1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, alright, b Are, and thanks for joining me today. 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: I'm super excited to dig into this conversation. Hey, it's 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: great to be here Mark. So, um boy, you have 4 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: written a new book and uh, it's a very timely 5 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: book for the situation that the world is in right now, 6 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: going through an energy crisis. Uh. Massive hurricane that just 7 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 1: crushed uh. Um Florida last or two weeks ago, there 8 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: was a massive earthquake that hit Mexico City. I happened 9 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: to be down there on the thirty fifth floor swinging 10 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: back and forth. Uh. And it's all because of climate 11 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: change apparently. Um. Now you've written a new book and 12 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: the title is false Alarm, How climate change Panics is 13 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: costing US trillions, hurts the poor, and fails to fix 14 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: the planet. So um, the title of the book false Alarm, 15 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: is like, oh, all this climate alarmism you're stating is 16 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: a false alarm. Um. And then you kind of with 17 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: the subtitle is like how the Panics cost us a 18 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: lot of money, it hurts the poor. Where I get 19 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: those things? So you're stating that this climate alarmism is 20 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: a false alarm. So I'm saying that we're overly worried 21 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: about climate change. Yes, it's a real problem, it's something 22 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: that we should fix. But the way that almost everyone 23 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: now thinks it's the end of the world or near 24 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: the end of the world. So a new survey of 25 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: O c D country, so the rich world, essentially showed 26 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: that six of all people in the O c D 27 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: now believes that climate change will very likely or likely 28 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: lead to the end of mankind. And that's just simply bonkers. 29 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: That's not what the Huan Climate handle is telling us. 30 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: They're telling us this is a problem. Without global warming, 31 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: we'd be better off, but it's not like we're headed 32 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: for extinction or anything. And because people are overworried, it 33 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: both makes you know, most kids are scared witless about 34 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: climate change. Of course that's terrible in so many different 35 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: ways if it's if they're vastly over worried, but also 36 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: means that all the adults just spend money in a 37 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: wrong places. You know, if you're worried, you're just gonna 38 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: throw out all your money on on this one problem. 39 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: And that's not the way either to fix cimate change 40 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: or all the other problems in the world. That's an 41 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: alarming number. Six people are worried about that um was 42 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: there any any data in that city that shows like 43 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: over what time frame? Because it seems like most of 44 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 1: like the I p c C data that comes out, 45 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: it's like in the next hundred years. Like are they 46 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: think this is gonna happen like in their lifetime? I mean, 47 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: that's what Great Throneberg's telling them. That's hard to tell 48 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,119 Speaker 1: given they didn't specify. Do you think you're gonna die 49 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: in the two thousand forties or two thousand fifties? It's 50 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: more and and honestly, you know, also if you look 51 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: at what people say, they'll tell you yes, I actually 52 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: think this is going to lead to the extinction of 53 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: human race. So what are you going to do this summer? 54 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: And they'll go, oh, I'm flying to ma York. You 55 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: know that we have radically different ways that we actually 56 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: live our lives, and then on the other hand, we're 57 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,119 Speaker 1: really worried about this. So I think it's more sort 58 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: of a cultural phenomena that you feel guilty, that you 59 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: feel like this is a terrible thing, and that you 60 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: constantly reinforce it with your friends and everybody else, saying yeah, 61 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: this is going to lead to the extinct human kind. 62 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,839 Speaker 1: It's not the actual thing that people are really worried about. 63 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: You know, I step out tomorrow and I'm gonna be dead. 64 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: But it's more the feeling that this is really the 65 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: numbered top one thing that we should be concerned about. 66 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: And again, that is wrong in so many different ways, 67 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: and it leads us to do wrong policies that make 68 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: world less well off. Like what what kind of policies 69 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:28,519 Speaker 1: are are we seeing that are making the world less 70 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: well off right now? So so one fundamental thing is, uh, 71 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: if you look at what we're doing for climate change, 72 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: a lot of it is essentially just greenwashing. It's feeling 73 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: good about doing something for climate without having much of 74 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: an impact. So one of the most important things that 75 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: people talk about is to subsidize electric cars uh to 76 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: somehow feel like we're doing something about the climate crisis. 77 00:03:55,680 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: But in reality, electric cars they're now little thing. They'll 78 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: cut a little bit of C two and you know, 79 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: if you've ever driven a Tesla, they're fun, you know, 80 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: cars to driver out, but they're just not the thing 81 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: that's going to solve global warming. First of all, they're 82 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: incredibly expensive. They actually emit more air pollution, surprisingly because 83 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: they're more uh they're heavy, and hence they actually UH. 84 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: They emit a lot more particulates for from tires, from UH, 85 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: from UH from roadwear, and from UH from breaking. But 86 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: fundamentally they're an incredibly expensive way, so we subsidize them 87 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: to the tune of five or ten thousand dollars, depending 88 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,359 Speaker 1: on where you are on the planet for very little 89 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: CU two cups. So that's one part, we're doing it 90 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 1: very badly. At the other end, remember what most people, 91 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: so you know, five six billion people on this planet 92 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: live with less than you know, thirty dollars a day. 93 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: They live in pretty awful conditions. Their kids are dying 94 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 1: from easily curable infectious diseases. They don't get enough education, 95 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: they don't get enough food, They have all kinds of 96 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: other problems, and we're saying the most important thing is 97 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: that I switched my sub out with a Tesla instead 98 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: of focusing on getting these kids. I don't know medication. 99 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: So my point here is to twofold to say there 100 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: are many other problems we ought to focus on first, 101 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: and yes, climate change is also the problem. We're smart species. 102 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: We can walk into gum at the same time. But please, 103 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: let's do this effectively. And we're not because we're scared witless. Yeah. Yeah, 104 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: the sense of fear has kind of put us into 105 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: this panic where we're not thinking through it. Clearly. On 106 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: the greenwashing side, um, obviously, we have this whole energy 107 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: situation going on over in Europe, and I've been talking 108 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 1: about on on some of my shows, how in the 109 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 1: United States happening in Europe as well. But in the 110 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: United States, they're like cutting down all these forests, taking 111 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: the trees, shipping them over to Europe, chip and putting 112 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: them into woodchips they can burn them in the fireplace, 113 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: and supposedly that's greenwashing, and supposed that's green cutting down 114 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: the trees that are supposed to be scrubbing the CEO 115 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: two out of the atmosphere and then burning them. So 116 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: then so that that's what you're talking about, the greenwashing. 117 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 1: They're making it seem like they're doing something, but in reality, 118 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: maybe it's even worse off than if they didn't do that. Yeah. 119 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: So the short story is, even if you do it right, 120 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: it's unlikely that you're actually making much of climate impact. 121 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: As you point out, you know, when you burn the wood, 122 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: you're actually emitting more CEO two. Then if you had 123 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: burnt coal. Now the theory is, but you're going to 124 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: reforest those trees and over the next twenty years they'll 125 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: actually soak up all that extra SEO too that you 126 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: just burn. But yeah, that's like eighty two and twenty 127 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: years too late. And also, of course they're not actually 128 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:42,799 Speaker 1: doing that if they were just doing it really well, 129 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: but they're also cutting down essentially old growth forest and 130 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: in Canada and elsewhere. Uh So you know, the fundamental 131 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: point is, no, this is a terrible way to do it. 132 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: And again most people think when you're talking about green 133 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: we think, oh, it's all from solar and wind. Solar 134 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: makes up zero point eight percent of global energy. Wind 135 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: makes up one percent of energy. Most of the renewables 136 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: that we get is not even solar, wind or even hydro. 137 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: It's wood. So you know, it's about eleven of it 138 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: as would both in poor countries where they use it's 139 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: cook and keep warm, but enrich countries it's mostly biofuels. 140 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: We use it to make. Uh. You know in in 141 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: um in Iowa, they make lots and lots of ethanol, 142 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: but most places they just simply grow fast growing uh 143 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: sorts of wood and then we burn them in our incinerators. 144 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: It makes us feel green, But the honest answers you 145 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: point out is it's very little green and it's incredibly subsidized. 146 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: Again back decisions. Yeah, wow, I didn't know about that. Now. Um, 147 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: it seems like we have an emergency because supposedly natural 148 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: disasters are getting worse and worse and worse. So I've 149 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: seen we have this huge storm that at Florida. I 150 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: saw Financial Time said that hurricane hurricane frequencies on the rise. 151 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: New York Times said strong storms are becoming more common 152 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: in Atlantic Washington posted climate change is rapidly fueling the 153 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: super hurricanes. ABC News says how climate change intentifies hurricanes, 154 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: and on and on and on. Um. In California where 155 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: I'm at, we have we've been having big fires and 156 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: supposed that the fires are because of climate change as well. Um, 157 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: they have no they have no problem sensationalizing this to 158 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: climate change. What does the data say about that? So 159 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: it is a very controversial conversation to talk about this 160 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: because it's very easy to make you feel like, oh 161 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: my god, there are more and more crisis, But most 162 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: of this is really just the if you will to 163 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: see Ann effect that we see more and more stuff 164 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: that's really terrible on on on the news. If you 165 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: remember back to you know, from the late nineteen eighties, 166 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: uh you know, there was more and more talk shows 167 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: in the US are more and more news, and everybody 168 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: actually thought crime was getting worse and worse, while the 169 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: statistic was showing crime was getting less and less. Now 170 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: maybe it's turned around the last couple of years, but 171 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: the fundamental point remains, just because you see a lot 172 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: of stuff on TV doesn't actually mean that there is 173 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: more of it in reality. And so if you look 174 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: at the numbers, uh so, lots of people have looked at, 175 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 1: for instance, how many hurricanes actually hit the US. This 176 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: is important because they're likely to be counted even in 177 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: old times. Remember hurricanes out in the middle of the 178 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: Atlantic Ocean that nobody saw. We see them today with satellites, 179 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: but we didn't see them, you know, fifty or dred 180 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: years ago because they didn't happen to be a ship 181 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: there at the time. So landfalling hurricanes is one great 182 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: way of of of sharing this, and they actually show 183 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: a slight decline, not an increase, both in the number 184 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: and in the number of strong hurricanes. So that's very 185 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: counter to what most of those headlines you you just mentioned. 186 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: If you look at the number of total hurricanes, they've 187 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: also tried to estimate that, making up for the fact 188 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: that there weren't ships back in times of old. And 189 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: they also find you cannot see an increase. Uh. The 190 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: only increase you see, and the one that Financial Times 191 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: showed was simply an increase in observed storms because we 192 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: have better technology. So most of this is simply hype. 193 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: This does not mean that there is no problem. So 194 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 1: we estimate that because of global warming, we will see 195 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: slightly fewer but slightly stronger hurricanes. Now stronger is worse 196 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: than fewer, so it actually turns out that hurricanes will 197 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 1: get a little worse. But we cannot tell right now. 198 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: So Noah and everybody else is telling us we can't 199 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: tell right now. It's only the newspapers that apparently have 200 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,079 Speaker 1: this ability, not the scientists, but the newspapers itselves. Oh 201 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: my god, it's all getting stronger and stronger. And one 202 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: obvious way that you can see this is do you 203 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: remember there were no hurricanes in the Atlantic in all 204 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 1: of our August uh, and it was you know, it's 205 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: the first time in twenty five years it happened, almost 206 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: nobody wrote about it. Then there's one huge hurricane that 207 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: hits Florida and everybody says, see global warming. That's not 208 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: a good way to get usselves informed. Now, a much 209 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: much stronger impact or or or knowledge is we know 210 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: that these catastrophes impact humans much much less. So if 211 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: you look at the number dead not just from storms, 212 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: but from all the kind of climate impacts that you have. 213 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: Some storms wifis extreme temperatures, droughts, and floods. We've seen 214 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: a dramatic decline of the last hundred years. In the 215 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties, on average, about half a million people died 216 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,599 Speaker 1: from these climate related disasters. Last year the number was 217 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 1: less than seven thousands. We've seen a dramatic decline in 218 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: more than This is not predominantly anything to do with climate, 219 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: but just simply the fact that as human kind get rich, 220 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 1: we get much more resilient. You know, if you live 221 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: in Florida, yes, hurricanes hit you and some people will die. 222 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: But if the same hurricane hit Guatemala, tens of thousands 223 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: of people would have died and it would have eradicated 224 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: their economy. So getting people out of poverty is a really, 225 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: really great strategy to make sure that people are not hurt. 226 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: And that's also what we see in the total impact 227 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: on GDP so globally of since the nineteen nineties, we 228 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:33,119 Speaker 1: have good global data. Uh, these climate related disasters typically 229 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: used to cost about zero point to five percent of GDP. 230 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: Now it's down to about zero point eighteen percent. That 231 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: tells you two things. It's not increasing as most people 232 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: would like you to believe, it's actually decreasing. And secondly, 233 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: of course it's a pretty small number. It's not nothing. 234 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: And if you live through this hurricane and and and Florida, 235 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: it was terrible, of course, But the fundamental point is 236 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: this is not the thing that will drive us to extinction. 237 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 1: This is not the end of human kind. If anything, 238 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: we're getting slightly better at dealing with these hurricanes and 239 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: all the other things. However, if we had had no 240 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: climate change, we would becoming even better at it. So 241 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: climate change makes us slightly less better over into the future. 242 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: That's a very different sort of message than the one 243 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: that you typically here name we we're all gonna die now. 244 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: When I was a kid um, even before I was 245 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: a real kid. In the seventies, I think it was 246 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: global cooling, right, and then it became global warming. I 247 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: think today it's just climate change. What is what they 248 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: talk about, right? Uh? And it seems like the temperature 249 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: is always changing, and I've heard some people say that, Um, 250 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: I think during the Roman Empire of the world was 251 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 1: six degrees warmer than it is today. Um, So is it? 252 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: Is it something that the climate is always changing and 253 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: so we're always having to kind of adapt to that. Again, 254 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 1: I'm I'm a social scientist, so I'm a little sort 255 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: of skeptical about these grand uh sort of claims that 256 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: we know the temperature, uh, you know, two thousand years ago, 257 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: it seems to me. So I've I've obviously read a 258 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: lot of the literature. Yes, the temperature has changed quite 259 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: a bit. And obviously when you go back to uh, 260 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: the ice ages that we've had, we had much much 261 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: lower temperatures, and I think most people, had had there 262 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: been more civilizations around, would have been stuck in a 263 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: much much less uh welcoming world. Uh. So you know, fundamentally, 264 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: we have to realize that things keep changing and it's 265 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: likely that whatever happens, researchers are gonna say, oh, could 266 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: that be a problem. We should actually be happy that 267 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: they do that, because you know, that's how we avoid problems. Yeah, 268 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: a lot of the things they worry about turn out 269 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: not to be worriable, but it's great that there are 270 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: people doing that for all of them. So, you know, 271 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: there were people investigating are we seeing a new global 272 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: cooling and they were telling us much of the same things. 273 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: You know, we'd get uh, we'd get less food, and 274 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: we'd have more catastrophes and all that kind of stuff. Um, 275 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: and it's probably slightly true because remember, everyone lives in 276 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: places that are adapted to what the climate was the 277 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: last couple of hundred years. So if you got colder, 278 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: old warmer, we'd be a little screwed. But it's important 279 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: to recognize we'd only be a little screwed because we 280 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: know how to deal with these things. So if you 281 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: take a comparison with Miami and Boston, obviously they have 282 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: very different climates and they're pretty well adjusted to where 283 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: they are, and both of them would be somewhat off 284 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: if it got colder, old warmer. But the trick is 285 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: to realize, we know that Boston can handle me much warmer, 286 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: because that's what Miami shows, and likewise that Miami could 287 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: get colder and we still know how to do it. 288 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: It would have a cost, but we've actually made pretty 289 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: good estimates of how big of a cost this is 290 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: going to be, and it's a fairly small cost. And 291 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: as you get richer, it becomes smaller because you become 292 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: more resilient. So, yeah, there is a problem, but let's 293 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: not get carrying away and get too scared. Yeah, to 294 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: that point about being resilient, I'm here in southern California, 295 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: which is a desert. Um it gets pretty hot. Next 296 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: door is Arizona, and we had a house out there 297 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: on the lake and in the summertime it gets to 298 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: be a hundred and twenty five degrees, which is about 299 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: fifty one and a half celsius, and people are blocking 300 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: out there. People are flocking out there. It's one of 301 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: the fastest growing areas. And it turns out we have 302 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: air conditioners and people get moved to a hundred five degrees. 303 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: It's insane. Um, let's talk more than about some of 304 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: the social impacts of this. And so I know, one 305 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: of the big things you you kind of made the 306 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: case that you know, it's like, uh, in in the 307 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: US our energy secretary, Um, it's just like in transportation secretary, like, oh, well, 308 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: this is really good because people should just go by 309 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: electric vehicles, just go spend eight or hundred thousand dollars. Sure, 310 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: but like we have a massive social impact to the 311 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: rest of the world that maybe people don't think about 312 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: in this viewpoint. Um. One of the ways, as as 313 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: I read a lot of this stuff, it seems that 314 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: one of the ways they're they're really trying to target 315 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 1: this is that if they can impose these carbon taxes 316 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: on us, um, then they can really make some change. 317 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: And it seems like most likely they want to impose 318 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: this climate tax because then if it costs US a 319 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: whole bunch more to drive our cars or fly our 320 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,239 Speaker 1: planes or eat our steak, then one we will do 321 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: less of that and to then UM, I guess they'll 322 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: have extra money to go find new solutions. But like 323 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: that's gonna severely impact at least half of the world. Yeah, 324 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 1: So I think there's a couple of points here. First 325 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: of all, most climate economists uh, and I consider myself 326 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: a tiny bit of that UM would tend to say 327 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: you should tax bads rather than goods. Right, So right now, 328 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,880 Speaker 1: we raise most of the public money that we raise 329 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: around the world on stuff we actually like, so you know, 330 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,479 Speaker 1: work and v a T for stuff you like to buy. Uh, 331 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: that somewhat inefficient. So if we could tax bats instead, 332 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: so tax for instance, uh, pollution, that would not be 333 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: a bad idea. Uh So the problem, of course is, 334 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: and I think, are you saying it's not a bad idea. 335 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: You're saying they're saying it's not a bad idea. So well, 336 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: I'm saying that it's probably not a bad idea in theory. 337 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 1: Now you're concerned. I think that would be a correct 338 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: one is if you give politicians more opportunities to tax. 339 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: It's not like they're gonna reduce your income tax and 340 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: reduce your VAT and then tax your carbon. They're just 341 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: gonna tax more. That is a real concern, and that's 342 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: something that politically needs to be talked out. But it 343 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: would actually be fairly effective way to tackle climate change 344 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: by having a moderate carbon tax. So I'm saying that 345 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: would be a pretty good idea. It's we need to 346 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: raise money in some way for for states, for no 347 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: other reason, for police and and enforcement and military and 348 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: infrastructure that kind of thing. So you should try to 349 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: tax bats rather than good it. But you really need 350 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: to make sure that politicians don't use as a spigot. Uh. 351 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: You're also right in saying that a lot of the 352 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: poor world couldn't afford to do that. You know, if 353 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: you actually try to, uh make the carbon taxes that 354 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: people are talking about in the rich world, that would 355 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 1: be absolutely devastating in most of the poor world. And moreover, 356 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: you have to realize that any realistic carbon tax is 357 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: not the main part of the solution, simply because any 358 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: realistic carbon tax is not going to change all that 359 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 1: much of what we do. You know, if if you 360 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,479 Speaker 1: want to get you to drive a lot less, you 361 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: need to really tax you a lot and and of 362 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: course we already did that in Europe. We have, you know, 363 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: much higher gasoline taxes and you have and people still 364 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: drive because it's actually really nice to be able to drive. 365 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: And and so the reality is you can moderate people's 366 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: behavior a little bit, but it's not really going to 367 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: be the main part of the solution. And that's why 368 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: I keep saying, let's not focus too much on this 369 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: technically correct thing, which is a carbon tax. But let's 370 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: focus much more on how do you normally solve big issues. 371 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: You don't solve them by telling people, I'm sorry, you 372 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 1: have to do less of the stuff you like. You 373 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: have to travel less, and you have to uh sweat 374 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: more and when it's hot and freeze more when it's cold, 375 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 1: and you have to you know, have a fewer burgers 376 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: and all that kind of That's not the way to 377 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: selve this issue. The way you do this is through innovation. 378 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: Imagine if we could come up with a clean green 379 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: energy source that was cheaper than fossil fuels, you would 380 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 1: have no problems, which nobody would have a problem. The 381 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: Chinese and the Indians wouldn't have a problem. So the 382 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: reality here is if you could innovate cheap green energy, 383 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: we'd be done. If you could have you know, say fusion, 384 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: and again fusion is somewhat of the holy Grail and 385 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:52,959 Speaker 1: also a little bit of a myth, but you know, 386 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: if we could actually do it, we would have all 387 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: the energy we need and it would have virtually no 388 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 1: cost and certainly no climate impact. That would be a 389 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: phenomenal solution. So instead of trying to get everybody to 390 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 1: do stuff they don't want tried to get people to 391 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: do stuff that's smart and innovative. If you think back 392 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties, Los Angeles was a terribly polluted place, 393 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: mostly because of air pollution from cars. Uh. This sort 394 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 1: of standard climate alarmist argument applied back then would be 395 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: to say, I'm sorry, could everyone just you know, park 396 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: their cars and just walk or run instead? Of course 397 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: you've never actually gotten anywhere with that. But the reality 398 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: is you didn't solve it that way. You solve it 399 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: with the catalytic converter somebody and innovative those a little thing. Yes, 400 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: it costs a little bit of money, You put it 401 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,199 Speaker 1: on the on the tailpipe, and then you can basically 402 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: drive and almost not pollute. That's how you solve problems, 403 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: not by telling people you can't, you shouldn't, you mustn't. Yeah, so, um, 404 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: I agree. Um. I recently wrote my own book, The 405 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: uncommon Is Manifesto, and in that book, we uh we 406 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: we really champion capitalism and say that it's not a 407 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 1: political modality. This is just the way natural humans work. 408 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: We we innovate. Instead of carrying one rock at a time, 409 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: I created a wheebarrel and I carry ten rocks at 410 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: the time, and so we're always trying to become more 411 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: efficient with scarce resources, Like that's our goal. Like, we're 412 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: always trying to become more efficient. And if we're competing 413 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: in business, you're trying to become more efficient and use 414 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: less resources than I do, so you have more profits 415 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: and and so forth. Um, So I get that there's 416 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: this natural drive. Um, when you talk about it like this, 417 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 1: I mean, are you saying that maybe it would be 418 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 1: better to have some sort of a government lad incentive 419 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: to do that, you know, some sort of like tax 420 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: tax incentives to reinvest into research and development something like that. 421 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 1: So I don't think it's tax. I think it's more 422 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: a subsidy for sorry, not a subsidy basically just grants 423 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: uh to UH to academic organization to come up with 424 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: the next big thing. Remember, and let me just walk 425 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: you through this. So in economics they would tend to 426 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: say there's a there's a persistent under investment in social 427 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: beneficial innovation. So you know, take for instance, medical care. Uh, 428 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 1: you have Fiser and all the other these other companies 429 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: that will make great products once they're pretty close to 430 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: market ability, but you don't make these big Nobel Laurent 431 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 1: breakthroughs that will you know, forty years down the line 432 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: create lots of uh profit. Why because by then your 433 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: patent has run out. So there's a substantial underinvestment in 434 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 1: long term stuff simply because you can't privatize most of 435 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: the benefit. Most of benefit is just going to be 436 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: social for everyone. And that's why we let me put 437 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: let me push back on that. Let me push back 438 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: on this for a minute. I would say the opposite. 439 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: I believe all innovation comes from private markets, not from 440 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: the government. And the reason and I can also point 441 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: to a good example. So, uh, the United States has 442 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: cut its emission by thirty over the last decade. How 443 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: has it been able to do that by mainly innovations 444 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: that happened with fracking that moved us to natural gas 445 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,959 Speaker 1: that low, or the emissions that was brought on by 446 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: the private market. Right, the government didn't invent that. As 447 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,400 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, government doesn't invent anything. And so 448 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: we see the government, like under Obama, give five million 449 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: dollars to do what Salona for solar panels and it 450 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: all just went to lagress and to fraud. Right, So um, 451 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: you know, maybe some sort of incentivizing private corporations to 452 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: do things if you need it. But uh, the carbon 453 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: emissions were cut the biggest that we've ever seen because 454 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: of private markets were created that. So I'll challenge you 455 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: on that. So, first of all, absolutely, we should not 456 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 1: be spending fining dollars and of finder billion dollars. And 457 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: wasn't it Celindra It was called clin right, right. But 458 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: but you know, there's a lot of ways to spend 459 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: money badly from government. But actually, so the Breakthrough Institute 460 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: has actually made a history of how did we spend 461 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: on on on on fracking? Uh? And and I also 462 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: met with Mitchell the billionaire he's dead now who who 463 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: champion much of fracking in Texas for the first ten years. 464 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: And basically what they did was they said, we think 465 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: this might work, but we can't get anyone to invest 466 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: in it. And so DARPA and many others UH and 467 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: d OE actually spent about ten billion dollars in total 468 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: from the federal government on, you know, helping these pioneers 469 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: figuring out how do you do this so that eventually 470 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: becomes uh, cost beneficial. That turned out to be an 471 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: incredibly good investment but nobody at the time was really 472 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: willing to do this in the private company. So there 473 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: is an argument for saying that George Bush started this 474 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: uh and in the early two thousand's, obviously not because 475 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: he cared about the the climate change, but because he 476 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: wanted to have the US have more gas and oil, 477 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 1: hopefully also so that they'd be more you know, you 478 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: guys would be more uh self sufficient. But the fundamount 479 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: point was a little bit of money spent smartly was 480 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: actually great way to get everybody to innovate. This technology 481 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: does now caused the US to cut its compet emissions 482 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 1: more than any other nation of the last ten years. Absolutely, 483 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,439 Speaker 1: that's how you do it. But the point here is 484 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: that you need some companies or sorry, you need some 485 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: innovation that is not personally profitable, because you the innovation 486 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: of impact will be too far into the future. That's 487 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: why there's an under investment. That's why we spend a 488 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: lot of money publicly, you know, UH through a National 489 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: Research Foundation, many others in the health space. But likewise, 490 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: we're spending way too little on energy. And again, if 491 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: we could, for instance, all fusion energy, almost all fusion 492 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: energy is funded by the government I'm not arguing whether 493 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: that's a good or bad idea, but that's fundamently because 494 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: all private companies think it's a little bit too far 495 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: away for me to actually believe this is going to happen, 496 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: But imagine if it did, we, you know, all of 497 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: humanity would be better off. A second part is, of course, 498 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: if you at this in the US, you could probably 499 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: sell it to the rest of the free world, but 500 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: you'd have a hard time selling it to India or 501 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: to Ethiopia or something. But they would actually also have 502 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: a huge benefit. So there's just a humanitarian benefit from 503 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: doing these things. So I'm saying we should be spending 504 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: money specifically on innovation, and this this is mostly researchers 505 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: as opposed as opposed to because all the governments are 506 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 1: spending tons of money on windmills and solar panels, but 507 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: that's old technology that probably won't get us to where 508 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: we need. So we need innovation to find a new solution. Exactly. 509 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: Don't spend money on stuff we already know doesn't work. 510 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: Spend money on making new stuff that may work inten 511 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: twenty thirty years. That's the kind of thing that will 512 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: make the breakthrough. So you know, Craig Ventor, the guy 513 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: who cracked the human genome back in two thousands. He 514 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 1: has this idea, and it's slightly crazy idea, right. He 515 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: has this idea that he wants to grow algae on 516 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: the ocean surface, genetically modified algae that basically takes sunlight 517 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: and c O two and produce oil. Then we harvest 518 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: that whole thing out there every you know, a couple 519 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: of months, and bring it in and keep our entire 520 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: fossil fuel infrastructure and run an oil that's now CEO 521 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,719 Speaker 1: two free because we just soaked up the CEO two 522 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: out in the ocean surface, right, so we could basically 523 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: all grow our own Saudi Arabia out on the ocean 524 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: surface and keep our entire infrastructure. Now, it doesn't work 525 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: right now, which of course is why you haven't. We 526 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: haven't changed the whole infrastructure. But the point is, if 527 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: we give him some research money, and you know, there's 528 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: already some that are somewhat funding him, but yeah, we 529 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: should definitely give him a couple of million dollars so 530 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: that he can run his research project and perhaps come 531 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: up with the idea that's gonna power humanity for the 532 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: next many centuries. How cool would that be? And the 533 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: point is there are many of these ideas out there, 534 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: they're incredibly cheap, and we only need one of them 535 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: to become true. Yeah, now, um, we are spending um. 536 00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: I know you have talked about like what is what 537 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: is global warm and going to cost us? I know, 538 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: like in the copy seing they had last year, right, 539 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: they came out with like a price tag of one 540 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty trillion dollars they wanted to spend over 541 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: the next whatever thirty years, And I think that was 542 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: mostly to transition us into this wind and solar. Now 543 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: you said that renewables don't work. Why why would we 544 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: spend that money trillions of dollars and the stuff we 545 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: already know it doesn't work um or or at least 546 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: works a lot less effectively, which of course means that 547 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: most people are not actually going to do it. The 548 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: simple point is what are you gonna do when the 549 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: sun is not shining and the wind is not blowing? 550 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: People kind of blow off this question, but that is 551 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: the fundamental problem. Now, you can have solar, and actually 552 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: makes sense to have solar in California because you use 553 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: a lot of UH air conditioning in the middle of 554 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: the day when solar panels make a lot of energy, 555 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: and so we kind of know, and you know, you 556 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: really don't need air condition nearly as much if the 557 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: sun is not shining, you know, if it's a cloudy day. 558 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: So it actually makes sense to have some solar that 559 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: actually just you know, power your air conditioning in the 560 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 1: middle of the day. But when you beyond that, you're 561 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: basically just setting yourself up for failure. You're saying, all right, 562 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: so we get a lot of our solar uh, a 563 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: lot of our energy from solar, a little bit more 564 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: than the middle of the day, but then right when 565 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: the sun goes down, we need to ramp up everything 566 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: and have lots and lots of stand up, stand stand 567 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: by power. And that basically just means you have to 568 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: buy your whole energy system twice, both have the solar 569 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: panels and then have the gas peekers back up, and 570 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: that means your energy becomes much more expensive and you 571 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: haven't solved very much of the problem. The way to 572 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: do that. People will then say, oh, what about batteries 573 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: right now, batteries can supply the entire work global energy 574 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: electricity of production for one minute and fourteen seconds. So no, 575 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: you know, once that happens, you're you're basically back to 576 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: relying on fossil fuels and this is not going to 577 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: change anytime soon. So the point here is we need 578 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: to find something that actually gives baseload power, which could 579 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: be nuclear, could be fusion, it could be you know 580 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: Craig Vendor's idea. There's a lot of different ways it 581 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: could be. But it's very unlikely that it's going to 582 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: be solar with lots and lots and lots and lots 583 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: of batteries. Yeah, well, and then then you have to 584 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: look at the cost benefit analysis. So then what is that? 585 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: What does that look like to get enough minerals to 586 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: build all those batteries, what is the what is the 587 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: carbon output to to even do that? What does the 588 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: world look like after you've dug up half the world 589 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: and how to process all those medals and you know, 590 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: ship them all over the world. I mean, what does that? 591 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: What does that do? So but but let's do you 592 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: look at this as a net like the world is altogether, 593 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: like we're one world? Or is it like region by region? 594 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: And the reason why I asked that is like, should 595 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: we be trying to get um. We could probably when 596 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: you're when you're trying to improve things the earth. The 597 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: beginning part of the improvements the easy part. It's the 598 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: last mile that's the hardest, right. So, like it would 599 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: make sense if we look at the world as a net, uh, 600 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: that we could really make massive gains in the Third 601 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: World to the emerging markets. Um, we're trying to get 602 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 1: morgan in the United States is going to be harder. 603 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: We've already cut UM. But it seems like the US 604 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: has this policy and obviously Europe it does as well, 605 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: where it's like, uh, you know, the UK or Germany, 606 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: we're not going to get our natural gas out of 607 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: the ground because climate change, but that's okay if Russia does, 608 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: and we'll just buy it from Russia. How do you 609 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: see that as a regional or is it global? Because 610 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: that's to me it seems like we should global. Yeah, 611 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: it's the world is obviously regional or even just national, 612 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: and and there's a lot of stuff that we do 613 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: that's very very stupid. Uh. Now that doesn't necessarily mean that, 614 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: you know, it's a good idea, and most sort of 615 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: UH analysts would tend to try and say let's first 616 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: look at it from a global level. And yet you're 617 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, we should try to get India and 618 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: China and many others to cut their common emissions because 619 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: it's much much cheaper to do there than in the 620 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: US or in Europe. But it turns out to be 621 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: really hard because they actually have other parties. You know, 622 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: if your poor, that's your basic objective, you know, get 623 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: people out of poverty and make sure that you get 624 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: a better life. And it's hard to disagree with, you know, 625 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: if we're sitting here in world, Yeah, you can't really say, sure, 626 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: they shouldn't become rich, which I think a lot of 627 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: Greens are. They're not saying that out right, and of 628 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: course if you actually put in their face, they would 629 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: say no, no, of course they should become rich. But 630 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: the actual impact of the policies that they're pushing are 631 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: essentially to keep them much less rich or even in poverty. 632 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: John Carrey said as much, right, and and we just, yeah, 633 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: we're just not gonna manage to get them on board 634 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,239 Speaker 1: for doing that. But the reality is we need to 635 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: talk about how much is it gonna cut cost to 636 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: cut carbon emissions and how much benefit is it gonna do. 637 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: And and first of all, I think I just want 638 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: to show you one very basic thing, which is, yeah, 639 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: there's a lot of economists who have been working on 640 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: what is actually the cost of climate change, and one 641 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: of them, William Nordhouse from University, got the Nobel Price 642 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: in two thousand and eighteen. He's the only climate economist 643 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: to get the Nobel Prize. What he found was that 644 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: if we do nothing about climate the impact by the 645 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: end of the century is equivalent to the world being 646 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: about four percent less well off than we would otherwise 647 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: have been. It's important to say, you know, four percent 648 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: is not the end of humanity, but it's not nothing. 649 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: But just to give you a sense of proportion, the 650 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: un Climate Panel estimates that by the end of the century, 651 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: each person on the planet will be about four hundred 652 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: and fifty percent as rich as he or she is today. 653 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: That's an amazing achievement, right, will be much much better 654 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,840 Speaker 1: off by the end of the century. Climate change means 655 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: that instead of being four and a fifty is rich, 656 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: it'll feel like we're only four hundred and thirty four 657 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: percent is rich. Now that's a problem, you know, we 658 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: I'd rather be four undred fifty percent is right, but 659 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: it's not the end of the world. The world will 660 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: be fantastically much better, but because of global warming, slightly 661 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: less fantastically much better. That's a very different framework than 662 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: the one that we typically the world is gonna be 663 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: a hellscape and world just gonna be dead, and you know, uh, 664 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: fire is going to be everywhere in dropping all the 665 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:14,879 Speaker 1: stuff that you don't like, and of course there's gonna 666 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 1: be lots of hurricane ends and you know all that 667 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,919 Speaker 1: kind of that's just not the reality of those. Yeah, 668 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: and it's certainly better than living back under freezing cold 669 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: conditions with candles like they're about to in Europe at 670 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: some point, maybe this this year. But back to kind 671 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: of that point that I was talking about, So, Germany 672 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 1: doesn't want to get their natural gas out of the 673 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: ground because you know, climate, but if if Russia does, 674 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: that's fine, and we'll just get it from Russia, no 675 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: big deal. But that affects the global climate change, so 676 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: like whether so why not just Germany just get out 677 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: of ground. It's the same thing, right, I mean, I 678 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: guess it makes them feel good. But back to the 679 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: point that I was trying to get to, is investing 680 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: money in what we know works, and so we know 681 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: that as we use more energy dense materials. So if 682 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: we go from wood to coal, that's better. From coal 683 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 1: to uh natural gas, oil, natural gas, etcetera. Right, we 684 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: get better, better, better, So um to your point, um, India, 685 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 1: China and other nations that are trying to bring their 686 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: people out of poverty, as they should in my opinion, 687 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 1: I mean, it's apocalyptic for people today that have no energy, 688 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: and so we should. But the US could just increase 689 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: its natural gas output as Europe, as the UK, as Germany, 690 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,320 Speaker 1: as Europe could. We could increase natural gas ouput and 691 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: we could get that to those countries or help them 692 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: get it, or help them get nuclear, which would drastically 693 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: bring that down. We know it works. They would of 694 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: course love to have uh cheap abundant energy, which is 695 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,760 Speaker 1: what they want, and we could have a massive impact, 696 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 1: seems um. But maybe that's too common sense. Oh, I'm 697 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: sure common sense is a problem here. But but but 698 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,879 Speaker 1: I think it's it's it's more a question of realizing that, 699 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,799 Speaker 1: you know, most of the countries are not stupid. They 700 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: know what actually works, which of course is why they 701 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: still build lots of coal fire power because you know, 702 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: in many of these areas, Uh, coal is still the cheapest. 703 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,359 Speaker 1: Now it has you know, some terrible consequences. Actually, Uh, 704 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: it makes a lot of air pollution, which is the 705 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: main problem with coal. It really kills you know, more 706 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: than half a million people every year. So you know, 707 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 1: it's it's it's something that we should be concerned about. 708 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: And certainly, as you get richer, you will probably stop 709 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: using coal as much and start switching to gas. The 710 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 1: point that we can help with, I think, is simply 711 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,439 Speaker 1: to make sure that the cleaner choices are available as 712 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: soon as these countries have gotten out of poverty and 713 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: are now starting to say, just like we are, i'd 714 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,919 Speaker 1: like a cleaner environment. So the reality here is, yes, 715 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: we should try to go for cheaper nuclear. Remember current 716 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: generation nuclear, so third generation nuclear is quite expensive, especially 717 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: in the in the first world, So in the rich world. Uh, 718 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 1: you know, they constantly run over when you build them, 719 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,879 Speaker 1: and they're you know, they generate some of the most 720 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: expensive electricity. It would be wonderful if they didn't, but 721 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: that's not where we are now. Fourth generation nuclear like 722 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:07,879 Speaker 1: the thing that for instance, Bill Gates and many others 723 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: are are pushing for and investing in could potentially make 724 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: green energy. So you know, no SUE two energy incredibly 725 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: cheap and incredibly safe. I'm I'm excited about that, and 726 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: I would certainly I would certainly love that, But but 727 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: I don't know. So if we can get fourth generation 728 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: nuclear to be cheaper than fossil fuels and safe, obviously, 729 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: this is the kind of technology that people are going 730 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: to go for everywhere on the planet, both enrich countries 731 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: but also in poor countries. And we should be focusing 732 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: on a lot of these different technologies because we don't 733 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 1: know if it's going to be fourth generation nuclear. We 734 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,800 Speaker 1: should be funding all of these technologies. And again, remember 735 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: funding all of them with cheap researchers would still be 736 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 1: much much cheaper than what we're currently spending just on 737 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 1: subsidizing ineffective solar and wind. And I think, I mean, 738 00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: we have to keep kind of coming back to that point, 739 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: to the point that you aided, which I would agree with, Like, 740 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 1: we already know these technologies don't work. Why would we 741 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,439 Speaker 1: continue to go down this path and until we find 742 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: something that does work and then we want to invest 743 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,879 Speaker 1: that money. Um, But the threat that I kept trying 744 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: to pull on was if we're really trying to bring 745 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 1: down the climate, you know, fix the climate for the world, 746 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 1: as opposed to, well, look how good the US is 747 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: and the rest of the world sucks, but like at 748 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: least we're good here, but like it affects us all 749 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:24,840 Speaker 1: because we're all in the same world. So again, it 750 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 1: seems like we could probably even again use some of 751 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: this money to maybe help them get their emissions up 752 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: a little bit, as opposed to trying to continue to 753 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: do things that don't work. Um, you would, uh, you would, 754 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: you would said in your book you had a section called, um, 755 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: why the Paris Agreement is falling is a failing And 756 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: obviously the Paris Agreement is this agreement that gets the 757 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: world coordinated to all bring down their emissions together supposedly, right. Um. 758 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,399 Speaker 1: I've did a video on the climate on the Paris 759 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 1: Accord at one point, not on the science, just on 760 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: the actual agreement itself, and basically each nation just commits 761 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 1: to what they're going to do, right Um. But again, 762 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 1: it's trying to get this world coordinated to come down, 763 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 1: and we know we can get these other nations come down. 764 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,359 Speaker 1: India agreed, committed and you can correct me if I'm wrong, 765 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: if it's changed. But they had committed to um not 766 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: increase their emissions as a percentage of their GDP. I think, 767 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 1: so as long as their GDP keeps going up, I remember, 768 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 1: which is not actually constraining them out, there's no constraint. 769 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,799 Speaker 1: And then China agreed to uh increase their CEO two 770 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,240 Speaker 1: until and then of course maybe you know, hopefully they 771 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 1: promised that they'll they'll bring it down. Why do you 772 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: say that it's failing the paras of Cord, Well, fundamentally, 773 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: because most countries, when it comes down, you know, when 774 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 1: the rubber hits the road, they're not willing to spend 775 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,799 Speaker 1: a lot of money to be worse off and not 776 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:57,879 Speaker 1: actually contribute to compnaations very much. This is not rocket science. Uh. 777 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 1: And so we've all gotten together and promise we're going 778 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: to do stuff that's hard, that's politically inconvenient, and that 779 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 1: will have fairly little impact. Remember, even if we all 780 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 1: did the Paris Agreement, Uh, the impact would almost be 781 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 1: unmeasurable by the end of the century. We need to 782 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 1: cut much much more if we're actually going to make 783 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: a difference. And of course that's why this is such 784 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 1: a hard problem. And that's again why I'm saying, instead 785 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 1: of trying to make this about you know what, we 786 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,439 Speaker 1: promised all these hard things in Paris, but it's not enough, 787 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: so we have to do even harder things that's never 788 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: gonna sell tickets. Instead, you know, focus on innovation. So 789 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: parents agreement is failing fundamentally because it has fairly little 790 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 1: benefits and has a huge cost. And the benefits a 791 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,839 Speaker 1: distributed around the world, but the cost are to each 792 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,200 Speaker 1: individual nation. That's a very hard thing, uh to live 793 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: up to. And that's of course why everyone goes to 794 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: all these meetings, make lots of promises, get all the applause, 795 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 1: and then go home and don't do it. Um. This 796 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 1: this is reaching a little bit here. But um do 797 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,680 Speaker 1: you think there's ulterior motives? Um in the climate agenda? 798 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 1: So um forcing us to spend all this money into 799 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,319 Speaker 1: technology we know it doesn't work wind and solar, all 800 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 1: the wind and solar comes from China. Um using uh, 801 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: you know, using a carbon based credit system to control 802 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,719 Speaker 1: movement and um you know what we eat things like that. Um. 803 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: Do you think there's some ulterior motive there? Because it 804 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,080 Speaker 1: seems again common sense would say, shoot, we know these 805 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:26,879 Speaker 1: things don't work. Why would you spend a hundred chillon dollars. 806 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: We can make a bigger impact on the world by 807 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 1: just doing a few things that we already know works. Um, 808 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:36,920 Speaker 1: it seems so simple to me. Yeah. So the short 809 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,760 Speaker 1: answer is, when I've met with all these guys, UH, 810 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 1: my understanding is that they're really strongly feel that this 811 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: is a big problem, and because they're worried about climate change. 812 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,680 Speaker 1: But of course everyone else latches onto us. So yeah, 813 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,719 Speaker 1: when we had the big climate UH conference in Copenhagen, uh, 814 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,839 Speaker 1: not surprisingly, the world's biggest UH wind turbine producer, which 815 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: happens to be Danish, had all the metro stations plastered 816 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 1: with advertisements say make a strong deal, which incidentally will 817 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,400 Speaker 1: also make us rich. Yeah, it's not surprising that everybody 818 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 1: sort of slots in there and try to see if 819 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: they can make money. And I'm pretty sure that you know, 820 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 1: Russia and uh, China and many others would love to 821 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:24,279 Speaker 1: see the West encumbering their economies with more costs while 822 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,840 Speaker 1: they're not doing it. So obviously there's a lot of 823 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:31,240 Speaker 1: sort of uh COD benefits from a lot of other players. 824 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: But my sense is that when you have this kind 825 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,600 Speaker 1: of conversation, it's more helpful to actually take people on 826 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 1: their on their statements. Certainly, most people in the rich 827 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,360 Speaker 1: world do want to do climate because they're really worried 828 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 1: about climate. And so I try to say, look, yes, 829 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 1: I get you're worried. You're probably overworried because you've heard 830 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 1: a lot of these statements that you started off with 831 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,760 Speaker 1: that are not actually and factually correct. It is a problem, 832 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,480 Speaker 1: but a much smaller one than you think. And also 833 00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 1: that you haven't heard that most of the policies are 834 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 1: being proposed are actually incredibly expensive ways to do very little. 835 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,120 Speaker 1: If that's true, why don't we try to get you 836 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,000 Speaker 1: here and then say, shouldn't we do smarter stuff? And 837 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,719 Speaker 1: that's what we've been talking about, investing for instance, and uh, 838 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,880 Speaker 1: innovation that will actually come up with great solution. I 839 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: like it. I mean, and to to the point that 840 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:17,960 Speaker 1: you've made, I mean, and and and the point of 841 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,839 Speaker 1: the book, right the the alarmism is a little bit misguided. 842 00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:23,920 Speaker 1: The stat that you said that will be four percent 843 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:26,839 Speaker 1: less well off at the end of the century, I mean, 844 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 1: it's uh, hey, I mean, we don't want to be 845 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,439 Speaker 1: less well off. Let's be as as as better well 846 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,320 Speaker 1: off as we can be. But this is at the 847 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,319 Speaker 1: end of the century, right, this is a long time, 848 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,400 Speaker 1: and so we have time to find a better solution 849 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,320 Speaker 1: and then we can go in on that new solution 850 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 1: when we find it again. It just seems so common sense. Yeah, 851 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 1: if if you think about do you remember the CFLs 852 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:52,040 Speaker 1: the compact fluorescent lightbulbs, uh that you know, certainly Europe. 853 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 1: I'm not sure whether US forced everyone to stop using 854 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 1: incandescent lightbulbs and you need to switch the CFL L 855 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:05,480 Speaker 1: L E ED bulb. He's really inconveniently sorry LED. Yeah, 856 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:09,440 Speaker 1: there there no, no, no, it was before LED. So 857 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,719 Speaker 1: like in the early two thousand's, everyone was forced to 858 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,880 Speaker 1: switch to these very they're pretty large, and they you know, 859 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,880 Speaker 1: they needed like a second to fire up, and you 860 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,920 Speaker 1: couldn't really dim them and all this stuff. They were inconvenient. 861 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,840 Speaker 1: People hated the light and everything. Certainly in Europe also 862 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:30,600 Speaker 1: many other places, we basically forced people to switch because 863 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 1: you'll save some energy and then you'll save climate. Turn 864 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,560 Speaker 1: out that LED lamps came around just you know a 865 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:42,000 Speaker 1: few short years later, and they were much better, much cheaper, 866 00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:46,359 Speaker 1: they saved much more energy, and everyone would want them now, 867 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,839 Speaker 1: because you'd force people to do the bad switch Now, 868 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:51,840 Speaker 1: a lot of people are already because they were expensive, 869 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,680 Speaker 1: they wouldn't want to then change over again to another 870 00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 1: expensive led. So we actually ended up because we wanted 871 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,640 Speaker 1: to do so much good, we actually ended up cutting 872 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,280 Speaker 1: less than we otherwise would have had we just waited 873 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,480 Speaker 1: for the really smart solution. So that's in a small 874 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,040 Speaker 1: and capsule of what you're basically saying, let's not do 875 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 1: the dumb stuff now, let's make sure it's smart, and 876 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,239 Speaker 1: then you know, switch over. No, I agree, so, Um, 877 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,160 Speaker 1: I'm all about market innovation. It's the forced changes that 878 00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,160 Speaker 1: I have a problem with, which is where when you 879 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,120 Speaker 1: start getting government involved a little bit, and these kind 880 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,320 Speaker 1: of force changes can be sticky. But that's not the 881 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,240 Speaker 1: point that you're making. Um. And then I guess finally 882 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,320 Speaker 1: you talk about how to actually fix climate change. So 883 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,960 Speaker 1: you don't just sit there and talk about problems. Um, 884 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,840 Speaker 1: nor nor do you deny it. Um, you're just realistic 885 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:38,840 Speaker 1: about what they've stated their goals. Again back to this 886 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,839 Speaker 1: kind of four percent less well off. But um, so 887 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,560 Speaker 1: overall then, UM, the way that we can really affect 888 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:50,879 Speaker 1: climate changes with innovation, um and then by you say, 889 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,120 Speaker 1: by prosperity, and that's I guess, by helping these other 890 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,120 Speaker 1: nations kind of rise up to have enough money to 891 00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:00,239 Speaker 1: where they'll want to do the switch over explain and 892 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,680 Speaker 1: and even even just within the US. Uh So, back 893 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,000 Speaker 1: in Europe in two thousand three, we had a big 894 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,359 Speaker 1: heat wave. A lot of especially old people died in 895 00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,960 Speaker 1: Paris and France basically because they were stuck in their apartments. 896 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,440 Speaker 1: They didn't have enough what what are they didn't have 897 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,520 Speaker 1: air conditioning. Uh and and you know that was terrible. 898 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,480 Speaker 1: You know, maybe up to about fifteen thousand people died 899 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,200 Speaker 1: just in Paris. Uh and And so people will say 900 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,880 Speaker 1: we should do something about climate change in order to 901 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,480 Speaker 1: make sure that future generations of old people don't die 902 00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,960 Speaker 1: in Paris, France. I get that point, but you know, again, 903 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,160 Speaker 1: if you actually want to make sure that they don't die, 904 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,319 Speaker 1: maybe you should get them air conditioning. You should make 905 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,239 Speaker 1: sure that they have cheap power, that they have information 906 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,240 Speaker 1: about these things. There are a lot of other things 907 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,640 Speaker 1: that would be incredibly more effective. If you do climate policy. 908 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,760 Speaker 1: At best, you'll make sure that they will still suffer 909 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,319 Speaker 1: hotter and hotter temperatures, but they will die slightly less 910 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,279 Speaker 1: much more in stead of making sure that they get 911 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,200 Speaker 1: air conditioning and actually stop dying. And of course that 912 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,520 Speaker 1: was what the French government did, because you know, most 913 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:08,839 Speaker 1: people are not stupid. They realize you need to get 914 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,319 Speaker 1: air conditioning in old people's homes and so on, and 915 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,920 Speaker 1: so next time, and I think it was two thousand 916 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,160 Speaker 1: sixteen when there was another heatway, despite it was hotter 917 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:22,520 Speaker 1: than two thousand three, almost nobody died because we're smart species. 918 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,360 Speaker 1: So the simple point again comes down to say, do 919 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,560 Speaker 1: you want to do something that's ineffective, incredibly expensive and 920 00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,440 Speaker 1: don't help the future people, or do you actually just 921 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:36,759 Speaker 1: want to be smart? The salute the right answers oft 922 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:39,279 Speaker 1: and and that's the part that bothers me. And that's 923 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,160 Speaker 1: the part that bothers me. Um, And so we'll kind 924 00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:42,759 Speaker 1: of maybe wrap it up with kind of this last 925 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:44,520 Speaker 1: kind of thought. But that's the part that bothers me 926 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,879 Speaker 1: is Unfortunately, I'm afraid that what we're seeing by our 927 00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:52,520 Speaker 1: whatever leaders are politicians is not smart, and they're seeming 928 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,920 Speaker 1: to double down on policies that unfortunately are just driving 929 00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,279 Speaker 1: us right off the cliff and especially in Europe. I mean, 930 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,200 Speaker 1: you guys are in uh, you know, in some parts 931 00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,839 Speaker 1: of in in some serious problems. I mean, uh, not 932 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:09,359 Speaker 1: enough natural gas, not a fertilizer, not enough food, um, 933 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:12,319 Speaker 1: not enough heat. I mean Germany does has about enough 934 00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,319 Speaker 1: natural gas on reserves to get through about thirty percent 935 00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,279 Speaker 1: of their needs for for this winter. I mean that's 936 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,760 Speaker 1: a big problem. Uh, it's a it's a drastic reduction 937 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,600 Speaker 1: and quality of life at a minimum, if not fatal 938 00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:27,520 Speaker 1: in some cases. But they're only doubling down on these 939 00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,880 Speaker 1: policies as opposed to going, well, we tried it and 940 00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:31,360 Speaker 1: look at what the problems is. So let's kind of 941 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,719 Speaker 1: reverse course. Um. You know in the UK, you know, 942 00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,160 Speaker 1: I guess they're saying, hey, well, at least offset some 943 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,680 Speaker 1: of this. But I mean we got Germany's d industrializing. 944 00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:43,560 Speaker 1: That's a big problem. Um. So the question I ask is, then, 945 00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:45,160 Speaker 1: I know you're at the kind of the forefront of this. 946 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,719 Speaker 1: You speak about this, you're talking to people, you're you're 947 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:49,799 Speaker 1: one of the most influential people in the world on 948 00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,880 Speaker 1: this subject. Um, it seems that they're making not smart 949 00:49:53,920 --> 00:50:00,000 Speaker 1: decisions and they're doubling down and not reversing course, Uh, 950 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,719 Speaker 1: is that what you see? And and is there hope? 951 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,120 Speaker 1: I mean, are they gonna go okay, Uh, this doesn't work. 952 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,600 Speaker 1: Let's let's switch. What is it gonna take for them 953 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:10,040 Speaker 1: to get off of these these positions that are just 954 00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:16,359 Speaker 1: driving people into a dark, cold world. Well, Mark, I 955 00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 1: wish I had the answer to that. That's you know, 956 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,720 Speaker 1: that's the argument that I keep trying to get people 957 00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:25,200 Speaker 1: to understand. Uh. So as you know, uh, if you 958 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,040 Speaker 1: believe strongly enough in any political you know, sort of statement, 959 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,879 Speaker 1: you you can consistently for a very long time keep 960 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,399 Speaker 1: sort of explaining away, uh, the facts as you see them. 961 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,839 Speaker 1: So you know, most people over here will say, oh, 962 00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,960 Speaker 1: it's just because of Putin, and that's not incorrect that 963 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,960 Speaker 1: Putin certainly has part you know, Putin's Warren and Ukraine 964 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,600 Speaker 1: has part of as part of the reason. Uh. And 965 00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,839 Speaker 1: they will also say, but if we if we'd had 966 00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,160 Speaker 1: lots and lots of renewables, we wouldn't have had this problem, 967 00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:59,719 Speaker 1: which sounds beguilingly true, but it's not right because the 968 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,920 Speaker 1: real problem with renewables is not that they're expensive. It 969 00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:05,440 Speaker 1: is that you don't have any when the sun is 970 00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:07,680 Speaker 1: not shining and the wind is not blowing, and so 971 00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:12,560 Speaker 1: fundamentally you can't have an economy without baselow power, and 972 00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,600 Speaker 1: we don't. And we've increasingly said goodbye to cole, goodbye 973 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:20,759 Speaker 1: to much of the fossil fuel that underpin renewables. And 974 00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:22,799 Speaker 1: this is part of the reason why we're seeing this 975 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:24,440 Speaker 1: big problem, and we're doing it for the rest of 976 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,120 Speaker 1: the world as well. Uh, you know, a lot of 977 00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,320 Speaker 1: the poor world now is not allowed to invest in 978 00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:33,280 Speaker 1: in in in anything but green energy, so we're basically 979 00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:36,839 Speaker 1: forcing this choice on others. I don't think that we're 980 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,600 Speaker 1: gonna see an easy sort of off rap for this, 981 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,120 Speaker 1: because a lot of people, in a lot of organizations 982 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,680 Speaker 1: have put in a lot of their prestige in saying 983 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,520 Speaker 1: this is the world's biggest problem and we're gonna solve 984 00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:52,560 Speaker 1: it with solar and wind. But on the other hand, Yeah, 985 00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:57,799 Speaker 1: what typically happens is a technology come by and it's 986 00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,680 Speaker 1: just obviously cheaper, obviously better, and everybody realized, oh, okay, 987 00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,960 Speaker 1: we'll just do that instead. Imagine if you get cheaper 988 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,080 Speaker 1: you know, of a nuclear by two thousand thirty, it 989 00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,640 Speaker 1: will basically eradicate most of the stuff that we build 990 00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,360 Speaker 1: up with solar and wind. I I think we'll just 991 00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,160 Speaker 1: simply change leaders, and you know, the old leaders will 992 00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:18,680 Speaker 1: be somewhat discredited, and yes, we'll have wasted a lot 993 00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:21,959 Speaker 1: of money. All I'm trying to hope with these kinds 994 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,600 Speaker 1: of arguments as to try to make us, yeah, waste 995 00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:27,320 Speaker 1: slightly less money. I'm not very helpful that will stop 996 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:31,040 Speaker 1: wasting money, but hopefully we can be slightly smart. And 997 00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:34,400 Speaker 1: of course also in the US and elsewhere, you know, 998 00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:38,120 Speaker 1: please learn from our mistakes and don't make them. But 999 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:39,839 Speaker 1: but I think if you look at most of the 1000 00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,719 Speaker 1: rest of the world, it's not like China saying, oh, 1001 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:46,000 Speaker 1: we want lots of that renewables. They're doing some renewable 1002 00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,279 Speaker 1: some of us probably smart, some of us to make 1003 00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:49,920 Speaker 1: it look good in the rest of the world so 1004 00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:54,520 Speaker 1: they don't get embargoed um. Likewise in India and some 1005 00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,680 Speaker 1: of it, again is smart, but they're not going down 1006 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:01,399 Speaker 1: this route. They're mostly just fossil fuel societies, as we 1007 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:06,160 Speaker 1: were until a few short decades ago. Yeah, Unfortunately, sometimes 1008 00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, before you make serious change, you have to 1009 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,320 Speaker 1: feel serious pain. And you know, if you're an addict 1010 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:12,520 Speaker 1: or something like that, that knows you have to hit 1011 00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:14,440 Speaker 1: the hit the rock bottom. Hopefully we don't go that far. 1012 00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,600 Speaker 1: Seeing Belgium turn off their nuclear reactor something that we 1013 00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:20,279 Speaker 1: know works, that we know is safe, that works good, 1014 00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:22,680 Speaker 1: supplies temper cent of our energy an energy crisis, and 1015 00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,560 Speaker 1: we're gonna shut it off willingly. It doesn't. It doesn't 1016 00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,680 Speaker 1: give me a bunch of confidence. That's just insane. I 1017 00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,320 Speaker 1: mean all so, you can have a lot of conversation 1018 00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,319 Speaker 1: about nuclear, whether it's you know, when you build new 1019 00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,839 Speaker 1: nuclear it's actually pretty expensive because they have to look 1020 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,040 Speaker 1: up to an enormous amount of security uh and and 1021 00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:42,640 Speaker 1: safety regulations that are not all smart. But you know, 1022 00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,279 Speaker 1: it's very very hard to get rid of them. Um. 1023 00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,759 Speaker 1: But once you have a nuclear reactor, you paid the 1024 00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,319 Speaker 1: biggest cost running it costs almost nothing. Then you have 1025 00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,399 Speaker 1: to pay to decommission it. But you've already committed to that. 1026 00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,880 Speaker 1: So the reality is once it's running, it's some of 1027 00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:03,160 Speaker 1: the cheapest and at you. And again so Germany should 1028 00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:06,279 Speaker 1: never have decommissioned it. Uh. You know, fortunately California is 1029 00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:09,319 Speaker 1: now at least giving Diabolo Canyon a couple of years. 1030 00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,520 Speaker 1: But you should let it run as long as you can. 1031 00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:16,680 Speaker 1: It's the cheapest way to get great electricity runs seven 1032 00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:19,279 Speaker 1: and with no seto. How is that not just a 1033 00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:23,720 Speaker 1: win win win again. Talking about new new cliphouse plants 1034 00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:25,759 Speaker 1: is a very different game. But if you have them, 1035 00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,960 Speaker 1: you should not shut them off before you absolutely have 1036 00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:32,280 Speaker 1: Talking about innovation, you know, we've had nuclear we we 1037 00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:35,279 Speaker 1: we used to have ships that went by sales and 1038 00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:37,839 Speaker 1: then they burned fuel like coal, right, and then they 1039 00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:39,359 Speaker 1: went to other times of fuel. And now, of course 1040 00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:41,560 Speaker 1: our carriers and so forth run on nuclear today in 1041 00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,839 Speaker 1: the United States, right, our military, our navy, our submarines 1042 00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,640 Speaker 1: run on nuclear. And our submarines have been running nuclear 1043 00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:51,080 Speaker 1: for over sixty years. A couple of little pellets in there, 1044 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:53,840 Speaker 1: they run for sixty years, they never need fuel and 1045 00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:59,000 Speaker 1: there's never been a single accident ever. Um Imagine like 1046 00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:02,000 Speaker 1: you buy a brand new car uh uh an e V. 1047 00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,480 Speaker 1: A battery is not a power source, right, it just 1048 00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:06,800 Speaker 1: stores power. So the nuclear is a power source. Imagine 1049 00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:08,920 Speaker 1: a brand new car was just like a like a 1050 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,279 Speaker 1: like a thumbnail size a bit of nuclear in there, 1051 00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:12,879 Speaker 1: and the thing runs for ten years that never needs 1052 00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,520 Speaker 1: fuel again. And so those types of innovations that maybe 1053 00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,719 Speaker 1: maybe I am gonna I am gonna challenge that a 1054 00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:23,560 Speaker 1: little bit. You know, I'm very I'm very confident that 1055 00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:25,920 Speaker 1: you know, uh, a navy with lots and lots of 1056 00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:29,879 Speaker 1: billions and back up and and lots of staff can 1057 00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,680 Speaker 1: maintain a nuclear power actor. I'm not sure I would. 1058 00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:37,040 Speaker 1: I want to trust you know what, ninety million American drivers, 1059 00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:39,000 Speaker 1: I think we can all think of a couple of 1060 00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:42,520 Speaker 1: them that you should never have something that has nuclear 1061 00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:46,399 Speaker 1: inside of them. I was just saying, to your point 1062 00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,160 Speaker 1: of innovation, imagine a fourth and fifth generation, right, I mean, 1063 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,120 Speaker 1: it gets easier, it gets cheaper, gets safer, things like that, 1064 00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:54,080 Speaker 1: and so it just it just it just highlights some 1065 00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:55,880 Speaker 1: of the potential that we have if we could harness 1066 00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:58,480 Speaker 1: it and develop it even better. Certainly not there today 1067 00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:02,239 Speaker 1: for sure, but you are in great conversation. I appreciate it. 1068 00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:05,440 Speaker 1: Um the book. Everyone should go get it if you 1069 00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:09,799 Speaker 1: care about climate, as you should. Um. It's a it's 1070 00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:13,000 Speaker 1: a book of hope. It's a false alarm, but I 1071 00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,239 Speaker 1: like it. I mean it's we we have the thing. 1072 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,120 Speaker 1: The world's changing, like no one's trying to debate that. Uh, 1073 00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:20,360 Speaker 1: it's at what extent and uh and what is the 1074 00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:22,680 Speaker 1: what is the risk? And I believe everyone needs to 1075 00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:27,120 Speaker 1: understand the cost benefit analysis of both because you don't 1076 00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:29,600 Speaker 1: just get like, you don't just get one without the other. 1077 00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,160 Speaker 1: So anyway, being UM, anything you want to point to 1078 00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:33,839 Speaker 1: other than your book, we're gonna make sure to link 1079 00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:35,919 Speaker 1: that down below. Will link your website down below. Anything 1080 00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:38,319 Speaker 1: else you want to draw attention to UM if you 1081 00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,400 Speaker 1: if you're so inclined, you know, follow me on Twitter. 1082 00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:43,719 Speaker 1: That's where a lot of the you know, sort of 1083 00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,359 Speaker 1: very newish kind of arguments. But you know, we try 1084 00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:49,799 Speaker 1: to get out broadly, so hopefully you'll read some of 1085 00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:52,839 Speaker 1: my commentary in your daily newspaper. I try to write 1086 00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,520 Speaker 1: in Wall Street Journal in many other places around the way. 1087 00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:59,080 Speaker 1: Uh No, just it was great to talk to you 1088 00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:00,960 Speaker 1: Mark as well,