Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the Bob Left Sets podcast. My
Speaker 1: guest this week is producer, star manager executive producer rack
Speaker 1: On Tour the legendary literally Peter Asher. Okay, you grow
Speaker 1: up in a house of overachievers. Your father and mother
Speaker 1: are not, you know, the pedestrian people. No, they were
Speaker 1: both very determined, successful people. It's true. My father was
Speaker 1: a physician and did very well and wrote a lot
Speaker 1: of books and stuff, and it's quite well known in
Speaker 1: the medical field still to this day. And my mother
Speaker 1: was a musician, played the obo and was Obo professor
Speaker 1: at the Royal Academy Music in London. So, and your
Speaker 1: father literally diagnosed certain conditions, well he if you're looking
Speaker 1: up now, the primary and what was his name, His
Speaker 1: name was Richard Ashe and he identified and named Munchausen syndrome.
Speaker 1: And an example of his eccentricity is that, you know,
Speaker 1: usually and doctors identified disease, they name it after themselves. True,
Speaker 1: with Munchausen syndrome you get people going. But who was
Speaker 1: Dr muncha and explained for my audience what that is. Well,
Speaker 1: it's the it's the illness you probably have heard of
Speaker 1: where people make up diseases that they've have had. It's
Speaker 1: not just like lingering or it's when you you actually
Speaker 1: enjoy the process of being examined by doctors and being
Speaker 1: the center of attention in that way. Um, so they
Speaker 1: he discovered that there were people who are actually going
Speaker 1: around the country to different hospitals complaining of these conditions
Speaker 1: purely in order to enjoy, believe it or not, the
Speaker 1: the attention that that being a sufferer gave you. And
Speaker 1: because by the time they go to the third or
Speaker 1: fourth hospital, they already had scars from exploratory surgery and stuff.
Speaker 1: So it all sounded very credible. And then stopping somebody
Speaker 1: else identified Munchausen by proxy, which is much nasty where
Speaker 1: people use their children to that saying that's when we
Speaker 1: read about the paper all the time. But he identified
Speaker 1: it and named it after Baron Munchausen, of course, who
Speaker 1: was a legendary of fictitious teller of of of told
Speaker 1: stories and as in the Adventures of Baron munchaus in
Speaker 1: the book and the film by Terry Gilliam, So he
Speaker 1: named it after the baron. Rather is that his personality
Speaker 1: was he a little offbeat? Yes, and he was. He
Speaker 1: was brilliant and a brilliant writer. He wrote extremely well.
Speaker 1: Now I grew up in a family where we all
Speaker 1: had dinner together every evening. Now did you have that
Speaker 1: in your house as often as possible? I think yes?
Speaker 1: So were you interacting with sudden you all at breakfast
Speaker 1: every day and quite off way at dinner? And and
Speaker 1: did your father interact with you? Yes? And to what
Speaker 1: degree you to get you believe your personality from him? Uh?
Speaker 1: I think. I think my love of logic and science
Speaker 1: and literature and good writing all came from him. Um.
Speaker 1: Those so those uh characteristics which I value them, which
Speaker 1: I think did come from my father, And and both
Speaker 1: my sisters have those same characteristics as well. And your
Speaker 1: mother was a music teacher. So did she have you
Speaker 1: learning music in the house? She did? Um? Well, I
Speaker 1: was very uncoperative. I'm the one. I'm the child who
Speaker 1: kept up least with my piano lessons and and formal
Speaker 1: music training. I was very lazy about it and and
Speaker 1: sort of didn't uncooperative about it. Both my sisters read
Speaker 1: music much much better than I do. But was there
Speaker 1: always music in the house? Yes? Always? Um. My mother
Speaker 1: started as a working musician, of course, when I was young.
Speaker 1: Apparently I spent the first year or so of my
Speaker 1: life on the road. Really because okay, so your parents
Speaker 1: were married. Your father's a doctor and your mother's going
Speaker 1: on the road. Yes, because at that point suddenly the
Speaker 1: orchestras were I'd run out of people because all the
Speaker 1: men were conscripted or volunteered. And what your father was more,
Speaker 1: he was in a doctor in London, um, dealing with
Speaker 1: victims of the bombing and all that stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: that made him a lifelong pacifist. Being dealing with all
Speaker 1: the blown up people in the Blitz was more than
Speaker 1: enough to convince him it was not a good idea.
Speaker 1: And uh, my mom, that was when the big orchestras
Speaker 1: had women in them only as a lost resort. Women
Speaker 1: only they were My mother was telling me once how
Speaker 1: they were instructed. When the whole orchestras in the symphony orchestra,
Speaker 1: the Halle orchestra, whatever it was, walked on stage for
Speaker 1: a concert, the women was instructed to walk behind the
Speaker 1: man as unobtrusively as possible. Wow. So your mother when
Speaker 1: she went on the road with you, and apparently we
Speaker 1: the orchestras run the road entertaining troops, and when I
Speaker 1: was a baby, I'm told that she I was left.
Speaker 1: A lot of the women would have babies and they
Speaker 1: would leave them under the care of some some burly
Speaker 1: sergeant major in the room somewhere while the concert took place,
Speaker 1: and your mother went on the road for the compensation
Speaker 1: or because she was filling a niche I think because
Speaker 1: it was a gig, you know it was. She was
Speaker 1: a musician, and somebody offered you a place in a
Speaker 1: major orchestra, you took it. I guess. I don't remember
Speaker 1: asking that, asking that particular question. But there were three
Speaker 1: kids in the family. Uh yeah, Well when I was
Speaker 1: a little baby, there was only me. I was the oldest.
Speaker 1: So if she's telling about when I was a little baby,
Speaker 1: which I think she was, maybe she hadn't even had
Speaker 1: Jane yet, let alone Clad. Okay, so your sister is
Speaker 1: famous actress, genius and clear? What was Clear's life about?
Speaker 1: Claire became a school teacher, then at mistress, and then
Speaker 1: a school inspector um and now she occasionally still works
Speaker 1: for Offsted, which is the school inspection agency in the UK,
Speaker 1: and she kind of inspects the inspectors or something as
Speaker 1: a on a consultant basis. She's the cleverest of all
Speaker 1: of us in and you still have contact with her. Oh, yes,
Speaker 1: very much. So okay, so you're in the house, and
Speaker 1: at what point do you become infected with popular music?
Speaker 1: Quite late? I was a classical music fan. Then I
Speaker 1: was a jazz fan, which I do when I'm terrible
Speaker 1: at dates, I should warn you. But I suppose when
Speaker 1: I was ten, eleven, twelve, I don't know, it's okay,
Speaker 1: But when you were into jazz, because you know America,
Speaker 1: you know, we have a different frame of reference. Was
Speaker 1: jazz the sound that people were listening to? No, uh,
Speaker 1: not so much. Although track jazz as we called you know,
Speaker 1: Dixie Land did enjoy a great vogue in the UK.
Speaker 1: But modern jazz bebop that I was enthrolled with was
Speaker 1: at a smaller audience. It was not popular music, but
Speaker 1: it was cool music. It was you know, how did
Speaker 1: you get turned onto it? I don't know. Uh. I
Speaker 1: had a friend who was a huge fan, maybe he
Speaker 1: was a fan before I was, who had a better
Speaker 1: record collection than I did. But you started, you know,
Speaker 1: once you're into it, you start collecting all those all
Speaker 1: your Charlie Parker and thelonis someone can Max Roach and
Speaker 1: all those records. It becomes the thing, you know. And
Speaker 1: those were all forty five. No, they were albums very
Speaker 1: often ten inch albums, tenny inch album really they played
Speaker 1: at thirty three. Yes, at that point there were ten
Speaker 1: inch and twelve inch and because getting American albums was
Speaker 1: the coolest, you know, albums on Blue Notes and Prestige
Speaker 1: and all those great labels. The irony of course being
Speaker 1: an American the sixties, the thing was to have the
Speaker 1: English completely. It turned around completely. And of course the
Speaker 1: thing that we could never understand about the English albums
Speaker 1: is they weren't shrink wrapped. Well that's right, yes exactly.
Speaker 1: Now they were quite different. And we would collect American
Speaker 1: albums and and then I was a big folk fan
Speaker 1: as well. You get turned onto the folk. I think
Speaker 1: my friend, I don't know, it might have been my
Speaker 1: friend Andrew Even, who's now pretty successful in himself. He's
Speaker 1: Andy Oven and he lives in Ireland and has a
Speaker 1: folk career still to this day, um doing very well.
Speaker 1: It might have been him. I fell in love with
Speaker 1: Woody Guthrie for some reason. I think it was part
Speaker 1: of our our our you know, we We were inspired
Speaker 1: by America overall. We loved everything that was American. And
Speaker 1: you can't get much more American than Charlie Parker on
Speaker 1: the one and and what do you on the other.
Speaker 1: But in now we have the Internet and you can
Speaker 1: find out what's going on around the world. How did
Speaker 1: you gain this information? Uh? You know, we read Grapes
Speaker 1: of Roth. We read we read Woody Yathri's book Man
Speaker 1: for Glory. We we knew what the songs were about.
Speaker 1: You know, when he'd sing a song about Sacho and Vanzetti,
Speaker 1: we'd go, who's that? When we go to the library
Speaker 1: and look it up? And and so so we we
Speaker 1: got interested in all that, all that stuff, and as
Speaker 1: I say, everything American had a real allure to it.
Speaker 1: And of course we took a jazz hero is infinitely
Speaker 1: more seriously then they were taken in America. I mean,
Speaker 1: when the Lonis Monk would play London, he'd be playing
Speaker 1: the Festival Hall to a rapt and silent audience. When
Speaker 1: he played New York, he'd be playing in a jazz
Speaker 1: club in which half the people appeared to be not
Speaker 1: paying attention. So we realized how important these people were.
Speaker 1: In the same way that we subsequently did with American
Speaker 1: rock and roll. Okay, if this isn't exactly the kind
Speaker 1: of music, you may, but you're piquing my interest. Of course,
Speaker 1: it was the Brits who were responsible for the blues revos. Yes,
Speaker 1: why do you think that happened? Well, you said, Going
Speaker 1: and I didn't make this kind of records. The interesting
Speaker 1: thing is we kind of did. If you listen to
Speaker 1: I mean to the best viability, you listen to a
Speaker 1: lot of Peter and Going albums, There's there's Jimmy Read
Speaker 1: songs on there, there's there's you know, I'm not saying
Speaker 1: well badly we did them, but we were as gung
Speaker 1: ho on American rhythm and blues as everybody else was.
Speaker 1: It became a collective obsession. We all knew who wrote
Speaker 1: those songs. We knew about author Alexander and we knew
Speaker 1: about you know, and then you know obviously Smokey Robinson
Speaker 1: all the hits. But in addition, we we did know
Speaker 1: about Jimmy Reid and and you know even earlier people
Speaker 1: than that, Robert Johnson and to him. We we we
Speaker 1: we we got into it. Now of course you have
Speaker 1: the BBC. Would they play these records BBC U as
Speaker 1: you probably know how to limit on how many records
Speaker 1: they could play of any kind. There was a very
Speaker 1: limited amount of what they called needle time allowed. So uh,
Speaker 1: they didn't know. It's a good question exactly how we
Speaker 1: came to hear it. It was a It was a person.
Speaker 1: The person I remember I belonged to some kind of
Speaker 1: jazz and blues society and we'd meet once a week somewhere.
Speaker 1: People would bring records they play. Yes, that's like the
Speaker 1: early parts of the early era of the computer world.
Speaker 1: You'd go and you have a meeting about computers. Yes,
Speaker 1: and people would say, look, I found this. And then
Speaker 1: you could buy bootlegs too. There was a dad jazz
Speaker 1: record shop called Doebells in the jan Cross Road where
Speaker 1: they would sell which I didn't even think of his
Speaker 1: bootlegs at the time, but of course they must have been.
Speaker 1: They would sell individually got acetates from behind the counter
Speaker 1: of jazz and folk albums that we couldn't get, all
Speaker 1: the folk ways and ash albums and stuff that we're
Speaker 1: not released in the UK. You could buy a doughbells
Speaker 1: and of course I realized now that what they were
Speaker 1: doing is just copying the single American copy they'd managed
Speaker 1: to get. So you're now in school and you start
Speaker 1: performing when you're a school I met Gordon at school,
Speaker 1: Gordon Waller. But before you meet Gordon, are you're performing
Speaker 1: at all? No? I don't think so, well, not at school.
Speaker 1: I did have a skiffle group before that, um as
Speaker 1: everybody did. So it's like in America when the Beatles
Speaker 1: said everybody picked up a guitar. Everybody in England out
Speaker 1: of school. I read in one of the books that's
Speaker 1: supposed to fifty and skillful group at the peak, and
Speaker 1: you know, there were some group to add hits. I
Speaker 1: think the first one was Freight Train Chas McDevitt was
Speaker 1: the man's name, and they had the first hit with
Speaker 1: a version of freight Train Old Song, which the writer
Speaker 1: was was around. Then there was the Vipers, had a
Speaker 1: couple of hits, and finally Lonnie Donigan, of course, who
Speaker 1: became the star. And Lonnie Donegan, as you may know,
Speaker 1: came out of the Dixie Land jazz trad jazz I
Speaker 1: didn't know, Oh yes completely. He was the banjo player
Speaker 1: in Chris Barber's jazz band. Chris Barber was one of
Speaker 1: the most successful of these trad jazz bands who were
Speaker 1: very popular and had hits. And he played chunka chunka
Speaker 1: banjo with Chris Barber, which was the usual you know, trumpet, trombone, clarinet,
Speaker 1: Dixieland combination. And apparently, and I remember seeing this in
Speaker 1: the middle of the show, they would give Lonnie Donning
Speaker 1: on a spot where we would do a couple of
Speaker 1: folk songs and that's where like his version of Rock Island,
Speaker 1: Lion and stuff came from. And eventually he formed his
Speaker 1: own and and rock allant line of course began number
Speaker 1: one all over the place. Now what was the startup
Speaker 1: status of television at that point? I don't know how
Speaker 1: much music there was on TV. There was six six
Speaker 1: five special, I guess started around that time. That was
Speaker 1: the first TV show that had rock and roll on it.
Speaker 1: And did everybody have a TV? We got our television,
Speaker 1: our first television for the Coronation, which was fifty something.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, and I think people, wait, do you
Speaker 1: remember watching the Coronation? Yes, yes, very much so. It's
Speaker 1: always like getting a TV for the Super Bowl. You
Speaker 1: knew this was coming, yes, And as you may have
Speaker 1: read or seen, if you watched the Crown that it
Speaker 1: was Churchill who convinced the Queen to do it, which
Speaker 1: was interesting because he was a very conservative man. But
Speaker 1: they said, look this this new thing, you know, the
Speaker 1: television has becoming a thing and should be or should
Speaker 1: we not? And there was a major school of thought
Speaker 1: that you absolutely should not. They would destroy the mystique
Speaker 1: and the magic and the the actually religious quotient of
Speaker 1: this whole royal business. And the Queen herself it came
Speaker 1: came to the decision, came down to her with whatever
Speaker 1: ridiculous a young age she was, and she talked to
Speaker 1: Churchill and he said, you should do it, you know,
Speaker 1: you should let them in. So if you're someone of
Speaker 1: your generation in England, does everyone remember where they were
Speaker 1: when the when Queen Elizabeth was coordinated? Probably? I don't know. Um,
Speaker 1: I mean, at least you're not remembering a tragedy like
Speaker 1: the Kennedy. Everybody at my age remembers exactly where they
Speaker 1: were when. That is actually what I was thinking about,
Speaker 1: well exactly I was. I remember being at school and
Speaker 1: when we got the news of you know, that remas
Speaker 1: the same impact to some degree globally, I think because
Speaker 1: Kennedy was a global hero. But yes, I would say
Speaker 1: most people. I think my guess would be the cardination
Speaker 1: got ridiculous viewing figures because he had one channel. It's
Speaker 1: not that you could watch something else. So you either
Speaker 1: turned to don't or you didn't and why wouldn't you?
Speaker 1: It was a national holiday. You a skiffle group, and
Speaker 1: then you went to school and you met Gordon. Yes,
Speaker 1: how did you meet Gordon? We were in the same
Speaker 1: house at school and now I find the people know
Speaker 1: what that means because of Harry Potter. You know, house
Speaker 1: is a subdivision within your school, and that meant we
Speaker 1: would inevitably meet. And we discovered that we both played
Speaker 1: the guitar and sang. So what was Gordon's background that
Speaker 1: he played the guitar and saying his father was also
Speaker 1: a doctor actually and he lived out in Pinna where's from? Yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure how he started playing the guitar.
Speaker 1: He was. He was a big rock fan. So you're
Speaker 1: a what age when you meet Gordon? Now you meet him?
Speaker 1: Is it's something that evolved or do you immediately see
Speaker 1: each other and say, well, you play music, I play music.
Speaker 1: We're gonna do something It must have involved quite quickly
Speaker 1: because discovering we both played, we knew about the same
Speaker 1: number of chords, not a huge number, but enough to
Speaker 1: get by. And we started comparing musical tastes. And I
Speaker 1: was more of a folky. He didn't know much about
Speaker 1: what he got. Three I showed him some songs. He
Speaker 1: liked them. He was more of a rocket. I mean
Speaker 1: I knew about Elvis, of course, but he would he
Speaker 1: was deep into Elvis and Eddie Cochrane and and we
Speaker 1: did coincide on the Evely Brothers. We both were Evely's fans,
Speaker 1: so inevitably when that's who we started singing. And I
Speaker 1: think we did talk about forming a band at one point.
Speaker 1: We did have a group, I remember because we actually entered.
Speaker 1: Uh we were in a group and we entered ourselves
Speaker 1: into the chamber music competition at school because we qualified
Speaker 1: because it said they could be you know, four or
Speaker 1: more instruments or something. And you know, somehow we we
Speaker 1: realized that by playing a Shadows tune, the Shadows being
Speaker 1: the big instrumental band in the UK, that we could
Speaker 1: enter the chamber music competition. And we did. They let
Speaker 1: us do it to and how how were you received.
Speaker 1: We got an honorary mentioned. The judges said it was
Speaker 1: very hard to compare us to a you know, a
Speaker 1: box string quartet or whatever, but but that we we
Speaker 1: all seem to play well, and they gave us an
Speaker 1: honorary mention. Was this a lark or are you seeing it?
Speaker 1: We want to get gigs, we want to make money.
Speaker 1: We weren't thinking about making gigs and money at that time.
Speaker 1: I don't think we just wanted to try it out.
Speaker 1: And I don't remember the process by which we kind
Speaker 1: of abandoned the idea of a group and Golden and
Speaker 1: I became a duo, but gradually it became just us.
Speaker 1: And what did that look like in terms of you playing?
Speaker 1: We as I say, we did? Quite a few have
Speaker 1: re LEAs songs we did. We worked out a couple
Speaker 1: of what he got three songs and folk songs, um,
Speaker 1: we worked out some Elvis songs. We used to do.
Speaker 1: How many version of Old show Cup which was pretty cool?
Speaker 1: Slow died down? And there were there other musicians in
Speaker 1: your school, oh, lots among the Mandel Looyd Weather really? Yes,
Speaker 1: so you went to did you knew Andrew Lloyd? Yes?
Speaker 1: And did you have any hint that he would become
Speaker 1: the judge. He was no, but he did write the
Speaker 1: first one. What was it the Touch? Really the first
Speaker 1: trial run. I think it was just after left school,
Speaker 1: but he was working on it at It's fascinating because
Speaker 1: in America that was a complete stuff, had no women. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and Jesus Christ Superstar. The single came out in the
Speaker 1: spring of seventy and then the album. It had a
Speaker 1: totally different uh skew or impact on the culture. It
Speaker 1: was seen as a rock thing as opposed to now
Speaker 1: he's seen as a Broadway Yes, that's right, but it
Speaker 1: was really they made the album first too, with rock
Speaker 1: singers exactly. The the It didn't hit probably till a
Speaker 1: year after the album came out, but it was you know,
Speaker 1: it had different rock people on it and it was great.
Speaker 1: So you were you just one of the acts in
Speaker 1: school or do? Were you one of the better acts?
Speaker 1: I don't remember any other acts? Actually, I imagine there
Speaker 1: must have been some, but we were not really well. So.
Speaker 1: So they're having a assembly so to speak, you're playing.
Speaker 1: Do you have many opportunities to perform? Not much, not
Speaker 1: in school functions, no, but but potties yes, and Eventually
Speaker 1: you you find just getting asked to more potties than usual, um,
Speaker 1: by people you don't particularly know. You know, that's come
Speaker 1: to having a potty, Please come and bring your guitars. Know,
Speaker 1: eventually dawns on you you're actually getting booked for free gigs, right,
Speaker 1: your book for free gigs, which is fine of course,
Speaker 1: but are you enjoying the Yes, it was great and
Speaker 1: it makes it easier to short two girls and all
Speaker 1: that stuff. You know, how how long do you stay
Speaker 1: in school? Um? All the way through? You know, telling
Speaker 1: finish school? Which was I suppose seventeen sixteen? Okay, what
Speaker 1: about going to university? I did? Gordon Gordon was the
Speaker 1: year behind me in school. He's one year younger. So yes,
Speaker 1: by the time we started to be successful, I was
Speaker 1: actually at university. I was a King's College, London, UM,
Speaker 1: studying philosophy. And you finished there. No, I did, not, No, significantly.
Speaker 1: I You see, we've been gigging while we were at school.
Speaker 1: We started getting some actual paid gigs. Did you have
Speaker 1: an agent? How did you get those gigs? I think
Speaker 1: one of them actually we played a place called Maria's
Speaker 1: or something was well. I think we actually recommended by
Speaker 1: our friends Jan and Jeremy. But incidentally because they you
Speaker 1: brought them up. Yes, because many people because of the
Speaker 1: similarity of these I'm in the same boat. But you
Speaker 1: actually knew them, Yes, we did, and the similarities are bizarre.
Speaker 1: I mean, think about it, two duos all the tall one,
Speaker 1: tall handsome one sings the low part, the short nerdy
Speaker 1: one wears glasses sings the high pot and in both
Speaker 1: cases the one who's actually the lead singer puts his
Speaker 1: name second. Right. It's really weird. Ja and Jeremy, Peter.
Speaker 1: But you had a hit before they did, right, Yes,
Speaker 1: And they never really had hits in the UK. Really,
Speaker 1: they were only successful in America, very successful. Why is that?
Speaker 1: I don't know. And I think their label was kind
Speaker 1: of non existent in the UK. They were on a
Speaker 1: weird label and and uh, yes, it's it's it's very curious.
Speaker 1: But they when we were stepping were confused all for
Speaker 1: each other all the time. They we would do things
Speaker 1: when we were on the d Salvent Show, which they
Speaker 1: never got on. We they would get congratulated and great
Speaker 1: and vice versa because they did um, the Dig Van
Speaker 1: Dyke Show, the Battie Duke Show and Batman, which was
Speaker 1: the biggest TV show in the world, and we would
Speaker 1: get congratulated and get pissed. That's it all works out.
Speaker 1: We were saying, they helped get you gigs or they have.
Speaker 1: There was one particular gig that they were moving on
Speaker 1: to a different gig and and this lunchtime gig, we're
Speaker 1: looking for a replacement, and they recommended us. I know.
Speaker 1: That's how we got one gig. We did have an
Speaker 1: agent one brief period. I remember a guy called Lenn Black.
Speaker 1: Lenn Black, that's right, I've dropped about him. And how
Speaker 1: much was a gig worth? We we did Papa lunchtime.
Speaker 1: We got a pound each and a meal and then
Speaker 1: eventually we got this better paying, more serious gig at
Speaker 1: a place called the pick Quick Club. And that's where
Speaker 1: you know, we got discovered and things changed. Okay, so
Speaker 1: you were going to King's College. Gordon was the year
Speaker 1: behind you. Did he go to college by that time?
Speaker 1: By the time we were the Pickwick, he had left school. Okay,
Speaker 1: I was not going to university. And then so how
Speaker 1: did you get discovered? We were playing at the Pickwick Club. Well,
Speaker 1: for those who don't know, what was the Pickwick where
Speaker 1: was it and what was in the middle of London
Speaker 1: off the Ja cross Road. It was the sort of
Speaker 1: up market late night eating and drinking club, a lot
Speaker 1: of stars of the day. The first time I ever
Speaker 1: met Michael Caine was in the Pickwick Club, Morrice mikel
Speaker 1: White right exactly. This was when he was, you know,
Speaker 1: very young and handsome. Um. David Hemmings of course you're
Speaker 1: a blow up, you know. Um. So it was the
Speaker 1: place to be. Terence Stamp and his incredibly beautiful girlfriend
Speaker 1: Jean Shrimpton, um and so on, and Harry seek him
Speaker 1: one of the one I don't know the gun show,
Speaker 1: Harry sekim be to sell. Spike Milligan of course met
Speaker 1: him there. He was charming in a good tipper and
Speaker 1: and we would sit in a couple of barssels at
Speaker 1: the bar and do two or three sets a night,
Speaker 1: singing heavily songs, current songs and would the people pay attention? Yes,
Speaker 1: sometimes something something that they wouldn't How long did you
Speaker 1: play and were you trying to get discovered where you're
Speaker 1: putting out fields? Now we're just doing a gig. We
Speaker 1: were just doing it and it was quite well paid
Speaker 1: and we got free food in a really delicious, great
Speaker 1: restaurant and tips. People would request songs and we do
Speaker 1: our very best to learn them and do them. Or
Speaker 1: we say, you know, we'll come back, come back, and
Speaker 1: they so we will learn it. And we're still going
Speaker 1: to school at this point. Uh. There was a period
Speaker 1: during our early gigging where I had left school and
Speaker 1: Gordon was still at school and he would have to
Speaker 1: climb over a fence to get out because when he
Speaker 1: was a weekly boarder, and I would illegally would get
Speaker 1: out over a fence. I would meet him and drive
Speaker 1: to the gig. But I was not. I was at university.
Speaker 1: But then later on Gordon left school. But I forget
Speaker 1: exactly the order things happening. But one night at the
Speaker 1: Biggery Club, John the question. We would do about three
Speaker 1: sets to night. I think how many days a week?
Speaker 1: Every night? So so at that point if you work,
Speaker 1: it was seven days. If you're working, if you're working
Speaker 1: that much, you're not going to school an even No, Well,
Speaker 1: Gordon was okay, but you how do you decide to
Speaker 1: leave school? No? I left to go when I was
Speaker 1: finished with school. I was you were at the university,
Speaker 1: we're doing these things. How could you study if you're
Speaker 1: working you know every night? Um I did I got
Speaker 1: away with it? Did I do well enough? I passed
Speaker 1: my exams? Okay, so you're you're working at the Pickwick Club.
Speaker 1: One night a man in a very shiny suit asked
Speaker 1: us to sit down have a drink with him. We
Speaker 1: said yes, we always yes to that question, and and
Speaker 1: he introduced himself as Norman Newell and an a guy
Speaker 1: from E M I Records, and said that you would
Speaker 1: like us to come and do an audition for E
Speaker 1: M I at em I Studios. We were very excited.
Speaker 1: Uh was this was me days away? He boked some time.
Speaker 1: We went and cut a bunch of songs just with
Speaker 1: us on our guitars, just like we've been doing in
Speaker 1: the Pickwy Club, and several songs. He particularly liked our
Speaker 1: version of five miles, the old Folks song. I think
Speaker 1: at the time he was kind of imagining maybe we
Speaker 1: would be England's answer to the folk boom, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of the Kingston Duo as it were, or Peter
Speaker 1: and Paul without marriage. This is before the explosion of
Speaker 1: the Beatles, yes, and well might have been just beginning.
Speaker 1: I guess maybe beatles first single maybe I don't know, um,
Speaker 1: but yes, it must have been because at that point
Speaker 1: Paul was already living in our house, so they were
Speaker 1: already down in London. And so yes, no, the Beatles
Speaker 1: had happened, because in America the Beatles and no Beatles yet. No,
Speaker 1: but when the Beatles happened sixty four, which was two
Speaker 1: years later, just killed the folks sine overnight, right, No,
Speaker 1: the folks, yes, exactly, but the folksine had leaked over
Speaker 1: to England and maybe he thought, you know, that was
Speaker 1: where we were got to fit in. But the Beatles
Speaker 1: must have been happening at that time because that was
Speaker 1: when Paul was he had moved into use and and
Speaker 1: uh so that's when you know, we went did the
Speaker 1: audition and they give us a record contractor they sent
Speaker 1: us a record deal. Said well, you know, okay, we
Speaker 1: use you know, saying this is it, this is my career,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make it. Yes, yes, we all thought that
Speaker 1: because of course at that time, the without a record deal,
Speaker 1: there was no hope at all. There were no alternatives.
Speaker 1: The only way anyone was gonna ever hear your music
Speaker 1: other than a gig was making a record. And did
Speaker 1: you have a lawyer. Look at the deal we had
Speaker 1: the e M. I got us a manager, which should
Speaker 1: have been an indication. But we're managed by Michael Richard
Speaker 1: Armitage who managed David Frost and managed pianist called Russ
Speaker 1: Conway who had a lot of hits in the UK,
Speaker 1: and a few other people, and um I had quite
Speaker 1: a big music organization. It was Noel Gay Publishing, Noel
Speaker 1: Gay being a very successful songwriter from a previous era.
Speaker 1: UM So there we were and and we they gave
Speaker 1: us our record deal and and that's when we okay,
Speaker 1: So then what about what to record? Exactly? Well, Norman
Speaker 1: had picked a couple of songs off a demo including
Speaker 1: if you remember I don't We probably did about ten
Speaker 1: songs a lot, yeah, that we've been you know, about
Speaker 1: ten that we've been doing in the sets at the club.
Speaker 1: And he picked a couple of specific ones I think
Speaker 1: an Evily song and five Miles and that he wanted
Speaker 1: us to record. But that's when he did say, look,
Speaker 1: if you know any other songs that might you know
Speaker 1: fit in you know, you think would be good to record.
Speaker 1: Uh biole means bring it to my attention. And that's
Speaker 1: when this whole other story. Okay, let's let's stop for
Speaker 1: a second. How does Paul McCartney end up living in
Speaker 1: your house? Well, that's the other story. Uh. My sister
Speaker 1: Jane at that time, I've already become a very successful actress.
Speaker 1: We both started acting when we were chilled. How does
Speaker 1: that happen? Um? An agent spotted the three of us, myself,
Speaker 1: Jane and Claire and kind of went, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: you could you know, they could do well a little
Speaker 1: bit slower. You're like, you know, I know this doesn't exist,
Speaker 1: but you're like at the mall, you're walking. We were
Speaker 1: at the park, as I recall, in a playground, and
Speaker 1: some agent was talking to my mother. I think that's
Speaker 1: the story as I as I've been telling, and your
Speaker 1: mother is not suspicious, No, she was kind of inter curious. Um.
Speaker 1: They said, well, you know, I think it was something
Speaker 1: like this that you know, because we all had red hair,
Speaker 1: and we were equally graded in height, and nevidently looked
Speaker 1: sufficiently you know, cute, and and so we all said, oh,
Speaker 1: that sounds great, let's do it, you know, And so
Speaker 1: we signed up to this acting agent, a woman called
Speaker 1: Valerie Glynn Wilson, gave acting classes, which we went to
Speaker 1: a bit, and both Jane and I started getting work
Speaker 1: kind of straight away. What kind of work did you get? Well,
Speaker 1: my first film was this film called The Plant His Wife,
Speaker 1: where I can probably say Plaudette Colbert played my mother
Speaker 1: and and Jack Hawkins played my father, and we were
Speaker 1: fighting the Commies in the in the Empire. We were
Speaker 1: out in Malaysia saving the British. How big a role
Speaker 1: did you have? Big? I was the son. Okay, you're
Speaker 1: going to school, Yes, you're in a movie. Yes, the
Speaker 1: people now, I mean that was when I was eight.
Speaker 1: We do you go play? That's the kid from the movie. Occasionally?
Speaker 1: How good did that make you feel? Excellent? Okay, so
Speaker 1: you do that movie and then then does it dry upper?
Speaker 1: There's continuing work. I've worked for about the next five
Speaker 1: years or so. A lot um uh, because at that
Speaker 1: time you could juggle. It was school, and it was
Speaker 1: fine because you know, they'd have to have teachers on
Speaker 1: the set and all that stuff. But when I went
Speaker 1: to when I switched from prep school too, what you
Speaker 1: would call high school became harder because I was at
Speaker 1: this place for Westminster School, which which is why about
Speaker 1: Gordon who are much stricter about letting you have to
Speaker 1: time off. So so did that ultimately kill your acting career?
Speaker 1: I think so that's my excuse anyway, Okay, what Jane
Speaker 1: left school, uh fifteen? She was she loved acting. She
Speaker 1: she stuck with it. We did do one thing together once.
Speaker 1: What happened to Claire was she acting too or she dropped?
Speaker 1: He did do some acting, but not very much. So
Speaker 1: she did do something. So Jane sticks with it, and
Speaker 1: you do what together. Jane left to stick with it.
Speaker 1: The one we did together was an episode of robin Hood,
Speaker 1: the old black and white Robin Hood series. I was
Speaker 1: in four or five of them as Prince Arthur. But
Speaker 1: then after I've done that for a while, that stopped.
Speaker 1: Prince author dropped out for some reason, but they asked
Speaker 1: to be back with Jane a year or so later.
Speaker 1: By that time, I had been demoted to a peasant child.
Speaker 1: So Jane and I play a mother and sister peasant
Speaker 1: children whose father has been captured by the sheriff and
Speaker 1: who go to Robin for help. And it's it's also
Speaker 1: quite substant anto roles and I can't remember her names though,
Speaker 1: and and that's the only thing we ever did together,
Speaker 1: but that was fun. Anyway, Jane took to acting very vigorously,
Speaker 1: and because it's still very successful to this day. That's
Speaker 1: what she's doing all the time as we speak, and
Speaker 1: doing it very well and doing very well at it.
Speaker 1: And so she when I left school and went to
Speaker 1: series school, she left school and quit and took acting
Speaker 1: seriously and has been working ever since. And she meets
Speaker 1: Paul McCartney. How she was the celebrity. She was also
Speaker 1: well respected for her musical opinions. She'd been on the
Speaker 1: show called Jukebox Jury, which was a TV weekly TV
Speaker 1: show where they had celebrities give their opinion on the
Speaker 1: latest round of record releases, and she did that very
Speaker 1: well because she loved music. She's articulate and she's good
Speaker 1: at it. So it was in that context at the
Speaker 1: Radio Times, which is like our TV guide kind of thing. Um,
Speaker 1: he said we didn't really need a TV because, as
Speaker 1: they said, we only had one TV, but we had
Speaker 1: multiple radio channels. And so they are starting to go
Speaker 1: and see this band who just come down from London
Speaker 1: that all the girls were screaming over, and so she
Speaker 1: did and she thought they were amazing and loved them
Speaker 1: and and thought the music was terrific, and they were.
Speaker 1: She was taken backstage as the visiting celeb to meet them.
Speaker 1: She liked them very much, they liked her, and one
Speaker 1: of them liked her in particular, anounced her out and
Speaker 1: this one okay, but he's from Liverpool. Yeah, so they
Speaker 1: become boyfriend girlfriend. How does he end up literally living
Speaker 1: in your house? He was just hanging around there all
Speaker 1: the time, I think, and our parents sort of took
Speaker 1: pity on him and offered him the guest room in
Speaker 1: the house because the Beatles had a flat in Green
Speaker 1: Street and Mayfair, as I recall, But it was chaos.
Speaker 1: It was for for guys living together, you know, who
Speaker 1: weren't that much and we're on the road a lot
Speaker 1: in rock and roll style. And I think when they
Speaker 1: made this offer, I think he liked the idea of
Speaker 1: having slightly more organized family existence. Ultimately, how he moved in, Ultimately,
Speaker 1: how long did he live there? Two? He is, I think.
Speaker 1: And when he first moves in, have they already had
Speaker 1: a hit? Yes? They must have, yes, because he was
Speaker 1: already being recognized. Okay, So what was that like having
Speaker 1: Paul McCartney living your house for you, it was well,
Speaker 1: I mean it was very interesting. I mean, I was
Speaker 1: happy to meet him. I liked him a lot. Obviously
Speaker 1: we we lived next door to each other on the
Speaker 1: top floor. She had a bathroom, so I got to
Speaker 1: know him and liked him. I mean, I think for
Speaker 1: everybody was a bit strange because of the celebrity factor.
Speaker 1: But that was, as you probably know, in that Wimple
Speaker 1: Street Holly Street area in London is where doctors have
Speaker 1: their consulting rooms as well. So there were moments when
Speaker 1: patients would come to visit see my father and be
Speaker 1: very puzzled by a crowd of girls milling around on
Speaker 1: the doorstep because eventually, because people did find out where
Speaker 1: he was living. So so so, your father's office was
Speaker 1: in the basess, No, in the in his office was
Speaker 1: on the what we called the first floor. He was like, okay,
Speaker 1: now you had a piano in the basement where he
Speaker 1: would write and rehearse. That's a music room my mother had.
Speaker 1: We had a piano in the sitting room on the
Speaker 1: second floor, which he couldn't use, but there was the
Speaker 1: other piano was a little upright in the basement where
Speaker 1: my mother had a small music room, because the occasionally
Speaker 1: would give private lessons because she taught mostly the Royal
Speaker 1: Academy and occasionally was a visiting professor at the Guildhall
Speaker 1: School of Music as well, where in one of the
Speaker 1: curiosity curiosity is his whole business. One of the pupils
Speaker 1: that the guild Hall was George Martin. Very astonishing, but
Speaker 1: I mean so by the time she finally met George
Speaker 1: as her daughter's boyfriend's record you said, it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: of course I know him. He was an OVA player.
Speaker 1: So how much time does Paul spend in the music
Speaker 1: room downstairs, off and on whenever he wanted to use
Speaker 1: the piano? I think, and of course only when he
Speaker 1: was there, because sometimes they were on the road, and
Speaker 1: so was his tenure at our house. We no it
Speaker 1: would it be generally speaking, just him, or would the
Speaker 1: other guys dropped by? Well, this particular occasion, and I
Speaker 1: remember John Lennon came over, but that only happened near
Speaker 1: the beginning. I think this was shortly after, because increasingly
Speaker 1: they started to write separately, tell the famous story about
Speaker 1: the famous song, the famous stories when John came over
Speaker 1: and he and pulled it down in this music room
Speaker 1: in the basement for a couple of hours, and then
Speaker 1: Paul Say's head out and called up the stairs to me.
Speaker 1: I was in my bedroom at the top on the
Speaker 1: top floor, and I wanted to come down and hear
Speaker 1: the song they had just written. So I said, yes,
Speaker 1: I'd love to, and I came down and I sat
Speaker 1: on the little sofa and they'd written the song clearly,
Speaker 1: evidently without guitars. The guitars were upstairs, and they sat
Speaker 1: side by side on the piano bench like a duet,
Speaker 1: and both played the piano and hammered out this brand
Speaker 1: new song called I Want to Hold Your Hand. And
Speaker 1: asked me what I thought, and you said, I said,
Speaker 1: it's great, It's very good. And I think probably the
Speaker 1: key thing I said is please played again, because because
Speaker 1: that's what makes it right, the right, no matter what
Speaker 1: the actors. And how similar was it to the final record? Oh,
Speaker 1: it was very similar, but piano, you know, but it
Speaker 1: was the song was exactly there, and he he at
Speaker 1: the time, Paul, I remember Paul explaining to me what
Speaker 1: some pots were going to be, you know, where there
Speaker 1: was going to be a little guitaric or something, so
Speaker 1: that he had an arrangement in his head, but they
Speaker 1: played it on the piano. But the song is identical.
Speaker 1: So in any event, now you have this deal, you're
Speaker 1: a and R guy says if you have any material, yes,
Speaker 1: if you know of any other songs, And I remembered
Speaker 1: hearing this song called Well without Love that Paul had
Speaker 1: played me at some point on guitar upstairs in his
Speaker 1: bedroom or miro my Fagett which and I admired it,
Speaker 1: and he told me at the time that it was
Speaker 1: a reject song that they weren't going to do that.
Speaker 1: John didn't think much of it or didn't think it
Speaker 1: was right for the Beatles or whatever, and it was unfinished.
Speaker 1: You know, you've written a couple of uses, no bridge
Speaker 1: and had been rejected. So when when Neil Norman asked
Speaker 1: me this question, that's when I said, I think perhaps
Speaker 1: I do. And I went back to Paul that evening,
Speaker 1: I think, or the following evening maybe he was offered
Speaker 1: a gig I don't recall, and said, is that song
Speaker 1: still a reject and is it still in an orphan
Speaker 1: and he said yes, we're not doing it. And I said, well,
Speaker 1: we've just got a record deal and could we try
Speaker 1: and work out and arrangement of it. I like that
Speaker 1: song very much, I remember, have fond memories of it.
Speaker 1: And he said, fine, that would be fine, and he
Speaker 1: wrote out the lyrics and the chords for me, which
Speaker 1: I have safely locked away and highly enjoyed in case,
Speaker 1: in case the world crashes and the music business finally
Speaker 1: completely run to Southern Pasta. But m and and he
Speaker 1: also he made a demo for me on either my
Speaker 1: or his real real machine, I forge you. We both did.
Speaker 1: I had a I forget that. I think my first
Speaker 1: one I was called like a play tone or something,
Speaker 1: and then I got a superior when called a pterograph
Speaker 1: um and Paul Brunel, and then he got a second Brunell.
Speaker 1: Because we were playing with plugging them into each other
Speaker 1: and dubbing back and forth, and the two of you
Speaker 1: together with yes and when you got your record deal.
Speaker 1: Was he encouraging or was two wrapped up in his
Speaker 1: own world? He was the delighted. He didn't. I don't
Speaker 1: remember I having much to do with it or anything,
Speaker 1: but but he said, oh, great, well done. Okay, so
Speaker 1: he writes down world and I said, can we do
Speaker 1: that song? He said yes, um as I official date
Speaker 1: Norman gave me a date that he booked at em
Speaker 1: I Studios with musicians to record these four or five
Speaker 1: chosen songs. And I did at the Nagpole to write
Speaker 1: the bridge in time for that. There was no bridge. Finally,
Speaker 1: when when he finally sits down, do you have any
Speaker 1: idea how long it took? It was very quick. He
Speaker 1: I literally asked him. I said, please, you know, we
Speaker 1: sessions in a week. We really need a bridge, or
Speaker 1: two weeks or whatever it was. And he said okay
Speaker 1: and went in his bedroom with his guitar and came
Speaker 1: out in ten minutes with his brat brilliant. That's the
Speaker 1: So I wait in a while. But that was the bridge,
Speaker 1: and it was perfect, and we recorded the song and
Speaker 1: the day of that session. By the end of the session,
Speaker 1: everyone was sure that was it. We were no longer
Speaker 1: going to be folkis this was gonna be our first single?
Speaker 1: We're gonna be pop stars? And and did you play
Speaker 1: on the record or just sing? I don't think I
Speaker 1: played at all. I think we just sang. I don't
Speaker 1: think either us played on that record. And how often
Speaker 1: how long after the track has recorded is it released
Speaker 1: one month and an instant success, instant success in the UK.
Speaker 1: They actually had Jane on jukebox Jewty that week and
Speaker 1: she particularly asked that they you know, she wanted to
Speaker 1: make sure they weren't going to play it, and they
Speaker 1: lied and sprang it onto on live television. UM, and
Speaker 1: she said, oh, you told me, you you promised you
Speaker 1: wouldn't do and and of course she said, I love it.
Speaker 1: I think it's a great and she they mentioned that
Speaker 1: it was her your brother yesterday, explained and and she said,
Speaker 1: of course it's I'm trying to tell you it's going
Speaker 1: to be a huge it will be number one. It's brilliant.
Speaker 1: And actually she was right, yes it was. And you're
Speaker 1: now on this rocket ship to the moon. And what
Speaker 1: are your thoughts, Um, we barely had time to think.
Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't I think what you mostly don't
Speaker 1: realize is that you've just beaten two million to one odds.
Speaker 1: Because what we now know is, you know, getting a
Speaker 1: record deal itself. The odds are against you. We beat
Speaker 1: those odds. But then when you think I've got a
Speaker 1: record deal, now it's all done, I'm gonna be a
Speaker 1: big stop, now we know those odds are another million
Speaker 1: to one. UM, We didn't know that, and so it
Speaker 1: seemed kind of natural. Signed a record deal, make a record,
Speaker 1: comes out, goes down. But then of course just what
Speaker 1: we meant right away. But then, of course, so the
Speaker 1: other odds being able to follow it up exactly, and
Speaker 1: and of course the fact that when some one in
Speaker 1: the UK, then Europe, and then finally you know, sometime
Speaker 1: later to utmost incredulity number one in America. And at
Speaker 1: the time, because royalty rates were low and it's a
Speaker 1: crooked business, were you anticipating great remuneration? We thought we'd
Speaker 1: get rich and we didn't. Yes, I mean the deal
Speaker 1: then was one penny a record. Uh, we've went ten
Speaker 1: ten pennies an album. There was one English penny to
Speaker 1: an off sense per records. A million sound record, there's
Speaker 1: a million pennies. It's about four thousand pounds, except you
Speaker 1: got half royalties overseas. Of course it's just the US,
Speaker 1: right right, so that actually that million sounding you got
Speaker 1: like to do you do you get any royalties at
Speaker 1: this late date. Yes, I think it's about a hundred
Speaker 1: pounds a year or so. Um, it does come in.
Speaker 1: So okay, you record that first try, you am I
Speaker 1: very meticulous about it. But yes, it's it is minimal.
Speaker 1: That's a whole separate conference, separate conversation. But at least
Speaker 1: you're in in the black. There are many people with
Speaker 1: many hit records that you don't get any money. So uh,
Speaker 1: then you immediately start to work playing World without Love. Yes,
Speaker 1: I mean immediate things with TV shows. Uh. The first
Speaker 1: thing that happens when you have it in the UK
Speaker 1: is you're on top of the pops, You're on Thank
Speaker 1: You like he saws, You're on all the big TV shows.
Speaker 1: And we did those straightaway, both live. And what does
Speaker 1: Paul say about his hip becoming song becoming? He was thrilled,
Speaker 1: he was delighted. I mean he was thrilled. It was
Speaker 1: that song was going to do nothing and he was
Speaker 1: very happy and sold them and happy for us. At
Speaker 1: what point you say we have to follow this up
Speaker 1: and what's the thought process there? We didn't have say anything.
Speaker 1: I mean it's interesting that aspect of it, because people say, well,
Speaker 1: how did you get so many great songs out of
Speaker 1: the Beatles. The only one that we got was the
Speaker 1: first one, and that was the story I've told, But
Speaker 1: no question about it. I mean the Beatles you have
Speaker 1: to remember, took their role as songwriters very seriously. There's
Speaker 1: interviews if you look where you know. Well, first of all,
Speaker 1: let me say this, every interview we did, every interview
Speaker 1: they did, the question you could be certain was going
Speaker 1: to be asked is what are you gonna do? This
Speaker 1: is all over because the assumption, the confidence assumption, was
Speaker 1: that a pop career was like two years. That's famous.
Speaker 1: You know, it's been following Ringdow for fifty years. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna want to hear a salon right exactly exactly, and
Speaker 1: Jona Paul would say, we will be songwriters. Their heroes
Speaker 1: were not only Elvis, their heroes were Governor King and
Speaker 1: Lieber and so that they mentioned that, they say, we
Speaker 1: that's who we want to be. And they saw that
Speaker 1: as a longer lived career then being a pop star.
Speaker 1: So and they knew that songwriting was specific. You wrote
Speaker 1: songs for other people as well as yourself. And so
Speaker 1: one of the duties of a songwriter is to write
Speaker 1: the follow up, because you don't want somebody else cashing
Speaker 1: in on your hit and having it on your coattails.
Speaker 1: Because the follow up to a number one record, it's
Speaker 1: always some kind of hit, and so when we got
Speaker 1: back from a couple of early visits to America promoting
Speaker 1: well Without Love, um, we got back to England. Nobody
Speaker 1: I know was written with the bridge and handed to us.
Speaker 1: No begging involved, no groveling, requirre, okay, just slowing down
Speaker 1: for a second roll. Without Love was a hit. I
Speaker 1: bought the album white cover on Capitol Records. When was
Speaker 1: that record cut? That's a good question, I would guess,
Speaker 1: probably between it being in England and in America. I'm guessing, okay,
Speaker 1: so this is before nobody I know, yes, yes, we
Speaker 1: had not yet nobody nobody remember specifically, here's I'll follow up,
Speaker 1: cut it, put it out, because don't forget. Also, there's
Speaker 1: that weird thing that seems odd now but didn't at
Speaker 1: the time, that singles and albums in England were completely separate.
Speaker 1: The singles weren't on albums. Well, I certainly know when
Speaker 1: the battles I generally speaking, and I'm trying to remember
Speaker 1: the whole logic of it. But the idea was, no,
Speaker 1: it's like cheating to put a single on an album.
Speaker 1: The single is one thing, and then you make an album.
Speaker 1: It's a separate entity. And that's where the Beatles said,
Speaker 1: and I think that's why we did it, except well
Speaker 1: without I probably was on our first album. So I
Speaker 1: it's a muddel. But you you thought of them separately,
Speaker 1: as separate ventures. So you you come back. Nobody I
Speaker 1: know is served right up to you record that. Yes,
Speaker 1: and of course that becomes a hit too. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: that was a big hit too. Yeah, okay, and then
Speaker 1: how long till the next track? Uh? I don't know
Speaker 1: what was next? Was? It was iteces We should look
Speaker 1: at the order of singles. I should know it in
Speaker 1: my head, but uh, because there were there the poll
Speaker 1: ones whose um I Don't want to See You Again
Speaker 1: was another poll song? But that was my favorite. The
Speaker 1: great course, the only people could write melodies and courses
Speaker 1: like that today. I know it's a good song, and
Speaker 1: I suspect I go to pieces was next. And that's
Speaker 1: the song we got from Del Shannon while we were
Speaker 1: on the road with him in Australia. You got it
Speaker 1: how we overheard him trying to sell it to the
Speaker 1: Searches who were on the tour he we were touring
Speaker 1: with them and Dell and Dell had written this song
Speaker 1: which is a very undel Shannon sounding song. It's not
Speaker 1: his usual jangly, a minor kind of song, and and
Speaker 1: we overheard him trying to plug it to the searchers
Speaker 1: and then declining I think mistakenly because they could have
Speaker 1: made a really good record of it with their electric
Speaker 1: troll string vibe, but they chose not to. And we
Speaker 1: overheard it and arstell if we could learn it, and
Speaker 1: he said fine, and torture to us, and we worked
Speaker 1: out a version out there on the road which we
Speaker 1: really liked. He liked it. So at that point we
Speaker 1: said formally, please put this song on hold, you know,
Speaker 1: tell your publisher or whatever you have to do. We
Speaker 1: will cut this as soon as we get back to
Speaker 1: the UK from this Australian tour, which we did. And
Speaker 1: when do you realize it's drying up and it's gonna
Speaker 1: be over? Uh? It seems like a long time, but
Speaker 1: it was probably four or five years I suppose altogether.
Speaker 1: I mean we have to look at the list of singles,
Speaker 1: but I know d Of went dry a bit and
Speaker 1: then Lady could Dive. It was a huge hit, which
Speaker 1: was a song written by Mike Leander, who else wrote
Speaker 1: the strings for She's leaving home a very talented songwriter
Speaker 1: and arranger, and that was a big hit, especially in America,
Speaker 1: especially in Canada to actually, and more so than the UK.
Speaker 1: And then Paul wrote Woman for Us and that was it,
Speaker 1: and so he kept going for a while. Then we
Speaker 1: made this album, A Hot, Cold, and Custard, which was
Speaker 1: our kind of weird, ose psychedelic album, which some of
Speaker 1: which I really like to this day. And it's become
Speaker 1: a kind of hard to get album. Is this incredibly
Speaker 1: tiny cult following. When I say called, I really mean
Speaker 1: or three people exactly, but it has its followers. And uh,
Speaker 1: but that didn't do very well. I didn't never hit
Speaker 1: on it. So I suppose that's when started to things
Speaker 1: started to diminish. And as I've mentioned before, go then
Speaker 1: I never kind of broke up. We didn't have a
Speaker 1: we didn't give up. We didn't break out. We didn't
Speaker 1: have a terminal row like the Evely's. We didn't do
Speaker 1: a lost gig. We just both look kind of drifting
Speaker 1: into other ventures. He wanted to make a solo record.
Speaker 1: I decided I wanted to be a record producer, and
Speaker 1: so on, how do you decide you want to be
Speaker 1: a record very first time I walked into a studio
Speaker 1: and saw how it was done, so how records were made,
Speaker 1: so what the producer got to do. That you could
Speaker 1: hire great musicians and give them ideas and tell them
Speaker 1: what to do and try to nurture them into giving
Speaker 1: a better performance and and stuff. I loved all of that.
Speaker 1: I fell in love with the process pretty much immediately.
Speaker 1: I remember consciously thinking, this is something I'd like to do.
Speaker 1: So when it fades out with Peter and Gordon, you
Speaker 1: end up going to work for Apple at the record
Speaker 1: company as a A and R talent. Yes, yes, Um.
Speaker 1: I had numerous conversations with Paul. By this time he
Speaker 1: moved out, but we'd remained friends. Was he still with
Speaker 1: your sister? At one point during this whole process? He
Speaker 1: wasn't um And people always asked me if that was weird,
Speaker 1: but I have no recognition of it being weird. So
Speaker 1: somehow we retend we just don't talk about that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. My old friendship, um throughout whatever was going on,
Speaker 1: and and uh so I remember being Cavinish Avenue in
Speaker 1: his house and explaining the whole Apple concept and plan
Speaker 1: and which was largely years I mean, the other Beatles
Speaker 1: were on board, but it was his invention. And during
Speaker 1: that process he asked me, first of all, if I
Speaker 1: would produce some records for Apple. He at that point
Speaker 1: you hadn't produced anywhere I had produced some What did
Speaker 1: you produce? The very first record I produced was and
Speaker 1: I owe this man a great debt of gratitude because
Speaker 1: he he'd watched the man in questions Paul Jones. Remember
Speaker 1: Paul Jones, lead singer of Manford Man, brilliant singer, Um,
Speaker 1: you know did the vocal? And do I did? You say?
Speaker 1: You know? The the band continues to be called Man
Speaker 1: from Man. That was the key element. Of course they
Speaker 1: had the Springsteen covers in the seventies, but you always
Speaker 1: wonder whether they could return to that side. Right Well,
Speaker 1: the Springsteen covers was Mike Dab, but of course the
Speaker 1: originally saying it was Paul Jones who did do I did?
Speaker 1: He was just so one of my great brilliant vocal
Speaker 1: the bridge and that's a I just literally remember they
Speaker 1: were falling in love all that. We always just to
Speaker 1: crack me up. As someone who's going to school. I
Speaker 1: knew we was following in lots and he would say
Speaker 1: it should be work right, um of originally the Excitis,
Speaker 1: of course, you know, but we all collected all these
Speaker 1: American records, learned the songs um Paul Jones was making
Speaker 1: his solo record. Paul had watched me in some of
Speaker 1: the later Peter and Gordon records, of which I was
Speaker 1: not the official producer, but with which I was getting
Speaker 1: increasingly involved in the production, with John Burgess who was
Speaker 1: our producer, and Paul, who was also, by the way,
Speaker 1: one of the world's great harmonica plasses you may know, brilliant,
Speaker 1: extraordinarily talented guy now still great and um. He asked
Speaker 1: me if I would produce some tracks with him. He'd
Speaker 1: got a budget from me and my for a solo album,
Speaker 1: so I owe him a great debt. And the first
Speaker 1: record ever produced was Paul Jones doing a cover of
Speaker 1: this song. I had chosen a b G songcle and
Speaker 1: the Sun Will Shine, and I wanted to make sure
Speaker 1: they have a really good band to my very first
Speaker 1: ever production. So whatever notoriety that minor hit and the
Speaker 1: Sun Will Shine by Paul Jones has now is a
Speaker 1: function of the band I put together to play on it,
Speaker 1: which was Nicky Hopkins on piano, legendary studio Pianost brilliant,
Speaker 1: amazing guy, Paul Samuel Smith on bass who was the
Speaker 1: bass player and the Yardbirds who went on to produce
Speaker 1: Collie Simon and Cat Stevens and was a great friend
Speaker 1: of mine. And then on guitar Jeff Beck taking No Chances,
Speaker 1: and on drums Paul McCartney because I was very familiar
Speaker 1: with Paul's drumming and I loved it, and I think
Speaker 1: I could probably get him to play on a session
Speaker 1: as like drum this because it would be a change
Speaker 1: of course. So I did and he said yes, Jeff back.
Speaker 1: I didn't know at the time, but I got to
Speaker 1: him through Paul Paul Samuel Smith, who was because at
Speaker 1: that point Jeff was in the band with Paul in
Speaker 1: the Odd Birds, so that was the band. And we
Speaker 1: recorded two tracks, um and the Sun Will Shine and
Speaker 1: the Dog Presides, which is the B side, And was
Speaker 1: there any success with those tracks? The A side was
Speaker 1: a minor hit we going into the charts that he's
Speaker 1: something I think about and would you produce anything else
Speaker 1: before you have this conversation with I did more tracks
Speaker 1: with Paul Jones, and maybe Paul was aware of them.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure anyway, but Paul and I've literally been
Speaker 1: in the studio with you. But to what degree were
Speaker 1: you selling yoursell phone? To what degree was he you know,
Speaker 1: already sold? It didn't occur to me, no, I mean
Speaker 1: when he offered me the job, I was not selling myself.
Speaker 1: I wasn't. I mean, no, he asked me the question
Speaker 1: one night, you know, how would you about producing Marx Apple?
Speaker 1: Of course I said yes immediately on what base as
Speaker 1: he asked that. I'm not really sure, but I know
Speaker 1: he had played on one track at least he'd watch
Speaker 1: me work, So maybe that was okay, total left field.
Speaker 1: Because we hear all this lore about Apple, Yeah, we
Speaker 1: hear about magic Alex, Yes, what was really going on there? Um?
Speaker 1: Magic Alex was a fascinating guy, Alex Mada's Greek um
Speaker 1: sort of inventor. He he knew some real science. He
Speaker 1: was talking about stuff that science should and eventually might
Speaker 1: and sometimes now today can do. But he was exaggerating hugely.
Speaker 1: In my view, he was kind of a bit of
Speaker 1: a fraud because he would convince the Beatles he could
Speaker 1: do stuff that he couldn't, you know. But on the then,
Speaker 1: some of the things he would talk about face recognition,
Speaker 1: voice recognition, a front door that would tell friends from
Speaker 1: foe on that basis, all of which he told Georgia
Speaker 1: aut George believed him completely, and John um not crazy,
Speaker 1: but exaggerated. And but he was a Charlottean he realized
Speaker 1: he was ripping them off in the end. Well, yes,
Speaker 1: I mean I said delusional. He was a bit delusional,
Speaker 1: I think, and a bit of a Charlatan. And and
Speaker 1: I think I read that he died, didn't he last
Speaker 1: year or something? And ripping off? I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: think he worked away with giant gobs of money or anything.
Speaker 1: But did he love being part of the entourage of
Speaker 1: the Beatles? Did he love the fact that they believed him?
Speaker 1: And did he go overboard telling them stuff he could
Speaker 1: do that couldn't really be done. Yes, charlatan implies more
Speaker 1: of a scheme than I think this necessarily was. I
Speaker 1: think he got carried away. Okay, so now you go
Speaker 1: to work for Apple. Are our submissions coming in? Yes,
Speaker 1: they took these ads. You know there was a print
Speaker 1: Dad saying send us to your tapes. You know we
Speaker 1: will listen, And and we did. I had four or
Speaker 1: five people working for me, um, sifting through these tapes
Speaker 1: and uh, and then I would listen to any it
Speaker 1: was any good and I would have a and m
Speaker 1: meetings with as many beatles as would turn up and
Speaker 1: placed after them, and we never found anything. That's the tragedy.
Speaker 1: And that's what people don't realize. It was awful. I mean,
Speaker 1: the terrible thing is that when you say that, you know,
Speaker 1: the standard of what you get is just ghostly. And
Speaker 1: it would be, you know, reams of lyrics. You know
Speaker 1: that they know John is gonna want to set to
Speaker 1: music because they're so brilliant and meaningful, and they would
Speaker 1: just you know, ironically, the paradigm maintains today. But at
Speaker 1: the time, since they're starting a label, do they all
Speaker 1: ultimately have the I vs. We're gonna become bad Finger? Yes,
Speaker 1: the ivys were running by mal EVANSA and what about
Speaker 1: Mary Hopkin and all those things? Did they did they
Speaker 1: have those from the get go? Or do they find
Speaker 1: those things marching on as things marched on? But early
Speaker 1: on in the process, Um, there's a story to each one.
Speaker 1: I mean Mary Hopkins, Twiggy Supermodel to a back when
Speaker 1: there was only one Supermol was watching a television talent
Speaker 1: show called Opportunity Knocks, and she called Paul and said
Speaker 1: this is girl and is really good. He called me,
Speaker 1: said you should watch this, and I think by the
Speaker 1: time he called me, she'd finished him. Of course that
Speaker 1: was it. You couldn't watch anything again. And but she
Speaker 1: she got through the next week, so I was able
Speaker 1: to watch her next week Welsh singing a Joan Bays
Speaker 1: song Beautiful. Paul signed her up, told us to sign
Speaker 1: her up. Derek Taylor and I and somebody else drove
Speaker 1: to Wales to meet with her father and sign her up,
Speaker 1: and he already knew the song he was gonna cut.
Speaker 1: He did this song, Those were the Days in a
Speaker 1: nightclub some months earlier, sung by an American duo called
Speaker 1: Jean and Something, and he filed the song away in
Speaker 1: his head. And this is the father. No, no, Paul, Paul, Paul, sorry, Paul, gotcha,
Speaker 1: gotcha go. When we signed Mary, he'd already got the
Speaker 1: song in his mind that we were going to record
Speaker 1: would and knew exactly how to do it, so, I mean,
Speaker 1: which is remarkable, And he said, we're gonna do this
Speaker 1: song Those with the Days. We found the song. They
Speaker 1: said they'd written it, but actually they had written the words.
Speaker 1: It was a Russian folk song melody. But we did
Speaker 1: the song and Paul already knew how he exactly I
Speaker 1: wanted to do it. Well. The production was empathetical to
Speaker 1: anything on the radio at that time. Yes, he wanted
Speaker 1: the symbol on which is that dring ring ring ring
Speaker 1: ding ding instrument, So like a zither you play with hammers,
Speaker 1: but like a hammad dulcimer. And um, he had that
Speaker 1: whole thing in his head. I helped him produce the record,
Speaker 1: but it was all his idea and there could be
Speaker 1: no follow up because, oh there was a follow up.
Speaker 1: What was the follow up? Pit, I can't remember what
Speaker 1: was next. The other hit she ended up having was Goodbye,
Speaker 1: which Paul wrote a great song. Um. I have a
Speaker 1: version of that somewhere I did with with uh Natalie
Speaker 1: Merchant who loved that song too. Um, but I don't
Speaker 1: think Maybe that wasn't the follow up. Paul did all
Speaker 1: autum with her and then You'd Goodbye, and then she
Speaker 1: had a hit later with Tema Harbor, which was produced
Speaker 1: by Tony Visconti, whom she then married. I think I
Speaker 1: didn't know that. I think so I might be getting
Speaker 1: it wrong. I guess that's a great I want to
Speaker 1: believe it's true. Thanks for listening to the Bob Left
Speaker 1: Sets podcast. I hope you're enjoying the episode so far.
Speaker 1: There's only so much I can get into a podcast.
Speaker 1: But if you simply can't get enough and want to
Speaker 1: know more of my thoughts on the future of the
Speaker 1: music industry, technology and current events, you want to subscribe
Speaker 1: to my newsletter. Now I'm not shameless promotion. Let's dive
Speaker 1: back into the interview. So how do you end up
Speaker 1: connecting with James Taylor? Uh? The James story begins with
Speaker 1: Danny Korchma. Peter Gordon would be assigned a backup band
Speaker 1: on the US to US and and you know, you
Speaker 1: never knew what it was gonna be like. You'd arrive
Speaker 1: and and you know they so you've got a day
Speaker 1: to rehearse. Here's the band we booked for this leg
Speaker 1: of dates, this little group of Midwest dates or whatever.
Speaker 1: And the best one we ever had in a footnote
Speaker 1: was when we showed up in Hawaii and they hadn't
Speaker 1: booked your Waian man. They brought music to l A
Speaker 1: and we walked in the room and it was the
Speaker 1: best back up and and we'd ever rehearsed within our lives.
Speaker 1: It turned out to be the Wrecking Group Um and
Speaker 1: the guitar player was leading the band was particularly good,
Speaker 1: and I made a note of his name and phone number,
Speaker 1: Glenn Campbell, in order to get in touch with him
Speaker 1: later on. That's a digression. One of the good bands
Speaker 1: we had in America was a band called the king Bees,
Speaker 1: who were pretty good, and the guitar player was great,
Speaker 1: and I loved his playing. He was a big Steve
Speaker 1: Propper fan, as was I, and we became firm friends.
Speaker 1: Beyond the petermin Gordon era, Danny Korchby and I became
Speaker 1: close friends. I would stay with him in l a
Speaker 1: and so on, and he was subsequently in a band
Speaker 1: with his childhood friend James Taylor, a band called The
Speaker 1: Flying Machine that was a New York band. They were
Speaker 1: not doing very well. They made half an album or
Speaker 1: something and the money got cut off or whatever. They
Speaker 1: didn't like their managers. They were suffering all the assistitudes
Speaker 1: in New York had to offer, including the fact that
Speaker 1: several of them was trying out and drugs, including James.
Speaker 1: The band broke up, James decided to go to London.
Speaker 1: He had a girlfriend in London he thought he could
Speaker 1: stay with, so he headed off for London. Danny Korchma said, oh,
Speaker 1: I have a friend in London. If you're there, you
Speaker 1: should in touch with him. Peter Asher, he's okay. Gave
Speaker 1: him my phone number, so that's why, out of the blue,
Speaker 1: I gotta call from this guy with a sort of
Speaker 1: slightly Southern American accent who introduced himself as Danny's friend James,
Speaker 1: and I advantaged him over. He came over and played
Speaker 1: me this tape he'd made a few days before, which
Speaker 1: I went crazy over. Do you remember what songs were
Speaker 1: on that type? Yes, something's wrong, something in the way
Speaker 1: she moves, knocking around the zoo, circle around the sun,
Speaker 1: and not sure what else, And he played me the
Speaker 1: j Then he picked up my guitar and played me
Speaker 1: some thing else for which one one of those songs
Speaker 1: wasn't on the day, and played me something he had
Speaker 1: written more recently, and I was overwhelmed. I thought it
Speaker 1: was some of the best singing, the best guitar playing,
Speaker 1: the most original, you know combination, because he had a
Speaker 1: sort of folky voice and looked like a three chord folky.
Speaker 1: But then he played this complex, beautiful fingerpicking that had
Speaker 1: classical illusions in it. He'd been listening to Segovia and
Speaker 1: Julian Breen. He sang like Sam Cook. He played chords
Speaker 1: that had come from like Manhattan's records, and you know,
Speaker 1: it was a ridiculously great combination. And I told him
Speaker 1: he was wonderful. And and then we had this conversation
Speaker 1: that was really was kind of like this the best
Speaker 1: of my regulation. I said, look, in the strange coincidence,
Speaker 1: I have this new job. I'm head of an off
Speaker 1: for a record label. I can sign people, you know,
Speaker 1: would you like a record deal? Um? And he said yes, please,
Speaker 1: and I love one, And I said great. And then
Speaker 1: I had to explain to him whose label it was,
Speaker 1: and said, let's come in the office and I want
Speaker 1: you to meet everybody. And so I took him in
Speaker 1: the office a few days ag to met the Beatles
Speaker 1: signed him. He was he was the first act signed
Speaker 1: to Apple and the House shortly thereafter. Do you make
Speaker 1: the record quite quickly, I think within a month or two.
Speaker 1: We we spent some time rehearsing, we auditioned, we put
Speaker 1: an ad in the Melody Maker for a bass player,
Speaker 1: drummer and a yard. I mean that seems strange to me,
Speaker 1: especially since you hired the people for the Paul Jones gig. Yes,
Speaker 1: I think we wanted to at the time. I think
Speaker 1: mine stint was that we needed a permanent band so
Speaker 1: we could go out and do gigs. And there was
Speaker 1: no in the band, no thought of bringing Danny in
Speaker 1: the Flying Machine over from you, not at that stage.
Speaker 1: Now I'm not sure why not. But so you had
Speaker 1: that ad, did you get reasonable people? Yes, yeah, we
Speaker 1: had people from the ad because Melody Making all section
Speaker 1: of professional musicians looking for work and vice of us
Speaker 1: and we auditioned. We had a guy called Luis Sonamo
Speaker 1: to play the bass. Um Don Shin played keyboards, and
Speaker 1: oh we didn't have We already had a drumma because
Speaker 1: james best friend, Um Bishop of Ur, Joel O'Brien, who
Speaker 1: was in the Time Machine, was already in London um
Speaker 1: and we loved him, so we hired him. So we
Speaker 1: weren't looking for a drama that's right, We're looking for keyboard,
Speaker 1: I guess, guitar and bass, but I only remember the
Speaker 1: guitar in the basse play. It's all a bit vague,
Speaker 1: but we were hearsed a bunch of songs and that's
Speaker 1: when they got ready to make the album. Also did
Speaker 1: a lot of preparation because I have this idea of
Speaker 1: doing different kinds of arrangements on each track. I was
Speaker 1: very anxious at the time, probably overly anxious the people
Speaker 1: not just take James as a another folky. So I
Speaker 1: wanted to make the tracks special in some way. And
Speaker 1: I have this idea that maybe getting so almost classical
Speaker 1: arrangements with a string cord head here and some horns here,
Speaker 1: and you know, percussion here would be a cool thing
Speaker 1: to do. And I got this friend of mine, Richard Houston,
Speaker 1: who was the classical composing student at the Guildhall, I think,
Speaker 1: and a jazz trumpet player. I had played with him
Speaker 1: in a jazz band very I played jazz. I played
Speaker 1: bass very badly in a jazz band, and but he
Speaker 1: was a very good jazz trumpet player and a very
Speaker 1: good composer. I didn't want to use the straightforward arranger
Speaker 1: I mean Richard Houston enough in an interview I saw
Speaker 1: reading saying I think Peter hied because they didn't know
Speaker 1: much about the Rangers. But actually, of course I did,
Speaker 1: because the Peter and Gordon records all ad used people
Speaker 1: like Jeff Love and very extremely excellent, totally competent popa Rangers.
Speaker 1: But I wanted to see clear of that and go
Speaker 1: a little more classical and different. So that's why I
Speaker 1: had Richard. But the point being, if you listen to
Speaker 1: that album now, parts of it seemed to me to
Speaker 1: be a little over arranged and overproduced in that sense,
Speaker 1: And that's why when it came to the next album,
Speaker 1: I scale everything back a couple of things. Although for
Speaker 1: a long time that was my favorite record, was unavailable
Speaker 1: for years and was tied up in them all the
Speaker 1: after lawsuits and um, it has the segues between cuts, yes,
Speaker 1: and I still certainly believe that to her version of
Speaker 1: something in the way she moves that and there is
Speaker 1: on the Greatest Hits album interesting. But it was not
Speaker 1: successful in the market. Point it was. It got some attention,
Speaker 1: we got some good reviews and stuff like that, but
Speaker 1: but no, it's not a it. So how does he
Speaker 1: jump from Apple to Warner Brothers? Well, we left Apple
Speaker 1: because of Alan Klein. A little bit slower. Yeah, when
Speaker 1: the Beatles you know, Apple was not doing very well
Speaker 1: because it had lurched into a million areas that we're
Speaker 1: not the Beatles, areas of expertise clothing, electronics with mad
Speaker 1: Alex and um film and television and all these other ideas,
Speaker 1: and a lot of money was getting spent. And the
Speaker 1: Beatles had realized that they needed to bring in that
Speaker 1: they wanted to bring in a business hunt show to
Speaker 1: run the whole thing. We already had run casts running
Speaker 1: Apple records. We brought from Liberty Records. Who was We
Speaker 1: decided we needed a proper American record guy, and we
Speaker 1: knew run must be cool because he was married to
Speaker 1: Joan Collins. Just we thought it was brilliant and and
Speaker 1: Joan remains a great friend of mine to this day.
Speaker 1: Ron is sadly no longer with us. But um, they
Speaker 1: couldn't agree on who this business concho should be. Paul
Speaker 1: was suggesting his father in law Leastman, very clever man,
Speaker 1: brilliant lawyer, and John Older this idea that it should
Speaker 1: be Alan Klein. He who Alan moved in on John
Speaker 1: somehow and John was absolutely convinced. He convinced the other
Speaker 1: two Beatles and in the end won the argument I
Speaker 1: knew about Alan Klein. I knew he was essentially kind
Speaker 1: of a crook in my view. I knew him my
Speaker 1: reputation from friends in New York, and so I told
Speaker 1: James I thought this was a really bad idea and
Speaker 1: that we should leave if Alan was coming in Jane.
Speaker 1: James did have one meeting with Alan, shared my overall view,
Speaker 1: and so once we knew Alan was definitely coming, I
Speaker 1: resigned before he came. I think we do have a
Speaker 1: long term deal with James and Apple, though, uh, James
Speaker 1: had to deal with Apple. I didn't have anything I know,
Speaker 1: But how did he get out of that deal? Well?
Speaker 1: He didn't really. I mean at the time, we just left.
Speaker 1: I took the Monster Daves out of the basement, um
Speaker 1: uh and left and I got it. What did you
Speaker 1: do with the tapes? I've got him somewhere, I think
Speaker 1: still this late date, Yeah, I think. I I mean
Speaker 1: we transferred them obviously at some point. Okay, so, but
Speaker 1: when they were a copy master, there were this But
Speaker 1: when you're going to shop the record shop a new deal,
Speaker 1: isn't everybody saying don't you have a deal with Apple? Yes?
Speaker 1: They are, And I didn't know what would happen. Um,
Speaker 1: James did have a sound contract with Apple. I didn't
Speaker 1: have a sound contract with anybody. I just said, you know,
Speaker 1: with James and with the one of the first conversations
Speaker 1: I had was with Joe Smith Warner Brothers. We loved
Speaker 1: Warner Brothers because of their ads. That was the ear
Speaker 1: of the stand corn in text ads and it was
Speaker 1: so brilliant because the ads, and because that was where
Speaker 1: Janie was was where Againerson was on the young ones
Speaker 1: that looked like home to us. Um, Mo Wahton. You
Speaker 1: just said to me, you know, why, how come Joe Smith.
Speaker 1: The answer was, actually at the time, I think Mo
Speaker 1: was or a prize and Joe was Warner with us,
Speaker 1: and I think it was my friend Joe Boyd, Who's
Speaker 1: who's the key character in the White White White Bicycles
Speaker 1: Want Bicycles and and uh exactly and and the incredible
Speaker 1: string man was on a brilliant guy which were also
Speaker 1: on Warner who was one of the sort of token
Speaker 1: Americans in in London for many years. He ran this
Speaker 1: thing called U Foe that was the coolest club every
Speaker 1: week where he used to go and see Pink Floyd
Speaker 1: all the time and stuff like that anyway, Joe Boyd
Speaker 1: very cool guy. He he told me he was working
Speaker 1: with Joe Smith. I guess whatever. Maybe the incredible string
Speaker 1: Ban were Warner by Actual they were that that would
Speaker 1: be why then? So that was it. So I had
Speaker 1: breakfast with Joe Smith at the Continental Hyatt House. He'd
Speaker 1: heard of James, He'd heard of me, you know, I
Speaker 1: prepped him for the meeting. He said, yes, we want
Speaker 1: to sign him. Yes, I think that album is great.
Speaker 1: And I said, well, there's one snag. You have to
Speaker 1: indemnify us against anything that Apple do. And he said done.
Speaker 1: And I think the get it right coming to you
Speaker 1: do that now would be impossible. And you didn't shop
Speaker 1: it anywhere else, didn't shop it. But I did say
Speaker 1: that's the one condition, because I don't want to spot
Speaker 1: from my the artist. I'm just signing as a manager
Speaker 1: getting sued as soon as I do anything. And the
Speaker 1: contract indemnifies us completely against anything that happens. And nothing did.
Speaker 1: Nothing happened. And then, incidentally, I now understand that Aline
Speaker 1: did talk about doing us. I know he spoke publicly
Speaker 1: about it in his Playboy interview. Client's Playboy re view.
Speaker 1: He actually says he has sued us for ten million
Speaker 1: each or something crazy. And and I did once get
Speaker 1: one piece of paper some kind of thing to show
Speaker 1: cause or some stuff that, um, right around the time
Speaker 1: I was getting married and where I was in London
Speaker 1: and got got served some papers the game to some
Speaker 1: English lawyer and was kind of a wait and we
Speaker 1: see what happens next, and nothing did. And but there
Speaker 1: was some kind of filing of notice or something. And
Speaker 1: I did read since then that might have been George
Speaker 1: Harrison that told Alan not to sue us. Um the
Speaker 1: George said, no, that's not what Apple is all about,
Speaker 1: don't do it. And at that point Alan was still
Speaker 1: taking instruction from the Beatles rather than Um, so he didn't.
Speaker 1: So I believe that George Harrison that did her gratitude
Speaker 1: for that, who doesn't really get his do correct. But um,
Speaker 1: those songs on the Sweet Baby James, Yes were those
Speaker 1: written for that album, where some of them written previously,
Speaker 1: I don't think any of those existed before um, so
Speaker 1: they were for the album. And you quite consciously wanted
Speaker 1: to make a more stripped down red Yes, and you
Speaker 1: make the record. How long does it take to make?
Speaker 1: About two weeks? Two weeks very very fast, got seven
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. Okay, we rehearsed every day at my house. Well,
Speaker 1: first I put the band together. UM. By this time
Speaker 1: I had met one of my greatest heroes, Carol King.
Speaker 1: I was a huge Governor King fan. I knew every
Speaker 1: song you've written. And I also by that time I
Speaker 1: had the demos, the screen gems demos of all these
Speaker 1: songs and realized that I loved a piano playing. So
Speaker 1: Danny Korchma introduced me to Carol, who was a friend
Speaker 1: of his. I groveled for a while and then said,
Speaker 1: to look, I love your piano playing. Would you consider
Speaker 1: playing piano on this record? I'm about to make this
Speaker 1: guy James Taylor you don't know yet. She had not
Speaker 1: heard of him, and she said, yes, she would do that.
Speaker 1: Would you mind, you know, because I know you're a
Speaker 1: very big deal songwriter and I know you're about to
Speaker 1: make your own solo record, which she was, And so
Speaker 1: I invited over to my house to meet James, who
Speaker 1: was staying there at the time, and that's when they
Speaker 1: first met. So that was covered the UM. I found
Speaker 1: a druma called Russ Kunkle who had not done a
Speaker 1: studio session before he'd been really he'd been in the
Speaker 1: studio once with a band, some band that David Crosby
Speaker 1: had produced a single with I don't remember the name,
Speaker 1: and so he'd been in the studio, but he never
Speaker 1: done Countrified Uncle. I found him at a rehearsal of
Speaker 1: John Stewart. John Stewart whom you remember, xcor C and Trio,
Speaker 1: great songwriter, cool guy. Never really forgave me. I mean,
Speaker 1: he joked about it all that, but um Russ was
Speaker 1: in his band, Russ Kunkle and Brian garofthel of a
Speaker 1: very good base player. Would John Stewart's band. I went
Speaker 1: to a John Stuart rehearsal. I loved the way Russ
Speaker 1: played and said to him, I'm about to make this record.
Speaker 1: You're the guy, because he he didn't play any Hal
Speaker 1: Blaine fills. All Blaine's genius, but he didn't play any busy,
Speaker 1: complicated fills. He played slow, thoughtful Ringo fills. And I said,
Speaker 1: you're a big Ringo fan. He's absolutely And a lot
Speaker 1: of those films on that record, you know, some of
Speaker 1: the far and rain fills are direct Ringo rip offs,
Speaker 1: you know, which I've told Ringo and how much you
Speaker 1: know they're different, but stylistically you can see where they
Speaker 1: came from. Um and and so that was the drummer.
Speaker 1: I didn't find one bass player that I fell in
Speaker 1: love with. We used a couple of different bass players.
Speaker 1: We used Randy Meisner on a couple of tracks, became
Speaker 1: an eagle, UM used John oh Lord John London on
Speaker 1: a couple of tracks, and then on A Far and
Speaker 1: Rain it's actually bread base Bode base. For that, I
Speaker 1: just asked that the people at the studio. I said,
Speaker 1: who's the great upright basse player in town? And they said, oh,
Speaker 1: you probably want Bobby West and I went okay, they
Speaker 1: said Bobby wild wild West. I went done, that clinches it.
Speaker 1: He's obviously the man for the job. And so Faring
Speaker 1: Rain specifically, because I think it was James's idea to
Speaker 1: use a Bode based, not mine. Brilliant idea. And so
Speaker 1: for that one, we've asked who comes in with Bobby
Speaker 1: wild wild West on his base case and played beautifully
Speaker 1: and and we we I doubled the the Bode basse pot.
Speaker 1: The whole Faring ragn is no electric basis all that
Speaker 1: grinding bass notes which are then doubled to make them
Speaker 1: kind of phazy and interesting. So when you're we're at
Speaker 1: the demo stage, do you realize Fire and Rain is
Speaker 1: going to be a big hit? I knew I loved it.
Speaker 1: I didn't think it was a big hit. Now, okay,
Speaker 1: so they didn't know what was The album is done. Yes,
Speaker 1: you're happy with it. Yes, you give at to Warner Brothers.
Speaker 1: What do they say? I think they loved it? I
Speaker 1: can't remember. I mean they yeah, they were happy. Whether
Speaker 1: they went this is gonna change the means business, which
Speaker 1: it did, which it did, I don't think. But we're happy, Yes,
Speaker 1: and your recollection. How did Fire and Rain become successful gradually?
Speaker 1: I mean, uh, James James out doing every Kenny gig.
Speaker 1: I could find um club. You know, our ambition at
Speaker 1: the time, our definition success would be selling out the
Speaker 1: folk clubs. We could sell out Bedriend in New York,
Speaker 1: main Point in Philadelphia, sell the Door in Washington, Troubadour
Speaker 1: in l A. That was the big time. And if
Speaker 1: you did sell Office's played there for several days. And
Speaker 1: in those days, if you play those clubs, could you
Speaker 1: end up in the black or were you in the red? Um?
Speaker 1: You can end up in the black because you didn't
Speaker 1: have you know, you and James on his own, we
Speaker 1: had no band. So that's how I first saw him
Speaker 1: at the cap at the Capital Theater in Port. For
Speaker 1: a long time we stayed solo and uh I would
Speaker 1: go with him on the road and there was just
Speaker 1: him and me or so that's just him. We'd play
Speaker 1: college gigs where we'd get beds in the dorm because
Speaker 1: we couldn't afford hotels, and and Adam opening for anybody
Speaker 1: would have him. I remember one time got to mc
Speaker 1: gig opening for the Who, and people thought I was crazy,
Speaker 1: and maybe I was, but and and they were right.
Speaker 1: I mean, not everybody paid attention. But for me, my
Speaker 1: position was, look, he's gonna be playing for like ten
Speaker 1: thousand people, you know, um if the front people pay attention,
Speaker 1: you know, it's more than That's more than we're gonna
Speaker 1: stay in the club. And they did. And it literally
Speaker 1: you'd be in the back of the arena and there's
Speaker 1: people talking and making drug deals or whatever, but you
Speaker 1: get near the front and gradually you suddenly are among
Speaker 1: these people going this is great. Who is this guy?
Speaker 1: You know? And that's what How do you end up
Speaker 1: getting hooked up with Linda ron Stop. I think it
Speaker 1: was a couple of years later. Um James was already
Speaker 1: very successful. I was in New York and somebody I
Speaker 1: don't remember who said, you have to go down to
Speaker 1: the Bitter End and see this girl singers. She's amazing.
Speaker 1: They said, she's got the incredible voice, great singer, you
Speaker 1: know where sings barefoot and he's really short shorts and
Speaker 1: it's ridiculously hot. And I went to see her and
Speaker 1: it was all true, every word of it. And and
Speaker 1: then I met her and really discovered she's one of
Speaker 1: the smartest, most charming, most interesting people I've ever met.
Speaker 1: So I was I was in love and and as
Speaker 1: singing was just so incredible, and we spoke. Then she
Speaker 1: was in the middle of making an album. Ah. I
Speaker 1: think initially we had a conversation about maybe I could
Speaker 1: help her with the production of the album, because I
Speaker 1: got involved first as a producer. She was making halfway
Speaker 1: through the album that became Don't Cry Now, the first
Speaker 1: on Asylum. Yeah, she was working with a couple of
Speaker 1: producers who by both had been or were boyfriends UM
Speaker 1: John Boylan and John David Saltha, both excellent producers, but
Speaker 1: it was the whole thing was getting muddled, and the
Speaker 1: muddle of I mean your boyfriend, your producer and all
Speaker 1: that stuff was the thing had dragged on and got
Speaker 1: kind of complicated, and I think my first role was
Speaker 1: helping finish that. And then we did talk about management
Speaker 1: at the time. Was Boylan still the manager at that time? No,
Speaker 1: Boylan was not the manager. Was Herb Cohen, Yeah, whom
Speaker 1: she had a Herb Cohone who managed Frank Zappa and
Speaker 1: his brother Mutt Cohen, the publisher and lawyer, right, which
Speaker 1: is one of the reasons herbcom could have affoord to
Speaker 1: be very ligitious, which he was, which he was because
Speaker 1: he didn't have to pay his lawyer. I mean he
Speaker 1: paid him in some other way, you know. They had
Speaker 1: a piece of the company. And so no, Upcom was
Speaker 1: a lawyer and um the manager the manager. But I
Speaker 1: think they weren't speaking there were Herb become but as
Speaker 1: I said, he was lititios getting out of a deal
Speaker 1: with her Cohne would not be easy. No, it's not Um.
Speaker 1: And at the time I just thought dectarted managing Kate
Speaker 1: Taylor and produced the record with Kate whom I believed
Speaker 1: him very strongly. It was great, great singing still is
Speaker 1: and um so I think I said the time, I
Speaker 1: don't think the practical me to manage you now. And
Speaker 1: but then Kate decided the music business at that stage
Speaker 1: was not for her, and you gotta Withdrew for a bit.
Speaker 1: And at that point I went back to Linda and said, look,
Speaker 1: if he's still interested, let's talk management. We did. She
Speaker 1: asked me to be a manager. Meanwhile, we don't cry now.
Speaker 1: Album had already come out, come and gone. I'm not
Speaker 1: sure of the timing maybe, and because in reality she
Speaker 1: was totally nowhere. She had the hits with the Stone
Speaker 1: Ponies to those hits and then made records for Capital
Speaker 1: that did weren't successful. Well long long time was a
Speaker 1: solo it wasn't it. I thought it was Stone Ponies.
Speaker 1: I think different drum was different drums with Stone Pony whatever,
Speaker 1: But those were career She had one solo hit a
Speaker 1: long long time and and then was making the I
Speaker 1: think I'm not sure we get sold that somewhe and uh,
Speaker 1: but you're right. She then negotiated a way out of
Speaker 1: the hubcoing deal. I took no commissions for the first
Speaker 1: two years in my wow, because he took it all.
Speaker 1: I think because he took it all, UM, something like that.
Speaker 1: I know it didn't make any money for a while,
Speaker 1: and a deal was made that because I said, you
Speaker 1: can't possibly pay two people at once. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: in this for the long haul. Let's get her about
Speaker 1: of the picture. So he got paid off, and and
Speaker 1: him then his manager and producer. I don't know what
Speaker 1: I thyears I spose. So you ultimately make the record,
Speaker 1: the second record for Asylum, which ends up coming out
Speaker 1: on Capitol, which is right, which is a huge juggernaut,
Speaker 1: with the first hit being You're No Good? Um, how
Speaker 1: much credit to the arrangement and of that do we
Speaker 1: give Andrew Gold? I would say the arrangements him and me,
Speaker 1: UM and Kenny Edwards contributed a bit. A great bass
Speaker 1: player was was an original member of the Sun Bunnies
Speaker 1: contributed as well, So UM who found the song. Linda
Speaker 1: and I both knew the song. I think lind had
Speaker 1: sung it before. I think she used to do it
Speaker 1: occasionally in a set, but in a very different arrangement.
Speaker 1: And I knew it, oddly enough, not from the original version,
Speaker 1: not from UM Betty Everett, but from the Swinging Blue
Speaker 1: Jeans who had a number one record I think in
Speaker 1: the UK with it, which I loved, and I then
Speaker 1: went back and of course I had Betty Everetts, but
Speaker 1: Swinging Blue Jeans were one who brought that song to
Speaker 1: my attention. That record is really good. How long does
Speaker 1: it take it a cut? You're no good? I mean
Speaker 1: a few days. We tried it a couple of different ways,
Speaker 1: ended up doing a very constructed, kind of modern in
Speaker 1: that sense version. Andrew played the drums first. I think
Speaker 1: I think we mapped it all out in our heads,
Speaker 1: except that we had a sixteen bars section for the
Speaker 1: solo that was just blank. And I think you're saying
Speaker 1: we will think that's the record we and we left
Speaker 1: it blank. We figured we'd put something in there later.
Speaker 1: And Andrew played the drums, a couple of guitar players.
Speaker 1: Ed Black played real guitar in it. Um and Andrew
Speaker 1: played the world it's a part and but it was
Speaker 1: very constructed. It was very much one thing at a time.
Speaker 1: We might have cut the track drums and guitar or
Speaker 1: something like that. And Kenny Edwards played the bass. That
Speaker 1: might have been our basic track, um, and it was
Speaker 1: all coming up just right how I how I meant,
Speaker 1: And then we did. There was a point where Andrew
Speaker 1: and I said, okay, now let's make something great and
Speaker 1: we sat down and that was the two of us
Speaker 1: figured out that guitar extravaganza that was the solo and
Speaker 1: I was a very long night, um it was. It
Speaker 1: was on all night and um and and we tried
Speaker 1: all these ideas, you know, and Andrew played it. All
Speaker 1: the ideas were I think both of us, um, because
Speaker 1: I had a lot of thoughts about the different tonalities
Speaker 1: we could use, and so did Andrew. And he's brilliant
Speaker 1: of that stuff. So that was totally joined effort. Then
Speaker 1: Linda showed up the next day like lunchtime. We were
Speaker 1: still there. You know, this was the what were we
Speaker 1: in the seventies and it was the cocaine era, and
Speaker 1: and Linda showed up all like scrubbed and clean, and
Speaker 1: we were all like oily and disgusting and and and
Speaker 1: still up and and but immensely proud, and we pledged Linda.
Speaker 1: And she hated it. She hated it. Her vocal was
Speaker 1: already on it. She'd done a vocal. Okay, she hated
Speaker 1: it because she said, to you, it sounds like the Beatles,
Speaker 1: I hate it. And then what happened We said, well,
Speaker 1: it does kind of sound like the Beatles, Yes, but
Speaker 1: that was kind of what we meant, and we love it.
Speaker 1: Tried some other guitar players on this. We tried alternate
Speaker 1: versions of the solo. So how did you convince she
Speaker 1: changed her mind? She she she After a day of
Speaker 1: trying with a couple of guitar plays, Kenny Edwards particular,
Speaker 1: we tried all kinds of other parts, and I was
Speaker 1: doing my best to be patting and encouraging and open.
Speaker 1: But eventually we played at the other, the older one
Speaker 1: a couple of times said we know you. She didn't
Speaker 1: know what you're You're right, it's great. I'm sorry I
Speaker 1: was wrong. Okay, but when it's done done, you know
Speaker 1: you have a smash. Yes I did. Um, I've definitely
Speaker 1: had that. If this isn't the number one record, I
Speaker 1: don't know what is feeling. And the record comes out,
Speaker 1: goes to number one and then the rest of the
Speaker 1: album blows up. Yes, and you know, I'm sure you
Speaker 1: had no anticipation would become this big. No, we didn't,
Speaker 1: And the interesting thing was because that's when it ended
Speaker 1: up on Capital, his Capital of this bizarre deal where
Speaker 1: they got to choose which record to take. And I
Speaker 1: remember very well day Al Corey came by the studio
Speaker 1: to listen to the record. That was his contractual right
Speaker 1: and and he at the time he said, um, when
Speaker 1: he had you a new good he said, I personally
Speaker 1: guarantee you a number one record. This is kind of
Speaker 1: a tu question about asking. Anyway, the record was a
Speaker 1: huge juggernaut on Capitol. Subsequent albums were on Asylum. Do
Speaker 1: you think that Capitol did a better job for you
Speaker 1: than Asylum? Maybe Um Salm was a great label. They
Speaker 1: did very well for us, no question. But was al
Speaker 1: really determined to show them? Was there a moment when
Speaker 1: he told David Geffen this is the record I want.
Speaker 1: I'm going through this album and it's going to be gigantic,
Speaker 1: you know, And of course David, who's genius as we
Speaker 1: all know, came out very well out of it. All.
Speaker 1: You know, people are gonna how can you give away
Speaker 1: that record? He still made a lot of money off it.
Speaker 1: Al Corey and his team did all the work, and
Speaker 1: I was one of the great promotion men of all time. Literally,
Speaker 1: you know those are He's the one who made Greece
Speaker 1: and Saturday Night Fever. Yes he you know, Asylum David's
Speaker 1: level did not have a promosion guy that good of
Speaker 1: that determined there was nobody that right. And I was
Speaker 1: a maniac, you know. He was one of those guys
Speaker 1: up on the phone at six am to all these guys,
Speaker 1: you know, on every Tuesday or Wednesday, whatever day it was.
Speaker 1: I don't remember. There was a big deal, you know,
Speaker 1: and yelling and screaming and and just to go back
Speaker 1: to the delivered the so Geffen still had a piece
Speaker 1: of the record even though it was on capit. Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: that was something that wasn't going and and and and
Speaker 1: then also of course he had Linda, so of course
Speaker 1: for the ensuing He's coming off a number one album.
Speaker 1: So all of a sudden you're Mr West Coast. Yes,
Speaker 1: so you end up with you make a record with
Speaker 1: J D. Salther, Yes? And are you the manager there too? No?
Speaker 1: Who else did you manage in that era? Um? Uh,
Speaker 1: Joanie at some point after Elliott, Carol King, at some point,
Speaker 1: um Randy Newman and a few other people, some of
Speaker 1: whom did were not successful. Um, it wasn't only it
Speaker 1: nothing is. But yeah, no, I didn't manage obviously because
Speaker 1: you know j D was part of Evings Empire and
Speaker 1: and but I produced j D. I produced Andrew Gold.
Speaker 1: You know, So how did you have time to be
Speaker 1: both a record producer and a manager. Had a very
Speaker 1: good team at my company. I had some great people,
Speaker 1: cagill Ara Coslow, woman called Lorie, Gloria Boys and some others. Um,
Speaker 1: and I worked all the time, which I like to
Speaker 1: do anyway, I still do. And so how did it
Speaker 1: fade out? Um, Peter as your management? Well, you know,
Speaker 1: we didn't really fade out. I mean, that's the good
Speaker 1: part about it, actually, because I specifically quit the Rash management,
Speaker 1: I mean when it was still doing well. And um,
Speaker 1: Tommy Mottola offered me a job at Tony and I
Speaker 1: took it. And at the time I sort of maybe
Speaker 1: half hope the Peter Rash manager would survive without me,
Speaker 1: But it didn't. And that should in a minute. So
Speaker 1: you you've just seen that move. Basically, the offer was
Speaker 1: so good. The offer was good. The was the one
Speaker 1: thing I haven't done was be a record company. And
Speaker 1: I did like the idea of not having to worry
Speaker 1: about whether you're gonna make money on you know the
Speaker 1: fact that someone saying we'll pay you a couple of
Speaker 1: million dollars and you get a big old expense again.
Speaker 1: And that was the golden age when recompanies are making
Speaker 1: a fortune, you know, because the CD replaced me. Yeah nothing.
Speaker 1: They they persuaded everyone to buy their intact recordrection all
Speaker 1: over something they dream of. Now you know they could
Speaker 1: five one be it? No? So what what What was
Speaker 1: the experience like working at Sony? It was great? I
Speaker 1: mean I loved it. I learned a lot um including
Speaker 1: he was learning that some of the things as artists
Speaker 1: and managers, we don't believe record everybody's were up to
Speaker 1: they were, you know, even the most obvious things that
Speaker 1: they don't tell you. Oh there is no priorities, you know,
Speaker 1: we working right And then now then you're in a
Speaker 1: meeting going fight for this one, don't worry about that one,
Speaker 1: you know, and some poor aunts is just getting pushed
Speaker 1: off the desk. And then you go from Sony to Sanctuary, right. Yes,
Speaker 1: I left Sony when my contract ran out and was
Speaker 1: not renewed. I was a consultant for a few years,
Speaker 1: but ultimately was not renewed. And that then finally the
Speaker 1: Holmtola ear of course, and everyone changed, and then I
Speaker 1: was sanctuary for a while. Yes, and so but unlike
Speaker 1: many people of your vintage, you're still working quite hard.
Speaker 1: I am. So you're in probably involved with Steve Martin
Speaker 1: and his musicals. It saw us a little bit about that,
Speaker 1: well that began. I mean, I'm in a friend of
Speaker 1: he's for a long time, kind of forever. I mean, Steve,
Speaker 1: let's remember open for Linda Ronson at some point and uh,
Speaker 1: but we would have been off and on, but we
Speaker 1: sort of renewed our friendship a bit in in in
Speaker 1: some way or another. And I was having dinner at
Speaker 1: his house in New York and he played me some
Speaker 1: songs that he and Needy Proquelled created. He'd written some
Speaker 1: banjo pieces, she'd taken them away and written some songs
Speaker 1: kind of on top of them. So they'd co written
Speaker 1: these very good songs. And he played me to them
Speaker 1: to me over dinner, and I told him that they
Speaker 1: should make a record together. So this is great stuff.
Speaker 1: You definitely should make an album, and his how you
Speaker 1: should do it, and I said, don't make it like
Speaker 1: a pure blue grass album. You can experiment with other textures,
Speaker 1: but let's yes, have violins on there, but make it
Speaker 1: like strings and you know, we can bring some other
Speaker 1: players and you know, not make it just a blue
Speaker 1: bross record. And I was actually on the plane home
Speaker 1: the next day when he emailed mes and you want
Speaker 1: to produce the album, and I went yes please, and
Speaker 1: well yes, yes, yes, actually emailed. I remember, I have
Speaker 1: the email, and so that was that. We made that
Speaker 1: record for Rounder and I did what I proposed and
Speaker 1: was at esperanzispolding plane. It had little orchestral moments. I
Speaker 1: made it not blue dress and the album did very well,
Speaker 1: people liked and so on, and so that because that
Speaker 1: I made the second album, I got involved with the
Speaker 1: musical Bright Star, produced the album of the soundtrack UH
Speaker 1: Stays cost album and so on, and I just finished
Speaker 1: more recently probably Dross album with Stephen the step Steve
Speaker 1: Canyon Rangers and so on. So because we found we
Speaker 1: really enjoyed working together, and I was music supervisor on
Speaker 1: the show and all this stuff, and we become even
Speaker 1: much closer friends, which is great. So I'm yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: doing all that. Not to the degree you can talk
Speaker 1: about it. What else were you involved? Well? Involved with
Speaker 1: this Elton John project. Um, I did. Elton asked me
Speaker 1: to do a few years ago a cover album covering
Speaker 1: Goodbye ol Bick Road onto the thirtieth verse anniversary of
Speaker 1: that album, and on that one I got to work
Speaker 1: with Miguel which was great. I did a track with
Speaker 1: with with Ed Sheeran, which is when Ed and I
Speaker 1: became friends because I sort of I didn't discover him
Speaker 1: in any sense, but I become a huge fan when
Speaker 1: he first made it in the UK before it happened
Speaker 1: over a year and got in touch with him and said, look,
Speaker 1: I know a good singer songwriter when I know, and
Speaker 1: you're it, you know you're you're it for this generation.
Speaker 1: I think you're amazing and you're going to be very successful.
Speaker 1: And I got touched him through Elton who whose management
Speaker 1: company manages Ed and so on, so I ended up
Speaker 1: producing a track with him and a lot of other people.
Speaker 1: I love it and I forget it. El Spennyway, well
Speaker 1: that was sorry. That was a Buddy Holly tribute album.
Speaker 1: Monthly up to two But um fall that boy, a
Speaker 1: lot of other great acts and Elton was very happy
Speaker 1: with the results. So he asked me to do another
Speaker 1: album for this fiftieth anniversary of him and Bernie's Overall
Speaker 1: and the Ship, which is I've done a bunch of
Speaker 1: tracks for that. Now I think that's not officially we're
Speaker 1: not officially announcing news on it yet, but lots of
Speaker 1: great people are doing tracks for that. There's a country
Speaker 1: version which I didn't go executive produced, and there's a
Speaker 1: pop version, which I did executive produced, and there's a
Speaker 1: lot of great people. So there are two different albums,
Speaker 1: pop and country, and they're totally different tracks. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think there's one song that's on both as op post
Speaker 1: to mut Lang, who made three versions of the same
Speaker 1: album with and Twain. That's right, yes, so generally does
Speaker 1: not cross over of songs. But also because if you
Speaker 1: look at the entire catalog of cross is a huge
Speaker 1: collection of amazing songs just to choose from. So if
Speaker 1: we look at the you've worked with some of the
Speaker 1: most legendary acts, and I you know, they literally people
Speaker 1: overstate things in this business, but these are literally classic acts.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that acts have a period of
Speaker 1: success that in most cases is not replicated. Is it
Speaker 1: about the businesses about the talent. I'm interested in your theories.
Speaker 1: I think there's something about discovering someone new that cannot
Speaker 1: be equalled, you know. Um so yeah, I've we did
Speaker 1: a lot of acts, would would do whom that would apply?
Speaker 1: I mean some of them, like Share actually did have
Speaker 1: two legs, you know, miraculously jogs. Although it's always people
Speaker 1: who don't write their row material to have that second leg,
Speaker 1: it's true, it's true. And Um, I mean Diana Rosso course,
Speaker 1: I had some very big hits with UM separate from
Speaker 1: and subsequent to the golden age of Dina Rousse and
Speaker 1: the Supremes. So so two careers as possible. But I
Speaker 1: do think that there's something about that period of have
Speaker 1: you heard this guy or this woman? They're amazing? You
Speaker 1: know they did this that you know, when I did
Speaker 1: at ten Thousand of Maniacs and everyone discovered how great
Speaker 1: Natalie Merchant was. She's still great and people still love
Speaker 1: her and she still sells out all over the place,
Speaker 1: or Stevie Wonder or anybody, you know. Inevitably it settles
Speaker 1: in to period of everyone knows you great, everyone comes
Speaker 1: to see you, but then not as instantly a new record.
Speaker 1: It must be said, you know, because they think that
Speaker 1: was your golden age and it may not be replicated.
Speaker 1: I also have a theory. You know, all the artists
Speaker 1: who have been successful are not fully formed people. They
Speaker 1: have holes in their personalities, identities they need filled through
Speaker 1: the music and the adulation. And I believe they have
Speaker 1: a subconscious idea that when they become successful, their lives
Speaker 1: will work. And then when they ultimately do become successful
Speaker 1: and their lives are not ultimately any different, somehow they
Speaker 1: can't write that material anymore. Now that that suddenly makes sense,
Speaker 1: I mean, there is that moment because all the people
Speaker 1: who tell you in advance being rich and successful doesn't
Speaker 1: solve everything exactly, especially when you're an artist. Yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: but tragically it doesn't. But in other hand, being rich
Speaker 1: and successful is a whole of better than being poor.
Speaker 1: If you're thinking all day about putting food on the table,
Speaker 1: paying your car insurance, it's great to have money in
Speaker 1: your box, exactly exactly. So so I think, um, I mean,
Speaker 1: all the people were talking about been singularly and amazingly successful,
Speaker 1: and and they all wanted it badly, very even when
Speaker 1: you know, in James's case, he was disconcerted by it.
Speaker 1: He wasn't expecting it necessarily, you know, because he's quite
Speaker 1: a shy person. But did he deep down wanted Of
Speaker 1: course he did, you know, of course he did. You
Speaker 1: don't get famous by accident, You really don't. Okay. Another question,
Speaker 1: since you've literally lived through the whole arc, really starting
Speaker 1: with the Beatles, I'm gonna put a point blank and
Speaker 1: you can wiggle as much as you want. Is today's
Speaker 1: music as good as it was in the classic era? Yes?
Speaker 1: It is? Yes. Expand upon that, I think it's partly nostalgia.
Speaker 1: I think it's it's uh. If you look at the
Speaker 1: number of brilliant people out there now making remarkable records
Speaker 1: I do, and people say, well, they won't stand out,
Speaker 1: I bet they will. I think it a two examples
Speaker 1: one other Mark Runson. Um, I look at it differently.
Speaker 1: I mean you especially talked earlier in the podcast about
Speaker 1: living in the UK with one TV channel, limited music whatever.
Speaker 1: In the sixties, the records were all we had, the
Speaker 1: records and the radio. In addition, we had a homogeneous
Speaker 1: society is a strong middle class, okay, and the middle
Speaker 1: class values. There were all these things about saying no
Speaker 1: whereas today everybody says yes. One thing we do know,
Speaker 1: I would say, is is is as important as music is?
Speaker 1: It does not drive the culture the way it did.
Speaker 1: That's in the sixties and seventies. That's true. Now is
Speaker 1: it you therestion? Is it as good? I realized these
Speaker 1: are different questions. Is it as influentialized, old pervasive and
Speaker 1: as culturally relevant? No? I think you're absolutely right, because
Speaker 1: it's so damn much of it. I mean, it's everywhere,
Speaker 1: and there's so much other stuff as well, and it's
Speaker 1: all accessible all the time, um, which is cool, you know,
Speaker 1: But it does mean that it's going to be really
Speaker 1: hard for someone to take over the world the way
Speaker 1: the Beatles did or something. And I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's even possible. It seems like it's probably not actually,
Speaker 1: I think though, because uh Adele when during the CD
Speaker 1: era before it faded during one she sold ten times
Speaker 1: the number of CDs of anybody else, literally, yes, And
Speaker 1: so then it was positive by Jason Flamm, Well, is
Speaker 1: she's selling ten million in an arrow when everybody's selling
Speaker 1: one million in the arrow? When everybody was selling ten million,
Speaker 1: would she have sold a hundred million? So the question
Speaker 1: becomes and what is she selling. She's selling very traditional things, songs, melody,
Speaker 1: good voice, and in a world where it's about winners
Speaker 1: and losers. Could someone be that big again? I mean no,
Speaker 1: because of the of all the diversions, I'm not sure,
Speaker 1: but I think someone can be bigger than we presently have.
Speaker 1: But anything else I'm not talking literally today, but generally
Speaker 1: speaking that you're excited about culturally politically. I'm so happy
Speaker 1: that they're making great movies, even though we all thought
Speaker 1: television was taking over. You know, really, so you're more
Speaker 1: of a movie guy than a TV like both No,
Speaker 1: no TV. I love the fact TV has gotten great.
Speaker 1: I mean the fact there's so many great TV series,
Speaker 1: as you've written so convincingly and correctly. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: more great TV than you can possibly watch. Literally, I
Speaker 1: mean like literally you've had it all day. But because
Speaker 1: of that, I thought that might mean the death of movies,
Speaker 1: And yet this year is three of a really really
Speaker 1: good movies. Well how do you end up seeing these
Speaker 1: movies at home? Where do you go to the theater?
Speaker 1: I went to the theater to see a few of them,
Speaker 1: I mean my favorite ones. Uh, Ladybird Florida Project three billboards,
Speaker 1: so Rolos the movie theaters, and they're all great. You know, Well,
Speaker 1: the problem becomes matter. I found a couple of things
Speaker 1: when I go. It's so different from the seventies, you know,
Speaker 1: in in today, all the actions inside the house was
Speaker 1: supposed to outside. Yes, So in the sixties and seventies
Speaker 1: even eighties, you were in the house, I gotta get
Speaker 1: out of the house and you would go and you
Speaker 1: would go to have the theater. So now you're at
Speaker 1: the house and you're looking, well, the movie is starting
Speaker 1: at you know, seven thirty. I gotta calculate the drive point,
Speaker 1: and I find when I get to the theater, I'm
Speaker 1: too revd up. I can't quite slow down and get
Speaker 1: to the groove. Whereas when I watched something on the
Speaker 1: flat screen, whether it be a movie or television, I'm
Speaker 1: ready to watch then. And I think when we go,
Speaker 1: you know, I think the movie business is upside down
Speaker 1: on this when we go to day and date at home,
Speaker 1: especially with a lot of excitement. I mean, like the
Speaker 1: new Star Wars movie. I have zero interested in that, okay,
Speaker 1: but if it had been day and date, I want
Speaker 1: to watch it just so I could run around town
Speaker 1: to talk about. And I'm a huge Greta Girl Wig fan, Okay,
Speaker 1: and certainly if that am in day and date, I
Speaker 1: would have watched it first day, okay, But planning out
Speaker 1: the theater, etcetera, etcetera, it may happen. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know, especially as everyone's home set up gets bedroom better.
Speaker 1: I mean this new crazy Samsung TV called The Wall,
Speaker 1: and I saw that, you know the interested Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean wow, maybe maybe we'll never leave the house.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, let's hope we do. But we
Speaker 1: do movies, great television and the Again, I mean, nobody says, ah,
Speaker 1: the movie directs is as good as they used to
Speaker 1: because clearly there are, you know. But the only thing
Speaker 1: is is we're in a different era, both in music
Speaker 1: and movies. It's not the tour era. I certainly remember
Speaker 1: you talk about the era when you made Sweet Baby, James,
Speaker 1: the deal with Warner Brothers would be you make the record,
Speaker 1: you can, they put it out with no input whatever.
Speaker 1: That is not the world today. The same thing with movies,
Speaker 1: you know, do they would tell Delta what to do?
Speaker 1: I bet they don't write what about your I mean,
Speaker 1: they don't tell him what to do do they or
Speaker 1: do they? You know, all those deals are unique, and
Speaker 1: if you get enough power, if the movie is uncommercial,
Speaker 1: they always have something in the contract unless you find
Speaker 1: the money yourself. It's like, you know, what, do you
Speaker 1: Allen find some money himself. But these other people, I've
Speaker 1: always heard different stories. But I mean, I know Terry
Speaker 1: Gilliams rand of mine and he's notoriously exactly gotten that
Speaker 1: battled multiple tact. But it's about I am very much
Speaker 1: about the pure expression of the artists. And even though
Speaker 1: we live in this collaborative era, I believe when it's singular,
Speaker 1: that's one of the great things about music in that
Speaker 1: you get the direct vision. That's what makes it more
Speaker 1: powerful to me than movies, because you get the collaborative
Speaker 1: it's not quite as genuine. Frequently I think I do
Speaker 1: miss that here. I mean, if you work on the
Speaker 1: record now, you you definitely expected to be a and
Speaker 1: our involvement, and even if there isn't during you know
Speaker 1: that will be as dons is delivered the single or
Speaker 1: and all that stuff. And as they say. It's one
Speaker 1: thing to say where's the single, which one could say, okay,
Speaker 1: you need a commercial track, but when they start weighing
Speaker 1: in on this other stuff. Yeah, it makes you crazy
Speaker 1: because they don't really know or the filtration system is
Speaker 1: so different, and there's such a separation between artists and
Speaker 1: business people. This is another thing that bothers me today
Speaker 1: because too many people will want to be business people.
Speaker 1: That's a completely different mentality. Yes, it is. No, you're right,
Speaker 1: I mean that is scary um, you know. And and
Speaker 1: they do it. I mean, I know they didn't even
Speaker 1: do it, you know. I mean, it's just's astonish you
Speaker 1: when you think about it. If anyone's proved his ability
Speaker 1: to do it completely on his own and makes and
Speaker 1: not only that, not only for himself, writing songs for
Speaker 1: other I mean, the thing is unbelievable. Conventionally, go back
Speaker 1: to the uh the world of England. They would build
Speaker 1: people up to tear them down. Yes, the fact that
Speaker 1: Ed Sharon is not nominated for Album of the Year,
Speaker 1: it's criminal. It's I don't think the Grammys have any value.
Speaker 1: But if you want any gravitas, they dragged the cool
Speaker 1: aid of the reaction, whereas this guy has literally the
Speaker 1: biggest song of the year. Yeah it's either that or Posito. No,
Speaker 1: but literally is the biggest track on Spotify. Still in
Speaker 1: an arrow, when there's so much song of the record,
Speaker 1: of the album of the it's the lemount of especial.
Speaker 1: Evil three is completely but he is. Stuff will be
Speaker 1: remembered when the Lord album has already been forgotten. But
Speaker 1: in an arrow where everything happens at home. I want
Speaker 1: to thank you for coming here to Venice being on
Speaker 1: the podcast. It was great. We could go off forever,
Speaker 1: but we gotta let our audience go and you go.
Speaker 1: Thanks again, they have Peter Rasher for appearing here on
Speaker 1: the Bob Left Sets podcast. Until next time, my plice
Speaker 1: to thank you Bob here. I want to thank everyone
Speaker 1: for listening to this episode. Please subscribe to the podcast,
Speaker 1: leave comments and tell your friends we have some great
Speaker 1: guests lined up. No topic is off limits. Go to
Speaker 1: left sets dot com and thanks as always for listening
Speaker 1: until next week. Don't know exactly