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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of four,

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Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger.

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Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On

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Speaker 1: the side, we are two working parents who love our

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Speaker 1: careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family,

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Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping

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Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get

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Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode ninety two. Today we're

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Speaker 1: interviewing Audrey Monkey. I say that wrong in our actual segments,

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Speaker 1: but she forgives me, so it's all good. Audrey is

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Speaker 1: a longtime director of a camp and she has a

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Speaker 1: new book out called Happy Campers, which is all about

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Speaker 1: secrets that parents can use to bring some of the

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Speaker 1: magic of camp back into our everyday lives and hopefully

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Speaker 1: have happier families, kids who feel more like they belong

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Speaker 1: and are having a wonderful time at life and all

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Speaker 1: the other great things that happened at camp. So we

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Speaker 1: thought we'd open this episode by talking about our own

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Speaker 1: camp experiences, and you know what we're doing for our

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Speaker 1: kids too. Sarah, were you a camper? Did you do

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Speaker 1: much camp when you were a kid? I was, but

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Speaker 1: I was a day camper. Okay, yeah, I attended the

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Speaker 1: same It was at a local private school outside of Philadelphia,

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Speaker 1: not one that I attended. I went to public school,

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Speaker 1: but the school had a camp and it was very

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Speaker 1: well run. And I think from the ages of maybe

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Speaker 1: eight seven or eight to twelve, I was a camper

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Speaker 1: there and then I went straight into the track where

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Speaker 1: you become like a ciit and then an assistant counselor,

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Speaker 1: and I ended up working there almost every summer until

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Speaker 1: I was old enough to go to I think we

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Speaker 1: both are Governor's School. Well, you have a different system

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Speaker 1: in your state, but to a state program that was free.

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Speaker 1: My parents were willing to pay for day camp, but

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Speaker 1: they were not particularly eager to shell out for expensive

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Speaker 1: overnight programs. For those pre college programs, which I know

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Speaker 1: you're going to talk about. I remember asking to go

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Speaker 1: to want at like Johns Hopkins, because you took your

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Speaker 1: SATs and if you get a score, you could get in,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, I got in, and they saw the

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Speaker 1: price tag but saying yeah, no, you're working, so no,

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Speaker 1: and that's okay. It all turned out very well, and

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Speaker 1: I think they were probably saving for college, which they

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Speaker 1: funded in full. So there you go, thank you parents.

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Speaker 1: But no, I did not go to overnight camp. I

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Speaker 1: did go to a one week of cheerleading camp every

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Speaker 1: year because that was required as being on the squad.

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Speaker 1: It was like training and it was it was held

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Speaker 1: on a campus of an overnight camp, so I've been

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Speaker 1: in that environment, but it was very different. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I started going to well, we lived in North Carolina

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Speaker 1: for the first part of my childhood and I started

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Speaker 1: going to a camp. I think it's called Presbyterian Point

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Speaker 1: Whore Presbyterians, and it was held at car Lake, which

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Speaker 1: is on the border between North Carolina and Virginia, and

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Speaker 1: they had sort of outdoors y camps. I went. I

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Speaker 1: think the summer after third grade was the first time

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Speaker 1: I went, and I went for like three nights. It

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Speaker 1: was a short camp for nine year olds, and I

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Speaker 1: think the first one was pretty challenging, but I definitely

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Speaker 1: liked it by the end, and then after that it

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Speaker 1: was fine. I went a couple more years, and one

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Speaker 1: summer we did sailing, so I actually learned how to sail,

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Speaker 1: and I thought it was all kinds of fun too.

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Speaker 1: You know, we packed our overnight bags, we sailed across

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Speaker 1: the lake to I don't know if it was an

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Speaker 1: island or wherever that we camped overnight and sailed back,

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Speaker 1: which was really fun. Although you know, when you're twelve

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Speaker 1: or so eleven, you don't necessarily have the most responsibility

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Speaker 1: for things like sunscreen, and I believe I may have

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Speaker 1: gotten the worst sun part of my life on that

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Speaker 1: overnight sailing experience. And then I went to you were

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Speaker 1: talking about the academic camps. The summer we moved to Indiana,

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Speaker 1: and the summer after seventh, eighth, and ninth grades, I

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Speaker 1: went to the Center for Talent Development at Northwestern University,

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Speaker 1: which was a three week program and you'd take a

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Speaker 1: class that was supposed to be the equivalent of a

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Speaker 1: high school level class. And I did geometry one summer,

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Speaker 1: I did computer programming another summer, and other summer I

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Speaker 1: did a world literature. I read a lot of books

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Speaker 1: and wrote papers throughout stuff, and I loved it. Oh gosh.

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Speaker 1: We you know, people joke about it being nerd camp,

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Speaker 1: and if so, it was all for nerds like me,

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Speaker 1: because it was it was an amazing experience too, you know,

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Speaker 1: just you're in a normal middle school, like if you're

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Speaker 1: in any way different, which we all are in middle school,

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Speaker 1: but we're all aware of our own differences, you because

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Speaker 1: you get a certain identity, and my identity happened to

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Speaker 1: be like the math nerd, like the smart girl, whatever,

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Speaker 1: and then you go to camp and everyone's like you,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, there's other parts of my personality.

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Speaker 1: Isn't this wonderful? So I really enjoyed it and was,

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Speaker 1: you know, challenged in all kinds of great ways by

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Speaker 1: the classes that I just wasn't being challenged in my

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Speaker 1: middle school back in Indiana. So it was it was

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Speaker 1: a really great experience. My kids are My eldest is

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Speaker 1: really the one who'd be in the overnight camp stratosphere

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Speaker 1: of age at the moment. He's just he's not into it.

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Speaker 1: I've got him to go to a like a lock

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Speaker 1: in for the youth group for middle school at church,

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Speaker 1: and he was willing to do one night, but he's

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Speaker 1: just not had any interest in doing overnight camp in

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Speaker 1: the summer, and I keep nudging it and giving him brochures.

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Speaker 1: I'm not the reluctant parent. What about your second child though,

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Speaker 1: because actually he's hitting the realm where some of his

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Speaker 1: friends may be attending. Yeah, I think that may happen soon.

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Speaker 1: So far, he's been doing a camp, like a programming

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Speaker 1: camp that is around here, and he's doing three weeks

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Speaker 1: of that this summer and it's I think a really

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Speaker 1: well run one. But maybe next summer he'll want to

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Speaker 1: do something that's overnight because I think he would really

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Speaker 1: like it, Isn't it kind of sad for us that

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Speaker 1: being a nerd is school now? Yeah, so we were

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Speaker 1: just early Sarah, Yes, what are you guys doing? Well?

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Speaker 1: My kids are definitely not quite old, and I guess

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Speaker 1: there are some seven year olds to go to overnight camp.

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Speaker 1: My seven year old is not of that ilk, So

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Speaker 1: we are doing the local JCC day camp, which is

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Speaker 1: a very popular option. They have swimming every day in

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Speaker 1: a number field trips, and this will be a new

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Speaker 1: camp for them because we did move so different kids.

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Speaker 1: But I think they'll have some of their classmates there.

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Speaker 1: Genevieve is too young, so she will be home. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, you're not packing, Genevieve off to camp.

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Speaker 1: I guess she's got to be weaned yet for that

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Speaker 1: to happen. Right, Oh, let's not get into that. Let's

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Speaker 1: just go straight into our interview with Audrey. Well, Sarah

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Speaker 1: and I are happy to welcome Audrey Monk to the

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Speaker 1: podcast today. Audrey is a camp director, a longtime camp director,

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Speaker 1: and also the author of the new book Happy Campers,

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Speaker 1: Nine Summer Camp Secrets for raising kids who become thriving adults. So, Audrey,

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Speaker 1: why don't you introduce yourself for us? Well, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for having me on. I am such a

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Speaker 1: fan of best of both worlds, so it's really fun

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Speaker 1: to be here. My name is Audrey, and actually my

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Speaker 1: last name is pronounced monkey, which is crazy. I know, No,

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Speaker 1: that's okay. It's just I often when I make reservation

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Speaker 1: same month because it's just easier because I don't know

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Speaker 1: a lot. But it's like your Starbucks name right exactly exactly. So, I,

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Speaker 1: as you said, I'm a summer camp director. I've been

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Speaker 1: working at camp for thirty four years now. I didn't

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Speaker 1: realize it was not something that I thought I would

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Speaker 1: do when I was young, but I just fell into

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Speaker 1: this amazing career. I actually own and direct a summer camp.

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Speaker 1: And then I'm also the mother of five kids, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of them are already adults now. So my

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Speaker 1: kids right now range in age from fifteen to twenty five.

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Speaker 1: And I've been married for twenty six years. And my

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Speaker 1: husband and I actually direct the camp together, and he

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Speaker 1: does sort of all the business and operation side and

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Speaker 1: I do more of the kind of people and marketing

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Speaker 1: and kind of training of staff side of things. That's awesome,

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Speaker 1: And how did you become a camp director? Because I

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Speaker 1: don't know if it's I mean, this is the kind

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Speaker 1: of job that people might grow up thinking they wanted

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Speaker 1: to do, but maybe you had a different background. Oh yeah, No,

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Speaker 1: I would never have thought of it as a career.

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Speaker 1: I didn't even know it existed, you know, as a kid.

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Speaker 1: Really it was. I think it's just one of those

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Speaker 1: things that was kind of meant to be. I attended

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Speaker 1: the camp that I now own just one time when

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Speaker 1: I was a kid, And when I was in college,

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Speaker 1: I knew I wanted to do something working with kids.

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Speaker 1: I thought I probably wanted to be a teacher, and

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Speaker 1: so my sophomore year I went to the career center

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Speaker 1: to look up different camps because I thought it would

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Speaker 1: be great to get some experience working with kids while

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Speaker 1: I was in college before becoming a teacher or whatever

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Speaker 1: else I was going to do. And this is in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six, so this was pre internet, pre computers.

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Speaker 1: So I went to the career center and there were

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Speaker 1: these big binders with brochures from all the different camps,

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Speaker 1: and I was flipping through and I got to my camp,

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Speaker 1: Gold Arrow Camp, and I was I had this like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I remember going to this camp. It

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Speaker 1: was so much fun. I loved this camp. So I

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Speaker 1: applied for a job. And the camp is on a lake,

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Speaker 1: and so they need a lot of boat drivers. And

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Speaker 1: my background I grew up in a family where we

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Speaker 1: did a lot of boating. My dad always loved like

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Speaker 1: water skiing and boats, and I had a little Boston

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Speaker 1: Whaler that I used to to I learned how to

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Speaker 1: drive when I was young, and so anyway I was

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Speaker 1: it was a natural. I got a job as a

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Speaker 1: water skiing instructor in nineteen eighty six, and when I

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Speaker 1: arrived at the camp, it was the very first summer

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Speaker 1: that the founder of the camp wasn't there because he

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Speaker 1: had passed away in the December December of nineteen eighty five,

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Speaker 1: so his wife was still running the camp, and it

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Speaker 1: was just so I got there, and I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is a big part of why I wrote the book.

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Speaker 1: The feeling there of connection and belonging was like nothing

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Speaker 1: I had ever experienced before. So I had been, you know,

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Speaker 1: in a great high school. I was at college at

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Speaker 1: the time, at Stanford. I come from a really nice family,

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Speaker 1: but this place and the feeling that I got that

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Speaker 1: first summer in nineteen eighty six was like nothing I've

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Speaker 1: ever It was just so great. I just loved the people,

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Speaker 1: I loved the focus and what we spent our time doing.

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Speaker 1: It was just so different than the kind of overachieving,

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Speaker 1: overdoing everything culture that was my life in the eighties

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Speaker 1: when you know, I went to a college preparatory high

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Speaker 1: school and then I went to Stanford and I was like, go, go,

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Speaker 1: go do all these things. And I got to camp

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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my gosh, this is like

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Speaker 1: so much better. Well is that why kids like camp?

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Speaker 1: Is it that sense of belonging and being good just

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Speaker 1: for who you are and that sense of friendship. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what is it kids like about camp? There are a

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Speaker 1: lot of things, but you that's exactly it. I think

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Speaker 1: it's a break from all the pressure that they feel

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Speaker 1: in their regular life. I think everyone's sort of feeling

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Speaker 1: this like amped up kind of sense of overwhelm right now,

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Speaker 1: parents and kids and kind of everybody. We're all sort

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Speaker 1: of running around and like that movie The Race to Nowhere,

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Speaker 1: I feel a little bit like that, like everyone's kind

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Speaker 1: of spinning. And the Internet. While it's been great to

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Speaker 1: have the convenience of email, I think it really shifted

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Speaker 1: for people just this feeling like you're always on and

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Speaker 1: there's always things to do and oh my gosh, you're

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Speaker 1: always behind kind of And I think our kids have

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Speaker 1: gotten that from us too, because they're growing up in

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Speaker 1: the same time. So what I hear from kids, and

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Speaker 1: I actually did research on this, and the American Camp

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Speaker 1: Association has also done research on it, is that they

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Speaker 1: do feel a greater sense of well being, more happiness

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Speaker 1: when they're at camp. And as a result of being

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Speaker 1: at camp, well, we're definitely skipping ahead. And my questions

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Speaker 1: that I had for you, but you know, one sort

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Speaker 1: of to me parents have I'm a physician and take

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Speaker 1: care of a lot of kids and the parents will say,

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Speaker 1: I'm sending them to camp specifically to untether them from

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Speaker 1: their device. So are you does that continue to be

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Speaker 1: a major benefit of camp that maybe wasn't even anticipated

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Speaker 1: twenty years ago. And I'm hoping that you're going to

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Speaker 1: tell me that camps are not starting to trend towards

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Speaker 1: allowing electronics, because I do think that seems like one

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Speaker 1: of the most beautiful, healthy things about the experience for

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Speaker 1: kids today. Yes, I think one of the reasons. I mean,

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Speaker 1: camp has always been a great experience for kids, but

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Speaker 1: now it's becoming I think even more vital getting them

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Speaker 1: outdoors and yes, getting them unplugged. And I will say

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Speaker 1: that my camp and most camps do not allow devices,

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Speaker 1: and it really is truly an unplugged time, but it

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Speaker 1: does vary, and it's something that parents really do need

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Speaker 1: to ask about. For example, there are you know, sports

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Speaker 1: camps that go on for a week where kids, have

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Speaker 1: you used their devices during off times? I think it's

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Speaker 1: a really critical thing at camps to not have the

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Speaker 1: devices or any kind of screens, because it's the opportunity

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Speaker 1: then for the camp. It's to get the connections and

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Speaker 1: create the community. And if you have your phone and

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Speaker 1: you're in a new place. The tendency for adults and

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Speaker 1: kids is to default to looking at their phone because

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Speaker 1: you're you're nervous in a new social situation. So it's

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Speaker 1: really important to force all of us adults and kids

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Speaker 1: to be without our screens just so that we do

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Speaker 1: focus on our face to face interactions. So, yes, I

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Speaker 1: am a huge proponent. I've written a lot about being unplugged,

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Speaker 1: and that is one of the reasons I think kids

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Speaker 1: do feel better while they're at camp. A lot of

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Speaker 1: them will tell me, even teenagers, oh, it's so nice

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Speaker 1: to just know that I don't have to check I

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Speaker 1: don't have to post anything or check things. They'll articulate

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Speaker 1: this to us at camp, how great it feels to

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Speaker 1: be off their devices. But that's hard to translate to

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Speaker 1: home because at home their friends are all on the devices.

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Speaker 1: So at camp they don't worry about it because everyone

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Speaker 1: they're with is also unplugged, So it doesn't translate to home.

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Speaker 1: Just to say, oh, well, I feel so great at

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Speaker 1: camp being unplugged. I can do that. At home, you

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Speaker 1: really can't because your friends are all plugged in at home. Well,

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Speaker 1: maybe that's okay, but the sort of cleanse of sorts

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Speaker 1: is still helpful in the long run, I would think, oh, yes, definitely,

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Speaker 1: and I think it shifts their perspective about it. I

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Speaker 1: think after a lot of them will tell me that

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Speaker 1: after camp they change their habits. Well, Audrey, of course,

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons we can't have the same tech

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Speaker 1: restrictions at home is that they have to use their

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Speaker 1: tech to get in touch with their friends. And one

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Speaker 1: of the fun things of camp, of course, is your

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Speaker 1: friends are right there. I mean, they're in your bunk

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Speaker 1: with you. I mean that does make it sort of easier.

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Speaker 1: And I wonder if that tight sense of community is

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Speaker 1: also part of the appeal too. Oh definitely. I think

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Speaker 1: that kids rarely have the opportunity anymore to just hang

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Speaker 1: out with friends and just be with them for an

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Speaker 1: extended period of time without any end goal. So they

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Speaker 1: have friends that they go to soccer practice with or

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Speaker 1: you know, it's just now it seems so complicated to

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Speaker 1: get play dates, whereas we used to just play more.

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Speaker 1: I think camp goes back to kind of more the

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Speaker 1: old days where you're just together and you're just playing

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Speaker 1: and you know, they're playing cards and they're just having

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Speaker 1: fun together and just being together so much more so.

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Speaker 1: I think that's why they really feel like they make

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Speaker 1: better friends at camp because of that. It's so intense,

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Speaker 1: even though it's just a week or two, but they're

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Speaker 1: together the whole time. So what can we do as

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Speaker 1: parents to have some of this camp magic in our

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Speaker 1: own lives, to have happy campers in our own homes.

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Speaker 1: What are some practical things we can do well? I

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Speaker 1: really think I came to the conclusion after working at

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Speaker 1: camp for about ten years that you really can just

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Speaker 1: use a lot of the same camp practices at home

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Speaker 1: to get some of the same results. And that's sort

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Speaker 1: of why I ended up writing the whole book, was

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Speaker 1: just that the little activities and regular habits that we

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Speaker 1: do at camp can easily be incorporated at home by parents.

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Speaker 1: Give us some examples. So, one thing that is a

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Speaker 1: practice at most camps is some kind of daily sharing.

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Speaker 1: So it might be you know that you're it's whether

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Speaker 1: it's at a meal or a circle time or a

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Speaker 1: campfire where you go around and everyone has the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to share something. So it might be that you share

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Speaker 1: the same thing every day, like you're high of the

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Speaker 1: day and you're low of the day, or it could

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Speaker 1: be a question that everybody answers. It's just there's usually

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Speaker 1: some kind of daily sharing that gives everybody in the

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Speaker 1: group an opportunity to talk. So whether it's the quiet

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Speaker 1: one or the loud one, everybody has a chance to share.

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Speaker 1: And this is a really important practice because in any group,

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Speaker 1: and this would be the same at a work group

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Speaker 1: or your family, there are people who tend to talk

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Speaker 1: more and dominate conversations and that can happen with kids

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Speaker 1: as well, and so you might end up with some

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Speaker 1: kids who are not really as included in a conversation

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Speaker 1: because they haven't been asked to share. So when you

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Speaker 1: have the leader and at camp it's the counselor at

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Speaker 1: home it's one of the parents saying, okay, we're all

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Speaker 1: going to share this, and then everybody has a chance

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Speaker 1: to share. Not only are is everyone feeling that sense

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Speaker 1: of oh, people are listening to me and want to

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Speaker 1: hear my story, but you're also helping the kids who

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Speaker 1: tend to not be good listeners learn to listen to

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Speaker 1: other people. So you're also building an important social skill.

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Speaker 1: So it's like a two It has a dual purpose

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Speaker 1: that it's both helping the kid who talking and it's

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Speaker 1: helping the kids or learning to listen. Yeah, that's really cool.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things you talk about in the

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Speaker 1: book is as a parent thinking of yourself almost as

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Speaker 1: kind of the social skills coach for your child, which

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Speaker 1: I'm sure is not the sort of coach that many

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Speaker 1: of us think of ourselves as being, many of us

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Speaker 1: working ourselves on our social skills, not necessarily geniuses in

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Speaker 1: that regard. So what does it mean practically to help

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Speaker 1: coach your children on social skills and how does this

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Speaker 1: relate to what happens at camp as well? Well? I

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Speaker 1: love this concept because I feel like so in other places,

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Speaker 1: like in sports or school, everyone's focused on usually like

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Speaker 1: academic performance or athletic performance, and no one's really thinking

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Speaker 1: of social skills as being like the top priority. And

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Speaker 1: even parents generally don't feel that way, Like they don't

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Speaker 1: start the day thinking, Okay, I need to really make

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Speaker 1: sure that today my child gets some opportunities for social

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Speaker 1: skills development. But at camp, that is one hundred percent

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Speaker 1: what we're about. We're not thinking about academics, we're not

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Speaker 1: thinking about you know, the sports stuff, at least at

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Speaker 1: traditional programs, and so our whole focus, what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about with our counselors before camp starts is how are

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Speaker 1: we going to build the connections? How are we going

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Speaker 1: to help kids learn to be better friends? You know?

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Speaker 1: And so that's our focus and I love that that's

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Speaker 1: what we get to research and study and practice at camp.

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Speaker 1: And I've really figured that after being at camp for

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Speaker 1: so long. I mean, kids are with us for a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks, but they're with you all year, and

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Speaker 1: so this kind of focus on relational skills needs to

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Speaker 1: be all the time, not just when they're at camp.

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Speaker 1: And you know, you know how schools go through these

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Speaker 1: phases where they were really focused on character development character counts. Well,

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Speaker 1: now the big buzzwords is SEL social emotional learning, because

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Speaker 1: they've realized that kids aren't going to learn at school

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Speaker 1: if they don't feel that they belong, if they don't

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Speaker 1: feel like they can talk to the person next to

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Speaker 1: them and communicate with their teacher. And of course we

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Speaker 1: all know this intuitively that your relationship skills are going

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Speaker 1: to be the most important skills in any jobt whether

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Speaker 1: you're a doctor or anything. You need to be able

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Speaker 1: to communicate and relate to other people, and I think

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Speaker 1: parents could spend more time focusing on that, because I

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Speaker 1: think if you spend your whole day worrying about like

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Speaker 1: helping them with their math, for example, you could spend

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Speaker 1: an hour helping them with their math. Or you could

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Speaker 1: have a family together where everyone's asking each other different questions,

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Speaker 1: and that family dinner together could end up being more

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Speaker 1: valuable in the long term. I love that. So, as

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Speaker 1: you mentioned, many many kids love camp. Do you have

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Speaker 1: tips for kids who might not love camp? Do you

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Speaker 1: see that? Do you see that change? Does it relate

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Speaker 1: to age? Talk about our reluctant campers. Oh gosh, it's

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Speaker 1: they're my favorites. Honestly, the reluctant campers are the ones

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Speaker 1: who usually benefit the most from the experience, even if

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Speaker 1: it's a bit of a challenge or a lot of

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Speaker 1: a challenge. So I'm not saying that every kid is

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Speaker 1: great for every camp, but I do believe there's a

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Speaker 1: match for every child. There's a camp program that could

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Speaker 1: be great for every kid. So you know, it's and

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Speaker 1: I am a huge proponent of it. And I actually

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Speaker 1: feel like kids who are most hesitant about going to

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Speaker 1: care are often the ones who might benefit the most.

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Speaker 1: So a couple of things. I've done a whole podcasts

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Speaker 1: on this topic and written about it a lot. One

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Speaker 1: thing is, as a parent, you first have to decide

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Speaker 1: what your philosophy is going to be on the topic

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Speaker 1: of your child being away from you, because I think

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Speaker 1: there is always this ambivalence for parents that you love

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Speaker 1: your kids so much, your life is very focused on

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Speaker 1: them and revolves around them, and so when they start

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Speaker 1: getting to an age where they can go off and

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Speaker 1: do things without you, there's a bit of a that's

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Speaker 1: kind of a hard thing to deal with for some parents.

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Speaker 1: So I think there's two parts of this. There's the

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Speaker 1: reluctant camper and then there's also the reluctant parent I've

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Speaker 1: had I've had parents standing next to their fourteen year

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Speaker 1: old say to me, he's just not ready for camp yet. Wow.

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Speaker 1: And so and that's the that's where we have to

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Speaker 1: really think about is it really your child who's not

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Speaker 1: ready or are you not ready? And are you communicating

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Speaker 1: to your child, you know, whether you're doing it consciously

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Speaker 1: or not, that they're not ready, Because that's a big

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Speaker 1: thing for parents, our kids, I don't know, you know,

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Speaker 1: about mirror neurons. They get so much just from looking

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Speaker 1: at our facial expression. You know, if someone's talking about

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Speaker 1: camp and you're like, oh my gosh, you know your

428
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Speaker 1: facial expression is we would never do that. Your kid

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Speaker 1: looks at you and thinks, oh, I guess I better

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Speaker 1: not do that. But what do It must be a

431
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,440
Speaker 1: scary thing. Yeah, what do you do when you let's

432
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 1: say we've got a kid who shows up and he

433
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 1: or she is is really homesick, really having a tough

434
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: you know, adjustment to camp. How do you work with

435
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 1: those those campers and help them have a good experience.

436
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 1: It's it's really a great, great experience. First of all,

437
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 1: it's a lot of empathy and validating their feelings and saying,

438
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, this is really hard this is you're doing.

439
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 1: You know, this is a really difficult thing you're doing.

440
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 1: It's really challenging for you. We talk a lot about

441
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 1: where you're feeling it. You know, a lot of kids

442
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 1: get stomach aches, they get actually, you know, symptoms from

443
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: feeling homesick. We talk about what they love about home

444
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 1: and how great it is that they have such a

445
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: nice family and home that they would miss it. We

446
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: talk about how everybody misses home, even adults. When you're

447
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 1: on a trip, there are things you missed about home.

448
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 1: You look forward to getting back to your own bed

449
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 1: and your own routine. And then we also just talk

450
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 1: about different We help them strategize different coping mechanisms for

451
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 1: dealing with the difficult emotions that they're facing. And kids

452
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 1: are really smart. We actually do a lot of prep

453
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 1: work to ahead of time, so, especially with parents who

454
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 1: anticipate that their child will have some difficulties with the separation,

455
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: talking to them a lot ahead of time and normalizing

456
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: those feelings, because part of the problem for kids is

457
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 1: if they feel like they're having this really terrible feeling

458
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 1: and it's really uncomfortable, and they're not used to being uncomfortable,

459
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 1: they think it's so bad that they just must get

460
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: out of it immediately. But if the parents have communicated

461
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 1: ahead of time that it's normal to sometimes feel that

462
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 1: way and it's okay, and they're confident that they'll be

463
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: able to work through those feelings, that's huge for kids,

464
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 1: even the most homesick kids. If they get the message

465
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: from their parents that their parents are sad, that they're

466
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 1: feeling so sad, but are really confident that they can

467
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: work through those feelings. That's a great thing. And we

468
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 1: always tell parents never do a pickup deal, you know,

469
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 1: never say I'll come pick you up early. But know

470
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: that at camp, the camp is very aware of kids

471
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: and what's going on, and if the feelings are so

472
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 1: extreme and they go on for too long, the director

473
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: will work with the parents and figure out something. There

474
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 1: are occasionally cases where a shortened stay is good if

475
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: you can end it on a really positive note like

476
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: you did great, But rarely does that end up being

477
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: best for the child. Honestly, when they overcome those feelings,

478
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: they are on top of the world. I have so

479
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: many kids, I mean, thirty four years of camp. You

480
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 1: wouldn't believe some of the things kids have said to

481
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: me about how I mean, I can't do this. I'm

482
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 1: not a camp person. You know, this is terrible. I'm uncomfortable.

483
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 1: And then one of them is a five year camper

484
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: this year. One of these kids who I had these

485
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: conversations with when she was a first year camper and

486
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: her parents knew she was an anxious kid and everything

487
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 1: new is always hard for her. But it's been the

488
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: most terrific experience. So I would encourage parents who have

489
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: a reluctant camper to first of all, find a program

490
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 1: that is good at helping kids through that, and really

491
00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: be honest with them ahead of time, talk to them

492
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 1: and also prep your child for the experience and let

493
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: them know that even though you know the camp video

494
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: looks really fun, there's going to be some hard times too,

495
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 1: and that's okay. You're proud of them. You know they

496
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: can do it. So what you said, you know this

497
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 1: person is a five year camper. Now, when is a

498
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: good age for kids to start going to camp? And

499
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: is there sort of a you scale it up, like

500
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 1: try a two night kind of thing and then try

501
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: a seven night kind of You know, I'm curious if

502
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: there is a best practice for age appropriateness for all this,

503
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 1: and if you can include on the back end, when

504
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 1: does attending camp sometimes blend into possibly like working in camp?

505
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,479
Speaker 1: Does that sometimes happen? So yeah, give us a spectrum. Okay, Well,

506
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: you know that seems like such a simple question, like

507
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 1: I should just have an age so when I have

508
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: to answer it really quickly, I just say that for

509
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 1: an overnight camp, around nine or ten is awesome, but

510
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: many kids start younger. Especially younger siblings of kids. So

511
00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: what I always tell parents is if they have a

512
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: younger child, like anywhere from six to eight, if the

513
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: child is an independent kind of kid, often a younger

514
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: sibling who's been at camp, toured camp with the family

515
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: and is saying I want to go, they'll be fine.

516
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 1: If your child is eleven, twelve, thirteen and they're saying, oh,

517
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to go, I don't want

518
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 1: to do this, that's the time that's getting kind of

519
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: critical because if they're not going to do camp, do

520
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: you have some other kind of independent experience that they're

521
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: going to do so I doesn't have to be camp necessarily.

522
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 1: But I really believe we're not setting our kids up

523
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 1: for success as adults if we don't give them some

524
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: opportunities when they're kids, for short times away from parents,

525
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: and the opportunity to develop their own self, like they

526
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: can solve their own problems, they can make some decisions,

527
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: even if it's as simple as what they're going to

528
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 1: choose for lunch. These opportunities to do something without their

529
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: parents right nearby helping are really important for younger kids.

530
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 1: I think we sometimes think that our child's just going

531
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: to magically they're going to graduate from high school, We're

532
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 1: going to send them off to college, and there's going

533
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: to be just this switch that all of a sudden

534
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: they're this self reliant, independent person, And that's not what's happening.

535
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: A lot of kids are struggling at eighteen nineteen twenty

536
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: because they haven't built up those skills that they need

537
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 1: to be okay away from parents. So camp, to me,

538
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: is just this really short, easy way to start developing

539
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: those skills younger, so that by the time you get

540
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: to these bigger life adventures like college or maybe studying

541
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: abroad or other things like that, they feel more prepared.

542
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: They might still struggle in some areas, but they at

543
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: least have built up this confidence. Well, I've been to camp,

544
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: I've done this. You know I can do this too. Yeah.

545
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: And a lot of your employees are on the young side, right,

546
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: I mean that's part of, you know, managing a camp.

547
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: So could you talk a little bit about them in particularly.

548
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: I bet we have some listeners who are managing younger workers,

549
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: many people in some of their first jobs. What have

550
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: you learned over the years for making that a good

551
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: managerial experience and a good first job experience for people too. Oh,

552
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: the counselors are great. I think we automatically get just

553
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: fantastic people who want to work at camp because when

554
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: you think about it, they're nineteen, twenty, twenty one, twenty

555
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: two year old college students who have chosen, after being

556
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: at college all year, to come work at camp during

557
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: the summer. So just that alone is a good indication

558
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 1: that both they and their parents are comfortable with their

559
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: own kind of doing their own adventures, doing their own thing.

560
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: I think a lot of parents would say, oh, I

561
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: want you home for the summer. You've been away at college.

562
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of parents would think that. But

563
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: a lot of our counselors were campers themselves, and so

564
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: the parents recognize the benefits of the experience and are

565
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: okay with them being gone. Because counselors work the whole summer,

566
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: it's like a ten or twelve week commitment. We actually

567
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: don't like it to be their first job. It can

568
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: be for some, but for most people it's not. We

569
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: really encourage kids to have other kind of part time

570
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: jobs during college during their summers before they work at

571
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: camp because it is a very intense job. As you

572
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 1: can imagine it's a lot like parenting, very little time off,

573
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: very intense. It's an intense load physically and emotionally taking

574
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: care of kids twenty four hours a day, and so's

575
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: it seems kind of like I think people sort of

576
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: romanticize it, like, oh, a camp counselor how fun it

577
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: is fun. It has a lot of very rewarding parts,

578
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: but it's also extremely hard managing a large group of kids,

579
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: keeping your maintaining your emotional regulation, not getting upset by

580
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: annoying behaviors. They have to learn how to clean up,

581
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: throw up, and deal with like parenting type issues. It's

582
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: a great experience. They learn so much, but it's also hard. Yeah,

583
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 1: I can imagine that would be but rewarding same way,

584
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: and learn a lot of job skills for the rest

585
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: of your life. So we we always end our interviews

586
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: with doing a love of the week, so Sarah and

587
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: I can go first, because that gives people a minute

588
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: to think of something. So, Sarah, what do you have

589
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: for us this week? I now regret not choosing like

590
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: a camp related love if you want, that's okay. This

591
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,239
Speaker 1: is actually the first podcast we're recording on my new

592
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: laptop and I'm kind of in love with it because

593
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: it functions beautifully and it's cute and has this useless

594
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: but very pretty light it up bar in front. It's

595
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: the new MacBook Pro, and yeah, it's definitely my love

596
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: of the week. Yeah. I've been enjoying my MacBook Pro too, though,

597
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:58,479
Speaker 1: I think I should say something camp related. For I

598
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: like my camp spreadsheet that I come up with every

599
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: summer that has the kids' names on the top and

600
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: the weeks of the summer down the left, And this

601
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 1: is how I organize the summer of like, okay, well,

602
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: who's got enough stuff for the summer? Has too much

603
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: stuff for the summer, And make sure that our vacation

604
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: weeks and other things is going in. It's just very

605
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: quick can see the whole thing, and you know, make

606
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: strategic choices, like, you know, not put three kids in

607
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: three camps with the same drop off time but they're

608
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: far from each other during the same week. That's that's

609
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: kind of a rookie mistake, kind of trying to get

610
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: away from that one. All right, So Audrey, how about you. Oh,

611
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: I've been anticipating this because I listen to your podcast

612
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: every week, So I was debating between two, so I

613
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: guess i'll share. One is can I do too? Yeah? Okay,

614
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: So one is I don't know if you guys do

615
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: good Reads, but I love good Reads, And in terms

616
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: of if I'm going to spend time on a social

617
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: media thing, I feel like Goodreads is a really fun one.

618
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: I love what my friends are reading, and then he

619
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: seeing their comments about books and stuff, so I like

620
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: good Reads. And then my other one, and this is

621
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: just total plug for you, Laura, the Before Breakfast podcast.

622
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: I love podcasts so much, but sometimes you know, you

623
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: don't have a lot of time, and I have been

624
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: just pushing play on yours just as I'm getting ready

625
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: in the morning, and I love that feeling of like

626
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: I listened to a whole podcast that was just like

627
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: five or ten minutes, so I really like and I'm

628
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: liking that format. There's some other ones that I'm finding

629
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: I like the short form podcast. So I love podcasts,

630
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: but now I'm kind of discovering that there's some other

631
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: ways to listen that don't require like forty five minutes. Well,

632
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: thank you. I didn't ask her to say that, but

633
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: I'm glad we allowed for two going to be there. Well, Aujie.

634
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for coming on and remind our listeners

635
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: about your book and where they can find it. Everything

636
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: about my book is available at Happy campersbook dot com,

637
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: which is a page on my website, and it's available

638
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,959
Speaker 1: kind of most most book retailers, and there's a lot

639
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: of information. I'm going to be doing a summer read

640
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: along with parents, So each week in July and August,

641
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to be talking about one of the secrets,

642
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: like on a video and having discussion around it and

643
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: sharing different activities and ideas. So I'm just going to

644
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 1: kind of it's going to be fun to not just

645
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: have this book out in the world, but to keep

646
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: reminding people and using it and also building more activities.

647
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,720
Speaker 1: I've I have worked with a lot of other camp directors,

648
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: so I keep building to the activities and ideas that

649
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: we do at camp that people can bring home. So

650
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: I'm excited to just keep sharing this. That's wonderfully cool. Yeah,

651
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 1: So the book is called Happy Campers, and you know,

652
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: we're all in favor of life being like summer camp.

653
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: So thanks so much for coming on, Audrey. It's been great.

654
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me so our question

655
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 1: this week comes from a physician. We of course always

656
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: like our questions from physicians. Sarah especially this lady writes

657
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 1: in that I'm a physician, mom of a three year

658
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 1: old and a one year old, and work in a

659
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 1: busy academic medical center, currently employed full time. As part

660
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: of her job responsibility, she's required to be on call

661
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: every third night and work every third weekend, which, as

662
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: she says, has become increasingly exhausting over the past few

663
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: years as she has a three year old in a

664
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: one year old, and led to significant burnout. There's not

665
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 1: great culture around well being at my institution. As per

666
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: the advice of Laura's books, I have tracked my time

667
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: for four weeks and found that on average, I am

668
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: on call eighty one hours per week. But of these

669
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: eighty one hours, I'm only performing work tasks forty five

670
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: hours per week, which is much less than I originally thought. However,

671
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: I feel that the call in and of itself is

672
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: killing me due to a lack of sleep and no

673
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 1: flexibility during these times. I'm desperate for a change and

674
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: feel I am nearing a breaking point of sorts. I

675
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 1: have another job offer, which is about thirty one hours

676
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: a week and no night call working one weekend day

677
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: shift per month. Trade off I would be point eight

678
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: full time equivalent to the pay is significantly less. She's

679
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 1: always so worried about the long term consequences of leaving

680
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: her institution and whether she'd be giving up her academic

681
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 1: rank in a way that she would never be able

682
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 1: to come back. She says that, you know, I'm not

683
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: also not sure if my current job is really the

684
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 1: entire problem. So I fear making this big change and

685
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: still feeling like a failure as a mom, wife and

686
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: doctor while making significant less money and with less career options.

687
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 1: So she was I would appreciate our feedback on what

688
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: we think she should do. So so, Sarah, you want

689
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: to dive in or you want me to me to start? Uh, well,

690
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 1: I can dive in. Why don't you dive in? I

691
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:38,800
Speaker 1: loved this question because it made me think, and I

692
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: like you, Laura. I read into it that this person

693
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily that excited about her alternative job. But I

694
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: also am reading into it. You know, she's been in

695
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: quote unquote academia, and I think she really needs to

696
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,280
Speaker 1: explore why why she has passion for academia, Like why

697
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 1: you know, she's worried about not being to get back

698
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: into it, which I actually think is questionable, and I'll

699
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: get to that. But what does she love about it?

700
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: If she loves the research, if she loves sort of

701
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: the environment, it may be worth those sacrifices. If she

702
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:18,879
Speaker 1: doesn't know that taking a more community oriented job may

703
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: provide her with a better lifestyle, more money, even if

704
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 1: she has to create a job that's point eight. She

705
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: may find at a point eight job at a non

706
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: academic setting page just as much as a full time

707
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,760
Speaker 1: academic job with far better sort of balance of work duties.

708
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 1: So I think she really needs to explore why she

709
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: feels compelled to stay on that academic track and if

710
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 1: it's really something that's even worth worrying about. The Other

711
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: thing I think is that in terms of the sleep deprivation,

712
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 1: you know, there are a lot of institutions where it's

713
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: starting to be a little bit less common for a

714
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:57,839
Speaker 1: lot of at home overnight shifts. There are more in

715
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 1: house positions, there's more shift work. You may want to

716
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: look and see if even within the realm of academia

717
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: there are other places where you could stay on that track,

718
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: but perhaps just have a different structure of time, now

719
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: that you've identified that, it's actually not the number of

720
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: hours you're working that's terrible, but it's the expectation of

721
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: this twenty four to seven availability, and of course the

722
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 1: sleep deprivation, which some people are definitely better at than others,

723
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 1: but I, like you, find it makes me completely miserable,

724
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 1: and I have found ways to try to minimize it,

725
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: and I've been very happy with that the less I

726
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 1: do of it. And then finally, I guess I would

727
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: look to see does that door really close when you

728
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: leave somewhere else temporarily? I mean, if you're exploring another opportunity,

729
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 1: are you sure that you wouldn't be able to just

730
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 1: jump back right in if they value your contributions, or

731
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: perhaps if you could continue to be active in any

732
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 1: research that you do. I can't imagine that a TV

733
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: that contains a couple years of perhaps a lighter work

734
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: load in a community setting would make you barred from

735
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: future academic work. Ever, It's true you may have to

736
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 1: kind of work your way back up, but if you're

737
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: in the right place, right time, or if you're kind

738
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: of willing to be a clinical workhorse for a while,

739
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: I'm sure you could step back in. So I think

740
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: the only way to really know what's going to work

741
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: is to give something else to try, So that would

742
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: be my vote. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, academia

743
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,760
Speaker 1: is always funny. I mean, I don't know about academic medicine,

744
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: but I know that academia in general, once you're off

745
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: the tenure track, you're basically never back on, so that

746
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: it is different. It is different different in medicine. I

747
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: mean I can even think of when I was a

748
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 1: resident at Duke, a very academic place, our pediatric program director.

749
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: He didn't stay with the program that long, but he

750
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 1: was in academia, left to do private practice for like

751
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: a decade, became an excellent clinician, he was a pomonologist,

752
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 1: and then used his leadership skills. I guess they needed

753
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 1: someone he was the right fit and came right back

754
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: to Duke. And there are also clinical positions in academic

755
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: centers because someone has to see all the patients, so

756
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,399
Speaker 1: it's very different than a college where everyone has their

757
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 1: their LAFE. I guess it would be equivalent to coming

758
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: back as more of an instructor, like someone has to

759
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 1: teach these students and if you're willing to have that

760
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 1: more primarily clinical role. I'm not sure that your background

761
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 1: in sillily matters. Now if your job, if your goal

762
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: is to be chief of an academic division and like

763
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 1: or have like eighty percent protective research time, You're right,

764
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 1: that would be a track that would be very hard

765
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: to jump back onto. But just being a part it

766
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:21,720
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like she has a job like that now,

767
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: so yeah, yeah. I mean the thing with the call schedule,

768
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 1: of course, is that when you have a three year

769
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: old and a one year old and basically she's on

770
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: call every night in the sense that she's dealing with

771
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: the call of her own children and then the call

772
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: of her patients on the other end, I think that's

773
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 1: where it stacks up, as this feeling of being constantly

774
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: on call for all sorts of people, both professionally and personally.

775
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: And if you did not have small children, it might

776
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: be totally fine to have the every third night and

777
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 1: every third weekend, because you'd be able to catch up

778
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: on it for sure, like you'd know you could, Whereas

779
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: I think when you don't know you can, that makes

780
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: it even just like that much more psychologically difficult. I mean,

781
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 1: I know, you posted about that a lot, Sarah. Oh

782
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: my gosh. One of the hardest times of my life

783
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: was when I would be taking my we take call

784
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: a week at a time, and I work even fewer

785
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,320
Speaker 1: hours than you total, probably over that one week period,

786
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 1: but I'm on call for one hundred and sixty eight hours,

787
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: so it's an interesting ratio. But you know, the baby

788
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 1: would be waking me up, and then when the baby

789
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: wasn't waking me up, it felt like the pager was

790
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: waking me up. And it's like, that is misery. I

791
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:31,959
Speaker 1: don't think anybody can have a good experience during that time. Yeah,

792
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 1: so that's really hard. Of course, I think it was

793
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: good that she saw that the work tasks consume forty

794
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: five of the eighty one hours, because then you can

795
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: start up at least ask the question of like, well,

796
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: what can I prioritize during the other times. I mean,

797
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: obviously sleep you want to prioritize during the overnight shifts.

798
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: But maybe you could give yourself permission to read or

799
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: something like give yourself a lot of reading time or

800
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: something as another thing you could do. But what might

801
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: make some of that other thirty six hours feel not horrible, right,

802
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: is there anything you could do during that time. As

803
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,439
Speaker 1: for the question of should I take this other job,

804
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I think when you are facing extreme burnout,

805
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: you can kind of grasp at anything. And it sounds

806
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 1: like from this letter she is not excited about this

807
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: other job. It's just that it's not her current job,

808
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: and so she's like, I gotta do something. But this

809
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: is probably not the only other job in the world

810
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 1: that would make use of your skills. That if you

811
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: are seriously considering leaving your institution, then why not broaden

812
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: it up. Say well, let me look at all the

813
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 1: other places that might employ a physician of my specialty

814
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: around here. Let me look at everything I might do,

815
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: let me talk to lots of people. Say that, because

816
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 1: there's probably something else that pays well, may have less call,

817
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: or is a different set of call, like Sarah was saying,

818
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: you know where you actually get a twelve hour shift

819
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: and then you're off or whatever it is. But if

820
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: you're going to broaden your seargery, maybe even your family

821
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 1: might be willing to move. I mean, I don't know

822
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: what this lady's partner does, but maybe hey or she

823
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: would be willing to move elsewhere. You know, then you

824
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 1: can look all over the place, and so once you

825
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 1: know that you are seriously looking for something else than

826
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: what you are currently doing, then you don't have to

827
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: take the first thing that you see, because if you're

828
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: not excited about it, like you still have to do

829
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: the stuff of your job, like you can't only live

830
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: on lifestyle, And that I think would be one of

831
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: the points we see a lot in Best of both

832
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: worlds is people are unhappy about the lifestyle and so

833
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 1: then they get to something else that there may have

834
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 1: a good lifestyle, but they don't like the stuff of

835
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 1: the job. Like I think you still have to like

836
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 1: the stuff of the job. And if there was a

837
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: reason you chose this specialty, like you really like what

838
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,800
Speaker 1: it is, or you like the maybe it's the academic medicine,

839
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: as Sarah was mentioning, that you know, ask whether that's

840
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 1: the part you really like. You want to make sure

841
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: you're still doing that because you still have to like

842
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: your job, whether you're doing it for thirty hours or

843
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: forty five as part of an eighty one hour you

844
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: know call schedule. So I think that that's a separate

845
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: question and you need to look at both. And if

846
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 1: you are seriously considering leaving your institution, but you're not,

847
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,760
Speaker 1: you know, thrilled about this other job opportunity. Maybe broaden

848
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: the search and see what you can come up with.

849
00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: But I know that call never Sarah's favorite, so I

850
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 1: guess anyone reading her her blog has. I think my

851
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: generation dislikes call more than previous generations did. And I'm

852
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 1: interesting to see how interested to see how things devolve.

853
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 1: You know, I'm now a program director at a residency program,

854
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: a residency program which has no call. They have shift work,

855
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: they have overnights. There's no call for us. It's a

856
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: recruitment tool because we're a relatively new program. But I

857
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: have actually heard a number of meetings that a lot

858
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 1: of programs are headed in that way, which is crazy

859
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: because I didn't train that long ago, and I had

860
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: thirty hour shifts galore, and they were misery. So now

861
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: that we're training our residents to see that as crazy,

862
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: I'm not sure they're going to want to take attending

863
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: jobs where those exist. And I think the market may change.

864
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 1: I don't think people are necessarily going to work less,

865
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 1: although I do think there may be more opportunity for

866
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 1: kind of point seven point eight kind of positions that

867
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: are really maybe more like forty five hours and that

868
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,879
Speaker 1: honestly pay pretty well, because when you take off twenty

869
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 1: percent of a physician's salary, it often is still a

870
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 1: reasonable number. But yeah, I do think this is going

871
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 1: to be an area of a lot of change in

872
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: the next decade or so. Yeah, so stay tuned for that. Well,

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00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 1: this has been best at Both Worlds. We've mostly been

874
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 1: talking about camp, but also some here about call schedules

875
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 1: and lifestyle related to that. Tune in next week for

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00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: more on making work and life fit together. Thanks for listening.

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00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com

878
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 1: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can

879
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 1: find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has

880
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 1: been the best of Both Worlds podcasts. Please join us

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00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 1: next time for more on making work and life work together.