1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:01,960 Speaker 1: That when we push down our pain and we don't 2 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,520 Speaker 1: process it, we also push down our joy. 3 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 2: Today we have doctor Judith Joseph. 4 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,399 Speaker 3: She's a renowned psychiatrist and a leading expert in mental 5 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 3: health who has dedicated her life and career to helping 6 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,279 Speaker 3: people overcome challenges and live fuller, more meaningful life. 7 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: Trauma and depression have that core belief that you're not worthy. 8 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 3: People who were in the limelight and then suddenly committed 9 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 3: suicide and you were thinking, oh my gosh, they were 10 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 3: just dancing and singing, what happened to that person? No, 11 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 3: I've heard so many circumstances where they're like, we had 12 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 3: no idea that person was suffering. 13 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 1: So when you have someone who's the rock, who's always 14 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: on the go, you know, there's a term called annaedonia 15 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: where you may be doing things that you used to love, 16 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: but now you're just going through the motions, but when 17 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: you go home, you're not really happy. 18 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 3: Trying to really understand your emotions also comes with trying 19 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 3: to create a better vocabulary for it. 20 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: If you can pinpoint how you feel you're less anxious 21 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: about it, you know what to do about that feeling. 22 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 3: I'm RADI w Kiah and on my podcast, A Really 23 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 3: Good cris we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing 24 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 3: a space for raw, unfiltered conversations that celebrate vulnerability and 25 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 3: allow you to tune in to learn, connect and find 26 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 3: comfort together. 27 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, welcome back. 28 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 3: To this week's episode of A Really Good Cry. Today 29 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 3: we have doctor Judith Joseph. She's a renowned psychiatrist and 30 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 3: a leading expert in mental health who has dedicated her 31 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 3: life and career to helping people overcome challenges and live fuller, 32 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 3: more meaningful lives. Her new book, High Functioning, Overcome Your 33 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 3: Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy is so insightful and 34 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 3: such a practical guide for those who look fine on 35 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 3: the outside but aren't fine on the inside. Doctor Judith, 36 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 3: thank you so much. 37 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 2: For being here. 38 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. 39 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 3: I'm very excited to go through this book with you. 40 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 3: I read it from top to bottom and I found 41 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 3: it so fascinating. So thank you for the work that 42 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 3: you're doing and I can't wait to dive into it. 43 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 3: I would love if you could just explain the premise 44 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 3: of the book and what led you to writing it. 45 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: Clinical depression, as most people know it is when people 46 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: have these symptoms such as low concentration, poor sleep, not 47 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: feeling hungry, or changes an appetite, changes in your mood 48 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: so like feeling sad, and also something called anhedonium, which 49 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: is a lack of interest and pleasure in things that 50 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: once really lit you up and brought you joy. However, 51 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: using the DSM five, which is the bible of psychiatry 52 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: that I use in my research and my private practice 53 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: every day, under that if you have these symptoms of 54 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: depression but you still are functioning or you're not in 55 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: like significant distress, you technically don't have clinical depression. But 56 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: what I was seeing after twenty twenty was a lot 57 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: of people coming in having these symptoms of depression but overfunctioning, 58 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: meaning they were like showing up. There were the rocks. 59 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: They were overperforming, and that was their way of dealing 60 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: with their depression. But there was no place for them 61 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,959 Speaker 1: in this bible of psychiatry. So that led me to think, Okay, 62 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: I wonder how many people out there are experiencing this, 63 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 1: and there was a real need to study it. Most 64 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: of my colleagues were saying, oh, high functioning depression, that's 65 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: not real. You know, clinical regular depression that more important. 66 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: I thought, well, if we're only waiting for people to 67 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 1: break down to intervene, then we're just like missing the boat. Yeah, 68 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: why don't we prevent this from happening? And that led 69 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: me to conduct the first ever per reviewed study in 70 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: the world on high functioning depression that was published, and 71 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 1: I've had fascinating findings and I just wanted to share 72 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: that with the world. 73 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so interesting. 74 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 3: I actually had somebody on that was sharing about high 75 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 3: functioning codependency recently, and I think people can really relate 76 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 3: to the idea of showing up even more and trying 77 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 3: to busy yourself when you are feeling certain feelings. And 78 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 3: when you think of depression, you know, my mind is 79 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 3: don't want to wake up in the morning, don't want 80 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 3: to see anyone. You know, the way that you imagine 81 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 3: someone who is depressive to be would be in the 82 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 3: stereotypical way. But you know, when I've heard about people 83 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 3: committing suicide or the shocks that you have of people, 84 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 3: You're like, wait, they didn't look depressed at all. They 85 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 3: were showing up to work, they were dancing, they were happy, 86 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 3: they were laughing. And so when I read the book, 87 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 3: I was like, I feel like there's probably more people 88 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 3: out there with high functioning depression then there are people 89 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 3: who are actually showing up in the traditional way that 90 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 3: you see depression. 91 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: Being Yeah, I think you're right. Think about the queue 92 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: in line. If you think about people breaking down and 93 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: then people lead having these symptoms but overfunctioning and showing up, 94 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: it makes sense that there would be more people in 95 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: the queue, right, And spot on with busying yourself. One 96 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: of the findings in my study was a high correlation 97 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: with trauma, And in my trauma research, when people want 98 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: to avoid processing pain, what do they do. They busy themselves. 99 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: They distract themselves. So the classic avoidance you see in 100 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: PTSD is not wanting to be around the situations, the people, 101 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: the places that trigger you. But another more atypical presentation 102 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,679 Speaker 1: is busying yourself to avoid the things that you're trying 103 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: to not deal with. But the problem with that is 104 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 1: that when we pushed our pain and we don't process it, 105 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: we also push down our joy and that leads to 106 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: something called anne hardonia, which is a lack of joy 107 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: and pleasure and things that once lit us up. 108 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 3: So you said that when we push down our pain, 109 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 3: we also push down our joy. Yes, how did the 110 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 3: two correlate? I'm intrigued. 111 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: When you're avoiding feeling something, Yeah, you don't want to feel, 112 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: you avoid and you push you like on an unconscious 113 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: level or even conscious, you just don't want to feel 114 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: at all, so you busy yourself. But when you distract 115 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: yourself from feeling at. 116 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 2: All, yes, then you construct stuff from all feeling. 117 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: Correct. 118 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's almost like you feel this numbness. And I 119 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 3: often hear people describe depression or even when I've been 120 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 3: in long periods where I felt sad for there's a 121 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 3: feeling of numbness that you end up going through because 122 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 3: you don't want to feel the pain. And then also 123 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 3: if you don't want to feel one for emotion, it 124 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 3: kind of locks you off from. 125 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 2: Everything else it does. 126 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 3: What would you say is the difference for someone you 127 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 3: know trying to understand whether they're just sad or whether 128 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 3: they're depressed, Like, how do you differentiate between the two? 129 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: Sadness is an typical human experience, but depression may feel 130 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: very heavy, It may feel as if you can't get 131 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: out of the fog. And the clinical depression it has 132 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: specific symptoms, you know, the one that we treat in 133 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: the DSM FIB of the Bible psychiatry, all of these 134 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: this plethora of symptoms. To have clinical depression, you have 135 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: to meet criteria for at least two weeks or more 136 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: of all of these different symptoms, and they have to 137 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: lead you to have a lack of functioning or a 138 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: significant distress. What I'm finding with high functioning depression is 139 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: that you have people who have all these symptoms of depression, 140 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: but they're not breaking down. They're overfunctioning. So there's no 141 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: place for them in the diagnostic manual. There's no place 142 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: for these people who are showing up, who are the rocks? 143 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: And I thought, well, why are we waiting for them 144 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: to break down? Why don't we intervene before they break down? 145 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:55,119 Speaker 1: And there's this renaissance in like physical health, with longevity science. 146 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 1: You hear a lot of people saying, you know, let's 147 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: catch heart disease before it happens, let's catch ossioporosis, let's 148 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: use HRT to prevent all these issues in women, you know, 149 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: in terms of looking at the perimenopause and menopause, but 150 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: there's nothing like that for mental health. And I want 151 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: to change that. I want us to intervene before people 152 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: break down, before their bodies give, before they develop unhealthy 153 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: ways of soothing with their pain like substances and overuse 154 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: of technology and so forth. 155 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 3: What would you say are some self reflective questions that 156 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 3: people can ask themselves to really assess whether they, you know, 157 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 3: are going towards that or are actually in a depressive 158 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 3: or high functioning depressive state. 159 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: I think it's important to number one validate. So in 160 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: my book, I talk about the five v's, and the 161 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: reason that I use five is because most people have 162 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: five fingers. Most of us do, and so if you 163 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: imagine that, you know, happiness and joy are built into 164 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: our DNA as humans, right, we all have dopamine in 165 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: our brains. We just forgot how to access joys. So 166 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: I like to use the hand because I always say, 167 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: using one of these five v's that are evidence based, 168 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: joy is within reach. You just have to relearn how 169 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: to access your joy. Because when you think about babies, 170 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: and I treat small children when they go around on 171 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: the floor and they're exploring the world as toddlers, they're 172 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: tasting things, they're feeling, they're laughing. They don't need much 173 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: to access joy. But as we get older, as we 174 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: go through trauma, as we get distracted, as things happen 175 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: to us, we lose touch of that ability to access 176 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: joy easily. So the five's help and the first is validation. 177 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,679 Speaker 1: And what does that mean. It means acknowledging how you feel, 178 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: no matter if it's perceived positive or perceived negative emotion. 179 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: Accept it and it's important. And it sounds cheesy, but 180 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 1: if we don't acknowledge the pain, we can't acknowledge the joy. 181 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 1: And as humans, we need to know what's happening, and 182 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: we don't know how we feel when things are uncertain. 183 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: We're anxious, you know, we don't feel present, we feel frustrated, 184 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: we feel lost. So the first step is really validation, and. 185 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: Do you want to go through the other vias? 186 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: Yes. The second is venting. So if you imagine, like 187 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: venting is a physics term where air is trapped and 188 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: then when you release that and the pressure goes down. 189 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: So when we express how we feel, then that allows that, 190 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: you know. That's why when you go to therapy sometimes 191 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: you just you feel good. But not everyone is a 192 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: verbal you know, expressor and I work with a lot 193 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: of neurodiversion clients and so not everyone feels that it's 194 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: easy to verbally express. So there are other ways. With 195 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: the artists that I work with, they dance, they sing, 196 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: they paint. Others like to write in journals to express. 197 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: Others cry. I know your podcast, you know the day 198 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: and that crying is good for you, But there's science 199 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: behind that. When you cry, you really let out these 200 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: hormones that and you feel better. That's why we have 201 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: tear dys not just to moisten our eyes so that 202 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: they stay functioning, but also so that we can release 203 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: you know, that angst at times, that pain, so venting 204 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: is very important. And then the third is the values. 205 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: And I often say that values are thing that are priceless, right, 206 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: not price tag and I like my fancy things, but 207 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, when I'm on my 208 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: death bed, I'm not going to be like I want, 209 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: you know, right, I usually say proud of it, but yeah, 210 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: like you know, the things that bring you purpose and 211 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: meaning in life, like your family, your faith, the causes 212 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: that you believe in, things like nature. You know, these 213 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: are like priceless, so tap into that as much as 214 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: you daily. 215 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it was so interesting recently I was talking 216 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 3: to a friend and we were talking about the fact 217 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 3: that he feels like people don't value him, and they said, 218 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 3: you know what I reflected on, and I was like, 219 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 3: unless you have values, people don't know how to value you. 220 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 3: And you know, growing up, I had specific things that 221 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 3: I was really attached to. I was like, I love animals, 222 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 3: and that's something I really value. I know, I don't 223 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 3: want to drink alcohol, so I know that that's one 224 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 3: of my values. And so as I grew up, these 225 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 3: values actually ended up also forming how people saw me, 226 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 3: and they saw it when I valued something, it created 227 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 3: a sense of value in their mind of me. But 228 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 3: if you don't find the values that you have and 229 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 3: you don't know them, it's not only difficult for you 230 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 3: to value yourself, it actually reflects on how other people 231 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 3: also value you. And so it's really I really appreciated 232 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 3: that when I read that in your book, because I 233 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 3: was really thinking about it this week, and I was like, Yeah, 234 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 3: if you don't have values, then other people also don't 235 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 3: know how to value you because they don't see that 236 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 3: through you. 237 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. 238 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: Well, I talk about with my own personal jone journey 239 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: I would grew up in a pastor's home a spiritual home, yes, 240 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: and we would often help the community. We'd go out 241 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: every and we used to complain about it as kids, 242 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: but now I'm so grateful. But every weekend we spent 243 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: so much time helping people in the community, be it 244 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: like the YNCA or like a retirement home. You know, 245 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: I went into medicine to help people, but then, you know, 246 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 1: the accolades got in the way, going to Ivy League institutions, 247 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: getting another degree, opening a lab, getting the right studies, 248 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: being competitive. And then after a while, I found myself 249 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: feeling very empty and lost interesting and I had to 250 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: tap back into well, what fed me, you know, spiritually, 251 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: and it was being connected to people. I'm one of 252 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: four siblings. I like to be in a team, even 253 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: my team and my lab. I was losing sight of 254 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: feeling connected because I was so like chasing the clout. 255 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: But then when I tapped into okay, what's really important, 256 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: you know, like feeling connected to my community, that grounded me. 257 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: And at the time, I was going through a divorce 258 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: and I realized, you know, I was changed. I was 259 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,319 Speaker 1: chasing these things that I'm not going to be on 260 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: my deathbed thinking, oh, I wish I got a JD 261 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: on top of the MDMBA. Right, I'm going to be 262 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: like I wish I spent more time helping people and 263 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: being connected with people, right, And that just shifted my approach. 264 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:38,959 Speaker 1: You know, I had to tap into values as well. 265 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: And I'm a psychiatrist, So if it doesn't come naturally 266 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: to me, imagine how many people out there just meet 267 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: that reminder. So I have all these tools in my 268 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: book just to help people find their way back to, 269 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: you know, the values based on what I've done in 270 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: my clinical practice over the years. Because a lot of 271 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: people forget their past because of trauma. They don't realize 272 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: that memories get buried. So people say, well, I don't 273 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: remember what it was like that, I don't remember what 274 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: I valued as a kid. And then you trace back 275 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: and you realize there was a trauma. Maybe it was 276 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 1: their own parents divorce, maybe there was a loss, maybe 277 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: something bad happened to them, you know, in school or 278 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: with their friend group, and they just don't remember what 279 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: it was like to be lit up by something that 280 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: brought them purpose. So there are all these tools in 281 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: that book to really help people find their values again. 282 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,839 Speaker 3: It's so interesting isn't it where no matter what stage 283 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 3: of life you're in, Like, even for you, you know 284 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 3: the theory, it's like doctors, even if they're treating patients 285 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 3: for their health, if they've got heart disease or whatever, 286 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 3: it's like, theoretically, we know what's right, and so for you, 287 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 3: theoretically you knew what you should be doing or needed 288 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 3: to be happy. But there's one thing about theory and 289 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 3: then there's another part to its practice. 290 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 2: It just find it so fascinating that in. 291 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 3: Every stage of life, whether it's like celebrities wanting to 292 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 3: get more and more in life, whether it's you as 293 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 3: a doctor who's got all these incredible degrees and being 294 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 3: able to help people so much, or even if I 295 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 3: think of myself, it's like, okay, cool, I get to 296 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 3: help people with their health or through they're cooking. But 297 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 3: when you attached to the wrong things, it completely takes 298 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 3: away the benefits you think you're going to get. Like 299 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 3: when you attached to the wrong things, nothing feels valuable. 300 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 3: So yeah, I guess connecting to your values is such 301 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 3: a core principle to actually feel content and satisfied in life. 302 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 1: I love your use of the word attached because when 303 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: we think of attached, we think of attachment to others. Yes, 304 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: but you're absolutely right. You can attach to the wrong 305 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: value set and you think that you're doing the right 306 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: thing because everyone else told you, But you're not being 307 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: authentic to yourself, right, And so really examining what gives 308 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: I use these very primitive terms full and fed, oh yeah, 309 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: because some people don't know, you know, they've again pushed 310 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: around feelings. So I said, well, think about feeling full 311 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: and fed and whole and satisfied. 312 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 3: It's going to ask what do you think are ways 313 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 3: if people don't feel like they understand their values, are 314 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 3: their questions they can ask themselves? Or how do you 315 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 3: get to the point of understanding what your values truly are? 316 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: I have a ton of tools that I use because 317 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: you know, you said that doctors don't follow their own advice. 318 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: Doctors are some of the most depressed people. You know, 319 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: there's high rates of suicide within residents, and doctors tend 320 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: to have poor health because they're so busy looking after 321 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: their patients that they don't look after themselves. And they're 322 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: the people that are at least likely to catch high 323 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: functioning depression because it's like looking in the mirror, right, 324 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: because they're overfunctioning, overperforming, they're not dealing with their own pain, 325 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: so they're like, oh, come back when you're broken, because 326 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: that's what they're used to. They identify as being healers, 327 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: not preventors. Right. But the ways that I ask people 328 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: to tap into their values is sometimes we'll go through 329 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: a trip down memory lane and we'll go to a 330 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: memory that was the last memory that they can retrieve 331 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: where they're actually feeling full and fed, and then we 332 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: try to figure out what happened at that time or 333 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: if they really can't access the memory because of trauma 334 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: and the brain pushed it down. I have other exercises 335 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: where I say, well, if you had one person that 336 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: you could have dinner with, anyone, you know, they may say, oh, 337 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: Jimi Hendrix, right, And it's like, oh, I wonder why 338 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: because the person is not an artist, But why why 339 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: Jimmy Hendrix? Well, because you know he was doing things 340 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: for a black man at that time that were so 341 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: cutting edge. And then you realize, oh, so you're into innovation, 342 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: so is that something that used to value? And then 343 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: the person goes, oh, yeah, you know, when I was younger, 344 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: I used to tinker a lot. I don't do that anymore. 345 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: So with that individual, I'll say, okay, well, let's slowly 346 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: expose you to tinkering again, experimenting again. Maybe the first 347 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: day you look up online robotics, right, and then the 348 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: second day you look up a class, and maybe the 349 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: next week you walk by the class you peek in, 350 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: or maybe you don't. Maybe the following week you look 351 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: at a video online, right, and you take baby steps 352 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: back to things that the person valued. Another example I 353 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: have is someone who you know was in a city 354 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: and she was feeling a hedonic and it turned out 355 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: that one of her core memories was built in a 356 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: time when her family was together, and she didn't remember. 357 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: She valued she was in a busy, big city, important position. 358 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: But then we realized that she worked, you know, with 359 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: her family, should go camping a lot, and she didn't 360 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: have access to nature. So we had to work all 361 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: way back into nature and she felt full and fed. Again. 362 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: It wasn't like she was cured, but at least the 363 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: little steps of it correct. Yeah. 364 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 3: Wow, okay, so we've got validation values. There was on 365 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 3: venting validation venting values, and then there's two movies and right. 366 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: There's vitals. I always say to my daughter every night, 367 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: you know, there's only one you. There will only ever 368 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: be one you. You are so special. And I tell 369 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 1: my patients this too, And it's such a game changer 370 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 1: for people who feel lost, right because many people are like, 371 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: why am I here? Well, think about the the chances 372 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: of the universe making it so that you exist, because 373 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: there will only ever be one you, and that sense 374 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: of awe is so important. So what do you have 375 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: to do since there's only one you? You got to take 376 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: care of your body. Yes, you have a body and brain. 377 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: You'll only get one you know. Yeah, we haven't figured 378 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: out the science. One day will, but right now we 379 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: have it. So take care of your body and brain. 380 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: And within the vital section. I have the traditional things 381 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: you know that a doctor will tell you, like sleep, movement, 382 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: you know, eating nutritious foods that feed your brain and body. 383 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: But also there are things that we need to take 384 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: care of our body. In terms of you know, technology, 385 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: We don't know the long term effects of technology exposure 386 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: on the adult brain. We know a lot about children, 387 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: so you know, set healthy boundaries with your work with technology. 388 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 1: And also the number one predictor of longevity is relationships, 389 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: So don't discount the quality of relationship relationships. A toxic 390 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: person will drain your life force, you know, So sunvitals. 391 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: There's a lot, right, I don't want people to get overwhelmed, 392 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: but just pick one or two. And then the fifth 393 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: is vision because when we're so busy accomplishing and checking 394 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: off the boxes, we're onto the next. Right, I'm guilty 395 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: of this as well. But celebrate your wins. So like 396 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 1: for you, for example, after this podcast, celebrating a wind 397 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: can be having a a step of tea or just 398 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: like observing nature and saying, wow, I did that. You 399 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: know that was hard, Like I interviewed guests and I 400 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: listened and I validated, and you know I had to 401 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: take it in and you know, I should really reward 402 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: myself for that, right, So celebrating the winds in today 403 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: because tomorrow is not promised. And then you know, planning 404 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 1: join the future because that keeps you moving forward instead 405 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 1: of getting stuck in the past. 406 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 2: Well, that's nice, planning joy in the future. That's so true. 407 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 3: And I think people get so used to having such 408 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 3: monotonous days where they feel like every single day is 409 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 3: the same, but actually if you observe, so many different 410 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 3: things can happen in the day that you're not even 411 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 3: realizing because you are stuck in that robotic behavior. So 412 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 3: I imagine celebrating in different ways every single day, even 413 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 3: if it is you doing the same thing every day. 414 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 3: There's so much satisfaction and power that comes with consistency, 415 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 3: and that should also be rewarded. It's like, Wow, you 416 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 3: showed up to work seven days a day, or like 417 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 3: you showed up to work for the past twenty years 418 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 3: without taking awready, Like that's there's so many things to 419 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 3: be celebrated that people take f are granted in themselves, 420 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 3: And I think having that mood is so important because 421 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 3: otherwise you also don't appreciate the things that you're doing 422 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 3: in your own life or yourself in that way. 423 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean today it was a very busy day 424 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:14,959 Speaker 1: for me. LA is hard to get around, it is, 425 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: But I know that I'm going to get a massage 426 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 1: when I get to the airport and I'm going to 427 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: treat myself. But it doesn't have to be monetary, right, 428 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 1: It could be as small as getting your kid to 429 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: school on time. Like that's a struggle for me too, 430 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: exactly right, So after I get my daughter to school 431 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: on time, you know, I'm like, wow, that was hard. 432 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to sit in my living room and enjoy 433 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: my coffee and just savor it instead of you know, 434 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 1: jumping it and then leaving and going to work. Right, 435 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: So it could be the simple things. Yeah, it doesn't 436 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: have to be grand. 437 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 3: So sure, what are some of the lesser known signs 438 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 3: of depression that peeping often overlook. 439 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: Anna Donia is a term that's been in the medical 440 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 1: literature since the eighteen hundred. 441 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it was the first time I actually heard 442 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 2: of it when I read your work. 443 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: You know. What's surprising is that I went to a 444 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: therapy conference recently and I asked these tops I call 445 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: just in the world and therapists what anatonia was, and 446 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: they were like, I don't remember, you know, And I 447 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: was like, wow. So if therapists don't know to ask 448 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: you about it, then this is a symptom that's being overlooked. 449 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: And I think it's such a common experience to feel. 450 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 2: Like h or. 451 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: Checked out, not really feeling much because we are so 452 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: muted in terms of accessing joy these days. There's so 453 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: many distractions, right, We're constantly on the phone. We're getting 454 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 1: our dogmine hits. And what happens is that after a while, 455 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,239 Speaker 1: your brain gets so accustomed to all these hits that 456 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: you don't access joy in more, you know, stimulating ways, 457 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: such as through connection with others, through being outside, you know, 458 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: through eating food and not looking at a screen, something 459 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: as simple as that. Some of us can't even go 460 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: to the bathroom without looking at a. 461 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:52,360 Speaker 2: Screen, you know. Yes, I've been. 462 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 3: I can definitely put my hand up to that. I'm like, 463 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 3: see my phone outside, Why am I teaking it with me? 464 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 2: All so gross? Right? 465 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, these are simple things like when you're 466 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: with your pet, if you're like on your phone your 467 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 1: pet is like not getting that full experience, you know. 468 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 3: Having that full cycle of connection, like the exchange that 469 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 3: actually fuels both both people in that interaction. 470 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I often say that, like anadonia is contagious 471 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: if you're if there's a leader, and we've all had 472 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: bosses that you know, they weren't happy and then we 473 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: all weren't happy as a result, right, the same way 474 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: anadonia is contagious, Joy is contagious. So if you can 475 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: you know, rejuvenate your organization with a bit of joy, 476 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: you'll see people coming in feeling more energized, not just 477 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: about work, but about seeing each other. And that's why 478 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: it's important. It's not it's a very sneaky symptom. You know. 479 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: I say that depression is like twin sisters. You know, 480 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: they're they're fraternal, they're not identical on the outside. So 481 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: one is, you know, weepy and crying and in bed, 482 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 1: and the other sister is just muted. Right, But who 483 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: gets the attention the one who's weepy, the one who's muted. 484 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: At least they're not in crisis. But that's a mistake 485 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: we're making in the healthcare industry, is that we're not 486 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: really addressing you know, things like anaidonia, which are markers 487 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: for other things like depression, trauma, substance use, schizophrenia. We 488 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: have to address the lack of joy, not just be 489 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: about like eradicating depression, but cultivating joy. 490 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 3: It's so interesting because I guess, on one hand, you've 491 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 3: got the high functioning where they're allowed, they're they're present, 492 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 3: you notice them in you know, you notice them in 493 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 3: a room. They're very they're very noticeable. And then you've 494 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 3: got this other this other side, which is how do 495 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 3: you say and herdonia where actually they're just quiet and 496 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 3: in the background, and it just shows that there's such 497 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 3: a spectrum of depression or what symptoms you can have 498 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 3: of depression, where we have to be so much more 499 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 3: observant of the people around us, because you know, I've 500 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 3: heard so many circumstances where they're like, we had no 501 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,199 Speaker 3: idea that person was suffering. You know, we had a 502 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 3: friend who passed away and had like drugs in their system. 503 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 2: No one knew they were taking drugs. 504 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 3: You know, people who were in the limelight and then 505 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 3: suddenly committed suicide and you were thinking, oh my gosh, 506 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 3: they were just dancing and singing. What happened to that person? 507 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 3: And so I guess a big part of it also, 508 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 3: I was just thinking of the question of how can 509 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 3: people who are maybe around someone who seems to be 510 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 3: presenting with depressive symptoms, how can they help that person, Like, 511 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 3: what can we do for that person? 512 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: Well, well, I'm sorry about your friend who passed. And 513 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 1: you know, I've heard so many stories like that where 514 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: people are wearing a mask of productivitys, especially in the 515 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: entertainment industry and the arts, where you can't show up 516 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: to an audition and be sad because you won't get 517 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: the gig right, So you're kind of stuck being happy, 518 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: forced happy, performing and no one knows you're struggling. And 519 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: you know what I would ask about. My goal is 520 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: to really make the word antiedonia known. So when you 521 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 1: have someone who's the rock, who's always on the go, 522 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: who doesn't seem to need your help, or who's masking 523 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: a lot, I would ask about ant hodonia, you know. 524 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: I would say, like, you know, there's a term called 525 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: antedonia where you may be doing things that you used 526 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: to love, but now you're just going through the motions. 527 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: You're going just to perform, but when you go home 528 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: you're not really happy, you know. I would ask them 529 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: about that, you know, and help them to get back 530 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: into their body and not judge them, because the other 531 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: thing about people with high functioning depression is that they 532 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,479 Speaker 1: tend to people please, you know. I say there are 533 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: three risk factors trauma, unprocessed trauma, an hondonia right, not 534 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: feeling joy, and then something I called masochism, which used 535 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: to be in the Bible psychiatry they took it out. 536 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: Now it's known as people pleasing where you don't want 537 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: to disappoint others, You bend over backwards, you perform even 538 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: though you don't want to, right, So those are the hallmarks. 539 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: So these are people who don't want to tell you 540 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: that they're struggling. They feel guilty when they ask for help, 541 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: They feel ungrateful when they slow it down. Right, let 542 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: them know that you're there, no matter why, and then 543 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: don't wait for them to ask. You know, if you 544 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: see they're not eating, well, bring some food over. If 545 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: you see that they're isolating, just sit with them. You know, 546 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: if you see they're overperforming, you know they're constantly busy, 547 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: allow them to slow down, say hey, we could just chill. 548 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: We don't got to do this, and that. You know, 549 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: when people feel seen, they change. They feel as if 550 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: you know they don't have to do these things, they 551 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: don't have to mask, they can show their real selves 552 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: and just realize that this is likely coming from a 553 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: place of trauma. And trauma in itself makes people feel shame. 554 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,360 Speaker 1: When people are traumatized and bad things have happened, they 555 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: internalize blame. It's our way of controlling the world. And 556 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: so my children, when something bad happens, they think they 557 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: have magical thinking, like well, maybe if I had done 558 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: my homework while Daddy would have stayed, or like you 559 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: know this, Grandpa wouldn't have died, right, And that magical 560 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: thinking carries into adulthood. For some with unprocessed trauma, you know, 561 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: they internalize that shame. Well, maybe if I were like this, 562 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: maybe if I did things differently, And then they don't 563 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: ask for helps, So don't wait for them. Be there 564 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: even when they don't look like they need help. 565 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 3: I actually recently watched Trevoranoa talking about this on stage. 566 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 3: I don't know where he was, but he was saying 567 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 3: that one of his favorite things to do with his 568 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 3: friends because he was noticing that, you know, maybe they 569 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 3: weren't sharing as much now. Every time he meets with 570 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 3: his friends, they ask each other like what are you 571 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 3: struggling with? And the fact is that question isn't asked enough, 572 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 3: like what do you need help with right now? 573 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 2: How are you feeling right now? 574 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 3: Like even the simple question of actually sitting down and 575 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 3: I'm like, hey, how are you? But like how are 576 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 3: you feeling right now? What are you struggling with? And 577 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,479 Speaker 3: I think those questions, you know, were so used to 578 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,199 Speaker 3: having fun with friends and hanging out with them, and 579 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 3: kind of it can get quite surface level quite easily, 580 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 3: and you feel like you're close because you see each 581 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 3: other often. 582 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 2: But are you asking the right questions? And so he said. 583 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 3: I can't remember exactly what he asked, but it was 584 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 3: essentially along the lines of let's all go around the 585 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 3: circle and say what we're struggling with, because not only 586 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 3: does that bring us close together, we also get to 587 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 3: understand how we can help one another, Like in this 588 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 3: group of people that we have as friends, are we 589 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 3: here to just have fun or are we here to 590 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 3: actually support one another? And I thought that was really 591 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 3: beautiful because I think it's so easy. 592 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 2: To avoid those conversations. 593 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 3: And you know, you show up to your friend group 594 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 3: and a lot of the time, you know, with girls 595 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 3: and with guys, you want to show up as like 596 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 3: I'm doing well, my work's good, my family's good, my 597 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 3: girlfriend's good, like everything is good. And I think you 598 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 3: want to show up as being this version of yourself 599 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 3: if especially if people have perceived you in that way 600 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 3: for a long period. So when you and I think 601 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 3: that's even harder, like when people seem like they've got 602 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 3: it good and people have that perception almost breaking that 603 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 3: you feel like you're breaking their identity of you and 604 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,959 Speaker 3: you're showing up as weak ye, And so you can 605 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 3: continue that for such a long period until there's a 606 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 3: breaking point. And so just asking questions to your friends, 607 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 3: like anybody listening, when was the last time you ask 608 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 3: some of your closest friends of what you're struggling with 609 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 3: right now? 610 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 2: What can I help you with? 611 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 3: And I think having that regular conversation topics is so 612 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 3: important and could probably save someone, Like I always think 613 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 3: about that one conversation, that one smile, that one interaction, 614 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 3: that one genuine connection, that one moment when you just 615 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 3: sat with someone for five minutes longer, you have no 616 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 3: idea how much it could be saving the other person. 617 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: If you think about that person in your friend group, 618 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: maybe they can't do that in front of a group. 619 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: Maybe they have to do it privately. So for that individual, 620 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: it may be a walk, right, yeah, you know, come 621 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: with me on a walk and we don't have to 622 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: say anything, and let's observe nature and let's just like 623 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: let it flow organically like that. Sometimes people they don't 624 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: want to talk at all, So it could be going 625 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: to a gallery and looking at different art, right, everyone's 626 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: so different, and just showing up in the way that 627 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: that person can accept it so that they don't feel 628 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: that added pressure, because sometimes, you know, we do things 629 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: we want to help, but then we're like prying it 630 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: out of the person and they're like, well, I wish 631 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: I never said anything, you know, And that's where you know, 632 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: therapy is just so della. You know, when you go 633 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: to a therapist, you know, therapists don't pull it out 634 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: of you. They they're on this process with you. So 635 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: when you think about working with a friend who doesn't share, 636 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: try to figure out the way that they can best 637 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: communicate it that feels authentic to them so they don't 638 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: feel too exposed, but just be empathic. 639 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 3: From all the research you've done on depression, what have 640 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 3: been some of the most shocking things that you found 641 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 3: out or things that you weren't expecting with depression? 642 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: You know, I always knew that women were twice as 643 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: likely to have depression, twice as likely, twice as likely 644 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: to have depression and anxiety compared to men. Wow, Yeah, 645 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: isn't that fascinating? 646 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 3: It is fascinating because I also thought that women had 647 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 3: a higher emotional capacity and the capacity to receive pain, 648 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 3: to endure pain, to turn pain into goodness. Like in 649 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 3: my mind, I thought women are just so built for 650 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 3: resistance and adversity that I wasn't expecting it to. 651 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 2: Be that high. Yeah, I kind of thought it would 652 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 2: be other way around. 653 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: Honestly, I think you're right and that we can take 654 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: on more. We don't show as much, but with the 655 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: actual stats, we are more likely to have depression and 656 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: anxiety twice as likely. But men are more likely to 657 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: die by suicide, right, So that's the difference. The suicide 658 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: is what people take seriously, right, and they should. That 659 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: is a crisis. But the fact that many of us 660 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: are walking around pushing through pain. Right. This book is 661 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: for women specifically too, because they tend to push through 662 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: pain all their lives. Think about when you first got 663 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: your period, right, you were told everyone gets it. You know, 664 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: I have two sisters, the three of us. Everyone gets it, 665 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: so you should be fine even though you're like taking 666 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: a you know, algebra test and you're an excruciating cramps 667 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: and you're like, well, push through it, and you have 668 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: cheerlead to practice afterwards, you know, And then you think about, 669 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: like PMDD, which is the pre mental mood issues that 670 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: some women have. Right, they're told, well, you know, why 671 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: do you have to take off from work? Because every 672 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: woman gets their period? Right? And then postpartum depression, Well, 673 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: women give birth, you know, like my mom had five kids. 674 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: It's like, but did you know eighty percent of women 675 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: have the blues? Like what's up with that? You know? 676 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: And then perimenopause and menopause you know, are hormones. They 677 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: make us more vulnerable. And there's only one psychiatrist for 678 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: every thirty thousand people in this country in some parts. 679 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: So I thought, why are we keeping this science for ourselves? 680 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: Like why are we being greedy and stingy with it? 681 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: So in my book, I talk about things that I 682 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: learned as a medical student that we write up when 683 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: we see you, but we don't share it. So like 684 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: I want everyone to learn to understand the science of 685 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: their own happiness. So know the science of your happiness, 686 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: because the science of your happiness is not the same 687 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: as mine. Even though we're both women, right, we have 688 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: different experiences. We all have a bio psychosocial it's a 689 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: Venn diagram, but our experiences within the biopsychosocial are different. 690 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: So there's an exercise in the book where you can actually, 691 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: you know, circle your biopsychosocial and look at your biological 692 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: risk factors. So, as women, we go through changes once 693 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: a month. 694 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, too often. 695 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: And we also may have issues like I have low 696 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: thyroid puts me at risk for depression anxiety. You know, 697 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: you may have medical issues that put you at risk, 698 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: or your family history. And then psychologically you have different 699 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: trauma than I do, maybe different attachment styles, who knows, 700 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: maybe similar you know, different resiliency factors, but within that 701 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: understand it personally, I came to this country when I 702 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: was very small, we had very little, so that scarcity 703 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: trauma drives a lot of my high functioning depression. Right. 704 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: And then socially, you know, I live in New York, 705 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: you live in California. We have different surroundings, we have 706 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: different jobs. I'm a single mom, I have a busy business. 707 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: There are a lot of stressors. But then think about 708 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: things in your social life, like your relationships. You know 709 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,239 Speaker 1: your work environment, how much you're drinking, or you know 710 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: the foods that you eat. We all have our own 711 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: biopsychosocial and so I recently gave a talk to like 712 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: three hundred women and it had them draw their biopsychosocials 713 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: and they were all so different. Right, we're all humans, right, 714 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: we all have the DNA to have joy, but our 715 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: joy is going to be different and our experiences. So 716 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: understand the science of your own happiness and then you 717 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: can use the tools. That's why so many people they 718 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 1: read a book, they watch something on you know, social media, 719 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: and they're like, well, I tried that. It didn't work 720 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: for me, But did you understand the science of your happiness? 721 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 1: Because how are you using these tools when you don't 722 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:17,280 Speaker 1: even understand yourself? 723 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 3: Right? 724 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 1: So I wanted to democratize that. And yes, one of 725 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: the things that I found was that women tend to 726 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: push through pain, and in my research caregivers, they're the 727 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 1: ones that are feeling overwhelmed, right, Yeah, I imagine because 728 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,760 Speaker 1: they can't stop. You know, ask any mom who's busy, 729 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 1: who has a working and they don't have a choice. 730 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 2: They don't choice that they're making. Yeah, they have to 731 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 2: show up. 732 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,280 Speaker 1: So even though they want to shut down, they can't. 733 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 3: How can someone create moments of joy when they feel 734 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 3: overwhelmed by sadness? Like well, you know you've been talking 735 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 3: about joy so much and the science of your own joy. 736 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 3: What are some of the things that you found have 737 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,320 Speaker 3: been known to bring joy to people? Like without film, 738 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 3: if you do this, this can probably bring you some 739 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 3: joy in your life. 740 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: Well, I go back to the five v's, right, because 741 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: you I don't tell people to do all five at once, 742 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: because people will get overwhelmed, deflated and feel like they 743 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: you know that they give up. It's it's similar when 744 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: you see these like these skin routines and you're like, 745 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: I cannot do all that. 746 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, and also my skin does not look like that 747 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 3: when but when I do that routine. 748 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: I saw a video of a woman who was like 749 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: wrapped from my head to toe and I'm like, uh, 750 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: but so like do one or two a day if possible, 751 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: tappen too one or two of the v's. It's so 752 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: interesting because I have this research lab that's very scientific, 753 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: and then I have the happiness lab that's really my 754 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: passion projects, right, and so when people come to the 755 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: happiness lab, they're like, I just want to be happy. 756 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: When people come to the research lab, we're trying to 757 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: eradicate depression. So there's this like disconnect between the real 758 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: world and research. So it's a reframe. Right. When I 759 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 1: ask patients to come to therapy, you know what is 760 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: happiness for you? They it's all a list of things. 761 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: It's ideas, right like when I get that you know 762 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: job that I want, that partner at that house, you 763 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: know the stuff, this idea of happiness. Whereas when you 764 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: think of happiness and the research, you don't find that 765 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: word happy. You find points that make up pleasure. Right, 766 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 1: So like when you are hungry, did you savor your food? 767 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 1: When you were lonely? Did you feel connected to someone 768 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: when you were with people? Did you enjoy the interactions 769 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: when you got dressed for the day, did you feel 770 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,760 Speaker 1: pride in the way that you look? Right? So, joy 771 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 1: is this plethora of sensations that you experience, whereas happiness 772 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 1: is this idea that you're trying to achieve. But the 773 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: science shows that when you get the thing that makes 774 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: you happy, you're still not happy, You're still chasing. So 775 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: it's a reframe. Try to get as many points of 776 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: joy in a day. So think about it as Okay, 777 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: today I got two points, Tomorrow maybe I'll get three points, 778 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: and maybe the next day I'll get zero points, but 779 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: I can always make it up the next day, right, 780 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: Versus I just want to be happy, because if you 781 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 1: are pushing to become happy, you're likely not going to 782 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: get happy when you get that thing that you think 783 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: will make you happy. Right, But try to increase your 784 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: points of joy every day. So when you're having your tea, 785 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: you're sipping your tea, you're tasting the herbs, you're feeling, 786 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 1: you go down, you're feeling relaxed, versus I'm in my friend, 787 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: my phone shopping while having my tea. You know, try 788 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,439 Speaker 1: to be present in these physiological things that makes being 789 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: human human. 790 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm about to say it sounds so much like 791 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 3: the underlying thing you're saying is presence. Like, create more 792 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,839 Speaker 3: moments of presence, because if you're not present, you don't 793 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 3: recognize the moments of joy. You're not actually present for them. 794 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 3: You're not able to identify that this is a point 795 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,879 Speaker 3: in time where I can feel the joy. Because you're 796 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 3: constantly torn in different directions you are. 797 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 2: I wanted to. 798 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 3: Ask, what is something people don't realize contribute to their 799 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 3: mood and depression in a negative way? Like one thing 800 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 3: I loved in your book was the idea of like 801 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 3: seeing no evil, hearing no humans, speaking no evil. 802 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 2: And I think people. 803 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 3: Don't realize how much of a difference those things make, 804 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 3: Like what you're allowing into your senses. 805 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 1: We are always absorbing. And there was this all thought 806 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,720 Speaker 1: that Okay, once you're twenty five, your brain's fully developed, 807 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 1: Off you. 808 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 2: Go do that. 809 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, it's largely true that your brain forms 810 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,399 Speaker 1: by the time you're twenty five, But there's something called 811 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: neuroplasticity where you're constantly changing. That's why the brain of 812 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 1: an eighty year old is not the same as a 813 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: twenty five year old, right, And so because you're constantly 814 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: changing based on you're surrounding, you need to surround yourself 815 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: with things that feed you. So if you're around people 816 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: who are negative, who are talking about others, you know, 817 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: gossip can be fun, but it can also get really dirty. 818 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: You know, if you're constantly seeing things that are not 819 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: pleasing to you, that aren't feeding you, right you're in 820 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: front of a screen, or you're in a place with 821 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 1: no light, or things that are not beautiful, you know, 822 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 1: then you're not getting that stimulation. If you're saying things 823 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 1: that are negative you're speaking into existence these things that 824 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 1: actually do impact you, then that's all changing the way 825 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,720 Speaker 1: that you think. So true, and there's some urging research 826 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: that shows that when you're around people who are positive 827 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: and motivated, you become that way, just like when you're 828 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,320 Speaker 1: around people who are draining and toxic, you become that way. 829 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: So don't discount the value the quality of your relationships 830 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: because the longevity science is showing that's a number one predictor. Right, 831 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 1: That's why loneliness is as dangerous as smoking cigarettes. Yeah, 832 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 1: so think about who you're around all day long. Really 833 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: think about the top three people, and if there are 834 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: people who are dragging you down, you have to think 835 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:30,839 Speaker 1: about what you're going to do. 836 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like we absorb so much more than 837 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 3: we think. You know, it's not just the food that 838 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 3: you're eating. Every single thing that you allow into your 839 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,359 Speaker 3: senses is being absorbed into you and becoming you. And 840 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 3: so the words, the things that you're watching, the things 841 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 3: that you're smelling, the things that you're seeing, every single 842 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 3: thing is becoming you. So if there's an imbalance of 843 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 3: the things that are nourishing you versus the things that 844 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 3: are draining or taking from you, you're constantly going to 845 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 3: see that tip in the way that you're acting, feeling, 846 00:39:58,200 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 3: and living. 847 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and when you're too busy to really take stock 848 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 1: of your relationships. There are many people who are in 849 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: relation romantic relationships that are toxic, but they're like, well, 850 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 1: you know, like I'll just work on you know, something else. 851 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: So maybe they can't get out of it. It's not 852 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: so easy financial reasons. Maybe it's not safe. But this 853 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: all impacts you, right, and so everyone has their own 854 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 1: unique challenges. But when you're too busy to reflect, then 855 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,319 Speaker 1: you can go a decade and be with the wrong person, right, 856 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: the wrong friend, you know, the wrong job. So it's 857 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 1: important to slow down when you're a human being instead 858 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 1: of a human doing you see more? 859 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, you do? 860 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:36,840 Speaker 1: Because life, we only get one life. 861 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:38,360 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, so slow down present. 862 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 3: Yes, I wanted to actually move on too depression medications 863 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 3: because you know, I actually do have a few friends 864 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 3: that have been put on medication for it, and I 865 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 3: would love to get your view on I would love 866 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 3: to get your view on it. I always have like 867 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,760 Speaker 3: two I always battle between the thoughts of it. Obviously 868 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 3: I'm not an expat or, but I feel like a 869 00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,839 Speaker 3: lot of people are put onto depression medications so far 870 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,200 Speaker 3: us and I would love to hear your thoughts on it. 871 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 1: Well, you know, in some parts of America there's only 872 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 1: one psychiatrist for thirty thousand people. Think about that. If 873 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,280 Speaker 1: I have thirty patients, I'm overwhelmed, you know. I stop 874 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 1: taking private patients in twenty nineteen, you know, and I'm 875 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,759 Speaker 1: in a place I'm in New York where like there 876 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: are so many psychiatrists compared to everywhere else. So I 877 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,800 Speaker 1: think what's happening is people don't have access to therapists, 878 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,399 Speaker 1: you know, and people are struggling, you know, Like there's 879 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: also a stigma with regards to mental health because you know, 880 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: like you would never say to someone you know, oh 881 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 1: so you have high blood pressure, stop taking it, you know, 882 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: like you know, maybe you should just do this. In 883 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: that Not everyone has access to a gym. Not everyone 884 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 1: can't has the self control to eat properly. Some people 885 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:47,080 Speaker 1: have genetic hypertension, right, the same with depression. Right. Not 886 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,680 Speaker 1: everyone has access to a therapist when you finally do 887 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: get a therapist, and you have to afford one, when 888 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:53,279 Speaker 1: you can't finally can't afford when they have to make 889 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 1: time for one, and when you finally make time for one, 890 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,919 Speaker 1: then you have to practice it every day. Like that's 891 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,799 Speaker 1: hard for some people they don't have the access, and 892 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,279 Speaker 1: for some there's genetic you know, depression. It runs in 893 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: our family. So I think we have to remember that 894 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: the brain is a part of the body, you know, 895 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 1: and there's the biopsychosocial Right. The world is not the 896 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 1: way it was years ago. There's a lot more to 897 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,280 Speaker 1: weigh on our systems, right, So you know, when people 898 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 1: get the support of medication, I think everyone should know 899 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: that it's not a cure all or else we'd all 900 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: be on an antipressant. There would be zero depression in 901 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: the world. Right. The depression medicines may help with sleep, 902 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 1: they may help people to finally feel regulated so they 903 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: can get through a day. They may perk up someone's 904 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 1: appetite who's not hungry. Right, You're treating a lot of 905 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,839 Speaker 1: symptoms that are supporting someone and you're not necessarily curing it. 906 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:46,440 Speaker 1: That's where the interventions, the behavioral things, the practices, they 907 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: make a difference. 908 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:48,840 Speaker 3: You know, some of my friends that have been on it, 909 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 3: they get get been on depressing depression medication. There's this 910 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 3: feeling of numbness that they always describe where like And 911 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,319 Speaker 3: it's interesting because it sounded a little bit like anagonia. Yes, 912 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,879 Speaker 3: on this medication for depression, but they're still feeling. Yes, 913 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,040 Speaker 3: they get through their day, they're able to like function better, 914 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,360 Speaker 3: They're able to get to work, they're able to be 915 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 3: around people and do things maybe they wan't like, they're 916 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 3: able to get out of bed, which is something that 917 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 3: they weren't able to do. But in terms of how 918 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,839 Speaker 3: they're feeling, it sounds more like numbness. Then it does 919 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 3: actual like actually feeling better out of their depression, if 920 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 3: that makes sense. 921 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,839 Speaker 1: It does. I see this a lot with stimulant medications. 922 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 1: I see this with antidepressants. I see this with anti psychotics. 923 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:34,280 Speaker 1: I see this with mood sabilizers. 924 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,160 Speaker 3: So interesting, So what is it about the depression drugs 925 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 3: that does that to them? What does the what are 926 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 3: the drugs that they're given, and how does it affect them? 927 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: So for some people they may feel like this, you know, 928 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:50,279 Speaker 1: like just regulated easily down right or easily up right, 929 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: and then what happens with the depression medicine It kind 930 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 1: of regulates your mood. So it's all subjective right. It's 931 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 1: like before I used to feel very deep things and 932 00:43:58,160 --> 00:43:59,560 Speaker 1: now I don't feel it as much. 933 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 2: Right due to the body. 934 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:02,720 Speaker 3: Like, what does the drug actually due to the body 935 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:03,880 Speaker 3: to allow for that to happen. 936 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:09,000 Speaker 1: It depends. So the SSRIs they prevent the reuptake of serotonin, 937 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:14,840 Speaker 1: the SNRIs serotonin rpinephrin. The mood stabilizers like lithium have 938 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 1: other mechanisms. The medicines that work on GABBA have other mechanisms. 939 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: The ant psychotics work on dopamine, so it's hard to stimulum. 940 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,240 Speaker 3: Makes sense, which is why you can switch medications depending 941 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:25,960 Speaker 3: on how you're feeling. 942 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,960 Speaker 1: Understood, and there's no way to know exactly what's causing 943 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,920 Speaker 1: that muted because no one can tell you that. We 944 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 1: haven't gotten there with the science. Just like when you 945 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 1: have doctors saying, oh, you can image the brain and 946 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:39,200 Speaker 1: you can see depression, it's not true. Correlation is not 947 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 1: the same as causation. So you may see, you know, 948 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,440 Speaker 1: patterns in the brain, but it's not equivalent to, oh, 949 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,719 Speaker 1: this person has depression. Right, The science of your happiness 950 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,480 Speaker 1: is complex. The brain of a woman going through postpartum 951 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: she may have all the symptoms of a clinical depression, 952 00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:56,960 Speaker 1: but her brain is going to be different than a 953 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 1: man going through depression. Right, So it's you can't simply 954 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,520 Speaker 1: say oh, it's this right, and we're not there yet 955 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,840 Speaker 1: with the science. And that's why it's not as direct 956 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,640 Speaker 1: as one pill cure all because there's so many components 957 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,600 Speaker 1: that think about. There's the biological, the psychological, and the social. 958 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,879 Speaker 1: All of them play a role. But for me, that 959 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 1: gives hope, right because if you introduce a pill, if 960 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,880 Speaker 1: the person needs it, then you can also have areas 961 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: to work on. You have the diet, you have the 962 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,160 Speaker 1: social factors, you have the maybe they have to process trauma. 963 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 1: That should give people hope that there are different avenues 964 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 1: to get to exactoy, right, not just one. 965 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:33,359 Speaker 2: Yes, Actually that's true. 966 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,279 Speaker 3: If the like if this doesn't work, then at least 967 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 3: there's this. It gives you a plan ABCD and as 968 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 3: many as you possibly need to try and help yourself. 969 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,480 Speaker 3: Why do you think people self sabotage? Because I find 970 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,880 Speaker 3: that when you're in a sad state, or let's say 971 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,239 Speaker 3: a depressive state, sometimes when you get used to being 972 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 3: in that state, it feels so much more comfortable that 973 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,640 Speaker 3: you'll kind of stay in that state rather than trying 974 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,719 Speaker 3: to trying to be in a state that you're not 975 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,000 Speaker 3: used to, but it is better for you self. Sabage 976 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,279 Speaker 3: is something that many people struggle with and they don't 977 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 3: realize that's what they're doing to themselves. Have you had 978 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,040 Speaker 3: patients that do that and have you seen it linked 979 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:07,560 Speaker 3: to anything. 980 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,440 Speaker 1: One of the symptoms of depression is guilt and shame 981 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,840 Speaker 1: and hopelessness, and I don't think people know that that 982 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,360 Speaker 1: it's actually a symptom and also as a symptom of trauma, 983 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: and I talk about the three risk factors for I 984 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:24,719 Speaker 1: function depression, an adonia, trauma, and masochism. Masochism is a 985 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,760 Speaker 1: term that was removed from the DSM five masochistic personal disorder. 986 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 1: The reason was taken out, I believe in the eighties 987 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,480 Speaker 1: was because a lot of women were being labeled as 988 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: having masochistic personality disorders. So when people think of masacalism, 989 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,319 Speaker 1: think of the sexual masochism. We're not talking about that. 990 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:44,000 Speaker 1: We're talking about when people please to the point where 991 00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: it actually hurts themselves. So think about the domestic violence. 992 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,720 Speaker 1: You know survivor who people said insided violence on herself, 993 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,279 Speaker 1: So that was kind of victim blaming, so that was 994 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,239 Speaker 1: pulled out of the DSM five. But there are elements 995 00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,920 Speaker 1: of masochism that are still used today in terms of 996 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,200 Speaker 1: like looking at patterns of behavior. So people who tend 997 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,600 Speaker 1: to do for others and then deprive themselves of their 998 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,600 Speaker 1: own needs, right, bending over backwards when it's very inconvenient 999 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:14,759 Speaker 1: and even embarrassing for you, shaming for you, you know, self sabotage. 1000 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,640 Speaker 1: These are all behaviors that are masochistic, right, And I 1001 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,640 Speaker 1: see that a lot in people with high functioning depression. 1002 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,520 Speaker 1: If you think about the doctor who's working multiple shifts, 1003 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,760 Speaker 1: not eating, not sleeping, sometimes not even peeing, like surgeons 1004 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,000 Speaker 1: don't even pee, go through a ten hour surgery and 1005 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,040 Speaker 1: hold it. That's masochistic. You know, you're bending over backwards. 1006 00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,719 Speaker 1: So these are things that I tend to see in 1007 00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,600 Speaker 1: individuals and in certain cultures. You know, I grew up 1008 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,359 Speaker 1: in Trinidad, but there are cultures around the world where 1009 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,239 Speaker 1: women are tending to be like more people pleasing, Like 1010 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,839 Speaker 1: they're praised. If they do for others, they're praised to say. Yeah, 1011 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,719 Speaker 1: if they you know, like bend over backwards, they're considered good, right, 1012 00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 1: and then they're shamed. They're like, no, if they said boundaries, 1013 00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 1: they're shamed. Yes, So you know, it's important to reflect 1014 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,319 Speaker 1: on that type of self sabotage, which is really masochistic. 1015 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:08,560 Speaker 3: For a lot of people, success and doing well creates 1016 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,319 Speaker 3: a desire to self sabotage. For people who are used 1017 00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 3: to that, it's like, as soon as they see success 1018 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,839 Speaker 3: or happiness in their life, there's a feeling to self 1019 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:20,040 Speaker 3: sabotage in relationships in their career. If they're used to 1020 00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,000 Speaker 3: being addicts, then something goes well and then they kind 1021 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,759 Speaker 3: of reverse back. And so it's interesting cycle that people 1022 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:27,560 Speaker 3: get into when it comes to self sabotage. 1023 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:31,440 Speaker 1: Well, it stems from feeling unworthy. Right Again, trauma and 1024 00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,399 Speaker 1: depression have that core belief that you're not worthy. Yeah, 1025 00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,640 Speaker 1: so you don't do things that are in your best interest. 1026 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,200 Speaker 1: You go down a path where you end up in 1027 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,240 Speaker 1: suffering and it's a self fulfilling prophecy that you don't 1028 00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:45,360 Speaker 1: deserve it. Well, if you deserved it, you wouldn't have 1029 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,080 Speaker 1: done that thing. You would have ended up better off, right, Yes, 1030 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:50,680 Speaker 1: but it's from that core belief that's not processed. 1031 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:52,919 Speaker 3: Yes. I loved how in your book you talked about 1032 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,560 Speaker 3: expanding your vocabulary. Yes, the idea of like when you're 1033 00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,120 Speaker 3: feeling a certain way. And I've been thinking about this 1034 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,200 Speaker 3: a lot since I read the book where okay, am 1035 00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:02,800 Speaker 3: I sad or am I this? 1036 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:03,200 Speaker 2: This? This? 1037 00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:03,560 Speaker 3: And this? 1038 00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,200 Speaker 2: Am I angry? Or am I frustrated? Am I jod 1039 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:08,799 Speaker 2: am I? Whatever it is? 1040 00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,960 Speaker 3: Like, trying to really understand your emotions also comes with 1041 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,120 Speaker 3: trying to create a better vocabulary for it. Many people 1042 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,080 Speaker 3: are used to feeling sad, angry or happy, like do 1043 00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:20,920 Speaker 3: we know any of the other terms in between? And 1044 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,360 Speaker 3: I think that helps to identify what you're actually feeling, 1045 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,799 Speaker 3: versus having an overarching name for it where you actually 1046 00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:28,120 Speaker 3: can't identify what that is. 1047 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's a psychological term called affect labeling. 1048 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,759 Speaker 1: When humans know what's going on, they're less anxious. So 1049 00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:37,759 Speaker 1: think of twenty twenty. We didn't know what was going 1050 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,839 Speaker 1: to happen. The uncertainty was so frustrating and scary for us, 1051 00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,160 Speaker 1: and many of us couldn't sleep when we don't know 1052 00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,319 Speaker 1: how we feel the same thing happened. So it says 1053 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,279 Speaker 1: if you're in a dark room and something falls and 1054 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,759 Speaker 1: you're like swinging because you're like afraid you turn light 1055 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,080 Speaker 1: on and like you know, maybe a picture frame file, 1056 00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,440 Speaker 1: you just put it back up right. The same with emotion. 1057 00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:58,879 Speaker 1: So if you can pinpoint how you feel, you're less 1058 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,000 Speaker 1: anxious about it. You know what to do about that feeling. 1059 00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:06,600 Speaker 1: You know, So, you know, feeling embarrassed versus frustrated. Yeah, 1060 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:10,560 Speaker 1: that's very different feelings. But for some who don't validate 1061 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,239 Speaker 1: how they feel, they may not know the difference. So 1062 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,040 Speaker 1: they're just like, well, why am I feeling this way? 1063 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:17,360 Speaker 1: And it's like, well, were you embarrassed? And it's like 1064 00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:18,400 Speaker 1: I was embarrassed? 1065 00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:20,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh so true. 1066 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,560 Speaker 1: I wonder why that embarrassed me, you know, I wonder 1067 00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:24,560 Speaker 1: why I felt shame? And then you can go from there. 1068 00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:25,640 Speaker 2: That's a great analogy. 1069 00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:27,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's when you don't know something, you're so much 1070 00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:29,719 Speaker 3: more scared of it, and it makes you so much 1071 00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,200 Speaker 3: more fearful without identifying or labeling what it is. 1072 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,560 Speaker 1: And impacts your behavior. You may shut down, you may avoid, 1073 00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:39,040 Speaker 1: you know, you may get angry, you may react, But 1074 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,640 Speaker 1: knowing how you feel allows you to then take the 1075 00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:42,280 Speaker 1: right course. 1076 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,560 Speaker 3: Is there anything from your research or your book that 1077 00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:47,600 Speaker 3: if they weren't to read the book, you know, if 1078 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:49,839 Speaker 3: they're only listening to this podcast and they get this far. 1079 00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,360 Speaker 3: What's one thing that you'd want someone to take away 1080 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,160 Speaker 3: with them in their life and put into practice. 1081 00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:59,840 Speaker 1: You are the only you that will ever exist ever, right, 1082 00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,600 Speaker 1: I mean that always gives me chills. So understand the 1083 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:07,440 Speaker 1: science of your happiness. What's your path, what's your experience, 1084 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:12,240 Speaker 1: what's your biopsychosocial Understand you first, and then apply the tools. 1085 00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,239 Speaker 1: Then you'll get further. Right, we all know that when 1086 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,160 Speaker 1: we're uncertain, when we don't know what we're dealing with, 1087 00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,120 Speaker 1: we're lost. We're trying things that don't work, and then 1088 00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,560 Speaker 1: we're getting frustrated, and then we try things that you 1089 00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:26,080 Speaker 1: know can actually harm us. All right, So understand the 1090 00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,920 Speaker 1: science of your happiness. It's the best gift that you 1091 00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:29,800 Speaker 1: can give to yourselves. 1092 00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,000 Speaker 2: Yes, my god, thank you so much. 1093 00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:32,520 Speaker 1: Thank you. 1094 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:33,320 Speaker 2: This is wonderful. 1095 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:35,719 Speaker 3: Thank you for sharing your book with us, and for 1096 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,239 Speaker 3: anybody wanting to find you, where can they find you 1097 00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,680 Speaker 3: and research all the wonderful work that you're doing. 1098 00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,719 Speaker 1: Well, this was so much fun, and thank you for 1099 00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,560 Speaker 1: having me. You can find me at doctor Judith Joseph 1100 00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,120 Speaker 1: on all the socials at my website. The same doctor 1101 00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:50,680 Speaker 1: Judith Joseph amazing. 1102 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:52,920 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, and everyone go out and read 1103 00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,400 Speaker 3: this book Time Functioning, overcome. 1104 00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:58,719 Speaker 2: Your hidden depression and reclaim your joy. Thank you so much, 1105 00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:00,840 Speaker 2: Thank you 1106 00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:03,520 Speaker 3: Sis,