1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: You're listening to Law and Order Criminal Justice System, a 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 1: production of Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts. 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 2: In the criminal justice System, landmark trials transcend the courtroom 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 2: to reshape the law. The brave men and women who 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 2: investigate and prosecute these cases are part of a select 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 2: group that is defined American history. These are their stories. 7 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 2: November thirtieth, nineteen ninety four, Williamsburg Social Club, Brooklyn, New York. 8 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: It's a scene right out of the movies. Cigar smoke 9 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: hung thick in the air as a group of men 10 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: faced off in a card game. 11 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 3: It was late in the evening. They were playing a 12 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 3: Italian card game called Continental. 13 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: The stakes were high, and tensions over one man's growing 14 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: debts were even higher. One man calls someone's bluff. Another 15 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: pulls a gun, and when the smoke cleared, two men 16 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: lay bleeding across the card table, one shot multiple times 17 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: in the back, another once in the head. The other 18 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: players cleared out ahead of the approaching sirens. If police 19 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: were looking for answers, it wouldn't come from them. 20 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 3: Everybody knew there was a lot more to it than 21 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 3: just some guy got shot in a social club. 22 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 1: The San Giseppe Social Club was a wise Guy favorite, 23 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: and the double murder had all the markings of a 24 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: mob hit, except for one major difference. One of the 25 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: men had survived his wounds. 26 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 4: The gun was so close to Derso's head that the 27 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 4: speed of the bullet as soon as it hit the 28 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 4: scullet came down his neck, so he wasn't dead, but 29 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 4: he was knocked out. They thought he was dead, and over. 30 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: The next several years, that survivor of a point blank 31 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: gunshot would plot a unique kind of revenge as a 32 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: secret weapon in the government's fight against organized crime, and 33 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: just might be the final nail in the coffin for 34 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: a generation of mob bosses. 35 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 4: You're not with the mob because you want to be. 36 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 4: It's the gangster that decides whether you're his associated on. 37 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 5: If you like your life, you will vote to acquit. 38 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: I'm Aniseega Nicolazzi. 39 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 6: My father should have been a dead. 40 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:43,679 Speaker 1: Man from Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcasts. This is Law 41 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: and Order criminal justice system. In the years following the 42 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: commission trial, the New York Mob was like a wounded animal, 43 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: struggling but still dangerous, maybe more than ever, especially when 44 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: a man like Vincent Gigante could run his Genevese gang 45 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: from prison, and an army of made men were getting 46 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: wise on how to avoid prosecution. By the mid nineteen nineties, 47 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: the Five Families had taken significant blows to their respective leaderships, 48 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:25,119 Speaker 1: but these were organizations that had survived crackdowns, mass indictments, 49 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: and even all out wars. Exterminating the mafia from every 50 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: corner of the criminal underground would not happen overnight. After all, 51 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: there were still plenty of up and comers ready to 52 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: step into vacant leadership roles and willing to unleash an 53 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: unprecedented wave of violence to secure their newfound power. 54 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 3: My name is Christopher Blank. I was a member of 55 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 3: the Brooklyn DIA's office from nineteen eighty four to twenty 56 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 3: twenty three. I went from a line assistant to an 57 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 3: executive ADA in charge of organized crime investigations and grand 58 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 3: jury presentations and trials. I just started in this work 59 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 3: when Castellano got killed outside of Sparks. 60 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: With his resume, Chris Blank is the kind of lawyer 61 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: who could probably walk into most law firms in the 62 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: country and write his own ticket. But for this recently 63 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: retired prosecutor serving his community, in this case, the people 64 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: of New York was his higher calling, especially when it 65 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: came to prosecuting organized crime. 66 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 3: Being a lawyer was never about making more money than 67 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 3: the next guy. To me, it was more about the 68 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 3: opportunity to do the right thing, and being a prosecutor 69 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 3: in these kinds of cases was to me the epitomy 70 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,799 Speaker 3: of that kind of practice. 71 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: During his career, he also learned that it can feel 72 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: like a never ending battle against an enemy so skilled 73 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: at self preservation. 74 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 3: This applies across the board to all sophisticated criminals running 75 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 3: corrupt criminal organizations, whether they're Russian, Chinese, or Eastern European 76 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 3: or even street crime gangs that are becoming more sophisticated. 77 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 3: They have developed a layering system, a hierarchy system that 78 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 3: insulates the bosses from ever being prosecuted because they're never 79 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 3: the ones out on the street, on the front line 80 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 3: exposing themselves to law enforcement. 81 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 1: And the shooting at the Williamsburg Social Club was a 82 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: unique opportunity to examine this hierarchy up close and ultimately 83 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: exploit its weaknesses. 84 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 3: The Social Club was the actual social club that Sonny 85 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 3: Black and Donnie Brasco had their interactions. 86 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: In Donnie Brasco was the name used by undercover FBI 87 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: agent Joe Bistone, who infiltrated the Banano crime family from 88 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six to nineteen eighty one, resulting in over 89 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 1: two hundred indictments, one hundred convictions, and one great movie. 90 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: The club was already on law enforcements radar as a 91 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: monster hangout, but by nineteen ninety four, after the commission trial, 92 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: many were keeping a much lower profile than their predecessors, 93 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: and congregating clubs easily targeted by the FEDS was not 94 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,239 Speaker 1: any mobster's idea of a good time. 95 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 3: It had now become a local, non organized crime oriented 96 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 3: Italian social clubber Italian guys from Neighborhood and Williamsburg got 97 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 3: together to play cards and have family events that wasn't 98 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 3: available to them in their apartments in their homes. 99 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: Which is not to say that the violence that erupted 100 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: in the early hours of that November day was unknown 101 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 1: to the neighborhood, which had long been a stronghold of 102 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 1: the Genovese crime family, but it was a reminder that 103 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: the specter of the mob had far from vanish from 104 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: the everyday life of ordinary citizens inside the club. The 105 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: first officers to arrive took in the crime scene. One 106 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: man was dead on the floor, shot multiple times in 107 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: the back. The other had a bullet wound to the 108 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: back of his head, but incredibly, he was still breathing. 109 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: Paramedics removed both from the scene, one to the hospital 110 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: and one to the morgue. Witnesses were scarce, at least 111 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: ones that were willing to talk to police. Cards and 112 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: chips were scattered on the floor, so detectives assumed a 113 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: disagreement over the card game turn violent, but given the 114 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: club's history and reputation, they also had to consider the 115 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: possibility that this was a hit. The first step would 116 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: be identifying the victims. The man in the hospital who 117 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: survived a bullet to the head was Michael Cookie Durso, 118 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: and the man in the morgue was his cousin. Here's 119 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: special Agent Mike Campy, a New York native who became 120 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: one of the FBI's experts on the inner workings of 121 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: the Five Families. 122 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 4: Michael Durso grew up in Brooklyn, the Green Point section 123 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 4: of Brooklyn. His cousin first cousin was Tino Lombardi, and 124 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 4: Tino Lombardi worked at Riggierio's restaurant. Eventually Derso worked at 125 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 4: the restaurant. 126 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: As Chris Blank tells it, Derso Lombardi as more like 127 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: a brother. 128 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 3: He adored his cousin. They were a team, and they 129 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 3: were as close as his cousins could be. 130 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: But to detective surprise, despite their thick files unknown mob members, 131 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: neither Derso or Lombardi showed up on any of the 132 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: org charts of the five families, which, according to Campy, 133 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: is not to say that they didn't dabble in the life. 134 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 4: Growing up in the neighborhood. Derso was a tough kid. 135 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 4: He could bench over four hundred pounds. He was on steroids. 136 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 4: He did some time in prison for a check cashing scheme. 137 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 4: I believe he was on the news as Cashanova's because 138 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 4: they would sort of engage the tellers into conversation as 139 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 4: they were banging out bad checks. 140 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: So he's basically flirting to get over to commit the crimes. Yeah, yeah, 141 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: that is what I had not heard before. 142 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 4: And they called him cashanovas him and his cousin. 143 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: Eventually, the two Kashanova's graduated from small time grifts to 144 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: loan sharking, bookmaking, and running illegal after hours card games, 145 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: all of which required an intimidating physical presence, which Derso 146 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: had in spades, and the tacit approval of the local 147 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: crime family, who would never let a good profit go 148 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 1: unnoticed without getting their cut. 149 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 3: Derso, who was a nicknamed Cookie, was very smart and 150 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 3: Lebarda was smart and were connected to a old time 151 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 3: geneviezk guys from Manhattan, Sami Paro and Joe Zito. 152 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,439 Speaker 1: So Derso and his cousin were promising up and coming 153 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: gangsters with well connected friends, but they were not made men. 154 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: They weren't officially part of the family. 155 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 3: Now. 156 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: Over the course of the last eight episodes, we've talked 157 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: about bosses, under bosses, capos, and soldiers, but there's another 158 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: important cog in the wheel of organized crime. The associates. 159 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: Associates have a holy unequal partnership with sworn members of 160 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: a crime family. They may be partners in a criminal 161 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: scheme or racket, maybe even friends, like in the case 162 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:13,839 Speaker 1: of associate Pite Savino and Vincent Gigante. But unlike made men, 163 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: associates do not benefit from the family's profit sharing or 164 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: their protection. In fact, some associates may even have more 165 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: in common with the victims of the mob than with 166 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: the mobsters themselves, because often their partnerships with the crime 167 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: family are not of their own choice. 168 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 4: When you're hanging out with people affiliated with organized crime 169 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 4: and they love showing money, they want to pick up 170 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 4: the tab, they want to pay for things. That is 171 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 4: the process of facilitating an association with you. At some 172 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 4: point in time, they're going to tell you that you're 173 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 4: with them. 174 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 7: All of a. 175 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 4: Sudden, you become a victim of extortion, and you don't 176 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 4: have a choice because over time, the implied threat is 177 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 4: your family's in jeopardy. See that's the thing about associates. 178 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 4: I try to explain, it's the mobster's choice. You're not 179 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 4: with the mob because you want to be. It's the 180 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 4: gangster that decides whether you're his associator. 181 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: On associates like Derso and Lombardi aspire to be made 182 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: men equals with the ones extorting them, but in reality 183 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: they were pawns in a larger game, interchangeable and if necessary, disposable. 184 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 4: One of the recordings I made that demonstrates the hypocrisy 185 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 4: The life was with Jackie de Ross. Jackie de Ross 186 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 4: was an acting boss of the Colombo family, and we 187 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 4: made a recording where de Ross identified associates as suckers. 188 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 4: They think they're in the life, but we. 189 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 8: Just use them. 190 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 4: I believe that's almost a verbatim quote. 191 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: Ambitious associates were lured in with promises of profit protection 192 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: and the prestige of becoming made down the road, but 193 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: their existence was often much bleaker. 194 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 4: There's so few associates that ended up becoming inducted into 195 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 4: a family, and it's because you need these other supporting 196 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 4: cast members to generate cash for the family, but they're used. 197 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: Which brings us back to the night at the social 198 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: club in Brooklyn where Derso and Lombardi ran their regular 199 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: card game. 200 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 3: They were good up and coming associates of organized crime, 201 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 3: learning from their mentors and getting into their own little 202 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 3: loan sharking activity and paying tribute and eventually getting into bookmaking. 203 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 3: So they were on the rise. 204 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: As you can imagine, Gambling was also a great way 205 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: to create repeat business, and two of their best customers 206 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:48,359 Speaker 1: just happened to be mobsters. 207 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 4: Derso and Lombardi have a social club in Brooklyn and 208 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 4: Carmei and Poledo, Mario Fortunado, and others would gamble at 209 00:12:58,200 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 4: this club card games. 210 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 3: Polito and Fortunado were not as highly respected, although they 211 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 3: were also anxious to be thought of as tough guys 212 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 3: in the neighborhood. 213 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: Carmea and Pallito was also a chronically unlucky gambler, and 214 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: he was up to his eyeballs in debt to Drso 215 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: and Lombardi, a predicament that might get a man in 216 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: serious trouble, but being a mobster kept him in the 217 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,959 Speaker 1: game and presumably out of the hospital. But Polito resented 218 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: being in hawk and so he concocted a scheme to 219 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: clear his debts. The plan to ambush Drso and Lombardi 220 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: during a card game. Robbing the pot might even put 221 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: cops off the scent while netting Pollito a few bucks 222 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: to defeat his gambling habit. And because their targets were associates, 223 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: they didn't need permission from the boss, nor would they 224 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: likely face a serious reprimand. But as they would soon 225 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 1: find out, the hit would still have major consequences. Here's 226 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: Chris Blank and Mike can't be on how it all 227 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 1: went down. 228 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 3: Sally Lombardi and Derso, who were cousins and were very 229 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 3: tight were in the club, and Mario Fortunado and Carmin 230 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 3: and Polito were in the club. Mario his brothers run 231 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 3: the Fortunado Bakery, which is a very famous bakery on 232 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 3: Manhattan Avenue, not too far away from the social club. 233 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 3: They were playing a Italian card game called Continental. Time 234 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 3: went on and kids from the neighborhood came by. Their 235 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 3: reason for coming in the club was to shoot and 236 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 3: kill both Derso and Lombardi, those two guys for Anthony 237 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 3: Cherissulo and Anthony Bruno. 238 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 4: Because Derso was so muscular and had a tendency of violence, 239 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 4: they shot him in the back of the head first. 240 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 3: Lobardo was shot several times and he was killed. Cheri, Sulo, 241 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 3: and Bruno ran away, and Fortunado and Polito both ran away, 242 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 3: so leaving Derso down on the floor shot in the 243 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 3: back of the head and Lobarti down on the floor dead. 244 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: In the ensuing investigation, local police failed to gather much information. 245 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 3: Nobody was willing to tell the full story of what 246 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 3: went down. They were trying to piece it together and 247 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 3: I'm sure they were shaking the trees with their informants 248 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 3: in the area trying to get answers, and they might 249 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 3: have had a thumbnail sketch of what they thought might 250 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 3: have happened, but not enough to bring to. 251 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: A prosecutor and their best witness. Drso, even after recovering 252 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: from his injuries, was still playing good soldier and refused 253 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: to talk to police. 254 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 3: The tradition in this case was you don't talk to anybody. 255 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 3: I think Derso felt that he would be able to 256 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 3: get satisfaction by bringing his case that Fortuneo him Pluto 257 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 3: should have to answer for the shooting. 258 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: In other words, Derso thought he could get his justice 259 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: straight from the Genovise bosses for whom he had been 260 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: a loyal earner for years. 261 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 3: Drso was out running his organized crime life and trying 262 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 3: to get satisfaction from the Genevie's crime family when he 263 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 3: came to realize that Pleato and Fortunato were backed by 264 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 3: a different capo and he was a powerful Genevie's guy, 265 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 3: and continued to be a powerful guy to the end 266 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 3: of his. 267 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: Life, and so his demands for retribution fell on deaf ears. Derso, 268 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: not being a made member of the mob, didn't benefit 269 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: from the same oaths of protection or revenge. Despite the 270 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: indignity of that slight, Derso was willing to stay loyal 271 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: and stay quiet about who killed his cousin and left 272 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: a bullet in his skull. But soon his loyalty would 273 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: be tested again, this time thanks to a dispute with 274 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: a made man. Here again is Mike Campy. 275 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 4: Derso had betters gamblers that bet had in office, and 276 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 4: the guy that took the bets was I'm not making 277 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:58,119 Speaker 4: this up, it's hilarious, was a guy named Johnny Zero. Apparently, 278 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 4: Zero realizes some of dersa those betters that bet pretty 279 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 4: big consistently lost, so he decides one day to set 280 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 4: the bets side rather than record them and keep the 281 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 4: money for himself. Well, the betters hit I think it 282 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,719 Speaker 4: was about thirty thousand dollars or something like that forty 283 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 4: and Zero doubled down. So he did the same thing again, 284 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 4: now it was like seventy eighty thousand, and when Durso came, 285 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 4: he explained it, and that facilitated a call to Zero's boss. 286 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: Derso demanded that Zero's boss make good on what he 287 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: was own. 288 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 4: He gets call from an unknown mail, and the unknown 289 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 4: mail describes how you can't touch my guy. Don't ever 290 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 4: touch my guy. Now he doesn't identify himself, and Derso 291 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 4: finds it insulting. He goes back to the office, calls 292 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 4: the unknown mail up on the phone, and basically in 293 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 4: a vulgar, disrespectful manner, says, I can't beat your guy, 294 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 4: and he proceeds to give Johnny zero of beating. So 295 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 4: Derso basically hangs up on this guy because he felt 296 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 4: that he was disrespected. 297 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: The confrontation earned Derso a quick reprimand from a portly 298 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,959 Speaker 1: Geneviz capo known as Sammy Meatballs. 299 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 4: He gets a call from Sammy Meatballs directing him to 300 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 4: come down immediately to meet with him. He goes down 301 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 4: to see Sammy in Little Italy and Sammy describes how 302 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 4: Frank Farbi Surperco is the current acting plust of the 303 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 4: Genevese family. Nobody in the Genovese family really knows but 304 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 4: a select few, and apparently Derso insulted Farbi on the phone. 305 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 4: It was Farbi that was on the phone calling Derso, 306 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 4: and Farbi wants to kill Derso. 307 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 1: Derso had been in the dark that the guy on 308 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: the other end of the phone was the acting Genevi's boss. 309 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 1: He had already survived one hit, he found himself again 310 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 1: on the Genevie's most wanted list. 311 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 4: That was the second thing that rubbed Derso the wrong way. 312 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 4: It really infuriated him that he couldn't retaliate on his 313 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 4: shooting and his cousin's murder. And now you've got the 314 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 4: acting boss of the Genevese family wants to kill him. 315 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: But his new Genevese enemies had underestimated the associate because 316 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: if Derso couldn't get justice their way, he would get 317 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 1: it another. 318 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 3: That was kind of the last straw for Derso. He's like, 319 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 3: you know, I've done all these things. I've made all 320 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 3: this money for them. I've stayed quiet even though I've 321 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 3: been shot in the head and my close cousin has 322 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 3: been murdered. They've done nothing to help get to the 323 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 3: bottom of this or exact retribution for this on my behalf. 324 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 3: And now they want to kill me. So I'm done. 325 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 3: So he literally, on his own initiative, contacted the FBI, 326 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 3: came in and agreed to wear a body wire. 327 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: After years of trying to earn his way into the 328 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: FO the Genevese crime family, Derso decided to swap sides. 329 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: Armed with a wire hidden inside an FBI customized Rolex, 330 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: Derso became an informant, swearing revenge on the men that 331 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 1: killed his cousin, but to get the goods and watch 332 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 1: them all go down, he had to stay alive. Despite 333 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: being just an associate. Michael Cookie Drso had been a 334 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 1: strong and loyal earner for the Genevies, but after the 335 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: attempt on his life, he knew exactly where he stood 336 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: in the MOP pecking order. Here again, his former Brooklyn prosecutor, 337 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: Chris Blank. 338 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 3: Deursa was smart. He understood what he was doing. He 339 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 3: knew why he wanted to be a member of organized crime. 340 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 3: He knew the benefits and he knew the costs. He 341 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 3: was successful at when this came down, he made a 342 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 3: decision that all the things that attracted me to this 343 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 3: are basically bs. Everybody's out for themselves, nobody's protecting me, 344 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 3: and I'm going to protect me and my family from 345 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 3: these people, and I'm going to come on board. And 346 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 3: I know what that means. That means I have to 347 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 3: tell the full story, hold nothing back, and do whatever 348 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 3: they asked me to do. 349 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: Derso was not held by any sworn oaths of loyalty, 350 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: but he surely knew that by cooperating with the FBI 351 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 1: he was risking his life. 352 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 3: I'm sure he didn't have to wear a wire, but 353 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 3: his level of anger at the organized crime figures who 354 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 3: failed to support him and back him up and get 355 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 3: retribution led him to want to go further than your 356 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 3: average cooperator and agreed to wear a wire, even though 357 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:52,719 Speaker 3: that would put his life in danger. 358 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: Mike Campy ran point on the operation. 359 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 4: My role in operating Derso was to generate criminal conversations 360 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 4: involving not only the Genevese family, but others that interacted 361 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 4: with the Genevese family. 362 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: For Derso, it would mean making nice with the very 363 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 1: men who threatened to kill him and continuing to kick 364 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: up profits to the Genevese bosses who sanctioned it. But 365 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 1: Derso had learned a thing or two about self preservation, 366 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: and while the FEDS used his recordings to collect crucial 367 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: information about Genevi's inner workings, Derso never lost sight of 368 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: his own targets the men who killed his cousin. 369 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 3: And for the next two years, Mike Derso was probably 370 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 3: the most successful cooperator out in the street that the 371 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,479 Speaker 3: FBI ever had, and these recordings were all kept quiet 372 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 3: until it became time for Drso to come in from 373 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 3: the street. 374 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: As a result of Derso's cooperation, prosecutors issued dozens of indictments, 375 00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: including the two men against whom Derso had sworn revenge. 376 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 3: The FBI took a renewed look at what went down 377 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 3: and decided they did have enough evidence to make a 378 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 3: case and present it to the Eastern District and get 379 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 3: an indictment of Fortunado and Polito. 380 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: In the subsequent murder trial of Polito and Fortunado, Derso 381 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 1: took the stant and described Polito as a degenerate gambler 382 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: who conspired to kill him and his cousin to clear 383 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:28,479 Speaker 1: his debts. But among Polito's many mistakes was leaving Derso alive. 384 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: Palito and Fortunado were convicted for the murder of Tino Lombardi, 385 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: but not long after their convictions were actually reversed, but. 386 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 3: Looked like a very solid case until a second circuit 387 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 3: got its hands on it and decided that the shooting 388 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 3: here was not a violent crime and native racketeering, but 389 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 3: a personal beef and therefore didn't fit the federal statutory elements, 390 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 3: and so they reversed the conviction, which was a shock 391 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 3: to everybody. 392 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: Meaning that the two men had to be tried again, 393 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: but this time in state court, which is where former 394 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,719 Speaker 1: Brooklyn prosecutor Chris Blank entered the picture and would go 395 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 1: on to lead the case. The case continued on its 396 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: complex legal path, with a second trial, one acquitted and 397 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: one convicted, and then yet another reversal, but that deep 398 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: dive is a story for another day. By this time, 399 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: Derso had entered witness protection, but before he disappeared, he 400 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 1: and his roleex had also gathered evidence implicating a very 401 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: high value target, Vincent Giganti's own son, Andrew Giganty. According 402 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 1: to Mike Campy, a Genevie soldier named George Baron was 403 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: owed some money by an associate, but was sent to 404 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: prison before he could collect. 405 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:54,199 Speaker 4: When Baron went to prison, he facilitated a relationship for 406 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 4: Andrew Giganty with this individual, and this individual ended up 407 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 4: making tens of millions of day dollars with regards to 408 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 4: the seaport. 409 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 1: So when Barone pressed Gigante for this associate to pay 410 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: his old debts, Andrew gi Ganty balked. 411 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 4: And they found it insulting that Barone was demanding this 412 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 4: money from this associate to the point that they wanted 413 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 4: to kill him over like a modest amount of money 414 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 4: that was owed to George Baron, like seventy eighty thousand. 415 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 4: I mean, Chintz kids and relatives were making four hundred 416 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 4: thousand dollars didn't have to leave their house. You couldn't 417 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 4: give George seventy grand he's owed. I mean, it's so stupid. 418 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: Instead, Andrew Giganty passed along the order to murder George Baron. 419 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: And just to give you an idea of how deep 420 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: Derso was when he was wearing that hidden wire in 421 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,959 Speaker 1: his rolex, it was Derso himself that was asked to 422 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: do the hit. 423 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 4: They were going to use Derso to kill Barone. And 424 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 4: so at this point it was all right, we're ready 425 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 4: to take it down. We've got sufficient evidence to charge 426 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 4: Andrew Gigante, multiple players, including George Baron, who ultimately cooperated, 427 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 4: and nobody expected Baron to cooperate. I think he realized 428 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 4: the hypocrisy the life. 429 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: It was another win for the Feds, but even more importantly, 430 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 1: it was evidence that convicted Geneve's boss, Vincent the Chin Giganti, 431 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: was still calling the shots from prison and using his 432 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: son Andrew as his intermediary on the streets. And remember, 433 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 1: Giganty was only serving a sentence of twelve years, so 434 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 1: prosecutors had every reason to try and find ways to 435 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 1: keep him in jail. Implicating him in a conspiracy with 436 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: his son was a good place to start. Here's his daughter, 437 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: Rita Giganty. They needed something to keep him there, otherwise 438 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: he was getting out, and according to investigators, he was 439 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: staying busy in prison, using his sons to rely his 440 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: orders to the rest of the family. 441 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 6: They were not made men. I won't even say that 442 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 6: they worked for him. I would say that they were 443 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 6: just involved by being the extension of his children. And 444 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 6: if he said to them, go do this, go talk 445 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 6: to this one, go talk to that one. 446 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: They would go. 447 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 6: Never in order to do anything, you know, drassically kills someone. 448 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 6: My father would never allow for that. 449 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 4: Vincent Chin Gigante, he did not induct his sons because 450 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 4: he did not want law enforcement scrutiny on them based 451 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 4: on that title of being a member at CAPO. On 452 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 4: a level, it was very cautious and I think right. 453 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: But whatever cover Gigante thought he had provided his sons, 454 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: Andrew's involvement as intermediary provided a crucial point of leverage 455 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: against the Genepese boss using the DERSA wires. The government 456 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: decided to build an obstruction case against Andrew Giganty instead 457 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: about proving once and for all that Vincent gi Ganty 458 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: was still the man in control. 459 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 4: I just figured, let me get the prison calls and 460 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 4: I'll show he's running the show, and it. 461 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,239 Speaker 1: Would be one of those very phone calls on a 462 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: very fateful day that would give the government an unexpected assist. 463 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: September eleventh, two thousand and one. 464 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:36,400 Speaker 7: We were in the kitchen. 465 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 6: My sisters were with me, and I said to my mom, 466 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 6: what movie are you watching? Because I saw the first 467 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 6: tower go down, and she goes, we are talking about that, 468 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 6: I'm watching the news, and then all of a sudden 469 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 6: I turned it up and we realized. Everybody realized what 470 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 6: was happening. Within ten minutes after that phone rang and 471 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 6: he's on the other end like a nervous wreck. Are 472 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 6: the kids okay? Is anybody in the city right now? 473 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 6: Because you know, he wanted to be reassured. So he 474 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,959 Speaker 6: was on the phone for a while and he's talking 475 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 6: completely normal with my mother and they were talking like 476 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 6: a conversation like me and you were talking. 477 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: And that was it. 478 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 6: That's that's how it all came down. 479 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 4: When we got the prison call. So was Chin calling 480 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 4: his family on nine to eleven to ask if everybody 481 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 4: was okay, And so it was like, let's charge him 482 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 4: with obstruction. 483 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: Remember, Giganty was still claiming he was too mentally unfit 484 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: to be a criminal mastermind, but the call to his 485 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: family blew the charade. Here's prosecutor Andrew Weisman, the man 486 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: who had first convinced a judge in nineteen ninety seven 487 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: that Giganty was competent to stand trial. 488 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 8: We ended up bringing a second charge against Giganty for 489 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 8: obstruction for lying to the court repeatedly about his mental condition, 490 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 8: and he ended up pleading guilty to that. Part of 491 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 8: the reason he was charged was prosecutors take really seriously 492 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 8: lying to prosecutors, lying to FBI agents, lying to the court, 493 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 8: obstruction of court processes, because that's our lifeblood, how we 494 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 8: build cases. It acts to give a deterrent to those 495 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 8: people who think they can sort of hop on the 496 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 8: stand or come in and meet with you and lie 497 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 8: without any. 498 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 7: Sort of risk. 499 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 8: The second reason is because the sentence was really not appropriate. 500 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 6: They basically told him, we have you on tape, you 501 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 6: completely normal. Your whole family is talking to you like 502 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 6: you're normal. So we're going to go after them for 503 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,479 Speaker 6: obstruction of justice if you don't say exactly who you 504 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 6: are and what you've done. 505 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: And this time the government held the ultimate upper hand. 506 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 6: Once they told him he was coming after the family 507 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 6: for obstruction of justice, he just admitted everything at that 508 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 6: point and that was it. Everything ended. It was like, okay, 509 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 6: whatever you want, and he gave him all the information 510 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 6: that they wanted, and that's how it all came about. 511 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: In the end, Vincent Giganty put his blood family in 512 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: front of his crime family. He agreed to plead guilty 513 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: to obstruction charges, a plea deal that would spare his 514 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: wife and daughter from prosecution, but his son Andrew, who 515 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: Giganty had tried so hard to protect, would have to 516 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: face the music. 517 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 4: Here's my campy, I charged Andrew Giganty, and I was 518 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 4: at the arrest of Andrew Giaghatty at his house, and 519 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 4: I remember how the jury box was filled with press 520 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 4: to watch his statement and then watch Andrew and Chin 521 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 4: plead guilty together. That day. 522 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: It was an unprecedented capitulation by a mafia bos. 523 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 4: It was like Chin basically acknowledging in a single word 524 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 4: answers to the judge that he faked his crazy act 525 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 4: for decades. And then he asked if he and the 526 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 4: Sun could meet each other because they may not see 527 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 4: each other again they're going to different prisons. And so 528 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 4: the judge allowed it and they met in the hallway after. 529 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: What was said between them was never recorded, but it 530 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: would be the last in person meeting of father and son. 531 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: On July twenty fifth, two thousand and three, Gigante's son 532 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: Andrew was sentenced to two years in prison and fined 533 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: two and a half million dollars for racketeering and extortion. 534 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: Vincent Giguanty was sentenced to an additional three years. Two 535 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: years later, at the age of seventy seven, he died 536 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: in a Springfield, Missouri prison hospital. 537 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 6: I was in my office it was after hours, and 538 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 6: I got the phone call. That was my sister who 539 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 6: called me and told me, and I dropped the phone 540 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 6: just comen't believe it. And I hear my mother hysterical 541 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 6: in the background, and I just said to her, get 542 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 6: off the phone with me. I'm coming home. I was 543 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 6: very much at peace with it because he was at peace, 544 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 6: and I knew he didn't have his ego attached him anymore. 545 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 6: Was I hurt, Yes? Did I cry? 546 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 5: Yes? 547 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 6: But it was more about my mother than it was 548 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 6: about anything for me to be there for her, because 549 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 6: I know. 550 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 7: She was going to be devastated. 551 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: In the years after her father died, Rita reflected on 552 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: the kind of man he was, the pain and damage 553 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: he had caused in her own ability to survive that trauma, 554 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: feelings that culminated in a revealing memoir entitled The Godfather's Daughter. 555 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 6: It wasn't until seven years after he passed did I 556 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 6: publish it in two thoyd and twelve. If I was 557 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 6: able to come through a set of sircumstances that were 558 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 6: unbearable like that, that I can help others heal or 559 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 6: empower others to know that they have the ability to 560 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 6: do that, and The amount of people that I helped 561 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 6: is why I did it. 562 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 1: In the end, Michael Derso's testimony helped convict more than 563 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:27,240 Speaker 1: seventy mobsters and associates, including Gigante. For his cooperation, Derso 564 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 1: received probation and a two hundred dollars fine. Following his testimony, 565 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: he went into the federal witness Protection program. But even 566 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: with a new identity in an undisclosed location, the former 567 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: Mike Drso was not ready to drop his guard. In 568 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, Drso wrote an open letter to his former 569 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 1: enemies that was published in The New York Post. In 570 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: the letter, he warned them against seeking retribution. Derso threatened 571 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,800 Speaker 1: in the letter, and I quote, I am ready, able 572 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,280 Speaker 1: and willing to defend my family and myself. A bat 573 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,280 Speaker 1: and a knife won't help you, So if you come, 574 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: you better bring a gun. Mike Campy says the mob's 575 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 1: own success has also led to its demise. 576 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 4: When you go back to the days, say the Lucky 577 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 4: Luciano you had, Lucky Luciano, Vito Genavis, albert Anastasia Meyer, Lanski, 578 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 4: you had a bunch of guys that sort of had 579 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,800 Speaker 4: a bond. When you have a small handful of people 580 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 4: working together, I can see a bond, but when you 581 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 4: increase it by hundreds and thousands of associates, it's just 582 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 4: really dysfunctional and doesn't work the way you think it 583 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 4: originally was intended to work. 584 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: With every informant and witness they flipped, law enforcement was 585 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: exposing major fault lines in a historically bulletproof criminal organization. 586 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 8: The joke about the Columbus Family that one of the 587 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 8: defense lawyers representing somebody in the Columba family said is 588 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 8: that it was called the House of Pancakes, And I 589 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 8: was like, why, because everyone's flipping Omeerta. 590 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 1: The mob's ancient oath of secrecy and loyalty to the 591 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: family was quickly becoming a thing of the past, as 592 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,479 Speaker 1: soldiers and bosses alike struck deals with prosecutors to stay 593 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: at a prison, deals that involved ratting out their fellow mobsters. 594 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: Safe to say, it was not always good for their 595 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 1: long term health. 596 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 3: There's one set of people that you can't cross because, 597 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 3: as Aldiarco, the acting boss of the Lucazi crime family, 598 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 3: told me, there's only one way you leave LCN, and 599 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 3: that's feet first. Once you're a member of organized crime, 600 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 3: an inducted member, you never leave, and so if you 601 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 3: become a cooperator, you're not no longer a member of 602 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,720 Speaker 3: organized crime. You are simply what they consider an outlaw 603 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 3: and you will be dealt with when they get their opportuny. 604 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,320 Speaker 1: And for those mobsters who stayed in, the impulse towards 605 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: self preservation was sometimes even stronger and deadlier. 606 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 4: A lot of the criminals have either an ego or 607 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 4: a sociopathic personality where they're envious of each other and 608 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 4: they at some point in time they want to off 609 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 4: each other so that they can replace him in positions 610 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 4: of powers. 611 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: And with so many mob bosses being brought down, the 612 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: turmoil and violence inside their organizations was often left unchecked. 613 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: It was trust no one kill or be killed. For decades, 614 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: the threat to the mob survival came from law enforcement. 615 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: Now much of it came from within. And nowhere was 616 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,760 Speaker 1: this more evident than in one of New York's oldest 617 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: crime families, the Bananos. 618 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 7: The Bananos were an absolute mess. To put it bluntly, 619 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 7: they had had problems going back to the nineteen sixties. 620 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: Jack Stooping is a retired supervisory special agent at the FBI. 621 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: A self described crime fighting fanatic who graduated from hardy 622 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,280 Speaker 1: Boys books to the manual of the FBI. 623 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 7: The first actual organized crime book I ever read was 624 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 7: Honor Thy Father, written by Gates Lease, and it was 625 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 7: about the Banano family. 626 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,319 Speaker 1: And during his long career he would have a ringside 627 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,919 Speaker 1: seat for much of the dysfunction within the once invincible 628 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:34,720 Speaker 1: crime family. 629 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 7: The Boss, the titular Boss, was now living in Arizona, 630 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 7: having been chased out of New York. They were rudderless. 631 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,240 Speaker 7: There were these constant factions within the family. 632 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 1: The Bananos had been kicked off the commission after the 633 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: Donnie Brasco debacle, which had allowed the FBI to infiltrate 634 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: their organization four years. 635 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 7: As a result, nobody trusted the Bananos in the other 636 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 7: four families. They were basically shunned. The Bananos, in self defense, 637 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 7: because they had a generating income of their own, started 638 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 7: exploring other avenues. They were among the pioneers in the 639 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 7: boiler rooms and stock frauds and pump and dump schemes 640 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 7: on Wall Street. They got more heavily involved in narcotics distribution. 641 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 7: They just explored other avenues and nobody knew anything about 642 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 7: them because they were basically operating on their own, but. 643 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: Being kicked off of the commission and left out of 644 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 1: the subsequent Commission trial proved to be a blessing in disguise. 645 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: As the other families saw their bosses sent off to prison, 646 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: much of the Banana leadership was left largely intact and 647 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:47,880 Speaker 1: out on the street. 648 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 7: As a result of the fallout of the Commission case, 649 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 7: we the FBI started to develop quite a number of 650 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 7: turncoat mobsters. Virtually every cooperate reading witness that I interviewed 651 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,800 Speaker 7: from other families, because none of the Bananos had turned 652 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,720 Speaker 7: they said, well, I don't know anything about the Bananas 653 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 7: because they didn't have a seat on the commission. 654 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: So in Banano boss Rusty Rostelli died in prison in 655 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,360 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one. It set the stage for the family's 656 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 1: big comeback. He would be succeeded by a ruthless former 657 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: capo who was determined to consolidate power and rebuild the family. 658 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 1: His name was Joe Messino. 659 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 7: He was brutal. He was reputed to do his own work. 660 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 7: In other words, he wasn't afraid to use violence as 661 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,759 Speaker 7: a tool against somebody personally, would just order somebody else. 662 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 7: He would participate himself if necessary. 663 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 1: You may remember Messino from our first two episodes because 664 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: it was Messino who helped orchestrate the nineteen seventy nine 665 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: hit on rival Carmine Galante as well as the Three 666 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: Capos murder. 667 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 7: Messino is basically putting the band back together. For lack 668 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 7: of a better term, the other four families were now 669 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:12,240 Speaker 7: much weaker because of all of these turncoats and prosecutions 670 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,840 Speaker 7: that were taking place, and so now it was the 671 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 7: Bananos who were filling the power vacuum. 672 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 1: And as the new head of the family, Messino was 673 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: arguably the most powerful mafia leader in the country and 674 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 1: the only full fledged New York boss who was not 675 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 1: in prison. 676 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,600 Speaker 7: He was the force to be reckoned with. He really 677 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,399 Speaker 7: was de facto the boss and bosses. By this point. 678 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,320 Speaker 1: To the FBI, Messino would be known as Public Enemy 679 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 1: Number one. To the world, he would be known as 680 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:49,879 Speaker 1: the last down. 681 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:03,800 Speaker 2: Next time on law and order criminal justice system. 682 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,600 Speaker 5: Traditionally, an organized crime you sort of expect to go 683 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 5: to jail, but what you don't expect is when the 684 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 5: government takes your money away while you're in jail. 685 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,359 Speaker 7: One of the cousin Austra rules is if you vouch 686 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 7: for a guy and he turns bad, it's on you 687 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 7: and the penalty could be death. 688 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,239 Speaker 5: You start out with one individual, he then has so 689 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 5: much information. Once he cooperates, you're able to go after two, three, four, 690 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,320 Speaker 5: and then it was like a domino effect. 691 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 2: Law and Order Criminal Justice System is a production of 692 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 2: Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts. Our host is Ana Sega Nicolazi. 693 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 2: This episode was written by Walker LeMond and Ana Sega Nicolazi. 694 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Dick Wolf, Elliott Wolf, and Stephen Michael 695 00:42:55,160 --> 00:43:00,879 Speaker 2: at Wolf Entertainment on behalf of iHeartRadio. Executing produced by 696 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:05,920 Speaker 2: Alex Williams and Matt Frederick, with supervising producers Trevor Young 697 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,800 Speaker 2: and Chandler Mays, and producers Jesse Funk, Nomes Griffin, and 698 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:15,480 Speaker 2: Rima el Kali. This season is executive produced by Anna 699 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 2: Sega Nicolazzi, story producer Walker Lamond. Our researchers are Carolyn 700 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:26,760 Speaker 2: Talmich and Lukes. Dance editing and sound designed by Nomes Griffin. 701 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:32,480 Speaker 2: Original music by John O'Hara, original theme by Mike Post, 702 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 2: Additional music by Steve Moore and additional voiceover by me 703 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:42,800 Speaker 2: Steve Zernkelton Special. Thanks to Fox five in New York, 704 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:48,280 Speaker 2: ABC and CBS for providing archival material for the show. 705 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,319 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio and Wolf Entertainment, visit the 706 00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:57,480 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 707 00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,760 Speaker 2: favorite shows. Thanks for listening.