1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 2 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to The Money Stuff Podcast, your weekly 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 2: podcast where we talk about stuff related to money. I'm 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 2: Matt Levine and I write the Money Stuff column for 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 2: Bloomberg Opinion. 6 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 1: And I'm Katie Greifeld, a reporter for Bloomberg News and 7 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: an anchor for Bloomberg Television. 8 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 2: What are you talking about, Katie, Well. 9 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: First of all, I think we should acknowledge that it's 10 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 1: Halloween and we are both phoning it in right. 11 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 2: Now in the literal sense and the. 12 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's at home. I'm at my parents'. 13 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 2: House, but. 14 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: Just sitting here, none of our listeners would see it. 15 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: But we could have just lied. 16 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 3: I guess. 17 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 2: I took my daughter to get bagels today at like 18 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: six am, and she was wearing her costume, which is 19 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 2: She's Wednesday from the TV show. And she was like, 20 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 2: a weird that I'm wearing my costume this early. It 21 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 2: is like dark out and this guy watched by in 22 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 2: awere as well the costume. I was like, no, that 23 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 2: guy is too perfect perfect. 24 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: It's weirder if people weren't wearing their costumes. I meant 25 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: to bring Caddis to the office, but I've forgotten, but 26 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: on television previous probably no. 27 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 2: You like you were like should I wear these on 28 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 2: television and Halloween? And I was like yes, And then 29 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 2: you didn't do it. 30 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: I almost certainly did not actually do that, but I 31 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: always slip in a lot of Halloween puns. I talk 32 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: about a monster rally, a spooky setup for stocks, things 33 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: like that. If you listen to all two hours of 34 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: the show, I'm sure it was overwhelming. 35 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 2: Well, I hope you'll continue that during the. 36 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking of overwhelming, what we're talking about today, we're 37 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: going to talk about speaking of spooky things, We're going 38 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: to talk about hollymarket and what's going on in prodiction markets. 39 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:58,559 Speaker 2: Something spooky. 40 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. We're going to talk about tax 41 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: aware long short strategies, Matt, you're going to explain that 42 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: to me, and then we are also going to talk 43 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: about super Micro and Ernst and Young Okay, cool jumping 44 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: into the first one poly market. This was a fun 45 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: one and I don't think you've written about this. I 46 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: feel like I had to really twist your arm to 47 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 1: talk about this today. 48 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, you like texted me should we talk about probably 49 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 2: my kind? I was like no, and then you like 50 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 2: kept texting me until I got mad, and then I 51 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: was like, well, I'm mad enough about this, so you 52 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 2: can talk about it. 53 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I was like, this is the seeds for 54 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: a great discussion, given that at seven thirty in the 55 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: morning and we're so passionate. So poly Market, it's not 56 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: based in the US. US investors or betters can't. 57 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 2: Okay, it's not based in the US. It's not based 58 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: in the US. 59 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. So the big news was basically that there was 60 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: one person who was pushing up the Trump odds. His username, 61 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: I assume it's a man, was Freddy nine, nine hundred 62 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: and ninety nine, and Polymarket's investigation found it. I don't know, 63 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: he spent like forty five million dollars and just pushed 64 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: up Trump's odds. But it seems like financial markets question 65 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: Mark ran with that. 66 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 2: Yeah. There's also news today where like some like bly 67 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: Chain Analysis Company was like a third of trades on 68 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: polymarket or wash Trades. 69 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: M Yeah, I did see that. 70 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 2: Actually, So I don't know why is this interesting? 71 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: So the reason I wanted to talk about this is 72 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: because so I am on television every day for two 73 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: hours and there's been this weird vibe shift in the 74 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: markets and among investors and analysts talking about Trump's odds 75 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: going up even though polls have been fifty to fifty. 76 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: Basically since Kamala entered the race, you have seen a 77 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: Trump trade, at least that's what people have been calling it. 78 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: Unfolded markets. You've seen long end treasury yields kind of skyrocket, 79 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: and the US dollar has had a great month, And 80 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: there's disagreement. Some people say it's just the fact that 81 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: economic data has been really strong. Other people say this 82 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: is because Trump's odds have been going up in the 83 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: prediction markets. So I find that interesting because the polymarket 84 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: experience has revealed that, you know, what we're looking at 85 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 1: is sort of real time chances of which candidates is 86 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: going to win the election. It can be swayed pretty easily. 87 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: I mean, forty five million dollars is certainly not nothing, 88 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: but it's certainly not a lot of money. 89 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 2: So all these stories about polymarket being easy to make 90 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 2: it just feel to me like wishful thinking in a 91 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 2: couple of ways. And like I sympathize because I share 92 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 2: the wishes, but like, I just don't think I share 93 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 2: the thinking. Many people would rather not think that Trump 94 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 2: has a sixty seven percent chance of winning, and if 95 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 2: they could say, no, no, this is fake, it's really 96 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: fifty eight percent or fifty percent, then that would make 97 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 2: them happier, which I don't really understand because like you'll 98 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 2: never know like what the a priori odds were, and 99 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 2: in a week you'll know what happened. So it's like 100 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 2: being like, oh, this market is fake, it just doesn't 101 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 2: really do anything for it. But then the other thing 102 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 2: is like polymarket is a very crypto based prediction market. 103 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 2: By the way, like all of the other like non 104 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 2: crypto markets have kind of followed polymarkets odds. But anyway, 105 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 2: and like people love the idea that crypto markets are 106 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 2: being manipulated and are full of wash trading. There's a 107 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 2: lot of wash trading and crypto markets. But if you 108 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 2: thought polymarket is like a little bit more Trump skewed 109 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 2: because it's crypto people and crypto people are more Trump scued, 110 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 2: like that makes sense, you know, Like if you think 111 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 2: that like polymarkets prices are too high, you have to 112 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 2: do something about that, which means going to trade on polymarket, 113 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 2: and like you know that's kind of a pain. You 114 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 2: have to like go buy some crypto you have to 115 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 2: pretend to not be based in the US, and so like, yeah, 116 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: it was like some hurdles to jump through, and it's 117 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 2: possible that the people who want to bet on Kamala 118 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 2: Harris wouldn't want to go through those steps. But this 119 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 2: notion that you're gonna like find a secret trick that 120 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 2: actually polymarket is fake, Yeah, it doesn't really do anything 121 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 2: for me. No one's found that secret trick. The other 122 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: thing I say is like, you're like, people are making 123 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 2: enormous bets in the treasury market based on like their 124 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: assessment of Trump's odds. It's not like treasury traders are 125 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 2: idiotically following polymarket. 126 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 1: No. 127 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 2: No, the follow on trades in like real financial markets 128 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 2: are confirmatory, right, They're not like, oh, like polymarket has 129 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 2: tricked everyone. It's like whatever, you know, the vibes are 130 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 2: that have shifted on polymarket have shifted in like broader 131 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 2: markets as well, And so that gives your reason to 132 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 2: believe that the polymarket odds are correct, not in the 133 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 2: sense of like right, correct about reality, but in the 134 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 2: sense of like correct about reflecting sort of like roughly 135 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 2: the market's view of the probabilities. 136 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, So a couple of points there to your point 137 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: about like, how does this compare with other prediction markets. 138 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: You look at Predicted for example, which you know that's 139 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: been around for longer than polymarket. At least in my consciousness, 140 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: odds of Trump winning were sixty percent at least at 141 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: one point this week, So that's not too out of 142 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: line with what poly market is showing right now on Halloween, 143 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: showing like fifty five percent. But I think I don't know, 144 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: there's like a chicken in the egg thing here, which 145 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: is is poly market reflecting and like tracking the odds 146 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: in the broader market, or is the broader market I'm 147 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: talking about the treasury market following poly market to that 148 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: latter scenario. I mean, you do have part of the 149 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: cell side community actually taking polymarket into account. JP Morgan 150 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: has these baskets, these long short baskets that are sort 151 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: of putting together stocks that are expected to rise in 152 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: whatever outcome, and part of that model looks at moves 153 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: that align with poly market probabilities. So I mean, people 154 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: in the actual real markets are using polymarket as a tool. 155 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: So I think that's interesting. I'm not even saying like 156 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: polymarkets being manipulated I'm just saying, like it would be 157 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,119 Speaker 1: easy to affect pricing, Yeah, I guess. 158 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: But if you're saying, like everyone in like the real 159 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 2: markets is paying a lot of attention to polymarket prices 160 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: and they're easy to manipulate, like that suggests they're easy 161 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 2: to manipulate on both sides, right, Like, if you want 162 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 2: to be like long treasuries, you can go tue some 163 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 2: polymarket contracts and move the market significantly, right if, like, 164 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 2: if the story here is true that like real investors 165 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 2: are sort of reflexively pricing based on polymarket ods and 166 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 2: that polymarket odds are relatively easy to manipulate, which I 167 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 2: just like, I don't really believe you other of those 168 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 2: stories entirely. I don't know. 169 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: It is kind of a fun thought experiment, though, The thought. 170 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 2: Experiment that I love is like, so I never mind treasuries. 171 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 2: The stock of DJT Trump media is kind of a 172 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 2: proxy for Trump's odds of winning and like kind of 173 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 2: a bigger one than the polymarket markets, and so like, 174 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 2: people constantly email me like, could you make money by 175 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 2: manipulating polymarket ods and then selling DJT on the back 176 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 2: of that? And I don't know the answer, but like 177 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 2: that's a fun little trade. Like DJT is such a 178 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 2: stranger proxy for Trump's odds than the poly market. Yeah, 179 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 2: markets are, and definitely one where there is like real 180 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 2: money to be made. 181 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: DJT has been frustrating to talk about on air because 182 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: every morning I go to like my most function on 183 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg terminal, this is at like six point thirty 184 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: in the morning, and I look at what the biggest 185 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: moves are. It's been DJT this week, obviously, and then 186 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: I look at the biggest volume and it's also DJT. 187 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: So it's not even that it's just a couple Yahoo's 188 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: trading DJT. Like there is serious turnover in DJT, which 189 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: is pretty wild. 190 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a good way to express an opinion 191 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 2: on his election, which is weird because polymarket is a 192 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 2: way to express an opinion on his election outcomes, because 193 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 2: like there's a contract that pays off zero one depending 194 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: on whether he wands they elects. DJT is nothing like that, 195 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 2: and yet it sort of functions as that, which is, 196 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: you know itself a fascinating fact about modern financial markets, 197 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 2: Like why is dj T a referendum in elections? It 198 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:12,239 Speaker 2: seems like it should. 199 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 3: Be, so it is it has Trump been the name, 200 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 3: you know? 201 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: And Trump is running for president, So I don't think 202 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: it's like I mean. 203 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 2: Look, if he wins, I don't do that if he loses, right, 204 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 2: So like it's a correct thesis. It's just like why. 205 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:24,119 Speaker 3: Yeah. 206 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: We had Nick Colas from Data Trek on TV this 207 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: week and one of the things that he emailed over 208 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: to the team was on the topic of offshore gambling odds. 209 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 1: He said that everyone thinks this is an untainted prediction market. Maybe, 210 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: but these odds are also affecting financial markets. You look 211 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:44,839 Speaker 1: at the peso, you look at bank stocks, you look 212 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: at yields. Could savvy traders move the gambling odds and 213 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: trade financial assets for profit just like we're talking about. 214 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: You could spend forty five million dollars to move Trump's 215 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: odds and then also pair that with a short on 216 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: like ten your treasuries. That could have been interesting like 217 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: three weeks ago. And maybe that's what that French national 218 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: was doing. I don't know. 219 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 2: I hope that's true. One thing about this, like this 220 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 2: market is easy to manipulate. Argument is like that's true 221 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 2: on both sides, right, Like, obviously get a lot about 222 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 2: this with liboard manipulation. Like with liboard manipulation, you could 223 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 2: just like make up a number and that would affect 224 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 2: the value of like trillions of dollars of terrifatives. And 225 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 2: so people just make up a number because they were 226 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 2: like long these drives, they want them to go up, 227 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 2: and so they would like make up a high number. 228 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 2: And empirically it turned out that people were doing the 229 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 2: same thing on the other side, and so like library 230 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 2: was like kind of made up, but it's also kind 231 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 2: of accurate because like everyone was doing the same thing 232 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 2: and they're trying to manipulate the market on both sides. 233 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 2: There's a little of that here too, where it's like 234 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: you could buy a million dollars or Trump contracts and 235 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 2: like sell a billion dollars of treasuries and make some money. 236 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 2: Like maybe that doesn't tell you which way that bet 237 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 2: is being made, and it could easily be made both ways. Right, 238 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 2: It's not like the like real financial markets are moving 239 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 2: like that dramatically in response to a five percent shift 240 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 2: in the polymarket. Ods, maybe that trade is worth it, 241 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 2: but it seems like a risky trade to do well. 242 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: We'll find out in a couple of days or we will. 243 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 2: We'll never know the correct odds, but we'll know the outcome. 244 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll know how close to reality the polymarket odds 245 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: were depending on how they shift in the next couple 246 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: of days. 247 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 2: I guess I don't think we'll ever know how close 248 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 2: to reality they were. Like either the winner, he won't, 249 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: but at no point, well, we know that he was 250 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 2: like sixty five ercent likely to win. Yeah, the market 251 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 2: will resolve to one. 252 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 3: Zero taxes, taxes. 253 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: I need you to just explain this to me. I've 254 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: read it, I've listened to it, and I feel like 255 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: I still am not grasping it. Yes, Robot told me 256 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: all about it. 257 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 2: The two is that you get to decide for the 258 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,719 Speaker 2: most part when you get taxable gains or losses. Right, So, 259 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 2: if you have stock and it goes up, you just 260 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 2: hold onto it and like you wait and eventually, twenty 261 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 2: years from now you sell the stock and then you 262 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 2: pay taxes on the gains. Or by the way, one 263 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 2: hundred years from now, you die and it passes on 264 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 2: to your airs and they never pay taxes on the 265 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 2: gains because of like basis. Step up, right, if you 266 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 2: have stocks that go down, you sell them right now, 267 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 2: and you have a taxable loss or capital loss, and 268 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 2: that can be used to offset capital gains elsewhere in 269 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 2: your portfolio. So if you're like you have capital gains, 270 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: you also have some stocks that have gone down. You 271 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 2: sell the stocks that have gone down and use them 272 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 2: to offset your gains. Obviously, you'd rather buy stocks that 273 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 2: go up right and not have any taxable losses, but like, 274 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 2: sometimes you want taxable losses because like, you have gains elsewhere, 275 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 2: and you would prefer not to pay taxes on them, 276 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 2: but you don't want to just like lose money for 277 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 2: no reason. And the conceptual trick is conceptually it's so 278 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 2: you have hundred dollars, right, you go long like five 279 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 2: hundred dollars of the S and P, and you go 280 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 2: short like four hundred dollars of the S and P. 281 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 2: So your net exposure is one hundred dollars, right, So 282 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 2: it's like you've made the investment you wanted to make, 283 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 2: but now you're long a lot and short a lot 284 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 2: to offset it. But you're you know, you're still that long. 285 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 2: And then either of the market goes up or down. 286 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 2: If it goes up, you make money on your five 287 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 2: hundre dollars long and you lose money on your four 288 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 2: hundred dollars short, and then what you do is nothing 289 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 2: with your long. You just keep it on so you 290 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 2: don't penny taxes on the gains. And you close out 291 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 2: your short and you get a big tax loss on 292 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 2: your short and you can use that to offset your 293 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 2: gains elsewhere. And then you put on another four hundred 294 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 2: dollars short and you do it again. And so every 295 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 2: year you can like generate tax losses without any real 296 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 2: economic losses because your long your short positions are offsetting 297 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: each other. Right, So like net you're just long one 298 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 2: hundred dollars of stock, but you have losses every year. 299 00:14:55,360 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 2: Did you go away? So, Katie, I just explained taxiware 300 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: long short in a beautiful way. That crashed your internet. Yeah, 301 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 2: cause you to go lie down for a while. 302 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: It's too bad that I didn't hear that, because that 303 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: explanation was something that I needed. 304 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 2: In brief, you buy like two hundred dollars of the 305 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 2: S and P. You're short one hundred dollars the SMP 306 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 2: met your longe hundred dollars the SMP. But no matter 307 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 2: what happens, you have tax losses. You realize the tax 308 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 2: losses each year and you use them to offset your 309 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 2: gains elsewhere in the portfolio, like if you've sold the 310 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 2: business or whatever, and then you go put on the 311 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 2: short again and you do it all over again. That's 312 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 2: like conceptually the trade, but in reality that's not the 313 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 2: trade at all, because you're not really just allowed to 314 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 2: do that. You're not allowed to just buy a thing 315 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 2: and go short the same thing and take the losses 316 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 2: and not take the games. Those are called like the 317 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 2: straddle rules and the wash sale rules, and so the 318 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 2: trick is to do this in a way where you're 319 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 2: not long and short the same thing, and also where 320 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 2: when you close out the position and then you go 321 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 2: put on the position again, you're putting on different positions. 322 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 2: So like you know, if you have like some losses, 323 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 2: you sell those stocks and you buy different stocks so 324 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 2: that you continue to have the same exposure, but you 325 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 2: can realize your losses on the stuff that you got 326 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 2: rid of. That's where the secret soloss comes in. But 327 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 2: it's not that secret because there are a lot of 328 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 2: stocks in the world, and you can sort of create 329 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 2: a bunch of different, diverse, bied portfolios that give you 330 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 2: the exposures you want. And ideally, you know, you go 331 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 2: long stocks that are good and you go short stocks 332 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 2: that are bad, and like maybe you don't have as 333 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 2: many losses and you just have a lot of gains, 334 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: But it's sort of like that's just gravy. What you 335 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 2: really want is to have a long short portfolio where 336 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 2: like your net exposure is the net exposure you want, 337 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 2: and where if you lose money on one side of 338 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 2: the trade, you get to didacti from your taxes. 339 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 1: So your column in this conversation is inspired by a 340 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: great article by Justine of Bloomberg News last week, and 341 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: I feel like we're learning about a lot of different 342 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: methods if you're a really wealthy person to sort of 343 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: defer taxes. The question I had reading this article. Justina 344 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: describes an example of this brilliant Apple engineer. He has 345 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: a million dollars worth of Apple shares, He has years 346 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: of gains, So basically he does this strategy, you know, 347 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: maybe goes one hundred and thirty percent long thirty percent 348 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: short to do this trade. But why wouldn't he just 349 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: do a swap fund in that scenario, which we just 350 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 1: talked about like two weeks ago. 351 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 2: Swat funds have like their own administrative complexities. If you're 352 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 2: doing this, you're sort of permanently generating tax seductions, Like 353 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 2: you can keep generating tax eductions every year. Like the 354 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 2: swap fund is a way to diversify out of your 355 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 2: appreciated asset without immediately paying taxes on it, but you're 356 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 2: not like generating any additional tax losses. Swat funds are 357 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 2: kind of weird. You're not getting the same diversification as 358 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 2: you would by like buying an S and P fund 359 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 2: because you know, you're sort of like in a swop 360 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: fund with other people who have also contributed to the 361 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 2: swap fund. 362 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: Generally that makes sense. 363 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 2: You know, ranny aout this. People have been emailing me 364 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 2: with a lot of like other ways that people defer taxes. 365 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: This is just like a sort of juice up version 366 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 2: of tax loss harvest thing which any financial advisor and 367 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 2: most robo advisors at this point will do, where like 368 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 2: just at the end of the year, you like sell 369 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 2: your stocks that have gone down so that you can 370 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 2: take tax losses, and then you know, you go buy 371 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 2: some different stocks. And one thing that people have found 372 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 2: is that people often don't really want to buy different 373 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 2: stocks because different stocks would give them a different risk profile, 374 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,719 Speaker 2: and so ideally they would go sell their stocks, take 375 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 2: their losses, and then go buy the same stocks. But 376 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 2: you can't do that because the IRS has rules against 377 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 2: the wash sales where you sell us stock, take the losses, 378 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 2: and then immediately buy the back. And so people get 379 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 2: arbitrarily close to that in ways that make people mad. 380 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 2: And so the classic is like if you are invested 381 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 2: in ETFs and you have an ETF that is down 382 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 2: at the end of the year, you sell an ETF 383 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 2: and you buy back a different ETF with the same 384 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 2: like theme, right, so you know, it could even be 385 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 2: like you sell at S and PTF when you buy 386 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 2: back a different S and P ETF whatever theme you had, Like, 387 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 2: there's probably ten ETFs that sort of serve that basic 388 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 2: purpose and you sell one and buy back the other, 389 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 2: and the underlying holdings might be the same, and the 390 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 2: basic idea might be the same. But you can say, no, no, 391 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 2: I didn't do a watch sale. I sold the one 392 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 2: ETF and bought back a completely different ETF, And people 393 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 2: who email me are like, that's not really allowed, And 394 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 2: the rules on this are like a little bit unclear. 395 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 2: Like if you read the rules. They seem to be 396 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,719 Speaker 2: quite broad in saying that you can't do this stuff right. 397 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 2: You can't take tax losses when you're sort of hedged 398 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 2: the whole time. But if you look at sort of 399 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,199 Speaker 2: actual enforcement, the rules are kind of enforced more narrowly, 400 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 2: where like if you sell one thing and buy back 401 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 2: a very similar thing, you seem to get in trouble 402 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: for it. So there's a lot of stuff going on 403 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 2: here that people are like, yeah, it seems to work. 404 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of poetic that, like the origin 405 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: story of the etf rapper was just a way to 406 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: defer in dodge taxes, So you know, it's fitting with 407 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: the spirit anyway. I can't see your face, and I 408 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: don't like that. But something else that I wanted to 409 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: talk about from Justina's article, did you see the quote 410 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: that she had in there from David Schiser. He's the 411 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: professor at Columbia Law School. He said that basically, this 412 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 1: whole business of the taxaware long short, it feeds off 413 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: the complexity of the current rules, and in his view, 414 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: far too much time and energy is being expended by 415 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: these sophisticated players to pursue a lower effective tax rate 416 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: and I just thought that was funny. You know, like 417 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: what if like cliff Asnas was directing all of this 418 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: mental energy and this brain power at Bettering Society, for example, 419 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: That seems to be at least what this professor is suggesting. 420 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 2: I simpathized. But I also used to be a derivative structure, 421 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 2: and I tell you that in the abstract, it is 422 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,679 Speaker 2: hard to go to a client and say, here is 423 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 2: a brilliant product for you, because like the brilliant product 424 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 2: like comes down to, like I get you some variation 425 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 2: on market returns and you pay me one percent, right, 426 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 2: and like over time, the expectation is that one percent 427 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 2: really adds up. So it's really helpful to go to 428 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 2: the client and say the way I'm going to make 429 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 2: money for you is not with my special brilliance, but 430 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 2: by like just taking it from the irs. There's just 431 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 2: a rule that says we can take this money from 432 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 2: the IRS and give it to you, and we'll take 433 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 2: half of it. And the client is like, yeah, that's 434 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 2: a good deal. When I was a derivative structure at 435 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 2: a bank, if you go to a client and you're like, oh, 436 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 2: you know, like we have a thing where you can 437 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 2: manage your risk. It's like not that exciting, right, But 438 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 2: if you go to client, you're like, here's a thing 439 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 2: where the IRS just pay you to do the trade, 440 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 2: then like that's great, you know they want that, And 441 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 2: so on the one hand being like, oh, these people 442 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 2: doing these tax ARBs should be doing something else for society, 443 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 2: Like I get it. But on the other hand, like 444 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 2: I don't know. If you're a financial engineer, the thing 445 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 2: where it's like the IRS is your free money is 446 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,679 Speaker 2: a great product compared to the thing where you're like 447 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 2: I have found a way to beat the market. It's 448 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 2: hard to beat the market. It's not that hard to 449 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 2: figure out a way to generate tax detections and like 450 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 2: defer tax cans. Yeah, it's not easy, as smart people 451 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 2: can paid a lot of money to do it. But 452 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 2: it's like more reliable. It's not entirely reliable, right, you 453 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 2: read about these things, there's always someone being like this 454 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 2: is not really allowed, like this is going to get 455 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 2: someone in trouble, Like this might not you know, the 456 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 2: rules might change. So it's not like entirely reliable. But 457 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 2: it is a good pitch in a way that like 458 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 2: we'll beat the market. 459 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: Is not Yeah, they's true. There is an whole community 460 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: of people who would say, like, the government needs your 461 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: tax dollars, but that's a different story. 462 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 2: Well, those people probably aren't doing this trade, I. 463 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: Would imagine not. 464 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I actually did hear from a 465 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 2: reader who is like, I got pitched this and it 466 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 2: felt bad for me to say this much on my 467 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 2: tax as. So I said, no, that's a that's a 468 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 2: reasonable approach. 469 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: That sounds like a really good conscientious person. I don't 470 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 1: think a lot of people. 471 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 2: But it's also it's like, you know, because you're like 472 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 2: like there's a little bit of uncertainty here and it's 473 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 2: really complicated, and like it's you know, like not everyone 474 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 2: who has pitched on a complicated financial product wants to 475 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 2: do it, and like it's not I would prefer to 476 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,959 Speaker 2: pay higher taxes. It's this seems like a lot of 477 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 2: brain power to go through to save some money on 478 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 2: my taxes. But if you really want to save money 479 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 2: in your taxes, then like, no amount of brain power 480 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 2: is too much to spend on saving money on taxes. 481 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: That's true. Do you want to get to the fun stuff? 482 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 2: Okay? 483 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: Super micro, super micro? So I feel like it's bad 484 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: it's just not a good look when your auditor resigns. 485 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 2: Your auditor resigns in like a real huff, you know. Yeah, 486 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 2: super Micro's auditors at EUI, the former Ernst and Young, 487 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 2: resigned with a nasty letter being like, we can't trust 488 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 2: you anymore. Yeah, seems bad. 489 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: I saw a version of that letter make its rounds 490 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: on social media. I was pretty sure too. I feel 491 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: like it was like a paragraph or two. 492 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 2: Maybe you've seen a letter that I haven't seen. 493 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: It could have been a fake letter, to be totally honest, 494 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: but anyway, a huff. 495 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 2: So super Micro filed a disclosure saying that their auditor 496 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 2: EI had resigned because they had sent super Micro letter 497 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 2: saying that we can no longer rely on the representations 498 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 2: that management makes nor trust the audit committee, which is wild. Right, 499 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 2: Sometimes there are accounting scandals where the corporate managers are 500 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 2: doing bad stuff and then like the board finds out 501 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 2: and there's a scandal, and the board is shocked and 502 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 2: like works with the auditors to find the problems, right, 503 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 2: because like, the board doesn't really have incentives to do 504 00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 2: a counting fraud, right, They're just there to get paid 505 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 2: a yearly fee and get sued when things go wrong, 506 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 2: like they don't want to do accounting fraud, but like 507 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 2: this is a somewhat unusual case where EUI is like, 508 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: not only do we not trust management, but like we 509 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 2: don't really want to talk to the audit committee anymore either, 510 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 2: which is a pretty smooth move right there. This is 511 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 2: such a salient, sorry, because Hindenburg put out a short 512 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 2: report on super Micro, you know, like a month ago, 513 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 2: saying that they're probably getting up to some accounting fraud. 514 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 2: When that happens, it's like the very natural like limit 515 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 2: on how seriously to worry about it is like, well, 516 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 2: their order hasn't resigned. The order is still auded in 517 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 2: their financial statement, so how bad can their accounting really be? 518 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 2: And then the utter resigns, Like yeah, there's no limit, 519 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:42,719 Speaker 2: could be anything, you know. 520 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: I feel like this checks two boxes for you, at 521 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: least two boxes. One on your campaign to make auditors 522 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: be cool again. I feel like this does a lot 523 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: of a lifting for you, and then also. 524 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 2: Very cool to do this sort of I'm like this 525 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 2: is very cool, Like I would love to resign in 526 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 2: a huffle this and like you know, because like you 527 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 2: resign it off like this and you really like you're 528 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 2: getting your revenge, right, like the stock tanked. It's really 529 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,239 Speaker 2: a bad look for the company, and so EI can 530 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 2: just be like, Nope, we're gonna resign, see you later, 531 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 2: and have like a really negative effect on the company 532 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 2: that's said You're gonna have a different interpretation of this, 533 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 2: which is EI has not like had the most amazing 534 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 2: run ever in terms of like being criticized for its 535 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 2: audit quality. And you could say, well, they are doing 536 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 2: this out of an abundance of caution, because like they 537 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 2: can't be caught standing close to a company with any 538 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 2: accounting problems because they've had some criticism of their audit work, 539 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 2: and in particular, you know, it reminds me of I 540 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 2: think last week EI was in the news for firing 541 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 2: people who are watching like two training videos at the 542 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,880 Speaker 2: same time. Right, So, like their auditors have like continuing 543 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 2: education requirements and they have to watch videos on their 544 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,160 Speaker 2: computers to check off the boxes, and some people were 545 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 2: watching two videos at the same time so they could 546 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 2: check off twice as many hours before getting back to 547 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 2: better things. 548 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 4: I get that temptation, no comment, but EUI fired them, 549 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 4: which seems very harsh, And so you remember that EUI 550 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 4: has been like find a lot of money by regulators 551 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 4: for things like having its accountants cheat on continued education exams, 552 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 4: and so you can't really do that anymore. 553 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 2: And so this is this whole thing where like they 554 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 2: are very much in a compliance culture because it's kind 555 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,199 Speaker 2: of like risky out there for them to be doing 556 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 2: what they're doing, and so they don't have a lot 557 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 2: of tolerance for nonsense right now. 558 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a fair point. The other box that I 559 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: was thinking about for you is that, you know, it 560 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: seems like you could be cast as sympathetic to the 561 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: short seller community, which has taken a lot of heat 562 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,360 Speaker 1: over the past couple of years. And here's an example 563 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: of a short seller potentially doing good for society and 564 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: the health of markets potentially. 565 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Like it's a lot like this is like 566 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 2: a little bit of an overdetermined case because like the 567 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 2: things that are going on here is like one, Hindenberg 568 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 2: is putting out a comprehensive every saying this company's accounting 569 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 2: is bad. Two an employee has apparently gone to like 570 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 2: the authorities to like blow the whistle and is like 571 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,719 Speaker 2: talking to the Justice Department, which is investigating because an 572 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 2: employee is, you know, independently of Hindenburg come out to 573 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 2: say that the accounting is bad. And then three like, 574 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 2: I don't know exactly what's motivating Ey, but it's not 575 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 2: necessarily they read the Hindenburg report like, oh wow, this 576 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 2: accounting is bad, right, Like they might have independently disagreed 577 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 2: with the accounting. So, I mean the timing is a 578 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 2: little odd. There are definitely some cases where it's like 579 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,959 Speaker 2: the short cellars or the market's like only line of 580 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 2: defense against like problematic accounting. And here it's not so 581 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 2: clear that that's true, but like it is potentially confirmatory 582 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 2: of what Hindenburg has been saying. 583 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: I guess we can't say for certain, had Hindenburg not 584 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: published its short report on August twenty seventh, whether we 585 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: would have seen Ey resign as their auditor in late October. 586 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:52,479 Speaker 1: But I don't know. 587 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 2: It's a good question, right, there is pressure on them 588 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 2: not to be near anything that gets any suspicion. But like, 589 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 2: did they independently decide there were problems or were they like, oh, 590 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 2: this is too high profile for us. We got to 591 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 2: get out of this, right, Like, did Hindenburg put the 592 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 2: pressure on them and by the way, like one possibility 593 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 2: here is that this company is like pure is the 594 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 2: driven snow and Hindenburg is wrong and EI read theurg 595 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 2: report and we're like this is too hairy for us. 596 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 2: We got to get out of here. And like, in fact, 597 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 2: this is like a very destructive thing that has happened 598 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 2: where EI, rather than being a stalwart independent auditor, has 599 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,719 Speaker 2: like felt the public pressure to renounce its client. Like 600 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 2: that's a story you could tell. 601 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, if that plays out, we'll talk about it on 602 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: this podcast. 603 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 2: Probably I'm not going to mark my calendar for it, 604 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 2: but it's like a thing that could happen. 605 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: It's a watch this space sort of thing. Something that 606 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: I did want to talk about is that super Micro's 607 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: star has risen or had risen so quickly. This company 608 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: was only just added to the S and P five 609 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: hundred in March, which was kind of a controversial thing. 610 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: You know, even though index inclusion is based on rules, 611 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: there is some discretion on the part of the index committee, 612 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: and there was like this really brief moment in time 613 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: just the way that the timing worked out where super 614 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: Micro was I believe, in the Small Cap Index while 615 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,719 Speaker 1: simultaneously being in the S and P five hundred. So 616 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's just like this funny quirk that 617 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: I don't know if super Micro is really in the 618 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: pain locker and it's been dragging one of many things 619 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,719 Speaker 1: dragging on the benchmark that it was only just recently 620 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: added to. 621 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 2: This is definitely a thing that Schurtzeller's point too, like 622 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 2: companies often get added to nities because of like short 623 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 2: term price moves that are sometimes you know, bubbily or 624 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 2: basedline bad accounting or otherwise not sustainable, and then like 625 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 2: they're in the index and it's particularly embarrassing when the 626 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 2: problems are found. There could be some element of that here. 627 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, well we'll see also if it stays at least 628 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: like in the NASDAQ one hundred, in the S and 629 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: P five hundred, I mean, it still a big company. 630 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 2: The other thing I liked about it is like the 631 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 2: Ey letter to super Micro resigning is not publicly filed, 632 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 2: although super Micro quotes it a little bit, but super 633 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 2: Micro's disclosure about it is like very sad, and it 634 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 2: includes the lines although the company recognizes Ey's decision is final, 635 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 2: it disagrees with Ey's decision to resign as the company's 636 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 2: independent registered public accounting from someone was like, it's like 637 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 2: a sad breakup, right, Like it's like we know we 638 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 2: can't do anything about it, but we're really sad about it. 639 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 2: But then the other thing that's crazy is that when 640 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 2: you put out a statement like this, EI gets like 641 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 2: a sort of right of response or like a right 642 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 2: of fact checking, where the statement that super Micro filed 643 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 2: comes with a little exhibit that is a letter from 644 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 2: EY to the SEC saying we have read super Micro's 645 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 2: disclosure and we agree with the statements contained in the 646 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 2: first paragraph, the first sentence of the second paragraph, the 647 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 2: third the first three sentences of the fourth pargraph, the 648 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 2: fifth paragraph, the seventh paragraph, and the eighth paragraph. We 649 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 2: have no basis to agree or disagree with the other statements, 650 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 2: which is like, first of all, it's just like an 651 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 2: incredibly like fun and embarrassing thing to have. But secondly, 652 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 2: like the things they don't agree or disagree with include 653 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 2: like supermankers, like we don't think this will affect any 654 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 2: of our financial statements, Like we don't have to restate 655 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 2: any of our financial statements. You. I was like, eh, 656 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know. A good luck about 657 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 2: it's like really kind of like adding one more kick 658 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 2: on the way out the door. 659 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's on this letter saying that they. 660 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 2: Don't agree with everything in the in the letter, in 661 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 2: the disclosure. 662 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: I mean, public breakups are really hard, They're really messy. 663 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 2: I almost have like pop culture reference here. 664 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: But I don't Someone can make another Ben affleck j 665 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: Lo reference, but I don't know the other one. 666 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 2: There's there's like a podcast host, right, her name is 667 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 2: Chicken something. 668 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: Oh my god, Brionna chicken Fry. Well, I can't believe 669 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: that that's in your head. That is like so firmly 670 00:32:58,720 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: in my world. 671 00:32:59,480 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 2: Yes. 672 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, well zach Bryan Dumpter on Instagram. 673 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 2: Well they hit broken out basically the same thing as 674 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 2: Zachana Chicken. 675 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: Fry Yeah, in a way. Yeah, that's amazing. We should 676 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: just cut the podcast off here. You know what else 677 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: has been pretty messy and hard is recording this podcast remotely. 678 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: This has been a little bit of a nightmare. But 679 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: I think we got through it. 680 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 2: I think we can do there. Good guy. 681 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: A happy Halloween. 682 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 3: This was super spooky. 683 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 2: And that was the Money Stuff podcast. 684 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: I'm Matt Levian and I'm Katie Greifelt. 685 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 2: You can find my work by subscribing to The money 686 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 2: Stuff newsletter on Bloomberg dot com, and. 687 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: You can find me on Bloomberg TV every day on 688 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: Open Interest between nine to eleven am Eastern. 689 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 2: We'd love to hear from you. You can send an 690 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 2: email to Moneypot at Bloomberg dot net, ask us a 691 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 2: question and we might answer it on air. 692 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening 693 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: right now and leave us a review. It helps more 694 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: people find the show. 695 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 2: The Money Stuff Podcast is produced by Anna Masarakus and 696 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 2: how is this on? 697 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: Our theme music was composed by Blake Maples. 698 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 2: Brandon Francis Munim is our executive. 699 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: Producer, and Stage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts. 700 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to The Money Stuff Podcast. We'll be 701 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 2: back next week with more stuff. 702 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: This was a nightmare, a Halloween nightmare.