Speaker 1: Welcome to Criminalia, a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
Speaker 1: with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Thomas Neil Cream graduated with honors on March thirty first,
Speaker 2: eighteen seventy six, from Montreal's McGill Medical School. The address
Speaker 2: given to his class that day was titled the Evils
Speaker 2: of Malpractice in the Medical Profession. A little bit of
Speaker 2: evil foreshadowing, you might say. His thesis had been about
Speaker 2: the effects of chloroform A lot more foreshadowing, as he
Speaker 2: would soon demonstrate just how devastating he could be with
Speaker 2: toxic compounds. Sixteen years later, a mob of onlookers attended
Speaker 2: his execution for murder and extortion outside Newgate Prison in London.
Speaker 2: So let's meet the good doctor. Welcome to Criminalia. I'm
Speaker 2: Mariach Marky.
Speaker 1: And I'm Holly Frye. Thomas Neil Cream was born on
Speaker 1: May twenty seventh, eighteen fifty, the eldest of eight children
Speaker 1: to William and Mary Cream in Glasgow, Scotland. The family
Speaker 1: left Scotland for Canada when Thomas was just four years old,
Speaker 1: and his father became the manager of a shipbuilding and
Speaker 1: lumber firm located in Wolf's Cove near Quebec City, and
Speaker 1: the family prospered. His father had grown a very successful business,
Speaker 1: and Thomas had become accustomed to a wealthy lifestyle that
Speaker 1: included flashy clothing and jewelry and touring about in fancy
Speaker 1: horse drawn carriages. When he attended McGill, he gained a
Speaker 1: reputation among his fellow students as being extravagant, wild, and
Speaker 1: a little bit sleazy. Through photographs and written descriptions of him,
Speaker 1: we know that Thomas looked a lot like what you
Speaker 1: might consider an archetypal villain of Victorian era. He wore
Speaker 1: a top hat and a black silk cape, and he
Speaker 1: had a big mustache that was perfect for twirling.
Speaker 2: Thomas killed his first, well his first proven victims in
Speaker 2: the United States. Additional victims were in England, others in Canada,
Speaker 2: maybe in Scotland. But we're not here to talk about
Speaker 2: the murderer Thomas Neil Cream. We're here to talk about
Speaker 2: his other criminal offense, extortion and blackmail. Thomas was ultimately
Speaker 2: undone when he attempted to frame and blackmail other people
Speaker 2: for his murders.
Speaker 1: Not long after his graduation from medical school, Thomas met
Speaker 1: a woman named Flora Brooks, who was the daughter of
Speaker 1: a prosperous hotel owner in Waterloo, Quebec. When Flora became pregnant,
Speaker 1: Thomas terminated her pregnancy, but that did not go well.
Speaker 1: Flora fell ill, and after learning what had transpired, her
Speaker 1: father tracked down Thomas, forced him back to Waterloo and
Speaker 1: then also forced him, allegedly at gunpoint, to marry Flora.
Speaker 1: But the day after the two were married, Thomas left.
Speaker 1: He moved to London.
Speaker 2: Thomas's story takes place during the Industrial Revolution, which spanned
Speaker 2: from about seventeen sixty to eighteen forty, a period responsible
Speaker 2: for an increase in the standard of living, an increase
Speaker 2: in population, and the emergence of the capitalist economy. And
Speaker 2: we mentioned this specifically because in England there was an
Speaker 2: increase in the demand for doctors to care for those
Speaker 2: living in poverty. Some reports state Thomas planned to study
Speaker 2: surgery at Saint Thomas's Hospital, but failed their entrance requirements.
Speaker 2: He was though accepted by the Royal College of Physicians
Speaker 2: and Surgeons in Edinburgh. In late eighteen seventy eight, he
Speaker 2: returned to Canada, where he set up his practice in London, Ontario.
Speaker 2: He quickly became known as the guide to see a
Speaker 2: terminated pregnancy in a legal act. At that time in Ontario,
Speaker 2: he spent his free time carousing and courting women.
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, back in Quebec, in eighteen seventy seven, his wife
Speaker 1: Flora contracted broncos and she died of what appeared to
Speaker 1: be consumption. Today we would call that tuberculosis. Her doctor, however,
Speaker 1: later stated that he couldn't help but wonder if her
Speaker 1: death had been linked to pills that Thomas had sent her,
Speaker 1: and he admitted that he had always considered that her
Speaker 1: death may have involved foul play. That, of course, though,
Speaker 1: was his opinion in the hindsight.
Speaker 2: About a year after establishing his new practice in Ontario,
Speaker 2: the body of a woman named Kate Gardiner was discovered
Speaker 2: in an outhouse located behind his office building, with a
Speaker 2: bottle of chloroform next to her body. Authorities were suspicious
Speaker 2: about the circumstances of Kate's death, after all, there was
Speaker 2: a bottle of chloroform sitting with her, and they soon
Speaker 2: discovered that she had visited Thomas's office on more than
Speaker 2: one occasion seeking to end a pregnancy. But when questioned,
Speaker 2: the doctor insisted that he had refused her in his
Speaker 2: estimation her death must have been a suicide. Jury disagreed
Speaker 2: with his assessment and ruled that Gardner died from chloroform
Speaker 2: administered by some person unknown. Thomas was not charged with
Speaker 2: her murder. However, suspicions against him grew so strong that
Speaker 2: both his practice and his reputation were ruined. He relocated
Speaker 2: to the United States. Thomas set up a medical practice
Speaker 2: on Chicago's West Side, in a district known for its
Speaker 2: high percentage of sex workers and its poverty stricken neighborhoods.
Speaker 2: Soon word got around to those in the neighborhood and
Speaker 2: to local police that he was the guide to see
Speaker 2: to terminate a pregnancy, also illegal in the United States
Speaker 2: at that time.
Speaker 1: We're going to take a break for a word from
Speaker 1: our sponsors here, and when we're back we will talk
Speaker 1: about Thomas's arrest and time spent at the Illinois State Penitentiary.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Criminalia. Let's talk about the people who
Speaker 2: died under Thomas's care.
Speaker 1: In August of eighteen eighty, a woman named Julia Faulkner
Speaker 1: whose name may have been Mary Anne. That's a little
Speaker 1: bit unclear anyway, she had been under Thomas's care, and
Speaker 1: she died under mysterious circumstances. This time he was arrested
Speaker 1: on charges of murder, but due to lack of evidence,
Speaker 1: he was not convicted. In December of that same year,
Speaker 1: another of his patients, Ellen Stack, died after she took
Speaker 1: medicine that was prescribed by Thomas. It was about a
Speaker 1: month after Ellen's death when Thomas started to engage in
Speaker 1: blackmail and extortion. This was his first go round, and
Speaker 1: in it he attempted to blackmail the pharmacist who had
Speaker 1: compounded Stack's prescription by sending him threatening letters. The pharmacist
Speaker 1: complained to the police, but no charges were ever brought forth.
Speaker 1: Nothing can of this whole thing.
Speaker 2: It was eighteen eighty one when authorities finally had enough
Speaker 2: evidence to arrest and try Thomas. They charged him with
Speaker 2: the murder of a Chicago man named Daniel Stott. Daniel's wife, Julia,
Speaker 2: had been regularly picking up pills from Thomas, who had
Speaker 2: been marketing them as a remedy for epilepsy. She and
Speaker 2: Thomas began an affair, but when Daniel grew suspicious of them,
Speaker 2: Thomas coerced Julia into having her husband take out a
Speaker 2: life insurance policy on himself, and then he sent her
Speaker 2: home with strych nine laced pills instead of his epilepsy remedy.
Speaker 2: Stott died on June fourteenth, eighteen eighty one, within minutes
Speaker 2: of taking those pills, but his death was ultimately considered
Speaker 2: to be from complications of an epileptic seizure, and again
Speaker 2: Thomas picked up his pen. He sent a blackmail letter
Speaker 2: to the coroner accusing the pharmacist who compounded Stott's pills
Speaker 2: of being responsible for the death, and he demanded five
Speaker 2: thousand dollars for his silence. He also threatened to collect
Speaker 2: money on Julia's behalf. When the coroner ignored the letter,
Speaker 2: Thomas went to the district attorney to request the body
Speaker 2: being zoomed. Upon further examination, it was found there was
Speaker 2: enough strychnine in Stott's stomach to kill three people.
Speaker 1: Although he pointed a finger at the pharmacist, it was
Speaker 1: Thomas who was arrested. He was a suspicious character in
Speaker 1: the death, and then Julia told authorities that she suspected
Speaker 1: he had tampered with her husband's medicine. Thomas was charged
Speaker 1: with and found guilty of murder in the second degree,
Speaker 1: and he was sentenced to life at the Illinois State
Speaker 1: Penitentiary and Juliet. He didn't serve a life sentence, though
Speaker 1: not even close. He was released in June of eighteen
Speaker 1: ninety one when Governor Joseph Pfeiffer commuted the sentence. Though
Speaker 1: there isn't really much, if any evidence, it is assumed
Speaker 1: that the governor was bribed and possibly by Thomas's family.
Speaker 1: Returned to Canada very briefly to collect an inheritance of
Speaker 1: sixteen thousand dollars from his father's death. Then he returned
Speaker 1: to England, where he moved to Lambeth Palace Road, in
Speaker 1: an impoverished neighborhood of South London.
Speaker 2: Thomas began referring to himself as Thomas Neil minus the Cream.
Speaker 2: At this time. Almost all reports about him state he
Speaker 2: was addicted to morphine and possibly cocaine, and possibly other
Speaker 2: drugs too. In the first seven months in the Lambeth district,
Speaker 2: he poisoned at least four sex workers, including Matilda Clover, Ellen,
Speaker 2: Nellie Donworth, Alice Marsh and Emma Shrivel. A fifth victim
Speaker 2: named Louise Harvey, had luckily and wisely decided against swallowing
Speaker 2: the strych nine laced pills the good doctor had offered
Speaker 2: to her. Her spidy sense of sorts kicked in and
Speaker 2: it saved her life. She later testified against him in court.
Speaker 2: Reynolds's newspaper reported the exchange between Louise and Thomas went
Speaker 2: as so quote. He took two pills out of his
Speaker 2: waistcoat pocket. They were wrapped in tissue paper and were long,
Speaker 2: rather narrower at one end than the other. It was dark,
Speaker 2: but they seemed to be of light color. He asked
Speaker 2: her to swallow them one by one and not bite them.
Speaker 2: He put them into her right hand. She pretended to
Speaker 2: take them and passed them into her left hand. He
Speaker 2: then asked her to show her right hand, and she
Speaker 2: showed him it was empty. He then asked to see
Speaker 2: the left hand in which the pills were, and she
Speaker 2: threw them away.
Speaker 1: Thomas worked by befriending his victims, and then he would
Speaker 1: offer them medications, supposedly to clear up something like a
Speaker 1: rash or another vague ailment or complaint they had. But
Speaker 1: his remedies were laced with strychnine. It's highly likely that
Speaker 1: he would have avoided detection. Except he could not stop
Speaker 1: scratching the itch. He decided to accuse his neighbor of
Speaker 1: two murders. And here's where he really begins to use
Speaker 1: a distortion along with his killings. Using a false name
Speaker 1: of Malone, he wrote a letter to a prominent English neurologist,
Speaker 1: doctor William Broadbent, claiming to have evidence of the doctor's
Speaker 1: involvement in Matilda Clover's death, and he demanded twenty five
Speaker 1: thousand pounds to keep that information to himself. Doctor Broadbent
Speaker 1: contacted Scotland Yard, who then waited for the mystery blackmailer
Speaker 1: to collect the money. No one ever showed up. But
Speaker 1: Thomas had unwittingly incriminated himself in that letter to Broadbent
Speaker 1: because he had referred to the death of Matilda Clover
Speaker 1: as a murder, despite it having been recorded as death
Speaker 1: due to her excessive alcohol abuse. He had revealed knowledge
Speaker 1: that only the killer could have known, and in that
Speaker 1: instant Scotland Yard knew the person the press had nicknamed
Speaker 1: the Lambeth poisoner was linked to the recent rash of
Speaker 1: blackmail letters.
Speaker 2: Thomas also wrote to the coroner offering to name the
Speaker 2: murder of Nellie Donworth in return for a three hundred
Speaker 2: thousand pound payout. He also attempted to blackmail a WFD Smith,
Speaker 2: owner of W. H. Smith Books, accusing him of Donworth's
Speaker 2: murder and demanding money to keep quiet about it.
Speaker 1: He then kind of went blackmail crazy. He claimed that
Speaker 1: he had incriminating evidence against a Joseph Harper, who was
Speaker 1: a local medical student. He sent an accusatory letter to
Speaker 1: Harper's father, signed William H. Murray, demanding fifteen hundred pounds
Speaker 1: to destroy alleged evidence against his son or he was
Speaker 1: going to share his knowledge with the police. Harper refused. Then,
Speaker 1: under different pseudonyms and once pretending to be a detective,
Speaker 1: Thomas sent letters to the coroner implicating Harper and to
Speaker 1: a Frederick Smith, demanding three thousand pounds to destroy supposed
Speaker 1: evidence against both of them in the murders of the
Speaker 1: four women. A similar letter was sent to Lord Russell,
Speaker 1: a British Liberal Party politician. No blackmail money was ever collected.
Speaker 2: We're going to take a break for word from our sponsors,
Speaker 2: and when we return, we'll talk about Thomas's arrest and
Speaker 2: sentencing and what he may or may not have said
Speaker 2: on the day of his execution.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to criminalia. Now let's talk about how Thomas
Speaker 1: was finally caught and how he may or may not
Speaker 1: have been Jack the Ripper. Yeah, stay tuned with us
Speaker 1: on that one.
Speaker 2: The poisonings were beginning to incite fear among the public,
Speaker 2: and London's Daily News reported quote the police at Scotland
Speaker 2: Yard are still pursuing their inquiries into the recent cases
Speaker 2: of fatal poisoning of women in the neighborhood of Lambeth,
Speaker 2: with a view to establishing a connection between the suspected
Speaker 2: person against whom the police hold a warrant. From the
Speaker 2: accounts which the police have received from various quarters concerning
Speaker 2: this individual, there is every reason to believe that the
Speaker 2: opinion of the detectives is correct, that he is suffering
Speaker 2: from a form of mental derangement which finds exercise and
Speaker 2: a desire to take away life. There is no other
Speaker 2: motive attributable to the cruel poisonings, and as the history
Speaker 2: of the Whitechapel murders shows, the indulgence of this homicidal
Speaker 2: tendency upon women and a defenseless position is not singular
Speaker 2: to the Lambeth poisoner. The Whitechapel murders mentioned were those
Speaker 2: committed by the notoriously unidentified serial killer known as Jack
Speaker 2: the Ripper.
Speaker 1: Now here's the thing about Thomas Neil Kream. He probably
Speaker 1: could have continued his killing streak if he had just
Speaker 1: stayed quiet about his activities. But he didn't. It seems
Speaker 1: like he couldn't. He bragged about his detailed knowledge of
Speaker 1: each killing. He even took former New York Least detective
Speaker 1: John Haynes on a tour of the murder scenes in
Speaker 1: the area. Haines became alarmed at the amount of detail
Speaker 1: that Thomas knew, and he brought his concerns to the
Speaker 1: attention of the police inspector. Thomas also gave a similar
Speaker 1: tour to a mister McIntyre, who turned out to be
Speaker 1: a police sergeant. But Thomas did not know that. McIntyre
Speaker 1: began to surveil the doctor police constable. Comely we think
Speaker 1: he was a constable. He was definitely law enforcement had
Speaker 1: by chance seen a man who fit Thomas's description with
Speaker 1: two of the women on the nights of their deaths.
Speaker 1: He too, started to keep a close eye on him.
Speaker 2: And then, of course there were those letters Thomas wrote
Speaker 2: his letters under false identities in an attempt to cast
Speaker 2: suspicion on other people, innocent people and always doctors or bourgeois,
Speaker 2: and to extort money from anyone who could have in
Speaker 2: some way been a potential suspect in the murders of
Speaker 2: the four women in Lambeth. Think of these as I
Speaker 2: know what you did, pay me not to talk kinds
Speaker 2: of notes. It's the very definition of blackmail, no matter
Speaker 2: that there was no truth in his accusations. Once his
Speaker 2: letters drew attention from Scotland Yard, circumstances finally led to
Speaker 2: his arrest. Thomas was charged with the extortion of two
Speaker 2: London physicians.
Speaker 1: Though there were others.
Speaker 2: When evidence including seven bottles of Strych nine, was found
Speaker 2: at his lodging, he was subsequently arrested and charged with
Speaker 2: the murders of four women and the attempted murder of
Speaker 2: a fifth.
Speaker 1: Thomas's trial took place at London's Central Criminal Court, known
Speaker 1: as the Old Bailey, over the course of five days
Speaker 1: in October of eighteen ninety two. The jury needed only
Speaker 1: twelve minutes to find him guilty of the death of
Speaker 1: Matilda Clover, and with that Justice Henry Hawkins, the presiding
Speaker 1: judge sentenced the doctor to hang, telling the prisoner that
Speaker 1: his deeds could quote be expied only by your death.
Speaker 2: On November fifteenth, eighteen ninety two, Thomas was taken to
Speaker 2: the gallows. A pretty sizable crowd had gathered. Reports estimate
Speaker 2: anywhere between three hundred to five thousand people came to
Speaker 2: the scene of the execution. It wasn't public, though public
Speaker 2: hangings ended in London in eighteen sixty eight. The Toronto
Speaker 2: Globe reported the next day, quote, probably no criminal was
Speaker 2: ever executed in London who had a less pitying mob
Speaker 2: awaiting his execution.
Speaker 1: According to the Courier in argus, quote, the morning was
Speaker 1: dull and wet. By order of the High Sheriff, no
Speaker 1: pressmen were admitted to the scene of the execution. Neil
Speaker 1: appeared half dazed, but he walked and assisted. After the executioner,
Speaker 1: James Billington, drew from his pocket a white cap and
Speaker 1: placed it over Neil's head. He pulled the lever. The
Speaker 1: bolts supporting the drop were drawn, and Neil was launched
Speaker 1: into eternity. So as he fell, Thomas, allegedly, according to
Speaker 1: only Billington, began to say something and it was something
Speaker 1: that sounded like, quote, I am Jack, but he was
Speaker 1: cut off as he fell to his death. Historians have
Speaker 1: theorized that those last words, which Billington insisted were a
Speaker 1: confession that he was Jack the Ripper, were probably nothing
Speaker 1: more than an attempt to take credit for the murders
Speaker 1: of a more famous killer. However, it is even more
Speaker 1: likely that he never said anything at all.
Speaker 2: While the Ripper theory is still holding today among some crowds,
Speaker 2: most following the Ripper's story believed he couldn't have been
Speaker 2: that infamous killer. As Thomas served his prison sentence from
Speaker 2: eighteen eighty one to eighteen ninety one in Juliet, Illinois
Speaker 2: in the United States, and all of Jack the Ripper's
Speaker 2: murders were committed between August thirty first and November ninth,
Speaker 2: eighteen eighty eight. And then there's this theory which we
Speaker 2: felt we really did need to include in his biography.
Speaker 2: Marshall Hall, the lawyer who defended Thomas, stated he believed
Speaker 2: that the doctor had a double and that the two
Speaker 2: used the same name and used each other's terms of
Speaker 2: imprisonment as alibis for each other. I mean, it really
Speaker 2: does seem everyone has a theory about Jack the Ripper
Speaker 2: still today.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, it has launched a thousand books. Would you
Speaker 1: like to head out to the coercion concoction area?
Speaker 2: I certainly would listen.
Speaker 1: This may be very predictable, but I wanted to do
Speaker 1: a creamy drink because of.
Speaker 2: His name dark cream yep, and.
Speaker 1: Because the pills that were mentioned were described as light colored.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to make something that you drink and
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, this tastes like a thing, and then
Speaker 1: a second later you go, wait, does this have that
Speaker 1: other thing in it? Which is exactly what happened when
Speaker 1: I tested on my adorable guinea pig's mouth. This is
Speaker 1: called Doctor Cream's Elixir. I almost called it criminal fanfic
Speaker 1: because as he made up so much stuff about other people.
Speaker 1: And this is one where I really want you to
Speaker 1: stick with me, because you might go this doesn't go together,
Speaker 1: but I promise you it does something cool. We're gonna
Speaker 1: start out with a half ounce of a simple syrup
Speaker 1: or a vanilla syrup. I always like a vanilla for
Speaker 1: something like this. Two tablespoons of egg white, and this
Speaker 1: is where you're gonna be like holly, two ounces of
Speaker 1: pumpkin creamer. Now, I literally bought a creamer from the
Speaker 1: grocery store, like one of those that you put in
Speaker 1: your coffee. If you want to be fancy and make
Speaker 1: your own homemade pumpkin creamer, you can do that by
Speaker 1: combining some pureade pumpkin and some heavy cream and a
Speaker 1: little bit of sugar and whatnot. But I just bought
Speaker 1: it off the shell. Food is great. Here's where again
Speaker 1: it's gonna get weirder. You're gonna add to this an
Speaker 1: ounce of white rum and then an ounce of absinthe.
Speaker 1: Now I know your brain is going does go together?
Speaker 1: It actually does?
Speaker 2: What and then of course it had this moment.
Speaker 1: Right yeah, licorice pumpkin. I'm telling you you're gonna shake
Speaker 1: this like the Dickens. Now, this isn't the case where,
Speaker 1: you know, often when you have egg white in a drink,
Speaker 1: you want to give that a hard, dry shake on
Speaker 1: its own without ice in it. You don't need to
Speaker 1: do that here because it's not the star of the show.
Speaker 1: You're not trying to like make it that beautiful frothy
Speaker 1: top that sits on a cocktail. You're just giving a
Speaker 1: little more body to the whole thing. So you don't
Speaker 1: have to do that step if you want to go crazy,
Speaker 1: but you don't have to. But you are gonna give
Speaker 1: this a nice heavy shake. You're gonna strain it over
Speaker 1: fresh ice into like a rock's glass, and then it
Speaker 1: looks like a yummy, delicious winter time creamy drink, and
Speaker 1: it is. You can garnish it with pumpkin pie, spice
Speaker 1: or whatever. But what's interesting is you sip it and
Speaker 1: it all goes together. It doesn't fight with each other
Speaker 1: at all, but the finish, you get that licorice note
Speaker 1: and go. Is there absent than this creamy? Which? There
Speaker 1: are creamy drinks with absinth, right, there's a drink called
Speaker 1: an absence sweee, which we may have referenced on the
Speaker 1: show before, which I love. But I just thought combining
Speaker 1: it with pumpkin would do something interesting. And it did
Speaker 1: nothing dangerous to you unless you're allergic to something in here,
Speaker 1: but it does it echoes that whole I thought I
Speaker 1: was getting medicine, and then it was something else. But
Speaker 1: this one is a delightful surprise and not an evil one.
Speaker 1: If you would like to make the mocktail, obviously you
Speaker 1: can use your cream or your egg white and your syrup,
Speaker 1: just as in lieu of white rum and absinthe. What
Speaker 1: I would do is either make an anis or a
Speaker 1: licorice tea and use that in the two ounce amount.
Speaker 1: Or you can do like an anisset syrup and use
Speaker 1: a little like a half ounce of that and then
Speaker 1: do like a really softy like a camo meal or
Speaker 1: something to fill it out. And then you're gonna have
Speaker 1: a yummy doctor cream's elixir like patent medicine, but this
Speaker 1: one will not hurt you in any way. That is
Speaker 1: our yummy drink for the week. I drank it, and
Speaker 1: then I kept drinking it.
Speaker 2: And it was yummy.
Speaker 1: I really really liked this one. I was surprised because
Speaker 1: even I was like, am I about to really miss
Speaker 1: this up? Am I gonna have to make a totally
Speaker 1: different drink, And in fact came out great pumpkin creamer. Listen,
Speaker 1: if you want to start playing with creamers in your
Speaker 1: cream based drinks. If you don't mind the pre made stuff,
Speaker 1: the world is your oyster. They come in all the flavors.
Speaker 1: Now you can chocolate chip creamer if you want. You
Speaker 1: can get pepper mentally popular this time of year. Pumpkin
Speaker 1: pie is really popular this time of year. The sweet
Speaker 1: Italian cream I think would do some really yummy stuff
Speaker 1: and cocktails. Go forth and play. We are so thankful
Speaker 1: that you spent this time with us as we played
Speaker 1: around with history and talked about some grizzly things, but
Speaker 1: also had a yummy drink. We hope you join us
Speaker 1: again next week for more tales of criminals and some
Speaker 1: drinks inspired by them. Criminalia is a production of Shondaland
Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio,
Speaker 1: please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.