WEBVTT - The Girlfriends S2/Bonus 1 - The Girlfriends’ Guide to: Identifying a Doe 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:06.680 Novel. 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:10.360 Hello. 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:14.440 I'm Annasinfield, the producer of The Girlfriends, and I'm here 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:17.160 taking over the mic because I wanted to do something 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:19.640 that's very close to my heart and the philosophy of 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:24.920 the show. When we set out to make The Girlfriends, 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:29.040 I insisted on providing concrete resources for any listeners who 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:32.320 may relate to the hard topics that we cover. It's 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:35.640 why we always partner with relevant charities, So if you're 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:38.880 triggered or inspired by something we've mentioned, you've got somewhere 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:42.640 legitimate to go for advice. But I've also done a 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:44.960 lot of behind the scenes work to make sure that 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:47.640 we actually know what we're talking about. You know, from 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:52.680 boots on the ground reporting, intensive investigations, and countless conversations 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:56.320 with experts, you probably only hear about one percent of 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:58.440 the things that I get to learn during the production 0:00:58.560 --> 0:00:59.639 of the podcast, and. 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:00.920 I want to pass some of it on. 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:07.360 So let me introduce you to The Girlfriend's Guide, a 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.199 mini series where I lay out how you can solve 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:14.559 crimes and keep your girlfriends safe. We'll dive back into 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:17.800 our archive of never heard before interviews, break down real 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:21.360 life case studies, and give tangible tips on how you 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:24.399 can do it yourself. Oh and just a quick heads up, 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:27.000 we'll be discussing murder and acts of violence in this 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:32.960 episode from the teams at Novel and iHeart Podcasts. You're 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:37.680 listening to The Girlfriend's Guide, Episode one, How to Identify 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:54.200 a dough. I feel like I need to say something 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:57.600 before we kick off. It's not normal for an everyday 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:01.920 person to attempt to identify a dough, but lately I've 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:04.920 noticed that more and more citizen sleuths are plugging the 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:09.440 gaps left behind by law enforcements, dwindling resources, or, let's 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:17.040 face it, lack of interest. It is estimated that four 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:21.240 hundred unidentified bodies are found each year in the United States, 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:25.160 and around one thousand of those people are still unidentified 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:30.440 a year later, which means, sadly, cases build up and 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:35.640 get forgotten. Today, there are over fourteen thousand unidentified bodies 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:38.560 on NamUs, which is the US database for missing and 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:43.400 unidentified people. Giving someone back their name is important. We 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.120 spoke about that a lot on the Girlfriends But before 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:48.080 we get stuck in, I want to ask you to 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:52.040 act with caution. Identifying someone who's been resigned to a 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:55.440 cold case is obviously a very caring and hard thing to. 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:57.080 Do when you don't know who they are. 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:01.400 But the fact is someone does at some point along 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:03.880 the way, you might be tempted to contact their family 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:07.080 and friends to help connect the dots for you. This 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:10.000 may have become a challenge to be solved, but every 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:13.040 new hope or reminder can be devastating for the people 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:16.560 on the other side, So tread lightly on people's lives. 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:20.560 Something you need to ask yourself is why am I 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:25.200 doing this? And that is a really complex ethical question. Ultimately, 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:27.760 you just have to be considerate, think about if it's 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:31.080 appropriate to approach victims' families, and also then how you 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:35.840 would do it Instead, I'd recommend approaching the authorities first 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:38.520 so they can help you prove the connection before the 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:46.560 family is informed. All Right, ethics briefly covered, let's get 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:50.840 to it. So if you do find yourself interested in 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:54.440 a case involving an unidentified person, what do you do 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:58.880 and how do you identify them? Let's use an example 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:00.960 that I've come to know really well well, the case 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:04.360 of Heidie Bulch from season two of The Girlfriends. If 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:06.640 you listen to the series, then you know that Heidi 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.360 was identified twenty four years after her remains were discovered, 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:13.760 but for a long time, the detectives really only had 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:16.680 the information from the initial police reports to go off, 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:18.480 which reads like some. 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:19.800 Sort of murder mystery novel. 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:24.440 Here is my Canadian friend pretending to be an American 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:27.000 detective reading a summation of the police report. 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:32.760 March nineteen eighty nine, two golfers discover a woman's head 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:36.160 on a golf course in Hopewell Township, New Jersey, sixty 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:39.680 five miles down from New York. A short while later, 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:43.240 her legs were discovered in a wooded area sixty five 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:47.599 miles away. A post mortem confirms that she was white, 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:52.640 blond hair, blue eyes, and matching blue eyeshadow line. She 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:56.919 has a couple of distinctive features, including a maul and scars. 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:01.520 Her estimated age is around twenty to thirty. The legs 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:05.800 are officially linked to the head via DNA analysis. No 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:07.760 arms or torso are found. 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:11.919 In the first few weeks of the investigation into what 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:15.440 would one day be known as Heidi's remains, the detectives 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:20.360 tried everything. They put out nationwide requests asking for information 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:22.160 on any missing person. 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:23.000 That would fit her description. 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:27.640 They made flyers, they held press conferences, interviewed families of 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:29.839 people who thought the remains could belong. 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:31.080 To their loved one. 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.240 Those were the textbook things that detectives would do back 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.760 in the eighties when working on a live case with 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:40.880 an unidentified body and an unknown killer. But none of 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:48.719 it worked and eventually the case went cold. By the 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:51.400 time the case was reopened in the twenty tens, there 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:54.760 were new options available, and that is when things really 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:58.640 started to heat up. An incredibly useful new resource available 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:03.159 to the investigators the National Missing and Unidentified Person's System 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:05.400 aka NamUs in the States. 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:06.520 Me and my. 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:10.120 Assistant producer Maddie use this a lot on the Girlfriends, 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:15.640 and Maddie is brilliantly wonderfully here joining me to explain 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.040 how you can also use NAMOUS to help with the 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:18.679 Doe case. 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:21.600 So, hey, Maddie, Hello Anna, Thanks. 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:25.320 For having me tell me about NamUs. What actually is it? 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:31.080 First of all, so NamUs is this amazingly vast database 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:35.960 in the US which includes the profiles of every currently 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:41.080 reported missing person and also every unidentified body. What's great 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:45.200 about NamUs is that it's used by government agencies like 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.280 the police and detectives, but also. 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:49.440 Anyone can access it. 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:52.839 So if you are looking to identify your own dough, 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:55.640 this is an incredibly useful resource for you too. 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.640 So what does it actually look like as a normal 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:02.039 service and just accessing this online? 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:02.960 What do you see? 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:06.440 What you're going to see is thousands and thousands of 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:13.240 profiles listed under missing people or on the unidentified body section. 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:17.680 It's basically a way of cataloging the profiles of every 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:18.720 single one of these people. 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:24.360 And so you kind of would search via location, age, 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:25.120 that sort of thing. 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:26.080 Yeah, that's right. 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:28.720 There's actually lots of different things. You can search by 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:32.320 date that people went missing, date that body was found, 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:38.720 estimated age, race, gender, So any small details that you 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:40.760 do have about your dough is something that you can 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:41.440 enter on there. 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:47.080 And I think the idea is that every single unidentified case, 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:49.680 every single missing person's case, is meant to be listed. 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:53.920 Are there any instances when that doesn't happen? Theoretically No, 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:58.440 Every missing person who has been reported as missing will 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:02.320 be on there, and every unidentified dough will be on there. 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:06.520 An exception to this, and it's something that actually happened 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.480 in The Girlfriends Season two when we were looking for 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.920 our dough. We couldn't find a matching profile on NAMOUS 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:16.520 and this really confused us for a while, but it 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:20.120 was actually a massive clue. Basically, if someone's not listed 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.120 on there, it probably means that they have been identified. 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:27.000 Mmm, I know, I wish we knew that much much 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:27.560 earlier on. 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:30.360 Yeah, we definitely thought maybe we were going crazy and 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:33.000 not searching it well enough. But no, that's another clue 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:35.240 that you can definitely include in your investigation. 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:38.720 And so you've got things like this government resource name US. 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:43.560 But there's also other databases for missing people and unidentified people, 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:44.160 aren't there? 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:45.440 Yeah, there are. 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:50.560 There are a bunch of independent volunteer run projects like 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:54.599 the dough Network that we partnered with the Charlie Project. 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:59.520 There's also databases that focus on more specific groups of people, 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.319 like LGBTQ plus databases. 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:03.760 There's one for people of color. 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:06.960 And these have really been set up, I think in 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:12.040 response to some of the inaction that comes from government 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.600 agencies to serve a specific group which maybe hasn't got 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.800 the attention that they deserve from government resources. 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:23.600 Also in some cases just not having the expertise from 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:29.360 the communities involved to identify things that could be clear clues. Yeah, totally, 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:33.360 like someone's sexual orientation might not be listed on their 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:38.200 names missing profile, but that's something that could lead to 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:44.200 other clues about who they were. But what if you 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:48.200 can't find the doe's information on these databases just like us, 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.079 or you think there might be more information out there, 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:54.280 or perhaps you think you know who it could be 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:57.280 and you want to request extra information on their case. 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:03.040 Well that's when you can deploy every journalist's favorite tool, 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:06.200 the Freedom of Information Act request. 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:09.040 After the break, we'll. 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:11.640 Tell you all about how to access information from the 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:14.720 authorities that just might solve your case. 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:36.719 Fifth of December twenty twenty two. Hi, there, I'm a 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.400 journalist from the UK and I'm wondering if you might 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:41.760 be able to help me find out some information about 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:43.720 a body that was discovered. 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:43.959 In nineteen eight. 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.640 Fourth of January twenty twenty three, Hi, I hope you've 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:50.200 had a lovely holidays and a happy new year. I'm 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:53.640 just wondering if you've got anywhere with tracking down those records. 0:10:54.800 --> 0:11:00.240 Ninth of January twenty twenty four did happy new year again. 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.080 I'm writing to let you know that it has now 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.040 been over a year since my initial request was sent 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:08.720 to you on the fifth of December twenty twenty two, 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:11.880 and we are yet to receive any progress at all 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:12.800 on these records. 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:14.400 Nothing's world. 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:18.200 So, Maddie, that was a clip of you from season 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:21.320 two getting really annoyed at the medical examiners for not 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.800 responding to your Freedom of Information Act request. It's fair 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:27.680 to say you've filed a lot and also you've had 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:31.080 to deal with being disappointed a lot. How many times 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:33.200 do you think you've done a for a request for 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:34.280 the girlfriends alone? 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:35.559 Yeah, that really was. 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:40.040 The tip of the iceberg, I think from my calculations. 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:44.280 In total, I filed about forty four freedom of information 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.319 requests and some of those were obviously the medical Examiner, 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:52.000 but then a lot of them were the NYPD, various courts, 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.320 the district attorney, basically anyone I could think of that 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:56.240 might have information. 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.800 It was amazing we got so much information based off 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.120 these for requests. I mean, I'd like, I don't think 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:04.960 we would have solved this case if it wasn't for 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:05.840 all of your foyers. 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:09.320 So you like really saved the day there. Oh, thanks, Nna. 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.560 That makes me feel better about the hours I've sunk 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:13.160 into this. 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:14.520 And the amount of moaning. 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:16.520 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeahah. 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:20.600 But I was thinking feoyer is something that's really standard 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:22.920 kind of bread and butter stuff for us, and it's 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:24.760 something that a lot of people probably have heard of, 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:27.240 but they maybe don't know what it actually is. 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:28.920 So could you break that down for the listeners. 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:29.880 Yeah. 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:34.880 So, FEYER stands for Freedom of Information Act. Sometimes it's 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:37.480 called FOIL as well, and then its freedom of information 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:41.679 law has been in place since nineteen sixty seven, and 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.079 it means that the public have a right to request 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:50.480 access to records from any federal agency, and those federal 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:55.720 agencies have to disclose any information requested unless it falls 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:59.839 under one of the nine exemptions, which protect things like 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:03.880 personal information or obviously national security. 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:06.400 That's fair enough, Yeah, it's fair enough. 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.360 It's described as a law that keeps citizens in the 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:11.160 know about their governments. 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:15.280 In what context can that be useful in the identification 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:16.040 of a dough. 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:19.400 To put it really simply, when you're trying to identify someone, 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.880 the more information you have about them, the more likely 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.600 you are to figure out who they are. And FOIL 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.960 requests are really good way of accessing more information that 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:34.440 wouldn't be immediately available on the Internet or elsewhere. So specifically, 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:37.040 there are some very useful things you could look for, 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:42.160 like post mortem records or medical examiner records in general 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:45.040 could tell you more about how someone died and give 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:49.200 other clues based on their estimated age or their medical records. 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:52.400 Police reports can also be really interesting. 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:56.880 We managed to access a trove of police files from 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.600 the time that Heidi's body parts were found and she 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:02.640 was being treated as Jane Doe, and you just never 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:04.720 know what kind of clues you might get with something 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:07.839 like that. In those reports, we found out that Heidi 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:11.160 was wearing blue eyeshadow when she was found, and this 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.960 could be something that we could ask someone who knew 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.280 her and they could confirm that that's something she always wore, 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.160 for example. And it also allows you to see what 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:23.360 investigating might have already been done by law enforcement, so 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:27.680 then you can pull together your information with theirs and 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:30.160 see which leads you could follow next. 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:33.800 This all sounds like obviously amazing in theory, but I 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.040 think when I first started out as a journalist, the 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:38.600 idea of doing a foyer felt like a sort of 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:43.040 mystical beast, and I wasn't quite sure how I should 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:48.120 be approaching it. So how do you literally file a 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:49.040 foyer request. 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:52.880 It depends a lot on the department that you're requesting 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:56.760 information for, Okay, but there often are forms on a 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:01.119 website that are pretty straightforward and easy to follow an email. 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:03.680 If you're unsure, the best thing you can do is 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:06.760 call up a records department at the institution you're trying 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:10.800 to get information from and ask a nice person to 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:13.920 talk you through it slowly as if you're very stupid, 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:17.080 which is something that happened to me on multiple occasions, 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:21.600 has probably led to the success of us getting this information. 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:23.760 I think like the big takeaway that I want to 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.640 make sure everyone has is that the point of foyers 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:31.000 is that they are so that normal people can, as 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:33.800 I think you said earlier, sort of like know what's 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:37.880 happening in government. And so I think what I'd really 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.200 like to instill in people is that it isn't some 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:44.520 sort of elitist exercise to file a foyer. It's something 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:47.280 that in theory, everybody should be able to do, and 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:49.920 it's your right to do. It's your right exactly. 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:55.040 Having said that, there are definitely some hurdles in getting 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.080 information from foyer requests. 0:15:58.200 --> 0:15:59.640 A huge one is. 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:01.600 The timeframe that they can take. 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.520 It definitely varies by location and institution, but it can 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:09.000 sometimes take six months just to get a response. And 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:13.560 also what you can access is obviously limited. Often with 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:17.520 medical examiners records. For example, the full post mortem can 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.200 only be accessed by a relative of the deceased person, 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:23.640 which of course makes things really hard when you don't 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:28.160 even know who the person is. And whilst it's frustrating 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.440 that there's a lot you can't access, it's for really 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:34.240 good reason. But you just never know what you're going 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:36.560 to get back once you send a request, so it's 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:40.240 always always worth filing them just to see. And the 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:43.840 feeling of waiting six months to hear if you've got 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:46.440 access to some records and then seeing something in your 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:50.320 inbox is truly the greatest thrill I can imagine. 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.440 Yeah, but also, you know, we're talking about kind of 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:56.600 sloothing around online if you think that something's a live 0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:59.560 case or whatever. I think there's a lot of slothing 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:03.160 around online and in kind of archival resources that we 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.480 do things that kind of don't require foroyers. You know. 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:10.040 The very specific example bringing it back to Heidi is 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:14.160 that her case was actually eventually solved in part because 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:17.199 the serial killer, Joel Rifkin, confessed to the murder in 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:21.080 a book years later. And so you never know when 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:23.680 that stuff's going to appear or if it's already out there, 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:25.120 and you just need to kind of look for it. 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:27.800 And so we did a lot of that, didn't we we' 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:31.439 gleaned lots of information from articles and forums. Maddie, do 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:33.920 you have any tips for how people can use the web. 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:38.320 It definitely involves a lot of lurking around on random websites. 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:42.760 The first thing is, if it's a contemporary case, there'll 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.960 probably be some articles about it online and those will 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:47.040 be easy to access. 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:48.320 If it's a bit. 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:51.760 Older, you might want to search on an online newspaper database. 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:56.800 These are quite often behind payballs, but most libraries tend 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.800 to let you use theirs for free. And then we 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.359 looked in some really random places and found some quite 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:07.959 useful information. Forums can be good. I remember we found 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:11.120 a message on a forum from years ago of someone 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.080 who said that they knew Heidi and were friends with her, 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:16.840 and that gave us some information about where we think 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:21.440 Heidi lived. But also Reddit is amazing. I love readit 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:27.560 so much. And once we finished season one, we actually 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:30.520 found a group of people on Reddit discussing who they 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:34.400 thought the torso might be. So it's a great way 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:38.520 to pull your information with other people. If you are 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.680 looking into this case, there is a really good chance 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:45.159 that someone else's and teaming together is only going to 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:47.640 give you more information and make your case stronger. 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:51.120 As you know if you listen to our second season, 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:54.280 when Joel Rifkin admitted to Heidie's murder, he named the 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:58.400 dough as Susie, and that meant that suddenly the detectives 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:01.760 had something to cling onto, so they started searching for 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:07.040 missing persons reports and arrest reports for somebody called Susie. Ultimately, 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:09.760 this led them to finding a mugshot for a woman 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:12.920 called Susan Spencer that looked very similar to their. 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:14.240 Dough, Maddie. 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:17.880 That's a very convoluted way of going about this, but 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:20.600 that's often the way when it comes to unidentified cases. 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:23.600 Are there any similar techniques that we could use to 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:24.560 help identify a dough? 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:29.960 Yeah, definitely. I think NamUs again is really useful for this. 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:35.720 If you have an unidentified person, there's a quite high 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:40.480 likelihood that that person is missing from someone else and 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:44.160 hopefully they will have reported them as missing, so there 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:47.840 should be a profile on NamUs for that missing person. 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:51.240 And what you can do is take the information you 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:54.600 have about your dough, like when they were suspected to 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:59.200 have died, how old they are, their gender, their race, 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.719 and put those into a search of missing people and 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.400 see if anyone matches or it could be a possible 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:09.240 candidate for your dough. And you might not find just 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:11.760 one person who's an exact match, but it might come 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:14.199 up with a list of names that you can then 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:15.120 work to rule out. 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:18.119 But you've got to be flexible as well, don't you, 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:20.760 in a bit like creative about it, because you know, 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:25.600 sometimes people will have really changed since they were registered 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:28.320 as a missing person, or they might have traveled to 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:31.840 a state that the person who filed that missing person's 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:34.240 report had no idea of and stuff like that. 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:37.960 So with all these searches, it could get you closer 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:40.360 and it could give you ideas of who it could be, 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:43.200 but definitely take. 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:44.560 It with a pinch of salt and keep a very 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:45.280 open mind. 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:49.639 And then I guess the next thing is that sometimes 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:53.119 none of this works right, And that's something that happened 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:55.680 to us when we were trying to identify the Jane 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:58.760 Doe who ended up being Heidi from season one. We 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:02.119 kept reaching these dead and so at one point I 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:06.760 went full obsessive journalists and I started looking into killers 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:09.840 from the time to see if I could match the 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:12.840 case of our Jane Doe, you know how she was killed, 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:15.760 her age, and see if it matched up with a 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:18.919 killer's m o at points. In order to do this, 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:21.680 I even had a phone call with the criminal profiler. 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:25.480 And actually, what was kind of neat is I had 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:28.000 that phone call with a criminal profiler. They told me 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:30.360 a bunch of stuff, and then we received the Hope 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:33.879 Well police report where they also had got the FBI 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:36.680 to create a profile of the killer back in nineteen 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:40.480 eighty nine. And you got particularly into this, didn't you. 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:45.840 I found this fascinating. Yeah, they asked. 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:48.320 The FBI Behavioral Science Unit to create a profile of 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:52.040 the killer very early on in their investigation, where they 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:55.480 had so little to go on other than Heidi and 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:58.840 the state that she was found in. And what's really 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:02.800 really crazy about this now knowing about Joel Rifkin and 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:07.160 who he is, the details are a really close. So 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.679 some of the characteristics that they predicted this person would have. 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:15.520 They'd be a white male in their twenties or thirties, single, 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:19.720 living alone. They may have an occupation which involves travel, 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:25.520 like sales, a truck driver, or construction. They're educated, and 0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:28.000 this is the one that actually gives me chills. They 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:30.520 may not have killed before, but they will kill again. 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:35.679 Yeah, and I mean, obviously we now know that Heidi 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:39.480 was the first of what is predicted to have been 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:42.080 seventeen victims. 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:45.879 Yeah, it's true, but it's also a really interesting and 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:49.360 useful way of looking at a case like this to 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:52.360 turn your attention to when you've reached a dead end 0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:55.359 trying to look at information about the victim, to try 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:57.159