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Speaker 1: Novel.

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Speaker 2: Hello.

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Speaker 3: I'm Annasinfield, the producer of The Girlfriends, and I'm here

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Speaker 3: taking over the mic because I wanted to do something

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Speaker 3: that's very close to my heart and the philosophy of

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Speaker 3: the show. When we set out to make The Girlfriends,

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Speaker 3: I insisted on providing concrete resources for any listeners who

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Speaker 3: may relate to the hard topics that we cover. It's

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Speaker 3: why we always partner with relevant charities, So if you're

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Speaker 3: triggered or inspired by something we've mentioned, you've got somewhere

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Speaker 3: legitimate to go for advice. But I've also done a

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Speaker 3: lot of behind the scenes work to make sure that

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Speaker 3: we actually know what we're talking about. You know, from

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Speaker 3: boots on the ground reporting, intensive investigations, and countless conversations

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Speaker 3: with experts, you probably only hear about one percent of

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Speaker 3: the things that I get to learn during the production

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Speaker 3: of the podcast, and.

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Speaker 2: I want to pass some of it on.

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Speaker 3: So let me introduce you to The Girlfriend's Guide, a

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Speaker 3: mini series where I lay out how you can solve

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Speaker 3: crimes and keep your girlfriends safe. We'll dive back into

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Speaker 3: our archive of never heard before interviews, break down real

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Speaker 3: life case studies, and give tangible tips on how you

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Speaker 3: can do it yourself. Oh and just a quick heads up,

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Speaker 3: we'll be discussing murder and acts of violence in this

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Speaker 3: episode from the teams at Novel and iHeart Podcasts. You're

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Speaker 3: listening to The Girlfriend's Guide, Episode one, How to Identify

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Speaker 3: a dough. I feel like I need to say something

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Speaker 3: before we kick off. It's not normal for an everyday

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Speaker 3: person to attempt to identify a dough, but lately I've

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Speaker 3: noticed that more and more citizen sleuths are plugging the

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Speaker 3: gaps left behind by law enforcements, dwindling resources, or, let's

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Speaker 3: face it, lack of interest. It is estimated that four

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Speaker 3: hundred unidentified bodies are found each year in the United States,

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Speaker 3: and around one thousand of those people are still unidentified

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Speaker 3: a year later, which means, sadly, cases build up and

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Speaker 3: get forgotten. Today, there are over fourteen thousand unidentified bodies

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Speaker 3: on NamUs, which is the US database for missing and

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Speaker 3: unidentified people. Giving someone back their name is important. We

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Speaker 3: spoke about that a lot on the Girlfriends But before

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Speaker 3: we get stuck in, I want to ask you to

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Speaker 3: act with caution. Identifying someone who's been resigned to a

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Speaker 3: cold case is obviously a very caring and hard thing to.

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Speaker 2: Do when you don't know who they are.

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Speaker 3: But the fact is someone does at some point along

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Speaker 3: the way, you might be tempted to contact their family

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Speaker 3: and friends to help connect the dots for you. This

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Speaker 3: may have become a challenge to be solved, but every

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Speaker 3: new hope or reminder can be devastating for the people

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Speaker 3: on the other side, So tread lightly on people's lives.

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Speaker 3: Something you need to ask yourself is why am I

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Speaker 3: doing this? And that is a really complex ethical question. Ultimately,

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Speaker 3: you just have to be considerate, think about if it's

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Speaker 3: appropriate to approach victims' families, and also then how you

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Speaker 3: would do it Instead, I'd recommend approaching the authorities first

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Speaker 3: so they can help you prove the connection before the

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Speaker 3: family is informed. All Right, ethics briefly covered, let's get

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Speaker 3: to it. So if you do find yourself interested in

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Speaker 3: a case involving an unidentified person, what do you do

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Speaker 3: and how do you identify them? Let's use an example

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Speaker 3: that I've come to know really well well, the case

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Speaker 3: of Heidie Bulch from season two of The Girlfriends. If

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Speaker 3: you listen to the series, then you know that Heidi

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Speaker 3: was identified twenty four years after her remains were discovered,

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Speaker 3: but for a long time, the detectives really only had

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Speaker 3: the information from the initial police reports to go off,

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Speaker 3: which reads like some.

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Speaker 2: Sort of murder mystery novel.

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Speaker 3: Here is my Canadian friend pretending to be an American

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Speaker 3: detective reading a summation of the police report.

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Speaker 4: March nineteen eighty nine, two golfers discover a woman's head

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Speaker 4: on a golf course in Hopewell Township, New Jersey, sixty

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Speaker 4: five miles down from New York. A short while later,

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Speaker 4: her legs were discovered in a wooded area sixty five

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Speaker 4: miles away. A post mortem confirms that she was white,

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Speaker 4: blond hair, blue eyes, and matching blue eyeshadow line. She

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Speaker 4: has a couple of distinctive features, including a maul and scars.

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Speaker 4: Her estimated age is around twenty to thirty. The legs

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Speaker 4: are officially linked to the head via DNA analysis. No

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Speaker 4: arms or torso are found.

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Speaker 3: In the first few weeks of the investigation into what

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Speaker 3: would one day be known as Heidi's remains, the detectives

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Speaker 3: tried everything. They put out nationwide requests asking for information

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Speaker 3: on any missing person.

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Speaker 2: That would fit her description.

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Speaker 3: They made flyers, they held press conferences, interviewed families of

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Speaker 3: people who thought the remains could belong.

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Speaker 2: To their loved one.

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Speaker 3: Those were the textbook things that detectives would do back

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Speaker 3: in the eighties when working on a live case with

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Speaker 3: an unidentified body and an unknown killer. But none of

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Speaker 3: it worked and eventually the case went cold. By the

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Speaker 3: time the case was reopened in the twenty tens, there

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Speaker 3: were new options available, and that is when things really

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Speaker 3: started to heat up. An incredibly useful new resource available

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Speaker 3: to the investigators the National Missing and Unidentified Person's System

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Speaker 3: aka NamUs in the States.

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Speaker 2: Me and my.

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Speaker 3: Assistant producer Maddie use this a lot on the Girlfriends,

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Speaker 3: and Maddie is brilliantly wonderfully here joining me to explain

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Speaker 3: how you can also use NAMOUS to help with the

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Speaker 3: Doe case.

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Speaker 2: So, hey, Maddie, Hello Anna, Thanks.

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Speaker 3: For having me tell me about NamUs. What actually is it?

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Speaker 5: First of all, so NamUs is this amazingly vast database

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Speaker 5: in the US which includes the profiles of every currently

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Speaker 5: reported missing person and also every unidentified body. What's great

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Speaker 5: about NamUs is that it's used by government agencies like

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Speaker 5: the police and detectives, but also.

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Speaker 1: Anyone can access it.

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Speaker 5: So if you are looking to identify your own dough,

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Speaker 5: this is an incredibly useful resource for you too.

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Speaker 3: So what does it actually look like as a normal

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Speaker 3: service and just accessing this online?

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Speaker 2: What do you see?

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Speaker 5: What you're going to see is thousands and thousands of

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Speaker 5: profiles listed under missing people or on the unidentified body section.

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Speaker 5: It's basically a way of cataloging the profiles of every

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Speaker 5: single one of these people.

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Speaker 3: And so you kind of would search via location, age,

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Speaker 3: that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 5: There's actually lots of different things. You can search by

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Speaker 5: date that people went missing, date that body was found,

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Speaker 5: estimated age, race, gender, So any small details that you

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Speaker 5: do have about your dough is something that you can

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Speaker 5: enter on there.

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Speaker 3: And I think the idea is that every single unidentified case,

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Speaker 3: every single missing person's case, is meant to be listed.

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Speaker 3: Are there any instances when that doesn't happen? Theoretically No,

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Speaker 3: Every missing person who has been reported as missing will

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Speaker 3: be on there, and every unidentified dough will be on there.

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Speaker 3: An exception to this, and it's something that actually happened

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Speaker 3: in The Girlfriends Season two when we were looking for

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Speaker 3: our dough. We couldn't find a matching profile on NAMOUS

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Speaker 3: and this really confused us for a while, but it

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Speaker 3: was actually a massive clue. Basically, if someone's not listed

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Speaker 3: on there, it probably means that they have been identified.

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Speaker 2: Mmm, I know, I wish we knew that much much

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Speaker 2: earlier on.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we definitely thought maybe we were going crazy and

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Speaker 5: not searching it well enough. But no, that's another clue

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Speaker 5: that you can definitely include in your investigation.

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Speaker 3: And so you've got things like this government resource name US.

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Speaker 3: But there's also other databases for missing people and unidentified people,

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Speaker 3: aren't there?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there are.

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Speaker 5: There are a bunch of independent volunteer run projects like

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Speaker 5: the dough Network that we partnered with the Charlie Project.

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Speaker 5: There's also databases that focus on more specific groups of people,

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Speaker 5: like LGBTQ plus databases.

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Speaker 1: There's one for people of color.

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Speaker 5: And these have really been set up, I think in

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Speaker 5: response to some of the inaction that comes from government

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Speaker 5: agencies to serve a specific group which maybe hasn't got

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Speaker 5: the attention that they deserve from government resources.

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Speaker 3: Also in some cases just not having the expertise from

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Speaker 3: the communities involved to identify things that could be clear clues. Yeah, totally,

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Speaker 3: like someone's sexual orientation might not be listed on their

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Speaker 3: names missing profile, but that's something that could lead to

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Speaker 3: other clues about who they were. But what if you

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Speaker 3: can't find the doe's information on these databases just like us,

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Speaker 3: or you think there might be more information out there,

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Speaker 3: or perhaps you think you know who it could be

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Speaker 3: and you want to request extra information on their case.

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Speaker 3: Well that's when you can deploy every journalist's favorite tool,

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Speaker 3: the Freedom of Information Act request.

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Speaker 2: After the break, we'll.

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Speaker 3: Tell you all about how to access information from the

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Speaker 3: authorities that just might solve your case.

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Speaker 5: Fifth of December twenty twenty two. Hi, there, I'm a

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Speaker 5: journalist from the UK and I'm wondering if you might

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Speaker 5: be able to help me find out some information about

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Speaker 5: a body that was discovered.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen eight.

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Speaker 5: Fourth of January twenty twenty three, Hi, I hope you've

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Speaker 5: had a lovely holidays and a happy new year. I'm

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Speaker 5: just wondering if you've got anywhere with tracking down those records.

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Speaker 5: Ninth of January twenty twenty four did happy new year again.

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Speaker 5: I'm writing to let you know that it has now

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Speaker 5: been over a year since my initial request was sent

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Speaker 5: to you on the fifth of December twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 5: and we are yet to receive any progress at all

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Speaker 5: on these records.

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Speaker 1: Nothing's world.

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Speaker 3: So, Maddie, that was a clip of you from season

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Speaker 3: two getting really annoyed at the medical examiners for not

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Speaker 3: responding to your Freedom of Information Act request. It's fair

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Speaker 3: to say you've filed a lot and also you've had

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Speaker 3: to deal with being disappointed a lot. How many times

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Speaker 3: do you think you've done a for a request for

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Speaker 3: the girlfriends alone?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that really was.

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Speaker 5: The tip of the iceberg, I think from my calculations.

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Speaker 5: In total, I filed about forty four freedom of information

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Speaker 5: requests and some of those were obviously the medical Examiner,

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Speaker 5: but then a lot of them were the NYPD, various courts,

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Speaker 5: the district attorney, basically anyone I could think of that

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Speaker 5: might have information.

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Speaker 3: It was amazing we got so much information based off

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Speaker 3: these for requests. I mean, I'd like, I don't think

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Speaker 3: we would have solved this case if it wasn't for

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Speaker 3: all of your foyers.

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Speaker 2: So you like really saved the day there. Oh, thanks, Nna.

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Speaker 5: That makes me feel better about the hours I've sunk

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Speaker 5: into this.

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Speaker 2: And the amount of moaning.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeahah.

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Speaker 3: But I was thinking feoyer is something that's really standard

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Speaker 3: kind of bread and butter stuff for us, and it's

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Speaker 3: something that a lot of people probably have heard of,

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Speaker 3: but they maybe don't know what it actually is.

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Speaker 2: So could you break that down for the listeners.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: So, FEYER stands for Freedom of Information Act. Sometimes it's

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Speaker 5: called FOIL as well, and then its freedom of information

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Speaker 5: law has been in place since nineteen sixty seven, and

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Speaker 5: it means that the public have a right to request

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Speaker 5: access to records from any federal agency, and those federal

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Speaker 5: agencies have to disclose any information requested unless it falls

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Speaker 5: under one of the nine exemptions, which protect things like

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Speaker 5: personal information or obviously national security.

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Speaker 2: That's fair enough, Yeah, it's fair enough.

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Speaker 5: It's described as a law that keeps citizens in the

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Speaker 5: know about their governments.

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Speaker 3: In what context can that be useful in the identification

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Speaker 3: of a dough.

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Speaker 5: To put it really simply, when you're trying to identify someone,

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Speaker 5: the more information you have about them, the more likely

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Speaker 5: you are to figure out who they are. And FOIL

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Speaker 5: requests are really good way of accessing more information that

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Speaker 5: wouldn't be immediately available on the Internet or elsewhere. So specifically,

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Speaker 5: there are some very useful things you could look for,

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Speaker 5: like post mortem records or medical examiner records in general

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Speaker 5: could tell you more about how someone died and give

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Speaker 5: other clues based on their estimated age or their medical records.

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Speaker 1: Police reports can also be really interesting.

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Speaker 5: We managed to access a trove of police files from

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Speaker 5: the time that Heidi's body parts were found and she

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Speaker 5: was being treated as Jane Doe, and you just never

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Speaker 5: know what kind of clues you might get with something

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Speaker 5: like that. In those reports, we found out that Heidi

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Speaker 5: was wearing blue eyeshadow when she was found, and this

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Speaker 5: could be something that we could ask someone who knew

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Speaker 5: her and they could confirm that that's something she always wore,

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Speaker 5: for example. And it also allows you to see what

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Speaker 5: investigating might have already been done by law enforcement, so

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Speaker 5: then you can pull together your information with theirs and

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Speaker 5: see which leads you could follow next.

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Speaker 3: This all sounds like obviously amazing in theory, but I

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Speaker 3: think when I first started out as a journalist, the

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Speaker 3: idea of doing a foyer felt like a sort of

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Speaker 3: mystical beast, and I wasn't quite sure how I should

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Speaker 3: be approaching it. So how do you literally file a

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Speaker 3: foyer request.

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Speaker 5: It depends a lot on the department that you're requesting

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Speaker 5: information for, Okay, but there often are forms on a

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Speaker 5: website that are pretty straightforward and easy to follow an email.

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Speaker 5: If you're unsure, the best thing you can do is

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Speaker 5: call up a records department at the institution you're trying

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Speaker 5: to get information from and ask a nice person to

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Speaker 5: talk you through it slowly as if you're very stupid,

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Speaker 5: which is something that happened to me on multiple occasions,

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Speaker 5: has probably led to the success of us getting this information.

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Speaker 3: I think like the big takeaway that I want to

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Speaker 3: make sure everyone has is that the point of foyers

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Speaker 3: is that they are so that normal people can, as

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Speaker 3: I think you said earlier, sort of like know what's

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Speaker 3: happening in government. And so I think what I'd really

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Speaker 3: like to instill in people is that it isn't some

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Speaker 3: sort of elitist exercise to file a foyer. It's something

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Speaker 3: that in theory, everybody should be able to do, and

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Speaker 3: it's your right to do. It's your right exactly.

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Speaker 5: Having said that, there are definitely some hurdles in getting

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Speaker 5: information from foyer requests.

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Speaker 2: A huge one is.

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Speaker 1: The timeframe that they can take.

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Speaker 5: It definitely varies by location and institution, but it can

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Speaker 5: sometimes take six months just to get a response. And

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Speaker 5: also what you can access is obviously limited. Often with

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Speaker 5: medical examiners records. For example, the full post mortem can

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Speaker 5: only be accessed by a relative of the deceased person,

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Speaker 5: which of course makes things really hard when you don't

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Speaker 5: even know who the person is. And whilst it's frustrating

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Speaker 5: that there's a lot you can't access, it's for really

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Speaker 5: good reason. But you just never know what you're going

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Speaker 5: to get back once you send a request, so it's

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Speaker 5: always always worth filing them just to see. And the

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Speaker 5: feeling of waiting six months to hear if you've got

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Speaker 5: access to some records and then seeing something in your

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Speaker 5: inbox is truly the greatest thrill I can imagine.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but also, you know, we're talking about kind of

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Speaker 3: sloothing around online if you think that something's a live

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Speaker 3: case or whatever. I think there's a lot of slothing

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Speaker 3: around online and in kind of archival resources that we

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Speaker 3: do things that kind of don't require foroyers. You know.

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Speaker 3: The very specific example bringing it back to Heidi is

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Speaker 3: that her case was actually eventually solved in part because

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Speaker 3: the serial killer, Joel Rifkin, confessed to the murder in

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Speaker 3: a book years later. And so you never know when

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Speaker 3: that stuff's going to appear or if it's already out there,

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Speaker 3: and you just need to kind of look for it.

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Speaker 3: And so we did a lot of that, didn't we we'

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Speaker 3: gleaned lots of information from articles and forums. Maddie, do

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Speaker 3: you have any tips for how people can use the web.

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Speaker 5: It definitely involves a lot of lurking around on random websites.

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Speaker 5: The first thing is, if it's a contemporary case, there'll

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Speaker 5: probably be some articles about it online and those will

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Speaker 5: be easy to access.

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Speaker 1: If it's a bit.

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Speaker 5: Older, you might want to search on an online newspaper database.

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Speaker 5: These are quite often behind payballs, but most libraries tend

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Speaker 5: to let you use theirs for free. And then we

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Speaker 5: looked in some really random places and found some quite

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Speaker 5: useful information. Forums can be good. I remember we found

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Speaker 5: a message on a forum from years ago of someone

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Speaker 5: who said that they knew Heidi and were friends with her,

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Speaker 5: and that gave us some information about where we think

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Speaker 5: Heidi lived. But also Reddit is amazing. I love readit

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Speaker 5: so much. And once we finished season one, we actually

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Speaker 5: found a group of people on Reddit discussing who they

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Speaker 5: thought the torso might be. So it's a great way

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Speaker 5: to pull your information with other people. If you are

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Speaker 5: looking into this case, there is a really good chance

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Speaker 5: that someone else's and teaming together is only going to

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Speaker 5: give you more information and make your case stronger.

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Speaker 3: As you know if you listen to our second season,

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Speaker 3: when Joel Rifkin admitted to Heidie's murder, he named the

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Speaker 3: dough as Susie, and that meant that suddenly the detectives

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Speaker 3: had something to cling onto, so they started searching for

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Speaker 3: missing persons reports and arrest reports for somebody called Susie. Ultimately,

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Speaker 3: this led them to finding a mugshot for a woman

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Speaker 3: called Susan Spencer that looked very similar to their.

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Speaker 2: Dough, Maddie.

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Speaker 3: That's a very convoluted way of going about this, but

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Speaker 3: that's often the way when it comes to unidentified cases.

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Speaker 3: Are there any similar techniques that we could use to

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Speaker 3: help identify a dough?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, definitely. I think NamUs again is really useful for this.

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Speaker 5: If you have an unidentified person, there's a quite high

341
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Speaker 5: likelihood that that person is missing from someone else and

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Speaker 5: hopefully they will have reported them as missing, so there

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Speaker 5: should be a profile on NamUs for that missing person.

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Speaker 5: And what you can do is take the information you

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Speaker 5: have about your dough, like when they were suspected to

346
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Speaker 5: have died, how old they are, their gender, their race,

347
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Speaker 5: and put those into a search of missing people and

348
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Speaker 5: see if anyone matches or it could be a possible

349
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Speaker 5: candidate for your dough. And you might not find just

350
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Speaker 5: one person who's an exact match, but it might come

351
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Speaker 5: up with a list of names that you can then

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Speaker 5: work to rule out.

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Speaker 3: But you've got to be flexible as well, don't you,

354
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Speaker 3: in a bit like creative about it, because you know,

355
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Speaker 3: sometimes people will have really changed since they were registered

356
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Speaker 3: as a missing person, or they might have traveled to

357
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Speaker 3: a state that the person who filed that missing person's

358
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Speaker 3: report had no idea of and stuff like that.

359
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Speaker 5: So with all these searches, it could get you closer

360
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,360
Speaker 5: and it could give you ideas of who it could be,

361
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Speaker 5: but definitely take.

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Speaker 1: It with a pinch of salt and keep a very

363
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Speaker 1: open mind.

364
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Speaker 3: And then I guess the next thing is that sometimes

365
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,119
Speaker 3: none of this works right, And that's something that happened

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Speaker 3: to us when we were trying to identify the Jane

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Speaker 3: Doe who ended up being Heidi from season one. We

368
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,119
Speaker 3: kept reaching these dead and so at one point I

369
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Speaker 3: went full obsessive journalists and I started looking into killers

370
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 3: from the time to see if I could match the

371
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 3: case of our Jane Doe, you know how she was killed,

372
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Speaker 3: her age, and see if it matched up with a

373
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Speaker 3: killer's m o at points. In order to do this,

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Speaker 3: I even had a phone call with the criminal profiler.

375
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Speaker 3: And actually, what was kind of neat is I had

376
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Speaker 3: that phone call with a criminal profiler. They told me

377
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,360
Speaker 3: a bunch of stuff, and then we received the Hope

378
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,879
Speaker 3: Well police report where they also had got the FBI

379
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,680
Speaker 3: to create a profile of the killer back in nineteen

380
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Speaker 3: eighty nine. And you got particularly into this, didn't you.

381
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Speaker 1: I found this fascinating. Yeah, they asked.

382
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Speaker 5: The FBI Behavioral Science Unit to create a profile of

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Speaker 5: the killer very early on in their investigation, where they

384
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 5: had so little to go on other than Heidi and

385
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Speaker 5: the state that she was found in. And what's really

386
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 5: really crazy about this now knowing about Joel Rifkin and

387
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:07,160
Speaker 5: who he is, the details are a really close. So

388
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,679
Speaker 5: some of the characteristics that they predicted this person would have.

389
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Speaker 5: They'd be a white male in their twenties or thirties, single,

390
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 5: living alone. They may have an occupation which involves travel,

391
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 5: like sales, a truck driver, or construction. They're educated, and

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Speaker 5: this is the one that actually gives me chills. They

393
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Speaker 5: may not have killed before, but they will kill again.

394
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean, obviously we now know that Heidi

395
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 3: was the first of what is predicted to have been

396
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Speaker 3: seventeen victims.

397
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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's true, but it's also a really interesting and

398
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,360
Speaker 5: useful way of looking at a case like this to

399
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,360
Speaker 5: turn your attention to when you've reached a dead end

400
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 5: trying to look at information about the victim, to try

401
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 5: and think if you can find the person who did it,

402
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 5: and if that would help you identify this person.

403
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 3: Do you have kind of any other tips when it

404
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,360
Speaker 3: comes to foyers and getting that sort of information from

405
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 3: authorities or I guess even the web.

406
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Speaker 5: I would say my biggest tip is persistence. It's not

407
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 5: an easy and it's not a quick process, and you

408
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 5: will reach a lot of dead ends and rejections, but

409
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 5: it is so worth it for the small glimmers of

410
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 5: information that you do get.

411
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Speaker 1: I would also say, befriend people.

412
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Speaker 5: What you're coming up against is often a lot of

413
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 5: bureaucracy and a lot of people who, even though your

414
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 5: interest in this case is huge and finding out details

415
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 5: is really important to you, is just one of a

416
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,120
Speaker 5: million other things they're doing. So if you can get

417
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 5: a friend on the inside or someone who recognizes who

418
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,199
Speaker 5: you are and will help you, that's also going to

419
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 5: be really useful.

420
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just always send that extra email to the

421
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 3: medical examiners. Okay, so we're at the point in the

422
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 3: investigation where you hopefully have a hunch as to who

423
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 3: your dough might be, like the Hopeworld detectives when they

424
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 3: discovered Susie Spencer's arrest report. When you make that connection,

425
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 3: like Maddie said, it is honestly one of the best

426
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 3: and most exciting feelings in the world. But what do

427
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 3: you do now and how do you prove it? That's

428
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:42,239
Speaker 3: after the break, so you think you know who your

429
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 3: dough is, but proving it is an entirely different ballgame.

430
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 3: The first port of call is to contact the agency

431
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 3: like the police department who's handling the doe case and

432
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,439
Speaker 3: the missing person's case if there is one. Maddie, how

433
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 3: do you go about doing that.

434
00:24:58,160 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 5: The first thing to do would be look at name

435
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 5: and see if there is a detective or an agency

436
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 5: attached to the case, and there should also hopefully be

437
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 5: contact details, or you can just look at what jurisdiction

438
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 5: your case should probably come under, and then contact someone

439
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 5: at the police station there. A big tip for this

440
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 5: is when you do it, try and get someone's name

441
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 5: or someone that will check back in with you if

442
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 5: there are any new developments. Having a contact like that

443
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 5: means that you'll probably be able to stay updated on

444
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 5: the case, and that.

445
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: Was just more likely to help you.

446
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 3: So once you've spoken to the detectives in charge of

447
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 3: the case, you do kind of need to leave it

448
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 3: with them and hope that they look into it. Detectives

449
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 3: will then investigate it further and if they think it's viable,

450
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 3: they can compare the DNA of the dough with a

451
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 3: family member of the missing person. This is actually what

452
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 3: the Hopeworld detectives did after they figured out that the

453
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 3: arrest record they found of Susan Spencer was actually listed

454
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 3: under a false name. They instead matched up the mugshot

455
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 3: with a missing person's photo of Heidi Bulch and then

456
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 3: they track down Heidie's family and compare the family's DNA

457
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 3: with the remains they found on the Hope Well golf

458
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 3: course in nineteen eighty nine. But there is another similar

459
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 3: route that deploys the use of DNA, and that's called

460
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 3: complicatedly genetic genealogy. Maddie, What does that actually mean and

461
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 3: how can you use it to identify a dough?

462
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 5: Put simply, genetic genealogy is the combination of genetic analysis,

463
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 5: so looking at DNA and the study of family trees,

464
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 5: and then using pretty standard historical investigation to find out

465
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 5: more about that.

466
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 3: Okay, So if you were to kind of apply that

467
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 3: to an actual situation, So say you've found a dough,

468
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 3: what would people then do to try and study that

469
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 3: in a genetic genealogy sort of context.

470
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 5: So what you could do is take the DNA data

471
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 5: from the dough and then enter it into a website

472
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 5: like twenty three in meters or another one of those

473
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 5: big genetic databases, and then you can see if there's

474
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 5: any matches. Obviously, in a dream world, a perfect match

475
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 5: with a parent would immediately appear and then you could

476
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 5: contact that person maybe and you have identified them, but

477
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 5: it could be a sibling.

478
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 1: It could be a very distant relative.

479
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 5: But what it might do is start to build out

480
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 5: a family tree, which you can then investigate through other

481
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 5: resources and get closer and closer to identifying who this

482
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 5: person is.

483
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 3: I mean that sounds amazing, the idea that you can

484
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 3: just put some DNA data in and then, you know,

485
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 3: pop outcomes a bunch of relatives and you whittle your

486
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 3: way down into identifying the person. Other benefits outside of that,

487
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 3: you must get a lot of information from DNA.

488
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 5: I think it can really help with narrowing down locations

489
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 5: that they're from. Further, might help you identify their ancestral homeland.

490
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 5: I mean the dream is that there are living relatives

491
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 5: and that they're people happy to speak to you, or

492
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 5: their people who you could find out more about and

493
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 5: then find out the identity of your dough.

494
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 3: I guess one of the big downsides is that you

495
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 3: can only work with what's in the system, can't you.

496
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 3: It really relies on people having put their DNA data

497
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 3: into the system in the first place, so that there

498
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 3: can be connections.

499
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

500
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 5: I think, like so much of this research, it relies

501
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 5: on community participation. But there are a couple of other

502
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 5: drawbacks too. Another big one is concerns over privacy. Not

503
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 5: everyone feels comfortable uploading their DNA and for that information

504
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 5: to be owned by another website. Understandably, there's also the

505
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 5: testing isn't perfect, the results can sometimes be a little misleading.

506
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 5: But one of the biggest drawbacks is the costs. Actually,

507
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 5: at one point on Series two, we considered extracting some

508
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 5: DNA from Heidie's grave in Heart Island when thought she

509
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 5: was there, and not only did the thought that just

510
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 5: seem kind of prohibitively gruesome, but also it's incredibly expensive.

511
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 5: And this is something I would say isn't necessarily accessible

512
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 5: to just the average person trying to look into a case.

513
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's also just something that's quite hard to

514
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 3: do on your own, isn't it. And so I guess

515
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 3: like the one thing I would say there is, if

516
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 3: that is a route that you're wanting to go down,

517
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 3: there are volunteers at charities that specialize in this that

518
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 3: will genuinely be happy to help you out. They can't

519
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 3: take on every case, but people like DNA Doe do

520
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 3: this every single day. They're the charity that we partnered with,

521
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 3: and they're really great at responding to inquiries or just

522
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 3: like perhaps giving you some advice, so do reach out

523
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 3: to them. I hope our tips have been useful, But

524
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 3: the truth is there is no one way to identify

525
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 3: a dough. Each new clue will open up a new

526
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 3: rabbit hole to fall down, and you've just got to

527
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 3: dive in Alice in Wonderland style. Get obsessed with the

528
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 3: necklace and finding out where it's from. Fixate on the

529
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 3: location the dough was discovered, spend weeks pouring over small turns.

530
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 2: Of phrases in news reports from the time.

531
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 3: When I was trying to solve our dough case from

532
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 3: seasons one and two. I was deep in those kinds

533
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 3: of rabbit holes for a year and a half. At

534
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 3: points I had to accept for my own sanity that

535
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 3: maybe I'd never know who she was, or perhaps I would,

536
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 3: but I'd never be able to prove it and share

537
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 3: her story.

538
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 2: With listeners like you.

539
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 3: It felt like it was only at the last moment,

540
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 3: when budgets were dwindling Faith was in crisis about to

541
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,719
Speaker 3: put out a show with no resolution, that we actually

542
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 3: found the definitive proof that we needed. So my final

543
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 3: piece of advice to you is to just have some faith.

544
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 3: Sometimes new evidence can emerge and change everything, like that

545
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 3: confession from Joelrih. Sometimes one new contact will give you

546
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 3: access to materials that you've been trying to get for years.

547
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 3: That's what happened for us, So good luck until next time.

548
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 3: Hold your Girlfriend's Tight. The Girlfriend's Guide is produced by

549
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 3: Novel for iHeart Podcasts. For more from Novel, visit novel

550
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 3: dot Audio. This episode is produced and hosted by me

551
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 3: Anna Sinfield. Our assistant producer is Madeline Parr and we've

552
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 3: had some fantastic additional production by Lee Meyer, Leona Hamid,

553
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 3: and Zaiana Yusuf. Max O'Brien is our executive producer. Production

554
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 3: management from Shrie Houston and Charlotte Wolf. Sound design, mixing

555
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 3: and scoring by Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander. Music supervision

556
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 3: by me Anna Sinfield and Nicholas Alexander. Original music composed

557
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 3: and performed by Louisa Gerstein and produced by Louisa Gerstein

558
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 3: and you guessed it Nicholas Alexander. The series artwork was

559
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 3: designed by Christina Limcool. Story development by me Ana Sinfield.

560
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 3: Willard Foxton is creative director our executive producers at iHeart

561
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 3: are Katrina Norvell.

562
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: And Nicki Etour.

563
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 3: Special thanks to Ali Cantor, Carrie Lieberman, and Will Pearson

564
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 3: at iHeart Podcasts, as well as Carl Frankel and the

565
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 3: whole team at WME. And special thanks to Daniel Laskrin

566
00:32:34,480 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 3: for putting on your best detective voice