1 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: We actually created something a couple of years ago called 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: agency Therapy. We had a client come to us and say, 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: I need to do a review and I said, well, 5 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: why do you think you need to do a review? 6 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: And I got the whole litany of reasons, chapter and verse, 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: and I said, so do you think those could be 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: solved by maybe talking to the agency and avoiding the disruption? 9 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: What do you mean? I said, Well, let me asked 10 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: you a question. If you have a disagreement with your partner, 11 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: your spouse, your significant other, do you instantly go to 12 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: the bar to meet a new one or do you 13 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,599 Speaker 1: try and work out the problem? I said, And if 14 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: you don't work it out together, do you ever go 15 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: talk to a therapist and try and get your relationship 16 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: back on track? And they go, well yeah, I said, well, 17 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: why wouldn't you do that? In this context? I'm Bob Pittman. 18 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: Welcome the Math and Magic. Stories from the frontiers and marketing. 19 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: Sometimes we probe the deep frontiers in marketing, sometimes even 20 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: the fringe. Today we have someone right in the middle 21 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: of all things marketing. Michael Cassen Brooklyn born raised in California, 22 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: tax lawyer, entrepreneur in the video business, but made his 23 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: real mark in the advertising business, first at Western International 24 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: Media and now with media Link, the company he founded, 25 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: a strategic advisory firm that sits at the intersection of marketing, media, advertising, entertainment, 26 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,119 Speaker 1: and tech. Truly a one of a kind guy, one 27 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: of a kind company. If you read Kenneletta's twenty eighteen 28 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: book Frenemies, The Epic Disruption of the Ad Business and 29 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: Everything Else, you'll be familiar with Michael's role as the 30 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: connector of the advertising industry. He has a radio show 31 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: on our own WOR in New York and on iHeartRadio, 32 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: and a podcast on iHeartRadio Media Linked, and he is 33 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: in the Advertising Hall of Fame, recently inducted. Michael. Welcome, 34 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: Thank you, Bob. Before we get into your story and 35 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: the backstory on everything, I want to start off with 36 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: you in sixty seconds. Ready go? Do you prefer New 37 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: York or LA? New York is my favorite city in 38 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: the world. Los Angeles is my favorite city to live in. 39 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: Manhattan or Brooklyn, Manhattan, Mets or Yankees. Oh, I'm a 40 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: Dodger fan all the way. The rat Pack or the Beatles, 41 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: Total rat pack, Instagram or Twitter. I'm an Instagram guy, sunriser, sunsets, 42 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: love Fiddler on the Roof. But I can take either 43 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 1: side of that trade. A wine or beer. Oh, I'm 44 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,679 Speaker 1: definitely a wine man. Surfing or skiing. I gave up 45 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: my surfboard for my first set of skis when I 46 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: was fifteen years old. Ken Aletta or Walter Isaacson, Oh gosh, 47 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: The Jobs Book was probably my favorite business biography. But 48 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: Ken got very much under my skin in the three 49 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: years plus that I spent with him. Okay, it was 50 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: about to get harder. You ready? Secret talent dancing, favorite song, 51 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 1: Mack the Knife, favorite artist, Frank Sinatra. First concert it 52 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: would have been Sammy Davis Junior and the Will Maston Trio. 53 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: Childhood hero, Mickey Mannle, favorite TV show of all time? 54 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: Breaking Bad? What's one food You'd never eat? Olives? Okay, 55 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: let's dive in. Ken Aletta put you front and center 56 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: of the app business with his book Frenemies? Did that 57 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: make life weird for you? When I read the galleys 58 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: of that book a bit before they came out, I 59 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: freaked out. You might remember that because you and I 60 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: spent some time together, and you had also read the galleys, 61 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: and you told me I was out of my mind 62 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: to freak out. You talked me off the ledge. So 63 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: I want to say this publicly, thank you, Bob Pittman, 64 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: because it's kind of daunting when you pick up a 65 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: manuscript and it turns out to be a lot about 66 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: you and you don't expect it. The two people who 67 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: brought me back to reality Bob Pittman and Ken Lrer. 68 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,839 Speaker 1: So the answer is in retrospect. I felt really good 69 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: about it, but at the moment I read it for 70 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: the first time, I freaked out. You are Michael Cassen. 71 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: Everybody who knows who knows you have this great interest 72 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: in many things. One of the things you do is 73 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: work with clients when they do agency reviews. I think 74 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: everybody in the agency business lives in mortal fear of 75 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: the agency reviews. They spend an enordant amount of time 76 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 1: pitching business, churning a lot. That's got to be a 77 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: tough job. Tough to make sure you cover everything on 78 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: behalf of the client, and tough because there can only 79 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: be one winner among the agencies pitching. From this insider's 80 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: point of view, and you probably have the most spectacular 81 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: viewpoint on all this. Can you explain the process what's 82 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: really going on in an agency review? Traditionally you'd be 83 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: looking at an agency to determine who's the best strategic 84 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: partner for you, who's got the best team that they 85 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: can put on the field, who's going to offer the 86 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: best pricing. Obviously that becomes an important consideration, but traditionally 87 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: it was strategy led. Pricing was always important because as 88 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: somebody we both know, Alan Grubman famously said, it's not 89 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 1: about the money. It's about the money. So at the 90 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: end of the day, that's always been an important piece 91 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: of it. But I think we've moved from the traditional 92 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: and today, unfortunately it's just the nature of the business. 93 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: In these reviews, and we're fortunate to manage most of 94 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: the large ones in the world, there seems to be 95 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: a race to the bottom, and the race to the 96 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: bottom seems to be driven by pricing and race by 97 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: the agencies are pushed by the client, pushed by the clients, 98 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: and then the agencies need to rise to that occasion, 99 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: and so things that shouldn't be the reason you choose 100 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 1: an agency, which is who's the cheapest. When we first 101 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: started to do business together, Bob Western was famous for saying, 102 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: we buy the same things for less. You know, that 103 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: was a good stick. It worked, you know, and they 104 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: sort of did and we sort of did. But today 105 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: it's more difficult to prove that. And yet it's it 106 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: seems that that race to the bottom is who can 107 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: deliver the lowest price without as much consideration to strategy. 108 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: I think strategy is still, at the end of the day, 109 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: the more important of the two elements. Have the clients 110 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: or let's put the evil people in here at procurement 111 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: procurement people have they realized that, of course you get 112 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: what you pay for, and yes, I can get you 113 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: cheaper spots and their worst spots and they're worse performing. 114 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: It seems to me that there's not nearly as much 115 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: of attention to return and value as there is a 116 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: unit pricing. What's so interesting is as marketers, there is 117 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: a much more focused view on return on investment. The 118 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 1: marketers are asking now for a better return on their 119 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: investment does not not come up in the agency review. 120 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: It does, But the procurement folks are looking at a 121 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: grid and on that grid that's just going to look 122 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 1: at cheaper and cheaper doesn't always mean better, as you 123 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: well know. And do the CFOs now control the process 124 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: more than the cmos, Yes, they do. You know, let 125 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: me step back for a second because you mentioned the 126 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: P word, the procurement word. I look at that group, 127 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: not just procurement, but in the marketing services area, it's 128 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: an orchestra. What some marketers have done have put procurement 129 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: in the first chair violin and that's not a good 130 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: place for them to be. I think they need to 131 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: be in the string section somewhere. But first chair violin 132 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: is the person who should be leading it, and that's 133 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: the marketer. Procurement needs to be a support, not a lead. 134 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: PEPSI several years ago took procurement out of the center 135 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: and put it back into the brands, and that was 136 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: a good move because what you realized then it's not 137 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: just procurement as to who can buy pencils cheaper because 138 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: we're buying more pencils, it's who can buy it smarter. 139 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: One of my friends in the agency business said, you know, 140 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,119 Speaker 1: in the old days, we spent all the time talking 141 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: about creative and strategy and a plan, and media was like, yeah, yeh, 142 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: and buy some media. Now, we spent all the time 143 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: talking about media and cost and going yeah, yeah, that's 144 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: a good idea. It's completely flip flopped. He was bemoaning 145 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: that fact. Is that accurate? Yeah, it's accurate. So, Bob, 146 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: when I started in the business, in a pitch, if 147 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: a pitch was ninety minutes, eighty five minutes, was the 148 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: creative To put it in mad Men terms, it was 149 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: Don draper right and Harry the media nerd with the 150 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: bow tie and the abbocus, figuring out costs per points. 151 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: He would get three minutes at the end of the 152 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: presentation go yeah, no the media and nobody cared. Something happened, 153 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: And I think I was a little bit a part 154 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: of that revolution in the nineties. We got the industry 155 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: to focus on the fact that when you announced one 156 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: hundred million dollar budget or a billion dollar budget, eighty 157 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: five percent of that budget is the media spin, not 158 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: the creative. So maybe you should spend a little more 159 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: time looking at the media mix and the strategy being 160 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: applied as opposed to the storytelling. That being said, storytelling 161 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: is still the most important thing in marketing. You can 162 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: have a great media plan if it's a terrible bit 163 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: of creative. It's going to die. You know the old joke. 164 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: Can good media save bad crew creative? Not so sure, 165 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: but bad media can kill good creative right, Well, you're 166 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: advertising the wrong message exactly, spending money to hurt yourself. 167 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: We're going to come to some of these issues a 168 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: little more, but before we leave it, what advice would 169 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: you give to agencies, both in review and those that 170 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: are pitching the new business. Be careful what you wish for, 171 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: and be careful of making wild ass promises that you 172 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: can't deliver, because, as procurement does, get a stronger hold 173 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: on some of this, if you make a promise to 174 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: somebody that we're going to save you X, they no 175 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: longer will accept. I'm sorry, the dog ate my homework 176 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: and I can't deliver because in this day and age, 177 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: procurement goes up to the CFO. The CFO takes those 178 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: numbers in the public company context to Wall Street. Well, 179 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: if you're not delivering, think of it in the M 180 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: and A context with all the merger and acquisition activity 181 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: in the media business. For example, if you don't think 182 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: that when AT and T buys Warner Media, or when 183 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: CBS and Biacom come together, or Disney and Fox came together. 184 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: They're not looking to ring savings out of that in media, 185 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: but those savings actually are playing a part in the 186 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: financial commitments that the CEO or the CFO then make 187 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: to Wall Street. See, you actually have to be able 188 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: to deliver it. You can't get away with yeah, Well 189 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: I had meant sorta kind of it's not going to 190 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: work anymore. Did that happen in that? Was it two 191 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: years ago? We had Lalla yeah or whatever it was. 192 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 1: See you're a music man, right, Media pollos and media 193 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 1: pol media Polluz was twenty fifteen, and there was a 194 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: lot of wild ass promises that people couldn't deliver on. 195 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: But that was the moment where everything changed. Twenty fifteen 196 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: was where we saw a change. And what I mean 197 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: by that is historically, if you were the roster agency 198 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: for Unilever or Procter and Gamble, you could generally hand 199 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: that down to your descendants. Not anymore. It changes a 200 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: lot more frequently now, and many of those reviews are 201 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: driven by procurement, meaning it's three years, you got to go, 202 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: meet new partners, you got to go, even if you 203 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: are going to keep the business you have to be reviewed. 204 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: We actually created something a couple of years ago called 205 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: agency therapy. We had a client come to us and say, 206 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: I need to do a review and I said, well, 207 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: why do you think you need to do a review? 208 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: And I got the whole litany of reasons, chapter and verse, 209 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: and I said, so do you think those could be 210 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: solved by maybe talking to the agency and avoiding the disruption? 211 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: What do you mean? I said, Well, let me ask 212 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: you a question. If you have a disagreement with your partner, 213 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: your spouse, your significant other, do you instantly go to 214 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: the bar to meet a new one or do you 215 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: try and work out the problem? I said, And if 216 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: you don't work it out together, do you ever go 217 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: talk to a therapist and try and get your relationship 218 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: back on track? And they go, well yeah, I said, 219 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: well why wouldn't you do that in this context? Well 220 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: what do you mean? I said? Well, Look, the work 221 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: we have to do in anticipation of a review is 222 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 1: not different than we could do here. We talked to 223 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: the stakeholders, we find out what's ailing you, because truly, 224 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: when you find a sick client, you generally find a 225 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: sick agency, and vice versa. So maybe if we sat 226 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 1: down and talked through what the issues are, you might 227 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: solve those without the disruption of a review. And people 228 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: went really, And we have some case studies where we've 229 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: actually done that and avoided and some of them are 230 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: three four years later, they're happier than ever with their 231 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: agencies because we solved the problem. We got to the 232 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: core of what their perception was that they weren't getting. 233 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: You are obsessed with Hamilton. Tell me a little bit 234 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: about that obsession. I think Alexander Hamilton is one of 235 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: the most interesting characters in history, not just American history. 236 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: I read the book when it first came out, and 237 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: then when I saw the show the first time, I said, 238 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, I want to go back and reread it. 239 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: It was a multimedia experience. Every page I read, I 240 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 1: was listening to the music while I was reading it. 241 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,319 Speaker 1: A particular lyric stood out for me, and it was 242 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: the song about no one else was in the room 243 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: where it happened. It really resonated for me because I felt, 244 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: in a very prideful way that media Link, in its 245 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: position in the industry, got to be in the room 246 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: where it happened. A lot same song, there was a 247 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 1: lyric where Thomas Jefferson says to James Madison, I arranged 248 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: the menu, the venue, and the seating. I also learned 249 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: a great lesson from that, because even if you're having 250 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: a meeting with people who know one another, if you 251 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: have the right menu, the right venue, in the right seating, 252 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: it can be an entirely different meeting. So let's go 253 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: back in time. You were born in Brooklyn, grew up 254 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: in la You know, the migration happens a lot now, 255 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: but it didn't happen so much in the fifties. Why 256 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: did your family move west in the nineteen fifties, I 257 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: mean that was really early for that. Does the word 258 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: stetel mean anything to you? Doesn't from a boy from Mississippi, 259 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: But shtettel is what the little villages were in eastern Europe. Okay, 260 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: we lived in Brooklyn. My grandfather owned three two family houses, 261 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: you know, up and down. We lived in one, my 262 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: aunt and uncle lived in another, and my other aunt 263 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: and uncle lived in another, and my grandparents lived in 264 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: the fourth. That's what you call a stettel. And my 265 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 1: father woke up one day in the early fifties and said, 266 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: I think it's time to go west. Young man, and 267 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: he loaded up the Conestoga and we crossed the plank 268 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: Beverly Hill Building. Yeah, exactly, Brooklyn Hill, Billy. Yeah. My 269 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: dad drove across the country, but my mom and my 270 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: sisters and I flew on what was probably, you know, 271 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: I was only three, but probably a twelve hour flight, 272 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: and we flew to California. And the good news is 273 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: my grandfather was one of fourteen children. Most of his 274 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: brothers moved to California in the twenties and thirties, so 275 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: they were already well established here. What was unique for 276 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: me was growing up in the fifties in southern California 277 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: when it really was Orange Groves. Well, I want you 278 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: to paint that picture for us. The fifties in southern 279 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: California was really the wild West. My dad loved horses, 280 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: and so I mentioned to you earlier that I traded 281 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: my first pair skis for a surfboard. What I traded 282 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: for a surfboard was my horse. I had a horse 283 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: in the late fifties and early sixties in La. In 284 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: La and Bob, you probably drove on the four h 285 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: five today. When I had my horse, there was no 286 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: four oh five. I'm really that old Every weekend I 287 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: would be riding in what is obviously today the San 288 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: Fernando Valley. There was no four h five Freeway, and 289 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: anyone who's been in Los Angeles knows one of the 290 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: great parking lots in the city is the four or 291 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: five Freeway. And there was a lot of farmland. There 292 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: was a lot of farmland, a lot of orange groves, 293 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: and a lot of hicks. And I had an advantage 294 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: because my folks were New Yorkers, so I had that cosmopolitan, 295 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: extra special sauce that I got to sprinkle on things 296 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: because I grew up with that sentiment and that mentality. 297 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: Because my grandparents and the close family still lived in 298 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: New York, I had a bi coastal life in the 299 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: fifties when that was unheard of. We'd spend our summers 300 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: back in New York, which was crazy because you'd say, well, 301 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: why would you go back to New York. Well, because 302 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: that's where the summer camps were and the things that 303 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: my parents thought I should be doing and my sister 304 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: should be doing. So it was kind of unusual in 305 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: those days to have that experience. I grew up in 306 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: the same era in Mississippi and my dad almost moved 307 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: our family to Glendale, and the early nineteen sixty sixty 308 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: one or sixty two, everybody from everywhere in the country 309 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: was looked at California. There is such a mixing of people, 310 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: such a mixing of ideas and culture. How to growing 311 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: up in that? With that mixing of ideas shape you. 312 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: You grew up here, you were going to go into 313 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: the entertainment business. I was more attracted to the business 314 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: side of show business, not the show side of show business. 315 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: But you know, I was a ham anyway, so I 316 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: didn't mind that side. Where did that come from? You know, 317 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: everyone who knows you, Michael Casson can get along with 318 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: anyone that is sort of the essence of you. Where 319 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: did that come from? I think that came from my family. 320 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: I've always believed when I come up to your offices 321 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: on fifty fifth Street, whether it's the receptionist or you, 322 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: I treat people the same. I've always tried to do that. 323 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: It's a very special quality. Just hold on a second, 324 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: because we've got so much more to talk about. We'll 325 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: be back after a quick break. Welcome back to Mathem Magic. 326 00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: We're here with Michael Casson. So let's age Michael Casson. 327 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: You went to the University of Miami for one year, yes, 328 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: then you went to UCLA English major, went unto law 329 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: school in la then New York, became a successful tax attorney. 330 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: When you talk about show business, you were definitely on 331 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: the business side for a year. You even left to 332 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: go run a home video business that was the mid eighties, 333 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: and then you went back to law. But probably the 334 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: most important thing is to Michael Casson, that came into 335 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: the ad business, and I guess your first stop was 336 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,479 Speaker 1: Western International. Grew were the COO and then president with 337 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 1: Dennis Holt. You guys sold the business to IPG. This 338 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: was really the early days of a straight media agency. 339 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 1: How did Dennis start that and what did you help 340 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: him do? And then why did others began to copy 341 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: that model? So Dennis had an idea well before he 342 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 1: launched Western. He was very prescient in that he saw 343 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: what I just alluded to, that media was where the 344 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: money was, not that it wasn't great to be Don Draper. 345 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: What Dennis identified early on was that you could really 346 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: change the world through the media lens. And what he 347 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: did was realized that media buying could be like a 348 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: cooperative in the old classic business context, a co op. 349 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: He went around to all the creative agencies that weren't 350 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: the big behemoths and said, gee, if I could buy 351 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 1: media on behalf of Bob Pittman and Associates, a great 352 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: hot creative shop, you know in Cleveland or New York 353 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: or anywhere, then I've leveled the playing field. Because if 354 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: you're competing against j. Walter Thompson or Ogilvan Maither or 355 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: McCann Erickson, you know, the big, boldface names and advertising. 356 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: But if I could level the playing field on media, 357 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: then at the end of the day, the client could 358 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: make their decision based on who actually served up the 359 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,719 Speaker 1: best creative. Because media was neutralized all of a sudden, 360 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: we could go out and combine and consolidate. So well 361 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: he provided scale to small players. Western was the first 362 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: billion dollar media agency in the world, and at that 363 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: time we were the largest. Dennis was one of the 364 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: best salesmen I ever met. Because to Dennis, no was 365 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: a definite maybe, and he was relentless. He would just 366 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: dog you till you were dead. But you couldn't say 367 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: no to Dennis Holt and Western had reached a certain 368 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: size and scale, and Dennis realized he needed to build 369 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: a company around it in a different way. And that 370 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: was my opportunity. Because I didn't grow up buying media. 371 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: I was a tax lawyer. I didn't know the difference 372 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: between a GRP or a TRP when I came into 373 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: the business, and my first day on the job was 374 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: that of chief operating officer, which was quite a big 375 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 1: step to have me come in in that role with 376 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: people who'd been there for twenty five years and had 377 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: built not in a negative way, but had built fiefdoms 378 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: and local broadcast and out of home and radio and 379 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 1: national broadcast. And these were all people who'd been doing 380 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: it a hell of a lot longer than I was. 381 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: I was doing it for about five minutes. But what 382 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,959 Speaker 1: I did was I brought basic business principles to it. 383 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: And I looked at it and I said, I understand 384 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: this business. This is like a mutual fund. And Dennis 385 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: looked at me and said, what do you mean. I said, Well, 386 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: if you go to a mutual fund, you give them 387 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: money and you ask them to diversify your investment portfolio. 388 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: Put some in stock, some and bond, some in real estate, 389 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: some here, some there, and you look for a return 390 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 1: on investment. That's what you're doing. I said, that's what 391 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: we're doing. Clients come to us, they give us ten 392 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,719 Speaker 1: dollars and they expect us to determine where to invest 393 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: it to give them the proper return on the investment. 394 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: So if we look at it that way, it's not 395 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: anything other than investment advisory. Western International Media in those 396 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: days was known as a media buying service. I changed 397 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 1: every bit of collateral and I said, we are not 398 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: a media buying service. We're a media investment service. We're 399 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: investing clients' money, and if you look at it that way, 400 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: it changes the perspective. I give Irwin Gottlieb credit for 401 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: taking it one step further. Later on, Irwin took it 402 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 1: and said Group M, the age group that he ran, 403 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: was a media investment management company. One extra word, but 404 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: it was the same principle. So I looked at it 405 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: as I was investing clients money to generate a return 406 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: on that investment. Full stop. Walk us through the steps 407 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: in the advertising industry of how the agencies got split. 408 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: We had the media agency and then we had the 409 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: creative agency. And did Western play a role in that? Yeah? 410 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 1: Western was the first media buying service media management company, 411 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 1: but to be created and to be created at scale. 412 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 1: That led the unbundling of the industry. Where creative was 413 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 1: over here to the left, Media all of a sudden 414 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 1: was split off as a separate discipline. The big issue 415 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: was where would the media planning go. So you have 416 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: your creative, you have your media implementation or execution, the 417 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: buying of the media, but the planning is the strategy. 418 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: The progression was research would tell you what you should 419 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 1: be doing. Once you know who the target is, then 420 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: you have to do media planning to figure out how 421 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: do you reach that target, and then you have to 422 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: do media execution to actually buy the media. So those 423 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: were always the three steps Research, planning, buying. We felt 424 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: strongly at Western and we changed the industry that that 425 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 1: discipline should be a separate entity, and so we unbundled 426 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: the industry. As you know, Bob, the industry is rebundling. 427 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: Why because digital. It's where it got clearer that you 428 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: needed to have planning central, not on the media side 429 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: or the creative side. It was right in the middle. 430 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: And the client says, wait a minute, I need the 431 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: creative messaging to be informed by the same sort of 432 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:52,360 Speaker 1: data that the media planning and execution is. Well, if 433 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: it's the same strategy, why are we not bringing them 434 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: back together in a different way. Perhaps so, I don't 435 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: think we've gone back to the bundle that existed before. 436 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: I think we have a new bundle. You began media 437 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: link as an offshoot of a learning journey. You're working 438 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: out your noncompete. You had to sit on the beach 439 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: for eighteen months, two years, whatever it was, and you 440 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: went out to the desert or it was your version 441 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 1: of seeking the Guru in India, and you went out 442 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: to teach yourself. Tell us about that journey. So what 443 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: I did in that covenant not to compete moment, I 444 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: said in an effort to maintain relevance to my kids. 445 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: And my kids today are thirty eight, forty and forty two, 446 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 1: but back then they were fifteen, sixteen years younger. I 447 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: want to make sure I understand what's happening in this 448 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: new world. It was just post dot com. Everybody was 449 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: running around with dot com this and dot com that, 450 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: and it blew up, and I said, but there's more here. 451 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: And what I don't want to be is a guy 452 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: who used to be in the media business and knew 453 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 1: what was I wanted to kind of understand what was 454 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: gonna be. What did you do? How did you teach you? 455 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: Surrounded myself with the smartest frickin' people I could find 456 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: that understood this trajectory we were on in terms of 457 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: bringing things again into this digital world. I was very 458 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 1: fortunate that the timing of that linked up with the 459 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 1: moment in our industry where there was more chaos than ever. 460 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 1: Years ago. In another book, I was asked by a 461 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: friend to write a chapter in a book called The 462 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: Strategy of Meetings. And the chapter that I wrote, and 463 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 1: this is thirty plus years ago, was chaos and Opportunity. 464 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: So I've always been a big believer in that chaos theory. 465 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: If you can find chaos, there's generally going to be opportunity. 466 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: And that's what happened. And so how did you get 467 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: people to teach you? You're Michael Casson, you came from 468 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: Western Nashow, you're the old guys. Why would anyone spend 469 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,239 Speaker 1: the time with you? How convincing were you? And how 470 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 1: did you find these people? I had some good jokes 471 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: and I could entertain no listen, I just asked Bob, 472 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: It's funny how that works. I just actually sought out 473 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: smart people, and I said, who are those people that 474 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: I need to know? Brian Grazer had a guy that 475 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: he hired, Brad Grossman, and he had the best title 476 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: in the world. Brad Grossman's title was the cultural attache 477 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 1: for Brian Graziory he said, find me interesting people, find 478 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: me interesting things, and that was his job. I wasn't 479 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: cool enough to have a cultural attache, but I think 480 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 1: I understood where the puck was going, and I had 481 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: to figure out who were the best skaters in that 482 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: hockey game, to follow them and understand how they made 483 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: the puck go there or what they were going to 484 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: do when they were there. And I just was seeking 485 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: alpha and I found some good smart people. So how 486 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: did you jump from student to master and start Media 487 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: Link certainly the preeminent advisory business and advertising and marketing. 488 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 1: The truth is the phone started to ring. People would 489 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: call me and ask me questions. You know, if I 490 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: was known for anything back in those days, I was 491 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: known for kind of knowing everybody and having deep relationships 492 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: set across industries. I had a good understanding of the 493 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 1: left coast and the right coast of the entertainment industry 494 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 1: and the media and advertising industry. I got called as 495 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: much to say, Hey, Michael, can you introduce me to 496 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: Bob Pittman, And I'd say, yeah, but what is it 497 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: you want to talk to Bob about? Well, I want 498 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 1: to talk to Bob about X, Y and Z. I said, okay, 499 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 1: but Bob may not actually be the right person for that. 500 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: Sally's the person you should speak to about that, because 501 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: she really knows that you'll have great time with Bob 502 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 1: on another topic. But I understood how to join the dots, 503 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: how to find the answers. I used to kid around 504 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: and say I'd be introduced at some event and they'd say, 505 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: Michael Cassen with the biggest rolodex, and no one knows 506 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: what a rolodex is, by the way, And I'd say, 507 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 1: that's only interesting if you know what to do with it, 508 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: if you know how to join those dots. The basic 509 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: story was the phone rang and people were asking me 510 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,360 Speaker 1: interesting questions. But what really pushed me over the top 511 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: into the more strategy business other than the connectivity business, 512 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: to be honest, was when Kevin Mayer went back to 513 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: the Walt Disney Company in strategy. He called me on 514 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: a project and he said, there's a project that we 515 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: need help on called the future of Interactive Advertising on television. 516 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,479 Speaker 1: And I know that you can help me get the 517 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: answer because I know you know how to get the answer, 518 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 1: but I also know you have no clue how to 519 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: present it. I said, what do you mean, He said, 520 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: have you ever done a PowerPoint? I said no. He said, well, 521 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 1: we actually need the answer, and I know you can 522 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 1: help me get it, but I'm going to help you. 523 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 1: And what Kevin did, which really changed my life and 524 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: really was the trajectory that media Link set out on, 525 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: was he said, I'm going to give you three people 526 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: from Disney strat planning who can help do the work. 527 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: They'll work for you for these ninety days while you're 528 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: building this project, while you're doing this, and it got 529 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: me into the strategy business, not into the connections business. 530 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 1: And that was really a turning point for me. So 531 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: the business went well. You sold media Link in twenty seventeen. 532 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: That had to be a really hard decision. I know 533 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: it was, I talked to you at the time. Had 534 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: to be hard to give up total control. So why 535 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: did you sell it. What was it about it? I've 536 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: always been a believer that when one drives on a highway, 537 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: it's good to know where the exit signs are. You 538 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: may not choose to take them, but it's certainly good 539 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,679 Speaker 1: to know that there are exit signs. And in a 540 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: service based business, it's not always easy to see. I 541 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: thought about that and said, where is that opportunity? I 542 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:25,120 Speaker 1: found an extraordinary partner, Essential in Duncan Painter, who understood 543 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: the nature of a service business, the nature of a 544 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: strategic consulting business. If Media Link had deeper resources, an 545 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 1: international opportunity, we could expand our remit and expand our business. 546 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: And Essential was a brilliant partner for as it lift 547 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: up your expectations, it succeeded them. That's great. We have 548 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: on the media company side introduced data into our mix 549 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: and understood so much more about our listeners. Yes, we 550 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: use it with advertisers, we use it for ourselves. I 551 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: think forever Facebook and Google have changed how you do 552 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: business with advertisers. No al wants to buy some spots 553 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: and it themselves. They want who's the audience? Where can 554 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: I find them? How can I target them? Where can 555 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: I do my data match, how do I prove it? 556 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: What's my attribution? And it goes straight through to creative 557 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: and Bob, I'd ask you this question because you're one 558 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: of the most creative people I know in this industry. 559 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: I shouldn't limit you by the way. You're one of 560 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: the most creative people I know period. Oh gosh, thanks, 561 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: But you've got a good gut. You can sense things. 562 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: I've seen you do it if you were running a 563 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: network or green lighting movies at a studio, if you 564 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: were making programming decisions today, Historically people would use their 565 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: gut to do that. I think this movie is great. 566 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: I think this writer is perfect, this talent should you know, 567 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: Vivian Lee should be Scarlett O'Hara and Clark Gable should 568 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: be Ritt Butler and we know it. Today you can 569 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: make those same decisions, but you could be steeped in 570 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: so much more data. Where is the balance between what 571 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: your gut instinct is as a creative person and the 572 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: data that you can infuse into that process. And I 573 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: think that's where we are today. The day data found 574 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: its way into the creative world as it previously had 575 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: just into the media world. Well, you know, it's interesting 576 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: there's some studies done on decision making and said, actually, 577 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: every decision is a gut decision. The difference is is 578 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: your gut conditioned by what your kids told you and 579 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: your wife or is it conditioned out of all this 580 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: data you've just gone through, But you have to make 581 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: a decision. There's a guy named Marshall Cohen did the 582 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: original concept test for MTV and that brought him in 583 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: as our research director and has been with me through 584 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: a number of things. And Marshall and I fight like 585 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: cats and dogs always have, over exactly the same set 586 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: of data. We're staring at the same thing, but two 587 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: different interpretations. And I think what's happened in the creative world. 588 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: It's gone from a proclamation to a hypothesis. And now 589 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: I mean have a hypothesis. It may be proven to 590 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: be correct, it may be proven to be wrong, and 591 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: we now have information which helps us figure out which 592 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: it is. Well. But if you think about it even 593 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: one step further, Bob, when you look at what Amazon 594 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: didive capability, Bob Pittman, we know you've ordered these three books, 595 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: you will like these. We all see it today. At 596 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: some point that was scary to people because how would 597 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: you know what I want? Well, I know because I 598 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: know what you just I know all the purchases you've 599 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: just made. And it's obvious programming decisions are being made 600 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: like that in every aspect of our life. And I 601 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: don't just mean programming in television and radio and podcasting, 602 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: I mean it in everything we do. Predictive modeling took 603 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: on a whole new importance because you actually have the 604 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: empirical evidence to be able to validate well. There are 605 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: two things that have always gone on advertising. There's measurability 606 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: and respectiveness, and the two don't always go together absolutely, 607 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: And my favorite example is MTV launched. There were no ratings. 608 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: No one want to buy us except Roger and ricok Pepsi, 609 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: who observes all the kids I know are watching MTV. 610 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: Perhaps he should be there. My biggest advertiser, Coca Cola, said, well, 611 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: they're no ratings. Finally Nielsen rates us. Go back to 612 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: Coca Colt and they said, sorry, we have a role 613 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: that you need a three rating and a sixty five 614 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: and making this number up. I think it's about right, 615 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: though sixty five percent reach to be considered a network. 616 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: We can't buy you. Roger continues to be my biggest advertiser, 617 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: probably Coca call it and buy a spot for the 618 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: first five or six years on MTV, and in that 619 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: period of time, Pepsi moved the market share the most 620 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: it's ever been moved before or after because they were 621 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: somewhere where their major competitor wasn't because Coke wanted measurability 622 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: and Roger wanted results. How does that play out today 623 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: in a world in which I see people going I 624 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: found them, and I go, yeah, what are you going 625 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: to do with them? You know, it's funny because when 626 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: you say I've got them. The problem with the Holy 627 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: Grailed demographic that everybody seems to want, whether it's women 628 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: eighteen to thirty four, men twenty five, the problem is, 629 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: especially with the younger demographic, by the time you find them, 630 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: it's too late. They need to find you, So that 631 00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: discoverability is critical in that pool factor is critical. What 632 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: Roger en Rico really did understand was Pepsi was the 633 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: new generation. So what he did was he found the 634 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: new generation with you at MTV, and it was brilliant 635 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: because he did actually find the demo that he wanted, 636 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: and the whole era of utilizing rock stars, whether it 637 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: be Britney Spears or Michael Jackson or whoever it was. 638 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: At the various times that PEPSI did that, they did 639 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: it brilliantly because they appealed to a new generation. Let's 640 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: hit some other topics. Smart speakers. How are they changing 641 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: advertising dramatically just because of the ability to be programming 642 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: in a different way. This is a trick question because 643 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: we love it in radio, because yeah, of course it 644 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: is a big use case on smart speakers. Then well radio, 645 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: But you know, Bob, you taught me something, so I'm 646 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: going to correct you. I don't think of your business 647 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: today as radio. You think of your business's audio sys 648 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: And correcting, Bob, it is a new device to receive 649 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: that wonderful programming game exact. Actually, we had a focus 650 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: group a couple of years ago with young people. We 651 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: kept talking about radio and they were looking at sort 652 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: of like the dog looks at you, and things don't 653 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: make sense. And in the middle of this conversation finally 654 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: like somebody break, that's what's going on here, and they go, well, 655 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,760 Speaker 1: why are you calling it radio? And you go because 656 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: it's radio, and they go, that's just one of the devices. 657 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: I get on, why would you be calling it the 658 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: device name? And say what would you call it? And 659 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: this was for Z one hundred, they call well, I 660 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: call it Z one hundred, or I called Elvis Durant 661 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: and you go, wow, that's just like a new world. 662 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: I was an eye opener, but at exactly the same 663 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: point you're, oh, law, but you taught me the interesting 664 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: message about the audio side of the world, the curation, 665 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: and that companionship that one enjoys with their favorite disc jockey, 666 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: with their favorite radio commentator, because even disc jockey is 667 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: a term that probably most people wouldn't know what I mean, 668 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:51,959 Speaker 1: but I guess I know I was a teenage DJ, 669 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: but I'd now say I was a teenage radio announcer. 670 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: TV reach has gone down dramatically. Advertised to support a 671 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 1: TV now naturally below radio. TV's not the big reach 672 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,720 Speaker 1: medium anymore. Now it's very expensive and the reach is limited. 673 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 1: How are people rethinking that? And what's the new model? Well, 674 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: the new model is branded content and you shouldn't be 675 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: relying on the commercial break to get your commercial message over. 676 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: And it's something that I learned working with you over 677 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: the years, Bob. Native advertising was invented in radio. Your 678 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,439 Speaker 1: DJ was talking about what you're doing tomorrow night. You go, hey, 679 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: gotta go see that movie. That's not a commercial break. 680 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: Sometimes it was commercial break, sometimes it wasn't, but you 681 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: could never know. I remember when we were working with 682 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: the traffic groups, Metro Traffic and Shadow Traffic, and you 683 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: certainly know those companies well back in week we have 684 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: them all exactly. They're all part of iHeart these days. 685 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,359 Speaker 1: But I remember doing a great solid for the Walt 686 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: Disney Company, and that solid was we'd have the helicopters 687 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: flying over the four h five Freeway or the ten 688 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,760 Speaker 1: Freeway and say we're here flying over the matterhorn at Disney. 689 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: That was a commercial message, make no mistake about it. 690 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: That logic is how advertisers are approaching marketing in a 691 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: different way today. But to your point about television being 692 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: supplanted on people's media plans, interestingly enough, it's still not 693 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: being supplanted. But the good news for this conversation is 694 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: in the most recent media and creative reviews we've been managing, 695 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: we've seen audio. We've seen the iHeartRadio logo pop up, 696 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 1: the new thing. My favorite story of what's gone on 697 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 1: now has been this huge success that Mark Pritchard has 698 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: had at P ANDNG of getting efficiency out of media 699 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: by changing the mix. Maybe Digital's not got everything and 700 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 1: Pull's reported a couple hundred million dollars out of it. 701 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: I think in the speech to the a Anda he 702 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 1: said what's old is new again and looked at the 703 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: stuff he had used before and took a second look 704 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 1: at it and said it actually gets really good results. 705 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 1: And I think P and G, if they're not the 706 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: biggest advertiser and radio this year, they're sure close to it, 707 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: and three years ago they were sort of not even there. 708 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: And I think the same with Outdoor too. I think 709 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: they've moved money. There is the field leveling again, And 710 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: are the media mix models finally being replaced by real 711 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: attribution now that everyone has data? Well, as you know, 712 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: because you and I spent a lot of time on this, Bob, 713 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,439 Speaker 1: so many of the media mix models. It's that old 714 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: adage about garbage in, garbage out. The inputs weren't right, 715 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 1: so you're not going to get the right answer. You 716 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: and I did a little bit of a road show 717 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,359 Speaker 1: on this where we actually went out and said, hey, 718 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: wait a minute, these media mixed models are wrong because 719 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 1: the inputs are wrong. I think media mixed modeling is 720 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 1: changing because the data is better. And the holy Grail, Bob, 721 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: as you well know, is attribution. What was the thing 722 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: that pushed that consumer over the top. That's still the 723 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,240 Speaker 1: question everybody's asking. It's no longer the famous fifty percent 724 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: of my advertising's wasted? Which fifty percent? We're over that 725 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: already right now. It's that attribution question that is so critical. 726 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: So as we begin to wrap up, I want to 727 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 1: call upon your unique perch as an observer of the 728 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: entire advertising industry, hit a couple of issues. Here are 729 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: silos breaking down at agencies. We talk to the agencies 730 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: and they say, look, we want everything on one planning 731 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: platform so we can plan across not in silos. Is 732 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 1: that happening yes. I think what we're seeing is the 733 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 1: dashboards that are being created by the agencies to serve 734 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,720 Speaker 1: up to their clients. Are giving a client and ability 735 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,839 Speaker 1: to move the dials on one dashboard and see an 736 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 1: entire media plan in a holistic fashion. We are seeing 737 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 1: that because the clients are demanding it. So where the 738 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 1: future leaders of the business coming from, What kind of experience, 739 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: what kind of expertise, Got any favorite up and comers. 740 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: We're doing a massive search for one of the most 741 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: high profile chief marketing officer jobs in the world. Can't 742 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: obviously talk about it, but it's wow, we're making news 743 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,280 Speaker 1: right here. Yeah, and it's a big one. They're looking 744 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 1: for somebody who can both be a marketer and a 745 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:59,359 Speaker 1: transformation officer in one person. Will they find that it's 746 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 1: really tough because it's different muscle. And I'll tell you 747 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,320 Speaker 1: one other thing that we're seeing and it's so prevalent today, Bob, 748 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: the move towards a merging of two sides of marketing. Traditionally, 749 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: you had what we would call performance and precision marketers 750 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: on the way in math, and on the other hand 751 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: you had brand marketers fuzzy warm magic. What I've learned 752 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:29,800 Speaker 1: and we're trying to trade name this word right now, brandformance. 753 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,919 Speaker 1: We've looked at the way marketing's done today and say 754 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 1: it's a merger, if you will, or a morphing rather 755 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: of precision and performance marketing on the one hand, brand 756 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 1: marketing on the other hand, because just brand marketing in 757 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: and of itself, without a call to action, without driving 758 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,880 Speaker 1: a consumer to do something, not exciting anymore to any marketer, 759 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 1: and where we're seeing it manifested. Really right now, Bob 760 00:39:55,200 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 1: is in the entertainment industry. Disney plus HBO, Max, CBS 761 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: and Viacom will have their version of that. Comcast is 762 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: coming with their next version of Exfinity. You've got Netflix, 763 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: You've got Hulu, You've got Jeffrey and Meg doing quibbi. 764 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: Apple just announced there four ninety nine a month all 765 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: you can eat subscription platform. All of that marketing isn't 766 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: any longer brand marketing. That is absolute pure performance what 767 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: we call subac subscriber acquisition marketing. It's changing the entire 768 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,319 Speaker 1: focus for some of the largest marketers in the world 769 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: who traditionally wanted to build brands. Now they've got to 770 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 1: get you to become a subscriber, and goddamn, they got 771 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 1: to make sure you don't churn the subscriptions because that'll 772 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: hurt them more. So you've got to find subscribers that 773 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: are going to stay. You know the story with AOL. 774 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: We were very early on that spent at one point 775 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 1: of billion dollars a year on Breck marketing, some of 776 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: it with me, God bless you, and what we managed 777 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,280 Speaker 1: to do though, is on top of that performance marketing. 778 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 1: I guess it's called day. Back then it was direct marketing. 779 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,879 Speaker 1: We put a layer of brand advertising, and at first 780 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: our direct marketers said, don't do that because we're not 781 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: going to get any subs through radio and TV and 782 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:10,880 Speaker 1: how do you know, Well, they're not going to call 783 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 1: the eight hundred number, and I go, that's not why 784 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:14,719 Speaker 1: we're doing it. The reason we're doing it is to 785 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 1: enhance the response rate. And what we found is we 786 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: almost doubled response rates. So when people that had brand advertising, 787 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:23,919 Speaker 1: they had heard about AOL and they got a disc, 788 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 1: they said, oh, I've heard of this. If they hadn't 789 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: heard the brand advertising, OK, and go what is this, 790 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,280 Speaker 1: they would have chucked it. And that difference in reaction 791 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 1: double the response rate. I'm obviously talking to a lot 792 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 1: of subscription people here and coming out of the background, 793 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,839 Speaker 1: but I think you're exactly right, and you're on it. 794 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: Everybody seems to be finally understanding the need for both. Yeah, 795 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,400 Speaker 1: it's true. So Michael, we end every episode with a 796 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 1: note that really goes to the title. Here Mathe and magic, 797 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,439 Speaker 1: So let's do some shout outs. Who's the greatest math 798 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: person in our industry. In advertising, oh god, it has 799 00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 1: to be your wengoutlie. But it's an easy question to answer, 800 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,280 Speaker 1: greatest creative, who's the magician? I think there's a few 801 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 1: today that really stand out. I think you have to 802 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 1: look at folks like David Droga. You have to look 803 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 1: at folks like Colleen de Corsi at Widen and Kennedy. 804 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 1: These are just brilliant creative people who continue to win 805 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 1: the day with their creative ideas. John Heggerty certainly still 806 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,120 Speaker 1: out there and united. People like that are the ones 807 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 1: that I think of at the top of the ladder 808 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:29,839 Speaker 1: in creativity. Michael, You've got a wildly interesting life. You've 809 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,680 Speaker 1: got magnificent stories. Thanks for sharing it. Thank you, Bob. 810 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: Here's a few things I've picked up from my chat 811 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 1: with Michael. One, storytelling is still the most important thing 812 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,799 Speaker 1: in marketing. The greatest media plan can't save bad creative. Two. 813 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 1: As a great connector, Michael thinks a lot about how 814 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 1: to orchestrate the right meeting. If you have the right menu, 815 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,840 Speaker 1: the right venue, and the right seating, it can be 816 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 1: an entirely different meeting. Three. Treat your business relationships like 817 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 1: you do your personal One. And Michael's words, if you 818 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,319 Speaker 1: have a disagreement with your spouse, you don't go to 819 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 1: a bar to meet a new one. Take the time 820 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,240 Speaker 1: to talk it out instead of just looking for new partners. 821 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:16,800 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. I'm Bob Pittman. That's it for today's episode. 822 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to Math and Magic, a 823 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. The show is hosted by Bob Pittman. 824 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Sue Schillinger for booking and wrangling our 825 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,759 Speaker 1: wonderful talent, which is no small feat Niki Etoor for 826 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 1: pulling research, Bill Plax and Michael Azar for their recording help, 827 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 1: our editor Ryan Murdoch, and of course Gail Raoul, Eric Angel, 828 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,680 Speaker 1: Noel Mango and everyone who helped bring this show to 829 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:41,399 Speaker 1: your ears. Until next time,