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Speaker 1: Wine Down with Janne Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think it's funny about last week is

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Speaker 1: that when I had posted about one of like someone

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Speaker 1: leaving the Queendom, you guys immediately went to It was

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Speaker 1: one of y'all, well, you said Kristen Brust and tagged

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Speaker 1: me at Kristen dot Brust wants someone to leave the

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Speaker 1: Queendom chat and I got sweaty. I'm like, there's no way.

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Speaker 1: I felt like I had this like duped moment where

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Speaker 1: I was like, did they edit something and it's going

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Speaker 1: to make me sound like I'm breaking up. That's what

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Speaker 1: I felt. I was here and I still was worried

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Speaker 1: it was me. I wasn't sure. I don't even I

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Speaker 1: couldn't remember the great news that person has exited the chat. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: exited the chat. She just not see No, no, I

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Speaker 1: was totally exited. And it's really funny because funny Jewish guy.

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Speaker 1: I was like, you should listen to the podcast because

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Speaker 1: I kind of mentioned and he was like, I'm never

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Speaker 1: listening to wind Down ever again because you talked about

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Speaker 1: a dude for like the person another dude, because he

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Speaker 1: was like, oh no, he goes um he said, because

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Speaker 1: he's like I thought you were going to be like

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Speaker 1: he was amazed, like I said, you were He's like

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Speaker 1: all he said was like he's a cool dude. But

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Speaker 1: the other guy and he goes So I have to

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Speaker 1: be um, do I have to you know, play hard

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Speaker 1: to get? But we had a conversation too, and that

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Speaker 1: was a bummer because we we realized we're just going

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Speaker 1: to be friends. It's funny Jewish guy, gonna listen to

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Speaker 1: this one. Should we talk about him for a second

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Speaker 1: so you can feel the love. Well, I mean now

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Speaker 1: that we're just friends, because he's he still deserves now

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Speaker 1: that we're just Yeah, so he's gone, all right by

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Speaker 1: funny Jewish. It's too fast. It's hard. It's hard, but

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Speaker 1: I really because it was one of those things where

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Speaker 1: like we could be like he could have been that

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Speaker 1: stayed along well for a very long time in a

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Speaker 1: chap But the reality is he lives in l A

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Speaker 1: And I'm not moving and he's not moving, and so

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Speaker 1: there's no point. By your face, is it really over

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Speaker 1: or do we just create some sort of boundary. No,

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Speaker 1: it's it's like I have to like put up the

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Speaker 1: like I even was like, hey, I have this great

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Speaker 1: girl in l A. I'm going to set you up

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Speaker 1: with because he's a great freaking guy. It's a very

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Speaker 1: you have. It's interesting because we're from the same place,

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Speaker 1: but you go very l A with that. Like the

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Speaker 1: swapping of boyfriends and girlfriends is like so West Coast

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Speaker 1: to me where I'm like like, I'm just like, no,

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Speaker 1: that's girl coulde No, that's bro code And then I

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Speaker 1: played together. We just mayed out. M M no, ma'am,

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Speaker 1: you can't wait. I'm sorry in your thirties nearing forties,

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Speaker 1: so like me, Caitlin and Elizabeth, and I'm gonna do

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Speaker 1: just to you now to Kavin, now that you're part

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Speaker 1: of the single crew. But like, for example, Eliza, because

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Speaker 1: I'm the dating app that we're all on, She's like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I went out with him. He's great. He's like really

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Speaker 1: like dad, but he's all here is He's not my person.

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Speaker 1: So I'm like, you sure, cool? So I heard him.

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Speaker 1: I can't. This is like a fantasy and I can't.

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Speaker 1: But why I just can't. I couldn't. But like even

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Speaker 1: if like I mean Elizabeth, like I think they just

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Speaker 1: kissed too, It's like it's not with my husband. Do

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Speaker 1: we need to have a deep dive? Do we need

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Speaker 1: to pause the recording? Maybe not in the queendom. Maybe

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Speaker 1: we just wouldn't like sorry forgot your oh anyway, that's

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Speaker 1: very West Coast to me. I'm just saying wouldn't. So,

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Speaker 1: for example, this guy Adam said, that's fine, that's fine.

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Speaker 1: It's like he's cool, he deserves it. He got a name.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you know what, honey, Jewish guy, boring Jewish guy,

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Speaker 1: never got his name mentioned you matters. But like he's

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Speaker 1: a great guy. So I'm like I even DMed one

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Speaker 1: of my girlfriends and was like, hey, um, you know

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Speaker 1: this is a great guy. I would She said, well,

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Speaker 1: why don't you want to be with him? I was

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Speaker 1: like I would in a heartbeat, But like he's got

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Speaker 1: a daughter, he'll never leave, and I'm not gonna, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to move either, because I'd be unfair

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Speaker 1: for my co parenting situation and the kids and so

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Speaker 1: and to the queendom and to the queendom. So I'm like, hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna, you know, you should y'all shouldn't meet. And

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's weird because it's like yeah, because

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Speaker 1: then when they get married. She you're going to be

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Speaker 1: in the match. And I think that if you'll had

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Speaker 1: like a serious relationship for a long time, that seems

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Speaker 1: a little weirder. But not you've been on wet two

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Speaker 1: dates with the guy. Yeah, I don't think it's that weird.

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Speaker 1: But she kissed him passionately. Now your new friend's gonna

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Speaker 1: listen to this episode and she's going to But again,

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Speaker 1: it's he's not my person. So like, for example, if

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Speaker 1: I meet someone, I'm like, oh, I think actually, like

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Speaker 1: I know, I was just talking about this to one

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Speaker 1: of my other girlfriends too. He where she was like,

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Speaker 1: I don't think he's my person. Like if I see

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Speaker 1: someone on on RYE or whatever, I'd be like, oh, Catherine, Like,

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Speaker 1: I think he'd be a good match for you. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna send him Catherine's way. Even if no, I like

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Speaker 1: the idea. I think I love what you're saying, and

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Speaker 1: I like the vetting now, And I also think it

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Speaker 1: takes a great deal maturity to know it's not your

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Speaker 1: person and to go you'd be better suited with this person.

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Speaker 1: The passionate makeout is where I'm like, well, maybe leave

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Speaker 1: that part. Do you want to mention that Leo, your

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Speaker 1: dog is here. It sounds like I just bet you.

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Speaker 1: For those of them not watching, Yeah, no, Leo just

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Speaker 1: totally bit me. Um okay, Leo's evidendency to do that.

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Speaker 1: So this is where I go to um, which I'm

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Speaker 1: going to talk about another topic later, but I want

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Speaker 1: to get to Catherine's topic about she wants to bring

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Speaker 1: something up. Well, I have a question, okay, answer okay,

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Speaker 1: And I legitimately want to know, commitate Leo over on

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Speaker 1: that couch or he's going to have to go on

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Speaker 1: his great because he's fighting the chords in this episode

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Speaker 1: will un very surely if that keeps happening. Okay. If

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Speaker 1: you have a problem with someone, okay, okay, someone, if

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Speaker 1: the person is on this couch, we need to discontinue. Okay,

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Speaker 1: don't worry, not even like a great not even a

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Speaker 1: friend really, But if you have a problem with someone,

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Speaker 1: do you address it, do you let it go, or

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Speaker 1: do you let it fester? It depends on the depth

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Speaker 1: of the relationship. Okay, not that deep. Can we go

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Speaker 1: a little bit more. I'm gonna go mark here on here, Okay,

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Speaker 1: can you give us a little more detail because I

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Speaker 1: think that depends. I need more on what, So which

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Speaker 1: one I would do? Okay? So not a friend, someone

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Speaker 1: that came into your life in a situation that you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have loved to have it have happened, but it did. Um,

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Speaker 1: So you try to be the person's friend. You actually

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Speaker 1: like the person, seems like a nice person, um, but

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Speaker 1: you have a problem with something that that person has done. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So I'm an eight, right, let me just let me

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Speaker 1: answer my own question. Okay, let me answer. That's a

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Speaker 1: very thing to do as a two. I want to

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Speaker 1: hold you as an eight. You'd like to confront yourself.

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Speaker 1: This seems a very unbrand Absolutely, Okay, I'm the person

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Speaker 1: I like to confront it. Like, here's what you've done.

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Speaker 1: I don't like it. Let's address it and theoretically move on. Okay,

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Speaker 1: moving not part, It's part for person. No, it is.

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm learning about me. So I think that's

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Speaker 1: the thing. So like, so you let it faster and

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Speaker 1: you don't move on? I do all three? Should I should?

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Speaker 1: I rewrote us. Back to the last episode. We talked

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Speaker 1: to Lisa in her book Forgiving what You Can't Forget. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I ordered it, Okay, and realized I was already reading

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Speaker 1: one of her books. Um, but this is this is

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Speaker 1: the part that I struggle with. Okay, So I'm learning

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Speaker 1: that this is one of the get biggest struggles, well

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Speaker 1: all of it. So I think I think God's working

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Speaker 1: on me a lot in a lot of ways. This

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Speaker 1: is the one thing that's just like killing me lately. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So it'll fester a lot. So then I'm like, no,

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't address No, don't be an eight, don't do it,

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Speaker 1: don't be an unhealthy, don't do it. And then I

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Speaker 1: go and I attack you go hard? Yeah, I go

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Speaker 1: hard and not very nice. I read the messages. You

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Speaker 1: weren't not nice, you direct, very direct. I think it

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Speaker 1: was an emotional situation that it was too premature for

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Speaker 1: anybody to be a part of. Yes, I'd agree with that.

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Speaker 1: And so your emotions were more heightened because of the

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Speaker 1: situation that you were in, and it bothered you and

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Speaker 1: your like your emotions were part of it. And that's okay.

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Speaker 1: And I'm assuming that this is a situation you didn't

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Speaker 1: you're you weren't asking to be a part was not

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Speaker 1: asking to be a part of it, or wasn't aware

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Speaker 1: you were a part of maybe even yeah, not at

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Speaker 1: the beginning. Okay, So I try, but my emotions are

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Speaker 1: all over the place. Okay, so again I try not

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Speaker 1: to be the eight, but I did. I was here

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Speaker 1: and there like I was mean and eight and whoever's

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Speaker 1: just like super nice, We're awesome. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: number that is, you know, just like a two that's you. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you know you go back and forth. But here's

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Speaker 1: the thing. So now I'm gonna point where I went

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Speaker 1: after but also apologized. I'm very much an apologizer, like

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Speaker 1: I'm a like, let's be direct, let's address it. I'll

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Speaker 1: apologize for what I did wrong. You apologize for what

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Speaker 1: you did wrong, and we can move on. Problem is

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Speaker 1: is the other person was an eight and two eights

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Speaker 1: going after each other didn't go very well. Um, and

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Speaker 1: so now I'm in a situation I cannot let it go.

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Speaker 1: She got unfollowed and blocked, blocked, unfollowed, all of the above. Now,

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Speaker 1: I will be honest, I did block at some point too,

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Speaker 1: but I am blocked, but I am forever blocked. You

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Speaker 1: block someone and you're like, yes, kidding, that happened to

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Speaker 1: me with actually a friend of ours that I was like,

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Speaker 1: by the way, I'm unblocking you. By the way I

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Speaker 1: to top I'm blacky. I already had to do that once.

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Speaker 1: So it's like, by the way, I blocked you and

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Speaker 1: I'm blocking them now, I'm like forever blocked. So are we?

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Speaker 1: I want to say one thing, please, I'm a I

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Speaker 1: am a direct communicator, but I'm a soft communicator. Okay.

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Speaker 1: I don't feel like you should apologize ever, in part

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Speaker 1: of that was me, not lea part of me. I really,

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Speaker 1: I do strongly believe that when you're apologizing to someone,

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Speaker 1: it needs to be for no other reason than to

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Speaker 1: just clear your own air and not expect an apology

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Speaker 1: and return. Oh so I know, and I know I

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Speaker 1: knew it was going to hit somewhere with you because

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Speaker 1: I you were like, so I apologize, and then I

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Speaker 1: wanted her to apologize, and then we were just going

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Speaker 1: to move forward. So I get stuck in this place

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Speaker 1: that I feel like I apologize a lot. Well, you

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Speaker 1: own things I do like I want. I love to

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Speaker 1: own too. But what I've learned in all my ownership

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Speaker 1: it is not everybody. Not everybody likes to own, and

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Speaker 1: not everybody can own. They're on a different path they

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Speaker 1: could be. It's not a lesser path or a shorter

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Speaker 1: path or a slower path, which is different. And I

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Speaker 1: think we cannot expect the ownership from the other person,

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Speaker 1: and we can't apologize to have them own. We can

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Speaker 1: only apologize to own and know that we've done what

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Speaker 1: we can do in this situation. Yes, which in theory

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Speaker 1: I agree with. I know and can know what we

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Speaker 1: all say. I mean, listen, also me, I had similar

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Speaker 1: situations where I'm like, okay, so I'm sorry, and then

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Speaker 1: I just give that dramatic pause and tea up like no,

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Speaker 1: go ahead, go ahead. I just feel like there was

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Speaker 1: nothing that. The only thing that I will say to

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Speaker 1: this is I didn't feel like you really truly had

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Speaker 1: to apologize as many times as you did. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: know I apologized a lot, like I think because my

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Speaker 1: emotions were so up and down. That's why I felt

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Speaker 1: like I had to apologize. I mean enough. That person

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Speaker 1: even said but that's the thing, and that's not fair

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Speaker 1: because she's oversepped a boundary too. Yes, I mean, we

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Speaker 1: both over stepped boundaries for sure, But like, you don't

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Speaker 1: apologize for your emotions, like if I'm acting irrational, mean,

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Speaker 1: bitchy whatever. I can say I'm sorry for that, but

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Speaker 1: then don't apologize again and again to say I'm sorry again. True,

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Speaker 1: But what happens is when the emotions are up and down,

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Speaker 1: you go from yes, I agree with you. The problem

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Speaker 1: is now is the last thing that I sent, which

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Speaker 1: was nice, I was blocked. So it's like out there

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Speaker 1: in the air with like the meanest things ending between

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Speaker 1: both of us, and I cannot let it go because

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Speaker 1: you okay, can you not let it go because some

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Speaker 1: she doesn't like you now? Or do you feel like

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Speaker 1: you did something wrong, or because you just like what

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Speaker 1: what part of it? Do not? Can you not let

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Speaker 1: go because for me, you like I don't I don't

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Speaker 1: like to have Like I'm trying to think of a

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Speaker 1: situation where it's like I don't like the energy and

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Speaker 1: I don't like to know that, like I'm a the

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Speaker 1: new but I'm not bad, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Like I didn't I didn't do anything wrong, Like I apologize,

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Speaker 1: like come on, let's all like it. So here's the

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Speaker 1: other side of that. Like I live in a small town,

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Speaker 1: the woman lives in my town. We have a lot

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Speaker 1: of similar things that we do I have to see

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Speaker 1: her so it is on let me devil's advocate for

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Speaker 1: her for four seconds, even though I'm definitely on your team.

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Speaker 1: That's fine, I'm here for that, I know, but you

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Speaker 1: know I'm like a team team. I'm just wondering because

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Speaker 1: I've gotten to a point before where sometimes the blocking

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Speaker 1: is just a boundary of like, no more noise for

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Speaker 1: a second. Why sort this out and take the pieces

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Speaker 1: that I can take, own the pieces that I can take.

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Speaker 1: So maybe the blocking and the un following is just

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Speaker 1: her way of going. I just need like a four

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Speaker 1: minute break. This has gotten heated and I want to

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Speaker 1: be able to have a different conversation astion with you,

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Speaker 1: but just not right now. Probably I could see that

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Speaker 1: that's that's the healthy version of her, the other this person.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if she's healthy enough to healthy

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Speaker 1: and unhealthy, But everything the unhealthy is because of who

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Speaker 1: it's connected with. And I think again, I what I

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Speaker 1: would love to see in this situation for you is

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Speaker 1: for you to stand in your truth and go, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you were emotional, you were a little up and down,

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Speaker 1: but it was also a very unfair that happened to you,

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Speaker 1: a very unfair thing that happened to you, the timing

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Speaker 1: of it all, it was not cool. And then what

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Speaker 1: she followed up with was not great. So the fact

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Speaker 1: that you're dealing with that emotion on top of other

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Speaker 1: emotional stuff you're going through in your life, like stand

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Speaker 1: in your truth and go you know what, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not the bad person in this and like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I owned you, already owned you owned your stuff. That's amazing.

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Speaker 1: And now that's on her to not, you know, to

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Speaker 1: to maybe do what Christ and saying, or she doesn't

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Speaker 1: have the like too much for her emotionally too so

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Speaker 1: once she may have to do the same thing. I

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Speaker 1: get that, but God, that drives me crazy. I hate

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Speaker 1: having Oh I hate I want to be very clear.

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Speaker 1: I don't like the feeling you're having. And I know

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Speaker 1: that we have a lot of mutual friends ish and

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Speaker 1: it literally kills me. All I think about is like, well,

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Speaker 1: what did she say to so and so? Because I

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Speaker 1: know that she has said things not nice to pet,

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Speaker 1: you know, and so it's like I probably have too though,

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Speaker 1: you know. So It's just like that drives me crazy.

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Speaker 1: You just have to let a little time, in a

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Speaker 1: little space, in a little air I think, yeah, because

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Speaker 1: something very similar, and what are you going to do

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Speaker 1: with well today, y'all gonna make you shut out on

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Speaker 1: that you did not email her? Well, I'm blocked, and

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Speaker 1: she didn't need high stuff. All of the things I

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Speaker 1: would have been by the way, all of them. I

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Speaker 1: sent a little message. There was not an apology through

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Speaker 1: a window. It was not an apology, but it was

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Speaker 1: kind of wrapping it up in a bow like, look,

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Speaker 1: we have to see each other kind of thing. And

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Speaker 1: it was kind and it was ever. But I'm still blocked.

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Speaker 1: Where did you send it? I texted her and it's great,

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Speaker 1: it's still blocked. Oh she didn't get it? Can friend? Well,

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Speaker 1: here's can't you just do it at one of the

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Speaker 1: kids practices that you might be at? Yeah, nothing like

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Speaker 1: a juice box of soccer practice and confrontation, which is like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, so yeah, I might have to do

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Speaker 1: in person. I don't know. I haven't decided. Um, okay,

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Speaker 1: I want to put a pin in this conversation, okay,

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Speaker 1: because I think we need to sit with it for

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Speaker 1: a hot minute. I'm going to block it and I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna follow it, and I'm gonna childish we've all done it.

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Speaker 1: We've all done it. I can't even echo enough how

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Speaker 1: I've had this exact the very similar situation. It's like

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Speaker 1: one of my friends was like, I can't believe she

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Speaker 1: blocked it, and followed I was like, well, I kind

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Speaker 1: of did it first. I don't think that's childish that

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Speaker 1: were all done it. We get emotional, we get that's

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Speaker 1: the first reaction, be like I'm I'm blocking you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean, Like I'm blocking them. It's like it's

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Speaker 1: the first emotional reaction that we have, and it's really

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Speaker 1: our first line of defense in the social media and

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Speaker 1: life we live in to get this person like out

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Speaker 1: of your orbit for a minute, right, I mean it

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Speaker 1: is a boundary, Like I get that, Like I did

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Speaker 1: it so I don't have to see her stuff, right right, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna put a little pin in it and we're

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Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna come back because and talk about that.

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Speaker 1: But first we're gonna get an incredible guest on. Her

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Speaker 1: name is Rebecca Wolf and she actually um, she's a

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Speaker 1: freelance writer, UM since she was sixteen. She actually helped

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Speaker 1: write some of the Chicken Suit for The Teenage Soul,

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Speaker 1: which if you're our age, I know, it was like

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Speaker 1: one of the iconic, iconic. Um. She's got a new

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Speaker 1: memoir out right now. It's called All of This, a

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Speaker 1: Memoir of Death and Desire um, and it's basically about well,

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Speaker 1: we'll have her talk about it. But she she asked

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Speaker 1: for a divorce and then her then her husband got

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Speaker 1: pancreatic stage four cancer, so she end up staying with them.

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Speaker 1: And anyways, we're gonna get her on blizz first, let's

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Speaker 1: take a break. So, Rebecca, we are so excited to

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Speaker 1: have you on Wine Down. UM. I mean the girls were, um,

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Speaker 1: just kind of debriefing before we started recording. And first

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Speaker 1: of all, the soup books, Oh my goodness, I mean

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Speaker 1: that was like our childhood. Yes, I love that. I

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Speaker 1: like literally iconic pieces of literature of them at home,

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Speaker 1: and I like them like so many copies for the teacher, Soul,

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Speaker 1: for my heart, soul, for my soul soul. I was like,

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Speaker 1: sup me up, animal vegetarian, very ironic. Yeah, same same. Um.

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Speaker 1: How did you start writing on those books? Um? I

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Speaker 1: So when the first book came out, which I believe

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Speaker 1: was like around nine four, I was in middle school.

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Speaker 1: I submitted a story to the like you could submit

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Speaker 1: them in those days. So I submitted a story that

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Speaker 1: I wrote like in my ninth grade English class to

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Speaker 1: the second Chicken Soup for the Teenage Soul Too, and

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Speaker 1: it was published and then the woman who ran it

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Speaker 1: kind of reached out to me and she's like, do

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Speaker 1: you have anything else? And I was like, are you

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Speaker 1: kidding me? I'd like, you know, I've been writing my whole,

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Speaker 1: you know, fourteen years of being a person. So I

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Speaker 1: sent like a bunch of other stories and poems and

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Speaker 1: she ended up hiring me. So I wrote. I wrote

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Speaker 1: for the book series through high school and then I

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Speaker 1: didn't even go to college. I went straight to work

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Speaker 1: for the book and then I toured on Their Behalf

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Speaker 1: and like spoke about writing through trauma like two teens,

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Speaker 1: and um, you know, it's kind of like a spokesperson

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Speaker 1: for the for the Teenage Soul books and the Team

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Speaker 1: Love series books which came out afterwards. And yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was just like kind of a flukey thing, like I

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Speaker 1: submitted a story for extra credit and it turned into

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Speaker 1: like a career. I deferred my college admission and never

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Speaker 1: went to college. Very fulfilling, though it has to be right.

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Speaker 1: I mean I'm assuming that's not just normal work, that's

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Speaker 1: really powerful work. Yeah. And I was, you know, I

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Speaker 1: was eighteen, so I had like an adult job at eighteen,

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Speaker 1: Like I went to work every day in an office

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Speaker 1: and I edited. I I also go strow and edited too,

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Speaker 1: So I was doing way more than just you know,

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Speaker 1: writing you know, a few stories, like I was actually

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Speaker 1: working full time. Um, and then I and then I

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Speaker 1: went from there into freelancing. And I moved to London

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Speaker 1: for a year and wrote wrote you know, travel stuff

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Speaker 1: and music stuff, and I just sort of kept going. Um.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so I've been I've been writing about my

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Speaker 1: life for you know, twenty five years, and now you

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Speaker 1: have your new memoir out, which that out in August,

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Speaker 1: and um it's called All of This And was that

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Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, I'm so excited to get

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Speaker 1: that book because I just I love, um the fact

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Speaker 1: that you know, you were speaking in your life and

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Speaker 1: you're being vulnerable and and is the book mostly like

395
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Speaker 1: give me like the elevator pitch of the book for sure? Um.

396
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Speaker 1: So I have been I've been writing on the internet

397
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Speaker 1: my whole through my whole twenties. I had a blog

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Speaker 1: called Girls Gun Child that I started in two thousand

399
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Speaker 1: five when I had my first child, a son, UM.

400
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:38,639
Speaker 1: I got pregnant with him really young, didn't have a community,

401
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 1: so I started writing about it online. And this was

402
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Speaker 1: like in the beginning, I was like sort of an

403
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Speaker 1: early one of the early mommy bloggers. UM and I

404
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,720
Speaker 1: did that forever for years, For over ten years, I

405
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 1: wrote about my experience as a mother. UM found an

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Speaker 1: incredible community online. Have been writing ever since. And I,

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Speaker 1: you know, had had been writing, had had written about

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Speaker 1: my marriage. But you know, I I wrote mainly metaphorically,

409
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Speaker 1: so if something massive happened to us, I would write,

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Speaker 1: you know, about it more in it, you know, symbolically

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Speaker 1: that I would you know, really detail and flesh out

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Speaker 1: the issues that we're having in our marriage, because we

413
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Speaker 1: really from the beginning struggled our marriage. You know, we

414
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Speaker 1: were barely we barely need each other when I married him, UM,

415
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Speaker 1: I got pregnant, we looped to Vegas. We sort of

416
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 1: like tried to make it work, kept trying to make

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Speaker 1: it work. Had you know, good moments and good years,

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Speaker 1: well good months, good weeks, UM, but it was mainly,

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Speaker 1: you know, it was mainly a pretty tumultuous, toxic marriage

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Speaker 1: that just got worse and worse as the years went on.

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Speaker 1: And when I was finally and I finally said to him,

422
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 1: I want to divorce. I don't love you anymore. I

423
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,439
Speaker 1: can't be in this marriage anymore. It's it's killing me,

424
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 1: Like I I felt that way. I was at the

425
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,640
Speaker 1: point where I was like, if I don't get out

426
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: of this marriage, like something happened to me, because it

427
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,439
Speaker 1: was it was it was miserable. How many years at

428
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 1: that point. We we've been married for over thirteen years

429
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 1: at that point, yeah, yeah, so and we had four children, UM,

430
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 1: the oldest being thirteen, right, because I was pregnant when

431
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: I married him. Um, And he was like okay, And

432
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 1: so I was actively looking into, you know, getting another

433
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: place and doing all the things that you do when

434
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 1: you're separating. When he suddenly had horrible stomach ache, horrible

435
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 1: like keeled over, needed to go to the hospital. Went

436
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: to the hospital. Um, they diagnosed him in the e

437
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 1: r with stage four pancreatic cancer that had already metastasized

438
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,199
Speaker 1: into his liver and lymp notes. So he was it

439
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 1: was at the point of no return, like it was

440
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:53,360
Speaker 1: a terminal diagnosis. Um. And we weren't even speaking when

441
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: he was in the hospital, like we hadn't we hadn't

442
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 1: been speaking the entire week. UM. So you can imagine,

443
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: you know, being a situation wanting desperately to get out

444
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: of your marriage finally saying I'm done, I'm out, actively

445
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:12,919
Speaker 1: pursuing divorce, and your husband is suddenly diagnosed with terminal cancer.

446
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 1: So UM, that phone call. All the feelings that I felt,

447
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 1: you know, when he called me from the hospital obviously

448
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 1: were very complicated. UM. And I, you know, my parents

449
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 1: came up. I went straight to the hospital as soon

450
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,439
Speaker 1: as I could, and I essentially stayed with him too,

451
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 1: care of him for his his the four months that

452
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 1: he between diagnosis and death. It was four months, and

453
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 1: I was, you know, I was with him the whole time,

454
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: took care of him. UM. Navigating that as somebody who

455
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: wanted to leave him was UM, you know, it was

456
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 1: it was a lot. It was trying to find closure.

457
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 1: It was trying to trying to you know, kind of

458
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: go back and and create as loving and supportive and

459
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: ending as I could give him. Um. Obviously there was

460
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: a lot of unresolved anger and and there were feelings

461
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 1: of relief knowing that he wasn't going to be in

462
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 1: my life anymore. Um, you know, which took me years

463
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 1: to feel like I could say out loud, because you know,

464
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: when someone dies, you're not supposed to feel relieved. You're

465
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,919
Speaker 1: supposed to be, you know, feel deep grief, which is

466
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: which is what I felt too. And obviously, I, you know,

467
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: wanted my children no longer have a father, and I

468
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,439
Speaker 1: would think it was my grief was there was a

469
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 1: lot of my grief was was you know, was for them,

470
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: but I didn't want to be with him anymore. I

471
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: didn't want him to die, but I didn't want to

472
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: be with him anymore. So a lot of my experience,

473
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: what my experience was after his death was similar to

474
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 1: what you know, a woman coming out of a divorce

475
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 1: might feel, which is I'm free, Oh my god. Like

476
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: I got married at twenty three years old, right like

477
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: I had four kids by the time I was thirty.

478
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: I was thirty seven year old widow, and I was like,

479
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: I have a body and this is I won life.

480
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: And I know how fast a person can go from

481
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: me healthy to dead? And what am I doing? How

482
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: what am I? What do I want? This is like, so, I,

483
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: you know, my experience after he died was really sort

484
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: of in midlife you know, midlife midlife adjacent um, you know,

485
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 1: sort of catharsis and awakening um that I don't think

486
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: I would have had if he died. I don't think

487
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 1: I would have had even necessarily if we just divorced.

488
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: I think it was really a combination of feeling free

489
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: and alive. Right, Um, So that's what my books about.

490
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: My book is about my experience navigating his death, our marriage,

491
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: and my life after he died. Morning losses in all

492
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: the ways, Yeah, and just all the different ways. Grief

493
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 1: is so complicated, and we don't talk about that. We

494
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 1: don't talk about the relief elements. We don't talk about

495
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: you know, sex after death and like how the two

496
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: are connected. Um, you know, we don't. We don't. There's

497
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: so many things that we're not supposed to talk about,

498
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 1: specifically as women and mothers. Right, Like, you're a mother

499
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: and you're supposed to be You're supposed to be the harbor,

500
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: not the ship. You're supposed to be the safe place.

501
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: You're not supposed to explore. You're not supposed to talk

502
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 1: about your complicated feelings. You're supposed to make sure that

503
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: everyone else feels held and taken care of, and you're

504
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 1: supposed to put yourself last. And I think, you know,

505
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 1: I spent my marriage and my you know, the last

506
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,959
Speaker 1: however many years of my life doing that, And you know,

507
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: I think for me, I was like, you know what,

508
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 1: I there has to be a way for me to

509
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 1: be able to have to feel like I'm alive in

510
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 1: my own life too. Um So that's also, you know,

511
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 1: been the journey. I'm probably gonna step over this or

512
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: land mind myself asking you this question, but I'm gonna

513
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 1: hear me out when I say this. So when you

514
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 1: say that, like you felt relief when he um when

515
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 1: he eventually passed, was there a piece of you that

516
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 1: felt shame for feeling that because of your kids? I mean,

517
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: I mean my relief that my that relief that I

518
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: was feeling was was tied to my own feelings, my

519
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: feelings for them. I was not relieved that they no

520
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: longer had a father. I was relieved. I just want

521
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: to make that clear, because when I heard you, I'm like,

522
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: because in my mind, I'm like, you know, we us

523
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 1: to have I'm like, yes, I'm so happy to be

524
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: out of my marriage, and I wouldn't um. Okay, I'll

525
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: say this, Like my first abuser, he committed suicide, he died.

526
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: I felt relief. But where I struggled was I'm like,

527
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: but he I felt bad for saying I had a

528
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: relief because he had children. And so what I just did.

529
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: And when I heard that, my first initial thought was

530
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: I don't want someone to go what you wished your

531
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: husband to die? And now now they don't have kids.

532
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: Then now that they don't, they don't have a dad,

533
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: you know, So that's kind of like how I just

534
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: and I just want to make sure that like I

535
00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: want to make sure that you're like you're not you

536
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: don't get like attack to be like she wished the

537
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: father of her children. I never I never wish that

538
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: he died. I never said that. I never was wishing relieved.

539
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: But I could still think people could take that and

540
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: like run with it, right. But this has been my

541
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: whole beat with this book, is that when you say

542
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: you're relieved to not have somebody in your life anymore,

543
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean you're wishing for them to be dead.

544
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: I think we we we we automatically turn this into

545
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: this black and white thing. It's nuanced. There's so many

546
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: layers to this, and I think, you know, the oversimplification

547
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: of this conversation is the problem, and it's the reason

548
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: why I want to have the conversation, because it's valid

549
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: to feel whole sources of feelings at the same time.

550
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: Just because you're feeling relieved doesn't mean that you want

551
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: them dead. Just because you're feeling sad doesn't mean you

552
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: want to them to come back and be with you. Yeah,

553
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: And I hear you so much because I mean, I

554
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: remember I got the call when my first abuser commits suicide,

555
00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: and my first reaction was relief, And then I had

556
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: stayed with shame for so many years having that first

557
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: reaction because I'm like I should, but I did. I

558
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: felt safe, you know, for the first time in a

559
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: very long time, and like I shouldn't feel bad for

560
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: having that as a part of like the grieving process.

561
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, of course, Well, all relationships are so complicated.

562
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: We feel relieved when we get out of relationships, right

563
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: like we're in a bad relationship or we quit a job,

564
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: we feel relieved. That doesn't mean that there are other

565
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: feelings had, like the it's this thing with death. We

566
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: just we look at death as being this thing that

567
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: we're not allowed to have feelings about except these certain feelings.

568
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: But we allow ourselves to have the complicated feelings about

569
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: all other kinds of loss. That's just because death is

570
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: so final, we're not allowed to. We feel bad for

571
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: having complex human feelings. And everyone has those feelings. I'm

572
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: not like the first person to have them. I'm just

573
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: I want to have a conversation about nuance is because

574
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: I think it's important. I think it's important for you

575
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: not to feel bad for having that feeling. I think

576
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: that's so. That's so just like, of course you would

577
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: feel that way, and I think assuming that you wouldn't

578
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: is I think it's problematic. I think that we, you know,

579
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: we should give each other space for having true feelings

580
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: about you know, death well, And I think too, it's like,

581
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: you know, I know someone one of several people who

582
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: have had people that they were still married to who

583
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: had been sick and then when they passed, they feel

584
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: relief even I mean, you know, it's like I mean

585
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: it's relief for their spouse or it's relief for you know,

586
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: having to care for the spouse, you know, and I'm

587
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: sure they feel guilty for that too, But I think

588
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: that it's you know, very um. I think it's just

589
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: way more common. Like you said, I think we just

590
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: don't talk about it enough. Well, that is also something

591
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: that I want to talk about because caretaking is so hard.

592
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: It is so hard, and when you're taking care of somebody,

593
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: regardless of what you're relationship is, if they're the love

594
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: of your life, spending I mean I spent. I was

595
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: taking care of him for four months. It was gruesome

596
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: and brutal and horrific, and regardless of how I felt

597
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: about him, it would have been gruesome and horrific. And

598
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: you know when when people I remember at the end,

599
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: the doctors kept trying to give him He wasn't even

600
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: speaking at this point, and they doctors kept trying to

601
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: give him chemo pills. And I had said to them

602
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: at one point, I was like, what are you doing.

603
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: He's not even responsive. You're trying to put a pill

604
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: down his throw he can barely swallow. And they're like, well,

605
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: you know, some people want more time, and I was like,

606
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: more time with him, just lie like for what I

607
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: think this Like the prolonging of the death is not

608
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: the point. And I think for so many caretakers too,

609
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: It's like, even if you love somebody that your entire

610
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: life revolves around taking care of them. It is a

611
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: full time job. It is so overwhelming on so many

612
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: different respects, not not even taking under consideration when you

613
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: also have children and you're taking care of a dying

614
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: spouse while also taking care of four children, like it is,

615
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: how could you not feel relieved for that to be over?

616
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: That is it's excruciating and for everybody involved, it was

617
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: excruciating for him. He was in paying the entire time.

618
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: For my kids, I mean, it was awful for them

619
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: to see their father like that. I mean, he was

620
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: a complicated man when he was before he was dying.

621
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: For all of us, it wasn't just me that had

622
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: you know he was he was a person that had

623
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: you know, it was a person um. But yeah, I

624
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: felt relieved. They felt relieved when he died because he

625
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: was no longer in pain, because it was you know,

626
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: it was you know, I, I and and all of

627
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: that is valid too. I mean we we I held

628
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: space with them for all of their feelings too. I

629
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: was very honest to them about how I was feeling,

630
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: and they were very honest with me, and we had

631
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: all different feelings and we still do four years later,

632
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: and we talked about them and it doesn't mean that

633
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: we don't love him. Um. To have you know, unresolved anger,

634
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: all these things. It's so important to talk about this

635
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: and for children to feel like they can talk about this,

636
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: and for us not to shame each other or feel

637
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: guilty for having real feelings about people who are human

638
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: and complicated just like we are. Christen, you're having some

639
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 1: you wanna you want to speak on it or she's

640
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: new to me. I'm very rarely speechless, so UM, I'm

641
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: trying really hard to frame it. I'm a very open

642
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: feeler and I'm a very open dialogue person, and grief

643
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: is something that has just inundated me for probably the

644
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: last year and a half. I lost five people in

645
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: eleven months, and one of them was my dad and

646
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: that was a year ago. So I'm trying to collect

647
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: myself for a second, just to be able to frame

648
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 1: this in a way that is sharing, um, but also

649
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: not narrating completely somebody else's story. UM. But the relief,

650
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: it's like I've been in the depths of grief and

651
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: trauma therapy. I have gone to a grief intensive like

652
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: I've really been in this, like I'm feeling at all.

653
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 1: I'm talking about it. But oh guys, and I'm not

654
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,320
Speaker 1: a pretty crier, like, oh my gosh, I'm literally wrapping

655
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 1: my arms around you. I I know who needs a

656
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 1: pretty crier. I don't want to pretty prior here. Well,

657
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: I sit next to someone that could really wouldn't any

658
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: award there. I'm pretty pretty car. I got a big

659
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 1: vein that comes through my I don't worry. Yeah, Katherine,

660
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: there there's there's my tough love. Always I've seen a

661
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: ruggly cry let me should usually just look like a

662
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,919
Speaker 1: movie scene. No, I just it hit, like hit this

663
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: super soft part of my heart when you talked about

664
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: the relief that comes with it, because my it's not

665
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: for a lack of onian. I am really emotional, Like

666
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: this one really got me, you guys. I watched my

667
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:29,919
Speaker 1: mom caretake my dad for so long. Um, he did

668
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,879
Speaker 1: not take care of himself. Drugs and alcohol. We don't

669
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: talk about that. So that's hard for me because I'm

670
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: the trailblazer and like I say, what is true and

671
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: what is real, and the relief is real. It is

672
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: so real, And that has been part of what I've

673
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: had to talk about a lot, is just the unexpected,

674
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: like it is. I didn't have the fairy tale. I

675
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: didn't bury my hero. In a lot of ways, I

676
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: feel like and I don't need any skepticism from anybody online,

677
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 1: so help me God. In a lot of ways, I

678
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: felt like I buried a child. Yeah, I grew him.

679
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: I dealt it with his and his unfairness and the

680
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: addiction and all of the tidal waves that come with

681
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 1: the addiction. And the struggle I'm having recently is watching

682
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: my mom find the freedom and she doesn't not deserve that.

683
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 1: It looks really crazy sometimes, like I can obviously tell

684
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: she's going through something. Um But when you said that,

685
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: I was just like I was trying to fight back

686
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:41,919
Speaker 1: the tears and I was like, Okay, I'm gonna table

687
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 1: this and probably lose it when we get off of here.

688
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: But man, like everything you were saying was like a sentence.

689
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: It wasn't even like it was from me. It was

690
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: like straight from God, straight to me, like the most

691
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: seen words of what that experience has been. And I've

692
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: never felt shameful for feeling the way I because I've

693
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: just owned it for too long now. Like I started

694
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: at seven, I just turned forty in January, so I'm

695
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: thirteen years deep in therapy and owning it. Alcoholism and

696
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 1: all of the ripple effects that has on everyone, the

697
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 1: lost relationships that are like you know, consequence of that,

698
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 1: um healthy boundaries Like I love boundaries. We talked about that.

699
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: I keen love boundaries because it's what has helped me

700
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: preserve the things I'm earning and the things I'm doing

701
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,720
Speaker 1: and working so hard for. But the freedom and relief

702
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: of death is really hard to navigate, and it comes

703
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 1: with a lot of big feelings. Especially I am a Christian,

704
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: Jesus loving person, and so I felt really for him.

705
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: Almost the first thing I said to my mom is

706
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: he has all the answers to all the questions and

707
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: he just gets to take a minute, like the most worrisome,

708
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: wound up, anger, rage filled, unpredictable person and now he

709
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: has the answers. And I felt relief, and I felt

710
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: like there's you know, ways now that we all can

711
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: navigate and commune and connect differently because we have the

712
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,439
Speaker 1: opportunity to do so. Without the big black cloud. Yeah,

713
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: the unpredictability. It's a lot that and that feeling like

714
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: that you're having is this is this is like, this

715
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 1: is all I want to talk about because it's so

716
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: important to validate that those feelings because they're so like

717
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: that's that's. First of all, I think it's far more

718
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 1: common to have that feeling than not to because all

719
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:42,399
Speaker 1: of our relationships are complicated. But when you bury somebody

720
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: that that was you know, that was toxic for you

721
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: and a lot of reasons. That doesn't mean you don't

722
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,359
Speaker 1: love them, that that you didn't love them, but that

723
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: I mean we everyone in my house, what we would

724
00:39:55,600 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 1: walk on eggshelves, all of us for years and when

725
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: that went away and you and I think also, I don't.

726
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: I think there's this other part of grief when somebody

727
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: dies and you're not just grieving them, if you're grieving

728
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: the relationship because you realize how much easier it is

729
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 1: to live without them. I think that is a very

730
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 1: real grief. I think that is a very valid grief

731
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: to have when you realize, oh my god, like this

732
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: person made my life really hard and now they're gone

733
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,399
Speaker 1: in my life. Isn't his heart, and that doesn't mean

734
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 1: that there isn't intense sadness that they're gone, but recognizing

735
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: that you what your life looked like with them in

736
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 1: it versus with them out of it, and that a

737
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: lot of that is easier and not harder, which is

738
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: the assumption, right. The assumption is that this person is

739
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 1: gone and your life is in pieces. So what happens

740
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: when the person is gone in your life actually feels

741
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: like you can finally put it back together. That's that's

742
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: so valid and I think extremely common, and we don't

743
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 1: talk about that, so we just sort of you know,

744
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,760
Speaker 1: my my experience navigating this, I felt really alone because

745
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 1: I couldn't talk about this because, you know, is having

746
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 1: all of these feelings that I couldn't share publicly that

747
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 1: I couldn't even admit to myself without feeling bad about

748
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: having them because I get to be alive. I get

749
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: to be the one who watches my kids grow up.

750
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: And there's so much guilt tied in that too, and

751
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: being the survivor. And I'm sure your mom has those

752
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,919
Speaker 1: feelings too, like where she still gets to be here,

753
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: but the idea, like the relief that you have for

754
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: her like is so that is. That's love. That's love, right.

755
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,800
Speaker 1: The and and the relief that somebody isn't no longer

756
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: in your life is also loved because when you love somebody,

757
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 1: you tolerate them in ways you wouldn't otherwise. So I

758
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: think a lot of our relationships with people, especially family members,

759
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 1: that we love but also make our lives really hard.

760
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 1: I think there is relief when they die because we

761
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: love them, not because we don't. Because I stayed with

762
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: him for years because there was love there, and I

763
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: tolerated him for years because there was love there, and

764
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: I stuck with him, and I nursed him, and I

765
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 1: was there with him to the end because there was

766
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: love there. So it comes from a place of love,

767
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: the relief because I couldn't just leave, even when I

768
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: wanted to. You can't just leave your father, right, he's

769
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: your like the feel like there's this feeling where you

770
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 1: you you can breathe and be in your body and

771
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: in your life without this person that you that you

772
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: didn't know how to to leave when he was in

773
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: it right any more, in the loss of them before

774
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 1: they're dead. In so many ways too, that is a

775
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 1: whole other part we My marriage was over long before

776
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,760
Speaker 1: he died, and I had already mourned him as my husband.

777
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 1: I had already grieved our marriage long before he died,

778
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: so that was already done. My grief was tied up

779
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: in my children really for the first year, and I

780
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 1: didn't even give myself a chance to think about how

781
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: I was stealing until I knew that they were okay.

782
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: As soon as I was like, okay, they're okay, now

783
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: it's my turn to figure out how I am. And

784
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: I think it's something to be said to like, the

785
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 1: grief shows up all different parts, and I mean, I'm

786
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,240
Speaker 1: still like grieving my ex husband, and there are moments

787
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,399
Speaker 1: that just say randomly come up and it's like their

788
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: grief is is not just like all right, I'm over

789
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: it and I'm done. It's like you're still because to me,

790
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: it's like no one could have told me that it

791
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: was a death at the time, because it's like that

792
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 1: was you know, he was gone disappear, you know, I mean,

793
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: like you didn't disappear, but like when you went to

794
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: rehab the first time, I'm like I couldn't talk to him,

795
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: I couldn't see him. It was like to me, it

796
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: was like this like death and like he's just boom

797
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 1: gone and granted, yeah, he's you know, very much alive.

798
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,320
Speaker 1: And in me and my kid's life is it's still

799
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 1: like it's still grief whether you lose someone or or

800
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: you don't you know. And so I think you're in

801
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: a podcast with your friend and then this sweet thing

802
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: comes on starts talking about death and grief just hits

803
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: you like a TidalWave because it happened. But that's how

804
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 1: grief is too, and that's the thing. It's like, it's

805
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: just it's not like you spend a year of crying

806
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: and then you're over it. Like every look my my

807
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 1: my kids, my daughters, my twin daughters, their birthdays on Tuesday,

808
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,240
Speaker 1: whenever there's a birthday, whenever I'm like, okay, I'm gonna,

809
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: I'm gonna. I'm like waiting for it to hit me

810
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: and it'll all be like at Trader Joe's, like getting

811
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: pasta and like just start because it does. It's like

812
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: it finds you when you least expected, or when like

813
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: you're triggered by a smell or a song or like

814
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: something it's and then that's it. And I think that

815
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 1: grief again, like it doesn't end like I'm going to

816
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,879
Speaker 1: carry this. My children are going to carry this with

817
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: us forever. We're always going to have you know, we're

818
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: always going to grieve him, and it's always going to

819
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: be complicated, and it's going to change, and it's fluid,

820
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 1: and you know, there have been plenty of times where

821
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: I've missed him and wished he was here, and then

822
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: there have been other times where I was like, thank god,

823
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 1: he isn't all of that can live together, it's all,

824
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: you know, it's a both end of life. It's the

825
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: carrying the grief and the gratitude at once. Totally. It's

826
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: my ampersand on my hand um to have oath is.

827
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 1: It's funny we talked about that last week, like you

828
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: can't you can't time triggers. That's another like big thing

829
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 1: to you, just you you can't time when when it's

830
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 1: going to come up. But I wanted to run out

831
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,879
Speaker 1: of this room just now. Did you see me looking

832
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,439
Speaker 1: for exit strategy behind you? I think it's just it's

833
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 1: so interesting though too, because I'm like the you have

834
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: the relief and things like man like sometimes would be

835
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: so easy but then also easier with certain things if

836
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 1: but then then then you also struggle with this this

837
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: side effect too of like you know, not having the

838
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:37,439
Speaker 1: parents in your life as well. So it's like it's

839
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: it's hard. I think it's just hard, you know, I

840
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: think it's all. I think it's all hard. I think

841
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 1: all I think. I think it's all hard. And I

842
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 1: you know, there are times, you know, a lot of

843
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,439
Speaker 1: my friends are divorced when they're like, oh my god,

844
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,399
Speaker 1: and they're dealing with custody stuff and the drama dealing

845
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 1: with an X, which I don't I don't know what

846
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:58,399
Speaker 1: that's like, and it sounds really awful to me. Um,

847
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: And and you know, I I think in a lot

848
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 1: of ways is harder to navigate all of the stuff

849
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,280
Speaker 1: with a partner that's no longer a partner, former partner.

850
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: And but then there are also times where you know,

851
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 1: something happens with my kids and there's I want to

852
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: like text him or oh my god, look at her

853
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 1: kids or you know, and like that that I can't

854
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: do that, and then it's harder for me. You know,

855
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 1: it's like we're it's it's it's you know it, It's

856
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 1: it's hard. It's all hard. Marriage is hard, divorce is hard,

857
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: death is hard. I I you know, I just you know,

858
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,720
Speaker 1: I think they're all hard and complicated, and no one's

859
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 1: nothing is harder than the you know, for the other,

860
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 1: and no grief is worse than another person's grief. I

861
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 1: think it's it's all just really hard and really complicated,

862
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: and there's nothing wrong with any of the feelings that

863
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: any of us are having about any of the stuff.

864
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 1: It's it's it's all of this, which is probably that's

865
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 1: why it's all of us. Yeah, yeah, that's yeah, hence

866
00:46:58,000 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: the name. I mean, that's kind of my whole beat, right,

867
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 1: It's like, how do we how do we carry all

868
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 1: these feelings and the same basket without feeling bad about it?

869
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 1: And I think that's huge too, because there's so many

870
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: people that love to shed their opinions when on things

871
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 1: that they haven't gone through it, or that's that's it's

872
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: that's that's a tricky basket. Yeah, And I think I

873
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: think a lot of that comes from internal shame. I

874
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 1: think all all shame, you know, comes from internal shame,

875
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 1: the way we shame others. I don't think people who

876
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,359
Speaker 1: don't feel internal shame shame other people. Um, I think

877
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: I think it's very much. I think it's it's you know,

878
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 1: we're talking about triggers. I think a lot of people

879
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 1: being honest about their experience is very triggering for others.

880
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: And look, I've been writing on the internet for twenty years.

881
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 1: I've you know, I've heard it all. I've been judged, criticized, shamed,

882
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 1: you know, my entire career. So I think for me, Um,

883
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 1: I don't know that I could have written a book

884
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: like this if I didn't have like, uh, you know,

885
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: have experience navigating that and sort of you know, getting

886
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 1: to the other side, have been saying, you know what

887
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: this is, I don't feel bad. I don't and you

888
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 1: can't make me feel bad if I don't feel bad.

889
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 1: And that's sort of the thing, right, It's like when

890
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:20,760
Speaker 1: you get to a point when you're like, I've really

891
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 1: I've really done the work and explored these feelings and

892
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,919
Speaker 1: I feel like this is where I met I'm at

893
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 1: with them, and I'm okay with that that if people

894
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 1: other people aren't, like, okay, that's fair, so fair. I

895
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 1: will hold space for your feelings, but they're not mine,

896
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 1: you know. Doesn't that wrap up a weird talking Catherine,

897
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: Um Well, Rebecca, thank you so much for coming on

898
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 1: and I'm talking about something that you know obviously, UM,

899
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: a lot of people feel and they feel I'm sure

900
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 1: a lot of shame around. So UM, thank you for

901
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 1: for your words and what you what you've done for

902
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 1: not only my middle school heart but my adult heart now.

903
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for having me. I appreciate

904
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 1: you all of course. Alright, alright bye, Well some of

905
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: the stuff, UM, lots of emotions we have, like from

906
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: my soul. I couldn't even hide it from no, but

907
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 1: that's that's okay. I'm like, you should you should feel

908
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 1: And I was gonna like, ugly weep, could you hear it?

909
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 1: Like I couldn't swallow the tears? Yeah, I was like

910
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: I was. I was going to intersect because I'm always

911
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 1: like I remember when I can say it now. But

912
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: I was on Red Table Talk. I don't know the

913
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 1: premier day yet, but when I see someone cry, I

914
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: want to immediately be like, talk to me, what's the

915
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: emotion coming up? Because I saw Jada start to get

916
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 1: literia and I just stared at her until there was

917
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 1: a breaking conversation to be like do you want to

918
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,359
Speaker 1: talk about that? Because it's like I was like, I

919
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 1: want to like, I don't want you to shove it.

920
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,280
Speaker 1: I don't want you to push it down a minute

921
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: too because I was like she can see me, and

922
00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 1: I am like like like here sending out back here,

923
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 1: Holy Macron. But we're going to continue this conversation and

924
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:08,839
Speaker 1: also we're gonna unpin Catherine's conversation. So um, meet us

925
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: on the after show