1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to blow your mind. My name 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: It's vault time. What's in the Vault today? In the 4 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: Vault today is going to be part one of a 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: two parter that we did back in August of This 6 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:26,479 Speaker 1: one originally aired August, and it's The trans Humanist Rapture War, 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: Part one, The trans Humanist Rapture War. I remember this one, Yeah, 8 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: I mostly remember. This one's kind of a blur for me, 9 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: but I remember we we got to get into a 10 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: lot of cool trans humanist territory and also discuss UH 11 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: ideas of the Christian rapture and some of the overlap 12 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: between these two ideas about our future. Yeah. I think 13 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: a lot of it had to do with UH, with 14 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: parallels between sort of technological utopianism and ideas that are 15 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: contained in popular world religions. Yeah, so this one will 16 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: be an exciting one to re air. This will actually 17 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: be an exciting topic if we want to, we may 18 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: be able to revisit because I feel like, even though 19 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: it's uh, you know, it hasn't even been two years 20 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 1: since this one aired, we've we've covered a lot of 21 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: additional ground. Uh that that is, that is in this 22 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: topic area. Oh heck, you could do a whole podcast 23 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: itself on on like techno utopianism and this whole cast 24 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: of thinking. Yeah, all right, well let's dive in. Welcome 25 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff Works 26 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 27 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and my name is Joe McCormick. 28 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: And Hey, Robert, I've got a question for you. Any 29 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: time in your life have you ever had the feeling 30 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: the things are about to come to a very serious conclusion. 31 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: And I don't mean like the meeting you're in right now, 32 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: I mean the world. Did you ever get that feeling 33 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: like you're living in the end times? This has got 34 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: to be the last of days? No um. Sometimes I 35 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: feel I sometimes I wonder what if the next moment 36 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: is going to be the last moment? Like, but it's 37 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: always there's always going to be some sort of harbinger 38 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: of destruction, right, So I don't I look up into 39 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: the sky and think, Hey, what would it be like 40 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: to see the you know, civilization busting near earth object 41 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: entering the atmosphere? I think about things like that, But 42 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: even then I'll have like a few more minutes to 43 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: process it. It all does have to come to an 44 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: end at some point, so it makes you wonder if 45 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: that end is near. And in fact, I think some 46 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: people have made statistical arguments that if you assume, okay, 47 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: I'm a random observer not a privileged observer. Uh, the 48 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: the statistical argument is that humanity has got to be 49 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: ending pretty soon because if human if the human population 50 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: continues to grow, that any many more randomly selected observers 51 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: will be among those born in the future than those 52 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: that are living you know, right now or have lived 53 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: in the past. And so if we you assume that 54 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: you are the middle of the road random observer and 55 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 1: not one of the tail end, then humanity has got 56 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: to end pretty soon. I don't really huh, because I 57 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: always would think, well, I'm not a privileged observer, why 58 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: do I get to live in the end times, Like, 59 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: surely I'm at least living in like the penultimate age 60 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: and not the ultimate age of man. Well, that instinct 61 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: of yours is I would say, fairly unique, because it 62 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: is very common for people to think that they are 63 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: living in a very privileged time. Have you noticed that. Yeah, well, no, 64 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: I think I'm living in a privileged time. I mean 65 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: compared with before. I don't mean materially privileged. I think 66 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: that's true too. I think we are some of the 67 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: luckiest people and the golden age of television, Joe, have 68 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: you seen these shows? Yeah, I'm assuming you're referring to 69 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: the fact that we can still get quantumly pre run 70 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: every now and then. But but yeah, we're materially privileged. 71 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: But uh, but I also mean privileged in terms of 72 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: I happen to be the person who's of the generation 73 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: that's alive when it all comes to the end. So 74 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: today's episode is going to be about the field of eschatology, 75 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: which is both theological and ostensibly secular, but it's the 76 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: study of the end of times. What what happens when 77 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: there is a conclusion to it all the either the 78 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: end of the human species or a very significant transition 79 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: of the human species into another kind of being, or 80 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: a very significant transition of the human species into a 81 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: very different kind of situation or station, either ushering in 82 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: a utopia that brings happiness and prosperity for all, or 83 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: you know, an apocalyptic vision. Uh. And we can get 84 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: into what these words mean in a minute, but that 85 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: brings destruction and calamity and uh, you know road warrior 86 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. Yeah, I mean, it's so much of 87 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 1: it hinges on this feeling that we're talking about, where 88 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: it just it seems like something's gotta give, something's gotta break, 89 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: something's gotta change for better or worse. It it always 90 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: takes me back to to the Yates poem. Right, surely 91 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: the second coming is at hand, like, surely something is 92 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: about to get the falcon cannot hear the falcon? Or man, 93 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: something's going wrong. Yeah, passionate enthusiasm among the worst, right, 94 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: passionate passionate intensity intensity? Yes, that's even better. Yeah, what's 95 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 1: the exact line. The the best lack all conviction, and 96 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: the worst are filled with passionate intensity. I very often 97 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: find that's true. You know, some of the some of 98 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: the best people I know with the best opinions don't 99 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: speak up that often. But man, people who have bad 100 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: opinions are allowed as heck, well, they don't have to 101 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 1: worry as much about saying the wrong thing, do that. No, Well, 102 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 1: I mean it helps when you're never wrong. Yeah, So 103 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: let's let's let's get into it here. Um, first of all, 104 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: let's just talk a little bit about basic human utopianism. 105 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: You know, I want to share a fact with you, Robert. Yeah, 106 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 1: I always assumed that the you in the word utopia 107 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: comes from the Greek prefix meaning good, as in uh, 108 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: you know, euphoria, the good feeling. But that is not 109 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: actually where it comes from too. So the title Utopia, 110 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: of course, can be traced back to Thomas Moore's book 111 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: Utopia and the sort of fictional but also philosophical treatise 112 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 1: on what a perfect society might look like. You could 113 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: look at it as a sort of update to Plato's 114 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: Republic in a way, or a laying out of the 115 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: groundwork of you know, how could we achieve a perfect world? 116 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: And so if utopia and that since had meant it 117 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: had been the way I understood it, it would have 118 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 1: meant good place. You know, you utopia a good place. 119 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: But the U is not actually eu as in good place, 120 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: but it's you as in no place, because it didn't exist, right, Okay, 121 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,559 Speaker 1: Well that makes sense. Yeah, so I think that's something 122 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: that we should keep in mind. Going all the more reason, 123 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: I guess that microsoft word is always telling me that 124 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: dystopia is not a word, really, yeah, or at least 125 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: I get that. I get that correction all the time. 126 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, dystopia has come to have a meaning 127 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: for us. It's the opposite of utopia, as this dissident 128 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: vision of the future. Right. But well, before we get 129 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: to dystopia, walk me through utopia, Robert. All right, So, 130 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: and really, intofining utopia, we essentially define dystopia human experiences. 131 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: Of course, you can think of it as the spark 132 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: on the line right between the expanse of the past 133 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: and the expanse of the future. It's like, you know, 134 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: it's like like a cartoon fuse to a bomb, right, 135 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: and we're just sparking along. And humans have thrived in 136 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: large part by their ability to perceive and mold that future. 137 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: All right. We developed new ways of doing this doing 138 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: the things we always did, hunting, farm and crafting, as 139 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: what was the ways we think about the world, cosmology, society, etcetera. 140 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: And so we ink of human existence, if we think 141 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: of human existence has to spark upon the fuse of time. 142 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: We judge the soon to ignite, and the igniting based 143 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: on the charred and flaming remnants of what proceeded is 144 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: and we we we come to look beyond and imagine 145 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: near and far futures on this very line. And so 146 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: humans across cultures and times have sought to radically transform 147 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: their existence socially, bodily, technologically, etcetera, all as as a 148 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: ways to try and and better ourselves and better the 149 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: way that we live on this world. Yeah. I think 150 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: that's true. And of course, if you look at the 151 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: basic human project of civilization as one that tends towards 152 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: creating a better life for all of us, it's easy 153 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: to look at that and conclude, well, than a successful 154 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 1: execution of this project would end in utopia. Yeah. Yeah, 155 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: it's it's kind of like the it's it's the notion 156 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 1: that if a city is essentially engineering, engineering exercise, there 157 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: should be some idealized version of the city that we're 158 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: aspiring to and then eventually we can get there. Yeah. 159 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: In this case, you know, the city is not just 160 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: a literal city, but the city is the model for 161 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 1: the you know, all things civilization. Now, I would argue 162 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: I think that one reason we sense attention here, Like 163 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: you might say, well, I don't expect us to ever 164 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: reach utopia. But I do advocate civilization continuing to try 165 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: to improve the lives of everyone for as long as possible. Uh, 166 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: doesn't that seem a contradiction. I would say that the 167 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 1: main contradiction lies in the incoherence of the idea of perfection. 168 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: You can't create a perfect society because that idea doesn't 169 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: make sense. There are inherent tensions in society. People want 170 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: different things, and so there there is no such thing 171 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: as a perfect society for everyone. Yeah. I mean, you 172 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: could make this more or less idealized building in which 173 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: people are going to live and work, But then what 174 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: are you gonna set the thermostat to right? Because some 175 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: people are going to be who hot? Some people are 176 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: gonna be too cold? Some people what? People want to 177 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:04,959 Speaker 1: wear a hoodie in the office. Some people want to 178 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: sit there and sweat. Now, one way you could get 179 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: out of this bind is by saying, you know, this 180 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: project of continually trying to improve human civilization is going 181 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: to be cut short, and it is going to be 182 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: cut short by supernatural forces. So you're talking about a 183 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: an apocalypse of spiritual apocalypse. Yes, And I think it 184 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: is very worth mentioning something about the etymology here the 185 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: word apocalypse. Now, the word apocalypse originally did not mean 186 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: mad max uh. It originally meant an unveiling or a revelation. So, 187 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: for instance, the Book of Revelation in the Bible, in 188 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: the New Testament is sometimes known as the Apocalypse of John, 189 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: means the same thing, the revelation to John John wrote down. 190 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: So it's a vision that he had all these cryptic 191 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: things that are playing out at the end of time exactly. 192 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: So a revelation it could reveal knowledge, visions, understanding, or 193 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: very often predictions of the future. And I think because 194 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: of associations with predictions about the future and the Book 195 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: of Revelation itself, the word apocalypse is a word that 196 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: has come to be associated with end to times events, 197 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,239 Speaker 1: either the end of the world, the end of humanity, 198 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: or some radical change in station and the fortune of humankind. 199 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: And we should go ahead and say when you use 200 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: the word apocalypse that change is usually for the worst, right. 201 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: People don't usually say apocalypse in a positive way, like 202 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: there will be an apocalypse and we'll it will lead 203 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: to utopia, which is interesting considering the fact that the 204 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 1: the origin of the word stems from a story that 205 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: is supposedly about the the victory of the eventual victory 206 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: of all things good over all things evil. Right. Yeah, 207 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: there are a lot of different Christian visions of the 208 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: end times, and we'll talk about them in this episode today, 209 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: but they typically involve both very negative events and ultimately 210 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: a perfectly positive event. But so the popular version of apocalypse, yeah, 211 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 1: we we associate with kind of post apocalyptic movies again, 212 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: the Road Warrior perfect example, great movie. Human civilization as 213 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: we formerly know it has ended and everything has just 214 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: gone to hell. Things fall apart, the center cannot hold right, 215 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 1: and you need guzzoline. So it's also worth stressing here 216 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: that plenty of religions do not depend on such a 217 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: linear time frame and instead have a cyclical and certainly 218 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: we see this in the older religions, the pre Christian religions. 219 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: Plenty of religions are more concerned with cosmological origins underlying 220 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: everyday reality and less of any notion on ending. So 221 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: for in for example, for example, in Hinduism, the universe 222 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: is continually created, preserve, destroyed, and created again. It's an 223 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: endless cycle, and the process of creation moves and these 224 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 1: large overarching cycles, and each cycle has four great um 225 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: epochs of time. The concept of reincarnation works alongside this 226 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: is life flows into life, flows into life. I like 227 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: this because it mirrors some different hypotheses about the ultimate 228 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: nature of the universe. Now we don't know yet what 229 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: the ultimate nature of the universe is, but there are 230 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: some cosmological models in which, for example, our local universe 231 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: maybe a bouncing universe where it it collapses into a 232 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: singularity and then re explodes back into a universe with 233 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 1: distributed matter and energy all over the place, or even 234 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: like a bouncy house where it's it's inflated in the 235 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 1: morning and the nsipuke in it all day, described out 236 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,599 Speaker 1: with chlorox bleach and deflated the evening. Yes, it is 237 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: kind of like that too. But there is another apocalyptic 238 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: spiritual event that I wanted to call attention to just 239 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: because it's so cool. I can't pretend to understand it 240 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: all that well because it's Norse mythology, and Norse mythology, 241 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: I feel like is is a more impenetrable to the 242 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: outsider type of mythology than things like Greek mythology or 243 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: do you find that too. There's I mean, I feel 244 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:55,719 Speaker 1: like I can get it a lot more when I 245 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: listened to death metal. Okay, I think that's that's how 246 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: I tend to Ryan process it. Think of like extreme 247 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: survivalist situations. Uh, and the and the and the resulting 248 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: pantheon of gods, the resulting time frame of events that 249 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: would that would shape that and be shaped by that. Well. Yeah, 250 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: in that popular sense of apocalyptic Norse mythology has some 251 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: great apocalyptic events that they've got Ragnarok and it's this 252 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: epic eschatological battle involving God's monsters, chaos. There's this disastrous 253 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: cataclysmic winter, the mountains crumble, this giant sea serpent comes 254 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: up and spits venom over all the earth and poisons 255 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: the waters. And there's this huge slog down, bloody battle 256 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: where most of the gods get killed. Uh it's brutal, 257 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: but hey, it would be an extreme bummer of a 258 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: religion that just ends with a cataclysmic disaster for everyone 259 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: and has nothing positive to come of it. So so 260 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: many religions also sort of have spiritual utopias in their 261 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: eschatological framework, right that the end times will result in 262 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: some kind of very positive situation for many people at least. 263 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: That's right now. Obviously we're going to get to the 264 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: Christian models here in a minute, but before we get there, 265 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: I want to just touch base on on some Buddhist 266 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: ideas here. So there's a recurring theme in Hinduism and 267 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: Buddhism that one may escape the endless cycle of death 268 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: and rebirth, the wheel of sam Sara and attain liberation um. 269 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: And you can interpret such liberation as it's as its 270 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: own form of ending or perfection even but it's also 271 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: kind of a it's a form of escape, perform an 272 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: ending that can be acquired at any point along the line. 273 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: So there's not you don't have to wait till the 274 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: end times or some distant future to attain liberation to 275 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: reach nirvana. So the inner journey as opposed to a 276 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: physical world journey, yeah, asynchronous timelines. That being said, um, 277 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: there is a pretty cool um idea out there, and 278 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: that is the belief system within Buddhism that's a millennial 279 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: Buddhist in particular. Uh. They have this, uh, this character 280 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: known as my Trea, and my Trea is the Bodhisattva, 281 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: the being, an enlightenment of the future who will arrive 282 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: on Earth. Generally, I've seen some numbers thrown out there, 283 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: but just it's gonna be a long time in the future, 284 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: trust me. No, Robert, you have a number in our notes, 285 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: I can tell us. Okay, I have a number, and 286 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: this is a This one comes from a from my 287 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: belief Japanese model. There's a sect of Buddhist monks there 288 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: that are devoted to my trio and I and I 289 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: forgive me, I do not recall the Japanese name from 290 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: my trea off the top of my head. But it 291 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: is what five billion years in the future. My reading 292 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: that those are a lot of zeros. Uh No, that 293 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: would be five trillion, trillion, six seventy billion years. So 294 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: it's no way sixties seven, six and seventy billion years. 295 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: It's a colossal number. And it's from that this would 296 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: be this is gonna be like a far future time 297 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: when people live to incredible ages. I want to say 298 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: eighty thousand years old. So huge numbers involved here, and 299 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: my treo would be the ultimate successor to our current Buddha. 300 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 1: Um sidhard Gotama got him a Buddha and uh this 301 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: Buddha will achieve complete enlightenment and teach pure dharma here 302 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: on earth and I just want to read a quick quote. 303 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: This is from book of My Tree of the Future 304 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 1: Buddha by Alan Spenberg, says quote, the prospect of a 305 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: future Buddha, yet another in the long line of Buddhas, 306 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 1: offers an attractive possibility. Although liberation from suffering is possible 307 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 1: for anyone at any time, according to Buddhist those being 308 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: fortunate enough to live at a time when a Buddha 309 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: is active in the world are far more likely to 310 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: realize the arduous goal of ringing all craving to cessation. 311 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: Though perhaps initially a minor figure in the early Buddhist tradition, 312 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: my tread thus comes to represent a hope for the future, 313 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: a time when all human beings could once again enjoy 314 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: the spiritual and physical environment most favorable to enlightenment and 315 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,959 Speaker 1: the release from worldly suffering. I think that's fascinating because 316 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: the very positive situation here, that the utopia that's being 317 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: brought about isn't one necessarily of material fulfillment, but one 318 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: of the realization of the lack of necessity for material fulfillment. 319 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: Very often, when you see like a heaven or just 320 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: any kind of very positive, spiritually imagined future situation, people 321 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: people speak of material comforts. Yeah, yeah, and indeed this, uh, 322 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: this particular idea, I guess would only entail material comforts, 323 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: and insofar as they enable you to seek inner enlightenment 324 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: and realize that you don't need material comes right. Okay, 325 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: So a lot of what we're gonna be talking about 326 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: in this episode is not just spiritual, religious supernatural frameworks 327 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 1: for eschatology, but actually secular and very often scientific or 328 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: technological frameworks for eschatology. And there are just like we 329 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: talked about religious apocalypses and religious future utopias, there are 330 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: secular apocalypses and secular future utopias. Yeah. And I think 331 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: the fascinating thing here and and and something prev going 332 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 1: to keep in mind as we we play with this 333 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: topic here today is that there's so much shared circuitry 334 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: involved with both ideas. So, you know, it's it's easy 335 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: for for for an atheist to stand on one side 336 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: and scoff at some of these spiritual ideas of utopia 337 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: and salvation and destruction. But when you break it down, 338 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: how different is the underlying experience of those ideas? How 339 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: different is that from some of these secular ideas we're 340 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: discussing now, well, that's a to question. I think we 341 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: should discuss them and explore. Well, as far as secular 342 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: apocalypses go, we really don't even have to to mention 343 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: many of them. I mean that they're pretty obvious. The 344 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: idea of nuclear annihilation, of global cataclysm green goo, greg goo. Um. 345 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: I don't even know if this one's a thing, but 346 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go and say it, brown goo. Who knows? Um? Singularity? Um? 347 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: I I love our Scott Baker's idea of a semantic apocalypse, 348 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,959 Speaker 1: which one is that semantic apocalypse is basically just the 349 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: death of meaning. Where we reached this point from where 350 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: we have a certain neuroscientific understanding of the human experience, 351 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: and uh, we realize that all human consciousness is a 352 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: coin trick, and we explain the coin trick. Oh, it's 353 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: kind of a Nietzsche in despair. Yeah, well, all of 354 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: those are possible things that people could predict happening, you know. 355 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: So you've got green goo, grey goo. You know, people 356 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: talking about nanotechnology or something that could take over the world. 357 00:20:57,720 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: We don't even have that kind of nanotechnology yet, and 358 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 1: maybe we never could. Uh, it could just be something 359 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: impossible that people are dreaming up. But on the other hand, ultimately, 360 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: if we assume that our current understanding of physics is 361 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: basically correct, and we think it probably is, I mean, 362 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: there's a lot we don't know, but what we do 363 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 1: know we're pretty confident about, and that the laws of 364 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: physics don't change with time. Our scientific picture of the 365 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: universe does very firmly predict one type of scaton that 366 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 1: is unsurvivable. Right, And I want to read a section 367 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: from a book I've been reading. Actually, it's a book 368 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 1: by the physicist Sean Carroll called The Big Picture, and 369 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 1: he's talking about the physical cosmological model of what's going 370 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: to happen to the universe after a while. So he 371 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 1: talks about the accelerating expansion of the universe, and that's 372 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 1: fueled by the pull of vacuum energy, you know, the 373 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: the energy out there that's causing the galaxies to expand 374 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: farther and farther apart. Uh, And that all tells us 375 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: more or less what's going to happen. He writes, quote, 376 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 1: it's possible, and in some sense would be simplest for 377 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: the accelerated expansion to simply continue without end. That leads 378 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: to a somewhat lonely future for our universe. Right now, 379 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: the night sky is alive with brightly shining stars and 380 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 1: galaxies that can't last forever. Stars use up their fuel 381 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: and will eventually fade to black. Astronomers estimate that the 382 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: last dim star will wink out around one quadrillion or 383 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: ten to the fifteen years from now. Okay, that's well, 384 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: that's well after the age of my Trea. Yeah, good 385 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: to know. Yeah, though, who knows how long my Treya lives. 386 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,479 Speaker 1: Just throwing that out there. My Trea could could have 387 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: something to say about these stars burning up all their fuel. 388 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: But anyway, Carol continues. By then, other galaxies will have 389 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: moved far away, and our local group of galaxies will 390 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: be populated by planets, dead stars, and black holes. One 391 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: by one, those planets and dead stars will fall into 392 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: the black holes, which in turn will join into one 393 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 1: supermassive black hole. Ultimately, as Stephen Hawking taught us, even 394 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 1: those black holes will evaporate. After about one google or 395 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 1: tend to the one hundred years, all of the black 396 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,919 Speaker 1: holes in our observable universe will have evaporated into a 397 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: thin mist of particles which will grow more and more 398 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: dilute as space continues to expand. The end result of 399 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 1: this are most likely scenario for the future of the 400 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: universe is nothing but cold empty space, which will last 401 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: literally forever. Well that's uh, that's nice and dark, literally 402 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: and figuratively. So then again, it sounds like that mist 403 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: of particles. That sounds kind of refreshing. Yeah, I mean, 404 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: but also it's you're dealing with such a long period 405 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: of time here, it's kind of it's kind of like 406 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 1: the idea of the humanless universal, lifeless universe. It's really 407 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: more just returned to normal normalcy universe, right, I mean, 408 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: we were not around for ages and ages and ages 409 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: for the vast major already of cosmological time. Yeah, so 410 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: what's it mattered that we're not going to survive in 411 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 1: the long run either. Well, I'm just trying to offer 412 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: an example of how you don't have to get far 413 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: out into left field with crazy technological predictions in order 414 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: to say that at some point there will be an end. 415 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: There will be an endpoint to humanity. Uh that you know, 416 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: it's it's hard to survive the energy evaporation death of 417 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 1: the universe unless in a post my Trea world we 418 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: have figured out ways technologically to escape into alternate universes. 419 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: So true, in those doors to alternate universes, maybe our salvation, 420 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,959 Speaker 1: but you might not have to walk through a door 421 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: to reach a very different kind of world that might 422 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 1: be much better than the one we have. Because there 423 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,719 Speaker 1: are also secular visions of utopias right there, most certainly are. 424 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,719 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be heaven. It can be we 425 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: can make heaven here on earth, according to some people. Yeah, 426 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: I mean, in a way, a lot of these remind 427 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 1: me of the my Trea vision, the idea that you're 428 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 1: gonna you're gonna have a world where people are going 429 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: to be able to find peace. Um. So we have 430 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: various models from this, I mean some of the ones 431 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: that are more scientifically based. We have various ideas about 432 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: what a post scarcity society might be. Transhumanist existence, um, 433 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: the the the essential Star Trek model of life on 434 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: Earth right where everybody's gotten to the point where we 435 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: get along. We have technology that we have holio decks, 436 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: and we have machines that will just create whatever food 437 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: we need on demand, new ages of human consciousness, uh, 438 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: and various positive spins on the technological singularity Yeah. Now, 439 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 1: if you don't know that much about the singularity, or 440 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: even if you do, we're gonna be talking about that 441 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: at more length later on, and how that fits into 442 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: ideas of religious eschatology. And then, of course, there are 443 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 1: so many different secular models of utopia that are that 444 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: are that are based on how we can build a 445 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: better society um, various utopian cults, various utopian mindsets that 446 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,239 Speaker 1: have been thrown out air, new political models, ways of 447 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: organizing ourselves, ways of building that better city that rely 448 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: less on technology and more on simply the ordering of 449 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,719 Speaker 1: ourselves and the ordering of the inner self. All right, 450 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, 451 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: we will explore the Christian rapture. All right, we're back 452 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: to rap about the Christian Rapture. I wonder if there 453 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 1: has been any Christian hip hop that has expressly concerned 454 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: itself with the rapture. I would love to hear about it. 455 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: Quite sure that has happened. Well, you know there's that 456 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: Blondie song, right ra sure? No, is that about the rapture? No? 457 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: I don't think so. But it's very weird, is that 458 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 1: the one? I think that's the one about the man 459 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: for Mars. He's eating cars, and now he goes out 460 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: and needs guitars. I'm not sure which which part of 461 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: the back Book of Revelation she's referring to. There. The 462 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: Book of Revelation is full of wonderfully strange imagry, and 463 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: that would that would fit right in actually, But okay, 464 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: so the Christian rapture. I wanna just put you in 465 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: a scenario. You're on a plane. There may or may 466 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: not be snakes on the plane, doesn't matter either way. 467 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: Suddenly many people on the plane have disappeared, possibly including 468 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 1: the pilot and co pilot, but thankfully for you this time, 469 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 1: not the pilot and copilot. Is this a lingual ears thing? No, 470 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: But I am describing a scene from a popular novel, 471 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: and we'll get to that in just a minute. So 472 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: the people are gone where you would have normally found them. Uh, 473 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: instead of people sitting in their seats eating bags of 474 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: peanuts watching Terminator Genesis. Uh, you find little piles of 475 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: clothes and a friend of mine. This is a funny. 476 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 1: Once actually told me that he watched a low budget 477 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 1: Christian apocalypse movie in which there's this this scene happens, 478 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: people disappear and their clothes are left behind. But he 479 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: says that the clothes were not only empty, but neatly 480 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 1: starched and folded, and in some shot you could see 481 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: that they still had price tags attached to them. But anyway, 482 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: people start screaming, wailing where did their loved ones go? 483 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: And at first it's a mystery, but then, uh, it 484 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: gradually becomes a parent that what the people who disappeared 485 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: had in common was their firm belief in Jesus Christ. 486 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: And this is this is a scene from Left Behind, 487 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: a popular work of Christian schatological fantasy fiction by Tim 488 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: Lahay and Jerry B. Jenkins. You've probably heard of this before, Robert, 489 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: I assume you're pretty familiar with Left Behind, right, Yes, 490 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: I am familiar with Left Behind, though though I have 491 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: to say I don't think it really picked up steam 492 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: in the church community I was a part of as 493 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: like as a as a kid and junior high in 494 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: high school student. Until after I was kind of, um, 495 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: you know, after I was less active in that community 496 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: where we were more into uh, this present darkness by 497 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: I think it's frank and that essentially was kind of 498 00:28:58,480 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: the whole series of books that had to do a 499 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: viiritual warfare. So it was more concerned with the idea 500 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: that kind of a a screw tape scenario was always 501 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: playing out all around us. And then there are angels 502 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: and demons like duking it out for your mind and yeah, 503 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: so that was big. I think those came out in 504 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: like eighty five initially, and Left Behind the first Left 505 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: Behind book came out in nine, so I think it 506 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,719 Speaker 1: was out, but it was just really beginning to build steam. 507 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: Huh Okay. Well, so this scenario I've described and Left 508 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: Behind this is it is part of a work of 509 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: Christian fantasy fiction. But the idea is not just something 510 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: that the author's dreamed up. It's been a popular element 511 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: of Christian eschatology for many years. So where does this 512 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: idea of the rapture come from? That this is the rapture? 513 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: People are are they disappear? They've been raptured up. So 514 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: I would say it's a complex doctrine with varying theological interpretations, 515 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: but the general rapture belief is usually linked most directly 516 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: to a passage in First Thessalonians chapter four, where where 517 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,719 Speaker 1: the author of the letter, presumed to be Paul, writes 518 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, 519 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: with the voice of the archangel and with the trump 520 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 521 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: Then we which are alive and remain, shall be caught 522 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,959 Speaker 1: up together with them in the clouds to meet the 523 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: Lord in the air. So shall we ever be with 524 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. So 525 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: technically the rapture is actually people often use the rapture 526 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: as a term to signify the Christian escaton that you know, 527 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: the end of days, but it's actually just one event, uh, 528 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: sort of a moment from this whole complex system of 529 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: Christian eschatology. But the idea is that upon the moment 530 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: of the earthly return of Christ, dead Christians will be resurrected, 531 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: and living Christians will be miraculously sucked up into the 532 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: sky to meet the Lord, who is presumably descending from 533 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: above at the same moment. But there are some elements 534 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: of Christian eschatology that match very much what we were 535 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: talking about earlier with the idea of of apocalypses and 536 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: and utopias. So I mean, because that sounds like an 537 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: apocalypse for for pretty much everybody, Like that's going to 538 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: end the workday, no matter no matter what. Yeah, it's 539 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: always It's always played for horror in the Christian Apocalypse movies, right, 540 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: you know, people people start screaming, they don't know what's happened. 541 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: It is, uh, I guess it is assumed to be 542 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: a very positive event for the people who have been raptured, 543 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: but for those left on earth it is not a 544 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: very positive event. Now this is my own two sense, 545 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: but I wonder, I wonder if that the rapture narrative 546 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: as it's been popularized, uh in current society, if it 547 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: speaks to a desire for the kind of public, passive, 548 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: aggressive rectification of faith, you know, in an age of 549 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: perceived marginalization of traditional ridgious beliefs. So you get, you 550 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: get liberation from a weary world with just a hint 551 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: of a middle finger to those that are left behind 552 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: it didn't who didn't believe in what you believed and 553 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: didn't have the same faith that you had, which you know, 554 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,719 Speaker 1: is arguably a better moral stance than fantasies of hell 555 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: fire and an eternal torment for those who don't agree 556 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: with you. But still, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't try 557 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: to psycho and I'm sure everybody's got different attitudes toward it, 558 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: but I'm sure for some people there is an element 559 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: of that is kind of like I'm out of here. 560 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: So yeah, you know, And today we're gonna be focusing 561 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: on what would be called Christian futurists. These are people 562 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: who think biblical prophecies are going to be fulfilled sometime 563 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: in the future. There are also other types of people 564 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: who interpret the Bible differently their pretors, who believe that 565 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: these prophecies were fulfilled during the events described in the 566 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: New Testament, or in the early years of the Church, 567 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: or sometime in the past. Uh. They're also those who 568 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: believe it's all a bit metaphorical. Really, But there are 569 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: very few broad concepts and distinctions in Christian futurists eschatological 570 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: thinking that that we can relate to in this episode. 571 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: So one is this big, the big event, the main show, 572 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: the second Coming of Christ. So Christians believe that that 573 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ was martyred, rose from the dead, ascended to heaven, 574 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: and at some point after his ascension as described in 575 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: the Bible, Christ will return to Earth, or perhaps in 576 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: some sense has already returned literal or metaphorical. But in 577 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,239 Speaker 1: any case, he comes back, and he's not here just 578 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: to visit. There's some schatological purpose to his return, and 579 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: there are different views on what that is, but usually 580 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: it involves some sort of putting the hammer down, like 581 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: there is an act of final judgment. Jesus is back 582 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: in this time. It's personal. Yeah, But then there's this 583 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: concept of the tribulation. So many Christians also believe that 584 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: immediately before the second coming of Christ, there will be 585 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: a time of great suffering. You know, it's often described 586 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: as war, persecution, hardship, hunger, pain, disease, destruction, and this 587 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: very bad period, this road warrior periods, as you might 588 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: want to associate it is known as the tribulation. This 589 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: is your apocalyptic aspect. And in the pop culture since 590 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: the term it's it's about as close as Christianity gets 591 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: to full road warrior. In a way, you can think 592 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: of it as kind of like the fattening of the 593 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 1: pig for for for slaughter. Right, If you think of 594 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: of hardship and warfare and human suffering is kind of 595 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 1: like the fertile soil from which you know, faith and 596 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 1: especially like strong faith can emerge, then that's Uh, that 597 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: that's kind of how I sometimes interpret this vision. Yeah, 598 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: and I think that's actually a concept you see throughout 599 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: the theological history of Christianity. There there's very much emphasis 600 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 1: on hardship causing people to strengthen their their faith or 601 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: their or their religious character. But so where does this 602 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: idea of the tribulation comes from. It comes from the 603 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: preaching of Jesus, essentially in the Book of Matthew, for example, 604 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: and he's talking about right before the Son of Man returns. 605 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: He says, for then shall be great tribut relations such 606 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 1: as was not since the beginning of the world to 607 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: this time, no nor ever shall be And except those 608 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,760 Speaker 1: days should be shortened. There should no flesh be saved, 609 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: but for the elect sake, those days shall be shortened. 610 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: So something's gonna gonna cut off the tribulation. What's going 611 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 1: to happen? What will it be shortened by? Well, perhaps 612 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: it is the millennium. This is another concept from Christians chatology, 613 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: and it's a period of utopian rule on earth where 614 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 1: Christ himself or Christian Goodness generally will rule over the 615 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: earth for one thousand years. So sometimes this is interpreted 616 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: as a long period of time represented metaphorically by the 617 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: idea of a thousand years. Sometimes it's literally a thousand years. 618 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 1: But this comes primarily from the Book of Revelation, chapter twenty, 619 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,760 Speaker 1: in which it said that those who have been martyred 620 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: for not having taken the mark of the beast on 621 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: their hands or their foreheads will be resurrected and rule 622 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,760 Speaker 1: with Christ for a thousand years. Now, there are tons 623 00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 1: of different ways that you can put all these can 624 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: steps together. They're there are different ideas about in what 625 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 1: order they come. Their pre millennialists who think that Christ's 626 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 1: second coming will happen right before the millennium begins. There 627 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: are post millennialists who think that Christ's second coming and 628 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: final judgment will happen at the end of the millennium. 629 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 1: And they're also among the pre millennialists. Some who think 630 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: the rapture is going to happen before the tribulation, in 631 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,959 Speaker 1: the middle of the tribulation, or that the rapture won't 632 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 1: literally happen at all. So so there's a great diversity 633 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: of opinion. I don't want to represent them as all 634 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,919 Speaker 1: thinking the same thing, And of course I should also 635 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: stress that there are plenty of Christians who don't really 636 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: buy into any of this in times framework. You know, 637 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: they're a millennialists that they're not they're not looking forward 638 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: to any kind of apocalypse or utopia on earth in 639 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: any sense. Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously it's going 640 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: to vary from from sack to sack, from individual to individual, 641 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 1: but it's I think it's definitely hard to argue that 642 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: at the at the end of the date is anything 643 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: that occurs and like a book of refel relation, does 644 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: anything concerning the end times really affect your day to 645 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: day that much? You know? Yeah, well I don't know, 646 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: it might, it might, And I want to make a 647 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 1: case actually why some people would say that belief in 648 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:19,240 Speaker 1: the end time, whether religious or secular, does actually affect 649 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: the way we live our lives. Well, I guess it 650 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: depends on when you were you're throwing out that end time, 651 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,919 Speaker 1: when you're throwing out that cataclysmic event, when you're throwing 652 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: out that utopia, if you think it's gonna occur near 653 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: enough in the future that you can actively structure your 654 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: life in accordance to it, I mean, that's one thing. 655 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:38,800 Speaker 1: Well that that is a point that will be echoed 656 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: by somebody. I want to quote in a bit. Okay, So, Robert, 657 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: we we've talked about utopias, apocalypse is the end times, 658 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 1: the s chatological views of of what's coming down the road, 659 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 1: how soon it's coming, and is it going to be 660 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 1: good or is it going to be bad. But these 661 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: ideas are not, of course limited to religious believers, right right, Yeah, 662 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: We've had plenty of concepts that have been thrown out 663 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: there in terms in terms of uh, you know, secular utopia, 664 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: even a scientific utopia. I mean you can, if you 665 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: you can trace fictionalized versions of this journey all the 666 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: way back to the epic of Gilgamesh, humanity's earliest surviving 667 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 1: piece of literature, dating back to the second millennium BC, 668 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,840 Speaker 1: in which which are our hero wants the secret of 669 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: immortality and failing that, realizes that the greatest aim is 670 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 1: to just build a city, just build an awesome city instead, 671 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: and then that's even you know that that's also really 672 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: hard work. Well, there's that project of civilization, right yeah. 673 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 1: But but even in just the epic Goodogamesh, we see 674 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 1: that quest for more life and a better system for 675 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 1: living as a people. Now, um I was reading a 676 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: wonderful two thousand twelve article from James J. Hughes titled 677 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: the Politics of trans human Humanism and the Techno Millennial 678 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: Imagination sixty six through uh and he traces trans humanism 679 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: and trans humanist thought back to and to the European 680 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 1: Enlightenment in the sevent hundreds. Now, sorry to interrupt, but 681 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: you and Christian did an episode about trans humanism recently, right, Yeah, 682 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 1: we we may have done a couple of them, now 683 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: that I think about it. Um, well, it's kind of 684 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,279 Speaker 1: been a summer of trans humanism, if you will. So 685 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: we've you know, talked that we did an episode that 686 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: was devoted to just the general idea of trans humanism 687 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 1: and some of the different sects of trans humanism that 688 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,319 Speaker 1: are present in the world. But can you give us 689 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: a one sentence digest basically that through science and technology, 690 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,879 Speaker 1: we can create a better expression of the human form 691 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,720 Speaker 1: and or human society, so we can we can live longer, 692 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 1: we can live happier, we can And this is where 693 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,319 Speaker 1: the definition varies, because you have you have some people 694 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: whose idea of trans humanism is far more individual based. 695 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: So it's like, hey, some people are gonna live forever 696 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,959 Speaker 1: and have spaceships and that's great. Other people are gonna say, well, 697 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,400 Speaker 1: we're not really trans humanist unless everybody can live forever 698 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: and everybody has access to to spaceships, and you've solved 699 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: some of these other problems. So it gets it gets 700 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: it turns into a mire rather quickly, right. But it's 701 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,359 Speaker 1: the idea of transcending the human animal. And well, so 702 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 1: do you want to transcend into the species level or 703 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 1: just modify your own body to transcend your birth nature. Yeah, 704 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:20,759 Speaker 1: it's kind of the same idea that you see with 705 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 1: your topian models in general, where people will say, hey, 706 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 1: this is where we are, now, this is where we 707 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: would like to be. And then in addition to squabbles 708 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,360 Speaker 1: about where you want to go, there's the inevitable problem 709 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: of how you get there. Okay, but back to James Hughes, 710 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 1: what's his argument. Okay, So he says that a lot 711 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,319 Speaker 1: of transhumutism dates back to the European Enlightenment of the 712 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: seventeen hundreds, which allowed the same millennialist dreams we've discussed 713 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 1: in religious terms, Uh, these aspirations to grow, to grow 714 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: who we are, but instead of doing it on you know, 715 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 1: based on faith, based on the divine intervention or some 716 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: other model. It's it all has to do with reason 717 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: and science and technology. So machines will free us from 718 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: our labor, medicine will rid us of disease, and peace 719 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 1: will wash across the land. It's a basic Enlightenment tenants there. Um. 720 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,359 Speaker 1: And of course somehow also acknowledged that we might have 721 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 1: some of the enlightenment. Thinker said, okay, we might have 722 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,319 Speaker 1: to also fight a whole bunch of awful wars there. Yeah, 723 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 1: so we might have to go through a tribulation. Yeah, 724 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 1: exactly to the millennium. And in generally the details of 725 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: the ascension, the science of the rapture, if you will, 726 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 1: is ever varied, argued, and sometimes glossed over all altogether. Um. 727 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: But Hughes says, quote, it was in this stew of 728 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:42,440 Speaker 1: often contradictory ideas about the nature of progress that modern 729 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 1: technomillennialism was forged. And you have a number of individuals, 730 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: early individuals who are getting involved in these ideas. Um. 731 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin, William Godwin, or just too that argued that 732 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: humans would eventually conquer oppression, inequality, disease, and death. Um. 733 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: What about ditto? Ditto is interesting? Um, seventeen sixty nine. 734 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 1: Uh in his work, uh De Almbert's Dream proposed that 735 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,840 Speaker 1: human brains might be taken apart and then put back together, 736 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: that intelligent animals and animal human hybrids might be possible. 737 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 1: And this one's the big kicker. Sophisticated machines might have mine. Oh, 738 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about that in a minute, because 739 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: there is plenty of artificial intelligence eschatology right now. The 740 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 1: post Enlightenment quest for better life, for utopia even um, 741 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,160 Speaker 1: obviously we could spend multiple podcasts if we wanted to 742 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: just talking about that, all the the individual expressions of this, 743 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 1: uh of this, this this grasping. But in short, you 744 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,360 Speaker 1: see a number of different social movements, right, you see 745 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: you see everything from anarchism and liberalism, social democracy, Marxist lenin, Leninism, fascism. 746 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,640 Speaker 1: It's right, all these different models of this is what 747 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 1: we need to do. This is how we need to 748 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:08,359 Speaker 1: reorganize ourselves, cast out that the old, embrace the new, 749 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,880 Speaker 1: and we're gonna be better for it. And of course 750 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 1: none of them really worked out quite as intended, even 751 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,839 Speaker 1: the ones that arguably worked right, Well, what's your beef 752 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 1: with social democracy? No? I love social democracy. But uh, 753 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 1: let's just say that we're done always we're still working 754 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 1: out the kinks. Yeah, I can see that. And of 755 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 1: course we would be remiss if we didn't mention eugenics, right, 756 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: I mean, that's a utopian vision that's now widely regarded 757 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,680 Speaker 1: as a as an utterly bankrupt and evil idea. Yeah, 758 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: it's and it's fascinating because in a post it's like 759 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 1: a postar in a post oar winning world eugenics. If 760 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,440 Speaker 1: you strip away all the horrible things that came out 761 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,840 Speaker 1: of it, if you just like basically, if you stripped 762 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: the meat off of the carcass of eugenics and you 763 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: just look at the bones, you can say, well, that 764 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,640 Speaker 1: seems to make a certain amount of sense, right, treat 765 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:10,879 Speaker 1: you know, basically selectively breed humanity to improve the expression 766 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 1: of the human species. It's something that that that sounds 767 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,560 Speaker 1: fine until you think about process. You know, so what 768 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 1: is the process of doing that? Well, that requires either 769 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:26,360 Speaker 1: killing people who you think harbor less desirable genes or 770 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: not allowing them to breed, or not allowing them to 771 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,239 Speaker 1: breed at the same rate as people who you think 772 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,320 Speaker 1: possessed desirable genes. Also, in the process is the idea 773 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 1: of selection. Who gets to pick which genes are desirable. 774 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,200 Speaker 1: Some people might think, well, it's not just genes that 775 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,400 Speaker 1: prevent certain diseases and make people live longer and stuff 776 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,960 Speaker 1: like that. Some people might think that certain uh, you know, 777 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 1: continental origins are more preferable than others, and so you 778 00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:57,000 Speaker 1: get into really nasty territory. But I think what's interesting 779 00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: here is that eugenics is really not that different from 780 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,680 Speaker 1: the idea of the Christian rapture, right, because then in eugenics, 781 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,760 Speaker 1: it's basically this idea that selected races and gene lineages 782 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,120 Speaker 1: are going to be lifted up and essentially the rest 783 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,920 Speaker 1: are doomed. So it's an it's an an elevation. It's 784 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,479 Speaker 1: an ascension of certain models of humanity in the same 785 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: way that a Christian rapture means the elevation and survival 786 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 1: of certain very particular modes of human thought, faith, and reason. Well, yeah, 787 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:29,719 Speaker 1: this does sort of highlight that they're There are very 788 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: different ways of thinking about the idea of of utopia 789 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 1: and apocalypse at the end of times. Is is it 790 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:40,280 Speaker 1: egalitarian in nature? Like does does the destruction that's coming 791 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,160 Speaker 1: or the great blessing that's coming apply to everyone or 792 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 1: does it only apply to some One person's utopia is 793 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: another person's apocalypse, right, It could be very much and 794 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,640 Speaker 1: often within the same system. Is now fast forward a bit, 795 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:55,759 Speaker 1: skip over a lot of stuff, and you kind of 796 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,200 Speaker 1: get to our current Can we condemn eugenics and move on? Yeah? Yeah, 797 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,840 Speaker 1: Having condemned eugenics and moving on, we get into another 798 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,400 Speaker 1: area here. Uh, certainly into more of our current transhumanist 799 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,520 Speaker 1: ideas and a lot of the fascinating material that we've 800 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,160 Speaker 1: even discussed on the show about genetic engineering, genetic manipulation 801 00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:18,399 Speaker 1: UM that are in many ways not that different from 802 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 1: some some some of the goals and aspirations of eugenics, 803 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:28,040 Speaker 1: but achieved or potentially achieved through you know, far less 804 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:32,879 Speaker 1: morally reprehensible. Means the idea of simply selecting how genes 805 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:40,600 Speaker 1: are expressed in our children, creating genetically modified UM expressions 806 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:47,640 Speaker 1: that are more ideal without actively harming anybody. Okay, so yeah, 807 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 1: it's essentially taking the core nut of eugenics but applying 808 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,839 Speaker 1: it in an individual consent level and saying we're not 809 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,040 Speaker 1: killing anybody or telling anybody they can't breed. Yeah, And 810 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,200 Speaker 1: on top of this we have of, you know, various 811 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:08,040 Speaker 1: other models of trans humanist um ascension, right, technological augmentation, cyborgs, 812 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,600 Speaker 1: virtual worlds, space exploration, colonization because let's remember, you know 813 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,799 Speaker 1: a lot of the ideas of exploration and particularly colonization 814 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,000 Speaker 1: of other worlds. It's about the long term survival of 815 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,960 Speaker 1: the human race, right. And in fact, there's a there's 816 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,480 Speaker 1: a two thousand twelve book that came out from Corey 817 00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,920 Speaker 1: dr Ow and Charles Stross titled The Rapture of the Nerds, 818 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,680 Speaker 1: which which I have not read, uh my first and 819 00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:35,040 Speaker 1: interesting things about it, but it is in effect that 820 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,839 Speaker 1: term is referring to a trans humanist elevation of at 821 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,759 Speaker 1: least certain individuals and some of the problems that occur there. Yeah, well, 822 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I certainly I don't know to what extent 823 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,840 Speaker 1: this makes the idea of trans humanism religious in nature. 824 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,359 Speaker 1: And that's something we can talk about, is you know, 825 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,080 Speaker 1: to what extent does a similarity to a religious idea 826 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,000 Speaker 1: make an idea of religious I don't know if I 827 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,560 Speaker 1: would say trans humanism is a religio gen or not. 828 00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:02,520 Speaker 1: You might be able to make that argument, but in 829 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,240 Speaker 1: any case, I I do see parallels to, for example, 830 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,480 Speaker 1: the idea and Christianity of resurrection bodies. You know, the 831 00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,839 Speaker 1: idea that the those who are dead in Christ, upon 832 00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:15,400 Speaker 1: Christ's return will be resurrected in in bodies made of 833 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:19,160 Speaker 1: like a like a better spiritual material. It sounds a 834 00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:22,239 Speaker 1: lot like trans human body modification to me, Like you 835 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,200 Speaker 1: have your body remade in a way that will never age, 836 00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:28,960 Speaker 1: will never die, will somehow still be you, but won't 837 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,640 Speaker 1: be that crappy body you had before. Yeah. I don't 838 00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,640 Speaker 1: think it's so much that the trans humanism is religious 839 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:36,640 Speaker 1: in nature, but some of these religious models we've been 840 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: discussing they share the same energy as as trans humanism, 841 00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:46,120 Speaker 1: Like they're similar fears, similar aspirations about who we are 842 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,319 Speaker 1: and where we're going. All right, everybody, We actually have 843 00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,760 Speaker 1: much more on this topic, but we went so long 844 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,680 Speaker 1: we're splitting it into two episodes, So come back next 845 00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:00,239 Speaker 1: time and we will continue this discussion of of rat sure, 846 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,879 Speaker 1: trans humanism, utopianism, and then of course, how we as 847 00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:09,480 Speaker 1: humans deal with these these prophecies, both secular and spiritual, 848 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,360 Speaker 1: when they do not come to pass. In the meantime, 849 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,839 Speaker 1: reach out to us on all the normal platforms you'll 850 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:16,200 Speaker 1: find us a stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 851 00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,440 Speaker 1: You'll find us on Facebook and Twitter as well as 852 00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,799 Speaker 1: Tumbler and Instagram, and if you want to email us, 853 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,200 Speaker 1: you can do so as always, that blow the mind 854 00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:36,080 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com for more on this 855 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,759 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works 856 00:49:38,760 --> 00:50:01,200 Speaker 1: dot com? Poor Moor p