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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff.

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Speaker 2: You're a weekly reminder that when bad things happen, there's

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Speaker 2: people trying to do good things, including people who are

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Speaker 2: not actually particularly good themselves, at least by the standards

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Speaker 2: of Margaret Kiljoy me your host. Hi, I'm Margaret Kiljoy

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Speaker 2: and my guest today to talk about this person who

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Speaker 2: did cool stuff. We have complicated feelings about who will

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Speaker 2: talk about a second, but first we're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about my guest. My guest is Molly Conger.

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Speaker 3: Oh, Margaret, I'm so excited to be here to talk

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Speaker 3: about this complicated anti hero. I'm intrigued.

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Speaker 2: Molly. You are the host of possibly the podcast I

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Speaker 2: listened to the most that isn't my own. I actually

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Speaker 2: don't listen to my own podcast. You are possibly the

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Speaker 2: podcast host that I listened to the most, which I

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Speaker 2: didn't mean to rhyme. You were the host of Weird

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Speaker 2: Little Guys. What's that show about. I've never heard of it.

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Speaker 3: It is the opposite of this show, right, It's about

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Speaker 3: people who are not cool and the stuff they did

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Speaker 3: extremely not cool.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I was listening to your show that I've

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Speaker 2: never heard of. Before then, I just said, I listened

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Speaker 2: to a lot and on a recent episode you were

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Speaker 2: talking about how rare redemption arcs are in your line

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Speaker 2: of work of study.

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Speaker 3: I believe in them, I just don't see them very often.

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Speaker 2: So I've wanted to do this particular episode for a while,

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Speaker 2: but I knew I wanted you specifically to be the guest.

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Speaker 2: And I think that today I am covering the patron

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Speaker 2: saint of Republicans who want to fight Ice. I recently

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Speaker 2: went up with our coworker James Stout to Minnesota to

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Speaker 2: learn about the movement there against Ice. Really that's true? Wow, Yeah, that's.

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Speaker 1: So crazy, and like, what does James do well?

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Speaker 2: James is actually the host of a different podcast called

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Speaker 2: It Could Happen Here, and he has a.

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Speaker 1: Really cool book out called Against the State that you

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Speaker 1: should buy.

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Speaker 3: That's true out now, order from your local anarchist bookstore.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, request it for your libraries.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I went up with James to Minnesota to learn

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Speaker 2: about the movie against Ice, which is wildly generalized, like

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Speaker 2: the whole Twin cities of Minneapolis and Saint Paul are

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Speaker 2: coming out to make noises at federal agents. Let's go

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Speaker 2: with that. And somewhere in my reporting about that, I

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Speaker 2: said something that surprised the listeners or readers or whatever,

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Speaker 2: because I said it in different formats. I said that

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Speaker 2: the people I talked to like they know Republicans who

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Speaker 2: are out in the streets helping defend people against ice.

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Speaker 2: And people said, but Republicans are the bad guys. And

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Speaker 2: you might think that you're not entirely wrong. The Republican

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Speaker 2: political party is. But most people actually identify more with

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Speaker 2: their neighbors than they do with their political labels, and

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Speaker 2: that is a good thing that should be encouraged. So

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Speaker 2: this week you probably haven't figured it out yet, but

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Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about a complicated man. And it's

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Speaker 2: not quite the story I thought I was going to tell.

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Speaker 2: It's still an interesting story. I'm going to talk about

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Speaker 2: a conservative Polish Catholic priest who was a major propagandist

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Speaker 2: for the Catholic Church in the nineteen twenties, including spreading

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Speaker 2: anti communism and anti Semitism and anti Freemason conspiracy theories.

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Speaker 3: I was gonna say, a lot of those twentieth century

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Speaker 3: Polish Catholic saints are like a Joseph McCarthy wet dream Yeah.

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk about some of the stuff he said.

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Speaker 2: When the Nazis invaded Poland, he refused to have abandoned

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Speaker 2: his post at the monastery. He worked at Iran, and

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Speaker 2: he helped mobilize Polish people against the Nazi invaders through

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Speaker 2: an effective propaganda campaign. He hosted thousands of Jewish refugees

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Speaker 2: who had fled the Nazis, and he died in Auschwitz

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Speaker 2: in one of the most tear jerking acts of self

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Speaker 2: sacrifice I've ever read about in my life.

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Speaker 3: Well, Margaret, I'm not sure I'm emotionally prepared for this.

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Speaker 3: I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 1: I am you got this.

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Speaker 3: Usually we just kind of have a fun time.

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Speaker 2: I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 3: I'm drinking my wine and rupier. I know we were

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Speaker 3: gonna be laughing. I didn't know we were going to Auschwitz.

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Speaker 2: We're not going to linger super hard. Most of the

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Speaker 2: stories just only focus on the Auschwitz part because people

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Speaker 2: love reading about trauma and writing about trauma and things

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Speaker 2: like that.

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Speaker 3: But the actual resistance part gets erased from a lot

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Speaker 3: of those narratives.

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Speaker 2: Right totally. I'm going to try and move my focus

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Speaker 2: where I can, but a lot of the sources I'm

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Speaker 2: working with Well, you are probably the opposite problem because

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Speaker 2: of what you read. But when I read these stories

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Speaker 2: for cool people did cool stuff, I'm always like, ugh,

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Speaker 2: is this a real biography? Is just a hagiography? And

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Speaker 2: I mean that metaphorically most of the time, but like

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Speaker 2: literally this time, it's literal. This time I read an

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Speaker 2: actual hagiography. I don't know how to pronounce that word,

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Speaker 2: but a biography of a saint. And so it's entirely

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Speaker 2: up this man's ass about how perfect he is. He

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Speaker 2: is so far from perfect, which actually makes him more

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Speaker 2: inner to me. So this isn't the redemption story that

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Speaker 2: I expected to tell. It's a little bit about a

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Speaker 2: man who changed his mind, but it's not a lot

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Speaker 2: a bit. It's less that he changed his political position

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Speaker 2: as much as what that political position meant in relationship

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Speaker 2: to the world at large changed around him.

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Speaker 3: No, that's so interesting. No, So I'm settling into the

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Speaker 3: idea of where we're about to go. I'm settling into it.

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Speaker 3: And right, so, these Polish Catholic priests in the twentieth century,

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Speaker 3: they were violently anti communists, many of them, but like

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Speaker 3: the Nazis, came to where he lived, right, he was conservative,

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Speaker 3: anti communists, probably pretty anti Semitic, just if I were

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Speaker 3: to guess sort of generally about the vibe where and

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Speaker 3: when he was living. But like, yeah, the Nazis came

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Speaker 3: to where he lived.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and he sure liked the Jewish people he lived

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Speaker 2: near more than he liked the Nazis.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I'm settling in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because today we are talking about Saint Maximilian Maria Colby. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I think after Joan of Arc, he's the second saint

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Speaker 2: I've talked about on this show.

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Speaker 3: And I think I was on the Joan of Arc episodes.

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Speaker 2: Oh were you really?

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Speaker 3: I'm so sorry to do this too. No, we're Saint Maxing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Have you ever heard of Saint max So the parish

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Speaker 3: that my husband went to growing up. I think at

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Speaker 3: some point, maybe early on in their establishment as a church,

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Speaker 3: they had a Polish parish priest. So all of the

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Speaker 3: relics they have are from Polish saints. I don't know

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Speaker 3: if they have a Maximilian Colby was one of them.

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Speaker 3: A beard hair, I'm not sure.

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Speaker 1: I know he's a Franciscan friar.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. The reliquary at his childhood parish is like all

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Speaker 3: Polish Saints.

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Speaker 2: Okay, wait, Sophie, what else have you heard about this guy?

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Speaker 1: The thing that I know about him is he's like

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Speaker 1: the patron state of like essentially like journalists.

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Speaker 3: Almost yeah, specifically radio operators. Ah, I did not know

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Speaker 3: about the radio part. I just I guess you got

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Speaker 3: to be doing a lot of ham radio to run resistance.

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Speaker 2: Well, he was doing hand radio beforehand, mostly as a

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Speaker 2: propaganda for the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 1: My like very good friend in college was training to

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Speaker 1: be a priest. We like met in college from Uganda

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Speaker 1: and we became very good friends and so like, I

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Speaker 1: have a good amount of random state knowledge thanks to

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Speaker 1: my friend father DAOs.

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Speaker 2: They're interesting people. Most Saints are genuinely interesting people, good

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Speaker 2: or bad. They're very rarely boring.

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Speaker 1: And if you're a Franciscan, I generally like you more.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Franciscans tend to have a chill vibe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this man's not chill.

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Speaker 1: Jesuits and Franciscans are usually like on the better part

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Speaker 1: of history for me in general.

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Speaker 4: Depending on where in history you are, right right, right right, yeah, well, yes,

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Speaker 4: like I mean, like modern day Jesuits are probably some

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Speaker 4: of the better you know what I'm just gonna shut

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Speaker 4: the fuck up and let Magpie do her podcast.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna go back to eating a potato.

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Speaker 2: Jesuits are more likely to be on the side of

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Speaker 2: social justice, but that also will be in many ways

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Speaker 2: socially conservative. That is, in my reading mostly of history.

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Speaker 3: And not of the present day.

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Speaker 2: I'm not actually particularly aware of what's happening with Catholic

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Speaker 2: Church in the present day, despite the way that I

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Speaker 2: probably come across.

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Speaker 3: We could get my husband in here to answer our questions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so before we can talk about Saint Max,

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Speaker 2: who no one calls, but I wrote Max throughout because

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Speaker 2: why would I write out a long word instead of

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Speaker 2: a short word. We get to talk about context.

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Speaker 3: That's my favorite thing.

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Speaker 2: You know that I know. I know me too, And

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Speaker 2: this is why I like your show. I like when

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Speaker 2: you realize that your show is just one episode.

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Speaker 3: We're one hundred hours into one story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just one complicated narrative, and I feel like

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Speaker 2: I'm also kind of do that, and it's really fun.

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Speaker 3: Because it turns out the way we teach history is wrong,

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Speaker 3: and it's not episodic and isolated, that every piece of

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Speaker 3: history is sort of contingent on the other pieces.

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Speaker 2: Right. For example, we're about to talk about Polish nationalism.

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Speaker 2: A lot of the work that I've done in the

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Speaker 2: show is about how European nationalism isn't necessarily what we

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Speaker 2: generally expect, and European nationalism actually creates a lot of

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Speaker 2: the modern socialist and leftist movement, and so it's complicated. Also,

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Speaker 2: a lot of right wing shit clearly comes out of

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Speaker 2: European nationalism. All nationalism is complicated, not just morally complicated,

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Speaker 2: but logistically complicated. Basically, there was a kingdom called Poland

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Speaker 2: from ten twenty five to seventeen ninety five. One of

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Speaker 2: my best friends in high school to his family had

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Speaker 2: recently come from there, and it certainly in the fact

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Speaker 2: that I could learn to pronounce his last name was Anyway, whatever.

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Speaker 3: Let's say, good luck pronouncing the names in this episode.

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Speaker 3: You will be getting emails.

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Speaker 2: I did a lot of translation of names. Yeah, sorry,

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Speaker 2: genuinely sorry. So in seventeen seventy two, the Kingdom of

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Speaker 2: Poland was partitioned off between some of its neighbors, Russia, Austria,

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Speaker 2: and Prussia. So basically all these empires were like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: well we want an Empire, and you're kind of piece

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Speaker 2: of that week, so we're just taking it. For one

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Speaker 2: hundred and twenty three years, there was no country on

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Speaker 2: a map called Poland, and to this, Hungarian nationalism and

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Speaker 2: Polish nationalism were like important in the history of leftism

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Speaker 2: in all these complicated ways. Poland was a Catholic country

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Speaker 2: with the largest Jewish community in the world. Most of

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Speaker 2: what I have read, and emphasis on what I have read,

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Speaker 2: because it is really hard to find honest sources about

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Speaker 2: any of this shit. Most of what I have read

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Speaker 2: has basically suggested that Poland treated Jews better than other

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Speaker 2: countries in Europe. Like you pointed out the history of

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Speaker 2: the Catholic Church being like particularly antisemitic in Poland, Right,

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Speaker 2: But that's it's complicated because also the fact that it

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Speaker 2: was a little better than most places in Europe is

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Speaker 2: like why there were so many Jews there.

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Speaker 3: Until the post World War two period Catholic Church realize like, oh,

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Speaker 3: we were a little bit complicit in this worldly The

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Speaker 3: entire Catholic Church was pretty it was entrenched into the whole.

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Speaker 2: Vibe, right, Yeah, and Poland was very Catholic, but it

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Speaker 2: was also very multi ethnic and multi cultural. And so

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Speaker 2: it had the largest group of Jews in the world.

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Speaker 2: But Poland didn't exist even though it had this going on.

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Speaker 2: It does exist, and it doesn't exist, and it's multi

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Speaker 2: ethnic as fuck, but it's also Catholic. Into the Russian

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Speaker 2: part of Poland, where we'll start with our subject's parents,

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Speaker 2: because I think that his parents, Like usually I don't

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Speaker 2: do too much on the parents. This guy's parents explains

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Speaker 2: him Julius Colby, Max's dad, And you're like, Colby that

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Speaker 2: just sounds like a random German name. It is Julius

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Speaker 2: Colby was ethnically German, but he's living in Russian Poland

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Speaker 2: because borders are fake. When he's twenty or so, he

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Speaker 2: marries a Polish woman a year older than him named

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Speaker 2: Marianna or Maria as is usually shortened, and her parents

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Speaker 2: were weavers. Best as I can tell this family, the

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Speaker 2: two of them after they married their lower middle class

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Speaker 2: or just generally working class. Maria is a midwife and

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Speaker 2: a nurse, and both her and Julius are weavers. I

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Speaker 2: read probably fifty accounts about this fucking thing this guy

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Speaker 2: for this because I was trying to find some really

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Speaker 2: specific information that none of the accounts include.

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Speaker 3: But a lot of information that's not flattering will have

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Speaker 3: been purged, right, It's very difficult to find unflattering information

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Speaker 3: about someone who has been canonized. Canonized.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so most of the accounts say that they were

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Speaker 2: weavers of fabric. Others say that they are basket weavers.

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Speaker 2: I believe that those are incorrect. I believe that they

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Speaker 2: were fabric weavers. They had looms. I believe mom didn't

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Speaker 2: actually want to get married at all. She had tried

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Speaker 2: to go become a nun. But this is czarist trolled Poland,

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Speaker 2: so she's not allowed to become a nun because the

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Speaker 2: czar has outlawed he has an outlaw Catholicism, like completely,

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Speaker 2: it's not illegal to be a Catholic. You just kind

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Speaker 2: of can't do anything about being a Catholic. There's no

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Speaker 2: monasteries or nunneries allowed, and so there's no monastic orders

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Speaker 2: for her to join. Also, a funct out of Catholic

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Speaker 2: Poles were deported to Siberia, so there's like the interesting

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Speaker 2: community of people I believe still there. The Russians really

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Speaker 2: like sending people to Siberia. I mean it's just so big,

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Speaker 2: that's true. It is to say, really big. It's one

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Speaker 2: of those things where it's like a little bit distorted

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Speaker 2: by the way that the map projections are done, but

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Speaker 2: it's only a little bit distorted.

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Speaker 3: Siberia is really really big, pretty empty. Yeah, you can

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Speaker 3: put a lot of Polish people in there.

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Speaker 2: That's true.

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Speaker 3: And they certainly tried it and they did.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And some of this anti Catholicism is religious intolerance,

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Speaker 2: but like all quote unquote religious intolerance, it's actually about

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Speaker 2: the structuring of power.

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Speaker 3: When you don't want a bunch of you know, stronghold

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Speaker 3: to the Catholic Church in your territory, because that is

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Speaker 3: money that is influenced that as a you know, I mean,

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Speaker 3: I guess we're kind of over this culturally, but you know,

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Speaker 3: these idea of the dual loyalty of the Catholic but

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Speaker 3: if you're the tzar, you have this cultural memory of

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Speaker 3: the pope being a foreign king.

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Speaker 2: Right, and also it is a Polish nationalist trait, and

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Speaker 2: they don't want an independent Poland. And Catholic Poles are

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Speaker 2: more likely to be like kind of like Irish Catholics,

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Speaker 2: they're a little bit like no partan identity, we want

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Speaker 2: her own thing, you know, so they can't have that.

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Speaker 2: So the czar says, no, I'm sorry, you can't be

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Speaker 2: a nun. And so she gets married to Dad instead,

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Speaker 2: and they're both Franchciscans, which is a particular flavor of

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Speaker 2: Roman Catholic where you're a little bit more zealous in

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Speaker 2: both cool and uncool ways. And in this case they've

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Speaker 2: both sworn vows of poverty. And this is a big

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Speaker 2: part of his upbringing. One biography quotes his mother reading,

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Speaker 2: ain't Anthony from the twelve hundreds talking about poverty. And

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna explain why I'm quoting this in a minute,

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Speaker 2: but this quote that his mother said, actually it is

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Speaker 2: I think is his brother's funeral. Two of his brothers

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Speaker 2: don't make it out of infancy, more or less like

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Speaker 2: one dies at one, one dies at four quote a

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Speaker 2: voluntary poverty and still stamina. But wealth the roads are

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Speaker 2: spiritual strength, because humans, rather than being masters of their wealth,

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Speaker 2: soon become servants of what they possess. For example, if

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Speaker 2: one suffers loss of material and possessions and is grieved

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Speaker 2: by that loss, he is slaved to his grief as

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Speaker 2: he formerly had been a slave to his material possessions.

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Speaker 2: And I don't actually wholeheartedly agree with the vow poverty stuff.

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Speaker 2: I've like, really it has been like one of the

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Speaker 2: main things I've been like talking about with my friends

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Speaker 2: this week.

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Speaker 3: About whatever. Anyway.

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Speaker 2: But the reason that this is interesting to me is

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Speaker 2: because it's basically what a guy we covered recently fourteen

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Speaker 2: hundred years earlier, Diogenes, the on Christian Greek philosopher who

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Speaker 2: liked peing on the rich but also masturbating in public,

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Speaker 2: who was voluntarily homeless and was actually both owned a

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Speaker 2: slave and enslaved at various points in his life. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: this is what Diogenes said. This is like, almost verbatim,

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Speaker 2: the idea that you're like Tyler Dirden's style, what you

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Speaker 2: own owns you.

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Speaker 3: This is a whole spectrum of people who have feelings

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Speaker 3: about apostolic poverty. So I just finished The Name of

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Speaker 3: the Rose. Oh my god, I listened to a bit

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Speaker 3: of that recently, and I'm trying to read the rest

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Speaker 3: of it. But specifically, yeah, anyway, whatever, Okay, em Berto

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Speaker 3: Echo wrote a book about it, speaking a little bit

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Speaker 3: about apostolic poverty, is what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, me too.

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Speaker 3: But the question is not whether Christ was poor. But

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Speaker 3: should the church be poor?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 3: Right, totally?

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Speaker 2: But do you know who shouldn't be poor?

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Speaker 3: Wow, that was beautiful. Oh, probably the companies that have

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Speaker 3: sponsored this show. That's right.

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Speaker 2: They have chosen to move into voluntary poverty by sponsoring us,

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Speaker 2: and so you should ignore their ads and let them

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Speaker 2: become poor. But just know that they keep that roof

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Speaker 2: over our Yeah, it's true. It's very important part of

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Speaker 2: it actually, and we're really grateful. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I love products and services, unlike Saint Francis. Unlike Saint Francis.

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Speaker 3: What a terrible man.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, here's some ads. We're back from ads, and I

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Speaker 2: don't want to talk shit in voluntary poverty particularly, but

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Speaker 2: I do a little bit in the episodes I do

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Speaker 2: about Diogenes. Basically, it's just like some people have too

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Speaker 2: much stuff, and you don't solve that by like just

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Speaker 2: not having stuff. But I can see the appeal. And

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Speaker 2: also it's a different time. I'm like, literally not trying

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Speaker 2: to cast judgment. I just I don't know, that's my

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Speaker 2: response whenever I read that stuff. Also, having watch Fight

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Speaker 2: Club as a teenager, it's very easy to just be like,

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Speaker 2: whoa man tis the stuff you own?

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Speaker 3: Owns you, but also think Tyler Durden and Saint Francis

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Speaker 3: had different approaches to the idea.

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Speaker 2: That's true, that's a good point. Yeah, Okay, anyway, whatever,

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Speaker 2: the family works hard as hell. They move around a bunch.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes they're freelance weaving on looms in their small apartment.

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Speaker 2: Other times they're living in crowded boarding houses and industrial

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Speaker 2: cities and working and weaving factories. The living in crowded

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Speaker 2: cities and the exposure of tuberculosis goes really badly for

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Speaker 2: some people.

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Speaker 3: We'll get to it.

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Speaker 2: They eventually wind up living in the suburbs, which doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean the same thing in nineteenth century Poland as it

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Speaker 2: does in twenty first century America.

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Speaker 3: I don't think suburbs even existed back then.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a little bit like as a small

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Speaker 2: town outside the city, it was referred to as suburbs.

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Speaker 2: Although also, I don't like my sources for this episode.

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Speaker 3: I'm very real.

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Speaker 2: All my sources are listed, but I read like one

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Speaker 2: book where I just saying once.

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Speaker 3: Once the beatification starts, the sourcing is gonna get dicey.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and honestly, like I think I would have

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Speaker 2: to read more Polish than I do in order to

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Speaker 2: get better information. That said, I believe I have a

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Speaker 2: reasonably accurate picture of this man's life, and I think

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00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,919
Speaker 2: it's a good story anyway, So you should keep listening,

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00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 2: dear listener, I just have annoyed of my sources there.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, Yeah, stop interrupting.

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Speaker 2: No no, no, no no. They're able to open a

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Speaker 2: little general store selling goods, and they're trying to mostly

376
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Speaker 2: sell their woven stuff, but advances in weaving put them

377
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Speaker 2: out of work with a lot of what they do.

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Speaker 2: They have five kids or four, depending on your sources.

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Speaker 2: Three of them survive to adulthood. After those kids, the

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Speaker 2: parents decide they want to up their religiousness a bit

381
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Speaker 2: and take a vow of abstinence together, which is old

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Speaker 2: timey Catholic birth control.

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Speaker 3: I was gonna say, I mean, at that point, you've

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Speaker 3: given birth enough times. Yeah, yeah, you're like, you know

385
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Speaker 3: what sex is lost? Whatever year this is, you got

386
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Speaker 3: to stop. Yeah, yeah, early twentieth century. Your odds of

387
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Speaker 3: surviving or declining rapidly.

388
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Young Max. Saint Max was actually named Raymond. He

389
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Speaker 2: takes Maximilian later. I am bad at tracking multiple names,

390
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Speaker 2: so I'm going to call him Max throughout.

391
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Speaker 3: And that's what he would have wanted.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, although actually later he still calls himself Raymond to

393
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Speaker 2: his mom.

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Speaker 3: I guess that's true. I mean, does your name in religion?

395
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Speaker 3: Is it retroactive?

396
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:23,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I don't think it's like a

397
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Speaker 2: dead name thing.

398
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Speaker 4: You know.

399
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Speaker 2: His last letter that he ever writes he signs Colby

400
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Speaker 2: Raymond as to his mom. But anyway, he's a been

401
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,200
Speaker 2: a wild kid. According to the sources, he likes doing pranks,

402
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,639
Speaker 2: like he has this wild prank where he has decided that,

403
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,520
Speaker 2: like Saint Francis, he wants pets and he wants to

404
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,000
Speaker 2: hang out with birds, but he doesn't want a caged bird. No,

405
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,639
Speaker 2: so he starts taking This is actually really cute. He

406
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,880
Speaker 2: starts taking eggs from the pantry and then sneaking over

407
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,960
Speaker 2: to his neighbor's henhouse and slipping the eggs under the

408
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 2: hens in the henhouse so that they'll hatch and he

409
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:07,320
Speaker 2: can have chickens. But instead he gets caught. Obviously, his

410
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 2: mother does what any reasonable mother would do and beasts

411
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Speaker 2: the shit out of him.

412
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Speaker 3: That's what I expect it.

413
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, this is of course presented as a good

414
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,199
Speaker 2: thing in the primary hagiography I read, and then he

415
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Speaker 2: went to go pray in front of a Mary statue

416
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,160
Speaker 2: to beg for forgiveness for upsetting his mom. And then

417
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Speaker 2: I actually think this guy's life is actually really metal.

418
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Speaker 2: He had a vision of Mary. He's like either nine

419
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 2: or twelve, depending on your source.

420
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Speaker 3: I don't know that Mary is appearing to people over eggs.

421
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,640
Speaker 2: I mean Mary is like, he is obsessed with Mary.

422
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 2: That's his entire thing. He doesn't give a shit about

423
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,679
Speaker 2: Jesus or God. I mean he does, but specifically he

424
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,359
Speaker 2: is a Marianist, which is way more interesting to me anyway,

425
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,480
Speaker 2: because it's the most pagan part of Catholicism that they're like, oh, yeah,

426
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 2: the Mother of God, that's you know whatever. Anyway, So

427
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 2: Mary appears in front of him, holding two crowns out

428
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 2: to him, and one is white and one is red.

429
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,439
Speaker 2: The white one is for purity, the red one is

430
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,439
Speaker 2: for martyrdom, and she says, which one of these do

431
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:13,880
Speaker 2: you want?

432
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,400
Speaker 3: Unfair question to ask a nine year old.

433
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Speaker 2: Well, the nine year old says, I'll take both.

434
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:20,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

435
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 3: I just don't know that at nine you have the like,

436
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 3: have you reached the age of reason? Can you consent?

437
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 3: To martyrdom at nine.

438
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,199
Speaker 2: You know, when you know something about yourself, you know

439
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 2: something about yourself. Okay, you know where you're headed.

440
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:40,439
Speaker 3: If God's mom asks you, you gotta be ready to answer. Yeah.

441
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:41,920
Speaker 2: And he's like, no, I want both of them.

442
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 3: But also, what does a nine year old know about

443
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 3: purity puberty yet?

444
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 2: Brother, I know, unless he's twelve, well even then. But

445
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 2: after this he becomes so obedient that his mom is

446
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 2: like worried that he's sick because he was always kind

447
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 2: of rambunctious. But instead she's like, are you sick, And

448
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 2: was like, no, I saw Mary, and she's like, oh, chill,

449
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:03,439
Speaker 2: I believe you.

450
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 3: You're a good kid.

451
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,360
Speaker 2: He was homeschooled. Only his older brother got any formal schooling.

452
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 2: Family's very poor, but young Max learned Latin from a

453
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 2: local priest, and then him knowing Latin impressed the local

454
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 2: businessman who tutored him in math and science for free,

455
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,200
Speaker 2: and then at thirteen he went off to seminary school

456
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 2: with his older brother. There was a problem though, the

457
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 2: seminary school was in Poland, and he lived in Poland.

458
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 2: The problem is that Poland didn't exist right. I forgot

459
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 2: Poland had been divided by those most random and terrible things,

460
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 2: national borders. I'm really subtle with my politics on the show.

461
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 2: The seminary school was in Austria technically, and he was

462
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 2: in Russia. And these kids did not have passports, so

463
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: they became undocumented migrants.

464
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 3: Oh damn.

465
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 2: A farmer smuggled them in a hay stack on a

466
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 2: cart and so him and his brother were smuggled into

467
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,439
Speaker 2: Austrian Poland so they could go to school. And in

468
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,199
Speaker 2: case the Paris that I'm drawing is too subtle, I

469
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 2: will point out that the majority of undocumented migrants in

470
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 2: the US are actually indigenous to North America. Unlike the

471
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 2: government of the United States, which drew a national border

472
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 2: where none haaded previously existed.

473
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 3: Right the border moved, their families did not.

474
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he's off to school. It's undocumented migrant kid,

475
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 2: and he's a weird kid at school, he does well

476
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 2: in class. He's kind of a math genius. And he

477
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 2: laid around in the garden drawing pictures of imaginary spacecraft.

478
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 3: Okay, Max go off.

479
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 2: And he's developing ideas of rocketry, and he starts telling

480
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 2: everyone that humanity will eventually reach the moon.

481
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 3: With rockets and it is what like nineteen oh five, Yeah,

482
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 3: somewhere between nineteen tenish. Yeah, dang, okay, yeah, which is

483
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 3: he's not the first person to say this, but he's

484
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 3: one of the first people to say this. We actually

485
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 3: did an episode a very long time ago about someone

486
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 3: who worked with the Russian Nihilists who invented multi stage

487
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 3: rocketry while he was in jail for building bombs to

488
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 3: kill the czar. But his invention of multi stage rocketry

489
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 3: wasn't the one that's stuck. I mean, propulsion is propulsion

490
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 3: if he could build a bomb, right.

491
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 2: No, exactly And no, this guy, I mean that particular

492
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 2: guy was like a genius chemist, science man.

493
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 3: He just was like, also, I hate the czar. You

494
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 3: know what was it that Klashnikov said that he would

495
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:24,199
Speaker 3: have preferred to make farm equipment. You have to do

496
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:24,959
Speaker 3: what you have to do.

497
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. This kid. Max has two dreams are to

498
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 2: either join the church, which in the end he does,

499
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 2: or to go join the rebels to fight for Polish independence.

500
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 3: Okay, you can do both. I've heard of South America.

501
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 2: He's big into Polish patriotism. He takes his new name Max,

502
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 2: but he takes his new name Maximilian, after Maximilian of Tibessa.

503
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 2: There's a third century North African saint who was killed

504
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 2: for refusing to join the Roman military.

505
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 3: Okay, so he's kind of settled on a path here.

506
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think that has more to do with

507
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,360
Speaker 2: like not liking like the Czar's military, you.

508
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 3: Know exactly, That's what I'm saying, Like he's sort of

509
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 3: settled on this path against empire. Yeah, he just doesn't

510
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 3: know yet which one.

511
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally Later he takes the middle name Maria because

512
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 2: he is so much more into Mary than he isn't

513
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 2: anything else in Catholicism. Eventually, his parents moved to Austria too,

514
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 2: to be closer to the school, but also because they

515
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 2: both really just wanted to be in religious orders and

516
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 2: not married. So they split up and go to separate

517
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 2: religious orders, and his mom gets to I think it

518
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 2: doesn't become a nun. I think she's a lay worker

519
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 2: at a convent. In nineteen twelve, he sent to Rome

520
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 2: to study. He's just basically like real smart, and they're like,

521
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 2: all right, you're one of the smart kids. You get

522
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 2: to go to the higher up smart land. While he

523
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 2: was there, he was playing soccer, probably called it football.

524
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 2: And he started coughing up blood. Oh shit, because he

525
00:26:58,160 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: had friend.

526
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 3: Of the pod to berculose he had tuberculosis.

527
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 2: He's going to have this the rest of his life.

528
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 3: A lot of Saints hit tuberculosis.

529
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 2: Honestly, like being kind of like sickly and throwing up

530
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 2: blood seems very in line to God. Yeah. I would

531
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 2: have more visions. They wouldn't be good ones.

532
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 3: But we just watched the Mother Cabrini movie, which is

533
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 3: made by those weirdos that made that QAnon child trafficking movie.

534
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 3: But the Mother Cabrini movie is actually pretty good. Wait,

535
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 3: I don't know anything about this. Oh Franciscabrini, say frances Scaberni,

536
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 3: she had tuberculosis. Oh okay, one of the first American Saints. Okay, okay.

537
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 2: No. I'm a total raised Catholic. Very early on with

538
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: like do you want to go to church? And I

539
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 2: was like I do not, and they're like, great.

540
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 3: I guess you're not from like the Northeast, right, I

541
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 3: think it's a Northeastern thing. M you pray to Mother

542
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 3: Cabrini for a parking spot?

543
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 2: Oh okay, that makes sense.

544
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 3: Mother Cabrini mother Cabrini, find me a spot for my

545
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 3: little Machini that I think it's very New York.

546
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 2: I love this for Catholicism. I love the idea that

547
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 2: you're like, no, don't ask God for stuff.

548
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 3: He's busy.

549
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 2: You got to go through a series of intermediate yes, Francis.

550
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

551
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 2: In nineteen fourteen, his dad leaves the monastery to join

552
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 2: the Polish legions fighting for independence, but he doesn't survive

553
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 2: long enough to see independence. He is caught and hanged

554
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 2: by the Russians at forty three years old, and just

555
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 2: to side quest, Polish independence really quick. During the middle

556
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 2: of World War One, Polish soldiers drove out all three

557
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 2: occupying armies and created a republic called Poland.

558
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: And.

559
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 2: The initial government was a coalition of three parties, Socialists,

560
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 2: social Democrats, and Conservatives. It was messy from the start,

561
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 2: and democratic rule did not last long. The Red Army

562
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 2: invaded and tried to conquer Poland in nineteen nineteen, when

563
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 2: Poland was even more democratic. It's going to get less

564
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 2: democratics soon the Bolsheviks were driven back, but this did

565
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: not exactly make Bolsheviks style communism more popular in Poland.

566
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 2: Right like it was socialists who did a lot of

567
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 2: the fighting and dying to make Poland, but they weren't Bolsheviks.

568
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 2: So I feel like this is always an important thing

569
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 2: to understand with anti communism. I think most of the

570
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 2: anti communists of this err are genuinely anti communist and

571
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 2: anti the left, but there's a certain amount of it

572
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: that's just like, no, we just had a war with

573
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: those people who'd.

574
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 3: These particular guys keep coming over.

575
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 2: And invading us and trying to force us into an

576
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 2: authoritarian system while we're republic.

577
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, like maybe we could do socialism, but just like

578
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 3: these guys keep invading.

579
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally. Unfortunately they ended up with authoritarian rule anyway.

580
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 2: In nineteen twenty six, a guy did a coup and

581
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: had an authoritarian centrist government. Because there was two major

582
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 2: factions of people who wanted authoritarian government in Poland. Will

583
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: three of you count the Bolsheviks. The one that won

584
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 2: the coup was the faction that believed at least somewhat

585
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 2: in having a multicultural society. So basically everyone's like, ah,

586
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 2: I think we should have a strong man in charge.

587
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 2: And one side is like and poll for the polls right,

588
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 2: and the other side's like, no, what are you talking about.

589
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: We want a nice, multi ethnic authoritarian society. So that's

590
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 2: what they got. Max's older brother also went and fought

591
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 2: for the War for Independence, and he was wounded, but

592
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 2: he survived. He got married, had a kid, and then

593
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: died in a German concentration camp in nineteen forty three. Hey,

594
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 2: the forties were rough, damn Max. In nineteen fifteen, he

595
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: graduates with a doctorate in philosophy, twenty one years old.

596
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 3: I mean he kind of locked in at nine, right, Yeah.

597
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 2: So yeah, for him, he was like, look, I am

598
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 2: not distracted by fucking All I want to do is

599
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 2: die for the cause. Except I say that he's actually

600
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 2: not death obsessed. We're going to talk about that later.

601
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: He actually like he had a lot of chances to die.

602
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 3: He accepted the inevitability of death, but he's not like

603
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 3: he's not ready to die, right, Like.

604
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 2: Your willingness to stay alive is a big part of

605
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 2: surviving certain illnesses, you.

606
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 3: Know, right, do you have to tell tuberculousis whose boss? Yeah?

607
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 2: And it obviously doesn't always work. It's not like, oh yeah,

608
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 2: this is this episode's TV as fuck, But yeah, he

609
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 2: has plenty of chances to die, where he's like, no,

610
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 2: I'm not dying, Max. He's a very conservative Catholic. He

611
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: is worried about industrialization. He's worried about communism, maybe just

612
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 2: as Bolshevism. I don't know, because the only time I've

613
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: personally found a quote from him, it's about Bolshevism. But

614
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 2: I think he's anti communist in a genuine way. He's

615
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 2: worried about mass media, but I can't find more information

616
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 2: than he's worried about mass mediacause he's also really into

617
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 2: mass media.

618
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 3: Like what does that mean?

619
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 2: I think it's like the like corruption of the youth

620
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 2: through like TV, well not TV, but like radio or whatever,

621
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 2: you know. But he's also like really into radio. So

622
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 2: he's worried about atheism all this stuff. Of course, Yeah,

623
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 2: I wish I knew more about his actual political beliefs.

624
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 2: He was not subtle about what he believed. Even though

625
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 2: this guy wrote hundreds of articles and thousands of letters,

626
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: He's almost entirely remembered not for what he believed or said,

627
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 2: but what he did and what did he did.

628
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 3: We'll get to it.

629
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 2: Oh, His like acts of heroism that are genuine acts

630
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 2: of heroism. So basically everyone Like I've read like articles

631
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 2: from like progressives who are like this guy rules and

632
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 2: other it's just no one's looking at what this man wrote.

633
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 2: And I had a hard time doing it because most

634
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 2: of it isn't available in English. I actually read some

635
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 2: of it machine translated, just to fucking try and get

636
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 2: a sense of it. He is a dedicated propagandist for

637
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: the Catholic Church, and a very traditional version of the

638
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 2: Catholic Church, not a like pro business side, actually a

639
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: very like kind of I think, a sort of like

640
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 2: social justice side. But he's also the patron saying of

641
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 2: the pro life movement, you know.

642
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 3: But like, is that his fault?

643
00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, honestly. And the only time I've seen

644
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 2: people quoted about it's anti death penalty.

645
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 3: But whatever, Yeah, I mean, I guess he's very pro

646
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 3: life in the sense that he wishes he did not

647
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 3: die in a death camp.

648
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't want anyone else to do it. I

649
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 2: know some of what his conservativism is. He is genuinely conservative.

650
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 2: I just don't think he's like right wing, but I

651
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: don't know. Some people do, and it's annoying because I

652
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 2: sure tried to find it.

653
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 3: I guess especially with modern set. I mean, I guess

654
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 3: probably all saints, but especially in modernity because you can

655
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 3: actually see the manipulation going on here. It is it

656
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 3: is a tool of propaganda. It's a messaging tools.

657
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 2: You know.

658
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 3: John Paul the Second canonized a bunch of anti communist

659
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 3: Polish clergy for a very particular political reason in the eighties, right,

660
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 3: this was the Cold War. We're canonizing these anti communist

661
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 3: saints because it is the Cold War. Yeah, and so

662
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 3: what is available about their lives and what they believed,

663
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 3: I think is colored by that, Yeah, totally, totally.

664
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: But I will tell you something that he did, the

665
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 2: big thing that he's almost remembered for instead of the

666
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: thing that he's remembered for actually at the end of

667
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 2: his life. In nineteen seventeen, he started a movement within

668
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 2: Catholicism called the Militia Immaculateia the Knights of the Immaculate.

669
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 3: Okay, what are we up to? Boys?

670
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 2: Immaculate in this case means mary.

671
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 3: Sure, so, like what is the militia up to?

672
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 2: Well? He forms this group and the goal is to

673
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 2: convert to quote its original statutes, sinners, heretics, schismatics, Jews,

674
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,240
Speaker 2: and especially Freemasons to Catholicism.

675
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 3: Okay, I feel like, you know, going after the schismatics.

676
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,879
Speaker 3: That's in house business, right, That's like you guys take

677
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 3: care of your own that's in house beef. Yeah. I

678
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 3: don't know about the rest of that, the heretics and

679
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 3: the schismatics. Yeah, go off, brother.

680
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 2: I'm going to continue to hold by my not a

681
00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 2: person I.

682
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:03,760
Speaker 3: Agree with, right, I'm just saying the Immaculate Militia or whatever,

683
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 3: like two Knights of the Immaculate, go get your schismatics, yea,

684
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 3: Beth the Jews alone.

685
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the Jews would agree, I imagine. So

686
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: now he ends it with especially Freemasons. Okay, that's not

687
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 2: my business either. I don't care if they bother with

688
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 2: the Freemasons. He is on some conspiracy shit. He has

689
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 2: got cons them bad.

690
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 3: Oh, and this is like prime time for anti Freemason

691
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 3: conspiracies too. Mm hmmm.

692
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 2: As we've covered in our episode about the Freemasons and

693
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 2: the Illuminati, the Freemasons fake, well, no, the Aluminati was real. Sure,

694
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 2: they just were a small group of people in Bavaria

695
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 2: for a brief period of time, and they were tied

696
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 2: into Freemasonry and it's fine.

697
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 3: They're fine. You don't need to go get them. Yeah.

698
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 2: The Freemasons were advocates of science and the Enlightenment and

699
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: free thinking, and so they butted heads with the Church

700
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 2: often enough. A ton of them form the earliest socialists

701
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 2: and anarchist groups in Europe, Like the First International's first

702
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,399
Speaker 2: meeting was held at a Freemason lodge primarily run by

703
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: French anarchists who were Prodonnists. That's the kind of information

704
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 2: that makes me friends at parties. But all that shit

705
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 2: was eighty years before Max gets all worked up about them.

706
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 2: He viewsed the Freemasons as doing the devil's work on earth,

707
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 2: and he wrote about it. Quote, the Freemasons of Rome

708
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 2: began to demonstrate openly and belligerently against the Church. They

709
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 2: placed the black standard of the Giordiano Brunisti under the

710
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 2: windows of the Vatican. On this standard, the archangel Saint

711
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 2: Michael was depicted lying under the feet of a triumphant Lucifer.

712
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 2: At the same time, countless pamphlets were distributed to the

713
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 2: people in which the Holy Father was attacked shamefully. Right then,

714
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 2: I conceived the idea of organizing an active society to

715
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 2: count wrecked Freemasonry and the other slaves of Lucifer.

716
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 3: Oh, I hate when the Freemasons fly their big devil flag.

717
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: Ooh, I know, I'm so mad about and I want

718
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 2: a black flag of a triumphant Lucifer standing atop Saint Michael.

719
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 2: I'm not even a Satanist or anything, but that sounds sick.

720
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 3: Like how are we depicting Lucifer exactly? Like which version?

721
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 3: What are we going for? Like big naked guy with horns,

722
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 3: like little goat man? Like what are we looking at here?

723
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 2: Specifically my best bet because I spent a while down

724
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 2: this rabbit hole I looking for this flag. Yeah, I

725
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 2: did not find it, but most depictions of Lucifer around

726
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 2: that time, because I don't think this happened. It's like

727
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 2: two wing dudes. I actually think it did happen.

728
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, let's hear it.

729
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 2: I'm willing to bet it is two wing dudes with spears.

730
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 2: And because there's like common depictions of Saint Michael a

731
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,879
Speaker 2: top Lucifer and they're two like jacked wing dudes.

732
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 3: Yes, okay, so it's just an inversion.

733
00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: Of probably a very common image. Yeah, and like genuinely

734
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 2: like a bunch of Freemasons, occultists, and like Enlightenment people

735
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 2: actually did identify with Lucifer. Anarchists were really into Lucifer

736
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 2: in the nineteenth century of like Lucifer the light Bringer

737
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 2: and like, you know this Enlightenment idea. Right, the only

738
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 2: source I can find about this happening is fucking Saint Max.

739
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 3: So if there were mass demonstrations in Rome in this

740
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 3: is what like nineteen fifteen, nineteen twenty newspapers exist. I

741
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 3: know there would be contemporary accounts of this.

742
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 2: And I'm limited by like having one week and this

743
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 2: is a rabbit hole, of course, and what is available

744
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 2: in English. I actually asked some of my anarchist historian

745
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 2: friends and I asked, like a bunch of different places

746
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 2: like that I could try and normally find out more

747
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 2: about this what I believe was happening. Okay, So hundreds

748
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,720
Speaker 2: of years ago, there's a guy named Jordiano Bruno who

749
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 2: may or may not be a future subject of the show.

750
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 3: I actually get the feeling he kind of.

751
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 2: Was mid He's a Catholic guy who got burned at

752
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 2: the stage, and he was seen as a martyr for

753
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 2: science because he posted wild ideas like he positive wild

754
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 2: ideas like stars are actually other suns and they have

755
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 2: their own planets close. Yeah, yeah, no, it was right

756
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 2: about that. But probably the reason they set him on

757
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 2: fire actually more to do with he was like I

758
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,399
Speaker 2: don't agree with the trinity, and that's like the shit

759
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 2: that the true.

760
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 3: I mean, that's like what they did to Copernacus, right,

761
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 3: Like it wasn't so much about the suns, like you

762
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 3: did some other heresies. Yeah, you did some other heresies

763
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 3: and you had a very bad vibe. Yeah, we just

764
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 3: don't like you, Like Copernicus was just like not chill

765
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 3: to be around.

766
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so the BRUNISTI the Brunoists, I believe there

767
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 2: are folks who held yearly demonstrations in Rome for a while,

768
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 2: and this was probably involved a lot of freemasons. I

769
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 2: would guess that these were largely anarchistic, based on the

770
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 2: black flag, because that was already an anarchist symbol by

771
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 2: this point. So I think basically there was like even

772
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,720
Speaker 2: been to like a demonstration that like a hundred people

773
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 2: throw where they make some flyers demanding something kind of

774
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 2: ridiculous and make a cool flag and go march and

775
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 2: then like nothing comes of it.

776
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 3: It's this is not indicative of any larger movement. It's

777
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,959
Speaker 3: just like an idea somebody had, Yeah.

778
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 2: And they got a couple of people fired up about it.

779
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 2: It might have been a regular march that one person

780
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 2: made a banner for. Yeah. No, this man started an

781
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 2: order of Knights that is still around today because.

782
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 3: Because he saw like one guy's weird idea. Yeah, you know,

783
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 3: I just feel like we need better communication. I know

784
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 3: he was upset about mass media, but maybe mass media

785
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 3: could have saved him. I think he may be right.

786
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 2: As for the Jews needing to be converted part of it.

787
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 2: He bought into common anti Semitic conspiracies at the time,

788
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 2: most notably the hoax the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

789
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,800
Speaker 2: I read a lot of articles about Max's anti semitism

790
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 2: yay and nay. Basically it was on par for the

791
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 2: average Catholic in Poland, but also.

792
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,760
Speaker 3: So like, not good, not excusable, but the average.

793
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like he is an anti semi but not exceptional.

794
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 2: That's not a thing. Anti Freemasonry, that's his thing. He

795
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 2: believes the Protocols were an actual document and that the

796
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 2: Zionists didn't just want to colonize Palestine, but conquer the

797
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 2: entire world. He actually very often specifically kept his accusations

798
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: aimed at Zionists and not Jews more broadly, and he

799
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 2: often wrote kind of a like I'm not talking about

800
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 2: Jews at large, I'm talking specifically about Zionists. But he

801
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 2: had this version of Zionists that were like, We're going

802
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 2: to take over the whole world. It's so messy, it

803
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 2: is so terribly messy. Like at one point I read

804
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 2: this thing that he wrote, but it was a machine

805
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 2: translated because, like I said, had hard time finding his

806
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 2: work in English. And it was him on the train

807
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 2: and he's like, excuse me, are you Israelites And people

808
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 2: are like yeah, and he's like, but what kind And

809
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,919
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, we're Zionists. And he's like, interesting, tell

810
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 2: me what you believe. I want to hear it from

811
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 2: your own mouth, because surely Palestine isn't large enough for you.

812
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 2: And they're like, no, it is, that's what we want.

813
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 2: And he's like ah, and they're like explaining that Zionism

814
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 2: was the progressive side of the movement versus the Orthodox

815
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 2: and it's like it just gets into nightmarishly messy shit

816
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 2: and it's.

817
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 3: Like in nineteen twenty or whatever. That's not really your.

818
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 2: Business, dog, No, but you know, anyway, the first issue

819
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 2: of the newspaper he's going to start, called the Night

820
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 2: of the Immaculate.

821
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 3: We love a guy with his own newspaper.

822
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. Unfortunately, he's going to have an entire town

823
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 2: dedicated to publishing this newspaper, although that town is then

824
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 2: going to house thousands of Jews to protect them during

825
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:36,280
Speaker 2: the Holocaust.

826
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:38,320
Speaker 3: A complicated figure.

827
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 2: No, I love how messy this man is, but do

828
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 2: you know it also is fantastically messy my brain.

829
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 3: Our relationship with the products and services that sponsor this show.

830
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 2: And our brains, and here is some of some of that,

831
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 2: and we're back. So okay. His very first newspaper, first

832
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 2: edition of the Night of the Immaculate, he calls the

833
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 2: Freemasons quote an organized clique of fanatical Jews who want

834
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 2: to destroy the church. Oh.

835
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 3: I'm not loving that language.

836
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 2: To be honest again, this is an anti semit I.

837
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 3: Feel so sounds like one of my guys.

838
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 2: No, that's part of why I want to do on

839
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 2: this for this because.

840
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 3: I've read a lot of newspapers that sound exactly like this,

841
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 3: and I've translated.

842
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 2: Some of them from Polish. Oh interesting, Okay, Yeah, he

843
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 2: didn't write a ton about Jews or Zionists. This was

844
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 2: not an obsession of his. People have run the numbers

845
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: of the like thousands of pieces of writing we have

846
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:39,720
Speaker 2: by him. I think thirty two or thirty six reference

847
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 2: Jews at all, pretty decent ratio for the time period. Again,

848
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 2: it's not good. It's not good on par with a

849
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 2: lot of the people who founded leftism. Also, I mean,

850
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 2: some of the people have founded Leftism were wildly anti Semitic.

851
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 2: Most of them were like this level where they don't

852
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 2: even think about it, they're just instinctively anti Semitic. Right.

853
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 2: He also kept saying things like, and to be clear,

854
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 2: they're good Jewish people, but the ones who we are

855
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: trying to rule the world and destroy the church are bad.

856
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 2: So he forms the New Nights of the Immaculate with

857
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 2: his buds, but illness almost takes them out. Two of

858
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 2: the six founders died of the Spanish flu in nineteen nineteen.

859
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: Oh.

860
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 3: That was a rough time.

861
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 2: It genuinely was Jesus Christ. I like, think about the

862
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 2: rough times that we're going into and are in, and

863
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, I read a lot about like nineteen

864
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 2: ten to nineteen fifty, and I'm like.

865
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 3: Yep, it's nineteen nineteen maybe.

866
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, party like a nineteen nineteen Maxis. Tuberculosis got

867
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 2: worse and he spends time in the hospital. Meanwhile, he

868
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 2: gets his second doctorate in theology and heads back to Poland.

869
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 2: He wanted to be a missionary, but the church is like,

870
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 2: now you got to teach, and we're kind of in

871
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:46,439
Speaker 2: charge of you, and he's like, okay, you're in charge

872
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: of me.

873
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 3: I'm gonna teach.

874
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 2: But this is really bad for his health. Poland was

875
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 2: out of coal and the monastery was damp and cold.

876
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 2: His tuberculosis got worse. He was short of breath, his

877
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 2: students couldn't hear him, and he was real slow and sickly.

878
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 2: So his students children are such wonderful creatures. They came

879
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 2: up with nicknames for him, like marmalade and molasses.

880
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 3: That's mean, I know. They should have sent him to

881
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 3: a seaside town. That was the cure for tuberculosis back then.

882
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 2: That is literally the next sentence. They send him to

883
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 2: a mountain town to recover in the fresh air.

884
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, got to breathe that crisp crisp air.

885
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 2: I know, I know, and I mean I think it

886
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 2: actually does help with the urculuses.

887
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 3: I mean, doesn't fix it.

888
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 2: But yeah, he spent his time alternating between bed rest

889
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,879
Speaker 2: and then ministering the sick again reading hay giographies. Here

890
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 2: he mostly used trying to convert lapsed Catholics, those dang

891
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 2: communists and atheists. His anti communism isn't like I fucking

892
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 2: hate you, I'm gonna kill you, you communist. He's like, ah,

893
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 2: but God can still save you, you communist, you know.

894
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 2: And he would do it by like just like talking

895
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 2: and listening and being like kind of chill, and so

896
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 2: he actually put complete moral neutral on this statement. He

897
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 2: successfully converted a lot of communists and atheists back to

898
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 2: the church, and he would administer last writes a lot.

899
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 2: He would like run out into storms to reach people

900
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:09,280
Speaker 2: who are dying, despite his own ill health. Again, everything

901
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 2: you read is like this man couldn't stop self sacrificing.

902
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 3: But I think he genuinely couldn't. I mean, he is

903
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 3: a saint.

904
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, He's really into new media like newspapers and radio

905
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 2: and movies. He has to fight to get money for

906
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 2: printing and They're like, we're voluntarily poor, we can't finance

907
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 2: a paper. So he's like begging door to door to

908
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 2: finance The Night, which is a sketchy name for a

909
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 2: newspaper that.

910
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:35,839
Speaker 3: Sounds like the kind of newspaper I'm reading from my job.

911
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 2: You mean the fact that this newspaper, The Night occasionally

912
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:42,240
Speaker 2: cited the protocols of the Elders of Zion.

913
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds like something I would read.

914
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 2: It does, Yeah, it really does.

915
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 3: Yep.

916
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty two, The New York Times put it

917
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 2: quote a distinguished Polish Catholic layman who met Father Colby

918
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 2: said that the Saints shared much of the thinking the

919
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 2: Polish clergy and It's faithful, which included a firm belief

920
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:07,760
Speaker 2: that Jews were dominant in two movements, Communism and Freemasonry,

921
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:11,800
Speaker 2: that the Church considered a threat to Catholicism and Poland.

922
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 2: And so this is like a conservative Catholic paper that's like,

923
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 2: these are the problems Freemasonry and communism, you know.

924
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 3: And again, in nineteen eighty two is the year he

925
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 3: was canonized. So the reason they're saying this in the

926
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 3: newspaper is to allay any fears that this person the

927
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 3: Pope has said, as a saint might have had a problem.

928
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 4: Well.

929
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 2: Interestingly, it was newsworthy in nineteen eighty two that an

930
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,320
Speaker 2: anti semit was canonized, and that he was canonized partly

931
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 2: for helping Jews. That was the news story, And there

932
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 2: was a lot of hand ringing back and forth in

933
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 2: the newspapers in nineteen eighty two about this. So I

934
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 2: have compare. The New York Times says this. The Washington

935
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 2: Post in nineteen eighty two said that in nineteen thirty

936
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 2: four he quote spoke out against the removal of Jews

937
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: from the economic life of Poland. Now that sounds good, right,

938
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 2: it does.

939
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:02,800
Speaker 3: Where's the butt?

940
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 2: The New York Times has more context for that same

941
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 2: thing that he did quote. In nineteen thirty four, his

942
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 2: colleagues in Poland sent him a sample issue of the newspaper.

943
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 2: Father Colby wrote back to them about an article that

944
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 2: demanded the elimination of Jews from Polish economic life. The

945
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 2: letter said, and now there's a quote embedded within a quote.

946
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 2: I'm very good at my job. It would be better

947
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 2: not to speak so much about the necessity of a

948
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 2: systematic removal of Jews, but rather to contribute to the

949
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 2: multiplication of Polish businesses, which would lead more speedily to

950
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 2: the goal. I'm still quoting New York Times. The next year,

951
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 2: he wrote to the editors quote, I would pay great

952
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 2: attention not to stimulate hatred against Jews or to deepen

953
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 2: it among readers who are already hostile to them. Our

954
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 2: highest goal must always be the conversion and sanctification of souls.

955
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 3: So he's saying, you shouldn't be too mean to them,

956
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 3: but we should convert them. Yes, So either way, we're

957
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:05,919
Speaker 3: talking about the removal of Jews from society, either by

958
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,800
Speaker 3: pushing them out of society or making them not Jewish.

959
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 2: Any he wants to do it by having them no

960
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:11,280
Speaker 2: longer be Jewish.

961
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 3: Well, he's saying there should be fewer Jews here, we're

962
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 3: just talking about different methods.

963
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 2: And not the people, but the culture and religion. It

964
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,280
Speaker 2: is anti Semitism, but the end result is still fewer Jews.

965
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,359
Speaker 2: I do think that there's an important distinction between them

966
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 2: be and fewer Jews versus the people are still there

967
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 2: in his version.

968
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:31,919
Speaker 3: But they are no longer Jews. Right?

969
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 4: Not?

970
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 2: Good? Not? I'm really not trying to defend this man

971
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 2: about it, Like I.

972
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 3: Guess, like the kind of guy I read about just

973
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 3: wants to kill them, right, yeah, so it is better,

974
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 3: I guess.

975
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 2: I think that is the difference here that leads to

976
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 2: where he sides in the war.

977
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 3: Because when someone shows up to kill them, he's like, hey,

978
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 3: I didn't want these people here either, but you can't

979
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 3: kill them.

980
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,399
Speaker 2: Well, it's not even that he doesn't want those people here.

981
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:58,839
Speaker 2: He doesn't want their culture here.

982
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:03,359
Speaker 3: Also bad, but he doesn't want anybody to hurt them, right.

983
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 4: Good.

984
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 3: He believes in the sanctity of life. Complicated man, absolutely,

985
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 3: But I guess that's the whole point here, right. It's

986
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 3: like there are people in the streets who voted for

987
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 3: what's being done to their neighbors, but they don't want

988
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 3: to see it done, right.

989
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:18,320
Speaker 4: You know.

990
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 3: In my line of work, I would argue that this

991
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 3: sort of spectrum of anti Semitism, this sort of desire

992
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 3: to remove Jewish culture, the appearance of Jewish people, the

993
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 3: religion of the Jewish people, the desire to remove that

994
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 3: from society is on the same spectrum as wanting to

995
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 3: kill them to eliminate that element of society. This is

996
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 3: the same spectrum. So you know, people who voted for

997
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 3: what's being done in Minnesota. But they don't actually want

998
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 3: to see those people hurt. At the end of the day,

999
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 3: when someone comes to hurt and kill their neighbor, right,

1000
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,359
Speaker 3: even though they they were on that spectrum that caused this,

1001
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 3: they'll intervene. Yeah, I get it, I get where we're going.

1002
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Like again, it's probably in the subheading of

1003
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 2: this show that he was a saying like that is

1004
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 2: like complicated guy who did cool stuff right exactly, And

1005
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 2: that's what's interesting to me about him. Him is like

1006
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 2: a straight up saint or even a straight redemption story.

1007
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,839
Speaker 2: I'm actually less interested in because there's plenty of people

1008
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 2: who did good shit during all of this period.

1009
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 3: Because a lot of people will not be redeemed right

1010
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 3: that like this isn't a redemption arc. It it's proof

1011
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,359
Speaker 3: that even flawed people can do the right thing.

1012
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so he genuinely believes all people are created

1013
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 2: equal in the likeness of God, but that everyone needs

1014
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 2: to become Catholic because it's the only way for their

1015
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:39,720
Speaker 2: souls to enter Heaven, which is funny because that's actually

1016
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 2: not modern Catholic doctrine.

1017
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,280
Speaker 3: But you know, well, a lot of the church's teachings

1018
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 3: about the Jews changed a few years after this man died.

1019
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and like, and it's also telling that Washington

1020
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 2: Post was like, oh, he said that, don't don't try

1021
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 2: and cut them out of the economic life, where The

1022
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 2: New York Times gives the full quote where he's like, yeah, no, no, no, no,

1023
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 2: don't attack them, promote us instead, So they just kind

1024
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 2: of quietly go away.

1025
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 3: A dishonest truncation of the quote.

1026
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. When local printers go on strike and he

1027
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 2: can't print the night, he doesn't hire scab labor, but

1028
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 2: instead he gets their own press and starts printing themselves.

1029
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 2: I don't know how that fits into whether or not

1030
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 2: that's scabbing, just genuinely, don't.

1031
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 3: I guess owning the means of your own production isn't

1032
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 3: the same as hiring scabs, But you are circumventing a strike, right,

1033
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1034
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 2: But he always kind of wanted his own shit, you know.

1035
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,800
Speaker 2: And they get an old hand cranked press nicknamed Granny,

1036
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, Granny, and a line of type machine to

1037
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 2: set the type themselves. Church superiors were skeptical about all

1038
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 2: of this, and they're regularly so they have to finance

1039
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 2: it with donations from readers instead of church funds, and

1040
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:55,240
Speaker 2: always on and off, Max is off to go rest

1041
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 2: up and not die of tuberculosis.

1042
00:52:57,520 --> 00:52:58,479
Speaker 3: Got to go take the cure.

1043
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 2: A print gave them the land they set up. Eventually

1044
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 2: they set up their own like buildings and monastery and

1045
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 2: all this shit, and they call it the city of Mary.

1046
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 2: That is what it translates to. And I decided that

1047
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,359
Speaker 2: it would be less offensive to the Polish to use

1048
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 2: the translation of the name instead of because I'm gonna

1049
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 2: have to say this name a lot, and I don't

1050
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 2: want to get it wrong every single time.

1051
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 3: It's not one of those languages where like my mouth

1052
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 3: can't make those.

1053
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 2: Sounds well, and it's like and I look up a

1054
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 2: lot of like pronunciations when I can, But honestly, when

1055
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 2: you get into like Eastern European languages that things that

1056
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 2: only were present and are like weird religious things from

1057
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,240
Speaker 2: the nineteen forties, it's harder to find pronunciations.

1058
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 4: Right.

1059
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:38,799
Speaker 3: There's not gonna be a YouTube video where they're talking

1060
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 3: about this, not to my knowledge.

1061
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I looked up a lot of names, and then

1062
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:44,879
Speaker 2: some of the names I was like city of Marry

1063
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,799
Speaker 2: it is. In nineteen twenty seven, they build the city

1064
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 2: of Mary as a chapel, a monastery, and a printing

1065
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 2: press building. It's hard work. They start off sleeping on

1066
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 2: wood shavings with cardboard pulled over them to keep the

1067
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 2: snow off of them. To quote one of the brothers,

1068
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:05,359
Speaker 2: brother Severin Daggas quote, we slept on the floor. It

1069
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 2: wasn't bare ground, but wood planks. I didn't mind that.

1070
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 2: We were young, most of us, and strong. We saw

1071
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 2: how Father Colby sacrificed and never complained, so how could we?

1072
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 2: After all, he was older and sick, and he was

1073
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 2: eating everything we ate and doing everything we did and

1074
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 2: sharing our lot completely. He earned the nickname God's Miser

1075
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 2: because he was so dead set on doing everything the

1076
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 2: least luxurious way possible.

1077
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 3: So are these other guys not also Franciscans? Yeah, they're

1078
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 3: friars and shit, but like, yeah, this is God's Miser.

1079
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:38,760
Speaker 3: I'm so you're a Franciscan, I know. Did you expect

1080
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 3: walking into this?

1081
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1082
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:40,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

1083
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 1: So.

1084
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 2: Catholic communities in China and Japan reach out and are like, hey,

1085
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 2: could you help us set up shit here too? So

1086
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 2: Max and his friends went first to China and then Japan,

1087
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:52,320
Speaker 2: traveling by freighter aka not in luxury. In Japan. Outside

1088
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 2: of Nagasaki, they set up another city of Mary and

1089
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 2: started printing The Night in Japanese. And it's important that

1090
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 2: you know that. Oh God, I hate talking this much

1091
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 2: on my sources. I read a book that was like, well,

1092
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:06,839
Speaker 2: it was divine providence that they built on the side

1093
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 2: of the mountain around Nagasaki, that they did because they

1094
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 2: survived the bombing. And I'm like, maybe it's bad that

1095
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 2: we bought anyway.

1096
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 3: Whatever, Look, you have to read the sources that exist.

1097
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 3: But oftentimes the source, yeah, it's no good. I mean,

1098
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 3: I read a lot of stormfront posts this week. I

1099
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 3: feel your pain. Yeah. Yeah.

1100
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 2: Supposedly, in nineteen thirty three, The Night in Japanese was

1101
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 2: the largest publication in Japan. I don't believe that.

1102
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 3: I just that can't possibly be true. There's no way

1103
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 3: that this guy's weird. It had a print run a

1104
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,839
Speaker 3: fifty thousand. That can have been the largest newspaper whatever.

1105
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 3: The daily paper in Tokyo was surely.

1106
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 2: Had more subscribers. I suspect it was the largest Catholic

1107
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 2: publication in Japan.

1108
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 3: That I will buy because I bet there weren't a

1109
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 3: lot of those.

1110
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, not so many. Japan famously not a very

1111
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,960
Speaker 2: Catholic country. I mean there are, oh, there are some

1112
00:55:57,120 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 2: communities there, yeah, absolutely, but some go back hundreds of

1113
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 2: but it's not huge. No, no, Anyway, after he leaves

1114
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 2: Japan it doesn't agree with him health wise. He goes

1115
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 2: to India to try and set up something similar. It

1116
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 2: doesn't work. He goes back to Poland because whatever nineteen

1117
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:16,479
Speaker 2: thirty eighty builds a radio station.

1118
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 3: Uh oh, it's getting towards a bad time to be

1119
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 3: in Poland, is it is?

1120
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 2: His life would have been a lot longer if he'd

1121
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 2: stayed in Japan. Stayed in Actually that might not be true.

1122
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 2: He was in Nagasaki and he probably would have run

1123
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:31,360
Speaker 2: towards the people who are suffering.

1124
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 3: I mean, maybe things would have been better for him

1125
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:33,280
Speaker 3: in India.

1126
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 2: That's true of the countries that I would rather be

1127
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:41,240
Speaker 2: in World War Two, between Poland, India, China, and Japan,

1128
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 2: I'm picking India. Yeah, God, something like oh, I can't remember.

1129
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 2: It's like a fifth of Poland dies in World War Two.

1130
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,799
Speaker 3: I mean, it just wasn't a great time to be Polish. No,

1131
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 3: there was a couple hundred years there where it wasn't

1132
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 3: a good time to be Polish.

1133
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:00,800
Speaker 2: No, the Nazis are clearly a pro problem by nineteen

1134
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 2: thirty eight, and they have a daily paper now to

1135
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 2: the Franciscans, and they are really hardline anti Hitler, and

1136
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 2: they basically the Joyce. They're still anti Communist, but I

1137
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 2: think they're starting to see like, oh, this is a problem, right,

1138
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 2: they seem to drop their I think they drop their

1139
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:29,960
Speaker 2: focus away from those dastardly Freemasons to focus on the Nazis,

1140
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 2: who put everything into perspective.

1141
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 3: It's a more immediate threat than the Freemasons.

1142
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 2: By nineteen thirty eight, he has taken Freemasons and Jews

1143
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 2: out of the Knight's mission statement, okay, kind of. He

1144
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 2: writes the purpose of the Knights is contained in these

1145
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 2: words quote to do all you can for the conversions

1146
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 2: of sinners, heretics, schismatics, and so on and so on,

1147
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 2: et cetera.

1148
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1149
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:56,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, a friend put it, happy to have been demoted

1150
00:57:56,920 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 2: to and so on.

1151
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 3: And I think that really sort of covers every you know, heretic, schismatics,

1152
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 3: et cetera. Yeah, whatever you know, and enemies as to

1153
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 3: be determined at a future.

1154
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 2: Date, right, totally. Yeah, but it this is where I was, like,

1155
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 2: I was trying really hard to see whether or not

1156
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 2: his thinking changed between the nineteen tens and the nineteen

1157
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 2: thirties and nineteen forties.

1158
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 3: And I don't know, right, Like, are you less worried

1159
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:24,959
Speaker 3: about the Jews because you have a bigger concern now

1160
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 3: or do you now see that maybe hating the Jews

1161
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 3: was no good?

1162
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 4: Right?

1163
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 2: I don't know, And that frustrates me both. I could

1164
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 2: be completely convinced by like, if I saw sources about

1165
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 2: either of those, they would fit into what I know

1166
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 2: of those, because both.

1167
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 3: Of those seem equally likely to be Yeah, absolutely, and

1168
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 3: I guess. I mean, at the end of the day,

1169
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 3: we don't have that information, but we do know he

1170
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 3: was willing to die to protect them.

1171
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 2: So yes, it doesn't matter. Well, yes, I'll go with that,

1172
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 2: and like he will die to protect people because he

1173
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 2: genuinely is. Like, like I could see this if you

1174
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 2: thought the only way for people to not suffer in

1175
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 2: hell for all eternities for them to be Catholic. You

1176
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 2: have to try to make them Catholic. And this is

1177
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 2: why systems and theologies like that are bad and dangerous rights.

1178
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 3: He had an incorrect belief. But if that is the

1179
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 3: belief that you have, your behavior does make sense.

1180
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 4: Right.

1181
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 3: It's what I've always said about clinic bombers.

1182
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 2: Yeah no, no, no, absolutely, Like what you believe.

1183
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 3: Is wrong and bad and dangerous. But yeah, if you

1184
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 3: believe that abortion is killing babies, then what you're doing

1185
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 3: makes sense because yeah, I thought someone was killing a

1186
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:41,960
Speaker 3: bunch of babies, i'd go crazy too.

1187
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 2: Right, totally. So by the time nineteen thirty nine rolls around,

1188
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 2: Germany has annexed Austria and Czechoslovakia, and Max is like, yeah,

1189
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 2: they're gonna Blit's Creek us next. And they also really

1190
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 2: don't like Catholics, and so they start prepping.

1191
00:59:57,440 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 3: Yeah you're on the list now too, brother.

1192
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. So they start prepping, and I love a prepper.

1193
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 2: They black out the windows to make sure that they

1194
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 2: wouldn't be spotted in an air raid. They set up

1195
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 2: air raid sirens and had air raid drills, and I

1196
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 2: believe the airraid sirens are actually useful to the larger

1197
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 2: community around them, and they're like kind of providing resources

1198
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 2: and protection for the larger kind of town that I

1199
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 2: can't tell if it cropped up around them or it

1200
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 2: was already existent. The things have written about it in

1201
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 2: very confusing ways. And then in August twenty third news

1202
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 2: came down that the USSR in Germany had just signed

1203
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 2: a non aggression packed a friendly packed the famous or

1204
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:38,480
Speaker 2: infamous Molotov Ribbentrop packed.

1205
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 3: And then they didn't go to war.

1206
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, the two great powers agreed to divvy up Eastern

1207
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 2: Europe between them.

1208
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 3: Oh, we're partitioning Poland again.

1209
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 2: Uh huh, they partitioned Poland. Max wrote about it, quote,

1210
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 2: two of the tyrants of our past history, who kept

1211
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:58,280
Speaker 2: our nation partitioned for more than a century, now planned

1212
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 2: to divide our country once again, as your ancestors did.

1213
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 2: We must resist the destruction of our state. As they

1214
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 2: resisted the rule of Prussia and Russia. We must resist

1215
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 2: the rule of godless Bolshevism and the idols of Aryan

1216
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:16,400
Speaker 2: national socialism. He and another priest had a vision over

1217
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:18,600
Speaker 2: the sky. This man's life is very metal, like I

1218
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:22,560
Speaker 2: said to quote the Life of Saint Maximilian Colby by

1219
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 2: William LeMay, one of these hagiographies. Quote, they observed in

1220
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 2: the northern sky a white cross against a deep purple background.

1221
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 2: Almost instantaneously, the sky changed to a flaming red. The

1222
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 2: site lasted for a mere few seconds.

1223
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:42,120
Speaker 3: I mean, it makes a lot more sense that God

1224
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:44,000
Speaker 3: would send you a vision about like I don't know

1225
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:46,560
Speaker 3: how Hitler is coming than he what about how he's

1226
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:47,720
Speaker 3: mad that you stole some eggs.

1227
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 2: That's true, that's a good point. I actually known that

1228
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 2: God was mad about the eggs. I think that was

1229
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 2: like a like, hey kid, pick a crown, any crown.

1230
01:01:57,920 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 3: I just mean, like, if God is going to send

1231
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 3: you a message, this is a bigger moment than the

1232
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 3: egg thing. Yeah, yeah, totally.

1233
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 2: And this seems like a good place to leave it

1234
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 2: for today. When we come back on Wednesday, we're going

1235
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:11,440
Speaker 2: to talk about the refugee center he set up, the

1236
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 2: sheltered thousands of people, including thousands of Jews. We'll talk

1237
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:17,760
Speaker 2: about his death. And I'm going to do something I've

1238
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 2: avoided doing the entire run of the show. I am

1239
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 2: going to quote Jijik.

1240
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 3: Are you gonna do an impression?

1241
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 2: No? I know, I decided that that would not work

1242
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 2: well for me or anyone. Blue Sky is already mad.

1243
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 2: They've all told me to do an impression, but I

1244
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 2: will not anyway. I guess i'd say how you feel

1245
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:41,080
Speaker 2: about this guy, But we've been talking about how we

1246
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 2: feel about this guy the whole time because he's so Yeah,

1247
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 2: there's so much.

1248
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 3: I'm something, a lot of complicated feelings.

1249
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would have been a great alternative name for

1250
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 1: this show.

1251
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 2: Sitting on some complicated feelings. Yeah, cupcated feelings because they're sad.

1252
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 1: There's so many times we're like, somebody does something really

1253
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:05,640
Speaker 1: fucking cool, but then it's like they've also have done

1254
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 1: something really fucking uncool.

1255
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 3: It's just like I've read so many I've read this newspaper,

1256
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:12,920
Speaker 3: but I've read a lot of homemade newspapers about a

1257
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 3: guy who's really worried about the Jews, and their stories

1258
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 3: don't usually end the way this wind does. So like

1259
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:22,280
Speaker 3: knowing that he tries to help top people from dying

1260
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 3: in the Holocaust versus like usually when I read a

1261
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:27,720
Speaker 3: newspaper like this, it's about a guy who like wants

1262
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 3: to do a Holocaust, right. So I'm just I'm just

1263
01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:31,800
Speaker 3: feeling all mixed up inside.

1264
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 2: And I would bet if I could read the whole

1265
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 2: run of the night, which might be available online, But

1266
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 2: if so, it's in Polish that I was able to find.

1267
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 2: At least, I would bet portions of it would read

1268
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 2: like a right wing paper and portions of it would

1269
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 2: read like a socialist paper. Because that's a Catholic church

1270
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 2: for you, baby, exactly.

1271
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 3: You got Catholic social teaching and then you know, you

1272
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:57,840
Speaker 3: got Catholics themselves. Yeah, there's the stuff Jesus said, and

1273
01:03:57,880 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 3: then there's the stuff the church says.

1274
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:01,800
Speaker 2: One of the whole things about its being like the

1275
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 2: show about complicated people who do good things, is that

1276
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:07,960
Speaker 2: like that's more real it is.

1277
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 3: Life is messy.

1278
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 2: This guy, he could be someone's Republican dad, you know,

1279
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 2: and I think.

1280
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 3: People's Republican dads are out there risking their own safety

1281
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:20,680
Speaker 3: to help their neighbors.

1282
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they should not alone, but like.

1283
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:28,240
Speaker 3: They should stop voting Republicans. Yes, but you know, we're

1284
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 3: all on a journey.

1285
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:33,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and some people's journeys we'll take them to next

1286
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 2: Wednesday when we come back for part two, I hope.

1287
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 3: So let's know, weird little guys, you have freaks. It's

1288
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:43,720
Speaker 3: so good. Yeah, it's it's less complicated than this because

1289
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:46,800
Speaker 3: the guys they always suck. Yeah, they're always bad. It's

1290
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:47,520
Speaker 3: so much easier.

1291
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 2: I think about this a lot because I listened to

1292
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 2: a couple shows on cool Zone Media that are about

1293
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 2: bad people, and I'm like, I actually think you do

1294
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:55,680
Speaker 2: more work than anyone else on the network. But there's

1295
01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 2: an easier Hey, let me tell you about a guy

1296
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 2: that sucks. It's a little bit easier.

1297
01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:03,480
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, there's a lot of research involved, but like

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Speaker 3: the deciding on an emotional tone easy, this guy he

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Speaker 3: fucking sucks, yeh. In conclusion, bad guy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And then with this one it's like, inconclusion, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, man, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Life is wild, life is full of ups and downs.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, see you all on Wednesday, See.

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Speaker 3: You on Wednesday.

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Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

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Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media,

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01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:40,439
Speaker 1: visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com. Check us out

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01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 1: on I Heard Radio, appp A Podcasts, or wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts.