1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers. Since government conspiracies, history is 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained defense, you can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. Hello, 4 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. They 5 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: called me Ben. We are joined with our super producer 6 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: Paul Deckett. Most importantly, you are you and that makes 7 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: this stuff they don't want you to know. Have you guys, 8 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: ever been to the Grand Canyon? Yes, I feel like 9 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: that was right at the same time it was, but 10 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: it wasn't a jinx because we didn't say the same thing. 11 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,639 Speaker 1: You're right, You're you're so right. Yes, I have been there. 12 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: Have you been there been? Yes? Yeah, excellent? Yea. What 13 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: did you do in your travels? Yeah? Me too? Um, 14 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: that was not a yes, and yeah, us went over this, 15 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: Yes we did, Yes, and I will I will play 16 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: these reindeer games. Traveled there on a family road trip, 17 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 1: as a lot of people do in the United States. 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: Was completely amazed and beflum mixed by the sheer scale 19 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: of the thing. And you know when we fly out 20 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: west in the course of our job, which happens a 21 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: couple you know, it happens on a not uncommon basis. 22 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: Then we usually fly over the Grand Canyon and on 23 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: a good day you can see it. Yeah, and from 24 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: up there it looks amazing. It looks like kind of 25 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: the photographs, like a little miniature version of it, and 26 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: you it's hard to understand truly how vast this area is. 27 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: And uh, did you go on a family trip as 28 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: a child. No. I went with some friends. We had 29 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: a wonderful time. Did you trip acid? I did not, 30 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: though um I probably wouldn't do that anyway. Did you 31 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: ride a bureau? I did not. I literally stood at 32 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: the precipice on one the rims and just looked out 33 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: for about an hour. Probably South Rim R. Yeah, it was. 34 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: South Rim is the easier, the easiest access. Just a 35 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 1: little bookkeeping. We do have another guest on today's show, 36 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,839 Speaker 1: and it is called construction Noise, So here that occasionally 37 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: we're not gonna just we're not gonna pause the recording, 38 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 1: we're gonna barrel right through, but just f y I 39 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 1: we want you to know that you're not crazy. And 40 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 1: we hear it too, yes, which I think is an 41 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: important thing that people should say more often when there's 42 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: a weird noise around. So Matt, when you took this 43 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: trip with your friends. First off, it does sound way cooler. 44 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: No offense to family, but I think a friend road 45 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: trip is probably just on average, more fun than a 46 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: family road trip. They were essentially my family too. Oh man, 47 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: it's true, and I believe you. You know, I believe 48 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: you and you and your friends had the right idea. 49 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: In fact, every year more than four million people visit 50 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: the Grand Canyon National Park System. Just not me, not yet, 51 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 1: but hey, we'll get there. Man. In you want to 52 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 1: go to the Grand Canyon. You want to do like 53 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: friendship to the Grand Canyon? Are you in? Yeah, we 54 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: can do a space camp as long as we can 55 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: write a donkey. Yeah, that is the thing. I'm not 56 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,839 Speaker 1: making that out. But you have to book it way 57 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 1: in advance, no time like the president, my friends. So 58 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: where did this canyon come from? Let's let's talk about 59 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: what it is today. Most people living in the US 60 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: have a have a pretty solid idea of what the 61 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: Grand Canyon is. It exists in so much folklore, so 62 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: many tropes, It's referenced all the time, and physically it's huge. 63 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: It's kind of tough to miss. It's in the Northwest, 64 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: corner of Arizona, and it's near the borders of Utah 65 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: and Nevada. It's managed by the National Park Service and 66 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: several tribal organizations who have an historic claim to the land. 67 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: It's divided into the North Rim and the South Rim. 68 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: When we go on a road trip there, will probably 69 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: go to the South Rim because it's open all year, 70 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: and about the parts of his yars go there. The 71 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: North Rim is apparently spectacular. It's closer to Utah, but 72 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: it's much less accessible. Yeah, it's one of the craziest 73 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: things about this. It takes roughly five hours to drive 74 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 1: the two fifteen miles or excuse me, three and forty 75 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: six kilometers between the South Rim where the village is 76 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: there to get to the North Room. It takes that 77 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: long five hours and if you think, if you look 78 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: at it on a map, it does not seem like 79 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: it should take that long. And you have to be 80 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: very careful when you travel to the North Rim because 81 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: it closes during winter. Yes, yes, it's very true. So 82 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: how did this How did this thing get here? It's 83 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: been around a while, right, well. The general consensus from 84 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: the scientific community as of the Grand Canyon was formed 85 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: by the constant erosion of the Colorado River, and that 86 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: started somewhere between five to six million years ago, way way, 87 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: way back. It's a golden oldie cut. Yeah, I guess 88 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: Grand Canyon is literally a deep cut. Oh well, you 89 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: win this round, Ben Bowling. I didn't know we were 90 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 1: I didn't know we were playing. I feel like we 91 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: all lost for letting that joke pass. Were not the war. 92 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: Recent research may upend the notion of the canyon forming 93 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: all in one go and at the same pace. That 94 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: makes sense right over the same span of time. In fact, Uh, 95 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: the Grand Canyon might have been the result of two 96 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: separate canyons converging. That's interesting. That makes sense because of 97 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 1: the way erosion works, right, So if there were two 98 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 1: canyons that just eroded continually, they sort of grew into 99 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: each other. Yeah, I mean that that sounds like. That 100 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: doesn't sound crazy, not at all. And it's like two 101 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: slightly less Grand canyons, you know, kind of joining their 102 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: forces and forming a much grander canyon. That's correct. So 103 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: let's let's hit some numbers really fast just to get 104 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: this whole scale thing under under a microscope. Lay at all. 105 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: Even though you couldn't ever fit any of this under 106 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: a microscope, would have to be a very big micros 107 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: a massive one, a macroscope, a macroscope. The Grand Canyon 108 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: is two hundred and seventy seven miles long, two hundred 109 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: and seventy seven miles long, and it's up to eighteen 110 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: miles wide at any point. At several of the points 111 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: it's the largest, and it's more than a mile deep. 112 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: If you're talking about the surface level at the top 113 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: all the way down, that's a mile That is hard 114 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: for me to fathom. It's and again we're talking about 115 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: erosion here. It's just over time, five six million years, 116 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: just all that water, all of the weather, the sand, everything, 117 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: the rocks, just getting weather down and weather down and 118 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: weather down, weather down till you're a mile deep. And 119 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: what type of rock are we talking here, Well, there's 120 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: a couple of different kinds. We've got sandstone, We've got 121 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: an old favorite shale, one of my personal favoritestone. Yeah, yeah, 122 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: all the good ones, all the hits. That's always stunny 123 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: in Philadelphia. Reference that I probably should have explained on 124 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: a family show. And we owe the If we were 125 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: to write a thank you card to something responsible for 126 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: the Grand Canyon. We would probably send that card to 127 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: the Colorado River, right, which is worn this down. It's 128 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: uh one thousand, four hundred fifty miles long and I'm sorry, Matt, 129 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: I didn't check the kilometers on that one. Uh. And 130 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: it goes through seven U. S. States to Mexican States. 131 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: That's the lay of the land. This, this very long river, 132 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: this huge canyon that's a mile deep. Do we do 133 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: we already mentioned how many acres it covers total? No, 134 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: we did not. Let's let's just do the number. One million, 135 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: two hundred and eighteen thousand, three hundred and seventy five 136 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: roughly acres. Well, Matt, that's the finest number reading I've 137 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: heard in my days. It's a huge number, that number 138 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: of acres. If you think about you know, if you're 139 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: gonna buy a house anywhere near a city, you're gonna 140 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: get about point to five to one acre. Do you 141 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: want to buy the whole canyon? Matt? I'm just saying, 142 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: if you imagine that amount of space and then multiply 143 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: it by that number, Holy mackerel and people, it turns out, 144 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: have been living in the area for quite a long time. 145 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: As we record this in seventeen. Current archaeological evidence suggests 146 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: that humans were in the Grand Canyon as far as 147 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: four thousand years ago in a in like a permanent 148 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: residential kind of situation. But before then, at least six 149 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: thousand five years ago, they were visiting the Grand Canyon 150 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: checking it out, going, whoa, I mean it sticks out thing. 151 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: Can you imagine just happening upon that and just like you're, 152 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,839 Speaker 1: you know, a daily walk. Yeah. I wonder too if 153 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 1: when people were doing that, if the weather would change, 154 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: you know, if you're walking from a long distance. Man, 155 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: I bet you're right, because it's so massive that it 156 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: could even have impacts on like air pressure and all 157 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: kinds of different variables that could be perceptible, especially thinking 158 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: about the flat air in land that you'd be walking 159 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: to to journey upon it and just go, oh, what 160 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: happened here? You know, some being God or whatever what 161 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: have you? Created this? Um? Cool? We should at least 162 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: set something up here. And who was the first person 163 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: to get to the bottom and then back up without dying? 164 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: I feel like there were probably a couple of people 165 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: who got to the bottom and didn't make it back. Yea, 166 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: Like this was a really bad idea. Yeah, I guess 167 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: we're going to start a village down here now. And today, 168 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: this era, this group of human inhabitants is referred to 169 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: as the ancestral Pueblo of the basketmaker three era. In archaeology, 170 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: you'll often hear them referred to as the Anasazi, although 171 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: the modern pueblo and people do not, uh, they don't 172 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: really truck with this name because the word Anasazi is 173 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: Navajo for are either ancient ones or ancient enemies. And 174 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: today people are still trying to figure out exactly when 175 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: this distinct culture emerged. But the point is that there 176 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: have been cultures there for a very long time. Evidence 177 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: suggests that these Inner Canyon dwellers were part of Desert culture, 178 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: a group of semi nomadic hunter gatherer Native Americans. They 179 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: inhabited the Rim and the Inner Canyon. They survived by 180 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: hunting and gathering, along with a little bit of agriculture, 181 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: but not a not a huge amount, and as you 182 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: can probably tell by the name, they were noted for 183 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: their basketmaking skills. Yeah, they lived in these little small 184 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: communal bands inside caves, which makes a lot of sense 185 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: if you think about the structures around there. What would 186 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: give you shelter, and they made these circular mud structures 187 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: that they called pit houses are now referred to as 188 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: pit houses. And then through further refinement of agriculture and 189 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: some technology as it's being developed, it led to a 190 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: more sedentary, more able lifestyle for the Ancestral Pueblos starting 191 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: around five hundred CE, So that's when things start to 192 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: change a little bit from the hunter gatherer into not 193 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: close not what we would imagine as being a sedentary life, 194 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: but getting closer to that. And there's this other group 195 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 1: called the what is it the coh Coonia Coina. They 196 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: lived west of the current side of the Grand Canyan 197 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: village that part of the South room if you're imagine 198 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: you're looking at a map, and they lived there around 199 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 1: the same time that these ancient Pueblou people were living. 200 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: And you know, we know civilizations rise, the civilizations they 201 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: also do tend to fall, especially ancient ones, and archaeological 202 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 1: sites show that the Ancestral Pueblo and the Coconina flourished 203 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: only until about twelve hundred CE, and that's because something 204 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: likely happened a hundred years later that forced both of 205 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: these cultures to gedaddle uh several lines of evidence lead 206 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: to a theory that climate change, what's that caused a 207 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: severe drought in the region from twelve seventy six to 208 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:15,199 Speaker 1: twelve nine, and that forced these agrarian people cultures to 209 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,839 Speaker 1: move on to greener pastures. Yeah, you can't get any 210 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 1: crops to grow here. Our animals don't have enough food. 211 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: Let's get out. Yeah, and we should point out, you know, 212 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: a lot of this is about the timing of their 213 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: move into an increasingly agriculture focused society. And that's that's 214 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: typically what we see happening in cultures around the world. 215 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: Right a hunter gatherer, you grow some crops, domesticate some animals, etcetera. 216 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: There's a curious gap here in the record because it 217 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: turns out that, as Noel pointed out, this drought occurred 218 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: and people's skidaddults, and this is droughts are one of 219 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: the reasons, one of the common reasons behind a lot 220 00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: of civilizations in decline, like angor Watts suffer from a drought, 221 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 1: which led to, you know, the loss of the city's population. 222 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: And in the case of the Grand Canyon, what we 223 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: find is that for about a hundred years after people 224 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: left because of this drought, just no one lived there. 225 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: We have to wonder why we're people just telling their 226 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: kids that place sucks. It's for the birds. It could 227 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: have been thought maybe there was some kind of curse 228 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: or you know, something that was occurring there that was unnatural, 229 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: the sort of So it's possible. I mean, you can 230 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: imagine that being a word of mouth tail. So for 231 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,719 Speaker 1: thousands of years, other than this one, this gap, for 232 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: about a century, there's been a continual inhabitants, right can 233 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: There's there's always been some sort of human population there, 234 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: primarily Native Americans who built settlements within the canyon, and 235 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: as Matt pointed out, it's many caves. The public people 236 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: considered the Grand Canyon a holy site. They made pilgrimages 237 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 1: to it, and of worse, at some point a European 238 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: quote unquote discovers it. Yeah. Yeah. The first European known 239 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 1: to have even viewed set eyes on the Grand Canyon 240 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: was Garcia Lopez Dicardennes from Spain, and he arrived there 241 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: in fifteen forty, so he was a little late to 242 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: the party. But when he discovered its tend to be 243 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: but you know, hey, he found it and put it 244 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: on a map. Somewhere, good guy, and fast forward to 245 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: the present. That's a quick and dirty look at the 246 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: past of the Grand Canyon. But there's still mysteries in 247 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: the present day. As we've covered in earlier episodes, people 248 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: disappear in public parks way more often than you might think. 249 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: And I don't know about you, guys, but I was 250 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: stunned to discover that there is no federal database tracking 251 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: these people. Yeah, it seems like they're probably should be. 252 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: Even if it was, even if it was just shorthand 253 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: somewhere or a single Google doc that would be that 254 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: would make a lot of sense. But no, And people 255 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: forget the United States is very much a wilderness. Uh. 256 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: We have these vast swaths of unoccupied land right no roads, 257 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: no cities, no cell phones, et cetera. We do have 258 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: wilderness here, and thankfully a lot of it is protected. Otherwise, 259 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: you know, commerce would probably find a way to swoop 260 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: in and bulldoze a whole lot of it. Yeah, but 261 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: it's the wilderness, dude. Anything could be out there, It's true, 262 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: But I mean, you know, it can be tamed by combines, 263 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: geese or another thing that has absolutely nothing to do 264 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: with this episode. But I think it is interesting is 265 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: the habit that a lot of companies have of buying 266 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: access or buying land that has a water source on 267 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: it and then taking that water and making bottled water. Yeah, Nestle, yes, 268 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: exactly like Nestleie. It sounds like some evil doctor Soda 269 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: scheme to me. Really is. And the Grand Canyon is 270 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: no different from a lot of these other wild areas. 271 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: They're challenging trails, you know. Um, Nolan is not joking 272 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: about the borrow. It's a real thing. Uh. There's tremendous 273 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: isolation in parts of it, right, Like can you imagine 274 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: some for some reason being stuck at the North Rim 275 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: in winter? It was not just a borrow, right. It 276 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: comes with a guide, Yes, someone who really knows the 277 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: lay of the land, and we'll you know, guide you 278 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: on this uh this donkey ride down these steep passes 279 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: and and hopefully you know, get you there alive. You 280 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: are excited about this, Well, I'm into it manly on 281 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: a book. Yeah, let's book. Okay, let's go. So you're 282 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: talking about these these mile long or mild depth areas 283 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: which you know are really scary, like you're talking about 284 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: you've also got the Colorado River which is just rapidly 285 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: flowing down below you, and most of the places where 286 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: you're going to be visiting and climbing. Absolutely, and we 287 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: also know that these they're gonna be disappearances, injuries, and 288 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: deaths due to natural causes, right, but there are some 289 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: things that are a little more sinister, and we have 290 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: to admit that. Yes, over time, several people have likely 291 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: been murdered in the canyon. Some might remain undiscovered today. 292 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: It's just gigantic. It's it's worse than a needle in 293 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 1: a haystack situation, especially before the invention of GPS. Yeah, 294 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: if you think about the number of people over time 295 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: that will visit any certain point in the Grand Canyon, 296 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: that isn't some of the most trafficked your your numbers 297 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 1: are gonna be really small, absolutely, And I mean think 298 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 1: of all the the the neat tuckaway kind of spots 299 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 1: on the way down to there's probably little caves and 300 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 1: areas that would be harder to get to, and if 301 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 1: you had a really good sense of all this stuff, 302 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: you could probably hide a body pretty easily. That's a 303 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 1: really good point. You're right, we should go in. We 304 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: have an example. Sorry, we have an example. These Idaho 305 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: farmers named Glenn Hyde and Bessie how I had traveled 306 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: six miles along the Green and Colorado Rivers in this 307 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: huge wooden boat, a sweep scow. The boat was found intact, 308 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: they found the couples, uh, food, their diary, their guidebook, clothing, 309 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: the gun, and it was forty six miles from the 310 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: mouth of the Grand Canyon. But the honeymooners, oh yeah, 311 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, they were on their honeymoon, were never found. 312 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: And ever since, Glenn and Bessie Hyde have been the 313 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: focus of campfire stories and at least four maybe Glenn's 314 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 1: and Bessie's appeared or sighted in later years and over 315 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: these legends of this miraculous escape. But that's just one example. 316 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: That's just one example of something that still remains officially unsolved. 317 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: And if you look, by the way, I just want 318 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: to say, if you look at the sweep scale boat, 319 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: it looks like something that should not be going down 320 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: rapids in a river. It looks like this wooden I 321 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: mean large, like the shape of a boat, a big 322 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: boat with with two humans on it that look away 323 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: too small compared to the boat to be going down 324 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: a river. Like that with rocks like giant, huge boulders 325 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: just kind of sitting there and outcroppings. That sounds like 326 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: Glenn and Bessie Hyde may have signed up for more 327 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 1: than they were ready for. Well they had, they had 328 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: done it before, apparently like they were pretty seasoned, right 329 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: they had. I think they had uh done some rafting 330 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: and wyoming. Yeah, they've done things very similar, So I 331 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: think they expected it to be okay because there's no 332 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 1: like Bunny trail in the in the Grand Canyon. I mean, 333 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 1: it's like you said, one side is a little easier 334 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: to access than the other, but overall it is uh 335 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: some pretty punishing terrain. Yeah. True. And you're probably asking 336 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: us and maybe yourself, you know, Matt Noel, super producer, 337 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: Paul Ben this is interesting, But why are you telling 338 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 1: us about the Grand Canyon that this is all the 339 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: set up. All we've been doing now is setting up 340 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: the actual episode because today's twist, you see, it's not 341 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: a out a normal disappearance of a couple, tragic as 342 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: it may be, nor is it about the disappearance of 343 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: individuals today story. Instead, it's about the disappearance of civilization. 344 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: And today's question is is there a lost civilization in 345 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: the Grand Canyon, And we'll dive right into that after 346 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: a quick word from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. 347 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: What if there really was some other unknown to uh, 348 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: to modern history, unknown to you and I listening to 349 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: this right now, some ancient civilization that called the Grand 350 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: Canyon home, that was their way before any of the 351 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: proven civilizations that we've discussed, the ancient pueblos. What if 352 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: it's been there all along, someone just had to discover it. Yes, 353 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,679 Speaker 1: what if? And not not just some kind of like 354 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: city of ghost city of dead hikers, but like ancient forces, right, like, 355 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: what has it been the Hopie? The Keeper of Death? Yes, yes, 356 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: the Keeper of Death is said to reside in the 357 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: Grand Canyon. Have not independent all you gotta do a 358 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 1: slip on a rock and you will meet him. The 359 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: Hopie Keeper of Death is waiting for you. They just 360 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: don't put it in a lot of the brochures, but 361 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: they're out there, and according to newspapers, the Hopie believe 362 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,360 Speaker 1: there was an earlier iteration of civilization in the Canyon. 363 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: They believed that their ancestors once lived in an underworld 364 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: until dissension rose between the good people and the bad people, 365 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 1: which they described as the people of one heart and 366 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: the people of two hearts, and this conflict led them 367 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: to leave this underground paradise. And the just this legend 368 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 1: is really cool to look into. It gets complicated quickly 369 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 1: with the different types of people, how they're described, um, 370 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: and you'll see people that we'll talk about a little later, 371 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: like David Ike, who are ascribing things maybe a little 372 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 1: differently to them than than I would ascribe to what 373 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 1: I have read. But you get into thoughts of lizard 374 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: people here. You get into images of other otherworldly humanoids 375 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: right right, whether they are purported to be purely folklore, 376 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: whether they are purported to be you know, ancient extraterrestrials 377 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 1: or some sort of parallel sapient species that existed along 378 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: with Homo sapien. I love this though, This kind of 379 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: mythology of the Grand Canyon being almost like a gate 380 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: to the underworld or a passage into the afterlife, that 381 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: is that is cool. Yeah, man, I keep harping on this, 382 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: but it's a mile down and that is the You're 383 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 1: getting close. So nowadays, although we have a wealth of 384 00:22:55,119 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: facts and information about the Grand Canyon, we don't have 385 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: the same sense of it that people had back in 386 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: the day. Like in the eighteenth and nineteenth century, the 387 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 1: Grand Canyon was this fascinating, mysterious and very dangerous thing. 388 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 1: US residents were stunned by the Formation, and to be 389 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: honest with you, a lot of readers, especially in the 390 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds, would have believed any number of strange 391 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: things about it. They're probably not going to go right, 392 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: They probably only have a few newspapers that they read, right, 393 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: and they their chances of meeting someone who traveled there 394 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: are much lower than our chances of meeting a Grand 395 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: Canyon visitor would be today. Yeah, it's it's the thing 396 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: that Ben talks about a lot on this show, where 397 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: the cost of communication back in the day, as well 398 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 1: as the cost of transportation, When you add those two 399 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: things together and you're talking about the early twentieth century, 400 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: it's exactly. I'm just meaning to reiterate it. You're not 401 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: going to get to the Grand Canyon unless you have 402 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: the means. And now, like the Internet is democratized, like 403 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: information in such a way that like everybody knows everything, 404 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: not everything, but like they have access to it if 405 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: they so choose to seek out set information. Absolutely, Pandora's 406 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: jar is open for better or for worse. So we 407 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: we looked into this because we had we had received 408 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: several emails and correspondencies. Do I see correspondencies cool? While 409 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 1: we're going with it, Um, We received several messages from 410 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: you and your fellow listeners who asked us to look 411 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 1: into these stories of low civilization in the Grand Canyon. 412 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: And one thing that was profound to us is we 413 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: deal with a lot of hoaxes just in the nature 414 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: of our research, and we we like to think we 415 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: have an okay nose for determining what's fake or determining 416 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: what's real. UM. Noel and Matt are both audio and 417 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: video experts, so they are able to They're able to 418 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 1: look at a picture and say whether it's a it's 419 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: a fuzzy light, or if it's actually something spooky able 420 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: to analyze audio. People back then didn't have that benefit. 421 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: But I was totally not expecting to find real newspaper articles. 422 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: That's what I should say, you know what it's just 423 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: say at the top. I thought I was going to 424 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: find a bunch of fake stuff that by fake, I 425 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: mean like something someone made in that they look like 426 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: it was made in that time, not like the fake 427 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: news of today. I guess kind of like that. Yeah, 428 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: but like about the Grand King, it required a lot 429 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: more effort to do it back then. Though. You had 430 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: you had to really like go through with your paste 431 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: and you had cut out stuff and do a real 432 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: good job. Today people can just write bull crap on 433 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: the internet. It's it's true. And in this instance, it 434 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: was an actual newspaper, the Arizona Gazette, and it published 435 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: an actual story that ran in the paper. Was it 436 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: was published, it was printed, it was sent out to readers. 437 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 1: It was a series of stories. Yeah. A March twelfth 438 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: of nineteen o nine, Uh, the Arizona Gazette reported that 439 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: an explorer by the name of G. E. Kincaid. Please 440 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: keep that in your mind, because we'll get back to ge. 441 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: They said that he was traveling alone or along the 442 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: Colorado River and he had discovered profound, previously unknown architecture 443 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: and artifacts inside a vast series of caverns within the 444 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: Grand Canyon. So this is in the early so unlike 445 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: I mean, Indian Native American artifacts were very much a 446 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: known quantity, right, yeah, so unknown, Like what are we 447 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: talking about, right? He uh would. The implication in the 448 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: story is that they were clearly not from any known 449 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: Native American source. Interesting. Yeah, we're gonna get into a 450 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,199 Speaker 1: lot of that stuff. But the big question that I 451 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 1: had immediately upon reading this is, all right, who is 452 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: this Mr Kincaide, Ge Kincaid fellow. I'm glad you asked, 453 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: because we know very very little about him other than 454 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: that he came from Lewiston, Idaho, and according to the 455 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 1: Arizona Gazette, he had worked as a scout for the 456 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: Smithsonian for over thirty years. Oh that's okay, all right. 457 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: He was also when you read newspapers from this time, 458 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 1: the things they choose as descriptors and the way that 459 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 1: they prioritize information just seems really weird. One of the 460 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 1: few facts we know is that the Arizona Gazette said 461 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: Ge Kincaid is, in addition to being a scout for 462 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 1: the Smithsonian, the first white child born in Idaho. Um. 463 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: I just have to say that is the first thing 464 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: that they say about ge Kinkaid in the article. That's 465 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: how they introduce him, Gee Kinkaid, the first white child 466 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,360 Speaker 1: born in Idaho. The first white child that's in Idaho. 467 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: That is what is printed on the page. As I know, 468 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: who seems like one of the whitest places in America 469 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: To me, I got, wow, who knew? But I guess 470 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: you know what you're talking about Western expansion and all 471 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 1: that stuff, so well, I guess it's his fault. Yeah. 472 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 1: Also nine, Yeah, I know. Really it just seems like 473 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: that's so funny. Yeah, it's it's a weird way to 474 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: describe someone, you know. So Additionally, he had spent time 475 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: traveling down the Green River, and he was noted as 476 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: carrying a camera unspecified type of camera, but some sort 477 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 1: of camera, and the initial article in the gazette prompted 478 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,959 Speaker 1: a series of expeditions by people who were seeking the 479 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: answers for themselves as well as wealth and buried treasure. 480 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: So if you're a scout for the Smithsonian, you're not 481 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: even like the ones actually taking the pictures they're going 482 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: to publish. You're just going out there and identifying spots 483 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: for the real photographers to come back out there, knowing 484 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: that it's safe and then take the real pictures. Right, 485 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: I bet you're right. Yeah, maybe he was expendable. That's 486 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: why they sent him down the Colorado River and they 487 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: literally sold him down the river. He was a red shirt. Yeah. Yeah. 488 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: So there's a lot that we haven't unpacked about this yet, 489 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: and it's pretty crazy. It's we're gonna get into stuff 490 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: you're asking about, noel. Um. The first thing we have 491 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: to really think about here is tracking these sources, like 492 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: where where are we getting the information? Where is the 493 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: gazette getting its information? And you know, the gazette itself. Yeah. 494 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: So according to the Gazette, again a real newspaper, uh, 495 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: the exploration was being directed by the Smithsonian, specifically by 496 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: an anthropologist there named s. A. Jordan's professor s. A. 497 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: Jordan's And apparently Kincaid was well known in these circles. 498 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: They paint him as sort of an Indiana Jones type, 499 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: very much so. And in the article Kincaid talks a 500 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: little bit about the location of the cavern system. Yes, 501 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: he said it was in the Marble Canyon region. You 502 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: can look that up if you'd like to. But we 503 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna read a passage from the article here. 504 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: The cavern was described as being quote nearly a mile underground. Okay, 505 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: that kind of checks out. About one thousand, four hundred 506 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: and eighty feet below the surface. The main passage had 507 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: been delved into to find a mammoth chamber, from which 508 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: radiates scores of passageways like the spokes of a wheel. 509 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: Several hundred rooms have been discovered, reached by passageways running 510 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: from the main passage, one of them having been explored 511 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: for eight hundred and fifty four ft and another for 512 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: six hundred and thirty four ft. This is amazing. How 513 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: would you have accessed this like from the from the 514 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: Grand from the canyon, because that's all open to the 515 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: sky such for it to be underground? Does that mean 516 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: you would have to go into like a cave and 517 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: then go down through a passage. So yeah, here's here's 518 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: my issue with this whole thing. So the entrance is 519 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: about one was a foreign and eight feet below the surface, 520 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: So we have to imagine the surface would be top 521 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: of the Grand Canyon, right, and then go down that 522 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: much then you get to the entrance and then nearly 523 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: a mile underground from there. I I don't know, perhaps 524 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: these two things are being described as the same. Um 525 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: not just trying to picture this is amazing though, and 526 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: that go on, what what what? What did he find? Yeah? 527 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: What's in there? Well, they found numerous artifacts from some 528 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: ancient unknown civilization articles which have never been known as 529 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: native to this country, and doubtless they had their origin 530 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: in the orient Wall weapons, copper instruments, shop edged at 531 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: hodd As steel indicate the high state of civilization reached 532 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: by these strange people. Sorry, there was also this Buddha 533 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: like I would describe it as Buddha like statue which 534 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: sits with its legs crossed like in a almost like 535 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: a meditative, meditative pose. Yeah, with a lotus flower or 536 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: a lily in each hand. And that that description is 537 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: very um. That description is meant to further their argument 538 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: that these seem to be somehow asiatic and extracial. Even 539 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: is quoted as saying, quote, the cast of the face 540 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: is Oriental unquote. But what the devil were they doing 541 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: here in the canyon? Ah don't know, uh they were? 542 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: According to the article, Um, the scientists are not certain 543 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: as to what religious worship it represents. It is possible 544 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 1: that this worship most resembles the ancient people of Tibetan. 545 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: Bet it sounds very Tibetan, doesn't. Among the other other 546 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: finds are vases or urns and cups of copper and 547 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: gold made very artistic in design. And we know that 548 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: using the term oriental is incredibly racist. Yes, that's why. 549 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: That's just kind of lopping it in with a whole 550 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: white child thing. But the steel happens, the lotus flower holding, 551 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: you know, Buddha figure. This all really does sound like 552 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: stuff that would have been around, you know, in in 553 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: Asian cultures. Yeah, and it sounds amazing. And you can 554 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: imagine why this article being printed caused so many people 555 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: to want to get out there and like find that stuff. 556 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: Oh man, I'm gonna be rich. And that's the that's 557 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: the big question. Why was this so important? What happened next? 558 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: We'll tell you after a word from our sponsor, So 559 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: I hope everybody had a good break. We're going to 560 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: look at why this was so crucial and so important, 561 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: why it means such a splash, And probably one of 562 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: the best ways to do that is with an excerpt 563 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: from the gazette directly discoveries which almost conclusively prove that 564 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: the Ray East, which inhabitant this mysterious cavern hewne in 565 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: solid rock by human hands, was of Oriental origin. Cringe, 566 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: possibly from Egypt, tracing back to Ramsey's. If their theories 567 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: are born of by the translation of the tablets engraved 568 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: with hieroglyphics, the mystery of the prehistoric peoples of North America, 569 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 1: their ancient arts, who they were, and whence they came 570 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: will be solved. Egypt and the Nile and Arizona and 571 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: the Colorado will be linked by a historical chain running 572 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: back to ages, which staggers the wildest fancy of the fictionist. 573 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: Well done, and I love the idea of using fictionists 574 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 1: as a fictionist, you sir, fictionists, let's do that. Can 575 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: we make that happen on this show? And then we 576 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: we slapped them with a glove, Yes, yes, bite our thumbs, 577 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 1: all right, we have to get gloves. Paul you in, Okay, 578 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: he's not a hundred percent, but he's gonna he's gonna 579 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: go along with them. Gave us a gloved thumb up right. 580 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: So this, this excerpt shows something that we have seen 581 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 1: before in different cultures. You know, when European explorers found 582 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: ancient African cities, if you know, they tried to write 583 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 1: it with their preconceived ideology, their framework through which they 584 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: saw the world, which unfortunately usually meant them going ah, yes, 585 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 1: there's evidence of white people, but they called it civilization 586 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: as a euphemism. But let's be clear, that's what they meant. 587 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: They meant like something that was closer to what they 588 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:53,879 Speaker 1: thought of as society, which was European. And you can 589 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,280 Speaker 1: read a lot of criticism for stuff like ancient alien 590 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 1: theory that we've talked about before, and and stuff like 591 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: claiming to find a loss civilization in One of the 592 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: big tentpoles of this sort of criticism is saying that 593 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: the people who believe that or argue it despite the 594 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: evidence are actually unconsciously or consciously, they're devaluing the work 595 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: and the existence of the people who were really there. 596 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: So we can't we can't read this and not recognize 597 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: that on some level, the implication here is like Native 598 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: Americans are not as good as you know us the 599 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: first white child and Ido, speaking of the first white child, 600 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 1: this story has sort of a spooky stories to tell him, 601 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: the dark esque kind of twist. It's either that or 602 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,320 Speaker 1: it just means the whole thing was was a hoax. 603 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: But whatever the case may be, the Smithsonian have no 604 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: record of either g. Ken Ka or his supposed supervisor, 605 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: The professor s A. Jordan's gasp. Yeah, there's no records, 606 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: so that can mean a couple of things. Yeah, Either 607 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 1: it really is an Indiana Jones style explorer, and maybe 608 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: maybe s A Jordan's as pops. We just don't know that. 609 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: Maybe that's his dad, Sean Connery child. Yeah, yeah, he 610 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 1: was kidnapped, told Indiana no but but but really, um, 611 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 1: if we look into it, the Smithsonian spokespeople um have 612 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 1: asserted that quote, no Egyptian artifacts of any kind have 613 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: ever been found in North or South America. Therefore, I 614 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: can tell you that the Smithsonian Institute has never been 615 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: involved in any such excavations. So so our primary source 616 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: here is still just this gazette article, this Arizona Gazette 617 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 1: article that identifies these people with their as having an 618 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,040 Speaker 1: affiliation with the Smithsonian, right, and the later series of 619 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,839 Speaker 1: articles they published because ge Kincaid for a guy who 620 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 1: doesn't exist, went on a couple of adventures. But I mean, 621 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,479 Speaker 1: we know, you know, journalists get stuff wrong, but that's 622 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: that's a that's a doozy to get that kind of 623 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,359 Speaker 1: that level of attribution completely wrong, don't you think. Yeah, 624 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: And so just to go back, either they did get 625 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: some attribution wrong or this these two guys got wiped 626 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:25,840 Speaker 1: out of the record for some reason, or they didn't exist. 627 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: Maybe it was a back to the future type scenario 628 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,759 Speaker 1: where they were sort of ghosted out of existence by 629 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 1: their actions in the ghost tunnels. We do know that 630 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: we've run into this in the past. We do know 631 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 1: that there have multiple beliefs or theories that paint the 632 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:50,280 Speaker 1: Smithsonian Institution as villainous, like they're stealing ancient or regular 633 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 1: skeletons and hoarding them for some reason and then denying 634 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: their existence and then just not telling anyone. That's interesting. 635 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 1: Lots of other ancient to human artifacts that are allegedly 636 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,319 Speaker 1: being you know kept. Yeah, and to be like kind 637 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: of like the first game in town as far as 638 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 1: like cataloging and getting all of this very priceless stuff. 639 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: You know, some corners got cut and some people probably 640 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,319 Speaker 1: did some things they weren't proud of. I don't know. 641 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 1: I would never accuse of the Smithsonian of doing anything 642 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: like that. Don't at least for this episode. Yeah, I 643 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: hope you know what, if someone from the Smithsonian is 644 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,760 Speaker 1: listening and there is any sand to that, yes, please 645 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: come at me. I want that to be true. I 646 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 1: don't think it is. I just personally I I have 647 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: a really tough time believing that the Smithsonian is up 648 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 1: to something villainous. But I do completely agree with Knowle's 649 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: point that in the past they probably did some stuff. 650 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: That's all I meant. Yeah, I mean the Smithsonian is 651 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 1: a is a is a storied history, and and the 652 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: stuff that they have that that they have preserved, it's 653 00:39:58,560 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: around and you can see and there are many mus 654 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: ems and publications. It's all priceless to you know, human 655 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,720 Speaker 1: culture and civilization and the preservation of all that stuff. 656 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: But you know, the wild West man, when you're like 657 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,359 Speaker 1: going on these expeditions and sending out scouts and all 658 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 1: the stuff, who knows what what what goes down in 659 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: the wilderness, And they hadn't dealt with the ethics of 660 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,439 Speaker 1: taking things from other cultures, right, And that's still sort 661 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,800 Speaker 1: of a problem. But we that's still a huge problem. 662 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,359 Speaker 1: That's sort of a problem. But we do know that 663 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: the Smithsonian has done amazing work preserving culture as well. 664 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely. And I'm being completely facetious about saying the 665 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: Smithsonian is gonna come get me. No one ever expects 666 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 1: the Smithsonian. That's very true. But let's get back to 667 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: the article itself and just discuss if you're gonna post 668 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 1: something in an Arizona Gazette, you're gonna publish a story. Um, 669 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: as a reader reading that, UM, you're not exactly going 670 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: to have the time or perhaps the money, as we 671 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: spoke before, UM, to go an independently very verify what's 672 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: being said in the story to fact check it, especially 673 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 1: in yeah nineteen o nine. Come on, um, you you know, 674 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: think about how inconvenient that would be for you. If 675 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: you're just, um, Matt Frederick reading the Arizona Gazette, just 676 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,839 Speaker 1: opening up on the Sunday morning and going, oh, well, 677 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: look at this incredible you'd most likely write a letter 678 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 1: to the editor if you wrote to anyone. So we 679 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 1: can imagine the Gazette received a ton of inquiries about 680 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:33,280 Speaker 1: this information. But we have to ask ourselves what happened, 681 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: right If if the Grand Canyon is such a popular 682 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: site now, as we said at the top of the show, 683 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 1: over four million visitors a year, and if it's been 684 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:49,799 Speaker 1: extensively covered by surveillance, right in terms of scouts going 685 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:55,919 Speaker 1: out physically, park rangers, GPS, satellite imagery, if there's something there. 686 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 1: How is it still hidden? Is this hidden history? We're hopeless? 687 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,879 Speaker 1: Hoax is a very illiterate day. The host of Skeptoid, 688 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,880 Speaker 1: which is a great podcast, Brian Dunning, summed it up 689 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: as such, quote, these stories were not just isolated pranks 690 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: or whimsies in regional newspapers, not even fads or trends. 691 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: But we're emblematic of much broader cultural currents. The American 692 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 1: Romanticism and Transcendentalism movements were at full bore, rejecting the 693 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 1: corruption of modern society and yearning for the perceived purity 694 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 1: of ancient Eastern cultures, of which Egyptian and Tibetan were 695 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: among the most revered. Makes a lot of sense. So 696 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 1: how to get into paper? How how did pass muster? 697 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 1: You know some just one person as editors, yes or no, 698 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,239 Speaker 1: some hippie. We gotta get readership up, guys. It's first 699 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 1: quarter nineteen o nine papers. They aren't getting bought as 700 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,239 Speaker 1: much anymore. People are buying them for that dime over 701 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,400 Speaker 1: in the diner. We gotta get more readership. Put that 702 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 1: put that Grand Canyon story page one. Yeah, nobody wants 703 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,800 Speaker 1: to lose out to the tombstone. Pick a une main rival. 704 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,759 Speaker 1: I made that up. But there are people who will 705 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,200 Speaker 1: tell you that there is a cover up a foot, 706 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:18,800 Speaker 1: particularly writer known as John Rhodes, known as John Rhodes 707 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 1: because that's his name, not to be cryptic about it. Uh. 708 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 1: He claims to know the exact location of the caverns 709 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 1: and the site is guarded today, according to him, by 710 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:29,880 Speaker 1: a loan soldier carrying an M sixteen, and that the 711 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,400 Speaker 1: caverns are actually a museum for the shadowy cabal that 712 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:39,959 Speaker 1: runs civilization. So okay, it's a bit of a fringe writer, 713 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,880 Speaker 1: say right, yeah, just let's just quickly talk about John Rhodes. Um, 714 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 1: if you go to the website reptoids dot com, that 715 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,400 Speaker 1: is where he does a lot of his writing. Um, 716 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,360 Speaker 1: you know, it's a it's a person who's doing a 717 00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,359 Speaker 1: lot of research and has an outlet to to write 718 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 1: about it and has some very interesting ideas. I have 719 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 1: not spoken to him. But here's the thing. I have 720 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,440 Speaker 1: not been able to locate this any quote that is 721 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 1: close to what is being said here because that that 722 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,359 Speaker 1: what Ben just read was from a Gizmoto article. And 723 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 1: again I cannot verify independently that he said anything about 724 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,280 Speaker 1: shadowy elites and caverns and a lone M sixteen carrying 725 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,440 Speaker 1: guy that guards it. But wow, that's a cool idea. 726 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 1: And where are you telling me earlier that David Ike 727 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 1: has a connection with this? Yeah, the book that you 728 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:41,399 Speaker 1: put on our instagram, ben uh the biggest secret then, 729 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: I think guest book that was written by Mr Ike. 730 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 1: It connects the Grand Canyon discovery, specifically this one the 731 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:55,359 Speaker 1: Concaid discovery with the Reptilian overlords. Like we were talking 732 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,320 Speaker 1: in the beginning, like perhaps this is where they started 733 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,400 Speaker 1: or one of the places where they land ended, or 734 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: one of the places where they arose from. Yeah, and 735 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 1: you can see this um the connective tissue of these 736 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 1: various fringe theories stretching out right in either direction. And 737 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,600 Speaker 1: with that, we do have to say that at this 738 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,359 Speaker 1: point it does not seem as though there is some 739 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:24,040 Speaker 1: sort of non Native American law civilization in the Grand Canyon, 740 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,319 Speaker 1: unless it is being so well covered up and protected 741 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,400 Speaker 1: that we just don't know about it. But why maybe 742 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 1: it's like a place to worship the lower Ones. My 743 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,239 Speaker 1: favorite tidbit and all of this is the idea of 744 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:43,600 Speaker 1: the Grand Canyon being this gateway into the underworld. That 745 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:49,280 Speaker 1: fascinates me and captivates me more than the hidden civilization stuff. Personally, 746 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 1: I'm really into this idea of a shadow museum, like 747 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:56,040 Speaker 1: a top secret evil museum. I want to go. I mean, 748 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,160 Speaker 1: I guess if there's not one like that already, I'll 749 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:02,799 Speaker 1: just eventually build one, right, someone should. So we do 750 00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:07,239 Speaker 1: know that the odds are right now that there isn't 751 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,360 Speaker 1: some sort of lost civilization, at least in the Grand Canyon. However, 752 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:14,000 Speaker 1: these rumors, these hoaxes, these beliefs, do not come out 753 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 1: of thin air. In the modern era, our species has 754 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:21,000 Speaker 1: discovered cave dwellings that radically redefine what we thought we 755 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:24,840 Speaker 1: knew about the course of humanity. Here, I'm thinking specifically 756 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:31,799 Speaker 1: of uh, go Backley, the Turkish cavern system. Yes, oh man, 757 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,680 Speaker 1: that really uh changed things there there, Like you said, 758 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,279 Speaker 1: been They've been numerous versions of this. Even if you 759 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: look at some of the cave paintings that we've discovered 760 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,319 Speaker 1: over the years, you discover you realize that humans have 761 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,360 Speaker 1: been around for much longer in places that we didn't 762 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:50,319 Speaker 1: think they existed at the time. Right and for in 763 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:54,720 Speaker 1: the case of go Backley Tepe, Uh, it wasn't even 764 00:46:54,760 --> 00:47:00,200 Speaker 1: excavated until starting in the nineteen nineties and people where 765 00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:04,320 Speaker 1: they're from the tenth to eighth millennium BC. So there 766 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 1: are still things out there in the ground waiting to 767 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,960 Speaker 1: be found. And we've talked before about the technology that 768 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,000 Speaker 1: is aiding in the search, and we also talked just 769 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:19,279 Speaker 1: a little bit about this is a wild theory, but 770 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:24,320 Speaker 1: it's completely plausible about how some countries don't want old 771 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:29,080 Speaker 1: sites to be found because then they're responsible for preserving them, 772 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:33,399 Speaker 1: reconstructing them, guarding them, and it's a huge drain, could 773 00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,440 Speaker 1: be a drag even like uh, those inn Esco heritage 774 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 1: sites and things like that that can be um prohibitively 775 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,920 Speaker 1: expensive for places that don't have a whole heck of 776 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,719 Speaker 1: a lot of money. Yeah, unless you're talking about NGEO 777 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,239 Speaker 1: or a nonprofit or something, you're going to spend tax 778 00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:53,200 Speaker 1: dollars on that. And also, the majority of the time 779 00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:57,560 Speaker 1: that someone rediscovers an ancient site, uh, they've put a 780 00:47:57,600 --> 00:47:59,759 Speaker 1: lot of work in and I'm not dinging the people 781 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: with on this work, but the majority of the time 782 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,279 Speaker 1: what we see is that native populations are people who 783 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 1: have lived in the area for a long time. We're 784 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:12,680 Speaker 1: already somewhat aware of something. You know, So we know 785 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,760 Speaker 1: that in our lifetimes and probably the next few years, 786 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,080 Speaker 1: they are going to be more discoveries. We don't know 787 00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,480 Speaker 1: exactly what or where they will be, but we do 788 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,000 Speaker 1: have questions for you. Do you think there's any kind 789 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 1: of significant undiscovered ruins or structures that exist deep in 790 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,080 Speaker 1: the Grand Canyon? Somewhere maybe in the middle of the 791 00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 1: canyon about half a mile down, there's an cave entrance 792 00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,680 Speaker 1: that's extremely hard to get to. Do you think that 793 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,799 Speaker 1: exists right to us? And where in the US have 794 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:48,760 Speaker 1: you heard of other alleged sites of law civilizations? Speaking 795 00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,239 Speaker 1: of you? That reminds us it's time for at conners. 796 00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,480 Speaker 1: Our first shout out comes from Kathy. Cathy says, how 797 00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,719 Speaker 1: about looking into what is being labeled the Bama boom. 798 00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,399 Speaker 1: It is occurring in other locations as well. The ones 799 00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,880 Speaker 1: located around Alabama are just getting some of the best coverage. Thanks. 800 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,120 Speaker 1: And this is another one of those things where it's 801 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:13,200 Speaker 1: a mysterious sound. In this case, it is literally a boom. 802 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,000 Speaker 1: And you can find a Fox News article that discusses 803 00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,319 Speaker 1: this mysterious boom that jolted part of the state and 804 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,720 Speaker 1: apparently it's happened more than once. Um. In this case, 805 00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,320 Speaker 1: evidence pointed to a sonic boom from either an aircraft 806 00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,880 Speaker 1: that was flying overhead or meteor uh, some kind of 807 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:35,000 Speaker 1: explosion in the air. Also a delicious fruit flavored malt beverage. Yeah, 808 00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:39,160 Speaker 1: mahama boom. Let's let's look into this. Thank you for writing, Kathy. 809 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,239 Speaker 1: We also have a message from Narrison I hope I'm 810 00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,319 Speaker 1: pronouncing your name correctly, who says, f y I head 811 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,520 Speaker 1: rest in your car are mad to have pointed tips 812 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,359 Speaker 1: to break windows in case you're stuck or submerged with 813 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,800 Speaker 1: windows closed, And then he followed up, yeah, he followed 814 00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,080 Speaker 1: up saying it looks like that was an internet myth. 815 00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:58,759 Speaker 1: Sorry for the misinformation. Fell into the conspiracy myself, but 816 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,520 Speaker 1: I saw this, and they are the little kind of 817 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:03,239 Speaker 1: pointy parts that go into the seat where you can 818 00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:05,400 Speaker 1: pull the head rest off. The ends of them are 819 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,200 Speaker 1: shapes very similarly to the kind of tool you would 820 00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:11,040 Speaker 1: use to break a window. So whether or not it's intentional, 821 00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,600 Speaker 1: and I certainly think you could use that to break 822 00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,040 Speaker 1: a window possibly, I think the problem is when you 823 00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:20,720 Speaker 1: are trying to hold that headdressed and then hit the window. 824 00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:22,720 Speaker 1: I think maybe there's a problem they're in there. Two. 825 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,680 Speaker 1: So your decreer like having the amount of impact, want 826 00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:27,239 Speaker 1: the focus to be on a single point with one 827 00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:29,399 Speaker 1: of those little hammers or whatever. There's also a cool 828 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,600 Speaker 1: trick that you, well, you probably never do it, but 829 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,040 Speaker 1: it's possible to break a window just using the resonance 830 00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,640 Speaker 1: of a soft touch in a pattern. We're singing a 831 00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:40,600 Speaker 1: particularly high note right, which is far out of my range. 832 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:43,839 Speaker 1: We have one more shut up. This one comes from 833 00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,839 Speaker 1: Lena on Twitter tweets at as if you dudes are 834 00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:51,200 Speaker 1: ready to start an adult Triple X space camp, I'm 835 00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,799 Speaker 1: in and I probably know other triple X ladies who 836 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,840 Speaker 1: are super interested as well. What does triple X stand for? 837 00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,880 Speaker 1: Is it? Well, is it like the alcohol thing' it's 838 00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:06,040 Speaker 1: it's it's it's on my Alabama Canabama, Bama boom. And 839 00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,719 Speaker 1: the the X does We talked about this in an 840 00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:10,719 Speaker 1: interview with like A Yates. The X does indicate the 841 00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,120 Speaker 1: number of times something has been distilled. Okay, yeah, exactly, 842 00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:18,200 Speaker 1: super potners, so so A I guess just highly refined. 843 00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,800 Speaker 1: Lena is talking about a highly refined space camp for adults. Okay, 844 00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,560 Speaker 1: that's cool. I'm done with that, and thank you Lena 845 00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:31,480 Speaker 1: Nerrison and Cathy. This concludes our but not our show. 846 00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,200 Speaker 1: Noel Matt, super producer, Paul and I will be back 847 00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:37,680 Speaker 1: very soon. In the meantime, you can find us on Instagram. 848 00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:39,480 Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter. You can find us 849 00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:42,920 Speaker 1: on Facebook. That's the other one. Facebook, were conspiracy stuff 850 00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,239 Speaker 1: on all of those butt Instagram at which we are 851 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,200 Speaker 1: conspiracy stuff show. Yeah, And if you don't want to 852 00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:49,520 Speaker 1: do any of that stuff, you don't want to find 853 00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,839 Speaker 1: us on social media, you don't care what we look like, 854 00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:56,000 Speaker 1: you can just send us an email. We are conspiracy 855 00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:17,160 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com.