not a democratic form of governing ourselves, and this is 797 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,480 Speaker 1: not the only way we could or should be doing things. 798 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,319 Speaker 1: And it seems radical, I think, to some people to 799 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,279 Speaker 1: say these things today, and I think it's only when 800 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: we start to question our own assumptions in this time 801 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 1: of deep crisis and open up an imagination that another 802 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 1: way could be possible that we're going to start seeing 803 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,239 Speaker 1: the real shifts of power. And I think that's what 804 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: excites me, is to get us out of this stuck 805 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: mentality that you know, we hear so often. Democracy is dying, 806 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:58,319 Speaker 1: Democracy is dead. It's this competition between a dying democracy 807 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:03,799 Speaker 1: and to say, at least questionable authoritarianism on the other hand, 808 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,560 Speaker 1: And like this is the false binary choice that we're 809 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,960 Speaker 1: presented with. We can do the like Jijianping model, or 810 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:14,480 Speaker 1: we can do the corrupt, lobbyist driven, capitalistic, extractive quote 811 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:18,280 Speaker 1: unquote democracy model. And so what you're highlighting and helping 812 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,800 Speaker 1: accelerate is just another thing is possible. Another democracy is possible. 813 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:28,719 Speaker 1: When I think about the outcomes from citizen assemblies, my 814 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:33,080 Speaker 1: question is what is the goal? Right? Is it consensus? Right? 815 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,840 Speaker 1: Everybody comes through this beautiful process and they all agree 816 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,840 Speaker 1: and then they submit it to the system for taking 817 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,200 Speaker 1: it seriously? Is it just another version of majority rule 818 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,040 Speaker 1: in smaller groups? And what does that facilitation look like 819 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,480 Speaker 1: in the process. So they're not entirely connected, but I 820 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:54,239 Speaker 1: think the biggest question is what's the actual outcome. It's 821 00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,120 Speaker 1: worth actually bringing out the fact that consensus does not 822 00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,720 Speaker 1: mean one hundred percent of people one hundred percent agree 823 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,319 Speaker 1: with everything, because that's not possible, and I would say 824 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,879 Speaker 1: it's also not desirable because in a democracy there's also 825 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,120 Speaker 1: a value of pluralism and acknowledging the fact that people 826 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:14,440 Speaker 1: actually have different values and different priorities and different ideas. 827 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,600 Speaker 1: And so it's why it's important to create enough space 828 00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:21,480 Speaker 1: and time for people to be able to acknowledge those differences, 829 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,960 Speaker 1: and that then in spite of those differences, do that 830 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,920 Speaker 1: really hard work that also takes time of saying, okay, 831 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,640 Speaker 1: where can we find common ground between us? And so 832 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,840 Speaker 1: usually within these citizens assemblies, it's around seventy five to 833 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,360 Speaker 1: eighty percent of people who get to a point of 834 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,000 Speaker 1: finding some agreement on a recommendation for it to be 835 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:44,200 Speaker 1: a recommendation of the group. Again, there's justification and an 836 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,680 Speaker 1: explanation of why did we come to this thinking, why 837 00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:51,040 Speaker 1: do we propose this altogether? And then usually actually the 838 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,960 Speaker 1: reports of the citizens assemblies have something called a minority 839 00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,600 Speaker 1: report at the end where those views that didn't reach 840 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,600 Speaker 1: a majority view, where consensus are still nonetheless knowledged, and 841 00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,680 Speaker 1: their reasoning is put forth. But it's also explained that 842 00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:05,880 Speaker 1: you know this only had ten percent of the support 843 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,080 Speaker 1: of the wider group of people here, So it's not 844 00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,040 Speaker 1: a recommendation of the collective, but we nonetheless acknowledge that 845 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:15,160 Speaker 1: these ideas were talked about and expressed by some And 846 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,600 Speaker 1: you know, is it a perfect system. Perhaps not. I 847 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,160 Speaker 1: don't think anything is. But I think it's a much 848 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,440 Speaker 1: greater improvement on the current way in which we're currently 849 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:29,080 Speaker 1: trying to take decisions through political party point scoring and 850 00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,080 Speaker 1: debates and trying to win, rather than trying to find 851 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:37,440 Speaker 1: where do we find enough common ground between us? The 852 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,160 Speaker 1: word that you use that lands most strongly with me 853 00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,319 Speaker 1: is acknowledge and that this is a process where people 854 00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,839 Speaker 1: can feel acknowledged. And if you have participated and been 855 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,800 Speaker 1: heard and interacted and engaged, you may not get everything 856 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,759 Speaker 1: you want, in fact, most of us never do, but 857 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:58,759 Speaker 1: if the process acknowledges you, then we should all feel 858 00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,600 Speaker 1: more invested in that process. We use the word citizen 859 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,719 Speaker 1: on this show How to Citizen. We interpret it as 860 00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:06,960 Speaker 1: a verb. We have a whole series of principles we 861 00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,640 Speaker 1: think define that. Given your work and your heavy use 862 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,880 Speaker 1: of the word as well, how do you define citizen 863 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,480 Speaker 1: if you interpret it as a verb, what does that mean. 864 00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:19,880 Speaker 1: I think it's one of those words we need to 865 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,319 Speaker 1: reclaim in the same way I think we need to 866 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,880 Speaker 1: reclaim democracy from elections, because I think there's a debate 867 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,040 Speaker 1: going on almost of like should we use citizen in 868 00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:31,600 Speaker 1: this context? Should we talk just about people's assembles, you know? 869 00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:33,840 Speaker 1: And I think it's actually important that we use this 870 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:37,239 Speaker 1: word citizen in that civic sense of the term, which 871 00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,520 Speaker 1: is much more universal than just referring in any way 872 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:43,800 Speaker 1: to what passport somebody holds. That's again something that quite 873 00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,719 Speaker 1: recently in history, we've reduced the notion of what that 874 00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,680 Speaker 1: concept of citizen means to that, whereas actually citizen has 875 00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:55,080 Speaker 1: this much broader meaning. And I really share the version 876 00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,400 Speaker 1: of how you talk about it as a verb as well, 877 00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,880 Speaker 1: because it does mean to participate, and it means to 878 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:05,400 Speaker 1: be really living with and understanding with what power means. 879 00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,239 Speaker 1: And also in a collective way. It's not something you 880 00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,520 Speaker 1: do on your own to be a citizen. It's something 881 00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,640 Speaker 1: you do with others that you're sharing a community with. 882 00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,440 Speaker 1: And I think all those aspects really get captured in 883 00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,359 Speaker 1: this word citizen, and we need to keep using it 884 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:23,359 Speaker 1: because it's an important word that we shouldn't give up 885 00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:25,600 Speaker 1: to the people who want to narrow it down to 886 00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:29,359 Speaker 1: a very, very narrow meaning. Thank you. We've arrived at 887 00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,000 Speaker 1: the end of the just me part of this, and 888 00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to shift into the audience Q and A. Okay, Robert, 889 00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,160 Speaker 1: you are here. It looks like you're off mute, so 890 00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,600 Speaker 1: go ahead and ask your question. My name is Robert Reats, 891 00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,360 Speaker 1: and I work with a group called Modern Populace, and 892 00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:46,800 Speaker 1: we're thinking about some of these things about deliberative democracy. 893 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:52,360 Speaker 1: My question was representative selection by sortition seems great, but 894 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:56,239 Speaker 1: deliberation can be top down or can be more bottom up, 895 00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,640 Speaker 1: and sometimes i top down limits engagement and bottom up 896 00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,400 Speaker 1: can be more disruptive. So my question is who really 897 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,360 Speaker 1: owns the process of citizen assemblies? And by on the process, 898 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,440 Speaker 1: I mean you said there was oftentimes open, but is 899 00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,640 Speaker 1: that really accepted or you know, satisfied to the populace 900 00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:17,080 Speaker 1: as a whole. Thank you, Robert. It's a good question. 901 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,160 Speaker 1: I think it raises a bit of attention that there 902 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,879 Speaker 1: has been in this field as well about the way 903 00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,239 Speaker 1: to really make change happen. And I think you need 904 00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:28,120 Speaker 1: both bottom up and top down initiatives because we see 905 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,280 Speaker 1: that they end up also having different dynamics and different impacts. 906 00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:34,600 Speaker 1: So actually, if we go back to twenty eleven, one 907 00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,239 Speaker 1: of the biggest bottom up citizens assemblies that was organized 908 00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,279 Speaker 1: was in Belgium and it was called the G one 909 00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,560 Speaker 1: thousand and David van Rybreck, who wrote against Elections, who 910 00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:45,879 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, it was part of this, along with 911 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,719 Speaker 1: a group of other activists, and it was during the 912 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:51,240 Speaker 1: period when there was no government for over five hundred 913 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,480 Speaker 1: days in Belgium, and so citizens took it into their 914 00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:57,360 Speaker 1: own hands to organize a bottom up citizens assembly with 915 00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:59,960 Speaker 1: a thousand people who at the time they just convene 916 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,680 Speaker 1: for one day and they brought them together to write 917 00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,680 Speaker 1: apple sorts of different propositions for what should we actually 918 00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,600 Speaker 1: be doing in this period with no government. Now a 919 00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:12,120 Speaker 1: government actually ended up forming shortly afterwards. They didn't do 920 00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,560 Speaker 1: much of anything of what came out of this, but 921 00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:17,400 Speaker 1: it wasn't a failure because I think it's what prompted 922 00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:21,040 Speaker 1: the seeds of this becoming such a prominent form of 923 00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:24,560 Speaker 1: democracy within Belgium. There's initiatives happening at all different levels. 924 00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,320 Speaker 1: I've only mentioned a few of the examples here today, 925 00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:29,960 Speaker 1: and so I think it's important to have the bottom 926 00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 1: up kinds of things happening, But we also see that 927 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:34,920 Speaker 1: with the kinds of citizens at some of these that 928 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:38,440 Speaker 1: have been organized by activists or by civil society who 929 00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,239 Speaker 1: or by academia, there is an effect on who ends 930 00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,160 Speaker 1: up participating in something. When it's not linked in any 931 00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,839 Speaker 1: way to power or authority, you have a bit much 932 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,120 Speaker 1: bigger bias of who's willing to give up their time 933 00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:52,280 Speaker 1: to talk about something for a period of time. People 934 00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,239 Speaker 1: are more likely to drop out, which has also a 935 00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:59,360 Speaker 1: dynamic on the deliberation, and so when it is initiated 936 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,440 Speaker 1: by authority, there is nonetheless a much greater chance of 937 00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,480 Speaker 1: a much more representative group of people who are willing 938 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:08,840 Speaker 1: to take the time to do this, but also for 939 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,279 Speaker 1: there to be real impact. So even though I was 940 00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:13,719 Speaker 1: saying that part of why I'm doing what I'm doing 941 00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:17,160 Speaker 1: today is driven by a disillusionment of seeing recommendations water 942 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,760 Speaker 1: down or ignored, we nonetheless have quite a few examples 943 00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,919 Speaker 1: where at least the majority of the propositions do make 944 00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:28,120 Speaker 1: their way into policy or into legislation or regulation, and 945 00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:32,360 Speaker 1: citizens have been having a really important impact on shaping thinks, 946 00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,319 Speaker 1: like five billion dollars ten year investment plans in the 947 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:40,120 Speaker 1: City of Melbourne. Canada's national regulation around tech companies is 948 00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,040 Speaker 1: now being shaped largely by a national Citizens Assembly. So 949 00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,239 Speaker 1: we do have enough evidence to show that actually it 950 00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:50,319 Speaker 1: is important to have that top down initiative to link 951 00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:52,879 Speaker 1: it to authority. But again I go back to why 952 00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,399 Speaker 1: it's really interesting to be thinking about how to make 953 00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,600 Speaker 1: this permanent, because we also need to be giving citizens 954 00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,840 Speaker 1: the way of shaping the agenda, because today it's so 955 00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,759 Speaker 1: much shape top down by who decides and how they 956 00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,080 Speaker 1: frame a question or an issue or what might even 957 00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,479 Speaker 1: be allowed to be on the table, and that needs 958 00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,279 Speaker 1: to change as well. I mean, yet the answer it 959 00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:13,960 Speaker 1: sounds like an all of the above answer, but its 960 00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:17,080 Speaker 1: sequencing matters, and so you kind of start from the outside, 961 00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:19,799 Speaker 1: work your way in, maybe start top down, shift more 962 00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:24,160 Speaker 1: bottom up to build trust, experience best practices. Our next 963 00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:28,279 Speaker 1: question comes from Sarah hughes Hi. Sarah hughes she they 964 00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:32,200 Speaker 1: pronouns from the unseated territory of the Hoodana Shawnee people. 965 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,440 Speaker 1: A lot of the circles I'm kind of engaging in 966 00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:42,680 Speaker 1: now are imagining stateless society and what skills we need 967 00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:49,520 Speaker 1: as citizens to operate with real sovereignty on a community basis, 968 00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:54,000 Speaker 1: and going back to, like the you mentioned earlier, indigenous culture, 969 00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,480 Speaker 1: and I'm glad you did, because indigenous ways of knowing 970 00:54:57,080 --> 00:55:00,160 Speaker 1: pre state societies are informing a lot of what it's 971 00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:04,359 Speaker 1: happening now in the more radical community of formation work. 972 00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:08,319 Speaker 1: So I'm just curious what your thoughts are about kind 973 00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:11,640 Speaker 1: of what's happening on the edges this in terms of 974 00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:15,320 Speaker 1: questioning state power in general. Thank you, Sarah for putting 975 00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:20,120 Speaker 1: probably the most difficult question to me, and because my 976 00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,280 Speaker 1: honest answer to that is I don't know. I think 977 00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:27,840 Speaker 1: when we start to question certain aspects of the system 978 00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:31,239 Speaker 1: as we have today and we begin to unpick them, 979 00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:36,359 Speaker 1: we realize actually how interrelated all these different other accepted 980 00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:40,440 Speaker 1: norms and concepts that we have today are. And so 981 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,680 Speaker 1: one of them is around the state. Another one is 982 00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:46,560 Speaker 1: around citizenship actually, because in these citizens assemblies it's often 983 00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:49,520 Speaker 1: not people who are citizens in that narrow sense of 984 00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,200 Speaker 1: the term, but anybody who's living in a place who 985 00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:54,560 Speaker 1: can be part of them. So what does that mean 986 00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:58,280 Speaker 1: for citizenship if these actually have power and it's anybody 987 00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:01,600 Speaker 1: who's living in a place without necessarily a passport from 988 00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:05,719 Speaker 1: that country that can participate. The notion actually of what 989 00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,960 Speaker 1: level of government is the most appropriate Once we start 990 00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:12,440 Speaker 1: to untake the system, it also puts into question, actually, 991 00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:15,520 Speaker 1: like in what way is this the best way to 992 00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:20,240 Speaker 1: organize ourselves? Like these notions of local, regional, national government 993 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:22,239 Speaker 1: and the way we often have them broken down in 994 00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,719 Speaker 1: many countries are not necessarily the best ways that we 995 00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:30,400 Speaker 1: divide ourselves as communities. And so all I'm saying is 996 00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:32,560 Speaker 1: that I don't know the answer to the question, but 997 00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:34,520 Speaker 1: I think that's something that we really need to be 998 00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:39,359 Speaker 1: also thinking about. And by opening up the imagination and 999 00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:42,360 Speaker 1: questioning the system that we have today, I think it 1000 00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:46,759 Speaker 1: allows us the room to be exploring these interrelated and 1001 00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:50,480 Speaker 1: really important questions as well. I love it. I will 1002 00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:54,200 Speaker 1: ask this question on behalf of Liza, which relates to 1003 00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,759 Speaker 1: who participates and what their experience might be if they 1004 00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:00,400 Speaker 1: don't have those official government papers or culturally seen as 1005 00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:04,240 Speaker 1: not citizens. Is there evidence for how threatened minority groups 1006 00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:08,280 Speaker 1: participating in a citizens assembly, for example, in Paris, Muslim 1007 00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:10,760 Speaker 1: women and girls with you jobs, how have they fared 1008 00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:14,600 Speaker 1: in the process. I don't know enough about Paris in 1009 00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,600 Speaker 1: terms of the specific examples to answer it from that lens, 1010 00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:19,640 Speaker 1: but in terms of the broader lens and perhaps with 1011 00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:25,120 Speaker 1: the example of them mixed deliberative committees that exist in Brussels. 1012 00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:28,000 Speaker 1: So Brussels is one of the most diversities in the world, 1013 00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,360 Speaker 1: actually one hundred and eighty different nationalities, one hundred different 1014 00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:35,200 Speaker 1: languages spoken, and so to make it again as inclusive 1015 00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:37,640 Speaker 1: as possible, and perhaps there's even more that can be done. 1016 00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:40,400 Speaker 1: You know, the official invitation letters go out in the 1017 00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:44,680 Speaker 1: seven most commonly spoken languages in Brussels. Plus when you 1018 00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:48,360 Speaker 1: go online you can also access the invitation in other languages. 1019 00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:53,160 Speaker 1: People who are not necessarily fluent in the main language 1020 00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:55,720 Speaker 1: of the deliberation. So in Brussels this is often in 1021 00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,840 Speaker 1: Dutch or French or English. People can come with a 1022 00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:03,240 Speaker 1: buddy who helps to interpret for them so that they 1023 00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:06,720 Speaker 1: can still nonetheless participate, and that buddy also receives the 1024 00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:10,360 Speaker 1: same payment or honorarium for their time, the same conditions 1025 00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,120 Speaker 1: to be able to participate, so that that person doesn't 1026 00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:17,080 Speaker 1: end up being limited by that. Again, there's different aspects 1027 00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:20,640 Speaker 1: around having trained, skilled facilitators who are there in the 1028 00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:23,840 Speaker 1: room to create those conditions for people to really truly 1029 00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:27,600 Speaker 1: feel welcome. As part of this, there's the public communication 1030 00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:30,720 Speaker 1: that has been done that really helps convey that this 1031 00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:33,760 Speaker 1: is really welcome to anyone who's living in Brussels. So 1032 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:36,840 Speaker 1: there's all these different elements that come together that I 1033 00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:40,440 Speaker 1: think help as much as possible bring those people in 1034 00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:43,880 Speaker 1: who today I think feel excluded by the current system, 1035 00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:46,880 Speaker 1: who might find it hard to participate for one reason 1036 00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,280 Speaker 1: or another. And I think we need to stop thinking 1037 00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:52,640 Speaker 1: it's because these people don't want to participate, and we 1038 00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:54,840 Speaker 1: need to find the different ways of how do we 1039 00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:58,240 Speaker 1: really create the conditions to make this as inclusive as possible. 1040 00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:01,360 Speaker 1: Thank you for We're going to try to squeeze one 1041 00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:05,640 Speaker 1: more in. It's Nick Coacoma. I believe I called you Nick, 1042 00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:09,520 Speaker 1: You're from Boston. Then my question is, given that liberal 1043 00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:13,760 Speaker 1: modern republic electoral republics came about only through the police 1044 00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,120 Speaker 1: in the case of the US and France, through violent revolution, 1045 00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:22,160 Speaker 1: and we're talking about complete regime change really through sortition, 1046 00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:28,120 Speaker 1: how can we move from the current constitutional model towards 1047 00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:31,920 Speaker 1: a democracy by lottery system and can you envision this 1048 00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:36,600 Speaker 1: working in both not only legislative but also the executive 1049 00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:40,600 Speaker 1: and judicial branches as well. Small question, thanks Nick, Do 1050 00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:43,040 Speaker 1: we have to have a bloody revolution to get this 1051 00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:47,160 Speaker 1: going and kind of go beyond the legislative branch? Thanks Nick? Yeah, indeed, 1052 00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:49,840 Speaker 1: an easy question to end with questible To be clear, 1053 00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:53,080 Speaker 1: I am not calling for a bloody revolution, So this 1054 00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:55,040 Speaker 1: is not a call for people to pick up their 1055 00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:59,080 Speaker 1: pitchforks literally, but it is a call for people to 1056 00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:04,120 Speaker 1: take action. And I think that we can see regime change, 1057 01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:06,080 Speaker 1: if we want to call it, that happen also in 1058 01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:08,080 Speaker 1: a much more peaceful way. And you know, if we 1059 01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:10,080 Speaker 1: look at the countries around the world that have both 1060 01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:14,840 Speaker 1: their monarchies and their parliaments with people selected by election 1061 01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:18,120 Speaker 1: in place, we have examples which show us that it's 1062 01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:21,400 Speaker 1: possible to still be in transition from different types of 1063 01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:27,120 Speaker 1: governance in many places as well. And I think, you know, realistically, 1064 01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:31,040 Speaker 1: there is going to be a combination of elections based 1065 01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:35,560 Speaker 1: and sortition based forms of democracy that coexist. And for me, 1066 01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:37,800 Speaker 1: the aim is to see over time having more and 1067 01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:42,560 Speaker 1: more genuine power really shifted to the sortition based deliberative bodies. 1068 01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:45,400 Speaker 1: And I think we can see that happening in different ways, 1069 01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,440 Speaker 1: and I think it's part of why we need this 1070 01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:50,640 Speaker 1: happening in different spheres. You know, if anyone watched them 1071 01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:54,120 Speaker 1: launch event for Democracy next, I had opened it with 1072 01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:57,440 Speaker 1: a kind of imagination exercise. I imagine that we're in 1073 01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:00,800 Speaker 1: twenty thirty two, And part of that was actually getting 1074 01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:03,920 Speaker 1: people to imagine that this morning you received an invitation 1075 01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:07,640 Speaker 1: to be part of your country's Executive Assembly, and last 1076 01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:10,920 Speaker 1: year your best friend sat on the Judicial Selection Commission, 1077 01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:13,320 Speaker 1: which was set up to take the partisanship out of 1078 01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:16,919 Speaker 1: selecting judges. And it went on and on. But also 1079 01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:19,080 Speaker 1: to illustrate that, I think, actually we need to think 1080 01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:21,680 Speaker 1: beyond just the legislative branch, and we also need to 1081 01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:25,680 Speaker 1: think beyond let's say, the traditional institutions of government. I 1082 01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:28,360 Speaker 1: think we need to also think about trade unions and 1083 01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:32,200 Speaker 1: public banks and central banks and the other institutions that 1084 01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:34,800 Speaker 1: have an impact on our public lives, and how could 1085 01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:38,680 Speaker 1: we democratize the governance of those as well. So it's 1086 01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:40,919 Speaker 1: not going to happen overnight. I don't think we need 1087 01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:44,480 Speaker 1: to have violence to get there. We already see things 1088 01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:47,960 Speaker 1: like the Brussels Permanent Citizens Climate Assembly and the Permanent 1089 01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:51,000 Speaker 1: Paris Citizens Assembly. These to me are the first stepping 1090 01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:53,360 Speaker 1: stones that we can be building on to get to 1091 01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:57,400 Speaker 1: another democratic future. Claudie, you've been great. Thank you for 1092 01:01:57,440 --> 01:01:59,920 Speaker 1: expanding our imagination. Thank you for giving us a vision 1093 01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:03,160 Speaker 1: of something to fight for and not just against. And 1094 01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:05,360 Speaker 1: that's the spirit of what we're trying to offer up 1095 01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:08,600 Speaker 1: here at how the citizen. You've been citizen in great 1096 01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:12,000 Speaker 1: and I look forward to drafting you into some kind 1097 01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:13,760 Speaker 1: of assembly Zoon because I want you to get high 1098 01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:16,840 Speaker 1: on your own supply. As we say in him up wonderful. 1099 01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:19,000 Speaker 1: Thank you bye Tounday, and thank you to everyone for 1100 01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:22,240 Speaker 1: all the wonderful questions. I hook forward to continuing the conversations. 1101 01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:29,320 Speaker 1: So do we, So do we. Thanks Claudia. This conversation 1102 01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:32,880 Speaker 1: got me thinking about trust, and I need to give 1103 01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:37,600 Speaker 1: people something worth trusting, something we can believe in. I'm 1104 01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:40,360 Speaker 1: thinking back to my conversation with Adrian Marie Brown in 1105 01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:43,360 Speaker 1: our first episode this season and her flip of this 1106 01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:47,400 Speaker 1: ancient eaching text where she interprets it to say, if 1107 01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:51,080 Speaker 1: we trust the people, they become trustworthy. Now y'all know 1108 01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:53,760 Speaker 1: we're currently in this downward spiral where the people don't 1109 01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:56,480 Speaker 1: trust their politicians and the politicians don't trust the people. 1110 01:02:57,200 --> 01:02:59,320 Speaker 1: The key to chipping away at that distrust of each 1111 01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:03,200 Speaker 1: other and of our systems is information and facilitation and 1112 01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:06,080 Speaker 1: true inclusion, so we can involve as many people as 1113 01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:10,480 Speaker 1: possible in the act of self governing. Through these citizen assemblies, 1114 01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:14,280 Speaker 1: Claudia is showing us that in a deliberative democracy, we 1115 01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:18,000 Speaker 1: get to practice coexisting with our differences around some pretty 1116 01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:22,400 Speaker 1: consequential policy discussions in a way that leaves people feeling 1117 01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:27,160 Speaker 1: more seen, acknowledged, and invested in the system, even if 1118 01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:29,360 Speaker 1: we don't all get the outcome we want every time. 1119 01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:32,240 Speaker 1: I don't foresee a world where a majority of my 1120 01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:35,600 Speaker 1: neighbors are sitting on a citizens Assembly at any given time, 1121 01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:40,040 Speaker 1: but overtime a significant number of us should have that 1122 01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:50,760 Speaker 1: experience of service and participation as usual. We have some 1123 01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:53,640 Speaker 1: actions you can take after listening to this episode. They 1124 01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:57,720 Speaker 1: fall into three categories, personal reflection, getting more informed, and 1125 01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:02,680 Speaker 1: publicly participating. Election prompt is inspired by the Democracy Next 1126 01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:06,440 Speaker 1: Launch event. Imagine it's ten years in the future and 1127 01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:10,760 Speaker 1: we've established some new civic rituals. Where once we anticipated 1128 01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:14,240 Speaker 1: and fretted over election day, now we look forward to 1129 01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:18,880 Speaker 1: sortition day, the day that public participants selected by lottery 1130 01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:23,400 Speaker 1: are assigned to various citizen assemblies. These bodies are comprised 1131 01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:27,680 Speaker 1: of rich and poor, old and young, documented and undocumented, 1132 01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:31,840 Speaker 1: and they decide on all manner of topics, judicial appointments, 1133 01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:36,600 Speaker 1: algorithmic oversight, local energy policy, and more. Imagine what it 1134 01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:39,760 Speaker 1: feels like to serve in one of these well facilitated 1135 01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:43,560 Speaker 1: and compensated assemblies with your neighbors. Imagine what it would 1136 01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:46,560 Speaker 1: be like to read media coverage of the deliberations that 1137 01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:50,040 Speaker 1: focus on a community's attempt at finding common ground rather 1138 01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:53,640 Speaker 1: than who made the most outlandish statements on social media? 1139 01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:57,080 Speaker 1: What headlines do you see now? In terms of getting 1140 01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:00,920 Speaker 1: more informed, Here's where you can learn more about assemblies. 1141 01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:05,000 Speaker 1: Read the New Yorker essay by Yale University political science 1142 01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:10,040 Speaker 1: professor Helene Landmore. It's called politics without Politicians, which is 1143 01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:12,520 Speaker 1: just a great headline. Got to give it to them. 1144 01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:17,040 Speaker 1: For a deeper dive, read Landmore's book Open Democracy. To 1145 01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:20,840 Speaker 1: see citizen assemblies in action, check out the Permanent Citizens 1146 01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:24,720 Speaker 1: Assembly in Paris or the Irish Citizens Assembly. That one 1147 01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:28,200 Speaker 1: features a special guest appearance from Jane Goodall. You can 1148 01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:31,800 Speaker 1: find links to both in the episode show Notes. Finally, 1149 01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:35,200 Speaker 1: to participate publicly. We encourage you to subscribe to the 1150 01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:38,800 Speaker 1: Democracy Next newsletter. They'll be launching a global community of 1151 01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:41,800 Speaker 1: enthusiasts wanting to learn more and help build this next 1152 01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:46,520 Speaker 1: democratic paradigm. Visit the site at demnext dot org, d 1153 01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:50,040 Speaker 1: e m n e xt dot org, and if you're 1154 01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:52,960 Speaker 1: ready to roll up your sleeves and start practicing democracy 1155 01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:57,680 Speaker 1: this way, look to the nonprofit Democracy Without Elections dot org. 1156 01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:01,440 Speaker 1: It has resources and organisms that can help you get 1157 01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:11,840 Speaker 1: started wherever you are in the world. If you take 1158 01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:15,080 Speaker 1: any of these actions, please brack about it online and 1159 01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:19,400 Speaker 1: use the hashtag how to Citizen. Also tag our Instagram 1160 01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:22,480 Speaker 1: how to Citizen. I am always online and I really 1161 01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:25,439 Speaker 1: do see your messages, so sender. You can also visit 1162 01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:28,320 Speaker 1: our website, howard to citizen dot com, which has all 1163 01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:33,160 Speaker 1: of our shows, full transcripts, actions, and more. Finally, see 1164 01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:36,680 Speaker 1: this episode show notes for resources, actions and more ways 1165 01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:40,800 Speaker 1: to connect. How to Citizen with barrettun Day as a 1166 01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:45,200 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio Podcasts and Row Home Productions. Our executive 1167 01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:49,080 Speaker 1: producers are me, barrettun Day, Thurston, and Elizabeth Stewart. Our 1168 01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:53,720 Speaker 1: lead producer is Ali Graham. Our associate producer is Donya Abdelhamide. 1169 01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:57,680 Speaker 1: Alex Lewis is our managing producer, and John Myers is 1170 01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:01,920 Speaker 1: our executive editor and mixed engineer. Original music by Andrew 1171 01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:05,959 Speaker 1: Eapen with additional music by Blue Dot Sessions. Special thanks 1172 01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:10,320 Speaker 1: to Joel Smith from iHeartRadio and Lay Labina. Next time 1173 01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:13,320 Speaker 1: on how to citizen What happens when you take urban 1174 01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:16,880 Speaker 1: planning and small d democracy and apply them to an 1175 01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:20,320 Speaker 1: Internet community, and what if that community has a bank 1176 01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:23,600 Speaker 1: with millions of dollars in it. So much of civics 1177 01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:27,600 Speaker 1: is boring right now and unengaged, and ultimately we're interested 1178 01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:30,520 Speaker 1: in shifting that narrative and that perception of civic participation 1179 01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:34,040 Speaker 1: to not just equating to voting in a presidential election 1180 01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:38,280 Speaker 1: or voting in a local district election, but instead voting 1181 01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:41,160 Speaker 1: in spaces you care about, digital being one that our 1182 01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:43,960 Speaker 1: kids are probably spending eighty percent of their days and 1183 01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:47,640 Speaker 1: lives in, and so I think creating more interesting ways 1184 01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:52,200 Speaker 1: for people to have a say in their digital spaces 1185 01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:55,400 Speaker 1: that doesn't need to feel so complicated but can feel 1186 01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:59,240 Speaker 1: fun is something that we really really care about. How 1187 01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:01,120 Speaker 1: I think about it is imagine if the first thousand 1188 01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:04,800 Speaker 1: users or Facebook could actually weigh in on the advertising model, 1189 01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:08,200 Speaker 1: like would that have changed the outcomes? Listen to our 1190 01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:11,919 Speaker 1: next episode with Alex Jane Mayor of the online web 1191 01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:26,960 Speaker 1: three community Friends with Benefits, row Home Productions