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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Tammy Drake, you're the director of Research and regulatory policy

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Speaker 2: for the Center for Humane Economy. You led the charge

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Speaker 2: in getting the passage to that FDA Modernization Act, and

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Speaker 2: I'm sure it felt really good and it was a

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Speaker 2: heavy lift to get that done. Describe for me what

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Speaker 2: the situation is now in terms of animal testing and experimentation.

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Speaker 2: What kinds of things are done. I know it's tough

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Speaker 2: stuff to hear this. What kinds of things are done

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Speaker 2: to dogs and cats and primates.

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Speaker 1: And other species.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it isn't pretty. And when you're looking at testing

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Speaker 3: for pharmaceuticals, primarily they start with safety pharmacology in general toxicology, right,

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Speaker 3: They're looking at cardiovascular system, the central nervous system, gas are, intestinal, respiratory,

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Speaker 3: all of that stuff, and then they have to try

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Speaker 3: to find a safety margin for a first in human dose.

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Speaker 3: In that process they are using rodents and non rodents.

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Speaker 3: For instance, if they're looking for acute toxicity, Lu's twenty rats,

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Speaker 3: dogs or primates, And when they do that, everybody dies,

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Speaker 3: right and in most cases, And Zahir can correct me

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Speaker 3: if I'm wrong because I've never worked in a lab. Thankfully,

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Speaker 3: all the animals are killed, you know, they go into

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Speaker 3: sub chronic testing, chronic testing. Over time, they use more

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Speaker 3: and more animals and they kill them because they want

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Speaker 3: to do a nekruptcy to see what the heck happened inside.

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Speaker 2: So they basically inject them with whatever drug or poison

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Speaker 2: it is to the point where, oh, that's the.

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Speaker 3: Dose that kills them exactly, and it actually that's exactly

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Speaker 3: what they do, and they have to bring it down

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Speaker 3: to where they have They call it NOEL. Correct me

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Speaker 3: if I'm wrong, a se hair, you're the scientific no

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Speaker 3: no observed adverse effect level, right, So what they do

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Speaker 3: is they'll start as okay, that killed everybody. Let's go

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Speaker 3: down a little bit, Okay, that killed half of them,

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Speaker 3: and then they'll keep trying till they get to a

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Speaker 3: dose where everybody seems okay. It's gruesome, you know, and

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Speaker 3: as an animal lover, you know it's reprehensible. But then

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Speaker 3: they have other they have to do, uh, carcinogenicity, sometimes

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Speaker 3: they do ocular and skin irritation, photo toxicity, and then

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Speaker 3: they do efficacy testing. And when we're speaking pharmaceuticals, pretty

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Speaker 3: much everybody dies, all the animals, whether it's the monkeys,

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Speaker 3: the dogs, that might the wrap, the cats, whatever they're

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Speaker 3: using as a.

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Speaker 4: Model and primates, Oh yeah, doctor, yeah, primates.

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Speaker 2: Doctors are here. Isn't wouldn't primates be? You think that

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Speaker 2: they are? The results from that are more reproducible. Well,

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Speaker 2: what kinds of things are done to primates? I think

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Speaker 2: you mentioned seventy thousand a year that we know of.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, so you would think you would think, George,

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Speaker 4: that primates are. They are believed to be closest to

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Speaker 4: us in terms of behavior and physiology. But the reality

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Speaker 4: is in primates there are fundamental differences between us and

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Speaker 4: them that do not translate when it comes to medical sciences.

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Speaker 4: I give you an example of COVID nineteen, which is,

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Speaker 4: you know, everybody here is familiar with this. We went

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Speaker 4: through that ordeal all of us. In fact, the non

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Speaker 4: human primates did not get COVID. They have a structural

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Speaker 4: difference in the way receptors work make them more immune

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Speaker 4: to COVID infection, and therefore they are terrible as a

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Speaker 4: model to study that of infection. Imagine if in fact,

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Speaker 4: there hasn't been a recorded non human primate dying from

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Speaker 4: disease burdens or multifactorial system failure, the hallmark of COVID

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Speaker 4: nineteen DA from the get go, George, again, the translatability

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Speaker 4: is not is not there, But let's assume, uh, you know,

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Speaker 4: given the general belief that the primates are close to us,

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Speaker 4: and there is there is a fundamental issue with with

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Speaker 4: primate in terms of leading us down in a rabbit

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Speaker 4: hole when it comes to the pharmaco kinetics and the

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Speaker 4: dosage that Tammy has just talked about, and that you know,

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Speaker 4: the lethality and how do you take that that does

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Speaker 4: and apply it to humans. So you have heard recently

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Speaker 4: about the shortage of primates. I you know this this

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Speaker 4: looking out that story last last year. Basically we need

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Speaker 4: to import a lot of primates from from China and

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Speaker 4: Tammis actually is an expert on this, and I wrote

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Speaker 4: an opinion piece for Without the last last year on

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Speaker 4: that where where I chronicle the issue with the primate

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Speaker 4: and and and and the futility of using using primates.

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Speaker 4: I mean to cut a long story short shortage from

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Speaker 4: from the imports of primate being somewhat compensated from Cambodia.

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Speaker 4: But then again that has been admired with smuggling issues,

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Speaker 4: and Temmy can actually shed more light on this, to

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Speaker 4: the point that the Fish Life handed indictment several indictment

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Speaker 4: criminal indictments in November of twenty twenty two, again reducing

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Speaker 4: the imports from from Cambodia and the animal enthusiast animals

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Speaker 4: so enthusiasts for the manument anymore. Research enthusiasts have been

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Speaker 4: trying to increase the breeding programs, the domestic bleeding programs

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Speaker 4: of primates, and that is a that's a terrible idea

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Speaker 4: that has been a quest for decades and they have

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Speaker 4: used this particular instance of the shortage in primate for

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Speaker 4: laboratory testing to kind of promote that agenda.

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Speaker 2: Tammy, I want to talk about the primate experimentation before

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Speaker 2: we get into the regulatory situation. Can you tell me

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Speaker 2: what is done to primates? Is it the same as

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Speaker 2: with dogs are injected until they die? I ask because

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Speaker 2: I've seen these these horrible photos of where these little

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Speaker 2: monkeys have their heads shaved and their brains are cut open,

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Speaker 2: mother alive and awake.

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Speaker 3: Yep, they and they put them in and not just

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Speaker 3: for you know, if you look at basic research as

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Speaker 3: well as drug development, like NIH funded. We have seven

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Speaker 3: National Primate Research centers here in the US, and NIH

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Speaker 3: funds all of them. And some of the experimentation is

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Speaker 3: so shocking. For instance, they here in Oregon. I live

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Speaker 3: in Oregon. The Oregon National Primate Research Center does a

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Speaker 3: lot of experimentation on drunk monkeys to the tune of

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Speaker 3: probably thirty million dollars. And then they got another grant

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Speaker 3: to do drunk monkeys and COVID. And there's another experiment

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Speaker 3: that is very famous that happened here in Oregon, and

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Speaker 3: I don't think they're doing it now, but it was

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Speaker 3: a maternal obesity study. They would get, you know, impregnate

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Speaker 3: and I think these were Reeseu's macaque monkeys, feed them

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Speaker 3: a high fat junk food diet, and then when the

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Speaker 3: offspring is born, that'd take it from their mother and

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Speaker 3: scare the monkey and then cut the baby monkey's brain

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Speaker 3: open to see what happened. And I don't know, George,

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Speaker 3: I don't know about you, but tell me how does

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Speaker 3: that benefit us. I'm trying to figure it out, because

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Speaker 3: if you think most of the research for HIV AIDS

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Speaker 3: vaccine has been done on non human primates. Many were

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Speaker 3: done on chimpanzees. We don't experiment on chimpanzees in the

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Speaker 3: US anymore, but thirty to forty vaccines in approximate ninety

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Speaker 3: clinical trials involving more than twenty thousand human volunteers. Every

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Speaker 3: single one of the vaccines failed, every single one. It

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Speaker 3: costs our tax dollars billions and it's been thirty years.

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Speaker 2: You know, the NIH then National Institutes of Health. That

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Speaker 2: sounds like a respectable outfit. I've just read, you know,

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Speaker 2: working on cancer and really big stuff, but reading about

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Speaker 2: the things that they allow that they permit there, it's

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Speaker 2: a terrible blemish is a here. You must work with

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Speaker 2: these folks over the years. Can you give me the

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Speaker 2: broad picture on what they approve?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, and I was you know, I was funded

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Speaker 4: by an ihe and I so I So, first of all,

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Speaker 4: it's and I know folks the NIH personally, and I've

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Speaker 4: worked with different program officers, and I can tell you

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Speaker 4: that the staff of the NIH are some of the

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Speaker 4: most dedicated people will you will ever meet in your life.

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Speaker 4: So the issue is not about the talent at the NIH,

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Speaker 4: or the issue about the politics that interfere with the

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Speaker 4: work of the NIH and the special interest groups. So

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Speaker 4: the NIH is, as you know, a forty five billion

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Speaker 4: dollars a year. That was the budget of twenty forty

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Speaker 4: five billion. This is we are talking a huge number.

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Speaker 4: And for the last seven years, George, the budget of

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Speaker 4: the NIH have been consistently increasing. So it's wonderful to

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Speaker 4: have to be an ecity where science is funded and appreciated.

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Speaker 4: Our position is that a lot of the science that

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Speaker 4: is funded, particularly the science that is going into to

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Speaker 4: animal research, which is by some estimate is forty seven

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Speaker 4: percent of the total NIH budgel. So we are talking

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Speaker 4: about what you like, twenty five billions, twenty to twenty.

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Speaker 4: This is not a small part of body every year.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: We believe that a lot of that is actually supporting

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Speaker 4: wasteful research, and that is a tragedy because the mission

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Speaker 4: of the NIH is really to promote human health and

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Speaker 4: to advance the innovation and discovery of the molecular basis

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Speaker 4: of the diseases in order to translate that into remedies

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Speaker 4: and cures and treatments. So there is an issue there

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Speaker 4: to a fundamental issue. Probably twenty two billion dollars you

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Speaker 4: a year in terms of using the proper modeling and

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Speaker 4: funding innovative research that needed to be funded so that

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Speaker 4: we do not get a ninety five percent failure late

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Speaker 4: when we translate the or based basic science experiments and

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Speaker 4: mostly on animals into human human action and outcomes. So

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Speaker 4: so so there is there is a huge issue there.

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Speaker 4: But I I mean, I give the the folks at

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Speaker 4: the NIH, you know, credit for for for being so

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Speaker 4: dedicated to to to to finding yours. One thing that

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Speaker 4: the public does not know is that actually the NIH

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Speaker 4: does not fund science. Now you know, let me explain

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Speaker 4: what I mean by that, because that sounds like blasphemy.

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Speaker 4: What the NIH does it ensembles on committees and studies

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Speaker 4: sections members from the academic committee community, so they bring,

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Speaker 4: you know, scientists to review these grants and drank them.

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Speaker 4: So who really decides at the end of the day.

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Speaker 4: The committee is made up of scientists in ranking and

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Speaker 4: evaluating grants. It's really not the nihe it's a scientific community.

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Speaker 4: And that scientific community is ninety nine percent a bias

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Speaker 4: towards animal experimentations. So you can, you know, you can

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Speaker 4: do the math and get to the conclusion that unless

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Speaker 4: that changed radically, unless we have a radical change in

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Speaker 4: the process of how we evaluate grants, and you know,

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Speaker 4: spike these committees with individuals who really understand what we

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Speaker 4: are talking about when we talk about alternative methods to

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Speaker 4: animal testing, innovative technology to artificial intelligence, orgaedoids, organized ship

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Speaker 4: and these type of new technologies that are more human relevant.

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Speaker 4: We are going to continue to per pitch with the

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Speaker 4: error and and and then continue to fund, unfortunately, projects

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Speaker 4: that will lead us nowhere.

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Speaker 2: Well, you would think ni H, with all their expertise,

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Speaker 2: must know that these billions of dollars are being wasted.

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Speaker 2: You know that it's it's not producing what they want,

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Speaker 2: that that money could be put into something that is

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Speaker 2: far more productive and may actually make some progress on

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Speaker 2: these issues.

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Speaker 1: You know. Listen to More Coast to Coast a m

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Speaker 1: every weeknight at one a m. Eastern and go to

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Speaker 1: Coast to coastam dot com for more