1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 2: Chuck and there's Jerry, and this is stuff you should Know. 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 2: And I had to say we didn't have the most 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 2: auspicious start. Just now, Chuck, I stepped on you at 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: the countdown for us to sink that's not a good sign. 7 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 2: Don't you think that's not a good sign. 8 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: I think if you look at it another way, we 9 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: were in sync because we were both kind of trying 10 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:35,959 Speaker 1: to say the same thing. 11 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 2: Wow, that was a silver lining. 12 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:39,919 Speaker 1: How's that? 13 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: There's not been any better in sync since lant Spass 14 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 2: and justin Timberlake. We're running around together. 15 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: We should preface this, by the way, we're doing an 16 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: episode today on six, the United Kingdom's Secret Intelligence Service. 17 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 2: Is that how you pronounce it? 18 00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: Six? What do you say? 19 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 2: Mix? That's what I've been saying in my head at least. 20 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: Oh no, yeah, that is an inauspicious beginning then, for sure. 21 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: But you know, this is a little at risk being 22 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: a little disjointed, because if you kind of went down 23 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: every rabbit hole that we speak about here, we'd be 24 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: here for days. 25 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, one of the things that lets us off 26 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 2: the hook though, that I found and I'm sure Kyle 27 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 2: who helped us with this. We had our man in 28 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 2: Britain to make him an agent in US officers, right, 29 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 2: because he was given US intel on six. If you 30 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 2: go and just start researching it, especially if you just 31 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 2: type in six, they've done a pretty good job of 32 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 2: keeping search results pretty sanitized. Yeah, Like I would say, 33 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 2: out of the top twenty results, two are not official 34 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 2: six pages, So it's kind of hard to research them, 35 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: especially considering they've only been publicly recoged nineties. Is actually 36 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 2: existing since the mid. 37 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: Nineties, Yeah, nineteen nineties. That is, they were the there 38 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: are the oldest operating continuously, that is, operating foreign intelligence 39 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: gathering organization anywhere in the world. And like I said, 40 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: they they're you know, if you're American, you can think 41 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: of I six as sort of their CIA. And in fact, 42 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: our own CIA was born out of not out of 43 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: I six, but they had a lot to do with 44 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: how we did things. 45 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, we use them as a kind of a model. 46 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go. That's a very clean way to 47 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: say that. 48 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 2: So there's two things that I six does and that 49 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 2: really does kind of get it across. They're like the 50 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 2: Britain's equivalent of the CIA, or better yet, the CIA 51 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 2: is America's equivalent of I six. So they gather intelligence, 52 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 2: and they gather internationally abroad. There's also MI I five, 53 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 2: which you could say is roughly equivalent in the US 54 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 2: to the FBI. They do domestic stuff, but I six 55 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 2: is concerned about everything else in the world. And by 56 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 2: gathering intelligence, they usually use two methods or they gather Yeah, 57 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,959 Speaker 2: two methods. Once human intelligence, which is good old fashioned 58 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 2: spying using people who are secretly spying on their own 59 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 2: governments or whatever. And then the other signal intelligence, which 60 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: is intercepting communications. And I saw that another intelligence firm, 61 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 2: I guess in the UK, the Government Communications Headquarters GHQ. 62 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 2: They seem to do most of the signals intelligence, while 63 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 2: six still does most of the human intelligence. Yeah, but 64 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 2: I think like if they capture an email or something, 65 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 2: they don't just delete it because they don't do signals intelligence. 66 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 2: They're still going to use it. 67 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: Not my office delete right now, my job. We call 68 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: them six. The official name, like I said at the beginning, 69 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: is the Secret Intelligence Service or the SIS. That's what 70 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: they became in nineteen twenty, but we call it because 71 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: that was the call sign that they adopted in World 72 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: War Two, And you know, let's be honest people here 73 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,119 Speaker 1: I six and they identify it with intelligence a lot 74 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: because of Ian Fleming and James Bond and lacarr and 75 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: Smiley a couple of you know, in James Bond's case, 76 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: maybe thinly veiled literary figures. I'm not sure about Smiley. 77 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: I don't know much about lacar Is Smiley based on 78 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: someone that you know of. 79 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 2: I don't know. My dad was big time into John leccaray, 80 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 2: but I never have been. 81 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: Is it Lacara? I don't know. 82 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: I've heard it. I think it's probably both ways. I mean, 83 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 2: unless you're his mom. I'm sure there's just one way 84 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 2: to say. If you're his mom, but you know he's dead, 85 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 2: he doesn't care. 86 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: How about Lee Carrey? No perfect But I, like you 87 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: said earlier, you know, it's kind of challenging to gather 88 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: intelligence on I six as a podcaster because for the 89 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 1: longest time, they would just story any documents they had that, 90 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: you know, weren't still useful to them. They weren't like, hey, 91 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: let's keep this on file, because one day somebody might 92 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: ask for this and maybe want to see it. They'll 93 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: be like, no, we don't need that anymore, and we're 94 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: a secret organization, so let's just throw it in the 95 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: old burner. And in the nineteen sixties they started officially 96 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: keeping historical records, and then eventually in the two thousands, 97 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: for their one hundredth anniversary, they hired a guy named 98 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: Keith Jeffrey to write its history up to nineteen forty nine. 99 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and apparently even still today, that's where their official 100 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 2: history ends, nineteen forty nine. Anything after that, don't ask 101 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 2: Jack or else. They'll take you somewhere and render you. Yeah, 102 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 2: politely they will. So we should probably say that I 103 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: six started and I think when we did our Kim 104 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 2: Philby episode, yeah, I said that six stood for the 105 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 2: Ministry of Intelligence, but it actually is military intelligence, which 106 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: is I think, like you said, what it grew out 107 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 2: of originally. But the whole thing started there was a scare, 108 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:10,119 Speaker 2: a German spy scare in Great Britain in the turn 109 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 2: of the last century. Germany was this imperial power that 110 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 2: was rising, so there was reason to be scared of them. 111 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 2: But really the whole reason came down to this guy 112 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 2: named William Lechwe. He was a totally made up adventurer 113 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 2: soldier of fortune who was just as patriotic as you 114 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 2: could get. He made up this huge backstory for himself 115 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 2: to give himself legitimacy, but really he was just weaving 116 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 2: these yarns saying essentially that Britain is sleeping right now 117 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 2: and it's loaded with German spies and if we don't 118 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 2: wake up, we're gonna get taken over by Germany. And 119 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: it just hit this perfect nerve in the British public, 120 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 2: so much so that it directly led to the formation 121 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 2: of what would become six and five. 122 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, all in Unison they heard this and went, well, 123 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: we can't have that, so they got going the Secret 124 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: Service bureaus who originally housed both including I five, and 125 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: they were pretty important, you know, aka the Bureau known 126 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: as the Bureau because they had complete autonomy and they 127 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: also had plausible deniability, so they would sort of act 128 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: as a go between. If there was a government official 129 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: doing some you know, spy business, the Bureau could step 130 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: in and kind of provide cover as a screen for them. 131 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. Apparently, even though they are now publicly acknowledged by 132 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:41,239 Speaker 2: the government as existing that hasn't changed very much still today, 133 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: Like they do not. You can't, as a government official 134 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 2: go to MI six and be like, I demand these 135 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 2: records of your torture program in the Iraq war, right, 136 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 2: They'll just say, we don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, 137 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 2: we're not even having this conversation. And that's what. They 138 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 2: don't have the kind of political and legal hamstringing that 139 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 2: the CIA has. It's much less of a bureaucracy, and 140 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 2: so they can do things that say, like the CIA 141 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 2: legally couldn't do it. They have a lot of legal 142 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 2: cover in Great Britain. 143 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder what their version of FOYA is, like 144 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: a Freedom of Information Act request or even if they 145 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: even have that, or if they're just like, sorry, don't ask. 146 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, they just call it fo right. 147 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: Oh boy, I wish that was a man. If we 148 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: had written that out as a comedy duo, it couldn't 149 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: have been more perfect. 150 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 2: Thanks. I think we did really good too. 151 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, So let's talk a little bit about their first chief, 152 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: Sir Mansfield. Coming. It was pretty much a one person 153 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: show at the beginning of the operation, and Coming was 154 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: that guy staffed fully, you know, with gentlemen, as they 155 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: called him. If you were a woman at the time, 156 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: you might get work as a typist or secretary. But 157 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 1: although that would change in not too long. 158 00:08:57,920 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 2: After, maybe like fifty years. 159 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, I guess so. But he was sort of 160 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: a the kind of guy you would make a movie about. 161 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: He was a race car driver, he was a pilot, 162 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: He could drive a boat with a plum. He loved spycraft. 163 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: He got into it. He signed off his C for 164 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: his last name. He apparently he wrote in Green Inc. 165 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: Which his successors have continued doing today, writing in that 166 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: Green Inc. 167 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 2: And they're all called C too. It's the title for 168 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 2: the chief of I six. 169 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,599 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. And they it was like like M and Q, 170 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: like all those things from James Bond, Like most of 171 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: those things are real. They use numbers and letters and 172 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 1: it's not just made up for fictional purposes. No. 173 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 2: In Q, that was the scientist who would come up 174 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 2: with all these amazing devices and gadgets and everything. And 175 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 2: as we'll see, I six has gotten way more talkative publicly. 176 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 2: They're trying to like kind of recruit more and more people, 177 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 2: so they're giving, you know, interviews, even though their names 178 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 2: are anonymous and one of them said, like, we have 179 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 2: those gadgets, but they're even better than what James Bond has. 180 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: No, It's like really, yeah, So this guy coming, he 181 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: had an incident in nineteen fourteen where he earned this 182 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: probably sounds like lore to me, but he had a 183 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: car crash in France in nineteen fourteen, very sadly, his 184 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: son was killed, and this is how he lost his 185 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: left foot. And the reason the lore was so important 186 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: was because the legend was the only way he escaped 187 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: was by amputating that foot himself. Sort of like who 188 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 1: was the guy in real life that they made the 189 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: Danny Boil It was stuck in the rock. 190 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:42,839 Speaker 2: I don't remember his name, but yeah. 191 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, but supposedly he you know, as the story goes, 192 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: he cut off his own foot with a pen knife 193 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: just to escape. 194 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 2: I think just the fact that people that became a 195 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 2: legend around him says a lot about who he is. 196 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 1: Oh totally. 197 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 2: If I were in a car wreck and I lost 198 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 2: my foot, no one made a legend that said I 199 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 2: cut my own foot off with a pen knife to escape, 200 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 2: Like it just he just wouldn't make that up, and 201 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 2: I would believe it. This guy at least it was believable. 202 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, legend had has it. Josh wailed and cried for 203 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: hours until the ambulance finally arrived and they said, you know, 204 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: you could probably just have backed out of this thing 205 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 1: on your own, right. 206 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 2: They're like, it's really just gonna bruise, is all right. 207 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 2: So there's one other thing. There's there's a lot to 208 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 2: talk about. Like you said, the guy could definitely deserve 209 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 2: his own movie if it hasn't been made multiple times already. 210 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 2: But one of the other legendary things associated with him 211 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 2: is like he was really into spycraft, Like he came 212 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 2: up with disguises. He would like disguise himself and go 213 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 2: walk around London and see if any of his people 214 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 2: would recognize him. And he was I don't want to 215 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 2: say obsessed, but he was really into the idea of 216 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 2: invisible ink, and he searched high and low to find 217 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 2: a good invisible ink that couldn't be detected through standard methods. 218 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: I don't know who came up with this idea, but 219 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 2: somehow it came around that seaman can be used very 220 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 2: effectively as an invisible ink. And I saw that somebody 221 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 2: put it. The supply is renewable. 222 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, so he must have just searched high and not low, right, yeah, renewable. 223 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: There's some I mean, it gets a little grosser. Shall 224 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 1: we even cover this in more detail? 225 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 2: Yes? 226 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: Okay. Apparently he had a colleague that reported about the 227 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: man in. One of our men in Copenhagen stocked it 228 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: in a bottle for his letters, and it stanks so 229 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: bad that they had to tell him that a fresh 230 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: operation was necessary for each letter. Wow. 231 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, we had to say that, and. 232 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: He said, no problem. 233 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Wow, thank you exactly. So you want to 234 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 2: take a break, or you want to dive into World 235 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 2: War one era. 236 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: Let's take a break. That's a good little table setting. 237 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: So we'll come back and talk about talk about World 238 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: War one right after this. 239 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 2: So, by the time World War one rolled around, what 240 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 2: was it, nineteen eleven? I think I'm sure I'm wrong, 241 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 2: and we're going to get a bunch of emails. But 242 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 2: let's just say for sake of argument, it was nineteen eleven. 243 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 2: This is just a couple of years after the Bureau 244 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 2: was formed and Circumbing was, you know, running around doing 245 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 2: his thing. But by this time, he yeah, writing letters 246 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 2: of invisible ink all over the place. By this time, though, 247 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: he cultivated some sources already in Germany. He had one 248 00:13:55,280 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 2: guy named B. He was seeing this first source, B, 249 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 2: who would report on you know, comings and goings on 250 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 2: the coast and the harbor and their ship sizes and 251 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 2: how many ships are in their fleet. And although they 252 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 2: totally dropped the ball on Germany invading neutral Belgium, which 253 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 2: was a big deal, Yeah, they still managed to give 254 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 2: them a lot of like really important intel that basically 255 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 2: proved the idea that Britain could really use MI six 256 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 2: or something like it. 257 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it seemed to be. The way I 258 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: read this was like these are just sort of the 259 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: baby steps. They didn't have like kind of the authority 260 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: they would have later on, and they were kind of 261 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: sessing out how valuable they might be. So they were 262 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: just sort of getting established. After World War One was 263 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: when they were fully established as the SIS, but they were, 264 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: you know, they were monitoring Russia, trying to keep them 265 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: in the war. They were like, what are the Americans 266 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: thinking right now, what's going on in the Oval Office, 267 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: because we'd like to bring them into the war, and 268 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: they were doing Yemen's work, you know, providing you know, 269 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: the kind of stuff you would see in like the 270 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: Great Escape, even though that was World War Two, Like 271 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: if you're a pow, you might get a map and 272 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: a compass smuggled into you, stuff like that, trying to 273 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: foil bombing plots and things like that. So they were like, 274 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: you know, what do you think of us? Now? How 275 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: are you doing? And apparently good enough to be official 276 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: after the war. 277 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. So by the time the Inner War period comes along, 278 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 2: the twenties thirties, they well, there are some more legendary people. 279 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 2: This is a time where it was just like the 280 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 2: Wild West in Great Britain as far as spycrafts and 281 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 2: intelligence goes. And there's this one guy who's definitely worth mentioning. 282 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 2: He was an early agent. And we should say most 283 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 2: people call anybody who would be working for six an 284 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 2: agent with the CIA. You'd be correct. With I six, 285 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 2: you'd be wrong. An agent, as far as I six 286 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 2: is concerned, is one of those sources who has turned 287 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: turncoat on their country, is supplying six with secrets. 288 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: Right, that's a double agent, yeah, or just. 289 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 2: A plane old agent. A double agent would be somebody 290 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: who was actually spying for their country but posing as 291 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 2: a spy for MI six. This is just a plain 292 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 2: old agent. Officers are the people who are employees of 293 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 2: MI six that run and handle agents in the field. 294 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: Right, So that would make Cyril Bertram Mills an agent. 295 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, that's what I was getting to. 296 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: All right, So before World War Two, this guy was 297 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: a circus director and he ended up working for six 298 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: for about four decades, known only to his family, you know, 299 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: for doing this work because as a circus director, he 300 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: could get in a little buy wing plane and he 301 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: could fly all over the place under cover of doing 302 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: circus business. I don't think he was like standing on 303 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: the plane and eating a banana, like on the wings 304 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: of the planary, like doing tricks. He had to get 305 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: around as a circus guy, and this was pretty good cover. 306 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: And he had some pretty dangerous missions with these flights 307 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 1: as well. Right. 308 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a couple where he was giving like six 309 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 2: like really valuable intelligence from flying over like aircraft factories 310 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 2: in Germany. Apparently there was one particular piece of information 311 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 2: or I guess a bunch of information that really formed 312 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 2: a good picture of the size of Germany's Luftwaffa, their 313 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 2: air force, and Winston Churchill apparently used that to decide 314 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 2: whether he was on the side of appeasing Hitler or 315 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 2: fighting Hitler. And I guess because of the build up 316 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 2: of this air force, he was like, we can't let 317 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 2: this guy keep continuing. So he was against appeasement, thanks 318 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 2: largely to Bertram Mills intel that he was directly giving him. 319 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this was you know, this is dangerous work. 320 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: He wasn't just flying around. I think in nineteen thirty six, 321 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: which was the year he started the Naze courts executed 322 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: by decapitation, usually with an axe, six spies that were caught. 323 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 1: So he had a lot on the line as a 324 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: circus director, but he was doing it for I guess 325 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: love of country. 326 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and a circus director is understating it. He was 327 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: known as King of the Modern Circus, like he was 328 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 2: a really big deal outside of his spying activities. It 329 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 2: would have astounded anybody who had ever heard of him 330 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 2: that he was a spy. 331 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think circus director fit better on a card 332 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: than King of the Modern Circus, right, probably. And he 333 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: was an understated guy, you know, he didn't he wasn't 334 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: playing boyant. 335 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 2: No there you ca Yeah. It would have been one 336 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 2: of those things where it starts out normal, but as 337 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 2: it gets closer to the edge of the card, they 338 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 2: start cramping letters together. 339 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: Like a poster made for elementary school. 340 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 2: Right for the science fair, exactly what happens with vinegar 341 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 2: and baking soda. 342 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I still do that sometimes when I have to. 343 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: I don't. I'm not great at spacing like that. It 344 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: has to do with your brain, I think specialwareness and stuff. 345 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not that good at it either. Don't worry. 346 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 2: All right, good, So for a long time, not a 347 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 2: lot happened, and then World War two broke out, and 348 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 2: World War two. By this time, remember m I six 349 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 2: had proved its metal and worth in World War One. 350 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 2: You had a whole decade or two where it just 351 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 2: kept proving it's worth, and so by the time the 352 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 2: war broke out, you would think that they would be 353 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 2: totally ready for this. But I don't know if it 354 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 2: caught them off guard or they were just allowed to 355 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 2: kind of be pruned in peacetime. I don't know. But 356 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 2: it took them a minute to get their footing and 357 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 2: regenerate intelligent like human intelligence networks in Europe. But they 358 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 2: apparently got their footing fairly quickly and were very successful 359 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,479 Speaker 2: and basically generating a lot of intelligence coming out of 360 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 2: different countries, including occupied countries in Europe during World War Two. 361 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like that was the slower part. Where 362 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: we know they did a lot better was at Bletchley 363 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: Park with their signals intelligence. You know, we talked about 364 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: the code breaking and Alan Turing and the what was 365 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: it a Enigma machine? Yes, that's right, some great episodes 366 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: from our distant past. But they were kind of crushing 367 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: it over there. They did, finally during this period, start 368 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: to have some women working there that were not just secretaries. 369 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 1: There was one overseen by a woman named Kathleen pettigrew 370 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: communications at least between home and field agents. She was 371 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: very proud of her work and said I was basically 372 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: Miss Moneypenny, but with more power. Yeah. 373 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 2: She was the chief at the time secretary and he 374 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 2: imbued her with enough power to run a program. So 375 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 2: a lot of people say she was probably the inspiration 376 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 2: for Ian Fleming's Miss Moneypenny, who James Bond used to 377 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 2: like to flirt with. 378 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people from this age were like, 379 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: basically or I'm Cue or I'm Miss money Penny. 380 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 2: Right. My dad used to go around telling people he 381 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 2: was Q. 382 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 1: Are you serious? 383 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 2: No, that would have been so impairsed. 384 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: Well, see, that was a tough one. I'm giving myself 385 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: a break there because I believe in almost anything you 386 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: tell me about your dad. 387 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true, the herbal Elvis. 388 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. 389 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 2: Yeah. And speaking of Q, it turns out that so 390 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 2: they were. They did kind of develop devices, like you said, 391 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 2: figuring out ways to hide compasses and maps to get 392 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 2: to POW's in World War One. But the idea of 393 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 2: their research and development and technology branch that produced someone 394 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 2: like Q that we all who know that James Bond 395 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 2: movies are familiar with, that actually came from them absorbing 396 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 2: a rival agency that was developed in World War Two 397 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 2: that m I six did not like one bit at first, 398 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 2: the Special Operations Executive or the Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare. 399 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seemed like and it may just be like 400 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: teenage boying this thing, but it seemed like they got 401 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: under I six's skin because they got to do more 402 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: fun stuff. Yeah, for sure, like kind of more dangerous 403 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: ops went to them, and six were like, you know, 404 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: we've been around a while, and these are I think 405 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 1: they thought in them the way Kyle put it as 406 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: dangerous amateurs, but then they started saying, but you got 407 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: to take us along at least. 408 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean they definitely did have their fun 409 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 2: stuff curtailed because I six had a department called D 410 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 2: section and D stood for destruction, like they were supposedly 411 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 2: perfectly capable of doing sabotage. I don't know enough about 412 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 2: World War two British military history to understand why they 413 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 2: felt a Special Operations Executive was needed, or if somebody 414 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 2: just managed to have enough power that they developed their 415 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 2: own thing and it just became so we I don't know, 416 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 2: but eventually m I six prevailed, especially after World War Two, 417 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 2: and they absorbed the Special Operations as Executive, including a 418 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 2: lot of their really interesting useful stuff, like their research 419 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 2: and development group that produced people like Q. 420 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 1: Yeah. I got the feeling, and maybe we'll get a 421 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 1: real you know, British history buff that can let us know. 422 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: But it sounded to me like a Churchill directive kind 423 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: of like I know, we've got our Section D and 424 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: m I six, but we need a really super secret 425 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: special sabage our team, and like let's create. 426 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 2: One, right. He was waiting for that last part. 427 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of what it sounded like. But back 428 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 1: to Q, that was based again on a real person, 429 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: and I think we said, but Q stands for quartermaster, 430 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: and this guy was Charles Fraser Smith, and he was 431 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: the one that made like literal miniature cameras inside cigarette 432 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: lighters and steal shoelaces to choke someone out with. Yeah, 433 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: a cigarette holder telescope. Kyle said that these weren't as 434 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: we're a little more hum drum. But I think a 435 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: bullet shaped device to stick up your butt that holds 436 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: vital information maybe humdrum, but it's pretty useful. 437 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 2: I'll bet it doesn't feel hum drum going in. 438 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it depends on what kind of bullet too. 439 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 2: For sure. Yeah. So I mean that there's a lot 440 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 2: of what we understand about I six and like the 441 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 2: movies and all that, it does apparently bear some resemblance 442 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 2: because I don't know if we said or not. Ian 443 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 2: Fleming worked for six during the during World War Two, 444 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 2: so he had firsthand knowledge about all this stuff, which 445 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 2: is why there are real life people who these characters 446 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 2: were based on. So our understanding of what I six 447 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 2: does and has, that it's disposal on the way it 448 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 2: runs is not that far off. But one of the 449 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 2: big differences I saw was the idea of a lone, 450 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 2: loose canon running his own operations out there is totally incorrect. 451 00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 2: It's just backwards. I've seen current employees say, like that 452 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 2: guy wouldn't even make it through the door, Like he 453 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 2: would get voted out so quickly that he wouldn't even 454 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 2: have a chance. You need somebody who's not a loose cannon, yeah, 455 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 2: you rather than solo missions. Apparently, it's all teamwork. Yeah, 456 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: And it's not one person coming up with one giant 457 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 2: piece of information, like there's a super villain who's created 458 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 2: a layer at the bottom of the sea that he's 459 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 2: been shooting their missiles from. That usually doesn't come up 460 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 2: in one big package. It takes thousands of people to 461 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 2: work together to piece little pieces of information, and they 462 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 2: go back and double check and triple check with other 463 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 2: sources whether those pieces of information are correct, and then 464 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 2: eventually you create a whole picture and you hope, hope 465 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 2: that it's true and accurate. 466 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you hope there's a secret layer right with 467 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: like trained sharks in a mote. 468 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 2: That you can get a membership to. 469 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So speeding along up to the Cold War. 470 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 1: We are now out of place where like the USA, 471 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 1: the Cold War was dominated in m I six by 472 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: the Soviets and communism, the spread of communism agents, double agents, 473 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: secret agents, triple agents. They were doing the same work 474 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: we were. They partnered up with the CIA in nineteen 475 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 1: forty eight, again which was modeled on I six, and 476 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: they were trying to sort of at this point balance 477 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: intelligence with covert actions because it wasn't like an active war, 478 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: so they had to approach it differently. And they said 479 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: that at the time there were a couple of different 480 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: types of I guess what officers working there, Almost an 481 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: agent but Moscow men who are apparently very careful and 482 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 1: you know, gathering that intelligence. And then camel drivers, who 483 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: were people they would send in to like on the 484 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: ground in the field at a local place to ally 485 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: themselves with locals to maybe mountain insurrection or something like that. 486 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'm guessing the camel drivers came from the 487 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 2: Special Operations executive heritage, because that's exactly the kind of 488 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 2: guerrilla warfare the so we engaged in World War Two. 489 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 2: So I'm guessing that's how that survived into the Cold War. 490 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, and of course, because it's the Cold War, a 491 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: lot of the intelligence that these Moscow men were gathering 492 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: was like, hey, we're not at war, but in case 493 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: something happens, we know that they've got these airfields, they've 494 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: got this many tanks, this many soldiers on the ground 495 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 1: that could move here in this amount of time. So 496 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: you know, it was sort of a readiness operation at 497 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 1: that point. 498 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, and not just like Okay, they have a huge 499 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 2: stockpile of these weapons. The opposite could be just as 500 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 2: valuable too, like, actually, they don't have that many missiles, 501 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 2: so all this bluster about them blowing the UK into 502 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 2: the ocean is actually full of hot air, so we 503 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:55,719 Speaker 2: don't need to be quite as scared about it. 504 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, good point. 505 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's I mean, that's really important too. But 506 00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 2: like you said, also, I mean they got caught maybe 507 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 2: a little off guard with World War Two. I get 508 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 2: the impression that they didn't let that happen during the 509 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 2: Cold War. They were still keeping up with Soviets like capabilities. 510 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 2: I think what else made it easy too, was you 511 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 2: had one nation really to spy on the Soviet Union 512 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 2: as a whole. It was massive and it was made 513 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 2: up of what are now a bunch of independent nations. 514 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 2: But at the time you had one big enemy, rather 515 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 2: than today where you have like terrorism, nonstate bad actors. Like, 516 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 2: it's just much more dilute, whereas before it was like 517 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 2: those guys, those are our enemy, that's who we need 518 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 2: to spy on. 519 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, train all ears towards Moscow basically. 520 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. 521 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 1: So they were also still recruiting intelligence officers, you know, 522 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: to use on their side. And this is did I 523 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: read this right? The KGB their acronym MICE stood for money, ideology, coercion, 524 00:28:55,320 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: and ego. Were they identifying people within their own that 525 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: might be, you know, susceptible to being turned. 526 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 2: I'm sure you could apply it to that, But the 527 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 2: impression I had is that was just how they decided 528 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 2: if somebody was worth approaching to recruit as a spy 529 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 2: for them, Oh okay, pay it would apply, yeah, for sure. 530 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 2: So if you're recruiting people, that's one way to do it. 531 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 2: You can flatter them, make them just be like, this 532 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 2: person clearly wants to feel like they're important or helping 533 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 2: their country or something like that. You can have stuff 534 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 2: that to blackmail them with. Apparently am I six is 535 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 2: more than willing to blackmail agents into working for them. 536 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 2: Bribery is another one too. It's how a lot of 537 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 2: very famous and prolific spies have been brought on to 538 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 2: being a spy is just getting paid. Although in the 539 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 2: end when you when they're being executed, you like, you 540 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 2: did all this for three hundred thousand dollars, really, yeah, 541 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 2: you know, it just never quite adds up, and it's 542 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 2: like and also it's like three hundred thousand dollars over 543 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 2: like twelve years or something like that. It just I 544 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 2: never quite get it. So maybe there's like they're really 545 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 2: in it for the thrill. The money was just the 546 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 2: extra bonus. I don't know. 547 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, they'd be like, why don't you just try to 548 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: scratch off tickets, right if you want to make forty 549 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: grand a year for the next fifteen years. 550 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 2: Right. And then another gambit is called the dangle. It's 551 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 2: not dirty, it's just this way of getting somebody as 552 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 2: spy for you, oh okay, Or actually it's a way 553 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 2: of creating a double agent, like you were talking about. 554 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: So that's when you recruit somebody but for the purposes 555 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: of exposing them. Right. 556 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 2: So a dangle is where you say, like you have 557 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 2: somebody in Moscow that you've turned into an agent for you. 558 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 2: You try to make them attractive to say the kgb 559 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 2: AH to recruit them as a spy. So now you 560 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 2: have a double agent working inside Okay? 561 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: And is that? Who is that? How they got Oleg Pinkowski? 562 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 2: I don't know. He came to them, No, he came 563 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 2: to them. He became disillusioned with the Soviet Union and 564 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 2: he's like, I think I'm going to start helping the UK. 565 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: Oh Okay, because he worked with both six and CIA, 566 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: and again this is during the Cold War, so he 567 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: was one of the key players and sort of or 568 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: I guess, getting and giving information on Soviet missiles in 569 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: Cuba during the Cuban missile crisis. 570 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is pretty useful as a matter of fact. Yeah, 571 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 2: he was hugely helpful, just over like eighteen months and 572 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,479 Speaker 2: then he was caught and executed. But I think at 573 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,959 Speaker 2: that time he gave up five thousand photos of Soviet 574 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 2: documents to six. 575 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know you mentioned the CIA earlier having 576 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: sort of more legal hands being tied than they do 577 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: apparently in the Cold War, and who knows, maybe this 578 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: still happens today. But if there was a CIA officer 579 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: that couldn't get something done on the down low that 580 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: was maybe untoured or violent or illegal. They could call 581 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: m I six and say, hey, we can't get this done, 582 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: could you? 583 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 2: And they say yes, yes, Wait can you say I 584 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 2: can't do a very good British accent? 585 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: Yes? That was Murray from New Zealand. 586 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 2: Again almost always is. So I say we take a 587 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 2: break and we come back and talk about one of 588 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 2: the most thrilling moments in I six history. 589 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: Are you talking about Oleg Gordievski. 590 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 2: Yes, that's exactly who I'm talking about, a KGB colonel. 591 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: That's right. Apparently this guy. And this is how you can, 592 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: you know, get someone on your side from the or 593 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: at least at the time from that side, is if 594 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: they really like Western. 595 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 2: Culture, yeah, the Cowabunga lifestyle. 596 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like, I really like, I don't know, American 597 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: sports and music and fashion. Then that could be enough. 598 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: And apparently he was on assignment in Copenhagen and they 599 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: were like, this guy loves Western culture and he might 600 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: be worth you know, getting in touch with. And sure 601 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: enough it actually worked. 602 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 2: I don't know where they'd fall in the mice acronym money, ideology, coercion, ego. 603 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: Taty ideology and ego. 604 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm not sure, but yes, he definitely turned, 605 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 2: but he was caught, he was found out, so he 606 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 2: was he became the station chief for working out of 607 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 2: the embassy as a KGB agent in London, so he 608 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 2: was able to actually kind of easily pass secrets to 609 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 2: the Brits because he was there already. He was found 610 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 2: out by Aldrich Ames, who was a famous American trader 611 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 2: who spied for the Soviets in I think the eighties 612 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 2: or maybe even into the nineties, and he told them 613 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 2: about Gordievsky spying for the Brits. Gordievsky was not immediately jailed, 614 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 2: which is weird. He was definitely taken back to Moscow 615 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 2: and held like basically under surveillance. But he was going 616 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 2: to be jailed. He was going to be executed. So 617 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 2: he started what had been planned seven years before and 618 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 2: named Operation Pimlico. And by standing in a Moscow bakery 619 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 2: or outside of a Moscow bakery holding a plastic Safeway bag, 620 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,879 Speaker 2: he was signaling MI, I six, like, get me out 621 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 2: of here right now. 622 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and he said, how am I going to know? 623 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 1: If you've gotten the message. And they says, well, how 624 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 1: about this, a man's going to walk by you carrying 625 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: a Herod's bag And then he said that could be anybody, right, 626 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: And he said, all right, how about this carrying a 627 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 1: Herod's bag and eating a Mars candy bar, right, And 628 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: he said, I guess that narrows it down enough. 629 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is really showing off because I think you 630 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 2: could trade a Mars bar for a car in Moscow 631 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty five. 632 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, yeah, that's a good point. 633 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,760 Speaker 2: Actually, at least that's what they told us in school. 634 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. They don't have toilet paper either. So he 635 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: evaded surveillance was making a run for the Finished border 636 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 1: and am I six scrabbed him and put him in 637 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,760 Speaker 1: a car trunk. But they have like, you know, sniffing 638 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: dogs inspecting cars and things, so they had the brilliant 639 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,839 Speaker 1: idea to change a poopy diaper on the trunk of 640 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: the car that he was stuffed inside. And apparently it worked. 641 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, those dogs were like, oh god and just went 642 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 2: back to their post. 643 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: No, thank you. 644 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, isn't that amazing? So then they got him across 645 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 2: the Finish border. Finland is neutral and he was safe. 646 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 2: But I mean, like that is real deal spy stuff, 647 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 2: you know. Oh yeah, for sure, holding a Safeway bag. 648 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 2: That's awesome. The mars Bar I love every part of that. 649 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 2: So he actually he was actually tried in absentia and 650 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 2: sentenced to death by the Soviet Union, but he had 651 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 2: defected to the UK and they protected him and he 652 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 2: died an old man, I think age eighty six last 653 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 2: March at his home in Great Britain. 654 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: Incredible they never got a hold of him. 655 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 2: No. But one thing that we really should say, and 656 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 2: I was kind of touching on it earlier, one of 657 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,879 Speaker 2: the really valuable things he provided was he could understand 658 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 2: the state of mind of the Soviet government and Soviet military, 659 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,839 Speaker 2: and he fed this information of the UK to six, 660 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 2: who turned around and said, Margaret thatcher Ronald Reagan, you 661 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 2: guys need to tone down this evil empire rhetoric, right 662 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 2: because you are scaring the Soviets so bad. They're plotting 663 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 2: a first strike because they think you're going to strike 664 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 2: out of nowhere, So you actually might trigger a first 665 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 2: strike from the Soviets if you keep talking like this. 666 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 2: And as a result, they really dialed it back quite 667 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:05,399 Speaker 2: a bit. 668 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, they said, he said, have you seen more games? Yeah, 669 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: He's like that could happen. 670 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 2: In that sense, he kind of saved the world. 671 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:13,879 Speaker 1: Yeah. 672 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 2: I think that's great. 673 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think saving the world is totally great. 674 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 2: I'm all for it. 675 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: If we're talking about modern times, and you mentioned the 676 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: nineties is when things sort of went official, and that 677 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: was nineteen ninety four. They officially went public due to 678 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: the nineteen ninety four Intelligence Services Act, And basically this 679 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,439 Speaker 1: had happened to five in nineteen eighty nine, and it's 680 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: kind of seemed like they had to kind of bring 681 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: in some bureaucracy for legal reasons. Among others, they the 682 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: staff of I five and I guess later I six 683 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 1: wanted better legal basis for things like tapping phones. They 684 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: had to be a little little more on the up 685 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: and up. I think that it was the European Court 686 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,320 Speaker 1: of Human Rights said that if you're an intelligence service, 687 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: you have to have legal footing and a complaints system, 688 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 1: so like you have to become official for all this 689 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: stuff to be official. 690 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 2: Right, there's so that law that essentially acknowledged that there 691 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 2: was such a thing as six back in nineteen ninety four. 692 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 2: It had a section called Section seven, and it basically 693 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 2: said if one of our agents is off running around 694 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 2: committing crimes in another country that they could be tried 695 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,320 Speaker 2: for back in the UK, they cannot be held liable 696 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 2: for that. They'll never be tried for this. Yeah, And 697 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 2: some people have taken that as admission that there's such 698 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 2: a thing as a license to kill, and that makes sense. 699 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,279 Speaker 2: I mean the apparently there is a new law that's 700 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 2: being talked about right now and is making its way 701 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 2: through the Supreme Court there that basically says yes, and 702 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 2: pretty much murder too, We're not going to try them 703 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 2: for murder. And it actually extends to agents too, So 704 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 2: if somebody murders somebody for mi I six and then 705 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 2: they defect to the UK, the UK is never going 706 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 2: to try them for that murder. So it's a lot 707 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 2: so people are like, that's a license to kill. And 708 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 2: I saw an agent say on I think a PBS 709 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 2: or BBC documentary a license to kill doesn't make any sense, 710 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 2: Like if you're in another country and you kill somebody there, 711 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,359 Speaker 2: like when the cops come, you're not going to show 712 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 2: them your license to kill and they'll let you go, 713 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 2: Like this is not You're breaking that country's law. You've 714 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,760 Speaker 2: murdered someone in that country, your toast if you get caught. Yeah, 715 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 2: So there is no license to kill, but symbolic these 716 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 2: laws essentially kind of potentially give something like a license 717 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:39,959 Speaker 2: to kill. 718 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you just don't whip out your double O card. 719 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 2: No. 720 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: No. The other things that happened in nineteen ninety four 721 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: as far as the organization goes is they were the 722 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 1: chief was all I was about to say, exposed technically, 723 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 1: that's right, but they voluntarily said, all right, we have 724 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: to be official. Now here's who our chief is. They 725 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: moved offices to some fancy headquarters on the Thames, designed 726 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: by Terry Ferrell. It's a very secure, sort of secretive building. 727 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: And you know it's while they did go public. You know, 728 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 1: technically it's still m I six and they still have 729 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: a culture of secrecy because of what they do. It's 730 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: not like, you know, they just sort of made some 731 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:27,319 Speaker 1: things a little more public to make things official. I 732 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: guess right. 733 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 2: That building too, It is secure, but it was blown up, 734 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 2: not once but twice. Well, not blown up. The first 735 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,359 Speaker 2: time it was attacked by the IRA They shot an 736 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 2: anti tank rocket launcher at the building. On September twentieth, 737 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 2: two thousand, and that building just like shook it off 738 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 2: immediately did like it did almost no damage to it whatsoever, 739 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 2: and really kind of showed just how crazy reinforced that 740 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,319 Speaker 2: building is. But it suffered a much different fate in 741 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 2: James on Skyfall where it blew up. 742 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:03,760 Speaker 1: Oh was that what that building? 743 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. 744 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 1: Skyfall was good. It was as a matter of fact, 745 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 1: quite liked it. I'm curious what's gonna happen next with 746 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: that franchise? 747 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,720 Speaker 2: Did Yeah, they haven't named any James Bond yet. 748 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,239 Speaker 1: I don't think so. And they sold you know, the 749 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,439 Speaker 1: Broccoli family, I think sold sold everything. Oh really to god, 750 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 1: it may have been Amazon even I don't know. Wow, 751 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: not sure, but we'll see. 752 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 2: Well, if it's not Idris Elba, I'm going to be 753 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:26,840 Speaker 2: really surprised. 754 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, they've been talking about him for years. That would 755 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: be too good to be true. There, no one's smart 756 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: enough to do that in movie making. Yeah, I don't 757 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 1: have great faith. We should talk a little bit about 758 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: the more modern day stuff because you know, starting in 759 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,799 Speaker 1: the early two thousands, leading up to the Iraq War 760 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: in two thousand and three, obviously they were going to 761 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: be working with hunting down terrorists and maybe weapons of 762 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,760 Speaker 1: mass destruction, and that was one of their big black eyes. 763 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: Actually was bogus information that got through apparently, you know, 764 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 1: it wasn't vetted like it should have been, and that 765 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 1: was one of the reasons that the US and the 766 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,799 Speaker 1: rest of the world got and believed bad information about 767 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,360 Speaker 1: weapons of mass destruction. Interract. 768 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's said that that is the lowest moment in 769 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,400 Speaker 2: sixth history since Kim Philby was discovered as a trader 770 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,920 Speaker 2: and longtime spy, which is really saying something if you've 771 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,839 Speaker 2: heard our episode on Kim Philby. But I would say 772 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,560 Speaker 2: that this was even much much worse because of how 773 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 2: many people died in the Iraq War. Yeah, And the 774 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 2: reason why it was such a big deal, this bad 775 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,719 Speaker 2: intelligence is because the US and the UK essentially made 776 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:42,880 Speaker 2: a pact like we're going to invade a rock together 777 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 2: to topple this regime. We just want to get rid 778 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 2: of Saddam Hussein. That's not legal. If Saddam had weapons 779 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,479 Speaker 2: of mass destruction. Now it's legal under basically international law. 780 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,319 Speaker 2: So they really went to a lot of trouble to 781 00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 2: try to find anything that suggested that and then the 782 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 2: and they just relied on these sources that just were 783 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 2: totally untrustworthy. And I don't remember where we talked about it, 784 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 2: but one of the sources that the US and the 785 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 2: UK relied on to invader Rock with said they have 786 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 2: weapons of mass destruction. They keep them in these glass 787 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 2: canisters and in these like little glass balls, and the 788 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 2: glass balls are green, and Nicholas Cage protects them with 789 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:24,840 Speaker 2: Sean Connery. 790 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean learned people just really genuinely suspect that 791 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,839 Speaker 1: that could have been misinformation based on the Rock. 792 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that the handful of British ministers and politicians 793 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 2: who saw this intel had not seen the Rock apparently, 794 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,720 Speaker 2: and it just didn't ring any bells. If they had seen. 795 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: It, well, they had better taste in that. 796 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 2: I guess it wasn't that good. But you know, it's 797 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,720 Speaker 2: not just like a you know, shoot them up bang 798 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 2: kind of thing, action movie. I guess, yeah, it's all right. Yeah. 799 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 2: So today, I six they're realizing openly in interviews and stuff, 800 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 2: that they really need to start keeping up with technology 801 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,719 Speaker 2: because of like facial recognition and surveillance states like that 802 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 2: China has and the UK. It's basically impossible to create 803 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,239 Speaker 2: an agent somewhere like human intelligence is really hard to 804 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,680 Speaker 2: do now, especially yes, and apparently they're starting to use 805 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 2: AI to run scenarios and situations to predict how somebody 806 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 2: will behave in different situations. That's a new one they're 807 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,400 Speaker 2: starting to do too. So I don't know how ahead 808 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 2: of the curve they are, and it sounds to me 809 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,080 Speaker 2: a little bit like they're behind the curve. But at 810 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 2: least they're realizing they need to they need to wake 811 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:47,160 Speaker 2: up and smell the hard drives. Sorry thought you're gonna 812 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,680 Speaker 2: say English breakfast team. Oh that's even better, So we 813 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 2: just edit that in. 814 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:57,359 Speaker 1: But you say it Beijing, mister Hermann. So the you know, 815 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: the other obvious thing. As far as modern day recruit goes, 816 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 1: it's not like the old days where they would just 817 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,760 Speaker 1: sort of source someone out and very you know, quietly, 818 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:08,719 Speaker 1: have someone walk by and drop a note on their 819 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,440 Speaker 1: dinner table that says, are you interested in a job? 820 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,759 Speaker 1: You know, come by this office tomorrow alone, that kind 821 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,880 Speaker 1: of thing. It's a modern organization now with you know, 822 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 1: job listings and things like that. Again, still very secretive 823 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:22,839 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, I'm sure in what they 824 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,359 Speaker 1: do but they you know, starting in nineteen ninety four 825 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,440 Speaker 1: is when they really were brought into the sort of 826 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 1: modern era. It's a little less James Bondy and just 827 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,759 Speaker 1: a little more you know, fill out this application and 828 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 1: we'll do our background checks. 829 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,920 Speaker 2: Right. It is still risky, though, is I can't remember 830 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,840 Speaker 2: what year it was. In the twenty tens, I believe 831 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,440 Speaker 2: there was a codebreaker for I six named Gareth Williams 832 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,959 Speaker 2: who was found dead in his bathroom inside a tote 833 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:53,960 Speaker 2: bag that was locked from the outside. 834 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's hard to do on your own, but that 835 00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't that The excuse is like he did this himself. 836 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 2: Either that or that it it was like a sex 837 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 2: game gone wrong and the partner took off, freaked out 838 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:07,880 Speaker 2: and took off. I think that's the official explanation. But 839 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,400 Speaker 2: there was a former KGB agent who came forward in 840 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,120 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen and said, no, that guy would they The 841 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 2: Russians tried to recruit him, and he said no, and 842 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,320 Speaker 2: so they killed him. 843 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,359 Speaker 1: I wonder if it was a sex game gone wrong 844 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 1: and they just were extracting invisibly. 845 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,879 Speaker 2: Oh my god. I think that's a pretty good way 846 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,279 Speaker 2: to wrap up this episode. If not have wrapped it 847 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,479 Speaker 2: up thirty seconds before you said that agreed. Well, since 848 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,520 Speaker 2: we both agreed that this episode is wrapped up, then 849 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,120 Speaker 2: that means it's time for listener mail. 850 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a I got a couple of two 851 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,000 Speaker 1: parteris on these next ones about disaster films, because boy, 852 00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 1: we heard from a lot of people that really enjoyed 853 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:50,760 Speaker 1: that one, and these two are from Maria and Kirk. Hey, guys, 854 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 1: love the disaster movie. But I'm surprised you to mention 855 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,640 Speaker 1: the movie Testament. I have not heard of this, Maria, 856 00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:58,520 Speaker 1: but I'm gonna check it out. It's from nineteen eighty 857 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,200 Speaker 1: three by Lynn Littmann, starring Jane Alexander, one of the 858 00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:04,600 Speaker 1: few with a female lead closest thing to a hero 859 00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,279 Speaker 1: in this post apocalyptic movie, and one of the few 860 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:12,120 Speaker 1: directed by a woman. You were focusing more escapist action 861 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: disaster type things, but you did mention a few that 862 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:16,799 Speaker 1: were a little author raider, so I thought I would 863 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,560 Speaker 1: mention this one. And another one that you could have 864 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: mentioned that was a little off the radar was Melancholia, 865 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,160 Speaker 1: a pre apocalyptic film. So have we not mentioned that, 866 00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:28,719 Speaker 1: I swear to god we did. I don't think we did. 867 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:30,880 Speaker 1: In that episode, but we did talk about it recently, 868 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,600 Speaker 1: because we've talked about it a few times for some reason. 869 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:35,000 Speaker 2: I think that qualifies. 870 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:39,440 Speaker 1: And then also from Kirk Hey from Beautiful Astoria, Oregon, 871 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: a longtime listener, and I love disaster films and you 872 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:45,960 Speaker 1: guys did a great job. I'm surprised though, that you 873 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,239 Speaker 1: didn't mention Jurassic Park because I believe that fits all 874 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:53,000 Speaker 1: the criteria and pre dates Twister by three years, and 875 00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,279 Speaker 1: it also fits at your conversation on the early use 876 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,279 Speaker 1: of CGI with some of the greatest special effects of 877 00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,360 Speaker 1: the time. I have a feeling it won't be the 878 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:05,040 Speaker 1: only person mentioning this. Love the podcast, guys, And that 879 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,840 Speaker 1: is from Kirk Klinger. Now, we had a few people 880 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: right in about Jurassic Park. But I don't know about 881 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:15,560 Speaker 1: disaster movie. To me, that's maybe a subgenre of monster movie. 882 00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:16,799 Speaker 1: I don't know, what do you think. 883 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:22,000 Speaker 2: It did have a Hoffman in the form of Wayne Knight, 884 00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 2: who played Newman. True he was even wearing a Hawaiian 885 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,280 Speaker 2: shirt like he couldn't get more obviously Hoffman. 886 00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:31,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point. 887 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,160 Speaker 2: So I don't I don't think it is a disaster 888 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:34,720 Speaker 2: movie though, But that's just my opinion. 889 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:36,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're not the I mean, what do we know. 890 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,480 Speaker 1: If you think it's a disaster movie, then go with it. 891 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:41,719 Speaker 2: I did say some people agreed with me though, that 892 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:45,920 Speaker 2: Godzilla minus one is definitely a disaster, so I was right. 893 00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:50,360 Speaker 1: Well, the scale of destruction in Jurassic Park one was 894 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,359 Speaker 1: limited to e is La, Newbar, so I don't know 895 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,520 Speaker 1: though other things were localized too, So maybe I'm just 896 00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:57,800 Speaker 1: wrong about everything in life. 897 00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, like that that tunnel collapse was alone. 898 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,160 Speaker 1: That was Yeah, that's true. That's true. 899 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,480 Speaker 2: Uh yeah, well, Kirk, thank you for starting this conversation. 900 00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:07,319 Speaker 2: It's a great one. Like I said, we love that 901 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:09,520 Speaker 2: kind of thing. Send us an email. Send it off 902 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:14,760 Speaker 2: to stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com. 903 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,759 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 904 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:22,040 Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 905 00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:24,000 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.