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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with Part

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Speaker 3: three of our series on the physical property of stickiness.

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Speaker 3: Maybe you didn't know we were going to do a

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Speaker 3: part three, Maybe we didn't know we were going to

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Speaker 3: do a part three, but here we are back to

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Speaker 3: finish it out today.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: In Part one of this series, we talked about starches

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Speaker 3: and sticky foods, most notably sticky rice aka sweet rice

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Speaker 3: aka glutinous rice, a wonderful food stuff that has a

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Speaker 3: lot of interesting chemical properties. And this sort of came

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Speaker 3: up in the context of my inspiration for this series,

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Speaker 3: which was, you know, my young child is eating fruits

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Speaker 3: and fruit based foods and those tend to like leave

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Speaker 3: mysterious sticky patches all over the house. Now, but so

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Speaker 3: we did that in part one. In Part two, we

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Speaker 3: talked about the unbelievably sticky feet of geckos, and we

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Speaker 3: also talked about a chapter in a book I've been

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Speaker 3: reading called Sticky, The Secret Science of Surfaces by Lori Winkless,

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Speaker 3: which is out just this year. And this chapter talked

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Speaker 3: about different ways that adhesive materials actually stick to one another.

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Speaker 3: Seems like it is much more complicated and less well

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Speaker 3: understood than you might guess.

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Speaker 2: That's right. The one of the realities we keep coming

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Speaker 2: up against in this series is that, yeah, the word

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Speaker 2: sticky covers a lot of ground, and so you know,

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Speaker 2: if you can't just narrow it down and say, oh, look,

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Speaker 2: this is sticky and this is something else, like what

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Speaker 2: kind of sticky? What flavor of sticky are you talking about?

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Speaker 2: It's a very general turn.

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Speaker 3: And as we come back to explore the topic for

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Speaker 3: one more episode, I'm going to take us in a

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Speaker 3: much less physical and more metaphorical direction because I got

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Speaker 3: very interested in the idea of sticky mental content. What

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Speaker 3: makes a memory or an idea stick in the mind.

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Speaker 3: And of course this is a question that could be

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Speaker 3: looked at a ton of different ways. I just isolated

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Speaker 3: one facet of this issue because it was so interesting

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Speaker 3: to me. What I want to talk about is something

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Speaker 3: known as flash bulb memories. Rob, I wonder if you

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Speaker 3: have similar experiences to this. I remember, when I was

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Speaker 3: young hearing my parents and friends of theirs. People in

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Speaker 3: my parents' age. You know, they'd be talking at a

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Speaker 3: party or get together or something, and I remember them

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Speaker 3: saying almost this exact sentence. I remember exactly where I

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Speaker 3: was when I heard about the Kennedy assassination.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I remember hearing the sort of thing growing up,

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Speaker 2: and then of course post nine to eleven there were

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Speaker 2: all new versions of this. Everyone not everyone, but a

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Speaker 2: lot of people had a similar take. I remember exactly

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Speaker 2: where I was, what I was wearing, what breakfast cereal,

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Speaker 2: the ceial I was eating when this occurred.

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Speaker 3: Right, exactly right. So in these types of memories, you

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Speaker 3: find out about some public event that has happened, and

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Speaker 3: you seem to have a memory of that moment of

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Speaker 3: finding out that is just rich with incredible, vivid detail,

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Speaker 3: and you have extreme confidence about the accuracy of those details.

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Speaker 3: I remember my parents saying this about the Kennedy assassination,

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Speaker 3: or people my parents were talking to. People our age,

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Speaker 3: like you say, might have similar memories about the nine

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Speaker 3: to eleven attacks. And if you're one of these people

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Speaker 3: and you have a memory of this kind, you can

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Speaker 3: almost like go back to that moment bodily right now.

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Speaker 3: You remember exactly where you were, who you were with,

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Speaker 3: how you heard about it and so forth. I actually

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Speaker 3: do have a very clear and strong memory of finding

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Speaker 3: out about the nine to eleven attacks in high school.

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Speaker 3: I remember we were gathering for some kind of morning

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Speaker 3: school assembly and I saw a friend of mine and

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Speaker 3: I sat down next to him, and he mentioned that

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Speaker 3: he had heard something. I think he think he said

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Speaker 3: on the radio or something, but he said mentioned he

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Speaker 3: had heard something about a plane hitting the World Trade Center.

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Speaker 3: And I have no way of knowing now if this

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Speaker 3: memory is actually accurate, but it feels extremely accurate. It

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Speaker 3: has stuck in my mind like glue.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I have similar memories. But I also

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Speaker 2: feel like we've covered the we've covered false memories enough

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Speaker 2: on the show before, and we've discussed this exact scenario

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Speaker 2: regarding these these memories that we think we can trust,

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Speaker 2: but ultimately, upon close scrutiny, you know, the details fall apart.

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Speaker 2: Like that's enough to where I really I probably distrust

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Speaker 2: these memories more compared to other memories, just because I

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Speaker 2: know the sort of thing that goes on with them, right,

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Speaker 2: So I'm yeah, so I'm hesitant to really even state

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Speaker 2: that I was wearing this or I was with so

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Speaker 2: and so, and I even even even more recent examples

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Speaker 2: of this sort of thing, like I remember where I

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Speaker 2: was when I heard about the last presidential election results,

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Speaker 2: that sort of thing. But when I pause to think

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Speaker 2: about it for more than a moment and ask myself, well,

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Speaker 2: do you really can you really name all the people

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Speaker 2: that were there? Do you remember exactly where you were

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Speaker 2: when you were finishing up this kayak excursion and then

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Speaker 2: you somebody checked their phone and found the news. No,

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Speaker 2: I'm not that confident in the memory.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I guess the irony is that, given how

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Speaker 3: much we read about memory research and how much we've

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Speaker 3: been primed by all of these studies finding you know,

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Speaker 3: the illusory confidence people have in things. Yeah, maybe maybe

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Speaker 3: the fact that it feels so so sticky in my

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Speaker 3: brain makes me actually more suspicious of it. But people

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Speaker 3: in general, I think, are mostly not suspicious of memories

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Speaker 3: like this. People in general think, well, yeah, maybe memory

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Speaker 3: is inaccurate sometimes. But one I'm absolutely certain about is

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Speaker 3: I remember hearing about the Kennedy assassination, or you know,

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Speaker 3: decades and decades later, or I remember where I was

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Speaker 3: when I heard about nine to eleven. That is like

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Speaker 3: the highest quality memory in my brain. And yet, given

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Speaker 3: neither of these historical examples, you know, nine to eleven

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Speaker 3: or the Kennedy assassination, do we usually have vivid, elaborate

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Speaker 3: memories about other events the same week? You know, if

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Speaker 3: you ask somebody who strongly remembers exactly how they heard

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Speaker 3: about the Kennedy assassination, they don't have detailed memories of

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Speaker 3: what they had for lunch the day before or what

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Speaker 3: they did after school the day after. So what causes

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Speaker 3: the details of a specific memory to become sticky in

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Speaker 3: this way where it stays in your mind for, you know,

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Speaker 3: sixty years later and still feels like it's in such

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Speaker 3: incredibly vivid detail, like you know that you're remembering it

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Speaker 3: exactly right. And why do these memories seem so accurate

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Speaker 3: compared to our forgetfulness of other memories from around the

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Speaker 3: same time in our lives. And why do these kinds

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Speaker 3: of intense, detailed snapshot memories tend to be associated. Of course,

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Speaker 3: we have similarly intense memories about other types of things,

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Speaker 3: But why is a category for these intense vivid memories

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Speaker 3: learning about a big, momentous public event, often a public tragedy.

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Speaker 3: Another often cited example is the Challenger explosion, and it

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Speaker 3: turns out psychologists have actually studied this phenomenon and have

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Speaker 3: looked into these questions. They have firmer answers to some

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Speaker 3: of these questions than other ones. These types of memories

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Speaker 3: have a special name. They're called flash bulb memories. So

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Speaker 3: I think the idea behind the name is it's kind

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Speaker 3: of like there is a flash photograph taken in a

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Speaker 3: darkened room, so everything around it is dark and obscure,

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Speaker 3: but the flash goes off and a picture of a

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Speaker 3: particular moment is captured and then frozen in memory, perhaps

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Speaker 3: for the rest of your life.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I think if we could ask JJ to

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Speaker 2: do this, JJ, can you hit us with just the

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Speaker 2: sound effect of a flash bulb, because many of you

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Speaker 2: haven't heard it in real life life at this point

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Speaker 2: or happened in a long time, but you've probably heard

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Speaker 2: it in movies, often with kind of a freeze framed

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Speaker 2: black and white effect, which does kind of get to

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Speaker 2: the heart of it, like the idea that here is

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Speaker 2: something has occurred and it is just you know, flash

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Speaker 2: bulb sound effect. It is it is set in your

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Speaker 2: mind and it will never change. This is a pristine

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Speaker 2: memory of what is occurring.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so time to mention a source. I've been reading

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Speaker 3: a paper collecting and summarizing the research on flashbulb memories.

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Speaker 3: This paper is called flashbulb Memories, published in Current Directions

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Speaker 3: in Psychological Science in the year twenty sixteen, and this

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Speaker 3: is by William Hurst and Elizabeth A. Phelps. So this

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Speaker 3: is trying to look at all of the research that

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Speaker 3: had been done up till that point and see what

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Speaker 3: conclusions could be drawn. So the term flashbulb memories traces

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Speaker 3: back to a pair of researchers named Roger Brown and

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Speaker 3: James Koolick who studied the phenomenon and published important research

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Speaker 3: on it in the year nineteen seventy seven. So to

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Speaker 3: briefly separate out, just so there's no confusion what flash

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Speaker 3: bold memories are and what they are not. Flash bold

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Speaker 3: memories are memories of the circumstances in which one learned

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Speaker 3: about a public event. So it's when you found out

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Speaker 3: about a public event, and this differentiates it from first

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Speaker 3: hand memories, like the kind of memory where you remember

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Speaker 3: an event that happened to you personally, something you were

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Speaker 3: there for, rather than something that you heard about or

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Speaker 3: read about. So flash bold memories are kind of interesting

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Speaker 3: that they straddle two different kinds of memory at the

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Speaker 3: same time. In one sense, they are autobiographical because they're

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Speaker 3: directly asking you to remember things about where you were

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Speaker 3: and who you were with and what happened to you

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Speaker 3: and what you felt. But they concern that that situation

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Speaker 3: that you're remembering in your own life is elicited by

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Speaker 3: a public event. It's not something that happened directly to you,

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Speaker 3: but a moment of gaining in information, of learning about

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Speaker 3: something that happened to other people. Another distinction is because

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Speaker 3: their autobiographical flashbuld memories are different from what are called

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Speaker 3: event memories in the literature. That name can be a

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Speaker 3: little confusing because it's like, if you have a memory

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Speaker 3: of an event in your life that sounds like that

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Speaker 3: would be an event memory, but what this refers to

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Speaker 3: is information about the public event itself. So you might

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Speaker 3: have your flashbuld memory of finding out about the Kennedy assassination.

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Speaker 3: That's where you were, how you heard about it, all

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Speaker 3: that stuff. But then also there would be public event memories,

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Speaker 3: which would be things like the date that had happened,

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Speaker 3: what time of day, the city it took place in,

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Speaker 3: what type of car Kennedy was riding, in the name

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Speaker 3: of the alleged assassin, and so forth. This is like

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Speaker 3: information about the eliciting event. That's also a different kind

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Speaker 3: of memory. So the flash bold memory is an autobiographical

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Speaker 3: memory about yourself in the circumstance of learning about this

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Speaker 3: important public event. And examples of events that have been

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Speaker 3: studied for creating slash bold memories include assassinations and other

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Speaker 3: politically charged public events. Also things with a more positive connotation.

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Speaker 3: The paper cited, like relevant World Cup victories like if

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Speaker 3: your country wins the World Cup, also events like the

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Speaker 3: fall of the Berlin Wall, and also natural disasters like

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Speaker 3: major earthquakes.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but at least some positive things thrun in the mix.

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Speaker 3: A lot more negative things than positive things have been studied,

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Speaker 3: and I want to talk about that later because that

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Speaker 3: may be interesting. I wonder if there are differences in

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Speaker 3: how those things are recorded. I guess the news that's

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Speaker 3: worth reporting is more often bad than good, right right.

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Speaker 3: So Brown and Kolick, the two researchers who did this

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Speaker 3: important early work on flash bold memories, argued that even

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Speaker 3: though these public events don't happen to us personally. They

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Speaker 3: involve so much emotion that the brain records them kind

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Speaker 3: of as if they did happen to us personally in

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Speaker 3: the moment that we find out about them. So we

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Speaker 3: have these unusual levels of accurate and exquisite detail. So

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Speaker 3: ultimately they sort of said, these memories seem to be

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Speaker 3: reliable and unchanging, like a photograph. In fact, the words

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Speaker 3: they use, which are quoted in this review paper, they

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Speaker 3: say these memories were quote unchanging as the slumbering rhine gold.

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Speaker 2: Oh oh, that's nice. You know, it is interesting the

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Speaker 2: idea that even though it doesn't happen to you directly,

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Speaker 2: like through our media absorption, we do a lot of

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Speaker 2: living vicariously through people in the media, celebrities and the

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Speaker 2: public eye and so forth. And then I also wonder

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Speaker 2: too you think about how we've evolved as a species

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Speaker 2: and the sort of groups we are supposed to occupy,

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Speaker 2: and the sort of information about said groups who would

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Speaker 2: have like we didn't we didn't evolve to live in

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Speaker 2: a continental or global society in which you could have

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Speaker 2: something catastrophic occur that did not directly or potentially directly affect.

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Speaker 3: You, right, I mean yeah, So I almost think there

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Speaker 3: is maybe a mental switch that has to be flipped

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Speaker 3: where we can like ignore most of the news we

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Speaker 3: encounter as being like, well, that doesn't directly affect me.

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Speaker 3: But for some reason, there's an emotional switch that you

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Speaker 3: can flip where even if it doesn't directly affect your life,

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Speaker 3: it's hit that emotion and now it feels like it

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Speaker 3: does It feels like it happened. You know, something that

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Speaker 3: happened to the president of the United States feels like

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Speaker 3: it happened to the leader of your ten person band.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I guess there are a lot of moving

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Speaker 2: parts here because you can also you know, draw in

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Speaker 2: things like social norms and our you know, intense need

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Speaker 2: to fit in socially with our given survival group and

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Speaker 2: so forth.

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Speaker 3: Right, maybe we can come back and speculate more on

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Speaker 3: this when we finish with what the research has found.

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Speaker 3: So what we have brown and cool, Like they say,

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Speaker 3: these memories, they are as unchanging as the slumbering rine goal.

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Speaker 3: Do you just remember what happened in that moment and

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Speaker 3: it never changes the rest of your life. It is

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Speaker 3: like the treasure the under the river, is that under

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Speaker 3: the water being guarded by the Rhyine Maidens.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, the three Rhine Maidens.

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Speaker 3: But the authors of this review paper point out that

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Speaker 3: Brown and Kulick didn't actually have information that would justify

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Speaker 3: the claim that flash bold memories were unchanging as the

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Speaker 3: Rhine gold because they had nothing to compare their subject's

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Speaker 3: accounts too. Essentially, people would be prompted to recall a

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Speaker 3: flash bold memory like do you have a memory of this,

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Speaker 3: and then people would say, just like we've heard before, yes,

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Speaker 3: I remember exactly where I was. This is how I

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Speaker 3: found out, Here's what happened. Here are all the details. Now,

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Speaker 3: in light of other findings in psychology that people can

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Speaker 3: have the strong genuine impression of remembering things in ways

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Speaker 3: that you can prove objectively are inaccurate, some researchers started

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Speaker 3: to doubt whether these flash bold memories were actually as

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Speaker 3: accurate as Brown and Kulick suggested and as act as

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Speaker 3: people generally feel that they are in their own lives.

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Speaker 3: But this would be a difficult thing to test, right, Like,

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Speaker 3: what can you do? You can't follow people around twenty

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Speaker 3: four to seven with a video camera and just wait

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Speaker 3: for them to hear about a major public event and

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Speaker 3: then test them on it later and compare it to

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Speaker 3: the videotape that's obviously not feasible. So while testing the

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Speaker 3: true accuracy of flash Bold memories to the direct events themselves,

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Speaker 3: the moment people find out about these things, that would

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Speaker 3: be extremely difficult. But researchers did come up with what

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Speaker 3: I think is a very clever proxy, and it's very simple.

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Speaker 3: Instead of testing accuracy, they would test consistency, and so

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Speaker 3: this would work on the test retest method. So it

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Speaker 3: works like this, as soon as possible after a major

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Speaker 3: public event, the same day, if possible, or the very

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Speaker 3: next day, you give people a questionnaire asking them to

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Speaker 3: narrate how they found out and answer a whole bunch

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Speaker 3: of autobiographical questions about that moment. You know, where were you,

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Speaker 3: how did you hear about it, who was with you,

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Speaker 3: and so forth, And then you just hold on to

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Speaker 3: their answers to that questionnaire, and then after a delay,

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Speaker 3: you give subsets of that initial sample group at different

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Speaker 3: periods exactly the same questionnaire. So maybe a few days

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Speaker 3: later some people will get it, maybe a few weeks later,

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Speaker 3: a few months, even years down the road, and you

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Speaker 3: simply compare their answers to the later questionnaire to what

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Speaker 3: they said immediately after the event. So what do studies

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Speaker 3: of this sort reveal. Well, the results are a little

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Speaker 3: bit mixed. There were a few reports supporting some broad

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Speaker 3: levels of consistency after delays, but the majority of these

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Speaker 3: studies have found substantial changes to flash Bold memories over time,

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Speaker 3: and for the most part, we have no idea that

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Speaker 3: these changes are happening In our own brains. We remember

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Speaker 3: the flash Bold moment one way a year later, and

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Speaker 3: it feels intensely vivid, inaccurate, and we are sure this

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Speaker 3: is exactly how it happened. We could not be wrong,

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Speaker 3: but it's not what we said happened the same day

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Speaker 3: or the day after. Now, I guess you could say

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Speaker 3: it's possible that the first questionnaire is wrong, that the

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Speaker 3: initial reports from right around the time of the event

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Speaker 3: are not accurate. But if there are differences between what

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Speaker 3: you remember the same day or the day after and

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Speaker 3: what you remember a year later, is it likely that

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Speaker 3: the memory from a year later is the more accurate one.

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Speaker 3: I would tend to think no. And so while consistency

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Speaker 3: is different from accuracy, I think it's a decent proxy

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Speaker 3: for it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, of course, This also brings me back to

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Speaker 2: other memory of related topics we've discussed in terms of

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Speaker 2: retrieval errors and the idea that every time you retrieve

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Speaker 2: a memory, it is susceptible to change. So frequently retrieved memories,

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Speaker 2: or the memories we retrieve the most, are also the

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Speaker 2: ones that have been augmented the most. And I can

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Speaker 2: imagine you have a synay, it's like, what is causing

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Speaker 2: you to retrieve said memory, and the necessity of the

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Speaker 2: retrieval then alters the surface of the memory retrieved.

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Speaker 3: You know, yeah, yeah, I think that may well play

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Speaker 3: a role in what's going on here, because there are

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Speaker 3: patterns of how we treat different types of autobiographical memories,

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Speaker 3: and these flashbulb moments are things that may well be

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Speaker 3: sort of unusually rehearsed compared to other day to day memories.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And then think, for instance, they can be

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Speaker 2: potentially altered by someone else retrieving said memory, someone else

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Speaker 2: telling you where they were when such and such happen,

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Speaker 2: And then you retrieve your story. But maybe it's a

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Speaker 2: little bit different this time. Maybe it's a little more

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Speaker 2: like the one you just heard, or it's sort of

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Speaker 2: almost intentionally different in some regards compared to the one

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Speaker 2: you just heard. There's so many ways you could slice it.

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Speaker 3: Despite the fact that I think Brown and Kolick we're

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Speaker 3: wrong about these memories being accurate and unchanging, or at

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Speaker 3: least being wrong about them being unchanging, they did discover

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Speaker 3: something important, which was that these memories are sticky in

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Speaker 3: one sense. The research reveals the memories are sticky, but

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Speaker 3: they're not sticky in the way that we think they are.

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Speaker 3: They're sticky in the sense that they do stick in

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Speaker 3: the memory, and we recall them later with great ease

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Speaker 3: of retrieval and confidence in their details, and great depth

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Speaker 3: of feeling about our ability to relive the moment. But

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Speaker 3: they're not actually sticky in the sense of preserving the

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Speaker 3: details of what happened on that day unchanged, at least

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Speaker 3: not as well as it feels like they do. In

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Speaker 3: the words of the authors of this review paper, Hurston

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Speaker 3: Phelps quote Brown and Kulick, and researchers employing the test

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Speaker 3: retest method are discussing two different claims about forgetting. Brown

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Speaker 3: and Kulick treated forgetting as a failure to have a memory.

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Speaker 3: You know, somebody's saying I can't remember anything whereas those

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Speaker 3: employing a test retest methodology treat forgetting as a failure

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Speaker 3: to remember the past consistently. When Brown and Kolik stated

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Speaker 3: that there is no forgetting, they are right in the

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Speaker 3: sense that most members of the public report having a

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Speaker 3: memory even after ten years. That's not true about a

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Speaker 3: whole lot that goes on in our lives. But then

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Speaker 3: the authors go on as the test retest work indicates

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Speaker 3: the memory may not be consistent, but it is long lasting.

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Speaker 3: I think that's a really interesting distinction they're making.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there is something about the memory that is lasting,

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Speaker 2: which raises the question why does it last? Why does

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Speaker 2: it remain stuck to the fridge of memory even if

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Speaker 2: the details of the node or the drawing or whatever

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Speaker 2: have changed even substantially.

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Speaker 3: I think that's a great question. So one thing I

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Speaker 3: was fascinated by was details about how the memories change,

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Speaker 3: like what actually changes about them. A few interesting observations

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Speaker 3: they mentioned. One is that there is a type of

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Speaker 3: consistency that emerges in how we remember these memories, but

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Speaker 3: it's not consistency to the day to like the original event.

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Speaker 3: The way they put it is, once a consistency emerges

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Speaker 3: in our memory of a flash bulb event, it tends

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Speaker 3: to stick. So I'm just making up this example. But

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Speaker 3: for illustration, let's say you answer a questionnaire on the

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Speaker 3: day of the event saying that you heard about the

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Speaker 3: event because you were up in the morning by yourself

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Speaker 3: making coffee and you heard about it on the radio

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Speaker 3: in the kitchen, and you can give all these details

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Speaker 3: about that. And then you do the same questionnaire a

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Speaker 3: couple of months later, or even a few weeks later,

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Speaker 3: and you say, you heard about it when you were

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Speaker 3: stuck in traffic with your carpool group on the freeway

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Speaker 3: on the way to work, and you heard about it

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Speaker 3: on the radio. What the research tends to find is

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Speaker 3: people will tend to pretty consistently reproduce the second story.

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Speaker 3: So you ask them again years on and they will

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Speaker 3: tell the same story they told in the later questionnaire,

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Speaker 3: So that one tends to stick as if it were

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Speaker 3: the original one, and people think it's the original one.

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Speaker 3: But for some reason, there's this change that occurs early on,

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Speaker 3: within the first year after the event. So it's kind

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Speaker 3: of like there is a stickiness quality and a consistency equality.

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Speaker 3: But what sticks is not the memory of the event itself,

402
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Speaker 3: but the way it emerges as a narrative in your

403
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Speaker 3: brain typically it's sort of fine. They say that it

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Speaker 3: finds this form within the first year after the event,

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Speaker 3: and once it finds that changed form in the brain.

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Speaker 3: Of course, to be fair, I want to make sure

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Speaker 3: I'm saying it doesn't always change. It just does in

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Speaker 3: a whole lot of cases. Once it finds that changed form,

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Speaker 3: it tends to change a lot less after that. So

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Speaker 3: it's the inaccurate or inconsistent story that we start telling

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Speaker 3: about how we remember the about how we remember the event,

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Speaker 3: that we keep remembering for years on after that fascinating.

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Speaker 3: Another interesting thing the author has mentioned here is that

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Speaker 3: the inconsistent details that emerge in later questionnaires about these

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Speaker 3: flashbulb events are not always like just you know, fabricated

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Speaker 3: details from out of nowhere. One common thing that happens

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Speaker 3: is what they call time slice confusions, and this is

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Speaker 3: essentially the tendency to remember a second or third time

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Speaker 3: you found out about an event as the original time.

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Speaker 3: So maybe you hear about the event on the radio,

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Speaker 3: and then you say in this original questionnaire that later

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Speaker 3: the same day you had a conversation with a friend

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Speaker 3: about the event a few weeks down the road, you

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Speaker 3: might remember the conversation with the friend as how you

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Speaker 3: found out about the event.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting, again, a lot of moving parts there, right,

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Speaker 2: because the first version in theory here is just like

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Speaker 2: a solo discovery of the event of the same second

429
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Speaker 2: one is like a social interaction and you know, conceivably

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Speaker 2: a discussion about the event with social ramifications. And then

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Speaker 2: you're coming back and remembering that. You know, what does

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Speaker 2: that mean? Is it? How much of it is like

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Speaker 2: the power of narrative, like we were talking about, You've

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Speaker 2: given it narrative form, You've given it more life and stickiness.

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Speaker 2: Or is social interaction is that something that gives it

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Speaker 2: more stickiness, et cetera.

437
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it also strikes me as though that was just

438
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 3: a possible example I brought up. I mean, it strikes

439
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 3: me that generally combining multiple finding out about something events

440
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 3: into a single event is the same kind of It's

441
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 3: the same kind of work like you might do when

442
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 3: you're revising a story you've written to like condense things

443
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 3: and to like make it punchier.

444
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, Like, I mean, it even applies I

445
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 2: think to really unimportant things. I mean, you know subjectively,

446
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 2: you know things about like where did you discover a

447
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 2: particular artist? You know, where did you first hear a

448
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 2: particular song? Like, you know, the less interesting version is like,

449
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: oh I heard it a few times and I didn't

450
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 2: like it or didn't notice it, and then finally one

451
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 2: day I just suddenly it sounded good. No, No, you

452
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 2: want like a more pure discovery story if you want

453
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 2: to impress people, It's like, well, I was driving along

454
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 2: this deserted stretch of road and this song started playing

455
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 2: and it was like unlike, it was unlike anything I'd

456
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 2: ever heard before.

457
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,399
Speaker 3: I bet this happens a lot, and this wouldn't be

458
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 3: a flashbold memory, but I bet this same kind of

459
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 3: streamlining of memories happens a lot in how people remember

460
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 3: meeting like their partner significant other, because I think a

461
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 3: lot of times people might be kind of in the

462
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 3: social orbit of somebody and like meet them a few

463
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 3: times and it just doesn't really make any impression, and

464
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 3: then they have a moment where they're like, oh, here's

465
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 3: the first time we really like talked and got to

466
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 3: know each other, and they remember that as their first

467
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 3: meeting when it was not. Actually it was just that

468
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 3: these other earlier meetings are just not very interesting and

469
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 3: nothing happened, so you don't actually remember you met them.

470
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 2: Then, yeah, because sometimes it happens like that in the movies,

471
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 2: but more often than not it doesn't. More often than not,

472
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 2: you have that big dramatic moment, you know, that that

473
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 2: sappy moment of eyes meeting across the room and the

474
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 2: music kicks in, and on some level, yeah, you want

475
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 2: to retell your story in a way that fits the myth,

476
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 2: that fits the you know, the ideal version that has

477
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 2: presented you to you in popular narratives.

478
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 3: So, coming back to this paper, studies have tried to

479
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 3: figure out what are the necessary and sufficient conditions for

480
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 3: the formation of flash bulb memories, when and under what

481
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 3: conditions are they formed, But the goal of finding these

482
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 3: conditions has been it's proven elusive, like it's hard to

483
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,719
Speaker 3: identify features common to all flash bulb type memories. So

484
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 3: the researchers have asked questions like, is the event being

485
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 3: consequential to a person's life necessary or sufficient to call

486
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 3: us a flash bold memory? The answer seems to be no.

487
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 3: We create flash bold memories for things that don't personally

488
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 3: affect us. Of course, we do also for things that

489
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 3: do but they don't have to affect us personally. Sometimes

490
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 3: things that really have no tangible impact on our lives

491
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 3: will make one of these type memories. Also, there are

492
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,719
Speaker 3: lots of things that have major direct impacts on our

493
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 3: lives and they don't elicit flash bold memories when we

494
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 3: find out about them, so it seems to be neither

495
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 3: necessary nor sufficient for it to have impact on us personally.

496
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,360
Speaker 2: Plus, the impact is subjective, right, because I can think

497
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 2: of plenty of examples where a celebrity has passed and

498
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 2: you'll see or know people, or perhaps you are the

499
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 2: person who has like a real significant reaction to it,

500
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 2: And sometimes it's because it lines up with something else

501
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: in your personal life, or it's just you know, you're

502
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 2: a huge fan and all that's fair, but you know,

503
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: it's a different animal than perhaps hearing about this other

504
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 2: celebrity that the same week that you don't have the

505
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 2: connection with, or they don't remind you of your dad

506
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 2: or your mom or your grandfather or something.

507
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 3: Right, And unsurprisingly, there's at least some research finding that

508
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 3: people are more likely to report high confidence in the

509
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 3: accuracy of their flash bold memories if the central figure

510
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 3: in the public event is someone they feel a social

511
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 3: bond with. And that comes around to another factor influencing

512
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 3: the formation of these memories that the researchers bring up,

513
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 3: and that's the concept of social identity. It seems like

514
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 3: flash bold memories, even though they relate to finding out

515
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 3: about public rather than personal events, are more likely to

516
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 3: be things that somehow kind of form the story of yourself.

517
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 3: So to read a passage from Hurst and Phelps here

518
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 3: quote they play this role in part because they mark

519
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 3: those instances during which people feel that they are part

520
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 3: of the history of their social group. In nineteen eighty two,

521
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 3: wrote and here they're quoting this other researcher. One quote

522
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 3: recalls an occasion where two narratives that we ordinarily keep separate,

523
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 3: the course of history and the course of our lives,

524
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 3: were momentarily put into alignment. Details are linked between our

525
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 3: own history and history capital h flashball memories are the

526
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 3: places we line up our lives with the source of

527
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 3: history itself, and say, I was there, I thought that

528
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 3: was really interesting. Yeah, yeah, about the intersection of the

529
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 3: two lines. So, yeah, we tell the story of ourselves.

530
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 3: But sometimes there's just like the moment that connects with

531
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 3: the event that everybody else remembers, with something that was

532
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 3: known and experienced by everyone, almost kind of like the

533
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 3: forest gump syndrome, you know it just keep you're intersecting

534
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 3: with known public events in history, and for some reason

535
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 3: we form these feelings were remembering these events very strongly,

536
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 3: and they stick with us throughout our lives.

537
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 2: Hmm.

538
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:09,479
Speaker 3: Fascinating, And the authors point out interesting findings that the

539
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 3: common feelings of a social group about a historical event

540
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 3: may affect and alter how members of that group remember

541
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 3: the autobiographical details of learning of that event themselves. For example,

542
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 3: the authors cite one study that this is the kind

543
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 3: of finding that it's like almost too perfect, So I

544
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 3: wouldn't want to hang too much on this study. In

545
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 3: less similar findings were replicated all over the place, but

546
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 3: in isolation. It is interesting. So the researchers were Berntson

547
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 3: and Thompson in two thousand and five, and they studied

548
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 3: elderly Danes who had something like flash bolt memories of

549
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 3: when they learned about the German invasion of Denmark, the

550
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 3: Nazi invasion of their country in World War Two, and

551
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 3: when they learned about the German withdrawal from their country.

552
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 3: In these autobiographical memories related to these public events, the

553
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 3: Danes were more likely to remember the weather as being

554
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 3: worse than it was on the day they found out

555
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 3: about the invasion, and to remember the weather as being

556
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 3: better than it actually was on the day of the withdrawal.

557
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 3: So like these autobiographical memories are being influenced by like

558
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 3: you know, sort of like feelings as part of a

559
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 3: social group about the moral valence or the positive or

560
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 3: negative valance of what's happening in the news. Finally, another

561
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 3: feature of these these sticky memories can be illustrated in

562
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 3: the title of a paper from two thousand and three

563
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 3: by Jennifer M. Talerico and David C. Rubin, and that

564
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 3: title is confidence, not consistency, characterizes flash bold memories. This

565
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 3: was in psychological science again this the year two thousand

566
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 3: and three. Hurston Phelps write, quote One agreed upon difference

567
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 3: between flash bold memories and everyday autobiographical memories, even those

568
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 3: that are raed as important, is that confidence in flash

569
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 3: bold memories remains high even when consistency declines, whereas confidence

570
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 3: in every day autobiographical memories declines along with consistency, So

571
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 3: does that make sense? Like the memories for regular events,

572
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 3: they decline in consistency, you know, trying to remember what

573
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:22,479
Speaker 3: you had for lunch or what you talked about at

574
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 3: work or whatever, that declines in consistency of recall. Over time,

575
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 3: we remember them differently. But also for those regular events,

576
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 3: we lose confidence in how accurate those memories are. So ironically,

577
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 3: for normal memories, we're sort of accurately assessing that our

578
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 3: fading memories might be wrong. Whereas with these incredibly sticky,

579
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 3: flash bold memories, we lose consistency of recall. Over time.

580
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 3: They do degrade in quality, and you can show that

581
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 3: it changes how we remember them, but we're much more

582
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 3: likely to say in these cases with very high confidence, no, no, no,

583
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 3: it's not changing. I remember exactly how it happened.

584
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, the way that I recall it being discussed

585
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 2: before in the past, when I read about it was that, yeah,

586
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 2: these these additional details, things like what what was I

587
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 2: eating for breakfast? Or what did I wear that day,

588
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 2: or even you know, some of the other things surrounding

589
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 2: the discovery or the you know, the or the hearing

590
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 2: of the word you. The brain kind of fills in

591
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 2: the blanks on that. Uh, it's like that there's something

592
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: more important that has to be solidified in your memory,

593
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 2: and therefore it kind of like the memory. The rest

594
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: of the memory is rushed. They're like, well, it's like

595
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 2: there's an assembly crew in there, and it's like, well,

596
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 2: what should we put down for breakfast on this memory?

597
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter, just put down anything. We can change

598
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 2: it later. We will change it later. The important thing

599
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 2: is that this terrible thing happened or this great thing happened,

600
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 2: and they heard about it and and yeah, yeah, and

601
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: that you were that they were there, and that they

602
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 2: they are part of it. I like this idea that

603
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, it's like the capital h h history

604
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 2: and lowercase age history converging. Like in a way, it's

605
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's it's defining self in comparison to

606
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,919
Speaker 2: the larger group. You know, perhaps you can also throw

607
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: in the you know, vital survival information as well. Something

608
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 2: terrible happened and it has to be remembered because I

609
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: want slash need to avoid terrible things. But yeah, the

610
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 2: details are not as important. It's that it's that central

611
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,839
Speaker 2: detail that has to be recorded, right.

612
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 3: That moment of finding out feels entirely like you can

613
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 3: recreate it in your mind right now. But there's a

614
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 3: good chance that if you had written down what happened

615
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 3: to that day and you compared it to what you

616
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,240
Speaker 3: remember now, it would be different. And so a question

617
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 3: would be, why are we so confident about the accuracy

618
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 3: of our flash bold memories when research shows that, you know,

619
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 3: you can show that they're not as accurate as we

620
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 3: think they are, And this is hard to say, The

621
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 3: authors point out, you know, there's a general finding about

622
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 3: memory that quote, vivid elaborateness and ease of retrieval are

623
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: thought to influence the judgment that an event occurred. So

624
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 3: if you can make the details of a memory really vivid,

625
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 3: you know, you can just see them in your mind,

626
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 3: And if you can add lots of details, and if

627
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 3: you can make the memory come to mind without much effort,

628
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 3: people have more confidence that the memory is accurate, even

629
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 3: if it's not. And this would apply to other memory,

630
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 3: other types of memories too, And they're just maybe features

631
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 3: of flashbold memories that incubate these qualities of vividness, elaborateness,

632
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 3: and an ease of retrieval. Maybe because they come up

633
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 3: often in conversation or maybe because of this, maybe it

634
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 3: has something to do about this, Yeah, this intersection or

635
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 3: connection point with history more broadly, that that causes us

636
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 3: to almost kind of like write them out as a

637
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 3: detailed story in the mind in a way that you

638
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 3: don't do for most other events, even important events.

639
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you end up having high confidence in

640
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 2: this narrative that is ultimately you know, it can be,

641
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 2: you know, defining of yourself. And so of course you

642
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 2: can have confidence in it, because what happens when you

643
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 2: don't have confidence in the in the autobiographical stories that

644
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 2: define who you are, I mean, you end up like

645
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 2: I guess, you know, at least like me, because I

646
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 2: feel like every time we cover these these memory topics

647
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,959
Speaker 2: that kind of if it forces a lot of self

648
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 2: reflection on the memories that do define me, you know,

649
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 2: and I think back on them as like, well, you know,

650
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 2: to what extent is that what happened? And then to

651
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 2: what extent doesn't matter if it's not like you have

652
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 2: to sort of face the fact that you know, all

653
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 2: memories are potentially incorrect to some degree.

654
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 3: Right, And you know, I want to come back on

655
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 3: the other hand, and say that all these studies about

656
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 3: the faultiness of memory, they don't mean that, like, none

657
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,439
Speaker 3: of your memories are accurate. You know, probably a lot

658
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 3: of your memories are basically accurate. The point is that

659
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 3: they're not as reliable as they feel.

660
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 2: There's a lot of truth in your memories.

661
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, there's just like there's a decent chance that

662
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 3: you remember a lot of things with high confidence and

663
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 3: in fact it didn't happen that way. Yeah, but plenty

664
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 3: of things did happen more or less the way you

665
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 3: remember them.

666
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and it cuts both ways, right, I mean,

667
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 2: it can You can certainly have a memory that is

668
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 2: more traumatic because it has been made more traumatic through

669
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 2: recall and through you know, the way that it is

670
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 2: ultimately embellished through memory. But other times, like you remember

671
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 2: something with kind of rose tinted glasses, you know, you

672
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 2: remember the fun part of a particular vacation as opposed

673
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 2: to the you know, the minor squabbles that may have

674
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 2: accompanied the endeavor. Right.

675
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 3: Oh, And because so one thing that springs up is

676
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 3: that with flashbul memories, because they often involve these these

677
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 3: public events that are negative in quality that could lead

678
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 3: people to the to the erroneous assumption that flashbul memories

679
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 3: work the same way like traumatic memories of first hand

680
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 3: events work, and that's not necessarily true. We don't know

681
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 3: the extent to which there are similarities and differences there fully,

682
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 3: first hand traumatic memories I think are going to be

683
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 3: governed by possibly some different thing this than these flash

684
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 3: bold memories are. But that also brings us to this

685
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 3: question that you brought up earlier, that I think is

686
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 3: a good one. A few studies have looked at flash

687
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 3: bold memories elicited by positive public events. You know, follow

688
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 3: the Berlin Wall, a lot of people who remember that

689
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 3: see that is a positive thing, or you know, maybe

690
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 3: World Cup victories for your home country or something. But

691
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 3: most of these studies look at negative events, and that

692
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 3: probably just has a lot to do with like the

693
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 3: nature of big public events in the news. You know,

694
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 3: there's more often a big negative event than a big

695
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 3: positive event, at least in how it's covered in the media.

696
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 3: So if we had more investigations of big public positive events,

697
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 3: do you think there would be any major differences in

698
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 3: memory responses or would it be pretty much the same thing?

699
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess one of the I mean one of

700
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 2: the problems is just like the the negative the catastrophic

701
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 2: headlines are the ones that like instantly come to mind,

702
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 2: Like when when you try to, I have trouble just

703
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 2: thinking of of significant good news events that would have

704
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 2: that kind of magnitude. They would have to be you know,

705
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 2: you know, things like the you know, the end of

706
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 2: major wars, the you know, just overwhelmingly good news. And

707
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 2: it seems like the moon landing maybe moonlanding, moon landing,

708
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 2: moon landing is a good one.

709
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, this might just be a fact of reality that

710
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 3: good news is stuff that tends to develop gradually over time,

711
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 3: and then you can sort of discover it retrospectively. You

712
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 3: can be like, oh, something very good happened over the

713
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 3: last twenty five years gradually, whereas bad news often tends

714
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 3: to happen all at once.

715
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, I think. I think you're right. Though.

716
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 2: It's like the way we retrospectively evaluate the importance of

717
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 2: them moment is key, and you know it's and is

718
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 2: there like this one moment that really like rings out

719
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 2: as opposed to like a gradual swelling.

720
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 3: Right, Like if you're trying to remember a public person,

721
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 3: if it's a person you have positive feelings about the

722
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 3: good things they did are probably like a whole career

723
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 3: of good things that developed gradually and you could develop

724
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 3: an appreciation for it. It didn't happen one day, but they

725
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 3: might they die on one day.

726
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 2: Right. It punctuates this lifetime of achievements or contributions, et cetera.

727
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 2: You know, forces you to reflect on those and value

728
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 2: those often, you know, value those even more while also

729
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 2: feeling you know this at very least intense bitter sweetness

730
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 2: regarding the whole situation where you realize, oh, I loved

731
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 2: all these albums that say David Bowie put out, I

732
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 2: liked the last album, but I didn't know it was

733
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 2: going to be the last album, and now I do. So,

734
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of emotions to feel about those moments.

735
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,959
Speaker 3: So there we go. Flash bold memories actually very stick

736
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 3: but not in the way people think they are. Yeah,

737
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 3: illusory stickiness maybe so. So I thought that was very interesting,

738
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 3: and maybe we can come back to other types of

739
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 3: sticky memories and sticky memory research in the future.

740
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think we will. You know, we'll always come

741
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: back to memory based topics. All right. For the last

742
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 2: little bit here, I want to bring it back to

743
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 2: physical stickiness, I thought it might be interesting to think

744
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 2: about sticky substances, specifically glues and adhesives in history. The

745
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 2: most crucial sticky substance to consider in all of this

746
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 2: is plant resin. Plant resin is exuded by some trees

747
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,800
Speaker 2: and other plants, such as fir and pine trees in particular,

748
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 2: and most resin trickles out in response to injury of

749
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 2: some sort to the tree or plant in question. These

750
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 2: resins are not soluble in water, and they typically lose

751
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 2: volatile compounds via evaporation, leaven behind a soft residue that

752
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,760
Speaker 2: is initially soluble but becomes insoluble as it ages. Okay, initially, however,

753
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 2: it's viscous, it's sticky. And if you don't already have

754
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 2: like the smell memory in your nostrils, well, then if

755
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 2: you're of a certain age, then perhaps you remember a

756
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 2: key scene in nineteen eighty nine's Christmas Vacation starring Chevy Chase.

757
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 2: There's a scene where he has just cut down a

758
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 2: Christmas tree, and now it's the evening. He's laying in

759
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 2: bed next to his wife played by Beverly D'Angelo, and

760
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 2: Chevy Chase is like messing around with them with a

761
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 2: magazine he's trying and then he's trying to turn off

762
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,240
Speaker 2: the light and his fingers are sticking to everything because

763
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 2: it's they're covered with tree resin.

764
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 3: This is a great scene because it's not the point

765
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 3: of the scene. He's just happening in the background that

766
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,879
Speaker 3: every time he touches a magazine page it tears off

767
00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 3: on his fingers.

768
00:42:58,840 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

769
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 3: I'm myself have vivid memories which may or may not

770
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 3: be accurate to reality, of being a kid and climbing

771
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 3: on pine trees in uh, I guess on around the

772
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:15,760
Speaker 3: playground at my school and getting sap or resin whatever

773
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 3: it is from the tree stuck to my hands, into

774
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 3: my arms. Actually, I remember it going up my wrists

775
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 3: and stuff, and again may or may not be accurate,

776
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 3: but what I remember is that it was really really

777
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 3: difficult to wash off, Like you'd rub it with water

778
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:31,479
Speaker 3: and soap and it would just stay on there.

779
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's just very sticky stuff where, Yeah, if

780
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 2: you're horsing around in the woods at all, you're going

781
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 2: to encounter it at some point and you may wonder

782
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 2: like if will this ever come off? And you know,

783
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 2: eventually it does anyway. Yeah, then, as far as Christmas

784
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 2: Vacation goes a lot of broad comedy in that movie.

785
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: But that's kind of like one of the nice scenes

786
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 2: of more subtle comedy that I always liked, though I

787
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 2: guess it gets a little broad towards the end of that.

788
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 2: That's the sequence swimming, knocking over the lamp and so forth,

789
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 2: and his hand gets stuck to her hair.

790
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I just remember them,

791
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 3: Am I remembering this right? Like he touches the magazine

792
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 3: pages and they just tear off on his fingers.

793
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 2: Yeah.

794
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:07,240
Speaker 3: Okay.

795
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 2: Now, speaking of movies from the eighties and nineties, if

796
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 2: you've ever seen a little film titleed Jurassic Park from

797
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three, then you know the basics of what

798
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about next. Insects and other organic

799
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 2: bits winding up stuck in the tree resin and eventually

800
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 2: becoming amber. A whole host of insects were trapped in

801
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 2: this way and later discovered by humans, includes flies, lice, beetles, ants, butterflies,

802
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 2: and moths. Amber has also been found to contain spiders, webbing, frogs, crustaceans, hair, feathers,

803
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 2: all sorts of stuff.

804
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 3: It's nature's museum display case.

805
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just I mean, come and get back to

806
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 2: what happens. Imagine a scenario where a tree is injured

807
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 2: one way or another by another organism, by something falling

808
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 2: into it, et cetera. And things on the trees, things

809
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,439
Speaker 2: come into contact with the trees, and then they get

810
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 2: caught in it. They may overflow them and then ultimately

811
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 2: preserve them. Now, it is of note on the whole

812
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 2: Jurassic Park idea. The idea of DNA extraction from a

813
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 2: mosquito in amber has seen in Jurassic Park. This seems

814
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 2: to remain unrealized, despite some starts and stops and actual

815
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 2: scientific attempts to do just this. Contamination by modern DNA

816
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 2: seems to have played a role in some of the

817
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 2: false positives that have popped up. Examples, you know, where

818
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,240
Speaker 2: scientists have come forward with the study and said, we've

819
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 2: done it. We've been able to successfully retrieve DNA in

820
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 2: one form or another from the contents of this amber.

821
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 2: And I believe in those cases it tends to be

822
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 2: a situation where you actually have modern DNA that has

823
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 2: contaminated the results.

824
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 3: I sort of hesitate to say this because I didn't

825
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 3: double check before we recorded. But I think there would

826
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 3: be a real problem trying to extract DNA from like

827
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 3: dyne era insects and amber like they do in Jurassic Park,

828
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 3: just because the DNA molecule degrades too much over time

829
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 3: for it to last that long. But maybe you could

830
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,439
Speaker 3: feasibly get DNA from an insect in amber from more

831
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 3: recent times.

832
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, apparently there's still scientific debate about how long DNA

833
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 2: can survive in different settings, but you know, I guess

834
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 2: it's a never say never situation. Some scientists continue to

835
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 2: pursue this angle for potential ancient DNA retrieval, and of

836
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 2: course ancient covers a lot of ground. In twenty twenty,

837
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 2: scientists actually succeeded in pulling insect DNA from amber, though

838
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 2: the amber in question was from twenty fourteen common era

839
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen to be clear. So it's you know, it's

840
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 2: not not a not a not a home run, not

841
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 2: a not a touchdown, or what have you, but you

842
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 2: know it's something to go on now. As a as

843
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 2: a tangent, I was looking around about ancient DNA retrieval

844
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 2: and I got kind of interested in a few different

845
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 2: a different different angles on this and a twenty twenty

846
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 2: two paper that the title caught my attention. It was

847
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 2: from the journal Molecular Biology and Evolution titled Ancient Human

848
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: Genomes and Environmental DNA and the sement attaching two thousand

849
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 2: year old headlice knits. And this paper indeed explored to

850
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 2: what extent quote host DNA is protected by the cement

851
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,879
Speaker 2: that glues headlice knits to the hair of ancient Argentinian

852
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 2: mummies fifteen hundred to two thousand years old.

853
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 3: Wow, this is my kind of study. What do they find?

854
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 2: Well, the findings suggest that ectoparasitic lyce sheaths may prove

855
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:42,359
Speaker 2: to be a reasonable tool in ancient DNA retrieval. So

856
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 2: stickiness strikes again here, Like there's this idea that you know,

857
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 2: as we're trying to again, you know, ongoing debate about

858
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 2: to what extent DNA survives and where it can survive

859
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,320
Speaker 2: and what conditions, this study indicates that, yeah, the place

860
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 2: to look might be these knits, these little places where

861
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 2: lice have used their glue to, you know, to hold

862
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 2: eggs in place. Beautiful though, of course, one can't help

863
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 2: but go in a sci fi direction. With all of this,

864
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 2: and imagine half lice, half human mummy hybrids shambling out

865
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 2: of the cloning tanks. You know where it's like, we

866
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 2: did it, we clone the mummies. Oh, we've forgot about

867
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 2: all that lice DNA.

868
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 3: I am brundle lice.

869
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. At any rate, Amber has managed to preserve insect activity.

870
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 2: You know, we have examples of mating, examples of egg laying, parasitism,

871
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 2: swarming behavior, just a few examples of the things where

872
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 2: we can look and say, Okay, not only do we

873
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 2: see a particular species, not only do we see this

874
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 2: snapshot in time of what the organism look like. Sometimes

875
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 2: we can make out behavior. You know, we can also

876
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 2: sometimes make out key details about individual structures. I believe

877
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 2: some of this has come up on the show before.

878
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: You know, what did this particular type of insects head

879
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 2: look like? What did its particular you know, feeding apparatus

880
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 2: look like? Millions of years ago? Structural colors another thing

881
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 2: that is sometimes preserved and can be analyzed. And you know,

882
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 2: we're talking about specimens from as long ago as like

883
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 2: two hundred and thirty million years.

884
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 3: Okay, So whether or not Amber can successfully preserve the

885
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 3: DNA molecule intact enough over time, it can certainly preserve

886
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 3: macroscopic objects, structures, and almost like scenes or dioramas in

887
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 3: some case.

888
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, so something that is physically sticky ends up preserving

889
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 2: creating a kind of like sticky physical memory for humans

890
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:42,240
Speaker 2: to contemplate in the far future.

891
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 3: Interesting.

892
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 2: Now, speaking of prehistoric stickiness, speaking of the ancients and sap,

893
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 2: I thought we might turn to the oldest manufactured glue

894
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 2: that we know of in human history, and that's birch

895
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 2: bark tar. This is created by heating birch bark via.

896
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 2: I think there are four different methods that are that

897
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 2: are generally recognized. I was reading about this in a

898
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen paper by Nikas at All published in the

899
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 2: journal Anthropology. According to these authors, there's condensation method, there's

900
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,959
Speaker 2: ash mound method, there's pit and vessel method, and there's

901
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 2: raised structure method, which involves earth and mound containing a

902
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 2: vessel and screen. Those are in order of complexity as well,

903
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 2: and the more complex the greater the yield. So my

904
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 2: understanding based on this is like, yeah, if using the

905
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 2: condensation method, you would have to do so much more

906
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 2: of it to get the same amount of birch bark

907
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 2: tar that you would get using the raised structure method.

908
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 2: So birch bark tar use dates back to the Paleolithic period.

909
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 2: Our ancestors used it to have to tools to decorate objects.

910
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 2: But this wasn't only a technology of Homo sapiens. This

911
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,879
Speaker 2: really I found this really fascinating. Archaeological evidence shows that Neanderthals,

912
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 2: are extinct evolutionary cousins also used it and seem to

913
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 2: have produced it, using it on at least some of

914
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 2: their tools. I don't think all of them, but we

915
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 2: have found Neanderthal artifacts where they used this tar to

916
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 2: construct their tools, and they use some of the more

917
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 2: complex methods of driving the birch bark.

918
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,760
Speaker 3: Tar ah so like higher up the list of four.

919
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so they weren't just using the most primitive

920
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 2: version of it, which which I think is also pretty

921
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 2: you know, potentially insightful about who the Neanderthals were and

922
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 2: what they were up to. And I think in general,

923
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:41,439
Speaker 2: whether you're talking about prehistoric humans or or Neanderthals, it's

924
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 2: it's easy for a lot of us, you know, certainly

925
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 2: without deeper knowledge of actual tool construction, you know, and

926
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 2: methods of tool construction specifically in prehistoric times. To assume

927
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 2: that you know, everything was lashed together, right, everything kind

928
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 2: of looked like there's kind of an image of a

929
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 2: stone age tool that may enter your mind and it

930
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 2: involves like a you know, something wedged in wood, maybe

931
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 2: strapped with some hide in wood, and you don't think

932
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 2: about how important adhesive technology was and has never stopped being.

933
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 3: We talked about this in our Invention episode on chewing Gum.

934
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:20,760
Speaker 3: I believe, but the Iceman Oatzy, the fourth millennium BCE

935
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 3: Stone Age mummy who was preserved in a glacier in

936
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 3: the Italian Alps, was discovered in the early nineteen nineties.

937
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 3: Oatzy so many fascinating things about Otzy, but one of

938
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 3: which was he carried with him this copper axe. And

939
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 3: the copper axe, the blade of the axe was secured

940
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 3: to the handle with multiple means. It did have some

941
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 3: wrapping of leather straps like you were talking about, but

942
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 3: it also was glued in place using birch bark tar

943
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 3: adhesives made from the birch tree. Also in that episode,

944
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 3: we talked about a paper called chewing Tar in the

945
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 3: Early Holocene that was about indications that lumps of birch

946
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 3: bark tar had been chewed, and the idea is like, okay,

947
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 3: was this being used as like chewing gum in the

948
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 3: ancient world, or maybe maybe was chewing on it a

949
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 3: way of treating it so that it could be used

950
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 3: in the creation of tools.

951
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember this discussion now, Yeah, it's it's fascinating again.

952
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,360
Speaker 2: It's so easy to dismiss the importance of adhesives, the

953
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,880
Speaker 2: importance of glues and sticky things, you know, but I

954
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 2: mean it makes sense too, because again, humans would have

955
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 2: gone out into the world, they got sticky, they got

956
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 2: sticky things on them, and everything that they encountered, they

957
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 2: you know, inevitably asked the question can I use this?

958
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 2: Is this of use to me? How can I combine

959
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:51,880
Speaker 2: this with other things to create useful things? And of

960
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 2: course sticky is going to play an important role there,

961
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 2: and you know, factors into construction. Obviously we already talked

962
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 2: a bit of We talked about mud bricks in previous episodes.

963
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 2: We talked about sticky rice mortar earlier in this series.

964
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 2: But there are also plenty of other methods of construction

965
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 2: out there, Like one that I was reading about is

966
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:12,720
Speaker 2: wattle and daub which you know, sounds like an interesting

967
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 2: law firm or something. But now this is where you

968
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 2: have woven flexible branches called wattle, and they're essentially daubed

969
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 2: up with a sticky combination of such materials as mud

970
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:26,240
Speaker 2: and clay and possibly dun you know, not all that different,

971
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 2: I guess in some respects than you know, compared to

972
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 2: mud bricks. But but again another construction method, another recipe

973
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 2: for building something that involves using something that is sticky.

974
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:41,280
Speaker 2: And of course, if you get back into the problem

975
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 2: of the word sticky and just how vague it is,

976
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 2: I mean basically that can bring in any kind of

977
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 2: like plaster scenario, mortar scenario, brick making scenario, and more.

978
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 2: Now I have to say I really wanted to end

979
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 2: it on a monster here. I was like, there's got

980
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 2: to be a nice sticky monster out there, and perhaps

981
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:01,839
Speaker 2: there is, and I just didn't have time to find it.

982
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 2: I got really excited when I discovered a Japanese yokai

983
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 2: known as Beto Beto Son, which is sometimes translated as

984
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 2: mister Sticky, though this ultimately doesn't really hold up because

985
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 2: apparently the more accurate translation is mister footsteps. This is

986
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 2: the connection I think only makes sense within the Japanese language.

987
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 2: But basically, this is a yokai that follows people around

988
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 2: at night on dark streets and you hear his footfall,

989
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 2: so it's like they you know. The whole idea is

990
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 2: just the sound of being followed in the dark, or

991
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 2: the potential of being followed in the dark. It doesn't

992
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 2: actually have anything to do with like a super sticky

993
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,240
Speaker 2: ghost creature, much to my dismay.

994
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 3: Bummer, I wish it was a monster with like sticky hands,

995
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 3: like the sticky hand toy.

996
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so I don't know if anyone out there

997
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 2: can think of any sticky monsters, especially as we get

998
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:57,959
Speaker 2: into our Halloween festivities here. Let us know, I guess

999
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,439
Speaker 2: you could. You could have talked about the z morph

1000
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 2: to some extent. It didn't like sticking people to walls

1001
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:03,760
Speaker 2: and in walls.

1002
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, it's secreted a stick. You never really see

1003
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 3: it secreting that stuff, do you You see the you

1004
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:15,799
Speaker 3: see the caustic blood. I wonder do you think it's

1005
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 3: only the queen that secretes all of that that sticky

1006
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 3: material that cocoons the people.

1007
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 2: I don't know if it has So I know this varies.

1008
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:27,839
Speaker 2: There's no like hard cannon on this, but I guess

1009
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 2: you have like the warrior xenomorphs, you have the queen zenomrph.

1010
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 2: Do you have like some sort of like construction drone

1011
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 2: type xenomorphor would that be done by the warriors? Like

1012
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 2: who's building that elaborate nest? Like she's busy creating eggs?

1013
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 2: Right that if we're going to compare it to you know,

1014
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:47,880
Speaker 2: like say ant and termite models, you know, her role

1015
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,360
Speaker 2: is very specific within the hive, and you must have

1016
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:56,279
Speaker 2: some other classification of the species that's busy building these

1017
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:59,879
Speaker 2: things and secreting stuff and sticking people in walls after

1018
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 2: you know they've after an egg has been positioned in

1019
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 2: the proximity.

1020
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 3: That's right. Ripley famously asks an alien, so who's laying

1021
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 3: the eggs? But I have a secondary question, so who's

1022
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 3: secreting the gunk?

1023
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, there we go. We knowed that's what we need

1024
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 2: for the next alien film. Let's really dive down into

1025
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:20,479
Speaker 2: who's secreting here.

1026
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 3: It must be something we haven't seen yet.

1027
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 2: A whole movie about the most boring member of the

1028
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 2: but scientifically interesting member of the xenomorp five I'm in

1029
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 2: all right, we're gonna go ahead and close it up there,

1030
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:38,880
Speaker 2: but hey, we'd love to hear from everyone out there.

1031
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on stickiness? Can you think of

1032
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 2: the sticky monster in general? Oh, and sticky memories? You know,

1033
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 2: this is something we can all relate to, So I'm

1034
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 2: hoping we'll hear from a lot of folks on that. Also,

1035
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 2: Like I just said, we're getting into the Halloween season here,

1036
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 2: and we're gonna quickly be you know, putting together a

1037
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 2: loose outline of what we're going to be covering. But

1038
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 2: now's a great time if you have something particular in mind,

1039
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 2: or if you want to remind us of something we

1040
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:07,919
Speaker 2: said we'd cover in the past but didn't, then yeah,

1041
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 2: write in. We'd love to hear from you. A reminder

1042
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 2: that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a science podcast

1043
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 2: with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, listener mail on Monday,

1044
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 2: short form artifact or monster Fact on Wednesday, and on Friday,

1045
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 2: we set aside most serious concerns to just talk about

1046
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 2: a weird movie on Weird House Cinema.

1047
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 3: Huge thanks to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. If

1048
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 3: you would like to get in touch with us with

1049
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 3: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a

1050
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 3: topic for the future, or just to say hi. You

1051
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 3: can email us at contact stuff to Blow your Mind

1052
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 3: dot com.

1053
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:48,960
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1054
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:51,840
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1055
00:58:52,000 --> 00:59:06,000
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