WEBVTT - Turning Carbon Dioxide Into Stone 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:07.280 Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Welcome to 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:15.080 Forward Thinking. Hey there, and welcome to Forward Thinking, the 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:18.280 podcast that looks at the future and says we will 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:23.680 we will rock you. I'm Jonathan Strick and I'm Joe McCormick. 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:28.080 You always astound me. You take us to new depths 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.560 of shame and misery. There's so many songs that have 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:37.080 rock or stone in them, and that pertains to what 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:40.120 we are going to talk about today, but I decided 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.760 to choose the most obvious one. So obviously we're talking 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:46.959 about the future of stone tools. Yeah, I think they're 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:48.920 really going to make a comeback. Let me tell you 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:53.159 is where it's at. Guys, if you're not on the 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:57.520 bronze train, you are really missing out. Actually very fashionable 0:00:57.560 --> 0:00:59.600 these days. Well, why are we going to be talking 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:03.640 about box today? So we wanted to look into a 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:09.520 strategy for dealing with carbon dioxide emissions. Now, as I'm 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:12.920 sure our listeners are aware, carbon dioxide is a one 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:18.280 of several greenhouse gases, right is It's the primary one 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.440 that is created by the activity of that we humans 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:27.559 tend to undertake throughout the world. Uh, And so there's 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:30.679 been a lot of discussion about reducing carbon dioxide emissions, 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:33.280 but not just not just that, how can we deal 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:36.560 with the carbon dioxide emissions we're currently generating? Is there 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:40.000 anything we could do to offset that in any way? 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:43.600 And one of the possible ways we could do that 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:47.920 is by mineralizing carbon dioxides. So we wanted to kind 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:51.200 of take a look at that. What does that entail, 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:54.880 why is it important in the first place, and what 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:58.920 are the possibilities for the future. So first we should 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:02.360 kind of just cover the ground about carbon dioxide, it's 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:04.559 role as a greenhouse gas, What does that actually mean? 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:07.680 How does that affect us? Yeah, because when we say 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:11.000 that it's the primary greenhouse gas according to the Environmental 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:15.840 Protection Agency, it accounts for of the greenhouse gases in 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:19.079 our in or the greenhouse gas emissions in the United States. 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.160 And it's not necessarily the most potent greenhouse gas, but 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:25.840 it's the most important important because it's the most abundant. Right. 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.799 So you can look at different greenhouse gases and you'll 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:32.400 see that different ones may absorb, first of all, greenhouse gas, 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:35.960 it creates the greenhouse effect, right, this idea of retaining 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:39.800 heat close to the Earth, which is a natural part 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:42.240 of what happens in our atmosphere, and if we didn't 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:45.200 have it, we would not be doing so well. Right. 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:47.679 We need we need some of that greenhouse effect in 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:52.040 order to retain heat and make the planet habitable and 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:54.600 let plants do stuff, you know, things like that. Yeah, 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.320 so it's not like we don't want any greenhouse gas, 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:00.320 but we have too much of it exactly. So the 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:05.799 Industrial revolution we have been accidentally geoengineering our planet by 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:10.880 changing the balance of dispersed gases in the atmosphere, increasing 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.360 the ratio of these carbon based gases that increase the 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:18.560 greenhouse effect, trapping more heat, warming the surface of the planet, 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:24.839 melting ice, changing ecosystems, killing species, changing weather patterns. It's 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:28.040 obvious at this point you know why this matters, right, 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:31.080 And it's definitely an industrial issue. It's it's it's not 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:35.400 happening because of the pasta we're eating. Um, it's it's 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.680 it's it's because of like pre industrial society. Of course, 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:42.640 they weren't taking detailed molecular readings on the atmosphere at 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:46.640 that point. But but researchers think that that we've seen 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:51.040 CEO two levels increased by what since pre industrial times. Yeah, 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:54.320 we're talking about thirty billion tons of carbon dioxide released 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.240 from human activities every year. Yeah. And and there are 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:00.600 ways of knowing what the carbon dooc side levels in 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.560 the atmosphere were like before industrial times. For example, you 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:08.240 can look at ancient ice cores or sediment cores. They 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:10.760 are all kinds of ways of looking for clues about 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:13.760 what the atmosphere was like in the past. Right, And 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:17.720 and carbon dioxide has a cycle where it can be 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:22.640 removed from the atmosphere. But we're seeing a real problem 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:25.480 and that not only are we dumping more carbon dioxide 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:28.239 into the atmosphere, we're removing a lot of the carbon 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:32.800 dioxide sinks where we would normally see some of that 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:36.440 CEO to get reabsorbed into the cycle where it's not 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:38.720 it's no longer in the atmosphere, all right. When you've 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:41.039 got a lot of trees around, they're pulling carbon dioxide 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:43.840 out of the air and turning it into more tree. 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:46.920 But when you have people cutting down a whole lot 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:49.159 of forests in order to do very important things to 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:52.320 be fair, uh, you just have less of that carbon 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:54.960 capture going on. That an amazing thing to think about. 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:56.960 You walk through a forest and you think where did 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:01.240 the mass of these trees come from? Mostly it came 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:06.240 from the air, air, and water. So that Yeah, the 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:08.560 primary atoms that are making up the cells of these 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:11.800 trees are carbon, and the carbon came from carbon dioxide 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:16.000 that was in the atmosphere. It's it's a phenomenal thing 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:19.320 to think about. And beyond that, you know there's carbon 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:21.760 trapped in other ways too. I mean, you know you 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.680 hear about like coal burning coal and that releases carbon dioxide. 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:28.960 Well before that, the carbon dioxide was part of the coal. 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:31.839 It was captured, it was it was in a form 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:34.280 that was not going to leak out and escape into 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:37.520 the atmosphere on its own. Oh so I wonder if 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:40.599 we could do something about our problem with an excess 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:45.880 of atmospheric carbon dioxide by just making that into more coal. Yeah, 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.760 you mean, like kind of reversing the process. Can't we 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:51.880 get all that stuff and make some rocks, like smush 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:57.279 it together really hard, mineralizing it essentially? The basic technical 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:01.560 about it, I guess mineralizing share The basic answer to 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:04.160 your question is we can. We can kind of do 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:06.960 that thing. It's not so much as making coal as 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:11.279 it is finding a method to convert CEO two from 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:15.359 the gas form into a mineral form. But it's actually 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.560 I hesitate to use the word easy. It's it's simple 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:23.919 in the fact that it does not require, uh, a 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:27.480 huge number of steps, right, not a processing It's simple 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.760 in theory and in practice it's hard, sure and well 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.480 and mostly just expensive to get started. Um. But we'd 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:36.800 like to talk to you guys today specifically about this 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:39.839 one research project that's been going on in Iceland that 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:43.719 recently published some really interesting results that they've had. And 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:46.560 the story came in from a listener of the Now 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:50.640 podcast by the name of Patrick. Thank you Patrick, UM 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:52.920 And yeah, yeah, so it's it's about this team of 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:56.880 icelandic American and French researchers who are working together in 0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:00.719 Iceland because Iceland happens to have an area conditions that 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:04.359 are just so extremely well suited to their work. Yeah. 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:06.560 It turns out that this uh, it's kind of like 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:11.320 a pilot project, and that pilot project is it's located 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:15.040 in pretty much the perfect spot to test out this 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:18.880 particular approach. UH. And we'll get into more details and 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:22.280 explain why it's so ideal. But let's talk a little 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:24.720 bit about this team. Uh, well, we should mention the 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:27.320 paper itself. Yes, the name of the so the paper 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:33.560 was published in Science in June right around but yeah, 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:38.080 it was called rapid Carbon Mineralization for Permanent Disposal of 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:42.280 anthropogenic carbon dioxide emissions. And I'm guessing that the operative 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:46.000 word in the title there is rapid because as you said, 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:50.120 we can. We can turn c O two into minerals. 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:52.760 We have the power to do that. But I'm guessing 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:55.280 it's not easy and it's not quick. Well, I mean it, 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.520 it happens naturally over time. But by over time we're 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:01.120 talking like spans of thousands of years. Now. On a 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.960 geological scale, that's nothing. Yeah, that's fine, but for we humans, 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:10.240 that's a darn long time. We want things to be changed. Now. Yeah, 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:12.640 it's it's tough to say, like, hey, the improvements we're 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:15.160 gonna make, we're not going to see any results from that. 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:20.760 But people or people like things in a thousand years 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:24.200 will totally enjoy our effort. The crab monsters that take 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:28.200 over this planet will benefit greatly from our efforts. And 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:30.320 we we can't even wait to to make an entire 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:32.880 box of macaroni and cheese we need easy MAC what 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:37.280 is the MAC version of carbonization? So the expert who 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:39.560 is sort of the the head of this, or at 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:44.080 least the person who has often been associated with it, 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:49.120 is your mater, and mater has been seen like his 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:53.200 work has seen not just here in this particular instance, 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:56.160 this Iceland project, there's also a project in the United 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:58.280 States I'll talk about a little bit later that he 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:03.559 consulted on. So he's definitely at the forefront of this 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:07.360 this sort of research and this methodology. And so his 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:13.880 whole um hypothesis was that we could use a particular 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:19.479 approach to speed up the natural cycle of carbon dioxide. 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:22.320 You could make it turn into a mineral much more 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:29.080 quickly using a specific methodology. Now, what he was looking 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:33.520 at was a type of carbon capture and storage or 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:38.040 carbon capture and sequestration, that's CCS. You'll see that term 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:42.480 pretty frequently. Sequestration. Isn't that such a euphemistic sounding word. 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:44.800 It's like when you you send somebody to prison, you're 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:49.720 just sequestering them. Well, you know, I it's funny because 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:51.280 when I think of the word, the first thing that 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:54.000 pops in my mind, even though it's not necessarily ever 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:57.120 used in that context is how do we deal with 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:02.199 nuclear waste? Right? The idea of of not just capturing it, 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:06.640 but putting it away where it cannot harm people. Uh. 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:09.680 In this case, we're talking about trying to capture carbon 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:11.880 dioxide and locking it in a form where it's not 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:13.920 going to leak back out into the atmosphere. That that 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:16.960 was a chief concern in all of these different approaches 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.600 that people have been trying with ccs. How can you 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:24.000 capture carbon dioxide and converted into a form that is 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:28.200 uh economically viable In other words, it's not gonna cost 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:30.880 so much to do it that no one is ever 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:34.560 going to put forth the money to actually go forward 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.880 with a project. How can it be easy and safe 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:39.800 enough so that you don't have to worry about putting 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:43.160 anyone in danger as a result of this um And 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:45.719 how can it be effective so that you're not just 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:48.199 having c O two leak right back into the atmosphere 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:51.679 despite your efforts. Even if that's a small percentage, it's 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:54.240 still a problem. Right If you say, well, this approach 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:57.240 is only six effective because the CEO two goes back 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:00.240 in the atmosphere, then you're you're looking at not good 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:05.760 return exactly exactly this this benefit of are we actually 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:08.400 better off using this approach than we would be if 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:12.040 we tried something else, like just reducing carbon dioxide emissions. 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:17.440 So the approach they used specifically in this case was 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:21.880 dissolving carbon dioxide into water, So you get busy water 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:26.560 essentially carbonated water essentially, and then injecting that carbonated water 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:32.480 into basaltic rock basaltic rock. You say, yeah, well, here, 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:36.120 here's the thing. Basaltic rock is porous, Okay, pockets, It's 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:38.360 got a little pockets in it, so you can inject 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:43.199 those pockets with this, uh, this carbon dioxide water solution, 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:48.240 and then you end up getting a chemical reaction. Basalt 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:51.679 also has stuff like calcium and magnesium in it, so 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:55.439 you get this CEO two solution reacting with that, and 0:11:55.840 --> 0:12:00.800 eventually that mineralizes into what is essentially limestone. And limestone 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:02.679 is very stable. You don't have to worry about that 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:05.840 breaking down and releasing carbon dioxide right back into the 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:10.920 atmosphere um and it locks it away. You can. As 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:13.320 soon as that mineralizes, you're good to go. The question 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:16.200 is how long will it take for the CEO too 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:20.320 to actually undergo this process? Now? There have been people 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:25.160 who before this project was underway, we're guessing that that 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:28.240 would be a matter of decades that you would be 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:32.240 pumping water into the basalt, and maybe twenty years you 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:36.080 might see a good return, like a decent percentage of 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:39.960 that would be mineralized. But that turns out to be 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:44.360 way too pessimistic, because according to Mater and his work 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:48.960 over in Iceland, they saw that more than of the 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:52.160 c O two they had pumped into the basalt as 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.760 a pilot project had mineralized in just two years. Yeah, 0:12:55.840 --> 0:13:02.000 like like so much of it. It is a remarkable return, 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:07.280 something that suggests that this approach could be an incredible 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:14.600 um option for certain situations. And we'll get into why that's. 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:17.040 You know, I have to put that qualifiers. It's not 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.599 it's not perfect, but but it is still an exciting development, 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:22.960 especially because of the scale of it. It's not like 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.880 they took like like three said, and tried to do 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:29.640 something like it and blow into a paper bag and shove. 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:33.800 That's a little bit more more involved in light the 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:35.719 bag on fire and put it on your doors and 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:38.040 knock on your door and run away. And it wasn't 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:43.679 was knock knock, it's climate change, the classic scientific prank. Um, 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.880 No that it was. It was not that case. So 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:50.480 I mentioned earlier that this particular project was kind of 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:54.360 an ideal realization of this approach, and here's what I 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:58.840 mean by that. First, the project is co located with 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:03.640 a geothermal energy plant in Iceland that is on top 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.400 of basaltic rock. Right, so you've already got the stuff 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:12.559 you need right there. Iceland is essentially made of basaltic rock, yeah, 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:16.320 which is not the norm for most areas. And well 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.000 that's part of the reason why we put those qualifiers 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:23.200 on this approach, but they had a plenty of basalt 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:27.320 to work with. Is a geothermal plant that also generates 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.480 carbon dioxide. Not all geothermal plants do, but this one does, 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.200 and it's at the tune of forty thousand tons of 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:37.400 the stuff every year, which is, you know, still low 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.520 compared to other types of power plants. Oh yeah, absolutely, 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:42.720 Like if you're looking at a cold power plant, you're 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:46.000 talking about three point five million tons of carbon dioxide 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:49.160 per year. But but anything that you can reduce is great, yes, 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.360 And so the important part is that they were they 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.000 had a plant where they could capture the carbon dioxide 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:58.480 emissions right from the generation, right, so they're capturing it 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.600 at the source from the normal plant, the thermal plant 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.480 also to go out with the net. Yeah. Yeah, a 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:06.920 couple of ziploc bags and a lot of heart and 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:11.480 moxi no um. So they had the CEO two source 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.080 right there. But also because it's a geo thermal plant, 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:17.920 in order for them to access the the heat that 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:22.400 is at the heart of the production of electricity, the 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:26.520 plant had to drill bore holes down into the basalt. Well, 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:29.400 if you're going to inject c O two into basalt, 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.680 you need to drill bore holes down into the rock 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:34.880 itself so you can pump the water down. So they 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:37.240 were already bought bar holes. No, no need to spend 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.240 money on all that drilling, right. Yeah. It's it's like, well, 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:42.440 this is this is perfect because we would have had 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.360 to do this anyway, but they already exist, so we 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:49.040 don't have to do it ourselves. So they had the 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:51.360 source of the CEO two, they had the basaltic rock, 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:54.400 they had the holes they needed. All they really had 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.240 to do at that point. And I again, when I 0:15:57.240 --> 0:15:58.960 say all they really had to do, this is still 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:01.760 a lot of work, but it's much less than what 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:03.080 they would have had to do if none of these 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:05.880 other things existed. No, I think it was easy. Yeah, 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:08.320 they had to dissolve the c O two into water. 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:12.800 You know, you should really be ashamed of themselves over 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:16.000 an Icelander. Who knows what else they're doing, right, I mean, 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:18.200 it's just a world of mystery to me. I know 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:21.840 nothing about the place. Uh, you just did, didn't you, Joe? 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.200 What do people do besides pump c O two into 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:27.080 the rocks over in Iceland, gawk and how beautiful the 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:31.520 world is, and and eat the best hot dogs on earth? 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.640 They have these hot dogs at every gas station in 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:38.200 Iceland called pilser that are they're the same everywhere you go, 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:40.840 not exactly the same, but like the recipes pretty much 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:45.080 the same, and they're they're cheap and they're awesome. Well, 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:49.640 now we know while they're not making hot dogs and 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:52.320 consuming them, they're apparently pumping the c O two into 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.000 the basaltic rock. Their first approach was to try and 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:59.200 do this with about two fifty tons of c O two, 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:02.160 and that is from two thousand twelve to two thirteen. 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:05.720 In two thousand fifteen, once they were able to see 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:08.360 that this program did appear to be working. They stepped 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:12.880 it up to five thousand tons of carbon dioxide. So uh, 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:15.440 that's still obviously a deficit to the amount that's being 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:18.760 generated just by this one geo thermal plant. They hope 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:21.160 to hit ten thousand tons by the end of this year. 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:23.639 Still a deficit because we were talking about forty tho 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:27.600 tons generated each year. But the progress is very promising, 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:31.000 and the fact that that CEO two isn't going anywhere 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:33.720 is a great story. Oh yeah, yeah, it's still and 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:38.080 again like offsetting any of this is a win. Yes, 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:42.080 but now we get into the drawbacks. Here's the reason 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:44.520 why we put a lot of qualifications on this. Now, 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.680 this is not to take anything away from this project. 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:53.320 I I love to say they should be ashamed. I am. 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:55.960 I'm kidding very much. No, this is really this is 0:17:56.000 --> 0:18:00.439 really good science, limited by geography and and and and six. 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:04.359 But still, come on, guys, you could have stepped it up. No, no, 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:08.680 this this The problem is that this approach, even as 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:13.240 effective as it is, is very tricky to do in 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:16.320 most places. Right, Iceland was again the perfect place because 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:19.159 you had that basaltic rock right there. The real issue 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.240 is that basaltic rock is it's plentiful. It's just not 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:25.359 plentiful any place where there happens to be, you know, 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:30.320 dry ground. Yeah, most of it is under the sea floor. Yes, 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.359 So in order for you to access the basalt, you 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.040 would have to drill down into the sea floor, which 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:41.159 obviously creates other hurdles, other engineering challenges, and increases the 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:46.080 cost of that solution, right. Uh. Furthermore, it requires a 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:49.000 whole lot of water to to carry out the process. Yeah. 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:53.320 So for every ton of c O two, they uh, 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:57.840 they estimate that it takes twenty five tons of water. Now, 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:01.439 we've done other episodes of about water, Like we did 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:03.879 one called Water Water Everywhere, and we did another one 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:06.360 called the Circle of H two O. Both of those 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:09.280 published in two thousand thirteen. And you remember, if you 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:11.399 listen to those episodes, we talked about how water is 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:14.880 a very precious resource. Fresh water is a very precious resource, 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.240 fresh clean water, I mean. And the issue, of course 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:21.720 it's complicated, right. The water is not leaving earth, it's 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:24.320 just not it's just not necessarily in the places where 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:26.679 people need it. Yeah, yeah, and and that can that 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:30.280 can become super problematic Also, the ratio of fresh water 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:34.159 to seawater to saltwater um is not quite what it 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:39.119 would be nice for us. It's great, great for the fish, Yeah, 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:41.520 not so much for us necessarily. Yeah, that's that's a 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:44.080 real issue. And and they and they haven't tested this 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:46.640 out with seawater, right that it may work with sea water, 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:49.440 and if it does, that removes that particular problem, or 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:52.439 at least reduces it. Because another issue is that some 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.240 of the places that would stand to benefit the most 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:59.000 from this approach have the least access to fresh water 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:04.040 or at least disposable fresh water. Also, I'm not using 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:06.679 tons of water today. Yeah, so let's get rid of 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:09.720 that one ton of c O two. Uh. And and 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:13.480 also you know if they if those areas aren't located 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:18.280 near like a like the ocean, and they don't have 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:21.160 any basaltic rock under the ground in those areas, then 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:23.520 that that means you have to have transportation, right, You've 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:25.919 got to transport the CEO two after you've captured it 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.040 to a place where you can then dissolve it in 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:31.880 water and pump it down into the basalt. I guess 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.920 you transport it in an electric car. I mean, yeah, 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:38.920 that's but that really that does and and you've got 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:41.719 to hope the the place that's generating the electricity is 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:44.680 doing so in a way that isn't dumping yet more 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:47.439 CEO two in the atmosphere. This shows how complicated this 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:51.000 problem is, right, that this is a non trivial problem 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:54.680 in multiple ways, not just in the scale, but also 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:58.240 how how we can actually tackle it in a way 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:01.960 that ultimately is hopeful. Now, one thing I do want 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:04.639 to come back on is that I don't see you. 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:07.080 Maybe you could explain to me what you're thinking of it. 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:09.360 I don't see what the problem is. If they can 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:13.480 use seawater, like I don't think there's really any shortage 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:17.440 of seawater, and it's not that they wouldn't need to. Well, 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:21.760 if they can use seawater, that definitely reduces the problem dramatically. 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:25.240 But for places that are far inland that still have 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:29.080 a lack of fresh water, that that would still be 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:32.399 an issue. Right, So you think of like lots of 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:38.000 mainland China or India, places that may be miles and 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:42.280 miles away from the closest ocean, and so you still 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:46.680 are yet right, you still have some real problems there. 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:49.560 I mean uh. And and also you'd have to watch 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:52.720 out with anytime you're gathering that much water to use 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:55.840 it an industrial application, you have to watch out for 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:58.240 for where that water is coming from and how it's affecting, 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:01.000 how it's removal is affecting the environ meant that you're 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:04.239 removing it from CC above reefish you know, like like 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:08.439 fish probably want some of that. I think we just 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:11.159 have to accept that here and there, some fish are 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:16.400 going to get injected into the basaltic rock. It's really 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:24.159 gonna mess up future. Look at look at the fish 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:27.919 fossils here. It's not supposed to be there. What's going on? Weird? 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:31.160 It's almost like almost like people were more fish appeared 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:35.879 on Earth, forcefully throwing fish into the ground in limestone, 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:41.720 limestone encrusted fish. They ate very strangely. Oh man, I 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:45.480 could go for some seafood right now. So one of 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:48.159 the other things to point out is even if you 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:52.639 were to have the ideal situation as the project in 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:56.520 Iceland seems to be, it's still pretty expensive. It's more 0:22:56.520 --> 0:23:00.560 expensive than other methods of carbon injection. Dr Hotter said 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:03.960 that it costs about seventeen dollars per ton of carbon dioxide, 0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:07.400 whereas other methods range closer to between five and ten 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:11.520 dollars per ton. So, and that's in Iceland. Obviously, if 0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:14.879 you were to try and build a facility out offshore 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:19.640 facility that's pushing c O two down into the sea floor, 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:22.720 that would probably be even more expensive per ton, you 0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:26.080 would imagine, I mean, just the building the infrastructure alone 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:30.320 would be incredibly expensive. So the question then becomes, does 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:33.800 it still make financial sense to go with this approach 0:23:33.920 --> 0:23:36.640 versus some other approach? Knowing that the problem is there 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:39.919 either way, right, we need a solution to the problem. 0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:43.959 Just which solution makes the most sense economically, because we 0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:47.760 can't just ignore that factor. I wish we could, because 0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:49.600