1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: You're listening to Law and Order Criminal Justice System, a 2 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:10,039 Speaker 1: production of Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts. 3 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 2: In the Criminal Justice System, landmark trials transcend the courtroom 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 2: to reshape the law. The brave man and women who 5 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 2: investigate and prosecute these cases are part of a select 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 2: group that is defined American history. These are their stories. 7 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 2: March nineteen eighty three, Salvator Avellino's Jaguar, New York City. 8 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: Lu Casey Mobster's Salvator Avellino and Tony Dux Carala are 9 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: inside Avellino's car discussing the new book written by former 10 00:00:53,560 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: boss Joe Banana. Both men are incensed Banano has openly 11 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: revealed the inner workings of his former crime family and 12 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: in turn, the mob as a whole. They think he's 13 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: fishing for a movie deal and some fast cash. I 14 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: know that, But then they talk about something that troubles 15 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: them even more. The book admits to the existence of 16 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: the Commission, that there is a governing body overseeing all 17 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: the families. No Mafia member has ever said this before publicly, Obedien. 18 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: The two men also talk about another crime boss who's 19 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: becoming a problem. They hint at their possible response, something drastic, something. 20 00:01:54,960 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 3: Violent than some example other people like they talk a lot. 21 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 4: That's why going to fall. 22 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: What Avelino and Corlu didn't know was that their conversations 23 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: were being recorded a hidden microphone had been secretly planted 24 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: by law enforcement. The audio clips you just heard, though 25 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:34,679 Speaker 1: at times hard to decipher, capture their every word. You're 26 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: not with the mob because you want to be. 27 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 5: It's the gangster that decides whether you're his associated on. 28 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: If you like your life, you will vote to acquit. 29 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: I'm Anisee and Nicolazzi, my father should have been a 30 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: dead man from Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcasts. This is 31 00:02:53,400 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: Law and Order Criminal justice system. By the late seventies 32 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: and early eighties, the FBI was deploying an array of 33 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: resources to gain the upper hand against the mob. They 34 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: created specialized task forces, targeted mafia leadership, and even bugged 35 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: the homes of mob members, but it continued to be 36 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: an uphill battle. The mafia's coat of silence protected the 37 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: bosses who sat at the top calling the shots, and 38 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: the heads of the families were more than willing to 39 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: sacrifice a few pawns so long as their business kept booming. 40 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: The Commission's priority keep the peace, keep the throne. But 41 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: little did they know there was a new strategy brewing 42 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: within law enforcement, and it had less to do with 43 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: how to catch criminals and more to do with how 44 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: to prosecute them. And by the dawn of the new decade, 45 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: the tides were beginning to turn. As the FBI was 46 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: secretly blitzing the families with bugs and wire caps. The 47 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: State of New York was assembling it its own task 48 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: force and it was led by a former prosecutor with 49 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: a fresh plan to dismantle the. 50 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:11,559 Speaker 4: Mom formerly Ronald Goldstock, but Ron Goldstock for our purposes 51 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 4: and I was the director of the New York State 52 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 4: Organized Crime Task Force. Our jurisdiction was the investigation of 53 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 4: multi county organized crime. 54 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 1: Bad news for Kosa Nostra. They were about to be 55 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: flanked from all sides FBI, NYPD and now New York State. 56 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 4: We also had a fabulous tech unit to install taps 57 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 4: and bugs, and it was a unit that was, as 58 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 4: far as I know, better than anything else in the state. 59 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: Even with less than one hundred employees on the payroll, 60 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: Ron's team did have a notable advantage over the FBI. 61 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 4: We were very nimble. If you went to the Organized 62 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 4: Crime Task Force as a whole, so we need a 63 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 4: wire tap, we would do it in a day. As 64 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 4: a result, we became very popular. We were competitioned. To 65 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 4: the FBI, the. 66 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: Rules of economics applied. When more than one service is 67 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: available in a given market, the quality of that service 68 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: tends to improve. 69 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 4: It is the competition that breeds innovation, that breeds change, 70 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 4: that breeds experimentation. The assistant director of the FBI said, 71 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 4: you are like a vanguard. You can move quickly where 72 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,919 Speaker 4: like a battleship. It takes us forever to turn the 73 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 4: ship around, but once we get where we're going, we 74 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 4: can knock out anybody in sight. And I think that 75 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 4: was a pretty accurate description of both US and the Bureau. 76 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: And he had his work cut out for him. As 77 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: Ron put it, law enforcement hadn't been able to accomplish 78 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: much against the mob. 79 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 4: Organized crime was in its heyday. There were very few 80 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 4: prosecutions that led to significant convictions of groups of individuals. 81 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 4: At the time, you still had a mob that could 82 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 4: replace people who had been taken out by prosecutions or 83 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 4: through death. 84 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: But what was now being captured on recordings started to 85 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: change it all. You could sense that momentum was starting 86 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: to shift in law enforcement's favor. 87 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 4: The FBI began to use electronic surveillance to investigate the MOB, 88 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 4: and they began to learn through the taps and bugs 89 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 4: they had put in a great deal about the mob's structure. 90 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: That deeper understanding of mob hierarchy and the web of 91 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 1: loyalties and rivalries that ran through it would definitely come 92 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: in handy, especially when it came time to prosecute. It 93 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: was hard, dangerous work, but they were the best of 94 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: the best. Here again is former Special Agent Joe Cantamasa, 95 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: the FBI's undercover phone man. 96 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 5: You had to be capable, confident, and dedicated to the mission. 97 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 5: We had ninety nine percent success rate. 98 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: However, being one of the most in demand black bag 99 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: men came with a major pitfall, the toll on his 100 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: personal life. 101 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 5: There was just non stop work at the busy time. 102 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 5: We could do three entries in one night. For the 103 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 5: two years eighty two eighty three, I worked literally one 104 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 5: hundred hours a week, so I was generally not around. 105 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 5: I was divorced and my mother spent most of the 106 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 5: time taking care of my daughter. When I was just 107 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 5: not there. 108 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: On top of all that was a frustration. He couldn't 109 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: escape that for every low level soldier you put away, 110 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: there was another to take his place. But here's the thing. 111 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: As Ages placed the bugs and listened to hours upon 112 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: hours of recordings, they had no idea the gold mine 113 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: they had uncovered. These tapes, instead of being scattered across 114 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: various case like before, were about to be woven together 115 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: to form the backbone of the Commission case, a landmark 116 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: moment in their investigation. Back in the late sixties, G 117 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: Robert Blakey was a law professor at Notre Dame. He 118 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: had been warning the government for years about the need 119 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: to pivot how they went after organized crime. Here's Ron 120 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: Goldstock on the man once described as the government's canary 121 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: in a coal mine. 122 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 4: Blakey had served in the organized crime section of the 123 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 4: Department of Justice under Robert Kennedy, and he understood what 124 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 4: was needed to deal with the problem of syndicated crime 125 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 4: as opposed to individual crime or small conspiracies. 126 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: And with this new understanding, Blakey got to work. He 127 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: authored many of the electronic surveillance procedures, or title threes 128 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: as they're called, that law enforcement used to this day. 129 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: But Blakey's lasting legacy was his role in creating what 130 00:08:58,960 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: is known as RICA. 131 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 4: In nineteen seventy he did the Organized Crime Control Act, 132 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 4: which provided for RICO, the Racketeer, Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act. 133 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 4: RICO not only allowed you to use the term organized crime, 134 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 4: but in effect required you to. The individual who was 135 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 4: charged had to be part, either employed by, or associated with, 136 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 4: an enterprise, and an enterprise in many organized crime cases 137 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,959 Speaker 4: was either the family or a crew from that family. 138 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: RICO was passed and signed into law by then President 139 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: Richard Nixon. All Blakie had to do next was convinced 140 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: the justice system to adopt it. 141 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 4: I met blake for the first time, probably around nineteen 142 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 4: seventy three, and we became friends, and at some point 143 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 4: he called me he had just gotten a grant to 144 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 4: create an institute on organized Crime at Cornell to train 145 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 4: state and local prosecutors on how to investigate and prosecute 146 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 4: organized crime. And so I left the DA's office, went 147 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 4: to Cornell, and the two of us put together this program. 148 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 4: What we did think was it made sense to bring 149 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 4: federal investigators to the summer sessions that we put on 150 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 4: for a week at Cornell. It was a chance to 151 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 4: keep them in on RICO. Jim Costler from the FBI 152 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 4: came up. Blakey gave that seminal speech that everybody remembers 153 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 4: on RICO not only as a prosecutive tool, but an 154 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 4: investigative tool. That is, you think not of investigating individuals 155 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 4: for the commission of an act, but you think more 156 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 4: broadly of the enterprise. You think of the pattern of 157 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 4: criminal activity rather than individual acts. And the other part 158 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 4: is that the RICO Statute allows for civil and criminal forfeiture. 159 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: Blaky harp on three important methods of investigation. One, don't 160 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: waste time on the level gangsters, instead focus on leadership. 161 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: Two attack them where it hurt the most, go after 162 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: the money. And three more bugs, more wiretaps. It remained 163 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: the single best way around the Mafiast code of silence, and. 164 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 4: Blakie remains to this day the smartest person that I know. 165 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 4: He just saw a different approach was needed and fundamentally 166 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 4: changed the way the criminal justice system dealt with syndicated crime. 167 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 4: And incidentally, it took good investigators like Costler to appreciate 168 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 4: the brilliance of the statute and what it could do. 169 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: After attending the conference and learning about the groundbreaking Rico Statute, 170 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: Jim Costler headed back to New York to get his 171 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: house in order and make Robert Blake's dream come true. 172 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 6: The day we were leaving, he came up to the 173 00:11:57,920 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 6: car or I was sitting in the car and he says, 174 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 6: you know, he said, I dream of the day that 175 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 6: you guys put all the busses of the families in 176 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 6: jail in one place. And I said, good luck with that. 177 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 6: But it actually happened. 178 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: After decades of chasing thugs, setting up stings, and rounding 179 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: up low level soldiers, it took a law professor to 180 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: finally discover the answer. And could you have done it 181 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: without the Rico Statute. 182 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 6: No way. The Rico Statute brought in all the crimes 183 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 6: that we didn't have jurisdiction over. It gave us all 184 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 6: kinds of ability to use the wiretaps and microphones that 185 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 6: we didn't have before. 186 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty, as the new Organized Crime supervisor of 187 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: New York, Jim quickly pinpointed the bureau's fundamental problem. Agents 188 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: were working independently investigating single acts and single people, but 189 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: they weren't connecting the parts to the whole. 190 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 6: We were putting people in jail. We weren't solving the problem. 191 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 6: So basically, when I became a supervisor, I threw out 192 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 6: the code or the rule book on how agents that 193 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 6: I worked for me worked together. They worked as a team, 194 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 6: sometimes five or six working on a particular project, sometimes 195 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 6: ten guys working on a particular project, with one agent 196 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 6: in the lead and me watching over everybody. 197 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: It was pure poetry. Jim would run his teams like 198 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 1: a mafia captain ran his crew of soldiers. 199 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 6: The problem in New York was that we had three 200 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 6: different groups of agents working organized crime in three locations, 201 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 6: and sometimes they would all be investigating the same people. 202 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 6: It made no sense. So I basically said, this is 203 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 6: what's going to be. These people up here. They'll have 204 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 6: the Genoviees family, the people over here, the Lukes people 205 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 6: over here, that cam Be and and so forth. So 206 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 6: anything that came in for those particular families would go 207 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 6: to that squad, and that way you would streamline the 208 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:10,199 Speaker 6: flow of information. 209 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: Now he had separate squads to mirror the various families, 210 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: and as the investigations progressed, he soon realized that each 211 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: of his squads held important pieces to this interconnected puzzle. 212 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 6: Sharing of the information was so important to our success. 213 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 6: Sometimes I would get information to come to me from 214 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 6: the Luksey squad and I had already seen something that 215 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 6: came similar to that from the Genevies squad, and I'd say, hey, listen, 216 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 6: you guys got to get together and share this information 217 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 6: because both of you have it, but you don't know it. 218 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 6: And I would have meetings every Thursday. Every Thursday morning, 219 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 6: I had all the supervisors come in and bring their 220 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 6: agents so that we all knew what each others was doing. 221 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 6: And from that point on we were off and running. 222 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: It was time to go full tilt with the bug. 223 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: They knew just where to start. The Palma Boys Social 224 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: Club was the East Harlem headquarters of Genevi's boss, Fat 225 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: Tony Sealerno with his black bag expertise. Special agent Joe 226 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: Cantamasa was once again the FBI's man on the inside. 227 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: But infiltrating the club would be no easy task. 228 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 5: It had two padlocks on it and the steel gate 229 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 5: you couldn't move in an inch without screeching, and it 230 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 5: was very loud and very noisy. 231 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: But being a native New Yorker, Joe had some pretty 232 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: good ideas how to avoid detection. 233 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 5: The night we were going to do the entry, it 234 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 5: was raining. We had already lined up the noisiest garbage 235 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 5: truck in the New York Department of Sanitation's fleet, so 236 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 5: we were ready to have noise cover. Everything is good 237 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 5: to go. One of the issues with lots of places 238 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 5: in Manhattan were street lights. Now I can remember sitting 239 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 5: a couple of doors down waiting for the agent's name 240 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 5: was Jim Curry to go over to the pedestal and 241 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 5: turn off the street light. 242 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: A pedestal is a metal box that houses breaker switches 243 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: and controls for the street lights. 244 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 5: I'm sitting there for an hour or more and all 245 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 5: I'm watching on the street in front of the place 246 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 5: is the rat show. Well, Jim shows up. He gets 247 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 5: to the pedestal. It doesn't even have a door on 248 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 5: it like it's supposed to, but there's rats all over 249 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 5: the place, and he decides he's not reaching in there 250 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 5: to do anything. He pulls the wires out with his 251 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 5: flyers and just cuts something. And the next thing I 252 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 5: see is sparks flying out of the pedestal. I'm thinking, 253 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 5: oh jeez, but the light goes out. Next thing happens, 254 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 5: we're ready to go. We quietly operate the locks. We're 255 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 5: ready to do the roll up now, so we call 256 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 5: for the garbage truck. It's white like New York City 257 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 5: Sanitation was at the time, pulls down to the corner, 258 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 5: starts operating the diesel at high rev starts operating the hydraulics. 259 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 5: If we were standing six inches apart, you couldn't hear 260 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 5: me speak. That's how noisy it was. 261 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: And then the beauty of teamwork. Joe surveillance team had 262 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: previously let them know that every time the last guy 263 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: came out to close the gate for the night, he 264 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: first looked down to the ground. 265 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 5: The roll ups up, we call a time out. We 266 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 5: looked down the bottom of the door to find out 267 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 5: is there a lock down there that we couldn't see. 268 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 5: And there's a piece of thread across the bottom of 269 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 5: the door between the door and the door jam. 270 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: A nearly undetectable piece of security that would have foiled 271 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: the operation had it gone unnoticed. 272 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 5: If you didn't put that thread back when you were done, 273 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 5: you were in big trouble, which meant somebody had been 274 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 5: in there other than you who locked it up the 275 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 5: night before, so we see that, we know what it is. 276 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 5: We save it. We get inside and there's a school 277 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 5: of thread on the counter, so at least we didn't 278 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 5: have to relock the old thread to put it back. 279 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 5: When we left. 280 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: Inside the club, they got to work installing a microphone 281 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 1: and running the connection to a terminal in the club's basement. 282 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,479 Speaker 5: There's rats all over the place, but fortunately they are 283 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 5: happy to leave when you shine lights on them and 284 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 5: make noise. That microphone worked well. 285 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: But not every operation went so smoothly. 286 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 5: Probably the most difficult installation of my daytime scenarios happened 287 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 5: to be the Castellano installation. 288 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: As in Paul Castellano, head of the Gambino family. He 289 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 1: was suspected of ordering a multitude of hits from his 290 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: lavish mansion on Staten Island. It wasn't a stretch of 291 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: the imagine nation to think he may have been one 292 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: of the bosses involved in Carmen Galanti's murder. But overall, 293 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: there was more than enough cause to get a listening 294 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: device inside. 295 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 5: Now we had a monitoring plant set up on a 296 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 5: different block near the house. 297 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 1: They learned that the notoriously careful and reclusive boss never 298 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 1: talked business over the phone, so Joe would have to 299 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: plant a bug inside the house. Their first attempt involved 300 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: trying to get Castellanos made Gloria to. 301 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 5: Help with the entry, and they decided early on to 302 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 5: approach Gloria's family in Bogatah and offer them twenty thousand 303 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 5: dollars if they could get Gloria to leave the door 304 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 5: open when they went food shopping, and lo and behold, 305 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 5: the next day they hear, quote, the FBI is trying 306 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 5: to get into your house. Unquote. We were not going 307 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 5: to get Gloria help, and she must have told Paul, 308 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 5: and it came back to me that that wasn't going 309 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 5: to work. And that's when I said, Okay, you know, 310 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 5: I'll figure something else out. 311 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: Plan B posing as a cable repairman to install a 312 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:22,959 Speaker 1: hidden microphone while Castellano's bodyguard shadowed his every move and 313 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: that house was never empty, so Joe would need to 314 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: install the microphone during the day while the Gambino boss 315 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: and his associates were there, so he created a reason 316 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: for a repairman to be called. 317 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,719 Speaker 5: Cable boxes were very new back then. That's the scenario 318 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 5: that I used. I created a problem for them. That 319 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 5: was coordinated and introduced by another agent on another pole 320 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 5: down the block. 321 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 1: Joe's agent scrambled the cable signal from the telephone pole 322 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: and when they called for a repairman, they intercepted it, so. 323 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 5: He was there when I got there, and then he's 324 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 5: out of sight. And then Tommy Belotti and another older 325 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,199 Speaker 5: gentleman who I did not know, they're watching me and 326 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 5: they're walking me through the house to see if I 327 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 5: can identify the problem. 328 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: Do you feel that suspicion? 329 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 3: Oh? 330 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:17,360 Speaker 5: Absolutely, watching me. 331 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: With Bollotti and another mobster keeping eyes on him. Joe 332 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: identified the cable box, and with his agent's help from 333 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: a block away, they replicated the problem that had gotten 334 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: him into the house initially. 335 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 5: And on my keywords, he would create the problem that 336 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 5: they were having, and we got to associate the problem 337 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 5: that they thought they had with the particular area of 338 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 5: the house that I wanted to put the mic in. 339 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: Connecting the microphone was going to be much harder than 340 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: Joe initially thought. 341 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 5: The reason that it was so difficult is in order 342 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 5: to get this connection done, the wire that I needed 343 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 5: to get connected to to replace the device that had 344 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 5: the microphone in it was actually custom installed into a 345 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 5: kitchen countertop and cabinet. 346 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: Once again, time for Joe to use his magic get 347 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: the targets to help seal their own fate. 348 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 5: And so we had this adversarial exchange. I maintained my 349 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 5: bad New York attitude to fit the occasion, and I said, listen, 350 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 5: if we're going to do this, you've got to help 351 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 5: me take this thing apart. 352 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 1: And they did, and. 353 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 5: We literally disassembled part of a kitchen counter cabinet in 354 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 5: order to get access to the connector for me to 355 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 5: replace this equipment. And part of my scenario for how 356 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 5: I do this is I teach them along the way. 357 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 5: I explain what I'm doing. I'm not doing this in silence. 358 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 5: I'm helping them understand the approach. 359 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: And you're actually planting a microphone at the same. 360 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 5: Time, exactly Well, if you had the microphone in your hand, 361 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 5: you wouldn't know you had a microphone in your hand. 362 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 5: So we had pretty good concealment options back then. 363 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: Needless to say, these were high risk, high reward situations, 364 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: but you never know what might be the key to 365 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: breaking a case. So they came up with more creative 366 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: ways to gather intel, including one place mobsters least expected 367 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: to be bugged their cars and over at the New 368 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: York Organized Crime Task Force, Ron Goldstock was about to 369 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: strike gold in the form of a glistening black nineteen 370 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: eighty two Jaguar. It was owned by a captain in 371 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: the Lucazy crime family, sal Avelino. Avelina was also the 372 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:49,719 Speaker 1: chauffeur to Lucasey boss Tony dux Carllo. Gold Stock suspected 373 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: that sneaking a bug into the Jaguar would deliver priceless intel, 374 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: but it wouldn't be easy. 375 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 4: Our tech team, which as I said, was just exceptionally good, 376 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 4: got a similar Jaguar and then practiced. They had to 377 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 4: first figure out how to attach the bug to the 378 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 4: battery without draining the battery. Then they had to locate 379 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 4: where the bug was going to be so that there 380 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 4: was an ambient noise that would interfere with the clarity 381 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 4: of their recordings. And once they did that, they had 382 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 4: to be able to do it very quickly, because they 383 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 4: wanted to do it in the shortest time possible. Once 384 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 4: they knew it, they took the car apart, put it 385 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,880 Speaker 4: back together again, and then began with a stopwatch. They 386 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 4: still had to pull off the whole front part of 387 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 4: the inside the dish and install it and prop it 388 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 4: put it back together again. At the end they knew 389 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 4: that it was the fastest they could do it. 390 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: Then the team just had to watch and wait for 391 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: the perfect moment to make their move. 392 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 4: It was installed when Avelino was going to a location 393 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 4: in Huntington. 394 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,919 Speaker 1: I believe it was the Huntington Townhouse because when I 395 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: saw that reading, I was like, I think I had 396 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:11,719 Speaker 1: my senior prompt. 397 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 4: Well, not sure. It may have been your senior problem. 398 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 4: And he was invited, but in any events, he parked 399 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 4: his car in the lot, and fortunately for us, he 400 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 4: had gotten there late, so there was only parking away 401 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 4: from the location. One problem was it started to rain, 402 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,360 Speaker 4: not very heavy, but enough so that we would concern 403 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,239 Speaker 4: that there would be water in the car. But the 404 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 4: tech team was all set. They had tarps plastic to 405 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 4: put over it. They saw him pull in, He went 406 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 4: to the townhouse, They went to the car, they got in, 407 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 4: picked the lock, they took out the tarps and the plastic. 408 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 4: They entered the car, did their stop watch things, installed 409 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 4: the bug, and then they were out. 410 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: But the team's job was far from over because to 411 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: record from the Jaguar bug you also had to follow it. 412 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 4: This was not a recording device, this was a transmitter. 413 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 4: If you had a car behind following, particularly a van, 414 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 4: where you were recording the conversations, because you had to 415 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 4: have the equipment, it would be seen. So we set 416 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 4: up chase cars with repeaters. There were three or four 417 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 4: chase cars, all different. One would follow for a while 418 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 4: and the repeater would throw the signal back to the 419 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 4: van out of sight of the Jaguar, which would then 420 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 4: record the conversation. And then the chase car would drop 421 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 4: off and another one would pick up and it would 422 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 4: repeat the signal. And this went on day after day. 423 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 4: In fact, the people in the van used to sing 424 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 4: the song We're watching you. Wherever you go, whatever you do, 425 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 4: we will be watching you. That became their theme song. 426 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: With the chase cars in pursuit and the bug successfully 427 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: transmitting Avelino and Carlo's exchanges were recorded and the results 428 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: were instantaneous. 429 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 4: Within a day. It's just what you want, Tony Ducks. 430 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 4: Corlo was in the car with Avellino. Coralo was the 431 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 4: grumpiest person, just constantly griping and grumping about everything that occurred, 432 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 4: and yeah, these people are following me all the time. Now, 433 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 4: he had no idea. 434 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 6: That we were. 435 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 4: So Avelino says, well, yeah, but you know you're the 436 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 4: boss of the family, so of course they're going to 437 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 4: be following you. And he says, yeah, I am the 438 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 4: boss of the family. 439 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: So I just picture of him sanway did he just 440 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: actually say yeah. 441 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, That's why I said it was funny. Within 442 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,360 Speaker 4: the first day or two we had the mob structure. 443 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 4: They would be talking about other people and we could 444 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 4: map out the family. And somehow it got into the 445 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 4: Daily News of the New York Post and they put 446 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 4: in a little org chart of the Lukesy crime family 447 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 4: and Avellino showed it to Corlo, and Corlo turned to him. 448 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 4: He says, you know, for the first time, they got 449 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 4: it right. If you have to prove the existence of 450 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,959 Speaker 4: an enterprise, it was done. 451 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: Rumor and legend were turning into facts and evidence and 452 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: evidence is how you built a winning case. 453 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 4: Our bug was producing incredible conversations about the commission. When 454 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 4: the meetings were where they were what was discussed. 455 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 1: Were those conversations the first pieces of actual evidence of 456 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: the Commission's existence. 457 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 4: There was nothing before it. What we had was proof 458 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 4: beyond the reasonable doubt of the existence of the commission. 459 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 4: These were the seminal conversations in that regard. 460 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: Investigators now had valuable information about the commission, given unintentionally 461 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: by mobsters themselves. Then, to the FBI's amazement, one mafia 462 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: boss was about to give even more, and this time 463 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: they wouldn't need to bug him. He'd willingly share it 464 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: on National TV. 465 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 7: Joseph Banano, for three decades was one of the top 466 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 7: mafia figures in the United States. For more than a 467 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 7: quarter century, he headed the New York organized crime family 468 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 7: that bore his name. Banano, now seventy eight and in 469 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 7: failing health, wanted to tell us that all his life 470 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 7: he has been misunderstood. 471 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes in life, patience and perseverance make all the difference, 472 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: and law enforcement had shown plenty of both. And there 473 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: are also times that you get a gift. It might 474 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: come in the form of a recovered murder weapon, a 475 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: cooperating witness, or in this case, a very public interview 476 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: on sixty minutes. 477 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 3: A man of honor, old man of honor, I was 478 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 3: the most respected man in New York. In Alova, the country. 479 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: In a now famous television interview, a recently retired Joe 480 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: Banano decided to brazenly defy the Justice Department and the mob. 481 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 3: Why you fight for sharvive to protect your life? 482 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 6: Next? 483 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 3: Sure that's you, society. 484 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: Banano appeared to promote his self glorifying memoir, A Man 485 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: of Honor. 486 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 3: I want the more of a respectful way. I wanted 487 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 3: to honorable way all my life. I've been misunderstood. 488 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: But within the very pages of A Man of Honor 489 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: was an unexpected bonus for law enforcement. Joe Banano had 490 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: laid out a blueprint of the Commission, what it did, 491 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: its purpose, its power, and how mob families were organized. 492 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: It was a roadmap to an actual indictment of the 493 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: Commission itself, utilizing all the evidence collected and amassed over 494 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: the years. The only missing link to building the case 495 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: was a hungry prosecutor willing to take on the challenge. 496 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty three, a man was thumbing through Banano's book. 497 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: When he finished, he turned to his assistant and said, 498 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: if Banano can write about a commission, I can indict it. 499 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: That man was a young US attorney named Rudy Giuliani. 500 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 3: The question you here increasingly now is who's Rudolph Juliani 501 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 3: and what does he want? 502 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 6: Well, I'm the United States Attorney and what I want. 503 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 7: Is to be as effective as I can be as 504 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 7: a United States Attorney. 505 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 4: What I say to my students is there's two kinds 506 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 4: of lawyers and the dime a dozen lawyers are those 507 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 4: that you go to you lay something out, and they 508 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 4: can tell you what all the issues are. The good 509 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 4: lawyers are the ones that have a can do personality. 510 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 4: Let's figure out what we want to do and how 511 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 4: we can legally do it and use the law to 512 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 4: back us up rather than stop us. Julianni was that 513 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 4: type of prosecutor. I trusted him. I should say he 514 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 4: was a different person than that he is today. He 515 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 4: was the right person at the right place, at the 516 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 4: right time. I gave Rudy a call and sketched out 517 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 4: for him how we could do the commission as an 518 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 4: enterprise and indict the heads of the five families. He 519 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:07,239 Speaker 4: was ready to go. 520 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 8: You go from Jaegar Hoover referencing that there was no 521 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 8: mafia that was fictitious, It did not exist. Two decades later, 522 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 8: a prominent prosecution not only saying that Klosinostra exists, but 523 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 8: we are identifying and we are going to utilize this 524 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 8: to dismantle organized crime by cutting off its head. I mean, 525 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 8: it was a seismic event in terms of the war 526 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 8: against the mafia. Just absolutely historic. 527 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: The dominoes were falling, leading to a defining moment in 528 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: American history. The Mafia Commission. 529 00:32:52,360 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 2: Case next time on Law and Order Criminal Justice System. 530 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 6: So the threat was, if you don't pay us what 531 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 6: we want, we all shut your job down. 532 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: We all knew that to kill a boss and a 533 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: family you had to have commission approval. 534 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 5: And his idea was we do a case involving the 535 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 5: board of Directors of the American Mafia. 536 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 9: It was an incredible feeling on several levels. Whose bright 537 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 9: idea was that to entrust this case to guys of 538 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 9: this experience level, no matter how confident you may or 539 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 9: may not think they are. 540 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 2: Law and Order Criminal Justice System is a production of 541 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 2: Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts. Our host is Anisega Nicolazi. 542 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 2: This episode was written by Chandler Mays and Anisega Nicolazi. 543 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Dick Wolf, Elliott Wolf and Stephen Michael 544 00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 2: At Wolf Entertainment on behalf of iHeartRadio. Executive produced by 545 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 2: Alex Williams and Matt Frederick, with supervising producers Trevor Young 546 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 2: and Chandler Mays and producers Jesse Funk, Nooms Griffin, and 547 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 2: Rima El Kali. This season is executive produced by Anna 548 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 2: Sega Nicolazzi, story producer Walker Lamond. Our researchers are Carolyn 549 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 2: Talmage and Luke Stents. Editing and sound designed by Jesse Funk, 550 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 2: original music by John O'Hara, original theme by Mike Post, 551 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 2: additional music by Steve Moore, and additional voice over by 552 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 2: me Steve Zernkelton. Special thanks to Fox five in New York, 553 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 2: ABC and CBS for providing archival material for the show. 554 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio and Wolf Entertainment, visit the 555 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 556 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 2: favorite shows. Thanks for listening.