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Speaker 1: Excellent, excellent, Well, what a pleasure it is to welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Armstrong and Getty show. Ilia Shapiro, Director of

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Speaker 1: Constitutional Studies in Manhattan Institute, previously the executive direct Director

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Speaker 1: and Senior lecture at the Georgetown Center for the Constitution,

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Speaker 1: which we will be discussing with. Mr Shapiro. H sir, welcome.

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Speaker 1: How are you. I'm doing all right, doing alright. Week

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Speaker 1: two of my new job at the Manhattan Institute. Still

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Speaker 1: working from my home in Virginia, not moving to New York.

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Speaker 1: But it's uh, interesting times with the Supreme Court and

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Speaker 1: awful lot of things on indeed. Yeah, and we're anxious

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Speaker 1: to talk to you about the recent Supreme Court decisions.

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Speaker 1: But before we get to that, uh, we have discussed

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Speaker 1: your situation, your experience with Georgetown fair amount. Read your

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Speaker 1: absolutely terrific letter of resignation. Um, just on that topic,

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Speaker 1: after you're admittedly poorly worded tweets about Joe Biden limiting

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Speaker 1: his Supreme Court selection to a black woman and how

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Speaker 1: that didn't really serve the country. Uh, Georgetown was mad

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Speaker 1: at you. Had a month long investigation and then when

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Speaker 1: when you left, the Dean said that we're more than

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Speaker 1: we're we're our priorities protecting free speech and expression, and

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Speaker 1: Dr Shapiro was more than welcome to practice that. Well,

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Speaker 1: what's your response to that statement? I'm sorry, can you

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Speaker 1: repeat the question. Well, it was just that the dean

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Speaker 1: of Georgetown Law said, we're not limiting Mr Shapiro's right

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Speaker 1: to free and korey and free speech at all. He's

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Speaker 1: welcome to work here. But you decided to leave. Why? Well,

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Speaker 1: they they they they they are, as I explained in

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Speaker 1: my resignation letter and which I summarized in my law

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Speaker 1: spree journel out. Then when I when I realized I

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Speaker 1: needed to resign, they were setting me up for a fall.

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Speaker 1: They were saying that any time I said something where

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Speaker 1: somebody complained that they were offended, um, then that would

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Speaker 1: constitute a hostile educational environment. And as I gave a

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Speaker 1: very very realistic hypothetical, that would happen anytime, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: say this fall when it's or takes up the Harvard

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Speaker 1: Affirmative Action case, and I uh make the analysis that

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Speaker 1: the Fourteenth Amendments prohibits discriminating based on people are based

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Speaker 1: on race in admission, that would people would complain and

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Speaker 1: they'll be alliterating campaign and away we go and there's

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Speaker 1: that that sort of damocles hanging over me. So in effect,

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Speaker 1: the law school we sended it's uh otherwise good on

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Speaker 1: paper free speech and expression policy. Is that sort of

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Speaker 1: damocles hanging over the head of a lot of people

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Speaker 1: who would like to speak up at universities around the country,

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Speaker 1: do you think? I think so absolutely. Uh. There's been

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Speaker 1: made clear that if that if you diverge from the

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Speaker 1: accepted orthodoxy, then then you're going to get in trouble.

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Speaker 1: And not just conservatives, a Lobertarians, kind of old school

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Speaker 1: liberals are are are feeling this and occasionally that that

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Speaker 1: comes dout. I think there's a high profile resignation last

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Speaker 1: week by a U c l a anthropology professor who's

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Speaker 1: otherwise a liberal democratic, said that it was sustainable being

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Speaker 1: in academia these ways these days, that it's unfortunate, but

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Speaker 1: it's down far between the institution that will stand up

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Speaker 1: for actual intellectual inquiry and the pursuit of truth, the

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Speaker 1: basic educational mission, right. I think it's it's so dangerous,

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Speaker 1: and I'm glad you pointed out it's not a conservative

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Speaker 1: liberal thing or anything like that, but the the American

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Speaker 1: university system is probably the greatest engine of the growth

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Speaker 1: of knowledge and science and saving lives and advancing humanity

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Speaker 1: that's ever existed on Earth. And to you know, our

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Speaker 1: opinion is it's rotting and and it's far too important

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Speaker 1: to be left to academics. I think people need to

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Speaker 1: understand how dangerous this is. I think that's right. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, academia is an important institution of American society. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's eterminal. I don't think I'm very pessimistic.

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Speaker 1: American society with large I see lot of good things.

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Speaker 1: I'm optimistic. But academia, I think it's gone past the

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Speaker 1: point of nowhere turn. And to be clear, this is

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Speaker 1: not kind of the same age old complaint that conservatives

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Speaker 1: have about universities being too liberals going back decades. I

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Speaker 1: think the ratio of you know, the political spectrum students, faculty, liberals, conservative, moderate,

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Speaker 1: whatever at universities is probably no different now than it

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Speaker 1: was when I was in college twenty five years ago,

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Speaker 1: or law school twenty years ago. The problem is the

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Speaker 1: administrators and the growth and the bureaucratic bloat has become

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Speaker 1: such the administrator's pow tow and play case the radical

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Speaker 1: illiberal elements such that it shuts down the genuine discourse

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Speaker 1: and the search for truth and being able to consider

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Speaker 1: ideas that you might not agree with. So the the

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Speaker 1: Overton window, the acceptable range of policy views has shifted

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Speaker 1: radically to the less and narrow that it's it's made

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Speaker 1: it untenable for a lot of faculty and a lot

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Speaker 1: of students. Yeah, that's an excellent point. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: argument goes back at least as far as William F.

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Speaker 1: Buckley when he wrote God and Man at Yale in

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Speaker 1: the fifties, I think, and complaining about the university system then,

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Speaker 1: and it's kind of come a long way from there.

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Speaker 1: We're talking to Elias Shapiro of the Manhattan Institute, and

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Speaker 1: before we get to specific Supreme Court cases, speaking of

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Speaker 1: institutions that are a punching bag these days, what do

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Speaker 1: you make of the the image of the court in

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Speaker 1: popular politics? Uh? Right now, Um, you know, the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court has long been part of political discourse, and judicial

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Speaker 1: confirmations have long had politics attached them. George Washington had

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Speaker 1: a Supreme Court nominee rejected for for the co reasons

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Speaker 1: by the Senate politics has played a role in different

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Speaker 1: ways over our history. What's different now is that you

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Speaker 1: have divergent interpretive theories that map onto parties in preference

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Speaker 1: at a time when the parties are more ideologically sorted

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Speaker 1: and polarized, and they've been at least the Civil War,

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Speaker 1: if not, if not ever. Uh, And so you have

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Speaker 1: this uh you know, uh rattening up to twelve every

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Speaker 1: time there's a vacancy in one of these precious speaks.

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Speaker 1: And the only way to fix it isn't by kind

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Speaker 1: of these reforms structural or otherwise, or how you conduct hearings,

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Speaker 1: but make the court less important, not have it decides

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Speaker 1: half a dozen are the most important political issues in

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Speaker 1: American life. Every every journey returned decision making to the States,

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Speaker 1: and to Congress for that matter, rather than to the

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Speaker 1: executive branch. That that gets to UM. But you know

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Speaker 1: that's not an easy fix. That's not an overnight fix.

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Speaker 1: And I took us decades to get to where we

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Speaker 1: are now. I I gotta go back to something you

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Speaker 1: said just a few seconds ago, and I don't know

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Speaker 1: exactly how you worded it, but as politically as divided

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Speaker 1: as since the Civil War, if not more. I think

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Speaker 1: the parties are as uh in terms of they're they're

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Speaker 1: sordid ideologically, that is, you don't have conservative Democrats, you

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Speaker 1: don't have liberal Republicans uh in in in Congress, uh

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Speaker 1: and polarized. The kind of the peach or the media

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Speaker 1: of both parties are more separate, and I think I

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Speaker 1: think at least the Civil War interesting wow. Interesting, And

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Speaker 1: also that the way you view the Constitution has been

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Speaker 1: sorted in a similar way or attached to those those tribes. Interesting.

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Speaker 1: Billia Shapiro is with us. Mr Shapiro's director of Constitutional

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Speaker 1: Studies at the Manhattan Institute. Before that, he's vice president

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Speaker 1: of the Cato Institute. Mr Shapiro, thanks for sticking around.

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Speaker 1: We appreciate it very much. Several giant decisions in this

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Speaker 1: latest Supreme Court session that have gotten a lot of attention,

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Speaker 1: to say the least. But before we get into the

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Speaker 1: specific cases, the President in recent weeks since the decisions

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Speaker 1: came down, has talked about how radical this court is

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Speaker 1: and how out of step with the mainstream of America, etcetera, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: Most of us who are a little older have lived

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Speaker 1: with a left leaning Supreme Court. Our entire lives. Now

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Speaker 1: we have one that is rightly how we're Does it

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Speaker 1: fit in on the radical out of steps scale in

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Speaker 1: your opinion? Well, that that's all just political posturing, and

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of this is driven by media

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Speaker 1: and this information about what will be wade actually stands

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Speaker 1: for what overturning it actually means. Um. I think the

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Speaker 1: plurality of Americans, Uh, most Americans rejects both the kind

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Speaker 1: of uh no abortion at all from from conception uh,

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Speaker 1: and they also reject you know, no restrictions at all

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Speaker 1: through nine months. Um. In Europe, most countries have restrictions

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Speaker 1: passed somewhere like ten or fourteen weeks, and so the

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Speaker 1: laws issue in Mississippi is actually more liberal than the

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Speaker 1: law and in France for example. Now now states are

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Speaker 1: becoming more restrictive after this decision. But um, I think

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Speaker 1: there's just a lot of political posturing and demogogory over

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Speaker 1: over these issues. At the end of the day, uh,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to political opinion, and we have a

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Speaker 1: midterm election coming coming this fall, I don't think, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know what what we've been uh treated to the

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Speaker 1: last few weeks in terms of the political discourse is

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Speaker 1: really going to matter surrounding core people are going to

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Speaker 1: vote their their pocketbook and and uh these other crime

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Speaker 1: and whatever other concerns. Um, you know the Court, I

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Speaker 1: think we'll we'll muddle through. It's still respected much more

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Speaker 1: than Congress or the President. What other case or cases

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Speaker 1: do you think we're particularly important to our impactful Well,

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Speaker 1: there were there were about happen dozen this term that

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Speaker 1: make it such a blockbuster term. I don't wanna understate

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Speaker 1: the importance or significance of this term. Involving the right

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Speaker 1: to bear arms is tech an amendment case of New York,

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Speaker 1: A couple of religion cases, school choice, or prayer by

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Speaker 1: a by a coach after a football game. But you know,

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Speaker 1: the one that I think will have the longest lasting

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Speaker 1: effect on jurisprudence, the one that will have the biggest

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Speaker 1: impact on governance is an administrative law case involving e

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Speaker 1: p A regulation of in house or climate change causing emissions,

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Speaker 1: West Virginia versus e p A. There, the Court said

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Speaker 1: that the e p A or any federal agency can't

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Speaker 1: just take upon itself huge regulatory authority unless Congress has

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Speaker 1: specified that. The Court talked about what it's called the

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Speaker 1: major questions doctrine. That is, if there's some law or

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Speaker 1: regulation that's worth a significant amount of economic impact or

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Speaker 1: decidal impact, the Court is not going to allow that

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Speaker 1: agency be at the e p A or the Securities

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Speaker 1: and Change Commission, the Labor Department, what have you. This

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Speaker 1: goes across those far beyond climate change. It will not

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Speaker 1: allow the agency to just take upon itself that massive power.

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Speaker 1: Congress has to be the one to take the political

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Speaker 1: hits and make that politically potentially controversial decision to regulate,

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Speaker 1: to give the agency that authority. I think we're going

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Speaker 1: to see that impact across a range of policy issues.

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Speaker 1: So it drives me nuts. I mean, you touch this

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Speaker 1: on this already the way the media was talking about

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Speaker 1: the abortion decision, and also the media the way they

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Speaker 1: talked about this ep A decision, as if the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: What the Supreme Court announced was they don't care about

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Speaker 1: climate change as opposed to the role of agencies and

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Speaker 1: making law versus versus Congress. I mean, is that is that? Well?

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Speaker 1: Am I right about? That? Is to mean it just

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Speaker 1: so far off track of understanding what the Supreme Court does. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but the Court did not pronounce on what environmental regulations

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Speaker 1: should be in place. It didn't pronounce on which abortion

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Speaker 1: regulations should be in place. It didn't even pronounce on

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Speaker 1: on which UH firearm regulations should be in place, other

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Speaker 1: than that you can't completely ban the carrying a firearms

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Speaker 1: that an amendment has the right to keep and bear arms.

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Speaker 1: So I think there is a lot of UH misreporting.

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Speaker 1: A lot of reporters, even without being in good in

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Speaker 1: bad faith, are in kind of progressive bubbles. And so

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Speaker 1: there's this narrative that developed that UH frankly doesn't doesn't

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Speaker 1: do a disservice to anyone, regardless of what your political

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Speaker 1: views might be, because it it doesn't explain what exactly

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Speaker 1: that issue and what the court rules. So I realized

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Speaker 1: you could probably write a book on this topic. But

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Speaker 1: we talk a lot about whether the times we're living

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Speaker 1: in these days, UM are just a pendulum swinging outward

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Speaker 1: in the way that like the late sixties, cities were burning, assassinations,

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Speaker 1: you know, bombings, domestic bombings were going on, but things

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Speaker 1: calmed down and settled down, and then you know, the

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Speaker 1: next couple of decades were pretty prosperous and reasonably stable.

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Speaker 1: Are we just going through a Rocky Patch or do

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Speaker 1: you think you know the silo wing of information and

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Speaker 1: social media center. Are we heading down a new road? Well?

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Speaker 1: Are we in these historical cycles that indeed, people are

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Speaker 1: drawing total out to the late sixties and the former

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Speaker 1: Japanese prime minister was just assassinate or are we going

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Speaker 1: to have more political violence? People are drawing pal out

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Speaker 1: to the last pandemic that the Spanish flew a hundred

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Speaker 1: years ago. Uh, after which we had the Rowing twenties.

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Speaker 1: People forgot about all the turmoil from the pandemic and

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Speaker 1: World War One, and and we had a great economic

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Speaker 1: boom and social developments in various ways. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's uh, it's it's as as Yogi Barris said, it's

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Speaker 1: hard to make predictions, especially about the future. Uh. You know,

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Speaker 1: there are there are good things. There are historical comparisons.

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Speaker 1: Even though inflation is high, it seems like economic growth

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Speaker 1: isn't too too bad these days. Unemployment it seems to

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Speaker 1: be fairly low, at least in in in many states. Um.

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Speaker 1: But but you have this political polarization, and you have

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Speaker 1: the wild card of the Internet and social media and

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Speaker 1: digital information flows that seem to uh nationalize every every

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Speaker 1: single issue and instantaneously uh convey uh information through fault

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Speaker 1: or opinions, Uh immediately. So it's we we're certainly living

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Speaker 1: in interesting times, and I don't have a very good

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Speaker 1: crystal ball. Um. You know, I'm optimistic about many things.

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Speaker 1: I have two little kids, that's two more on the way,

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Speaker 1: and trying to you know, build a good family life

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Speaker 1: for myself. And I think the more that people focus

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Speaker 1: on themselves and their families rather than you know, getting

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Speaker 1: getting upset about these uh abstract issues that don't directly

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Speaker 1: affect them, I think the better will will all be

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Speaker 1: as a society. I couldn't agree with that more. Wow. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's an absolutely terrific topic or a statement to end

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Speaker 1: on this kind of a high brow joke for a

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Speaker 1: couple of half wits, But I think he might enjoy it.

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Speaker 1: I read this the other day. Somebody said, yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna have the Roaring twenties again, only this time where

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Speaker 1: Germany boy. Ilia Shapiro, director of Constitutional Studies that Manhattan Institute,

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Speaker 1: just enjoyed the heck out of the conversation. I hope

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Speaker 1: we can do it again sometime. Absolutely absolutely all right,

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Speaker 1: thanks a million, So I was really intrigued, obviously, because

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Speaker 1: I followed up on it on his his comment that

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Speaker 1: we might be even more polarized than we were at

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Speaker 1: the time of the Civil War. And when people say

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing, I mean, it seems, you know,

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Speaker 1: it seems pretty extraordinary because we went to war and uh,

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Speaker 1: six hundred thousand people died in etcetera, etcetera. But in

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Speaker 1: terms of the politics of it, he's probably right, since

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Speaker 1: you since you you can't have anybody even close to

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Speaker 1: moderate really and either party anymore, because you'll get primaried

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Speaker 1: by your own party and loose. So we'll probably have

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Speaker 1: less common ground than maybe we've ever had in our

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Speaker 1: nation's history among the two parties. You know, I happen

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Speaker 1: to be doing yet more reading about the Civil War because,

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Speaker 1: as John Lady pointed out, all dads are apparently studying

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Speaker 1: for some future test on World War two, or I'd

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Speaker 1: add the Civil War. But yeah, there were lots and

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Speaker 1: lots of moderates at the time. There are lots of

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Speaker 1: people saying, no, you can't succeed, we can't divide the Union,

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Speaker 1: we gotta work out of compromise, les Kansas Nebraska Act.

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Speaker 1: There are all sorts of moderates running around. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: not making an argument that we're headed towards the civil

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Speaker 1: war because I think there's all kinds of reasons that's

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Speaker 1: relatively silly, and if it happened, it would be a

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Speaker 1: long time from now. But in terms of fewer people

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Speaker 1: with common ground, like if you had them all on

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Speaker 1: a spectrum, you know, people towards the middle, we might

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Speaker 1: have lesson we've ever had, HM troubling. These are the

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Speaker 1: spicy times. These are the spicy times. I don't wonder

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Speaker 1: if that changes any The fundraising thing in the primary

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Speaker 1: system is what would have to change to change that,

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if that's in the works or not. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: clicking omics lurks like a poisonous gas. I mean, because

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Speaker 1: that that's so infects people's thoughts. Just the need to

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Speaker 1: make everybody angry all the time for our media to

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Speaker 1: make any money, including our social media, I just I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know. If we got what it takes,

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Speaker 1: you know, Bill Clinton, then there's nothing wrong with America

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Speaker 1: that can't be fixed by what is right with America. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want to remeasure all that can we please? What

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Speaker 1: Mr shapperrol there said there towards the end, though, if

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Speaker 1: you focus on your family and raising your kids and

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Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff, and if more people did that,

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Speaker 1: we'd be better off. As clearly true, It's like you

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Speaker 1: and your neighbor and your cul de sac, who maybe

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Speaker 1: don't agree on a single political issue, could hang out

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Speaker 1: the entire weekend if it's over a little league baseball

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Speaker 1: and barbecues, and the guy down the road who doesn't

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Speaker 1: always long enough or whatever first step have two or

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Speaker 1: more children. I'm talking to you, folks. Let's get started.

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Speaker 1: If you miss an hour of the show, you can

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Speaker 1: grab it in podcast form. Armstrong and Getty on demand

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Speaker 1: are Strong and Getty