WEBVTT - Energy's DC Opportunity, Risk with Schneider

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<v Speaker 1>And welcome to the Votes and Verdicts podcast hosted by

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Intelligence, Bloomberg LP's investment research platform. In this podcast series,

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<v Speaker 1>we talk about the intersection of business policy and law.

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Brandon Barnes and I'm a senior analyst

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<v Speaker 1>with Bloomberg Intelligence covering energy litigation, regulation and policy. Today,

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<v Speaker 1>I am lucky enough that a longtime contact and friend

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<v Speaker 1>in the energy infrastructure world is joining us for our

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<v Speaker 1>second episode of the podcast, Tim Schneider. He's currently with

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<v Speaker 1>his own group after being a veteran of the cell

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<v Speaker 1>side for energy for years. Tim and I first cross

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<v Speaker 1>paths back when he was with Evercore when he invited

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<v Speaker 1>me to speak there, and we kept that relationship going

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<v Speaker 1>through his move back to city. So I think I

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<v Speaker 1>guess it's my turn, finally way overdue, to return the

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<v Speaker 1>favor and bring him somewhere. So Tim, welcome, thanks for

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<v Speaker 1>joining us.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, thank you for thank you for having me. It's

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<v Speaker 2>been a long time, so glad we can can connect here.

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<v Speaker 1>You've you've had a really interesting career that I think

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<v Speaker 1>spanned some geography and a number of different disciplines. I

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<v Speaker 1>was hoping you could share some of that with US

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<v Speaker 1>and talk about how that's led you to what you're

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<v Speaker 1>doing right now.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Absolutely. Look, I mean I've always I've always been

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<v Speaker 2>an energy kind of my whole my whole career. I

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<v Speaker 2>actually started out at at Haliburton while at the time

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<v Speaker 2>it was Kellic Brown and Route. That was when I

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<v Speaker 2>was still part of Haliburton in the Middle East a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of a couple of different countries. Then came back,

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<v Speaker 2>came back to the US and I kind of knew

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<v Speaker 2>I always wanted to be in finance. So I actually

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<v Speaker 2>started my first Wall Street job was at at Leeman Brothers,

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<v Speaker 2>kind of doing some stuff on the on the credit

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<v Speaker 2>risk side, and then moved over to Deutsche Bank, where

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<v Speaker 2>I kind of i you know, started as an associate

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<v Speaker 2>on the oil field services team. Went to City then

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<v Speaker 2>and kind of this is where I really started to

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<v Speaker 2>kicking kicking the attires and the midstream stuff. Then went

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<v Speaker 2>over to Evercourt to head up their midstream midstream platform,

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<v Speaker 2>and then the old City analysts left, and then City

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<v Speaker 2>you know called me and said, hey, Tim, do you

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<v Speaker 2>want to come come over and head up our energy

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<v Speaker 2>energy franchise. So I did that at for the America.

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<v Speaker 2>So came back to city and then recently recently left

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<v Speaker 2>to kind of start my own firm and look businesses

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<v Speaker 2>called the Schneider Capital Group LLC. And it's basically, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we're trying to help our customers navigate complexities along the

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<v Speaker 2>energy value chain and then also trying to identify some

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<v Speaker 2>opportunities to unlock and capture value for them. And I

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<v Speaker 2>really thought it was the time to do this because

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<v Speaker 2>I'm extremely I don't know if bullish is the right word,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm extremely I'm extremely excited to be in a

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<v Speaker 2>space to be an energy and I'm extremely excited to

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<v Speaker 2>kind of, you know, look at the next couple of

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<v Speaker 2>years and kind of see what's coming down the pipe,

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<v Speaker 2>no pun intended, right, and especially with this new with

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<v Speaker 2>the energy revolution and kind of what I think is

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<v Speaker 2>an all of the above approach going forward. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>extremely exciting, I think, And you know, we we work

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<v Speaker 2>with institutional asset managers, private equity firms, infrastructure funds come

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<v Speaker 2>out of you trading houses, some sovereign wealth funds, and

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<v Speaker 2>then obviously obviously corporate. So I actually do have Brandon,

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<v Speaker 2>I do have a hey, I do have my own

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<v Speaker 2>Twitter wire on Bloomberg now, so if you if you

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<v Speaker 2>are subscribed to that, you can you can follow my tweets.

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<v Speaker 2>And it took me a while to kind of learn

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<v Speaker 2>the hashtags and the dollar signs and all that, but

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<v Speaker 2>I got a I got the I got the introduction.

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<v Speaker 2>So I look, if anybody wants to wants to be

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<v Speaker 2>put on my distribution list, I post everything on the

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<v Speaker 2>website for now you can. You can ping me or

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<v Speaker 2>or or they can go through you. So happy, happy

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<v Speaker 2>to do that.

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<v Speaker 1>So that distribution list has been the source of a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of interesting content for me already, and I thought

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<v Speaker 1>that most, I mean the reason for us getting back

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<v Speaker 1>in touch was your Houston email. I thought that was

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<v Speaker 1>a very interesting discussion that peaued my sort of policy

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<v Speaker 1>antenna about where energy companies were thinking and where their

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<v Speaker 1>heads were at because of some of the policies that

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<v Speaker 1>have been offered in the past year, because of what's

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<v Speaker 1>coming down this year and maybe looking forward. Just interesting

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<v Speaker 1>to read about that and then think about what the

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<v Speaker 1>actual issues are that are making companies change their behavior

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<v Speaker 1>and change their allocations for resources.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Absolutely, and look, I mean maybe some context here

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<v Speaker 2>for the listeners. So I was in Houston now two

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<v Speaker 2>weeks ago, and it was basically, I mean the Kindram

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<v Speaker 2>Morgan analyst day was kind of the anchor, and I

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<v Speaker 2>met with a couple of other other corporates and then

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<v Speaker 2>also had a couple of meetings with with a few

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<v Speaker 2>folks in the in the industry. And I think before

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<v Speaker 2>we kind of get into some of this policy stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe it'd be helpful for the listeners to kind of

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<v Speaker 2>convey or at least kind of share with with you

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<v Speaker 2>my views and what's happening in the in the industry

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<v Speaker 2>right now. And I think it's it's it's extremely interesting

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<v Speaker 2>because you've you've kind of had this, I guess this

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<v Speaker 2>tug of war, in my opinion, at least between between

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<v Speaker 2>capital allocation, right I call it, and I kind of

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<v Speaker 2>call it threading the needle, right, And that's threading the

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<v Speaker 2>needle between returning cash to shareholders, whether or that is

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<v Speaker 2>via buybacks, dividend increases. I actually think debt reduction is

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<v Speaker 2>part of that equation as well, and then also what

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<v Speaker 2>I call kind of high grading the company for the future,

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<v Speaker 2>right And I'm not looking I'm not saying hydro carbon

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<v Speaker 2>traditional hydrocarbons are going away overnight. That certainly is not

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<v Speaker 2>going to happen. But at some point, right, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>the the renewable mix for these companies or clean clean mix,

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<v Speaker 2>well however you want to call it, is going to

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<v Speaker 2>get is going to get bigger, right, And I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's been difficult. It's I don't envy some of

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<v Speaker 2>these management teams that have to make these decisions of

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<v Speaker 2>you know, how do we kind of position ourselves for that?

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<v Speaker 2>So I actually think there's two things I think that

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<v Speaker 2>happened with that. The one thing is I think it

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<v Speaker 2>potentially sets up a kind of a wave of privatizations,

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<v Speaker 2>right because I think it's much easier to kind of

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<v Speaker 2>high grate yourself if you're a private company because you

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<v Speaker 2>don't really I mean, you don't have to answer shareholders, right.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think we're actually we saw a couple of

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<v Speaker 2>privatizations happen. I think this is back in eighteen nineteen.

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<v Speaker 2>Those those are altered. There's a couple portfolio companies of

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<v Speaker 2>large private equity firms, and I think that that's what

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<v Speaker 2>that's what's happening right now right in terms of how

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<v Speaker 2>they're positioning themselves. I don't know what their exit strategy

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<v Speaker 2>is we'll see and I think the other thing that

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<v Speaker 2>could potentially come come out of this, and I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>going to get into this in great detail on this podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a it's a that's a whole new discussion. For

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<v Speaker 2>another thing is you know, it probably sets up a

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<v Speaker 2>wave of M and A activity in the sector. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's you know, that's either interest subsector called upstream, upstream, midstream, midstream,

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<v Speaker 2>or if you want to be a bit more i'll

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<v Speaker 2>call it adventurous or think outside of the box. I

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<v Speaker 2>do think there's something to be said here for for

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<v Speaker 2>combining companies along the energy value chain, right, so that

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<v Speaker 2>would be upstream, midstream, midstream, downstream, or or along those lines.

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<v Speaker 2>But it ultimately a lot of this is kind of

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<v Speaker 2>tied back to how these companies are going to position

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<v Speaker 2>themselves for for the next couple of years here. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think obviously this is a that's where you and

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<v Speaker 2>I are.

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<v Speaker 1>Talking absolutely, and I think that tension is sort of

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<v Speaker 1>on either side of the needle. You're going to get

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<v Speaker 1>squeezed by potentially by either rhetoric or actual legislation policy

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<v Speaker 1>out of the government. So it's an interesting tension. So

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<v Speaker 1>what what do you see the companies doing about it

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<v Speaker 1>these days?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Look, I think there is if you look at

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<v Speaker 2>and and Kinder Morgan actually kind of I think did

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<v Speaker 2>a good job kind of kind of highlighting this. And

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<v Speaker 2>I always like to I like to use baseball analogies

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<v Speaker 2>because most people, most people understand it, right, and specifically

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<v Speaker 2>talking about innings, right, what inning are we in here?

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<v Speaker 2>For different things? So I'd say in terms of let's

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<v Speaker 2>let's look at some of the renewable stuff, right, I

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<v Speaker 2>think in terms of call it rang or renewable natural gas,

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<v Speaker 2>I think that industry in the US is relatively mature

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<v Speaker 2>at this point. You know, I'll call it just in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of the technology, right, alcohol and we can get

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<v Speaker 2>into that in a bit here how that are how

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<v Speaker 2>we kind of see that market shape shaving. But you know,

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<v Speaker 2>i'll give that middle to late innings. I think the

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<v Speaker 2>carbon capture and see frustration stuff. There's Robby still some

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<v Speaker 2>some more with the chop here, but there certainly is

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<v Speaker 2>you know, there's a lot of companies out there that

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<v Speaker 2>have have some pretty ambitious plans. It was actually interesting

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<v Speaker 2>Exxon just had their earnings call and they certainly they

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<v Speaker 2>certainly talked about that and then kind of a little

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<v Speaker 2>a little further along, I'll still call it earlier innings

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<v Speaker 2>is probably hydrogen althrough ammonia in that as well, But

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<v Speaker 2>those are kind of you know, those are kind of

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<v Speaker 2>I would say to three three main buckets at least

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<v Speaker 2>that we're getting a lot of a lot of questions on,

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<v Speaker 2>so happy to happy to kind of start where wherever

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<v Speaker 2>you want to start. Maybe we'll start with let's see

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<v Speaker 2>here low carbon fuel standards.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe let's do it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and look obviously, and then that was a focus

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<v Speaker 2>when when we're we're in Houston obviously right now, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>let's talk about renewable diesel, right, all renewable diesel right

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<v Speaker 2>now is kind of gravitating towards California, right, And the

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<v Speaker 2>reason it wants to get there is because, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>you certainly have, if you're looking at you call it

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<v Speaker 2>low carbon fuel standards, right, a pretty well developed three

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<v Speaker 2>layer tax credits, so everybody kind of gets to two

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<v Speaker 2>layers from the federal perspective. And then obviously in California,

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<v Speaker 2>what makes that so lucrative is the credit that you're

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<v Speaker 2>getting in California and just kind of putting putting some

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<v Speaker 2>numbers around that. I think last time I checked in California,

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<v Speaker 2>into subsidy kind of equates to about four dollars per gallon.

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<v Speaker 2>Why is that happening in California? Obviously, Look, the state's

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<v Speaker 2>been relatively I guess i'll call it progressive, and I think,

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<v Speaker 2>off the top of my head here, I think their

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<v Speaker 2>goal is to eliminate for California the state's greenhouse guess emissions,

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<v Speaker 2>I want to say by twenty five. I think that's

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<v Speaker 2>what they've kind of I think that's what they've put

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<v Speaker 2>out there. And look, I think the other interesting thing

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<v Speaker 2>here is that we came away with in Houston is

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<v Speaker 2>what other states are potentially going to copy or at

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<v Speaker 2>least adopt some sort of a footprint that we're seeing

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<v Speaker 2>in California right now. I think that's interesting from a

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<v Speaker 2>midstreamer's perspective, because if you already have assets, call it

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<v Speaker 2>terminal assets or whatnot, in one of those states right now,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll use I'll use Oregon, Oregon, because that's probably the

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<v Speaker 2>furthest along here. There's there's some stuff going on in

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<v Speaker 2>Washington State as well, but I'm I'm I actually don't

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<v Speaker 2>know specifically where they are in that process. But I

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<v Speaker 2>think back back to back to the point I was making,

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's interesting for companies that have assets in

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<v Speaker 2>those states potentially because obviously, look, it's a tremendous amount

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<v Speaker 2>of operating leverage, right, you already have the existing asset footprint,

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<v Speaker 2>and it just would kind of a cree to the

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<v Speaker 2>bottom line in my opinion at least. But look, I

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<v Speaker 2>think at this point it's probably I don't think people

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<v Speaker 2>are really discounting it. So actually curious have you guys

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<v Speaker 2>spent a lot of time kind of kind of looking

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<v Speaker 2>at that what's going to happen with with some of

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<v Speaker 2>these different.

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<v Speaker 1>States, So not on a state by state policy basis,

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<v Speaker 1>but the way we've been looking at it most recently

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<v Speaker 1>is we've been focused on, you know what, how did

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<v Speaker 1>these credit stack got to force new projects being on offer?

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<v Speaker 2>Right?

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<v Speaker 1>It was always more recently the question was where does

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<v Speaker 1>if we're building pipes, what are they going to transmit?

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<v Speaker 1>Because it's so hard to build natural gas pipes, it's

0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.439
<v Speaker 1>very difficult to build crew pipes just from a regulatory standpoint,

0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:22.880
<v Speaker 1>And so we've watched some of the bigger new projects

0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:25.640
<v Speaker 1>coming out of the Midwest or actually co two pipes, right,

0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:29.000
<v Speaker 1>And so that's where it's an interesting you know, are

0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:32.199
<v Speaker 1>these state level programs combined with the federal programs, are

0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:36.720
<v Speaker 1>they actually forcing changes in the dynamic? And that's what

0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:37.959
<v Speaker 1>we're focused on right now.

0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:41.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you actually you bring up a really interesting

0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:44.559
<v Speaker 2>point and that kind of gets back to what are

0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.600
<v Speaker 2>the actual returns on some of these projects? Right? So

0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:50.520
<v Speaker 2>kinder Morgan, actually I thought I keep coming back to

0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:53.040
<v Speaker 2>them because that was kind of the impetus of this

0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:55.680
<v Speaker 2>discussion because it's who I went to see down in Houston.

0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, I mean they have a what's the backlog

0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:03.040
<v Speaker 2>I think to over three billion and the implied the implied,

0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.520
<v Speaker 2>and so that that's not all going to be renewables, right,

0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:08.920
<v Speaker 2>but it's you know, I think they kind of bucketed

0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:15.040
<v Speaker 2>as eighty percent towards carbon reduction or whatnot, but there

0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:18.040
<v Speaker 2>certainly is some some capex in there for renewable natural

0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:21.040
<v Speaker 2>gas and so forth. But look, I mean they're saying

0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:25.560
<v Speaker 2>they can bring that backlog online that kind of you

0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.120
<v Speaker 2>call it three and a half three and a half times.

0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.040
<v Speaker 2>So I think that that obviously is you look at

0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:35.320
<v Speaker 2>traditional midstream returns typically call it you know, I'll use

0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:39.600
<v Speaker 2>a range of six to eight times on EBITDA. And

0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:43.680
<v Speaker 2>I think what's been interesting. I don't know if you

0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:47.280
<v Speaker 2>saw the the article that just came out on BP,

0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:53.080
<v Speaker 2>because BP really had been had been the penalty box

0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:57.160
<v Speaker 2>a little bit, I'd say, because investor, because then obviously

0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.840
<v Speaker 2>they've made this huge push into renewable, right, and I

0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:05.760
<v Speaker 2>think investors are We're kind of questioning is that really,

0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:08.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, are the returns going to be there? And

0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:12.400
<v Speaker 2>is there really basically could you be using your capital

0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.960
<v Speaker 2>for for something else? And the article I'm referring to

0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:20.680
<v Speaker 2>is basically the I think it was a CEO and

0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:24.200
<v Speaker 2>I only read the you know, glance to it briefly,

0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:26.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, kind of maybe shifting away a little bit

0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:31.160
<v Speaker 2>from the UH from this ESG driven I guess i'll

0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:35.840
<v Speaker 2>call it investment agenda and more kind of focusing on

0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:39.680
<v Speaker 2>their bread and butter hydrocarbon business. So I thought that

0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:41.680
<v Speaker 2>I thought that was interesting just in terms because you

0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:45.520
<v Speaker 2>brought up the UH, the whole topic of returns on

0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:46.640
<v Speaker 2>some of these projects.

0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:48.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I certainly.

0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:49.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:51.640
<v Speaker 1>I saw the hit the Wire too yesterday, and I think,

0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:54.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's just interesting to watch it flex, right,

0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:58.080
<v Speaker 1>because it's someone like Excellent getting knocked over the years

0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:00.800
<v Speaker 1>for not doing enough, and now they seem to be

0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:06.840
<v Speaker 1>getting you know, positive feedback on having a more diverse

0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:10.480
<v Speaker 1>fight outlook on what they're what they're spending money on,

0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.520
<v Speaker 1>and a longer term vision on the transition.

0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:17.360
<v Speaker 2>That I mean, I we put out a we kind

0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.960
<v Speaker 2>of put out a takeaway or quick take after the

0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.120
<v Speaker 2>Excellent call, and I think, look, I mean they've done

0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:27.560
<v Speaker 2>They've done a decent job in terms of kind of

0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:33.040
<v Speaker 2>returning cash excuse me, returning cash to shareholders investing in

0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:37.440
<v Speaker 2>their traditional hydrocarbon business, but then also really focusing on

0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:40.000
<v Speaker 2>I forget what they I think it's called the Carbon

0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.600
<v Speaker 2>Solutions Group or something like that. Then really kind of

0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:47.240
<v Speaker 2>you're marking funds for that, right, so you kind of

0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:49.280
<v Speaker 2>have you have these different buckets and you kind of

0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:51.760
<v Speaker 2>have to address all of them. The other thing i'd

0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:55.320
<v Speaker 2>i'd say from a from a from an energy infrastructure

0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:59.320
<v Speaker 2>perspective that I think is gaining gaining some momentum here

0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:02.000
<v Speaker 2>is if you call it, call it twenty twenty twenty

0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:04.400
<v Speaker 2>twenty one, that was a period of time where these

0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:07.320
<v Speaker 2>companies really had to get obviously the depths of COVID

0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.960
<v Speaker 2>here had to get their balance sheets in order. You

0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:12.720
<v Speaker 2>know a lot of them, a lot of them cut

0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:16.520
<v Speaker 2>their cut their dividends. An investor, all the investors wanted

0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:18.600
<v Speaker 2>to see is really, you know, just give me the

0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:26.719
<v Speaker 2>money coming out of COVID, right, buyback stock, increase the dividend.

0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:31.000
<v Speaker 2>I think, now if we're kind of solving towards the

0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:34.320
<v Speaker 2>lowest come denominator here, right, and this is cash flow allocation,

0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:36.600
<v Speaker 2>I think there's something to be said here for a

0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:41.359
<v Speaker 2>company that had that has all that plus an interesting

0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.560
<v Speaker 2>kind of growth angle. Right, And I think this is

0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:48.720
<v Speaker 2>again where you know, so some of these some of

0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:54.360
<v Speaker 2>these legislative things or somebody you know call it renewable

0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:59.000
<v Speaker 2>natural gas, carbon sequestration, low carbon fuel standards. I think

0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:01.520
<v Speaker 2>if you have, if you have an angle on that,

0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:05.960
<v Speaker 2>I think that is something that certainly can be a

0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:12.320
<v Speaker 2>differentiating factor. When you're kind of telling your story.

0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:14.639
<v Speaker 1>So and picking up on that thread because I'm curious

0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:19.040
<v Speaker 1>your take from what you're hearing. I understand that most

0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:21.719
<v Speaker 1>most of the bigger guys are probably sitting there saying, well,

0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:24.040
<v Speaker 1>let's do a little of each. But where do you

0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:26.560
<v Speaker 1>see out of some of the things you mentioned the

0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:31.160
<v Speaker 1>sort of the policy driving the biggest push right now?

0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:36.359
<v Speaker 1>Is it carbon capture, is it hydrogen ammonia? Is it RNG?

0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:38.760
<v Speaker 1>Which one gets most attention?

0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:43.280
<v Speaker 2>Look, I think the one that gets a I mean

0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:48.000
<v Speaker 2>obviously hydrogen and ammonia. It depends on I mean that

0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:50.360
<v Speaker 2>also depends on who you talk to, right, I think

0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:56.720
<v Speaker 2>that one certainly is kind of getting in my opinion

0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:00.480
<v Speaker 2>even I mean, just go on social media, right, linked

0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.320
<v Speaker 2>and whatever, and if you're willing to look kind of

0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:07.840
<v Speaker 2>beyond your traditional energy audience, I think, just hydrogens always

0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:10.360
<v Speaker 2>in the headlines. Right, So, I think just from a

0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:14.280
<v Speaker 2>from an awareness perspective, I would kind of put those

0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:17.879
<v Speaker 2>those front and center. I'd say, from a you know,

0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:23.119
<v Speaker 2>from an investment opportunity right now, immediate from a you

0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:29.199
<v Speaker 2>know called an energy infrastructure company, that market probably at

0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:30.960
<v Speaker 2>least if I kind of look at the companies I'm

0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:35.360
<v Speaker 2>looking at, is probably a little bit further out right.

0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:37.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I mean that there's some I think that

0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:39.680
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the companies are still trying to figure

0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:44.160
<v Speaker 2>out what actually what actually happens to our pipeline when

0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:48.200
<v Speaker 2>we move hydrogen molecules through the through the pipeline, right,

0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.480
<v Speaker 2>Because it's it's obviously a tiny it's a tiny molecule,

0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.760
<v Speaker 2>and you know there's some potential integrity issues with that.

0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:59.720
<v Speaker 2>But certainly i'd say in the general media again that

0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.520
<v Speaker 2>hydrog pnemonia gets the most attention. I think in terms

0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:09.280
<v Speaker 2>of near term opportunity, i'd probably stack up renewable natural

0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:14.840
<v Speaker 2>gas is probably the one where there's the most kind

0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:18.280
<v Speaker 2>of near term opportunity. I preay threw in, you know,

0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:23.159
<v Speaker 2>call it renewable diesel in California. I throw it in

0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:27.720
<v Speaker 2>there as well. And obviously in terms of economic impact,

0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:31.560
<v Speaker 2>the other thing, I mean, the one that's that's really

0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:36.239
<v Speaker 2>interesting here is obviously carbon capture and sequestration. Right if

0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:39.719
<v Speaker 2>you kind of look at the tax credits or the

0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:43.360
<v Speaker 2>incremental I guess the incremental benefit coming out of the

0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:50.080
<v Speaker 2>Inflation Reduction Act. I think that certainly has increased economics

0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:54.040
<v Speaker 2>for for a lot of projects here, and I think

0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:58.239
<v Speaker 2>there certainly is companies pivoting towards that. Excellent made an

0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.760
<v Speaker 2>interesting comment on that the car hole carbon capture thing

0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:05.800
<v Speaker 2>in their in their earnings call here last week actually

0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:08.680
<v Speaker 2>this week. I'm sorry, I'm getting my getting my days confused,

0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:12.960
<v Speaker 2>and that was it's not you know, carbon capture is

0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:16.600
<v Speaker 2>not a game for startups, right, It's going to require

0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.320
<v Speaker 2>a ton of capital that you have to be willing

0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:24.560
<v Speaker 2>to put behind. Obviously, there is you know, there's still

0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:28.880
<v Speaker 2>is some regular some regulatory delays, right because you need

0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:31.160
<v Speaker 2>to in order to get the carbon in the ground,

0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:34.760
<v Speaker 2>you obviously need to have a Class six well permit,

0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:37.720
<v Speaker 2>and that right now is going through the e p A.

0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:42.239
<v Speaker 2>It's so, I obviously I've never filed one, but the

0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:43.679
<v Speaker 2>feed by the feedback from.

0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:47.600
<v Speaker 1>FOLCUS, you haven't filed, No, not yet.

0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:51.760
<v Speaker 2>It's a it's a it's a very onerous project. It

0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:55.680
<v Speaker 2>takes forever. And and so there's a couple of states

0:21:55.680 --> 0:22:00.840
<v Speaker 2>that have filed for what's it called privacy rights primacy, Yeah,

0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:03.439
<v Speaker 2>primacy And actually curious as to what your take is

0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:06.600
<v Speaker 2>on this. So so I think it's Texas is one

0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:08.760
<v Speaker 2>of them. Louisiana is the other one. There may be

0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:11.439
<v Speaker 2>a couple others. I don't know, but I think Louisiana

0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:15.520
<v Speaker 2>is a little bit further along than Texas. But I

0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:19.840
<v Speaker 2>actually don't know what that would do to the timeline

0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:22.639
<v Speaker 2>in terms of getting one of these walls wells approved.

0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:24.719
<v Speaker 2>Curious if you guys have looked at that.

0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:31.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you're you're you're speaking my language when you're talking primacy, I.

0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:35.000
<v Speaker 2>Know, right, I was like, what is that?

0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:38.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So it's interesting, right, because this is you know,

0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:41.920
<v Speaker 1>if you think about carbon captures being such a big

0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:47.160
<v Speaker 1>push as an opportunity for the government to meet industry

0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:49.880
<v Speaker 1>in a place where they maybe already are or could go,

0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:53.640
<v Speaker 1>they are dragging their feet. So EPA is the one

0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:56.720
<v Speaker 1>who gets to hand out like essentially, it's delegating authority

0:22:56.760 --> 0:22:59.000
<v Speaker 1>to a state to run a program. And all the

0:22:59.080 --> 0:23:02.800
<v Speaker 1>underground wells that you see like fracking, you know, a

0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:07.000
<v Speaker 1>Class two solid waste disposal, which we do a lot of.

0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:10.560
<v Speaker 1>I think that's class one. All these different classes of wells,

0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:15.520
<v Speaker 1>they are administered by the states because at one point

0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:18.640
<v Speaker 1>they applied to EPI. EPA said, you have the expertise here,

0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:22.879
<v Speaker 1>we agree, so you can do the permitting. So right now,

0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:25.680
<v Speaker 1>North Dakota and Wyoming are approved. They are the only

0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:31.680
<v Speaker 1>two states that are approved for carboncy questration wells permitting programs.

0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:37.000
<v Speaker 1>Louisiana has been pending for like over six hundred days,

0:23:37.880 --> 0:23:42.040
<v Speaker 1>and Texas, West Virginian, Arizona are all in the so

0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:46.119
<v Speaker 1>called pre application stage, which is just you know, government

0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:50.479
<v Speaker 1>regulatory speak for first stage of application. But you know

0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:53.240
<v Speaker 1>it took North Dakota eighteen hundred days to get approved,

0:23:53.400 --> 0:23:57.520
<v Speaker 1>so these are not moving quickly. And that I think,

0:23:57.880 --> 0:24:01.520
<v Speaker 1>as a separate conversation outside of the scope of this

0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:07.160
<v Speaker 1>podcast topic, I think discussing that is a looming problem

0:24:07.359 --> 0:24:10.480
<v Speaker 1>for all of these projects there now being you know,

0:24:10.520 --> 0:24:12.560
<v Speaker 1>people are rushing to throw money at them, but they

0:24:12.680 --> 0:24:16.240
<v Speaker 1>don't necessarily have these wells on a large scale basis

0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:17.480
<v Speaker 1>that can be permitted yet.

0:24:19.280 --> 0:24:22.240
<v Speaker 2>Got it? Yeah, And look, I think there certainly is

0:24:22.800 --> 0:24:26.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's a big opportunity set around it. And

0:24:26.240 --> 0:24:29.280
<v Speaker 2>just I mean if you're looking at CO two emissions, right,

0:24:29.359 --> 0:24:31.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean, let's look at some of these sources. I

0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:35.800
<v Speaker 2>think the coal industry obviously, and this is in the US, right,

0:24:36.040 --> 0:24:39.280
<v Speaker 2>the coal industry. I mean that is what the call it,

0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:42.959
<v Speaker 2>forty eight billion cubic feet a day or so, natural

0:24:43.040 --> 0:24:46.680
<v Speaker 2>gas power about thirty billion cubic feet a day or so,

0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:50.000
<v Speaker 2>then kind of drops off and you know, refineries nine,

0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:53.200
<v Speaker 2>men production four and then there's a bunch of others.

0:24:53.240 --> 0:24:56.879
<v Speaker 2>But obviously there is there's a big opportunity set and

0:24:57.040 --> 0:25:00.119
<v Speaker 2>I'd say you know it just in terms of of

0:25:00.880 --> 0:25:05.800
<v Speaker 2>CO two infrastructure, I think obviously if you do have

0:25:05.920 --> 0:25:09.280
<v Speaker 2>existing pipes, I think Kinder Morgan actually I want to

0:25:09.280 --> 0:25:12.600
<v Speaker 2>say it's the largest CO two pipe, But don't don't

0:25:12.680 --> 0:25:14.040
<v Speaker 2>quote me on that court.

0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:18.160
<v Speaker 1>I think we just quoted you on that.

0:25:16.320 --> 0:25:23.280
<v Speaker 2>I guess that's the that's the perils of the podcast, right,

0:25:23.320 --> 0:25:27.160
<v Speaker 2>I think that's I think that is the I think

0:25:27.160 --> 0:25:30.640
<v Speaker 2>that's the Cortes pipeline. I want to say. I think

0:25:30.640 --> 0:25:33.280
<v Speaker 2>that's one one point five billion cubic feet today and

0:25:33.320 --> 0:25:36.800
<v Speaker 2>I think they're flowing just about a billion cubic feet

0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:40.280
<v Speaker 2>a day of carbon out of I think it comes

0:25:40.280 --> 0:25:42.560
<v Speaker 2>out of Colorado and it goes down to the Permian

0:25:42.640 --> 0:25:45.280
<v Speaker 2>that you They use it obviously for their for their

0:25:45.359 --> 0:25:49.399
<v Speaker 2>CO two floods right now in the for their old business.

0:25:51.320 --> 0:25:55.000
<v Speaker 1>It's an interesting I think it's all fascinating, right because

0:25:55.040 --> 0:25:58.600
<v Speaker 1>the the way you think about like ament policy, like

0:25:59.240 --> 0:26:01.639
<v Speaker 1>there were already some kind of getting off the ground

0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:05.520
<v Speaker 1>here and there when the Q credits to the tax

0:26:05.600 --> 0:26:11.439
<v Speaker 1>credits supporting carboncy questration were we're at the lower end,

0:26:11.440 --> 0:26:13.439
<v Speaker 1>which I think was still like forty five dollars a

0:26:13.480 --> 0:26:14.080
<v Speaker 1>ton or something.

0:26:14.240 --> 0:26:15.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I think.

0:26:17.480 --> 0:26:19.719
<v Speaker 1>I think it's Yeah, I think it's even higher. It's

0:26:19.760 --> 0:26:24.879
<v Speaker 1>over one hundred. I'm almost positive, I think. And that's

0:26:25.000 --> 0:26:27.920
<v Speaker 1>that's the power of throwing money at something, right, is

0:26:27.960 --> 0:26:32.240
<v Speaker 1>because the Inflation Production Act, basically from my perspective in

0:26:32.320 --> 0:26:36.800
<v Speaker 1>DC seemed to surge projects and not and so suddenly

0:26:37.440 --> 0:26:39.639
<v Speaker 1>you got a bunch of baler g export terminals that

0:26:39.680 --> 0:26:43.040
<v Speaker 1>are trying to get off the ground, get approval, get

0:26:43.040 --> 0:26:48.560
<v Speaker 1>over that final hump with FURK the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission,

0:26:49.600 --> 0:26:51.679
<v Speaker 1>and the ones that were in a little bit of

0:26:51.680 --> 0:26:56.399
<v Speaker 1>trouble start adding carbon capture as a mitigation measure, because

0:26:57.440 --> 0:27:00.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, it helped kind of reset the balance for

0:27:00.960 --> 0:27:05.320
<v Speaker 1>them on the analysis of the cost benefits and looking

0:27:05.320 --> 0:27:08.680
<v Speaker 1>at like environmental justice for surrounding communities, whether they were

0:27:08.760 --> 0:27:15.400
<v Speaker 1>disproportionately impacting various communities that are disadvantaged and typically religie

0:27:15.440 --> 0:27:18.359
<v Speaker 1>that means not just really land use, but more like

0:27:18.440 --> 0:27:22.080
<v Speaker 1>potential emissions, and so having carbon capture there was a

0:27:22.160 --> 0:27:25.600
<v Speaker 1>huge add on. But not just that it's the potential

0:27:25.640 --> 0:27:28.040
<v Speaker 1>revenue generator now, which is kind of a wild thing

0:27:28.040 --> 0:27:28.639
<v Speaker 1>to think about.

0:27:29.080 --> 0:27:30.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I really agree with you, And actually you

0:27:31.280 --> 0:27:34.199
<v Speaker 2>brought up you brought up an interesting point here, and

0:27:34.400 --> 0:27:36.159
<v Speaker 2>just and I actually have a question for you on

0:27:36.240 --> 0:27:38.960
<v Speaker 2>this because you're the your de policy expert expert, not me,

0:27:39.800 --> 0:27:44.200
<v Speaker 2>but so obviously they're let's assume this the tax credit

0:27:44.240 --> 0:27:46.719
<v Speaker 2>is sticky. Right, So as a as you're kind of

0:27:46.800 --> 0:27:50.200
<v Speaker 2>looking as an energy infrastructure operator, you're kind of looking

0:27:50.200 --> 0:27:54.600
<v Speaker 2>at your call it your portfolio of you know where

0:27:54.640 --> 0:27:56.720
<v Speaker 2>you can because you only have a finite amount of money, right,

0:27:56.760 --> 0:28:02.200
<v Speaker 2>And I think obviously you know the whole renewable natural gas,

0:28:02.200 --> 0:28:04.960
<v Speaker 2>low carbon fuel standards, all that stuff. I mean, it's great, right,

0:28:05.040 --> 0:28:07.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean, just I'll give you an example here. Let's

0:28:07.840 --> 0:28:11.080
<v Speaker 2>look at renewable natural gas kind of demand markets. Right,

0:28:11.160 --> 0:28:13.960
<v Speaker 2>Let's look at a transport transportation market, right, so you're

0:28:14.000 --> 0:28:17.520
<v Speaker 2>selling let's call it gases. Actually, don't do not have

0:28:17.560 --> 0:28:21.399
<v Speaker 2>my bloom work up, which is funny on the Bloomberg podcast. Right,

0:28:21.760 --> 0:28:24.479
<v Speaker 2>let's say natural gas right now, is you call it

0:28:24.480 --> 0:28:29.359
<v Speaker 2>three three bucks, but you're adding obviously as you're selling that.

0:28:29.640 --> 0:28:32.040
<v Speaker 2>As you're selling that, you're getting the rint credit, right,

0:28:32.119 --> 0:28:35.520
<v Speaker 2>And that is the most relevant one here is probably

0:28:35.520 --> 0:28:38.880
<v Speaker 2>the D three rent. And again don't have my bloom

0:28:38.920 --> 0:28:41.280
<v Speaker 2>work up. You can look this up on Bloomberg. They

0:28:41.360 --> 0:28:44.920
<v Speaker 2>do have the WRINT pricing on there. I think last

0:28:44.920 --> 0:28:47.320
<v Speaker 2>time I checked it was close to call it twenty

0:28:47.320 --> 0:28:50.440
<v Speaker 2>seven dollars, right, So that turns a three dollars molecule

0:28:51.280 --> 0:28:55.400
<v Speaker 2>into a thirty dollars molecule. And that's interesting. However, I

0:28:55.440 --> 0:29:01.040
<v Speaker 2>mean WRINT prices obviously are can be extremely balad well, right,

0:29:01.120 --> 0:29:03.880
<v Speaker 2>so as you're kind of allocating, as as you're you know,

0:29:04.040 --> 0:29:07.360
<v Speaker 2>let's let's say an energy infrastructure company, you don't really

0:29:07.440 --> 0:29:11.360
<v Speaker 2>want that or you don't you don't love that variability

0:29:11.880 --> 0:29:15.040
<v Speaker 2>of cash flow, right, that volatile, I mean, because your

0:29:15.040 --> 0:29:18.600
<v Speaker 2>whole investment thesis had always been we have we have

0:29:18.680 --> 0:29:21.440
<v Speaker 2>city city cash flows. Now look, I mean the opportunity

0:29:21.520 --> 0:29:26.840
<v Speaker 2>set obviously is I mean, the returns you're getting on

0:29:26.880 --> 0:29:30.480
<v Speaker 2>that is is pretty impressive. So you'll you'll take the volatility.

0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:33.719
<v Speaker 2>But just in terms of more visibility, you probably have

0:29:33.760 --> 0:29:38.440
<v Speaker 2>more visibility on cash flow on something on the carbon

0:29:38.480 --> 0:29:40.200
<v Speaker 2>capture side. And this is this is where where the

0:29:40.280 --> 0:29:43.040
<v Speaker 2>question the question I had for you, do you think

0:29:43.080 --> 0:29:48.800
<v Speaker 2>there's ever any risk to those carbon credits, those tax

0:29:48.880 --> 0:29:52.000
<v Speaker 2>credits being being repealed or lower if they were changing

0:29:52.040 --> 0:29:53.880
<v Speaker 2>the administration or do you think once it's in there,

0:29:53.920 --> 0:29:54.560
<v Speaker 2>it's sticky.

0:29:55.520 --> 0:29:59.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean, the easy answer is, generally speaking, any quote

0:29:59.400 --> 0:30:03.080
<v Speaker 1>unquote entire is stuck. Right. Anything you give to somebody

0:30:03.200 --> 0:30:07.960
<v Speaker 1>and they feel entitled to it stays. I think I

0:30:08.000 --> 0:30:10.520
<v Speaker 1>think you can support that answer with a little more

0:30:11.040 --> 0:30:15.320
<v Speaker 1>analysis by saying that both sides can like this, right,

0:30:15.480 --> 0:30:18.840
<v Speaker 1>both sides of the aisle. Because you're supporting infrastructure development

0:30:18.880 --> 0:30:23.640
<v Speaker 1>and buildouts, you're giving energy projects another opportunity to do

0:30:24.280 --> 0:30:28.440
<v Speaker 1>either generate more revenue or go forward through the regulatory

0:30:28.440 --> 0:30:31.200
<v Speaker 1>process with a little more certainty. And then at the

0:30:31.200 --> 0:30:35.479
<v Speaker 1>same time you're trying to gradually push you it's technology forcing, right,

0:30:35.480 --> 0:30:39.960
<v Speaker 1>So you're forcing towards a greener fuel set, or you're

0:30:40.080 --> 0:30:44.080
<v Speaker 1>forcing towards better limitation of emissions in some way, And

0:30:44.120 --> 0:30:46.560
<v Speaker 1>so I think both sides can get behind it. It's

0:30:46.680 --> 0:30:50.120
<v Speaker 1>just the only people who might not like this over

0:30:50.160 --> 0:30:51.840
<v Speaker 1>time are the ones who are looking at and saying,

0:30:51.920 --> 0:30:57.680
<v Speaker 1>you're paying a pipeline, you know, eighty five dollars a

0:30:57.680 --> 0:31:02.040
<v Speaker 1>ton for twelve years guaranteed without taking into account what

0:31:02.120 --> 0:31:05.280
<v Speaker 1>they're making on the product that they're shipping. So that

0:31:05.520 --> 0:31:07.360
<v Speaker 1>feels like a lot of money. I mean, these are

0:31:07.560 --> 0:31:11.000
<v Speaker 1>clearly these are very capital intensive projects, so it's going

0:31:11.080 --> 0:31:13.080
<v Speaker 1>to be there's a high cost there, so you have

0:31:13.120 --> 0:31:17.200
<v Speaker 1>to offset that. And we probably wouldn't have had you know,

0:31:17.240 --> 0:31:21.040
<v Speaker 1>these Midwest pipelines popping up being proposed, but for these

0:31:21.080 --> 0:31:23.560
<v Speaker 1>credits out there, I mean, they just don't don't make

0:31:23.600 --> 0:31:25.920
<v Speaker 1>sense in the structure that they're built at it right now.

0:31:26.920 --> 0:31:31.680
<v Speaker 1>So so you definitely need that level of funding. But

0:31:32.160 --> 0:31:34.400
<v Speaker 1>I think, you know, I do think it's pretty low

0:31:34.480 --> 0:31:36.120
<v Speaker 1>risk that these disappear over time.

0:31:36.920 --> 0:31:39.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and going back to your earlier question kind of

0:31:39.920 --> 0:31:42.560
<v Speaker 2>where what do you think the biggest opportunity sets are,

0:31:42.680 --> 0:31:46.680
<v Speaker 2>So I'm actually going to you know, I do think

0:31:46.800 --> 0:31:49.640
<v Speaker 2>it's it's going to be carbon captured and sequestration, and

0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:54.440
<v Speaker 2>then also you know, further along hydrogen and pneumonia. And

0:31:54.440 --> 0:31:56.440
<v Speaker 2>then the reason I'm saying that because I just pulled

0:31:56.440 --> 0:31:59.240
<v Speaker 2>this up, I actually had this prepared before. If you

0:31:59.240 --> 0:32:01.400
<v Speaker 2>look at the renewable natural gas market, I mean, look,

0:32:01.520 --> 0:32:04.479
<v Speaker 2>it's it's a it's a good business, but let's call

0:32:04.560 --> 0:32:06.920
<v Speaker 2>let's call it. You know, dry gas production in the

0:32:07.000 --> 0:32:09.600
<v Speaker 2>US isn't as you know, I like round numbers called

0:32:09.640 --> 0:32:12.360
<v Speaker 2>one hundred cubic feet to day. So renewable natural gas

0:32:12.440 --> 0:32:16.960
<v Speaker 2>production is you know, it's a low single digit percentage

0:32:17.160 --> 0:32:18.960
<v Speaker 2>of that, so it's not huge. There's going to be

0:32:19.000 --> 0:32:21.520
<v Speaker 2>a lot of growth, but it's off a low base

0:32:21.840 --> 0:32:25.120
<v Speaker 2>and you know, well it gets uh you know, call

0:32:25.160 --> 0:32:27.360
<v Speaker 2>it five ten b's over the next decade or so

0:32:27.800 --> 0:32:30.880
<v Speaker 2>maybe who knows. And I think there is you know,

0:32:30.880 --> 0:32:33.360
<v Speaker 2>it's a nice supply source for someone who has access

0:32:33.400 --> 0:32:38.080
<v Speaker 2>to that because unlike shale, you have you know, there's

0:32:38.080 --> 0:32:40.120
<v Speaker 2>a lot of visibility just I mean you don't have

0:32:40.160 --> 0:32:42.760
<v Speaker 2>to keep I mean the garbage keeps coming in, right,

0:32:43.000 --> 0:32:47.240
<v Speaker 2>so and it's keep. Well, it's it's funny, right, it's

0:32:47.240 --> 0:32:50.440
<v Speaker 2>actually not not every landfill is a good landfill. You

0:32:50.440 --> 0:32:54.400
<v Speaker 2>you ideally want one that's in a high population area because

0:32:54.440 --> 0:32:57.640
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of there's a lot of organic matter

0:32:57.720 --> 0:33:00.440
<v Speaker 2>that gets thrown out obviously, you know, food scrapes and that.

0:33:00.640 --> 0:33:04.640
<v Speaker 2>You don't want landfill that has you know, rocks and

0:33:04.720 --> 0:33:08.960
<v Speaker 2>I call it whatever industrial stuff in there. And just

0:33:09.080 --> 0:33:13.120
<v Speaker 2>on that, I think there's about twenty five hundred landfills.

0:33:13.480 --> 0:33:16.680
<v Speaker 2>I'll throw some numbers at you in the US and

0:33:16.880 --> 0:33:22.560
<v Speaker 2>just for scope, I think thirteen percent of those of

0:33:22.640 --> 0:33:25.720
<v Speaker 2>that landfill gas right now is kind of converted into

0:33:25.800 --> 0:33:28.720
<v Speaker 2>renewable natural gas, and I think over half of these

0:33:28.800 --> 0:33:33.600
<v Speaker 2>landfills or just underhalf, don't even have the infrastructure. So

0:33:33.680 --> 0:33:36.920
<v Speaker 2>look that there certainly is capital. And it's not just landfills, right,

0:33:36.920 --> 0:33:40.160
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's dairy digestors and whatnot. There certainly are

0:33:40.280 --> 0:33:45.040
<v Speaker 2>capecs dollars that can be spent on that. But ultimately,

0:33:45.120 --> 0:33:49.120
<v Speaker 2>I think the big, the big dollars are really going

0:33:49.160 --> 0:33:52.240
<v Speaker 2>to be gravitating towards carbon capture and sequestration and then

0:33:52.280 --> 0:33:54.200
<v Speaker 2>again hydrogen pneumonia.

0:33:55.480 --> 0:33:58.920
<v Speaker 1>I gotta say, Tim, I'm impressed with your landfill preparation

0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:00.920
<v Speaker 1>for this podcast. I appreciate it.

0:34:01.000 --> 0:34:03.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so in the prior life, I used to cover

0:34:04.240 --> 0:34:06.880
<v Speaker 2>I used, I used to cover A. I used to

0:34:06.880 --> 0:34:11.840
<v Speaker 2>cover r KA ticker l f G or that was

0:34:11.880 --> 0:34:14.800
<v Speaker 2>the old ticker. We had some fun with that one.

0:34:15.200 --> 0:34:17.799
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, look, and then they obviously they recently got

0:34:17.840 --> 0:34:22.400
<v Speaker 2>acquired by by BP, so that that company is no

0:34:22.440 --> 0:34:25.640
<v Speaker 2>longer a stand alone but look at it. And then

0:34:25.680 --> 0:34:28.680
<v Speaker 2>obviously look Kinder Morgan made some acquisitions on the renewable

0:34:28.719 --> 0:34:32.120
<v Speaker 2>natural gas space. In the renewable natural gas space as well,

0:34:33.000 --> 0:34:37.440
<v Speaker 2>but it'll be interesting to kind of see what happens

0:34:38.400 --> 0:34:42.200
<v Speaker 2>with some of these private companies going forward, so.

0:34:42.280 --> 0:34:46.040
<v Speaker 1>Even though they got acquired, you'll always have landfills. That

0:34:46.120 --> 0:34:51.439
<v Speaker 1>was right, Well, that, I mean, I think that that's

0:34:51.440 --> 0:34:54.520
<v Speaker 1>a really good sort of look at some of the

0:34:54.520 --> 0:34:58.759
<v Speaker 1>opportunities that these policies are presenting. And I'm glad that

0:34:58.800 --> 0:35:02.480
<v Speaker 1>your email newsletter from Houston triggered that for this conversation

0:35:02.600 --> 0:35:04.840
<v Speaker 1>because it's it's it helps me think about it in

0:35:04.880 --> 0:35:08.040
<v Speaker 1>a different way as well. I'm wondering what your thoughts

0:35:08.040 --> 0:35:12.080
<v Speaker 1>are in terms of like policy risks, UH, specifically for

0:35:12.200 --> 0:35:16.480
<v Speaker 1>midstream and energy infrastructure generally, what do you think, at

0:35:16.560 --> 0:35:18.360
<v Speaker 1>least from what you're hearing or just you personally, what

0:35:18.360 --> 0:35:20.360
<v Speaker 1>do you think are some of the bigger policy risks

0:35:20.400 --> 0:35:22.920
<v Speaker 1>for the near term.

0:35:22.960 --> 0:35:25.880
<v Speaker 2>Sure, I mean, look, i'd say permitting, but I mean

0:35:25.920 --> 0:35:28.839
<v Speaker 2>it cann't really get much worse, so.

0:35:29.960 --> 0:35:33.040
<v Speaker 1>We would say maybe.

0:35:33.160 --> 0:35:36.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, but look, I think the interesting thing. The interesting

0:35:36.480 --> 0:35:40.640
<v Speaker 2>thing about that though, is it actually kind of in

0:35:40.760 --> 0:35:44.840
<v Speaker 2>a in a very funny manner, is somewhat valuable for

0:35:44.920 --> 0:35:48.600
<v Speaker 2>these companies because there's no you're not going to have competition,

0:35:48.719 --> 0:35:52.080
<v Speaker 2>right barring some obviously Permium pipeline. That stuff is you know,

0:35:52.120 --> 0:35:54.840
<v Speaker 2>it's intrast state, it's not interstate. But if you have

0:35:54.960 --> 0:35:59.000
<v Speaker 2>a big kind of trunk line natural gas pipeline network,

0:35:59.440 --> 0:36:00.919
<v Speaker 2>I mean, no one is going to come in there

0:36:01.239 --> 0:36:03.520
<v Speaker 2>and build a pipeline next to you, because you know

0:36:03.840 --> 0:36:07.319
<v Speaker 2>they'll they'll I mean, it's it's never going to get approved, right,

0:36:07.520 --> 0:36:10.920
<v Speaker 2>So so it's basically I mean the replacement value of

0:36:10.920 --> 0:36:13.800
<v Speaker 2>steeling the ground. I mean, it's actually a really interesting

0:36:13.840 --> 0:36:17.160
<v Speaker 2>topic because because those assets can't be replicated. But let's

0:36:17.160 --> 0:36:20.439
<v Speaker 2>just assume permitting is what it is. I mean, maybe

0:36:20.480 --> 0:36:22.719
<v Speaker 2>it gets worse, it definitely doesn't get better. I mean

0:36:23.440 --> 0:36:25.960
<v Speaker 2>just from a from a risk to cash flows. I mean,

0:36:26.160 --> 0:36:30.359
<v Speaker 2>i'd say, or just just across the entire energy kind

0:36:30.400 --> 0:36:33.840
<v Speaker 2>of value value chain, and I think any kind of

0:36:33.920 --> 0:36:39.600
<v Speaker 2>sort of export ben obviously wouldn't be obviously obviously wouldn't

0:36:39.600 --> 0:36:42.359
<v Speaker 2>be wouldn't be great. Now I don't I don't see that.

0:36:42.480 --> 0:36:45.759
<v Speaker 2>I don't see that happening. I mean, it does does

0:36:46.360 --> 0:36:50.600
<v Speaker 2>pop up every now and then, right then, and news media,

0:36:51.200 --> 0:36:54.200
<v Speaker 2>i'd say, you know that there there were some talking

0:36:54.320 --> 0:36:57.200
<v Speaker 2>points last year. I remember writing about this at my

0:36:57.320 --> 0:37:02.320
<v Speaker 2>former employer around you know, the tax structure, tax treatment

0:37:02.480 --> 0:37:08.400
<v Speaker 2>for for master limited partnerships specifically. But I haven't I

0:37:08.520 --> 0:37:12.720
<v Speaker 2>haven't followed it super closely since since since I left,

0:37:12.920 --> 0:37:19.759
<v Speaker 2>But I guess any sort of any sort of kind

0:37:19.760 --> 0:37:23.080
<v Speaker 2>of windfall tax which I look, I mean, we I

0:37:23.080 --> 0:37:26.920
<v Speaker 2>think I think that just went through in Europe, right,

0:37:26.960 --> 0:37:29.960
<v Speaker 2>And it's kind of it's actually it's funny because it

0:37:30.080 --> 0:37:34.239
<v Speaker 2>really is achieving the exact opposite of what you want, right.

0:37:34.280 --> 0:37:38.919
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you you want more production because you want

0:37:38.920 --> 0:37:41.799
<v Speaker 2>people to have reliable supply. You want people, you know,

0:37:42.239 --> 0:37:44.960
<v Speaker 2>be able to heat your homes and not have to

0:37:45.000 --> 0:37:47.600
<v Speaker 2>live paycheck to paycheck to do that. So I don't

0:37:47.600 --> 0:37:51.840
<v Speaker 2>think that's where that's going to happen in the US,

0:37:52.120 --> 0:37:56.360
<v Speaker 2>but obviously Europe your's a little different. But I'd say

0:37:58.719 --> 0:38:00.600
<v Speaker 2>I can probably noodle over a couple more about a

0:38:00.600 --> 0:38:02.360
<v Speaker 2>gun to my head. I think that's kind of what

0:38:03.320 --> 0:38:03.839
<v Speaker 2>popped up.

0:38:05.160 --> 0:38:07.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think I think that those are all probably

0:38:08.600 --> 0:38:13.200
<v Speaker 1>pretty relevant to discuss, because in one shape or other

0:38:13.400 --> 0:38:17.520
<v Speaker 1>over the last year, they've been discussed. Right. Traveloons get

0:38:17.520 --> 0:38:19.360
<v Speaker 1>floated in DC all the time just to kind of

0:38:19.480 --> 0:38:22.759
<v Speaker 1>see what initial polling looks like as a just a

0:38:22.800 --> 0:38:26.000
<v Speaker 1>measure of you know either is this something we want

0:38:26.040 --> 0:38:28.160
<v Speaker 1>to pursue, or can we use this as a as

0:38:28.200 --> 0:38:31.040
<v Speaker 1>a chip to talk about and go into, you know,

0:38:31.200 --> 0:38:33.839
<v Speaker 1>a more moderate direction, so we look like we're trying

0:38:33.840 --> 0:38:36.960
<v Speaker 1>to come to the table. That's a cynical view of DC,

0:38:37.120 --> 0:38:40.759
<v Speaker 1>which is probably the right one. But I don't, Yeah,

0:38:40.800 --> 0:38:42.600
<v Speaker 1>we agree. I don't think there's an export ban that

0:38:42.640 --> 0:38:46.839
<v Speaker 1>gets put on the table. The geopolitics, particularly with how

0:38:46.880 --> 0:38:51.200
<v Speaker 1>things are right now in Russia Ukraine. I don't think

0:38:51.239 --> 0:38:55.520
<v Speaker 1>the US can do anything to minimize exporting any of

0:38:55.560 --> 0:39:00.960
<v Speaker 1>their commodities. Just too many allies relying on it right now,

0:39:01.000 --> 0:39:03.960
<v Speaker 1>and pricing would go crazy. Obviously, you know that as

0:39:03.960 --> 0:39:07.080
<v Speaker 1>well as anybody. So I don't I don't see that

0:39:07.120 --> 0:39:11.759
<v Speaker 1>happening other than just sort of yelling. There's there's a

0:39:11.800 --> 0:39:13.319
<v Speaker 1>lot of yelling in DC, and I think that that

0:39:13.400 --> 0:39:15.640
<v Speaker 1>might be one of them, but that never comes to fruition.

0:39:16.320 --> 0:39:19.359
<v Speaker 1>Permitting is more interesting because we've had some proposals, right,

0:39:19.400 --> 0:39:24.040
<v Speaker 1>We've had some things thrown out there. Centator Mansion. It's

0:39:24.080 --> 0:39:27.840
<v Speaker 1>really what he wants to get done. But you know,

0:39:27.960 --> 0:39:32.479
<v Speaker 1>that's not been the way that the GOP leadership wants

0:39:32.480 --> 0:39:34.400
<v Speaker 1>to go because it wasn't done in it by bartererson

0:39:34.480 --> 0:39:37.440
<v Speaker 1>manor now there's some news out I think even just

0:39:37.480 --> 0:39:42.880
<v Speaker 1>today on Bloomberg about rumors around permitting reform and is

0:39:42.920 --> 0:39:45.120
<v Speaker 1>it back, does it come back? You know, we think

0:39:45.160 --> 0:39:46.600
<v Speaker 1>the only way it gets done is if the GOP

0:39:46.800 --> 0:39:51.480
<v Speaker 1>leads and mansion gets behind it. The problem really, I

0:39:51.520 --> 0:39:55.320
<v Speaker 1>think for midstream and ellen g which is really I

0:39:55.400 --> 0:40:00.279
<v Speaker 1>think probably the two key pieces of infrastructure type that

0:40:00.320 --> 0:40:03.280
<v Speaker 1>we think about when we think about permitting issues. Although

0:40:03.280 --> 0:40:06.080
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure others would feel the same way in the

0:40:06.560 --> 0:40:10.279
<v Speaker 1>chemical space. But the problem is for them is that

0:40:10.360 --> 0:40:12.680
<v Speaker 1>the reforms that are being proposed are really just in

0:40:12.719 --> 0:40:15.239
<v Speaker 1>the margins. They don't get at the issue, which is

0:40:15.239 --> 0:40:19.880
<v Speaker 1>that the underlying statutes problematic. It's the environmental reviews have expanded,

0:40:19.920 --> 0:40:24.560
<v Speaker 1>They've doubled the time over the period of like four years,

0:40:25.320 --> 0:40:31.560
<v Speaker 1>and so it's an interesting time I think for energy permitting,

0:40:31.600 --> 0:40:35.560
<v Speaker 1>particularly midstream, because that permitting reform won't do much. But

0:40:35.640 --> 0:40:38.520
<v Speaker 1>on the other hand, Furcus right now is that two

0:40:38.520 --> 0:40:41.200
<v Speaker 1>to two in a split. They're supposed to be five

0:40:41.200 --> 0:40:46.319
<v Speaker 1>commissioners generally, and we're at two two because one his

0:40:46.480 --> 0:40:49.759
<v Speaker 1>term is up and there hasn't been somebody reappointed yet

0:40:50.880 --> 0:40:56.640
<v Speaker 1>and the current chairman Commissioner Phillips is pretty moderate and

0:40:57.120 --> 0:41:00.560
<v Speaker 1>seems to our opinion is that this will move some

0:41:00.640 --> 0:41:04.960
<v Speaker 1>projects along faster in this period than we've seen in

0:41:04.960 --> 0:41:08.400
<v Speaker 1>the last four years. And so those projects that are

0:41:08.400 --> 0:41:11.200
<v Speaker 1>in sort of the intermittent stage where they're waiting on

0:41:11.320 --> 0:41:15.000
<v Speaker 1>approval but have already applied, like I think Williams, like

0:41:15.040 --> 0:41:19.440
<v Speaker 1>their regional energy access project that's a big deal for Transco,

0:41:19.760 --> 0:41:24.080
<v Speaker 1>that one just got its certificate in January. I think

0:41:24.120 --> 0:41:26.560
<v Speaker 1>we're going to see that kind of movement at least

0:41:26.600 --> 0:41:28.960
<v Speaker 1>in the next six months, just because of the way

0:41:28.960 --> 0:41:32.480
<v Speaker 1>FERGUS is set up. And then once potentially once we

0:41:32.520 --> 0:41:35.200
<v Speaker 1>get past six months, we'll see a full compliment and

0:41:35.200 --> 0:41:38.600
<v Speaker 1>then firks, you know, dynamic shift again. Who knows, but

0:41:39.040 --> 0:41:41.239
<v Speaker 1>it's sort of a it's the first time we've seen

0:41:41.320 --> 0:41:44.120
<v Speaker 1>some optimism in the space on the regulatory side. But

0:41:44.239 --> 0:41:50.240
<v Speaker 1>I think overall the package of obstacles that these projects

0:41:50.280 --> 0:41:52.320
<v Speaker 1>face is still pretty robust.

0:41:52.520 --> 0:41:54.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, it's funny. It just made me think,

0:41:54.760 --> 0:41:58.520
<v Speaker 2>I think the first time you and I when I

0:41:58.560 --> 0:42:00.680
<v Speaker 2>hosted dinner. This is back when I was at is

0:42:00.960 --> 0:42:03.879
<v Speaker 2>I or at Evercore now I should say I think

0:42:03.880 --> 0:42:07.040
<v Speaker 2>it was on MVP. Oh yeah, that was what that was?

0:42:07.080 --> 0:42:10.680
<v Speaker 2>What that was twenty sixteen or so. And uh, I

0:42:10.680 --> 0:42:14.120
<v Speaker 2>don't know how many subsequent calls we had and dinners

0:42:13.840 --> 0:42:17.160
<v Speaker 2>on on MVP, but I feel like that as uh,

0:42:17.480 --> 0:42:21.160
<v Speaker 2>that is certainly case in point for for for what

0:42:21.239 --> 0:42:24.160
<v Speaker 2>happens to one of those pipe for one of those projects.

0:42:24.640 --> 0:42:26.520
<v Speaker 1>And you know that that, I mean, you know, MVP

0:42:26.719 --> 0:42:29.680
<v Speaker 1>is looking at whatever permitting reforms out. They're just hoping

0:42:29.680 --> 0:42:31.919
<v Speaker 1>that they get named again because they've been the only

0:42:31.960 --> 0:42:34.680
<v Speaker 1>one who's potentially been talked about as a carve out.

0:42:35.920 --> 0:42:38.680
<v Speaker 1>They would love that because they're in they're in just

0:42:38.719 --> 0:42:41.160
<v Speaker 1>a whiplash between the agencies and the courts right now.

0:42:41.200 --> 0:42:46.560
<v Speaker 1>That keeps going. But that is another podcast idea. We're

0:42:46.560 --> 0:42:48.120
<v Speaker 1>just coming up with pearls here, Tim.

0:42:48.200 --> 0:42:52.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know right. Well, look I said, do the

0:42:52.080 --> 0:42:57.000
<v Speaker 2>other thing that I forgot to mention, Uh that that's

0:42:57.040 --> 0:43:00.279
<v Speaker 2>interesting and I have I will covet I do a

0:43:00.320 --> 0:43:03.719
<v Speaker 2>little bit more work on this and kind of see

0:43:03.719 --> 0:43:07.759
<v Speaker 2>what the actual economic impact could be for for these companies,

0:43:07.880 --> 0:43:11.799
<v Speaker 2>right or kind of whoever is touching us as this

0:43:11.880 --> 0:43:15.560
<v Speaker 2>whole idea of an URN right and that's obviously that

0:43:15.600 --> 0:43:17.319
<v Speaker 2>came out of the ep eight. It just kind of

0:43:17.320 --> 0:43:22.879
<v Speaker 2>issued their renewable fuel renewable volume obligations for the next

0:43:22.880 --> 0:43:26.000
<v Speaker 2>three years. And that what an URN is. It's basically

0:43:26.080 --> 0:43:32.919
<v Speaker 2>you're selling renewable natural gas RNG basically in the power market, right,

0:43:32.960 --> 0:43:35.040
<v Speaker 2>and that that is then going to be used to

0:43:35.239 --> 0:43:37.520
<v Speaker 2>charge electric cars. So it's kind of, you know, it

0:43:37.600 --> 0:43:41.800
<v Speaker 2>kind of fits that whole called it renewable renewable energy

0:43:42.560 --> 0:43:46.200
<v Speaker 2>value chain, I think, and you probably know this better

0:43:46.239 --> 0:43:50.280
<v Speaker 2>than me. I don't think the regulations are finalized yet.

0:43:50.360 --> 0:43:53.960
<v Speaker 2>I think they should be mid year, but that could

0:43:54.000 --> 0:43:57.399
<v Speaker 2>be I mean, that could be another I guess I'll

0:43:57.400 --> 0:44:00.279
<v Speaker 2>call it shot of a shot of adrenaline for the

0:44:00.320 --> 0:44:04.279
<v Speaker 2>renewable natural gas market for lack of a better term.

0:44:04.640 --> 0:44:07.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, which is it's an interesting time for EPA and

0:44:07.680 --> 0:44:11.680
<v Speaker 1>the RID market, right because they had to revisit the program,

0:44:11.760 --> 0:44:16.600
<v Speaker 1>which sort of statutory expired in twenty two. Just to

0:44:16.600 --> 0:44:18.400
<v Speaker 1>put a fine point on that. Yeah, that rule is

0:44:18.400 --> 0:44:20.600
<v Speaker 1>supposed to be finalized by June fourteenth of this year.

0:44:21.320 --> 0:44:25.480
<v Speaker 1>Comment period ends February tenth, so depending on the volume

0:44:25.480 --> 0:44:28.800
<v Speaker 1>of comments that that rule could take a little bit longer,

0:44:28.840 --> 0:44:31.960
<v Speaker 1>but you know, mid mid year, start looking for it.

0:44:32.760 --> 0:44:36.439
<v Speaker 1>That's a good that's a good spot. I think tim

0:44:36.480 --> 0:44:41.440
<v Speaker 1>to cover us for the substance a portion we're you know,

0:44:41.440 --> 0:44:43.960
<v Speaker 1>we have a long history of this. Now our second

0:44:43.960 --> 0:44:49.480
<v Speaker 1>episode of finishing with an off topic question here. I

0:44:49.520 --> 0:44:54.680
<v Speaker 1>think the last one my colleagues asked Mick mulvaney what

0:44:54.960 --> 0:44:57.640
<v Speaker 1>album three albums he would use on a need to

0:44:57.680 --> 0:44:59.919
<v Speaker 1>have with him on a desert island. I would ask

0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:02.920
<v Speaker 1>you something slightly different, which is, if you were stuck

0:45:02.960 --> 0:45:07.480
<v Speaker 1>on a desert island, heaven forbid, would you want a

0:45:07.560 --> 0:45:10.319
<v Speaker 1>movie with you? One single movie? What would you want

0:45:10.360 --> 0:45:12.879
<v Speaker 1>an album? Oh?

0:45:13.520 --> 0:45:16.080
<v Speaker 2>That is a that is a good.

0:45:15.920 --> 0:45:19.480
<v Speaker 1>Question, is it? Is it a good question?

0:45:20.640 --> 0:45:24.000
<v Speaker 2>Well? I mean I would. I would have to say,

0:45:25.160 --> 0:45:28.919
<v Speaker 2>it's it's gotta be a movie. Okay, it's gotta be movie.

0:45:28.920 --> 0:45:31.360
<v Speaker 2>And I bet your follow up is going to be

0:45:31.400 --> 0:45:32.120
<v Speaker 2>what movie?

0:45:32.840 --> 0:45:34.399
<v Speaker 1>Well, we can't leave our listeners hang.

0:45:35.440 --> 0:45:40.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, look, I like eighties movies. I would

0:45:40.880 --> 0:45:44.879
<v Speaker 2>probably I would have to bring it's gotta be it's

0:45:44.880 --> 0:45:49.160
<v Speaker 2>gotta be something with Chevy Chase and I got gonna

0:45:50.080 --> 0:45:51.440
<v Speaker 2>it's I got I'm gonna.

0:45:51.200 --> 0:45:53.960
<v Speaker 1>Bring Caddy Shack that's a great answer.

0:45:54.000 --> 0:45:57.080
<v Speaker 2>Actually, you know, either either caddy Shack or Fletch.

0:45:57.400 --> 0:46:01.040
<v Speaker 1>One of those two also a good answer. I think

0:46:01.080 --> 0:46:02.960
<v Speaker 1>Caddyshack has a better soundtrack.

0:46:04.200 --> 0:46:07.120
<v Speaker 2>Maybe there's some journey in there, and there's Yeah. So

0:46:07.400 --> 0:46:08.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm getting two for one.

0:46:08.960 --> 0:46:12.600
<v Speaker 1>You get Loggins, which we know is all about the

0:46:12.680 --> 0:46:16.719
<v Speaker 1>danger zone. All right, well we'll close it out there.

0:46:16.800 --> 0:46:19.759
<v Speaker 1>That's our second episode of Boats and Verdicts. I want

0:46:19.760 --> 0:46:21.600
<v Speaker 1>to thank our guest Tim Scheider for taking the time

0:46:21.640 --> 0:46:24.080
<v Speaker 1>to join us. It was interesting, it was not provoking.

0:46:24.160 --> 0:46:27.759
<v Speaker 1>We had some chuckles. I wouldn't call them laughs, but

0:46:27.840 --> 0:46:31.760
<v Speaker 1>certainly we got into it on energy business litigation regulation policy,

0:46:32.320 --> 0:46:34.680
<v Speaker 1>which is my favorite place to be. So please join

0:46:34.760 --> 0:46:35.279
<v Speaker 1>us next time.