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Speaker 1: A good morning everyone. This is Chuck here on a

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Speaker 1: Saturday with a curated selection of one of my favorite episodes.

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Speaker 1: This is bp D colon the Worst Disorder or not

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Speaker 1: a disorder at All. This is all about borderline personality

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Speaker 1: disorder and it's pretty fascinating stuff and I hope you

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Speaker 1: guys enjoy it. Welcome to Stuff you should know, a

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and Chuck's

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Speaker 2: here too. It's just the two of us and that's

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Speaker 2: cool because this is stuff you should know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Jerry's got the week off and she said press on, dudes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: party party on Wayne.

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Speaker 2: That was also from Bill and Ted's excellent Adventure. Wasn't

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Speaker 2: it Party On?

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Speaker 1: No? Was it?

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Speaker 3: I think?

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Speaker 1: So?

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Speaker 3: I can see George Carlin saying it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm probably wrong.

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Speaker 3: I'm probably wrong.

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Speaker 2: So, Chuck, we're talking today about something we've kind of

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Speaker 2: touched on before. But when we touched on it, we're like,

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Speaker 2: this is something that deserves its own episode for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're talking. This is another in our suite on

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Speaker 1: mental health conditions, and boy, we've got a lot of them,

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Speaker 1: but we still got more to go. Yeah, we do

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Speaker 1: you know, and I think these are important shows, and

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Speaker 1: every time we do these, I feel like we get

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Speaker 1: good feedback on people who suffer from these conditions and

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Speaker 1: say thanks for either educating me and or getting the

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Speaker 1: word out to people who may be a little, uh,

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Speaker 1: what's the word ignorant about some of the stuff.

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Speaker 2: As Michael Jackson would have said, you're ignorant about this?

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Speaker 1: What's that from?

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Speaker 3: He just used that word a lot.

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Speaker 2: Oh really yeah, But regardless, that has nothing to do

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Speaker 2: with anything when you ment just now that people like

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Speaker 2: kind of wrote in or write in when we do.

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Speaker 3: Episodes like this.

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Speaker 2: We did our emotional pain episode and we mentioned a

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Speaker 2: borderline personality disorder. A lot of people wrote in, Well,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to say a lot, but some people

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Speaker 2: wrote in and they said, you know, thank you for

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Speaker 2: treating it compassionately, because when most people talk about it,

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Speaker 2: they talk about it like they despise it, or they

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Speaker 2: despise people with BPD. And the more you look into

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Speaker 2: the more you realize, like, wow, this is maybe one

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Speaker 2: of the hardest mental illnesses that you can possibly have.

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Speaker 2: And I think we kind of said that in the

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Speaker 2: Emotional Pain episode. But if I didn't know it before

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Speaker 2: I definitely do now after doing this research.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's also clear that it's one that somehow

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Speaker 1: seems to garner the least amount of empathy, right, not

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Speaker 1: only among just people who you know may or may

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Speaker 1: not know much about it, but even clinicians and therapists

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Speaker 1: as that stuff you sent me like a lot of

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Speaker 1: times try to avoid or severely limit the number of

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Speaker 1: patients they have that they treat with BPD, which makes

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Speaker 1: it even more sad because it is a really tough one.

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Speaker 1: I guess we'll just define it kind of off the bat,

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Speaker 1: and you know, a lot of this episode will kind

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Speaker 1: of be defining it in different ways because it's fairly complex.

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Speaker 1: But it is a what's known as a cluster B

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Speaker 1: personality disorder, which is in the anti social personality disorder

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Speaker 1: category along with histrionic personality disorder and narcissistic personality. I'm

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Speaker 1: just going to start saying PD.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, PDS. It will make it sound like, you know,

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Speaker 2: you're talking about yet.

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Speaker 1: More narcissistic PD, but it seems like a lot of

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Speaker 1: what it can be is sometimes a disorder of perception.

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Speaker 1: And while there are very real things that do that

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Speaker 1: can trigger people with BPD a lot of times is

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Speaker 1: the way things are perceived incorrectly, either about themselves or

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Speaker 1: about others or others actions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I saw a lot of people confuse borderline

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Speaker 2: personality disorder with bipolar, or at least think they're similar.

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Speaker 3: I guess because they go to start with bees.

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Speaker 1: Or something like that.

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Speaker 2: But no, they're not similar. Bipolar has much more of

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Speaker 2: a brain and central nervous system basis, whereas while borderline

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Speaker 2: personality disorder has a component of that, the executive function

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Speaker 2: of the person in their prefrontal cortex either didn't develop

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Speaker 2: in a fully normal way or it's not functioning up

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Speaker 2: to snuff, I guess, more than anything. And the thing

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Speaker 2: that differentiates it from bipolar is it's an assignment of

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Speaker 2: meaning it's psychological as much, if not more than it

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Speaker 2: is physiological.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And also bipolar is characterized, and we did a

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Speaker 1: good episode on that quite a while ago, but it's

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Speaker 1: characterized by like these highs and lows, and then in

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Speaker 1: between those periods they can be relatively stable, whereas with

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Speaker 1: borderline personality disorder it's sort of always there. This one

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Speaker 1: thing you sent me had to really kind of really

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Speaker 1: nail it on the head at the end. Those with

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Speaker 1: bipolar may have a hair trigger kind of response during

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Speaker 1: an episode, whereas when you have a borderline PD, you

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Speaker 1: have a hair trigger response all of the time and

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine helps up that must be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that kind of calls out one of the

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Speaker 2: big hallmarks of BPD, which is it's emotional dysregulation. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: things that would affect other people a little bit, maybe

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Speaker 2: not at all, stuff that most people let roll off

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Speaker 2: of their back, right, could set somebody with BPD off

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Speaker 2: into a rage that.

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Speaker 3: Could last days.

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Speaker 1: Potentially.

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Speaker 2: They also might use self harm it's called non suicidal

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Speaker 2: self injury to kind of externalize the pain because the

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Speaker 2: emotional dysregulation is so profound, they don't know what they're feeling.

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Speaker 2: They just know they're feeling everything all at once, and

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Speaker 2: it's kind of like standing in an ocean and a

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Speaker 2: huge wave hits you and you're just you're as profoundly

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Speaker 2: enveloped by emotion at that moment as you are by

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Speaker 2: a wave when it just completely knocks you off for

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Speaker 2: feet and sweeps you away.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there was another and we'll talk about her in

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Speaker 1: great detail. Her name is Marcia Lenahan or is it

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Speaker 1: Line Han.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna go with Lenahan.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she as we'll see as someone who not only

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Speaker 1: suffered from BPD but kind of pioneered the treatment of BPD.

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Speaker 1: But she said, it's like having third degree burns on

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Speaker 1: ninety percent of your body metaphorically, So you're lacking emotional

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Speaker 1: skin and you feel agony at the slightest touch or movement.

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Speaker 1: And since you did mention self harm, non suicidal self harm.

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Speaker 1: It also people with BPD have a suicide rate of

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Speaker 1: was it like fifty times higher than average in the population. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so this is this is no joke. This is a

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Speaker 1: very hardcore disorder that bears more empathy and understanding.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 2: Let's go back to the beginning, shall we, Because borderline

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Speaker 2: personality disorder is one of those terms that has taken

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Speaker 2: on its own meaning in the general population, but if

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Speaker 2: you stop and think about it, it doesn't really reveal

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Speaker 2: much about what it's describing.

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Speaker 3: It's just one of those.

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Speaker 1: Not at all frustratingly So, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And that goes back to a jerk named Adolph Stern

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Speaker 2: who really jerked it up back in nineteen thirty eight.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he was a psychoanalyst and he basically I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you didn't know what it was, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: even fully know what it was, I always wondered what

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Speaker 1: borderline meant. And it very simply meant and means, this

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Speaker 1: is Stern saying, you're not quite on the psychotic level

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Speaker 1: and you're not quite psycho neeurotic. You're basically on the

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Speaker 1: border between those conditions while encompassing a bit of each.

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Speaker 1: So we're just going to call it borderline.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and psychosis is what we would still consider psychosis,

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Speaker 2: but under psychoanalysis, psychoneurosis is what we call anxiety depression,

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Speaker 2: those kinds of mental illnesses. So I guess Adolf Stern

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Speaker 2: wasn't really that big of a jerk, because he really

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Speaker 2: kind of did combine him appropriately. It was Auto Kernberg

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Speaker 2: who was the serious jerk in this situation.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so he was a psychoanalyst in the mid nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 1: so that's you know, like forty something years later, and

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Speaker 1: he described it as an unstable personality and organized conception

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Speaker 1: of the self. And this is just when it was

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Speaker 1: sort of starting to become more and more kind of

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Speaker 1: talked about, and officially I think five years after that

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Speaker 1: was in the DSM version three.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's pretty quick for something you just

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Speaker 2: started to identify and five years later it makes it

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Speaker 2: in the DSM. Because they don't churn those dsms out

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Speaker 2: like you know, every few months. It takes years to

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Speaker 2: put one together. So Kurenberg seemed to have stumbled onto

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Speaker 2: something that was worth looking at, very very very quickly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And isn't there a sort of movement or belief

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Speaker 1: now that it's a lot of people think it's something

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Speaker 1: that is like a diagnosis you shouldn't even give, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's we'll talk about that.

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Speaker 2: I think we can kind of pepper it throughout, you know, Okay,

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Speaker 2: But yes, there is a school of thought that basically

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Speaker 2: says BPD is not a personality disorder. It's not even

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Speaker 2: a mood disorder, although some people say it would better

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Speaker 2: be characterized is a mood disorder. They say it's a

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Speaker 2: cluster of symptoms that overlap with a bunch of different

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Speaker 2: actual disorders, and that the problem with that, You say,

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Speaker 2: who cares? You're identifying people a group of people whose

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Speaker 2: rate of suicide is fifty times a general population, that

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Speaker 2: alone is worth like identifying and helping those people out.

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Speaker 2: But what they're saying, is number one. BPD has gotten

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Speaker 2: such a bad name in the general population that you're

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Speaker 2: literally stigmatizing somebody when you give them that diagnosis. It

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Speaker 2: is an enormously heavy weight you put on somebody. We say,

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Speaker 2: I'm a trained psychiatrist, I know what I'm talking about,

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Speaker 2: and you have borderline personality disorder.

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Speaker 3: Everybody step back.

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Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, I mean it's it's almost in line with

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Speaker 1: saying someone is a sociopath. It's different things, but as

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Speaker 1: far as like the stigma goes.

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Speaker 2: Very much, so, yeah, for sure, that's a great analogy. Actually,

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Speaker 2: so some people are like, Okay, it's stigmatizing, but even

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Speaker 2: more than that, just the science isn't necessarily there, like

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Speaker 2: we're saying it's symptoms rather than an actual disorder. And

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Speaker 2: then apparently the Working Group for Personality Disorders for the

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Speaker 2: DSM five that's the most recent one, they actually said,

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Speaker 2: we're not sure that this should be a categorical disorder,

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Speaker 2: which is the type that you either have it or

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Speaker 2: you don't. They suggested it should be dimensional, which means

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Speaker 2: that it exists on a spectrum. Right, so you can

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Speaker 2: have a little bit of BPD, a lot of BPD,

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Speaker 2: or right in the middle or whatever, and that got rejected.

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Speaker 2: And now so it's a categorical diagnosis where if you

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Speaker 2: don't have BPD, you don't have BPD. If you don't

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Speaker 2: fit the criteria, if you do, you got BPD.

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Speaker 1: Right, And we'll talk about the criterion in a second,

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Speaker 1: but we do want to sort of reintroduce Marcia Lenihan, who,

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Speaker 1: like I said, was a real pioneer for her work

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Speaker 1: in the treatment and recognition of BPD. Very late in

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Speaker 1: her life, revealed that she suffered from BPD. After you know,

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Speaker 1: patients and friends encouraged her to come forward and she said, basically,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm gonna do it. I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: die a coward, is what she said, but for the

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Speaker 1: longest time was not out with that information. Was born

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Speaker 1: in Oklahoma in I guess the fifties, and in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixties in high school, was diagnosed with schizophrenia, drugged up,

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Speaker 1: give an electro shock, hospitalized, was practicing self harm of

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Speaker 1: all kinds, and then had it. Sounds like a not

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Speaker 1: a moment of clarity, but a pretty profound religious experience.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the only thing missing was a visit from Saint Michael.

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Speaker 1: Pretty much I mean, she's Catholic, and after this religious

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Speaker 1: experience she was able to which you know, had a

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Speaker 1: lot to do with self love. But after this she

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Speaker 1: was able to still have these emotions that she had before,

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Speaker 1: but managed it to the point where she wasn't practicing

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Speaker 1: self harm. And did she come up with the term

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Speaker 1: radical acceptance or did she just buy into that.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if that was a descriptor of hers

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Speaker 3: or not.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I don't think she came up with that. But basically,

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Speaker 1: as you know, radical acceptance is like, hey, listen, this

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Speaker 1: is how things are with me, this is how things

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Speaker 1: are with the world. I accept this, and I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to compare this to what I think the reality

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Speaker 1: should be or what other people think it should be.

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Speaker 2: There's a huge butt that follows that though, But but

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Speaker 2: but I am going to do what I can to

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Speaker 2: change those things about myself.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So that is the basis of a type of cognitive

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Speaker 2: behavioral therapy that she came up with called dialectical behavioral therapy,

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Speaker 2: and it is it's based in radical acceptance and the

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Speaker 2: desire to examine and change how you interact with the

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Speaker 2: world externally. And it's basically the gold standard for treating

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Speaker 2: a borderline personality disorder it right.

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Speaker 1: Now, Yeah, and it seems like it really works. I

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Speaker 1: saw that it was kind of the only proven treatment

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Speaker 1: to reduce suicidal behavior, which is, you know, at the

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Speaker 1: tail end of what a lot of people experience with BPD.

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Speaker 1: And the good news and we'll talk about treatment later,

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Speaker 1: but the good news is if you have VPD or

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Speaker 1: know someone that does, you can get better. And they

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Speaker 1: have proven and shown time and time again now that

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Speaker 1: through the treatments that we'll discuss later, it is absolutely

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Speaker 1: something that someone can get a hold of in most cases, right,

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Speaker 1: which is great.

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Speaker 3: It is great.

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Speaker 2: I mean, like, for as bad of a stigma as

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Speaker 2: BPD has, the idea that like it has a very

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Speaker 2: high success rate of treatment is pretty encouraging. So Lenahan's

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Speaker 2: basis of her understanding or her definition of borderline personality

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Speaker 2: disorder is that it's biosocial that people who have BPD

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Speaker 2: are either genetically or biologically predisposed to having BPD, but

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Speaker 2: not everybody who has that predisposition is going to be

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Speaker 2: triggered into developing BPD. It takes basically a biological substrate

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Speaker 2: for BPD, usually your prefrontal cortex hasn't developed in a

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Speaker 2: certain way, and so your executive function isn't functioning like

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Speaker 2: an executive should. That gets joined together with a trigger,

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Speaker 2: usually mistreatment, whether it's abuse, neglect, invalidation by your parents

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Speaker 2: as a kid, and you put those things together and

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Speaker 2: very often it results in what you be diagnosed with later.

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Speaker 1: As Yeah, and man, one thing I really took away

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Speaker 1: from this, and this is something that you know, Emily

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Speaker 1: and I and and most parents that I know are

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Speaker 1: way into, is uh oh, you got to validate your kids.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's new, which is crazy, but it's.

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Speaker 1: It's Yeah, you got to validate their emotions and validate

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Speaker 1: their experiences and their feelings, even if it's something that

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Speaker 1: you don't think is uh like has the most relevance

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Speaker 1: or whatever, or even if like the kid is wrong

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Speaker 1: about something or like emotionally wrong, like, you still have

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Speaker 1: to validate that and then talk them through it. What

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Speaker 1: you can't do is just discount a kid's feelings, because

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Speaker 1: that's like telling them that their truth isn't real, and

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Speaker 1: that's damaging.

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Speaker 2: I know, and doing parenting right sounds like a waking

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Speaker 2: nightmare to me.

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Speaker 1: Doing wise parenting.

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Speaker 2: Parenting correctly, Yeah, Nah. I can't imagine the exhaustion along

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Speaker 2: combined with the fear of just misstepping once or twice

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Speaker 2: and then there you go.

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Speaker 3: How'd you kid up for life?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? What you gotta do is, in my experience, is

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Speaker 1: like you can't beat yourself up too much because parenting fails,

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Speaker 1: you can really go down a rabbit hole of your

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Speaker 1: own I'll bet depression if you if you screw up,

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Speaker 1: and you can't do that because kids are resilient and

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Speaker 1: you just got to, like you've got to prove to

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Speaker 1: them that you can like pick yourself up and move

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Speaker 1: on and do better, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't think Lenahan's idea is that it

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Speaker 2: just takes one or two missteps. It takes like a parent,

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Speaker 2: he was a genuinely bad parent. Very frequently they have

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Speaker 2: BPD themselves. Yeah, and that is a real challenge to

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Speaker 2: parenting well in and of itself. But you don't have

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Speaker 2: to have had a parent with BPD to develop BPD.

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Speaker 2: But typically it's a parent that is not at all

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Speaker 2: meeting your needs, especially emotionally. And I say, we take

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Speaker 2: a break and we'll come back and talk about how

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Speaker 2: you would be diagnosed with BPD. What do you think,

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Speaker 2: let's do it, okay, Chuck. So we said that BPD's

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Speaker 2: in the d S M five. It's a personality disorder.

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Speaker 2: And just to differentiate real quick, a mood disorder describes

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Speaker 2: patterns and feelings like you have mood swings in that

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Speaker 2: you know highs and lows, and that's pretty reliable that

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Speaker 2: you're going to have it one way or another. Personality

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Speaker 2: disorder focuses more on how you relate to others, and

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Speaker 2: that definitely makes sense to me that you would consider

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Speaker 2: a BPD of personality disorder.

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Speaker 1: Then, Yeah, that seems to be a really key thing

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Speaker 1: is that it really disturbs your relationships. So to be diagnosed,

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Speaker 1: you fit at least five out of the following nine

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Speaker 1: that we're gonna read for you. Chronic feelings of emptiness.

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Speaker 2: And that's emptiness feeling like isolated or lonely or hopeless.

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Speaker 1: Sure, emotional instability and reaction to day to day events.

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Speaker 1: That's the thing we were talking about earlier, Like saying

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Speaker 1: mountains out of molehills seems slightly reductive, but that's kind

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Speaker 1: of a basic way to say it. Frantic efforts to

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Speaker 1: avoid abandonment, whether or not they're real or imagined as Yeah,

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Speaker 1: as we'll see abandonment issues, and this very very much

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Speaker 1: includes emotional abandonment as a really big precursor unstable self

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Speaker 1: image or sense of self.

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Speaker 2: What else, Impulsive behavior is usually a big one, and

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Speaker 2: you have to have impulsive behavior and at least two

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Speaker 2: areas that are harming your day to day life, like

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Speaker 2: an eating disorder and gambling addiction or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Another one is this is based on and so this

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Speaker 2: is where some psychiatrists would be like, see this is

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Speaker 2: not this is this is a symptom that we're talking

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Speaker 2: about here, but it's unstable and intense interpersonal relationships. I mean,

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Speaker 2: like you're really really close to somebody for you know,

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Speaker 2: a couple of days, and then they do something you

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Speaker 2: don't like and they're the worst person in the world.

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Speaker 2: And it can happen very very quickly with people with BPD,

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Speaker 2: and if you stick around and stay in that person's life,

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Speaker 2: you can find yourself walking on eggshells very quickly because

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Speaker 2: you don't want them to turn on you all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden. So that's a huge one. If you have

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Speaker 2: a lot of unstable, intense relationships with people, that's just

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Speaker 2: kind of the MO that is usually a big giveaway

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Speaker 2: with BPD.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the last three recurrent suicidal or self harming behaviors.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about that a little bit, stress related paranoia

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Speaker 1: or dissociative symptoms, like feeling like the self of the

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Speaker 1: world isn't real. It feels like that's probably at the

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Speaker 1: far end of the spectrum, or the most severe end.

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Speaker 1: And then when we missed earlier was inappropriate and intense

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Speaker 1: anger or difficulty controlling anger.

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Speaker 2: I didn't miss it. That was purposeful, Okay. I wanted

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Speaker 2: to end with that big one.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, speak to it.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of I always hate saying those qualifiers.

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Speaker 2: It's just so easy to say, but I know I

364
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Speaker 2: think it perks people's ears up, like, oh, this person

365
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Speaker 2: doesn't know what they're talking about.

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Speaker 3: So let me rephrase that.

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Speaker 2: I have seen that there are schools of thought regarding

368
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Speaker 2: borderline personality disorder that it is a rage response to trauma. Okay,

369
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Speaker 2: that that is your response to unresolved trauma. That's how

370
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Speaker 2: you learn to deal with those feelings and those emotions

371
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Speaker 2: is to rage at people. Because rage is as much

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Speaker 2: a hallmark of BPD as fear of abandonment is right,

373
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Speaker 2: and that's why some people are critical of including it

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Speaker 2: as a categorical diagnosis in the d s M five.

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Speaker 2: They're saying, you're pathologizing rage. No, you just need to

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Speaker 2: teach people how to identify their emotions and how to

377
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Speaker 2: express them in a more appropriate, less hostile manner, and

378
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Speaker 2: then that's how you would treat somebody with BPD, or

379
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Speaker 2: not even with BPD, somebody with a rage disorder. But

380
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Speaker 2: some people think that that is what what people are

381
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Speaker 2: mistaking for BPD.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I got youa okay, interesting, Uh, you're gonna to

383
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Speaker 1: be diagnosed, Like I said, five of those nine, it'll

384
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Speaker 1: probably be you know, like you'll be talking to a

385
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Speaker 1: psychologist or someone in an interview. You might fill out

386
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Speaker 1: a questionnaire or something they're going to make interesting right

387
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Speaker 1: click click click click, or they may speak to your

388
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Speaker 1: family or something like that. It can be difficult to

389
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Speaker 1: diagnose and there, like you said, there's there's a lot

390
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Speaker 1: of overlap between you know, things like anxiety and depression

391
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Speaker 1: and things like PTSD and eating disorders, a lot of comorbidities.

392
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Speaker 1: So I get why people can have issues with like

393
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Speaker 1: this diagnosis rather than it's like a cluster of symptoms

394
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Speaker 1: of other things. But I don't know. If you group

395
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Speaker 1: that altogether then it and call it its own thing,

396
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 1: then I don't know. I'm not sure I see the

397
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Speaker 1: harm in that.

398
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Speaker 2: Again, I think it's the stigma. And then also it

399
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 2: might be distracting from treating the other underlying.

400
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Speaker 1: Stuff, maybe because there also isn't and we'll talk about pharmaceuticals,

401
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 1: but there isn't a specific pharmaceutical for BPD.

402
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 2: That's another clue that some people point to that it's

403
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 2: not it's it's we're mistaking it somehow. And I don't

404
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 2: want to like overstate that school of thought. It is

405
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 2: widely considered like an accepted diagnosis sorderline personality disorder is,

406
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Speaker 2: so I don't want to make it seem.

407
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Speaker 3: Like the cracks are in the facade. It's about a

408
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 3: chromo any day now.

409
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Speaker 2: Well, my point is people make some pretty good points

410
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,360
Speaker 2: about how well we understand it or how well we're

411
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 2: defining it, and we're possibly missing some component of it.

412
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, And isn't that stuff debate usually or I guess

413
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 1: it should be, And I hope it's couched in how

414
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 1: to best treat people and help people? Right, Yes, Rather

415
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,919
Speaker 1: than just like poopooing ideas.

416
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. But I mean again,

417
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 2: if we come to this place where even if if

418
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Speaker 2: a BPD is the center of a giant ven diagram

419
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Speaker 2: of a bunch.

420
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Speaker 3: Of different disorders, Yeah yeah, and.

421
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 2: We're mistaking that center overlap of all of them as

422
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 2: its own thing. If you zero in on that group

423
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 2: and they have a fifty times higher rate of suicide

424
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 2: than the general population, again, that is worth zeroing in on,

425
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 2: you know, as its own thing. And like you said,

426
00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 2: dialectical behavior therapy is focused initially on individual sessions that

427
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: are that are that are aimed to control that behavior

428
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:06,959
Speaker 2: suicide aalogy.

429
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure. You did mention earlier as far

430
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 1: as causes go, that sometimes there is a genetic link,

431
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 1: but it seems that it's not really the disorder that

432
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: is like maybe passed from parent to child, but some

433
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 1: of those traits and maybe that's because it is sort

434
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,479
Speaker 1: of a cluster. Sometimes you can't you know, you can

435
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 1: have BPD and come from like a pretty good, you know,

436
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: stable upbringing, but that seems to be the outlier, and

437
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: it seems to be that like most people that end

438
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: up suffering from this had a pretty lousy childhood.

439
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they were either neglected or just kind of

440
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 2: saddled with emotionally unavailable parents who just weren't really there

441
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 2: for them. Didn't go to their dance recital kind of thing,

442
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 2: never went to a single one. Excessive control. It sounds

443
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 2: very Freudian, but I saw one classic example as an

444
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: absent father and a domineering mother, and it's like, how

445
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 2: many times have you guys trtted that one out? But

446
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 2: apparently it really does have a screwy effect on people

447
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 2: as a kid. And then also if your parents or

448
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 2: parent had a mood disordered themselves, or misused substances, that

449
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 2: would probably have affected their parenting as well.

450
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, this also made me think about like parenting of

451
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 1: old versus parenting now and parents can There are still,

452
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 1: of course, a huge range of bad parents these days.

453
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that everyone's doing it right now, but

454
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 1: it definitely seems like things turned a corner and parents

455
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: are trying a lot harder these days, and like sort

456
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: of the old days of like, oh, you know, kids

457
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: raised themselves and you can ignore them and blah blah blah,

458
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that I mean, I know that still happens,

459
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: but it just seems like that happened a lot more

460
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: back in the day, and maybe in the future things

461
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: like this will be less and less.

462
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the hope for sure.

463
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: I know that's sort of a basic, sort of an

464
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: elementary way of looking at it, But I just feel

465
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,199
Speaker 1: like parents are more aware of stuff these days, and

466
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 1: like you know, people of our generation and certainly the

467
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 1: generations before that, it was even worse as far as

468
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: parental involvement and parents who either one or the other.

469
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: You know, fathers a lot of times, you know, historically

470
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 1: the ones that are like, no, we're we're not going

471
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 1: to parent because we're doing the work and we're gonna

472
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 1: bring home the paycheck. And so like I had, I've

473
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 1: talked about it before. I had a dad that wasn't

474
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,479
Speaker 1: very involved, but it wasn't like the kind of thing

475
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: where I ended up with BPD because of it, you know, Yeah,

476
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: for sure, if that makes sense.

477
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 2: You raise a question though, in my mind, I wonder

478
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: what percentage of boomer grandparents are allowed to see their grandchildren.

479
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: Well, bet it's higher than you think are allowed to

480
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: or not.

481
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: Allowed to, like just don't have contact with their grandkids.

482
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, or it's very limited and supervised. And so actually

483
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 1: though a lot of those grandparents, all of a sudden,

484
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: are the most doting, and it's kind of like, I know,

485
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: some parents are like, oh, okay, well this is great

486
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: yeah when I was a kid, right, Sure.

487
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 2: For sure, But also I think in some of the

488
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,719
Speaker 2: cases that the more they dote, they're actually also undermining

489
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 2: the parenting of their kids.

490
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 1: Yes, and imagine it can be very painful for a

491
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: parent who had a unattentive parent to now have that

492
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: parent be a very intentive grandparent.

493
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 2: You have BPD, I would guess that would be a

494
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: rage inducing trigger.

495
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: I imagine it would be.

496
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 2: So there are plenty of other ways that you could

497
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 2: probably develop VPD. Another very classic one is any kind

498
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: of abuse emotional, sexual, physical abuse at the hands of

499
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 2: your parent or a caregiver. And they say that about

500
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: eighty percent of people with BPD experience some level of

501
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: childhood trauma, whether it was emotional neglect or some sort

502
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 2: of abuse.

503
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 3: It is.

504
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 2: It's a huge factor, a huge risk factor in developing BPD,

505
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 2: for sure.

506
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And it seems to be exacerbated if you're

507
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: a kid who is maybe you're just innately a little

508
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: more unsure of yourself or a little more vulnerable as

509
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: a person, and then that is reinforced with a parent

510
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: who is not validating your experience and your emotion as

511
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: a kid. So you're already starting back sort of behind

512
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: the eight ball, and then your parents are making it worse,

513
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: and so that can definitely easy toward that condition.

514
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 2: Well, it's like that's a chicken or the egg question though,

515
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 2: like were you like that you know already and your

516
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 2: parents is reinforcing it, or did you get that kind

517
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: of did you learn to do that because of your parents' behavior.

518
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 2: It's like a chicken or the egg, but parent the disorder.

519
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: Right, you know.

520
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 2: But we said earlier that there's also believed to be

521
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 2: a biological component to it too, that it's not all psychological,

522
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 2: and it does seem to have something to do with

523
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 2: executive function in the brain. One of the big things

524
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 2: that executive functioning does is it helps you control your emotions,

525
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: not just in accepting things and dealing with them and

526
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 2: moving on, but also your outward display of emotions. If

527
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 2: you don't have executive function, your emotional dysregulation is more

528
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 2: likely to include explosions of anger, uncontrollable anger. And then

529
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 2: one of the things, it's not just BPD that has that,

530
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 2: there's plenty of other disorders that have it. But one

531
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 2: of the key traits of BPD is it can last

532
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: a really long time too.

533
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: Can we make a T shirt that has a chicken

534
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: that says parent across the chicken's chest and then next

535
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: to an egg that says mental disorder? Love it and

536
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: just that's the shirt, no explanation, figure it out or don't.

537
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 2: How about this though, on the back of the shirt,

538
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 2: Mork is coming out of the egg all right to

539
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 2: really confuse people.

540
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: Oh wow, that just really changed things. I like it.

541
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 3: Okay.

542
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: So as far as the number of people who experience BPD,

543
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: it's kind of a wide range, like all this stuff,

544
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: because it's one of those disorders that is a lot

545
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: of people don't admit it or seek treatment, so it's

546
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: really hard to nail it down. But Lybia helped us

547
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: out with this one, and she said zero point five

548
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: percent to six percent, and they find it about four

549
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: times more in women. But they've also found other studies

550
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: are like, no, it's the women who are brave enough

551
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: to come forward and seek treatment, and it happens just

552
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: as much in men.

553
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: I also saw that it's a that's an indictment of

554
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 2: clinicians who basically have to figure out for themselves whether

555
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 2: the person as BPD, and that they're more likely to

556
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: assign it to a woman than a man a male patient.

557
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: Oh interesting.

558
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 2: So regardless, it is very frequently diagnosed, more than you

559
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 2: would think. It's one of the more common serious mental illnesses. Apparently,

560
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 2: people receiving impatient mental health treatment. One in five of

561
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 2: those people are diagnosed with BPD. So it is very prevalent,

562
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 2: at least in inside the clink.

563
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, the mental clink. Yeah, the mental clink. One other

564
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: aspect is a very black and white thinking. You kind

565
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: of talked before about splitting, which is, you know, really

566
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: revering and idolizing somebody and then very quickly despising them.

567
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: And this can happen very very frequently and like several

568
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: times throughout a day even or it can be like

569
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: just a switch that is permanent, like someone you used

570
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: to really like an eyeline, all of a sudden, just

571
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: no more, you despise them, and they're they're on the

572
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: bad person list forever.

573
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's that falls under the larger category of

574
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 2: black and white thinking. It's not just applied to people,

575
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 2: it's events, things, Anything a dandelion can be entirely evil

576
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 2: or the fully good.

577
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 3: And because you see.

578
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 2: Things in people and events as entirely one way or

579
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 2: the other, you set people up for unrealistic expectations. If

580
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: you're like, you're one hundred percent pure and kind person,

581
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 2: and I love you, that person is inevitably going to

582
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 2: let you down in some way, shape or form, sure,

583
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 2: because no one's one hundred percent pure and kind. Similarly,

584
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 2: no one's one hundred percent evil. And most people that

585
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 2: you would label evil as if you have VPD, probably

586
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 2: aren't evil at all. They just did something you really

587
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 2: didn't like. But now to you, that person is evil,

588
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 2: not to be trusted, not you know, they did something wrong.

589
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 2: At their core, they're evil, And that's another huge hallmark

590
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 2: of BPD as well.

591
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean even Darth Vader was once a young boy. Yeah,

592
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: just trying to learn the ways of the force.

593
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 3: But boy did he get pale as he aged.

594
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: He sure did. This can also, this splitting can happen

595
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:25,439
Speaker 1: with yourself. You may vacillate wildly from feeling like you're

596
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 1: you're okay, and that you feel good about yourself and

597
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,240
Speaker 1: you have a little bit of self confidence to really

598
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: loathing yourself. And that's when like things like you know,

599
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: self harm can come into play. Your sense of your

600
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 1: own personality can really change your you know, you could

601
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: very much switch, like kind of do these wild switches

602
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: between your goals in life for or how you want

603
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: to present yourself to the world, or like your values

604
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: and ethics and things like that, and this I'm not

605
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 1: really sure, but it kind of seems like almost like

606
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:02,439
Speaker 1: a sort of audition yourself kind of over and over

607
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 1: sometimes like let me try this new me or whatever,

608
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: or auditioning or trying out a new thing that you

609
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: think might help make sense.

610
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, totally. It's also circumstantial too. They might act

611
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 2: different ways to different people depending on what they think

612
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 2: those people want from them, or yes to impress like

613
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 2: a friend or a new person or something like that.

614
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 2: They might adopt that person's like hobbies and interests. But

615
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 2: I saw it explained as the people who have VPD

616
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 2: and do that that they don't understand where they end

617
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 2: or the other person begins, because they have no idea

618
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 2: what they believe in. They just don't know, so they're

619
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 2: kind of open for suggestions.

620
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 3: Basically interesting.

621
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, should we take a break?

622
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 3: Oh jeez, that came out of left field.

623
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 1: Sorry, Sure, all right, I think it's a good time

624
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: to take a break, and then we're going to come

625
00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: back and talk more about personal relationships. All right, we're

626
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 1: back and talking about borderline personality disorder. And one kind

627
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: of hallmark with someone with BPD is what's called like

628
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: a favorite person, or just a person in their life

629
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: that they have have not necessarily even chosen who they've

630
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: hooked up with. It could be a spouse, it could

631
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: be a partner, it could be a friend or coworker,

632
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: anyone that you really have latched onto as someone maybe

633
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: the only person that you really really trust with yourself.

634
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't think you even trust that person.

635
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 2: You just that's the person you've come to find you

636
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 2: can lean on.

637
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 3: The most, I think.

638
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 2: Okay, But yeah, the FP, for those in the know,

639
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 2: the favorite person is very frequently somebody who is willing

640
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 2: to kind of go along with this, at least for

641
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 2: a while. There's a ton of flattery and admiration and praise,

642
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 2: and all of your greatest points are pointed out all

643
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: the time, but you're also in real danger of letting

644
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 2: that person down and facing that wrath of rage or

645
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,760
Speaker 2: anger or hostility. And if you come back for more,

646
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 2: you're going to find that you, as the favorite person,

647
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 2: might start altering your behavior to fit the person with

648
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 2: BPD's behavior, so you might start considering them when you're

649
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 2: making plans like, oh, we can't go out of town

650
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 2: this weekend because our friend with BPD was going to,

651
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 2: you know, wanted us to come out for their Sunday

652
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 2: picnic or something like that. Right like, you would be

653
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 2: afraid to not go to their picnic, and you generally

654
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 2: end up feeling like you're walking on eggshells. And it's

655
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: a codependent relationship that evolves. The favorite person seems to

656
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 2: be the person who's willing to take it the longest

657
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 2: or the most, and that it's not a permanent thing.

658
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 2: Typically people get burned out on it and eventually abandon

659
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 2: the person with BPD, which is again at the root

660
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 2: of what.

661
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 3: They are fearful of. They're fearful of rejection or abandonment.

662
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 2: The tragedy of the whole thing is that their behavior

663
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 2: almost inevitably guarantees that they will be rejected or abandoned

664
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 2: by the people around them.

665
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sort of self fulfilling feedback loop. Yeah. I

666
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 1: mean it's a big burden for an FP. And if

667
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,359
Speaker 1: you are a spouse or partner of someone and you

668
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: are the FP, that's a lot to manage, and so

669
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: a lot of empathy goes out to those people as

670
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: well when you're altering your own behaviors, like literally things

671
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: like I saw people or like you know, had to

672
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: I've had to step out of like really important meetings

673
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: just to answer a text within ten minutes because I

674
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 1: knew that that would set them off. And just little

675
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: things like that can really add up to someone's burden.

676
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 2: One of the other things that is difficult to deal

677
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 2: with when you're an FP is that person wants you

678
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 2: all of themselves.

679
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 3: They're yeah, rightned.

680
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 2: Very much by other people, so they will try to

681
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 2: isolate you from your other friends and your family so

682
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 2: that they have you all of themselves, not just for time,

683
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 2: I'm sure time is a big part of it, but

684
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 2: also to cut down on any I guess rational explanation

685
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 2: or rational points from those other people, like what are

686
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 2: you doing? Why are you putting up with this? Isolating

687
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 2: them would help cut down on that too.

688
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, if you're an FP, there's always

689
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: the sort of sad and scary possibility that there could

690
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: be a split incident that all of a sudden you

691
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 1: go from being the FP to being the most despised person.

692
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: I would imagine that's something that is probably comes over

693
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: time and is not like a quick thing. It can

694
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: be but it can be all right.

695
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 3: For sure. It can happen. It can turn on a dime.

696
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 2: And the other problem with it as well, Chuck, is

697
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 2: that the person with BPD almost invariably immediately regrets doing

698
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 2: that right, and so they'll make every effort to try

699
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 2: to win the person back, which probably feels pretty gross

700
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 2: for the FP, and they'll say things like I'll never

701
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 2: do that again, like they know what they've just done

702
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 2: is worth regretting, is worth feeling horrible about, because they've

703
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 2: just been abandoned or rejected. They just did it to themselves.

704
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 2: So now they're trying to fix it or mend it.

705
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 2: But it's all just kind of built on, you know,

706
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 2: shinky ground, because it's it's gonna happen again, because it's

707
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 2: impossible for that person not to let the person with

708
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 2: BPD down again.

709
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I get the pression that people with

710
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 1: BPD generally don't have any illusions about themselves because it

711
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 1: is such a struggle.

712
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 2: Well, that is a big problem with not only getting treatment,

713
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 2: but seeking treatment, because when your brain is structured in

714
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 2: a certain way, and ever since you were a little kid,

715
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,879
Speaker 2: you've just responded a certain way to things. Even if

716
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 2: people around you are telling you that is messed up

717
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 2: or that you're being hustle or whatever, to you, that's normal,

718
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 2: that's natural. So it's really really hard to interrogate your

719
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 2: own behavior, let alone change it, because it seems normal

720
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 2: and natural to you. It's not that you need to

721
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 2: change your behavior because you chase somebody away. It's that

722
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 2: that person left to you now you need to go

723
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 2: get them back. So even if you have people around

724
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 2: you telling you, it's going to take a lot of emphasis, repeated,

725
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 2: constant emphasis, that what you're doing right now is abnormal

726
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 2: and harmful and you need to go get help for this.

727
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: That's yeah.

728
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one of the curses of it. They can't

729
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 2: see it. They at least if they can see it.

730
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:07,240
Speaker 2: Most of the time they can't.

731
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: Well, And this is I mean all the mental health

732
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: disorders require a support system, but this one really seems

733
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: to sort of be at the top of the list

734
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: of needing a really solid, vast support system for treatment.

735
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: Like we said, the good news is that treatment works.

736
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: They used to think that personality disorders were untreatable and

737
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 1: that you were just kind of stuck with it. They

738
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: have found that about half the people who are treated,

739
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 1: who seek treatment and are treated no longer meet the

740
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 1: criteria after five to ten years.

741
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 3: Amazing.

742
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that they're you know, they're perfect and

743
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 1: awesome and fixed. It means they can still have some symptoms,

744
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: but they have it under control enough to where they

745
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: don't meet that five out of nine criteria. And that's

746
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 1: what it's really sort of about, I think, is managing

747
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: something that, like you said, that you might have had

748
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: since you were like a baby, to live a productive,

749
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: you know, healthy life.

750
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:10,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's kind of what you're going to learn

751
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 2: in DBT, which again is the gold standard for treating BPD,

752
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 2: is that you're going to be taught these skills how

753
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 2: to deal with disappointment, with being let down, with somebody

754
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 2: not responding to your text. You're going to learn a

755
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 2: different set of skills and how to deal with that

756
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 2: both internally and externally. And one of the things that

757
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,720
Speaker 2: kind of differentiates DBT from other kinds of behavioral therapy

758
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 2: is that there's group sessions, but it's not a group

759
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 2: session that you know, you've seen in a movie like

760
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 2: My Nice Mela was in a movie called No Exit,

761
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 2: and that featured a couple of group sessions. I think

762
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 2: you can still see that on Netflix.

763
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 1: I think so. But it's not like that.

764
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 2: It's more almost like a classroom instead, and then people

765
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 2: get up and practice these skills in front of others

766
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 2: and with others. But it's not like a group therapy

767
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 2: session in the traditional sense. But that's a huge component

768
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 2: of it is group work.

769
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's you know, if it sounds a little

770
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: bit like cognitive behavioral therapy, it is sort of based

771
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 1: on that in part because it's a real and I

772
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: get how it works. It seems like a real sort

773
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:23,399
Speaker 1: of rubber meets the road practical ways of learning new

774
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: behaviors rather than and therapy as a huge part of it.

775
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,879
Speaker 1: But it's not just lets therapy and talk about your

776
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: past until you're blue in the face. It's like, all right,

777
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: we know what's going on, and we think we know

778
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: where it came from. Generally, Now, let's really talk about

779
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: putting this into daily practice, like literally doing things and

780
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 1: having a checklist and putting stuff into practice, which I

781
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 1: think is just I mean not only for DBT, but

782
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: stuff like that is so it so speaks to me

783
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 1: as a good way forward when you have any kinds

784
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 1: of problems, because it's just a practical thing. It's learning

785
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:05,799
Speaker 1: new behaviors.

786
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 2: That's another criticism of BPD as its own disorder, that

787
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 2: DBT can be used to treat all sorts of different

788
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 2: symptoms of all sorts of different disorders. It just makes

789
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 2: sense like that, Yeah, for sure. But there's also another

790
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 2: type of therapy that supposedly works really well for DBT

791
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 2: called psychodynamic therapy, and it is talking about what you

792
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 2: went through as a child, so you're blue in the face,

793
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 2: but it's more about relating to relating that to how

794
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,839
Speaker 2: you deal with people in your current life, people in situations.

795
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 2: It's relating it back to it so that it's not

796
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 2: just one big confusing blob. You understand your own behavior

797
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 2: better as a result of interrogating what you went through

798
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 2: as a kid. And I guess it smells a lot

799
00:45:54,280 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 2: like it believes borderline is like a sponse to trauma

800
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:03,720
Speaker 2: using accur rather than anything else.

801
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you can sort of build out

802
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: your emotional life map, I imagine that's a very helpful

803
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 1: thing to do, you know.

804
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 3: Yeah.

805
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 2: And then one other thing that really kind of underscores

806
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 2: how difficult dealing with people with borderline personality disorder can be.

807
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 3: One of the main components.

808
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 2: Of dialectical behavioral therapy is what's called a therapist consultation team,

809
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 2: which is basically a group of therapists working with patients

810
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 2: with BPD having like a like a blowoff steam session

811
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,879
Speaker 2: about them, right, and reminding one another like, these are

812
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 2: people suffering and we need to have empathy for them.

813
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 2: That's how hard it can be to treat people with BPD.

814
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like I said at the beginning, there are

815
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: therapists that will refuse treatment because all the reasons that

816
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: we talked about. They say that National Alliance on Mental

817
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 1: Health basically says, if you have BPD and you recognize

818
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: that and you want to see treatment, whether it's you know,

819
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 1: DBT or any other kind, you uh, well, first of all,

820
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 1: seek out someone that specializes in DBT. But if there's

821
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: no one in your area that does that, then, like you,

822
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:16,760
Speaker 1: you have a right and this this goes with any

823
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: sort of emotional or mental problems that anyone has. They're

824
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 1: working for you, So you have the right to advocate

825
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 1: for yourself and to find somebody who works for you

826
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: and who who will not stigmatize you, and like really

827
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 1: like it's okay to question them and make sure it's

828
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: a good fit for you.

829
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

830
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 1: I think people just I don't know, it's I think

831
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 1: part of the problems with a lot of these disorders

832
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: is people can't be advocates for themselves and that might

833
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: be part of their problems. So they're not going to

834
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: advocate for themselves when receiving treatment, and they'll just take

835
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: whatever they can get. And it's not all therapies are

836
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 1: created equal and in therapists are created definitely not.

837
00:47:57,640 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 2: I think one of the problems with BPD is that

838
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 2: they might over advocate for themselves.

839
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: Oh, Chase puss Off basically right.

840
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 2: But the thing is, Chuck, is like you said, people

841
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 2: take what they can get, in part because there's a

842
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 2: huge shortage of psychiatrists, in particular in the United States,

843
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 2: and people will just take whoever can get them in

844
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 2: within a year or less. If the waiting lists are crazy,

845
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 2: it is crazy. Well, if you want to know more

846
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 2: about BPD, there are a lot of articles and resources

847
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 2: all over the internet to help you.

848
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 3: And since I said that it's time for listener mail,

849
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:38,879
Speaker 3: I'm going.

850
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: To call this, uh, well, let's just call it listener mail. Hey, guys,

851
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 1: one day I will write the email that I've been

852
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 1: formulating in my mind for years, trying to put into words,

853
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: but the show is meant to me. I'm tearing up

854
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: just writing that sentence, which provides you with a hint

855
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: of why that email hasn't been written yet. In the meantime,

856
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: I want to let you know that both of your

857
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: names are listed on my big Thanks to portion of

858
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 1: my bachelor thesis. It's customary in my country to thank

859
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: your college coach for their support during your graduation year

860
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: and your thesis forward. I have felt it was only

861
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: right to also thank the other people have supported me

862
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: to the same extent as my coach, and this includes you, guys.

863
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 1: I don't feel the least bit dramatic when I say

864
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 1: my thesis would not have been written, but wasn't for

865
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: you guys keeping me sane. That's what you've done for

866
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: me over the years, but this year I really needed

867
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: it more than ever, So thank you all caps, double exclamations.

868
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 1: I've added a picture of my forward where your names

869
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: are mentioned, and since I'm Dutch, I'm afraid it won't

870
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 1: make much sense to you, but I figured it might

871
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 1: bring you some joy to see the proof.

872
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 2: There are some Rando jays scattered throughout those words.

873
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, and Chuck has a little null signed through it.

874
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:50,720
Speaker 1: That's weird unless sure what that means.

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Speaker 3: It means watch your back.

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00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 1: That means it don't count. And that is with much

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00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: love and immense gratitude from Suzanne. Oh, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: do my best here, Suzanne. Uh Christick, let's hear it again.

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Speaker 1: Chris Silk sick. I like KRK you I S have you?

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Speaker 1: I JK If you liked that one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Susan. I'm gonna call her Suzanne. Thank

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Speaker 2: you very much, Suzanne. That was very kind of you.

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00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 2: Thank you for tearing up. I think you did just

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00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 2: write that email. If you ask me, don't.

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Speaker 1: You, Chuck, I'm tearing up.

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00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 2: If you want to be like Suzanne and let us

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00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 2: know what we meant to you. We always love hearing

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00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. Or you can just write it

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00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 2: and say anything you want. We're at stuff Podcasts at

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Speaker 2: iHeartRadio dot com.

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Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

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00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.