1 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. I make it a practice, 2 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: my wife and I do, at least when we can 3 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: save our pennies enough and we go. Trust me, before 4 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: I say this, I want you to think I'm some 5 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: kind of rich guy because I ain't. Save our pennies 6 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: and pack a backpack both of us, and we hop 7 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:37,959 Speaker 1: on the cheapest flight we can find and we go 8 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: to Great Britain, and we've done this a couple of times, 9 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: and stay very, very cheap and stay in fancy hotels. Hey, 10 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: if you're in America, you can always stay in some 11 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: big chain, right, So we try to stay in, you know, 12 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: in hostels for families or maybe in an inn that's 13 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: outside of town and take public transit in. And one 14 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: of the things that we were prone to do while 15 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: we're overseas is go visit art museums. Probably one of 16 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: the most fantastic experiences I've ever had was the National 17 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: Museum in London. Some of the most beautiful artistry I've 18 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: ever seen, and also particularly in Cardiff, Wales. Went down 19 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: there and went to the National Art Museum and they 20 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: had beautiful Monet paintings and they're all originals there and 21 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: you walk through these things and just the I don't know, 22 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: you can just stare at them for hours. And the 23 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: old portraits too, the ones that go back hundreds and 24 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: hundreds of years, and it's amazing what an artist can 25 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: do with paint. It certainly is now. In forensics, we 26 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: study paint. We study paint as it applies to motor 27 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: vehicle accidents because you know, you might not know this, 28 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: but when a person gets hit by car and it's 29 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: a hit and run, sometimes the car will deposit paint 30 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: on the deceased body. Today, I'm going to chat with 31 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: you guys about a case that involves paint, but it 32 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: involves paint in a manner in which I have never 33 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: experience in all of my years as a medical legal 34 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: death investigator. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks 35 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: Dave Mack. Good to be back with you, my friend. 36 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: I have to tell you I came across this case 37 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: because actually I've had two television channels that networks that 38 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: have wanted me to cover it, and I was not 39 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: aware of it. There's so many things that come across 40 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,679 Speaker 1: my desk in media and they are these things get 41 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: put up on the shelf in my brain somewhere, I 42 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: don't know where. I just I forget about them. I 43 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: didn't remember hearing about this case. But what caught my 44 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: attention about this case is that this is actually involving 45 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: a person and dig this man that's going up on 46 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: trial for not one not the second time, but not 47 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: the third time, but the fourth time. You talk about 48 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: an outlier. This is just not something you commonly see. 49 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 2: Doesn't happen like this. The bottom line always the bottom line. 50 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: Why are there four trials? You always can have one 51 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 2: you appeal it. There was a problem with this or 52 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 2: that piece of evidence. But in this particular case, there 53 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: was actually a conviction at trial that was overthrown by 54 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 2: the state Supreme Judicial Court over erroneous evidence, which plays 55 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 2: into your paint discussion earlier. This case, also, Joe, it's 56 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 2: the first time in Massachusetts where a wife has been 57 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 2: charged with the death of their wife, first time for everything. 58 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 2: This is the first time this has happened. And to 59 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: be honest with you, when you read all the reports 60 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 2: of this couple that we're dealing with today, Golly g 61 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 2: Whisby sounds like just about every other married couple that 62 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 2: ends up fighting over money and jealousy and childcare, the 63 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 2: normal aggravations of everyone else. So the one thing that 64 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 2: makes it different actually makes them the same as everybody else. 65 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: It's funny how that works. 66 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. And I think that that applies to 67 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: relationships across the board. When you have two people that 68 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: are in an intimate relationship, they're sharing Look, they're sharing 69 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: life there in a household together, You've got all of 70 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: the stressors on you that happened to everybody, So nothing 71 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: should set them apart. I would assume that from a 72 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: news media standpoint, this is something that the news media 73 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: would latch onto. But at the end of the day, 74 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: you got two human beings and we're flawed and we're 75 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: prone to violence. I mean, we truly are. That's it. 76 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: As a bottom line, we all have our measures of it. 77 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: You can push us to limits, you can get crossways 78 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: with people, as they say, and in this case, this 79 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: is apparently happened. 80 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: And that's what happened in the couplehood of Anna Marie 81 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 2: Cochrane Rentala and her wife Kara Rentala. They had been 82 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 2: together for several years before they actually got married. They 83 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 2: got married in two thousand and seven. They adopted a 84 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: girl toddler or baby at the time, Brianna. But this 85 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 2: was a very volatile couple, Joe Scott. There was a 86 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 2: lot of jealousy, there were a lot of interpersonal relationship issues, 87 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 2: a lot of debt. They worked long hours, very stressful, 88 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: and both of them. When you get down to the 89 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 2: nitty gritty of what actually transpired and why we are 90 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 2: now heading into a fourth trial. Two hung juries, one 91 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 2: conviction on erroneous evidence or the judge determined to be 92 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 2: bad evidence, and now a fourth time. Let me give 93 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: you the description. Let's just start there. Here's the description 94 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 2: from the one on trial versus Anna Maria's the victim. 95 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 2: Kara is the accused. Kara claims that she and Brianna 96 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 2: went out to run some errands during the course of 97 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: the day. They've been gone for several hours. They get 98 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 2: home around seven o'clock at night. When they arrive in 99 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 2: the house, Brianna at this times of toddler, she's got 100 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 2: her in her arms. They've got some bags. She sets 101 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 2: the bags down, but she sees our door is open 102 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 2: towards the basement. Down the stairs, she sees Anna Marie's feet. 103 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 2: She doesn't see her whole body. She sees her feet. 104 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 2: That's enough for Kara to grab Brianna and the dog 105 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: and go next door and say, hey, would you mind 106 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: watching Brianna and our dog for lo while? And by 107 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 2: the way, call nine one and send them to my house. 108 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 2: Right now, She's doing all this based on nothing but 109 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 2: seeing her wife's feet from the top of the stairs. 110 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 2: She's at the top stairs, her wife is at the 111 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 2: bottom of the basement. All she sees their feet, they're 112 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 2: laying down when police arrived. Joe Scott Morgan the description 113 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: given by first responders. When they arrived at the house, 114 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 2: they walked downstairs to the basement and they were confronted 115 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 2: with a bizarre scene. Anna Marie is laying base up 116 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 2: across the lap of Kara in the basement, and there's 117 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 2: paint and blood everywhere. They said that it was the 118 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 2: weirdest scene because there's paint, blood and the wailing woman 119 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 2: on the concrete floor cradling her wife's corpse. 120 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of amazing. I've had cases over the 121 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: course of my career, Dave, where you have individuals that 122 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: fall down sets of staircases, and you do have multiple trauma. 123 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: But here's the rub. Your body is interacting with the 124 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: forces of gravity as you are being pulled down the 125 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: staircase by gravity, you're free falling and you don't impact 126 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: many times deep. Now listen, taller or the longer the staircase, 127 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: the bigger the opportunity is that you're going to hammer 128 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: into multiple points contact. But with most homes it essentially 129 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: ascends to the floor above and you're not going to 130 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: do much more. I don't think that these people lived 131 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: in some grand palace where there's a main staircase that 132 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: leads down to the basement where you're falling upon foot 133 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: and rolling over like some kind of movie set. So 134 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: what you would expect to see are like perhaps some bruising, 135 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: and it will be specifically concentrated on the body in 136 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: particular areas. Remember I use the term concentrated. You're not 137 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: going to have wildly dispersed injuries all over the body. 138 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: You're going to have perhaps if you hit the back 139 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: of your head, you'll have a large contusion on the 140 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: back of your head. You can bust your chin, for instance. 141 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: You can bruise your shoulder, your hip, a knee. Perhaps 142 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: you can go into the wall and fracture a rib 143 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: maybe you hit the handrail. That's going to be the extent, Dave. 144 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: From my understanding, this victim had in excess of twenty 145 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: different bruises on her body. And you know what, that 146 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: doesn't even account for the trauma that she sustained to 147 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: both her scalp and her neck. And let me tell 148 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: you something, when you take a fall and you're looking 149 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: at blunt force trauma in areas of impact, the neck 150 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: is not the first place you look. You know, David 151 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: is mentioned earlier in our conversation here. I don't recall 152 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 1: ever working a case where a body is just super 153 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: saturated and paint like being put forward here. But there 154 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: was something else that kind of caught my eye with 155 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: this case. One of the reports stated that as this 156 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: victim is being cradled in the lap of her wife, 157 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 1: the first responders noted that the body was rigid and stiff. 158 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 1: What's really intriguing is that you're talking about an EMT, Dave. 159 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: EMTs roll out on cases all the time. They roll 160 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 1: out on cases where people have been found dead, and 161 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: then they call the medical examiner after the EMT has 162 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: been there. And one of the things that you assess 163 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: in death there are what are referred to as the 164 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: cardinal signs of death. And one of the cardinal signs 165 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: of death, I mean you have non responsiveness to painful stimuli, 166 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: signs obviously of decomposition, but one of the things that 167 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: you look for, and as one of the cardinal signs 168 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: is rigidity, rigidity, development of postmortem lividity to settling a blood, 169 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: cool to the touch, that sort of thing. And here, 170 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this is glaring. I mean, I can 171 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: only imagine what was going through maybe the EMT's minds 172 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 1: if they know this person that is an EMT and 173 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:14,839 Speaker 1: they're thinking, how long have you been here? 174 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 2: That was the first thing they all were going, Wait 175 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 2: a minute, they know who they're dealing with. These women 176 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 2: were involved as paramedics locally. That's a pretty close knit group. 177 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 2: From one group to the next. They do talk and 178 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 2: they know one another. 179 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: They're like, cops, actually there, you don't you do, but 180 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 1: you don't. You cannot really get into their world because 181 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: of the things they see and God blessed paramedic. I 182 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: love them. I've had them save my life, but they 183 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: are no one can really identify with the world that 184 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: they in. Dwell, it's a different kind of life. 185 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 2: And that's where this comes from, because they were shocked. 186 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 2: I had a question for you, and I want to 187 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 2: let me just share so everybody understands what they saw 188 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 2: when you mentioned the rigidk When they get down, they 189 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 2: see the victim, Anna Marie, her lifeless body face up 190 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 2: across Kara's lap. Kara's hysterical, she's going overboard here, and 191 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 2: Anna Marie's eyes were open, her arms were locked in 192 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: a quote unquote hands up position, and her body was 193 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 2: so stiff that it took two first responders to pry 194 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 2: her off her hysterical wife. Here's what they actually said, 195 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 2: though direct quote. Now, her entire body moved as one unit, 196 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 2: like a board. We're talking about. You call this riger mortis. 197 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: I've always heard it called rigor mortis. What is the 198 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 2: difference is there? 199 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: There's not. It's just it's a matter of how you 200 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: pronounce it, rigor riger tomato, tomato, And it all depends 201 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: on where you were trained. 202 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 2: How long does it take for riga mortis to set 203 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:50,199 Speaker 2: in like this. 204 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: It's a gradual event. And let me dispel a few 205 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: rumors here. When you begin to think about rigidity in 206 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: a body, people will say, well, it starts in the 207 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: small muscles of the face and then kind of proceeds outward. 208 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: That's not the case. It starts in all the muscle 209 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: groups at one time. You just first appreciated in the 210 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: tiny muscle. So folks may not have heard about this before, 211 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: but you know you can get rigidity in the muscles 212 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: of the eyelids. It happens in the jaw facial muscles, 213 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: and then it kind of extends out. You'll get it 214 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: in the shoulders, elbows, fingers. One of the bigger groups 215 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: of muscles that it is last appreciated in are going 216 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: to be kind of these real robust muscles that you 217 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: have in the upper leg, like your quads and your 218 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: buttocks and that sort of thing. So it's taking time 219 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: to happen, and the process that it's going through is 220 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: I won't get too far off into the weeds and 221 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: get too sciencey with you, but in life, we have 222 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: the cycle that we study in school that's referred to 223 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 1: as the crib cycle, and it's a cellular respiration is 224 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: essentially what it is. And just keep in mind that 225 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: as the creb cycle spins, it creates these little balls 226 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: of energy called atp Well when it ceases, you begin 227 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: to create a DP, and ADP produces something that everybody's 228 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: familiar with. As a matter of fact, let me ask 229 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: you this question if you have it, Dave, If you 230 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: haven't worked out in a while, and you decide you're 231 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: gonna go get on the bench press or whatever, and 232 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: maybe you're gonna do kettlebells and you begin lifting, and man, 233 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 1: you really put yourself through a workout other than close 234 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: to death. How are you going to feel the next morning? 235 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 2: You're going to be stiff and sorry, I know that 236 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 2: you did it well. 237 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: Talany'll help you, it probably will, but you know what 238 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: will happen even without the talanol. It will begin to recede. 239 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: And the reason it recedes is that you have what's 240 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: referred to as a lactic acid build up. This is 241 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: as close as you will ever feel in life as 242 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: to what it feels like when Roger Mortis sets into 243 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: a body. Now, you can tear a muscle, and that's 244 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: something different. But I'm just talking about the stiffness and 245 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: the joints. That's lactic acid. But the difference between us 246 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: and the dead is that we still have metabolic activity 247 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: going on, so we can process that lactic acid. They 248 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: can't it, their bodies can't. It has to dissipate over 249 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: period of time, and that's how we measure rigidity. So 250 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: within about an hour to four hours deep in there's 251 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: some factors here, you will begin to see some stiffening, 252 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: but it will not be fully developed. You're still looking 253 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: at a window that and none of the science is 254 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: perfectly exact, and I can see how this might be 255 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: trouble for them in court, but you're looking at a 256 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: window of maybe, and this is very broad. Sometimes six 257 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: to twelve hours before you have full development. Some people 258 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: will push it even further out. A lot of it 259 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: is dependent upon environmental temperature and then what's going on 260 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: internally with the person. Heat speeds up the reaction, So 261 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: the hotter it is, the higher the chance that rigidity 262 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: will set in. As a matter of fact, if you 263 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: have a guy, say, for instance, that is running from 264 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: the police and he's got meth on board, and the 265 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: police shoot him and kill him on the spot, rigidity 266 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: will set in quicker with that guy, as opposed to 267 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: a grandma who's essentially in stasis, that's been laying in 268 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: the bed dies overnight in her sleep. It's cool to 269 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: the touch when you touch her, but her her limbs 270 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: are still flaccid because she doesn't have the same level 271 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: of metabolic activity. And so that's one of the little 272 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: cues along the way that we look for to kind 273 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: of gauge. And I can only imagine when these folks 274 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: looked at this body being cradled by this person, and 275 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: what was kind of fascinating. The way they describe it 276 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: is they say she was in a hands up position. 277 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: Now hands up means that maybe I'm surrendering, maybe worshiping God, 278 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: whatever the case might be. But your hands are up, 279 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: it's not extended, they're up above the head. You know 280 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: what that tells me, Dave, that when you see that 281 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: position and the hands are up above the head, one 282 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: of two things happened. Either that person died flat on 283 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: their back with her hands above their head already, or 284 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: they were face down hands extended out in front of 285 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: them and they were being choked from the rear. So 286 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: you could perhaps be choked from the front or took 287 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: from the rear, but your arms are up and extended, okay. 288 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 2: And her body, according to Kara, that her body was 289 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 2: laying flat, face down, and that Kara claims that when 290 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 2: she saw Anna Marie, that she went down to cradle 291 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 2: her body and she turned her over and that's how 292 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 2: she was face up. But I've seen people love on 293 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 2: somebody who had passed away in the moments right after. 294 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 2: That's a given. You care about them deeply. You know 295 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: they're gone, but you just can't let go yet. I 296 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 2: have never seen anybody cradle a stiff corpse. It's like 297 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 2: a mannequin. I've never seen anybody that loved somebody that 298 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 2: would want that attachment, because we all want the attachment 299 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 2: to their life. And that just shocks me right there. 300 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 2: The hands up, that's another one. But she's so stiff 301 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 2: that they're moving her like a cartoon, And I'm thinking, 302 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 2: how did she get her turned over? Because according to 303 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 2: the according of reports from police, Anna Marie was well 304 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 2: over two hundred pounds. She was not a small lady. 305 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 2: And it took two men, two grown men, to get 306 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 2: Anna Marie's body off of Kara. 307 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it did. And here's another piece. When the EMT's 308 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: the first responders actually are doing their assessment, they mentioned 309 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: that they had to go through several steps in order 310 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: to what referred to in the Morgue as breaking rigger, 311 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: which means that you have to fight against the rigidity 312 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: in order to loosen up the joints so that you 313 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: can assess them. You know, maybe they think that she's 314 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 1: had a seizure. I don't know. I can't imagine as 315 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: a practitioner, an EMS practitioner, what you're thinking, because you 316 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 1: know your job is to save life. So you're looking 317 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: for a place you can put in an IV line. 318 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: You're trying to assess if there's any kind of trauma 319 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: that you can kind of stem bleeding from. You're looking 320 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: to try to stabilize them. Look, you've got a person 321 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: that is apparently found deceased at the bottom of a staircase. 322 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:09,959 Speaker 1: And one of the things that really stands out is 323 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: when you think about this, you're thinking about a cerebral 324 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: spinal injury. So they're taught from Jump Street, hey, look, 325 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: you've got to stabilize that neck. You've got to do 326 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 1: whatever you can, and so they're going through all of 327 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: these calculations in their mind. But then at some point 328 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: in time they have this reality check where they look 329 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: and they say, she's literally stiff as a board. In 330 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: a death investigation, it is not that one thing. It 331 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: is the sum total of all things considered that you 332 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: discover at a scene, back at the morgue, through interview 333 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 1: of subjects and for the police interrogation, it's that sum total. 334 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 1: But in the world of science that myself and my 335 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: colleagues in habit, we're trying to determine, Dave, what is 336 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: it that the body can tell us about what has happened? 337 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: And one of the biggest questions that you always get 338 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: when you go out to the scene as a medical 339 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: legal death investigator from police officers. They'll look at us 340 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: and they'll say how long, Because if they can establish 341 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: how long relative to when life ceased, that is the 342 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: beginning of the trail for them to establish a timeline. Hey, 343 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: there's even a show out there that's named forty eight hours. 344 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 1: It's one of the most popular television shows anywhere. And 345 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 1: there's a reason forty eight hours is very important, and 346 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: in my world it's certainly important. Time is the currency 347 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: in which we work in all right, Joe. 348 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: When they got there, when first responders got there, once 349 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 2: they realized that the person is dead, they're making mental 350 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 2: notes about everything there, all the paint and blood. I 351 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 2: was looking over that because they're trying to determine where 352 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 2: the blood was coming from, right, and they noticed that bruises. 353 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 2: I got a question about the bruises too, But they 354 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 2: noticed a number of lacerations on her scalp and blood 355 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 2: coming from those. I guess, But does a lot of 356 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 2: blood come that way? And what it mixed with the paint? 357 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 2: But other than that, the bruises. How long does it 358 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: take for bruises to show up on a body if 359 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 2: the person's dead. 360 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: Oh wow, Yeah, that's a fascinating question. And bruises. First off, 361 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: let me kind of dispel this. Dead bodies don't bruise. 362 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: So any kind of contusion, which is a fancy word 363 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 1: for a bruise, a contusion, it has to arise in 364 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: an anti mortem state. That means before death. And so 365 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 1: if you've got a fight that's going on when an 366 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: individual is sustaining blunt force trauma, because that's where bruises 367 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: come from. Bruises result from the impact of being struck 368 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: by something. It can be a baseball bat, it can 369 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: be in a car accident, or it can be a 370 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,719 Speaker 1: fist or a foot or a Headbut when that impact occurs, 371 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: those little capillary beds just beneath the skin are being ruptured, 372 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: plain and simple, that's what's happening. But you're not breaking 373 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: skin with a bruise. As they're being ruptured, the blood 374 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: seeps out into what's referred to as the interstitial tissue, 375 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: and so that's those areas that surround the vessels and 376 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: that's what creates the bruise well as you know, as 377 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,959 Speaker 1: any person in the sound of my voice knows, And 378 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: once you have a bruise, it changes color over period time. 379 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: That's another way that we try to tell the history 380 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 1: or tell the story of what happens. So if you've 381 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: got a bruise that is red, that means that that's 382 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: an immediate event. Once it goes from black to blue 383 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: or blue to black, then you're talking about maybe a 384 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: day up to four days. And then it goes I think, 385 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: I know I'm going to get this wrong. Then it 386 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,919 Speaker 1: goes to green, then it gets to that nasty yellow 387 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: color that we all see, and then it's gone. And actually, 388 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: and this is one of the things we use when 389 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: we're trying to assess child abuse cases because you can 390 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: have these different colors all over the bodies, and so 391 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: contusions are very important as to what we do. But 392 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 1: once that contusion is there, and it can be just 393 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: immediately prior to death, it's going to be there. There's 394 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: no eradicating it. Even when a body is prepared at 395 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: the mortuary, the bruise doesn't go away. They have to 396 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: put makeup over it because they're infusing the vessels, they're 397 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: not infusing the interstitial tissue, so you have to cover 398 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 1: it with makeup or whatever it is that the morticians do. 399 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: So that's very important. And for every contusion that you have, 400 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: there is a physical explanation as to why it arose, 401 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: and that means that that's a direct result of impact. 402 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: Now you mentioned that there were lacerations that were on 403 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: the head. Now, lacerations also come about as a result 404 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: of blood forced trauma. It's just that there's more force 405 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 1: required my path part from my friends in therapeutic medicine 406 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: in this area, they will refer commonly, particularly in the 407 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: emergency room. Don't be mad at me for saying this, 408 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: They refer to everything as a laceration, and everything is 409 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: not a laceration for us. We have lacerations those arise 410 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 1: from blunt force trauma, and then you have sharp force 411 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: injuries which are in sized areas. Blunt force trauma generates lacerations, 412 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: so one of the things you look for is something 413 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: called tissue bridging, and they're irregular, they're very jagged, thank Frankenstein. 414 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: And so if you're struck in the head and it 415 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: creates this jagged injury, when you see that gaping wound, 416 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: you know that it's not an incized area because a 417 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: mild blade hasn't been taken to it. You've got these 418 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: little bits of tissue. If you've ever handled something like 419 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: a piece of meat or something that you're eating and 420 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: you pull it apart, the tissue gets real string. It's 421 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: the same principle with elaceration. I'll have these real they're 422 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: called tissue bridges, and you can differentiate between an incized 423 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,199 Speaker 1: area and e laceration because it's connected. It's not a 424 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: clean slice, and you've got multiple of these. But for 425 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: every laceration, every contusion, you have to have a point 426 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: of impact. They don't just magically appear. The wind doesn't 427 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 1: create them. So it has to be a strike, it 428 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: has to be a fall, and you're kind of limited. 429 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: If you're talking about all of these injuries, which there 430 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: were a plethora of them all over her. If you're 431 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: trying to say that this was merely caused by a 432 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: fall from even the top end of the staircase, maybe 433 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: if she fell down two hundred steps, you might have 434 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: a chance at seeing a contusion on multiple areas of 435 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: the body. But just leading down to the basement, it's 436 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: a horrible thing to happen. I've fallen downstairs. You've probably 437 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: fallen downstairs, Dave, But you're not going to generate this 438 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: number of injuries without a direct strike. 439 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 2: I have fallen down basement stairs, but you tend to 440 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 2: slip on those. As an adult, we don't go into 441 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 2: over end. Children do that, but as adults we tend 442 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 2: to slip and our feet go out and we go 443 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 2: on our butt all the way down, and that hurts. 444 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 2: But I know that I've been accused of sitting on 445 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: my brain sometimes, but very rarely have I landed on 446 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 2: my button, torn a hold in my head. Got other 447 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 2: things we got to get do on this, because we've 448 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 2: got paint everywhere, and by the way, all the bruising, 449 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 2: all the contusions, all the blood, none of that had 450 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 2: anything to do with the cause of death. Joe, You've 451 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 2: got blood everywhere and paint. Why are we having paint 452 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,959 Speaker 2: and blood together? I'm really confused here. Can paramedics do 453 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 2: they know how to set up a crime scene so 454 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 2: that it looks like somebody fell down the stairs? Oh? 455 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: I suit you're saying, yeah, I mean, could. 456 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 2: A paramedic come up with this as a reasonable idea? 457 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 2: Because well, by the way, need to throw this out there. Kara, 458 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 2: while the first responders are there, suggests that Anna Marie 459 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 2: has fallen down the stairs. But while they're still cleaning 460 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 2: the body, I know, I'm the first suspect. Well, falling 461 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 2: down the stairs is not crime, so you would not 462 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 2: be a suspect in that, So throwing out the idea 463 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 2: that it's a criminal act when you just said she 464 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,959 Speaker 2: fell down the stairs and again remember her story. She 465 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 2: had been gone all day, comes home with their toddler, Brianna. 466 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 2: At the bottom of the stairs, she sees Anna Marie 467 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 2: feet laying in the basement in paint and leaves on 468 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: that note. That's what we know. That's what she said. 469 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 2: But then the crime scene itself, the body itself. Joe, 470 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 2: you've already told us all the things that have happened 471 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: with that body. The fact that riger Mortiz has not 472 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 2: just set in, but she's fixed like a board. And 473 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 2: we've got twenty three bruises. We've got lacerations of the head. 474 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 2: We pointed out by the way, I didn't know that 475 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 2: about it. I really did think that all. When they 476 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 2: said laceration, I kind of thought it was like a 477 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 2: cut with a knife. 478 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: Not in a medical legal sense. So I always take 479 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: exception with that. I try not to be a know 480 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: at all. But if somebody says laceration and it's a cut, no, 481 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 1: that's not a laceration. 482 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 2: See you're looking at this crime scene, Joe, what is 483 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 2: sticking out to you on the body? What is sticking 484 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 2: out to you there with the Do you see these 485 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 2: all as factors working towards the death of Ana Marie? 486 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: I think a lot of it would have to be 487 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: kind of like blood stained pattern analysis. To a certain degree. 488 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: Blood is viscous. It's thicker than water. We've heard that 489 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: term before, haven't we, But in the little sense that's 490 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: why they say that it is thicker than water, it's 491 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: more viscous. Paint is even more viscous than blood. So 492 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: my understanding is that there was an open paint container down. 493 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 2: There, five gallon. It was a five gallon container. 494 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, a five gallon one. And so if what you're 495 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 1: putting forth to me is that she falls while toting 496 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 1: this five gallon container, you're going to have a very 497 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: dynamic event depended upon if you can figure out where 498 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 1: the paint can or paint container actually strikes first, and 499 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 1: if it is kind of spinning in the air and 500 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: it's kind of literally you know, we use this term 501 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,959 Speaker 1: in bloodstain analysis called cast off, where you have blood 502 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: issuing off the tip of a blade or a bludgeon 503 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: or something like that. We actually refer to it as 504 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: painting the walls of blood. Is it that kind of 505 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: dynamic thing or is the dynamicism of the blood limited 506 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: to kind of a slow pore, And that can be 507 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: assessed because if you have blood that is thrown off 508 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: of a bludgeon, it's going to have kind of an 509 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: arcing appearance to it. Some of it will be the 510 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: droplets will be very fine, and the higher the velocity, 511 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: the finer the drops. But with this, if you're talking 512 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: about paint, let's just say, for instance, someone did take 513 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,239 Speaker 1: paint and dump it on her body, literally pouring it 514 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: on her body. The dynamics of the flow the poor, 515 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: if you will, would need to be examined. I'm really 516 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: wondering if they've done that. And given the fact that 517 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: she is literally covered in paint, I'd like to know 518 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: how closely the clothing was examined by the criminalists back 519 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: at the crime lab. Now, her body would have been 520 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: transported from the scene to the emmy's office, and once 521 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: she had gotten to the emmy's office, she would have 522 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: been undressed. They would not It's not like, hey, take 523 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: these clothes and throw them in the washing machine. We're 524 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: going to get the paint out. No no, no, no, no, no, that's 525 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: not what's happening. Those clothes individually. We're talking about shirt, panties, 526 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: bra socks, pants, shoes, individually, packaged and taken to the 527 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: crime lab for them to analyze. And if a bloodstained 528 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: person could come in and analyze that paint and give 529 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: us an idea about the dynamics of the spreading of 530 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: the paint over the body, that would be a fascinating 531 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: issue with this. But one of the things I think 532 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: the third trial, which was mind blowing to me, the 533 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: prosecution actually brought in somebody that they claimed was an 534 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: expert in determining at what rate paint dries, and this 535 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: smacked of I just have to say this the Kaylee 536 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: Anthony homicide case. And this is why because they brought 537 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: in this fellow who testified to the smell of human decomposition, 538 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: and that so called science was thrown out the door. 539 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: And in this case, this has been overturned because the 540 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: appellate court ruled that there's not enough science to back 541 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: this up, Like you have to be able to test 542 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: this thing outside the court. You know how much how 543 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: many papers have been written about this. It does it 544 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: is scientifically valid. In this particular case, they couldn't validate it. 545 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: And that's that's the reason. The third time they didn't 546 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: get a conviction. Well they got a conviction, but it 547 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: was overturned based upon this one expert that came in 548 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: to testify about the drying rates of paint. 549 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 2: And what was fascinating to me, Joe about the paint 550 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 2: just throwing this out there, because I actually went through 551 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 2: this one is getting white paint. Sometimes when you put 552 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 2: white paint on a wall or a ceiling in particular, 553 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 2: it has a pink tint to it. And the reason 554 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 2: for that is because if you're painting a room white 555 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 2: and you're painting on top of white, you don't know 556 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 2: where you've been, and so it comes out out of 557 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 2: the camp and it's kind of pink when you're putting 558 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 2: it on the wall, but it dries white. And that 559 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 2: was one of the things here, because you're going, well, 560 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 2: there is either so much blood that it tinted the 561 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 2: paint red, or it had been spilled recently to cover 562 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,479 Speaker 2: up a scene, and it was still pink. An amazing thing, 563 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,239 Speaker 2: but you go, you're right about how jacked up it 564 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,239 Speaker 2: was when you don't have the science backing you up 565 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 2: and you come up with the night you and I 566 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 2: could have formulated a better opinion, Joe. 567 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: I think so, Dave. And the real interesting thing about 568 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: this the blood evidence that they had. They had a 569 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: couple of spots that they could not necessarily tie back 570 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: to the victim, and so you've got this commingling of 571 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,959 Speaker 1: this paint and it puts forth quite the conundrum. If 572 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: you've got blood, human blood that is in fact commingled 573 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: with paint, how can you go about and separate that 574 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: and does it compromise the integrity those things that we 575 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: would use to identify the blood and then type the 576 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: blood and even do a DNA analysis of the blood. 577 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: We know that she has got fatal injuries, and this 578 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: is the way the me had ruled. And this is 579 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: what really kind of brings us home to me. She's 580 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: got what appear to be circumferential contusions around her neck, 581 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: which they consider to be consistent with an aseixial death, 582 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: almost like a manual strangulation. So as the neck is 583 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:19,239 Speaker 1: being squeezed, you get these focal areas of hemorrhage. And 584 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: she's got PATIKII, which means that the little vessels in 585 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: her eyes, maybe around her lips and in her nose 586 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: even have burst. And that's because of this kind of 587 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: facial pressure in the blood vessels and they have exploded. 588 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: And so that's when we see this, and that again 589 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: is another fast You don't get this from falling down 590 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: a staircase. 591 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 2: That's what I was going to ask you to If 592 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 2: you've got what does the blood mean, if the cause 593 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 2: of death is strangulation, what do the bruises mean if 594 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,479 Speaker 2: the cause of death is strangulation. If the cause of 595 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 2: death is strangulation, then she could have been playing in 596 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 2: a football game that afternoon without a helmet and gotten 597 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 2: bruised in bloody and then came home. If none of 598 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 2: that matters, strangulation is the cause, what are you going 599 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 2: to find on her neck? If it is manual's strangulation, 600 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 2: what are you going to see? 601 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, well you're externally You're going to see marks and 602 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: they will come up as contoosed areas because it's not 603 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: like a direct like if you think about someone taking 604 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: their hand and punching soft tissue, like punching somebody in 605 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: the chest or on the arm. It's kind of a 606 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: slow burn. With direct pressure applied to the neck, you'll 607 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: see these red areas around the neck. It's a lot 608 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: more pronounced when you have a ligature like a rope 609 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: that's around the neck, but you can still see it 610 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: with hands. And where it's most mind blowing is when 611 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: you get into the neck dissection. It's when we in 612 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: the morgue we call it reflection of the neck. So 613 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: the neck, the tissue of the neck, the external tissue 614 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: of the skin, if you will, is literally flipped back 615 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 1: and we can see all of the muscles in the 616 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: neck and you look for what are refer to these 617 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: kind of interlaced muscles on the front part of the 618 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:56,239 Speaker 1: neck called strap muscles. That's what perpetrators go after. And 619 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: they run on either side of our trachea, and as 620 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: they squeeze down the trachia, they're also applying pressure to 621 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: the strap muscles and they get hemorrhage in them. And 622 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: you don't get that from somebody falling on a staircase. Now, 623 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: if they fell on a staircase, let's see, how could 624 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: they sustain that? If they fell, you could maybe fall 625 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,839 Speaker 1: from a height and your point of impact would be 626 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: your neck onto an iron bar. And in the old 627 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: days when they had gigantic steering wheels and cars before restraints, 628 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: I've seen them where I've actually seen high a one 629 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: hyoid bone fractured from striking a steering wheel on a 630 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: gigantic Pontiac sedan. That's the only way you're going to 631 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: get this other than manual strangulation. You've got this entire 632 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: cacophony of injuries on this woman's body. And it seems 633 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: as though they had enough data to convince a jury 634 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 1: with they decided to go down this rabbit hole with 635 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: the trying of paint, and I just I don't intellectually, 636 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: I don't understand the value and that is what it 637 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: comes down to. 638 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 2: It sounds to me like the defense did a good 639 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 2: job of confusing the prosecution. And I'm not being a 640 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 2: lawyer here. If the cause of death is strangulation, why 641 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:14,959 Speaker 2: are we worrying about anything else? 642 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: I really I have no idea, but suffice it to 643 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 1: say that Kara Rentala is currently on trial for a 644 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: fourth time, and like in all cases, she is innocent 645 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: until proven guilty. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.