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Speaker 1: If you are against misinformation and hate speech, you know

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Speaker 1: you got to be against it on all platforms and

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Speaker 1: not just on TikTok.

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Speaker 2: There are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 3: As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget

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Speaker 3: Todd and this is there are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 3: This week, President Biden said that he would sign legislation

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Speaker 3: into law banning TikTok if Congress passes it. This comes

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Speaker 3: after legislation that would force TikTok, which is owned by

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Speaker 3: the Chinese company byt Dance Right Now to sell to

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Speaker 3: an American owner, pasted a big vote last week. The

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Speaker 3: House Energy and Commerce Committee voted unanimously to pass the bill,

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Speaker 3: meaning TikTok is one step closer to being essentially banned

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Speaker 3: in the United States. Last year, after TikTok CEO SHOWSI

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Speaker 3: Cheu went before a Congressional hearing to defend the platform.

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Speaker 3: Popular TikToker and disinformation researcher Abby Richards and I discussed

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Speaker 3: what a band would mean for marginalized communities. With the

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Speaker 3: platform being one step closer to being banned in the US,

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Speaker 3: it is really important to understand what this means for

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Speaker 3: our media landscape and for marginalized people. Now, y'all know

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Speaker 3: I love TikTok, but I also know that, like any

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Speaker 3: other social media app, it is not without its issues.

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Speaker 3: TikTok disinformation researcher and friend of the show, Abby Richards,

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Speaker 3: was one of the first people calling out TikTok for

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Speaker 3: the way that myth and disinformation and hate speech spreads

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Speaker 3: on the app. But for all of her criticisms of TikTok,

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Speaker 3: Abby still says that banning the platform is not the

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Speaker 3: right move. In a recent up edd for Newsweek that

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Speaker 3: you can read in the show Notes, Abby explained why

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Speaker 3: she thinks banning TikTok will ultimately hurt marginalized communities. I

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Speaker 3: caught up with Abby right after we both watched the hearing.

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Speaker 3: Abby Richards, friend of the show, How are you?

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Speaker 1: I am angry, Ridget. I am an infuriated girl right.

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Speaker 3: Now, as someone who has really built a lot of

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Speaker 3: your career not just on TikTok, but like calling out

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Speaker 3: TikTok for the ways that it can spread misinformation and

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Speaker 3: hate speech. What has it been like to watch elected

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Speaker 3: officials talk about banning it.

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Speaker 1: It's been infuriating because they're gonna get all wrong, Like

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Speaker 1: I have literally built my career criticizing TikTok. I will

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Speaker 1: be the first to tell you about like the copious

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Speaker 1: amounts of misinformation and hate speech, extremism, harassment that happened

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Speaker 1: on that app, but to then try and ban it

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Speaker 1: without any evidence that it is a national security threat whatsoever,

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Speaker 1: and just using like fear mongering and pointing to other

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Speaker 1: pieces of misinformation that I have tried to debunk about

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Speaker 1: TikTok like that. And this is like the types of

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Speaker 1: misinformation that emerges off the platform. So if you were

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Speaker 1: watching the hearing yesterday, you would have seen a lot

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Speaker 1: of our congress men and women pointing to TikTok challenges

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Speaker 1: that are causing children tons of harm. And I have

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Speaker 1: spent so many, like countless hours debunking these exact like

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Speaker 1: moral panics around these challenges, where essentially adults try and

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Speaker 1: blame the stupid things that kids do on the newest technology.

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Speaker 1: We see it over and over and over again. But

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Speaker 1: the fact that you know that's being used to justify

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Speaker 1: the banning of this app too is infuriating. And I'm

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Speaker 1: deeply concerned about what the consequences will be of banning

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Speaker 1: an app that one hundred and fifty million Americans use.

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Speaker 2: So you brought up something really interesting.

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Speaker 3: I know that these like so called like deadly challenges

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Speaker 3: was a big part of the hearings and something that

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Speaker 3: I mean, I almost hate to ask this question, but

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Speaker 3: I feel like it's an important context of the conversation.

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Speaker 2: That is like great news for Facebook.

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Speaker 3: They're like, oh, our strategy is winning, Like our strategy

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Speaker 3: to turn the public and of course elected officials against

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Speaker 3: TikTok and make them think that like it's this like

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Speaker 3: place where all these deadly challenges emerge, even though some

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Speaker 3: at least some of those challenges actually emerged on Facebook,

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Speaker 3: if you really want to get into the nitty gritty,

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Speaker 3: So did you see in the hearings the ways that

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Speaker 3: like fear mongering just sort of writ large about technology

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Speaker 3: was taking center stage in these hearings.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like they're placing this fear that they have

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Speaker 1: of new and emerging technologies and how young people use

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Speaker 1: them and just placing it on one singular app. So

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Speaker 1: rather than actually dealing with the consequences of this like

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Speaker 1: rapidly changing society because of the expansion of technology, like

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Speaker 1: on a monthly basis, we just want to like pin

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Speaker 1: all of our anxiety on one app and cross our

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Speaker 1: fingers that like, if we just ban this one app,

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Speaker 1: it'll all go away. And so I think we see

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Speaker 1: that a lot with the challenges and like the the

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Speaker 1: steam that they pick up among people who are not

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Speaker 1: on the platform. In particular, we know that it was

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Speaker 1: the Washington Post that reported that there was a consulting

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Speaker 1: It was the Washington Post that reported that there was

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Speaker 1: a marketing group that was working with Meta to place

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Speaker 1: abeds about, you know, fear mongering about TikTok. So that's

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Speaker 1: something that we have seen happened before, and it certainly

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Speaker 1: seems like this is a big win for Meta. If

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Speaker 1: you are on TikTok at all, you are probably seeing

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Speaker 1: this widespread popularity of almost conspiratorial language about where people

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Speaker 1: are blaming the ban on Meta and saying that like

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Speaker 1: Meta is lobbying and Google too to some extent blaming it,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, blaming it on Meta and Google for lobbying

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Speaker 1: Congress people and encourage them to ban their biggest competition.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how much truth there is to that,

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Speaker 1: because I think that there is a lot of geopolitics

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Speaker 1: there too, and it seems like the US government is

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Speaker 1: you know, very interested in like splitting the Internet as

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Speaker 1: much as possible right now. So it's hard to say

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Speaker 1: if it's like one cause versus another, but this does

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Speaker 1: definitely look like a big win for Meta, and they

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Speaker 1: used rhetoric that Meta has also pushed before.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so in terms of a TikTok ban, So in

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Speaker 3: your piece you write about how, you know, obviously you

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Speaker 3: are the first one to admit that TikTok has its

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Speaker 3: downfalls and the democratization of like media has its downfalls,

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Speaker 3: but you also talk about the ways that this could

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Speaker 3: actually harm marginalized communities. How do you see that working?

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Speaker 1: So let's okay, well we'll start here, and you consider

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Speaker 1: a like institutional media legacy media, so New York Times,

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Speaker 1: Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, CNN, and they are top

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Speaker 1: down information systems, which means that these newsrooms essentially look

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Speaker 1: at all of the news and then decide what is

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Speaker 1: newsworthy and then disseminate it to their audience. TikTok is

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Speaker 1: much more of a bottom up information system, which means

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Speaker 1: that anyone can post basically anything that they want, and

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Speaker 1: then the algorithm is working with the users to determine

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Speaker 1: what people are watching, and in that way, the users

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Speaker 1: decide what is of importance to them. So we have

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Speaker 1: two different information systems, and this top down one tends

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Speaker 1: to privilege white, richer, more privileged people. It tends to

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Speaker 1: be composed of people who come from more privileged backgrounds.

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Speaker 1: It speaks about their problems and things that they are

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Speaker 1: interested in thinking about. They in particular, like they have

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Speaker 1: to sell subscriptions or sell ads, so they have to

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Speaker 1: run stories that they know that the wealthy audience that

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Speaker 1: they pander to will be interested in the first place,

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Speaker 1: because it's really not that profitable to tell stories of

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Speaker 1: marginalized people who can't afford to subscribe to their newspaper.

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Speaker 1: So TikTok being this much more bottom up infrastructure, allowed

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Speaker 1: for two major like kind of newish forms of massive

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Speaker 1: dissemination of news and information. The first would be seeing

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Speaker 1: information from first hand accounts. So that's like when you

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Speaker 1: know this the started the invasion of Ukraine, where we

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Speaker 1: saw all of these videos of people fleeing the country

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Speaker 1: or being in bomb shelters. So you're seeing people who

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Speaker 1: are actually experiencing the events posting online and that garners

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Speaker 1: attention without editors needing to push it out. And then

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Speaker 1: the second is through trusted messengers. And these are people

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Speaker 1: that can speak to two specific communities and they have

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Speaker 1: had they've had a lot of success on TikTok. They

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Speaker 1: have built up these communities where they are trusted sources

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Speaker 1: of information and sometimes opinion. People go to them to

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Speaker 1: try and feel like they can understand certain problems. And

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Speaker 1: you know, this could range from a community of like

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Speaker 1: ten thousand people two communities of millions of people. But

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Speaker 1: this is particularly advantageous to marginalized groups who probably can't

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Speaker 1: afford a subscription to the New York Times, or alternatively

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Speaker 1: they don't want one because they don't trust the New

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Speaker 1: York Times. They've never seen themselves represented in the New

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Speaker 1: York Times. Like, there are so many reasons why they

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Speaker 1: might not turn to legacy media, but they will turn

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Speaker 1: to like a trust messenger who looks like them, who

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Speaker 1: speaks their language, who they feel understands them in their communities.

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Speaker 1: And so if we dismantle that infrastructure like suddenly, like

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Speaker 1: flipping off a light switch, you'd be leaving all of

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Speaker 1: these communities without their information infrastructure, leaving them in the dark.

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Speaker 1: It could be really, really damaging for them. And they're

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Speaker 1: very resilient to all of these marginalized communities, whether it's

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Speaker 1: communities of color, queer communities, disabled communities, they're very resilient.

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Speaker 1: They will rebuild. But keeping them in a state of

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Speaker 1: like constantly rebuilding the information infrastructure stops them from being

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Speaker 1: able to do things like organized and mobilize and gain

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Speaker 1: power because they're constantly rebuilding their information infrastructure. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm mad.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's such a good point, Like, I where

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Speaker 3: do I even start. I think that one of the

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Speaker 3: reasons why we're even having this conversation is like a

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Speaker 3: fundamental misunderstanding of the ways that platforms like TikTok have

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Speaker 3: worked and what they have like been used to, like

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Speaker 3: what movements they've been used to build. Right, Like I

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Speaker 3: still see people being like, oh, it's a kid's dancing app,

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Speaker 3: which like part of my soul dies every time I

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Speaker 3: hear that, you know, looking at around, like what was

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Speaker 3: happening to women in Iran? I have to say, I

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Speaker 3: don't think I would have known what was happening. I

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Speaker 3: don't think I would have known what was going on

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Speaker 3: if not for TikTok, if not for Iranian women saying, hey,

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Speaker 3: this is what's going on, here's how you can help,

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Speaker 3: here's what we need. I don't think I would have

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Speaker 3: been able to be plugged into what was happening if

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Speaker 3: not for TikTok. And so I think that it's it's

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Speaker 3: like a it's like a the people who are legislating

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Speaker 3: this don't necessarily have that visibility into the ways that

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Speaker 3: it is functioned for communities who are marginalized. And so

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Speaker 3: I I if we're gonna have any conversation about just

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Speaker 3: an outright ban, they're not even including that in the conversation.

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Speaker 3: And I feel like it's kind of like what you said, like,

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Speaker 3: if we're going to do something about how these apps

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Speaker 3: and platforms function in our lives and in our like

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Speaker 3: media ecosystem, let's not have it be done hastily and

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Speaker 3: badly right where people are, where people are gonna be

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Speaker 3: have the rug pulled out from under them, and they're

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Speaker 3: their very real issues are not even being discussed or

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Speaker 3: like you know, brought to the table.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there's no nuance in this conversation whatsoever. And

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Speaker 1: you would think that if we're going to have a

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Speaker 1: conversation about pulling the plug on one of the biggest

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Speaker 1: pieces of communications infrastructure in the world. That is a

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Speaker 1: conversation that we should be very careful about. Dismantling infrastructure

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Speaker 1: that large is not a decision that should be taken lightly.

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Speaker 1: And yet it seems like our representatives like truly have

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Speaker 1: bought into this idea that TikTok is somehow simultaneously just

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Speaker 1: a kid's dancing app and also spyware. Like it's really

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Speaker 1: confusing how it can be both, and like saying like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: you could push specific you know, you could push specific

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Speaker 1: misinformation campaigns and try and sway the American populace, but

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Speaker 1: then also simultaneously ignoring the fact that like it is

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Speaker 1: a messaging center for a huge portion of the American populous.

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Speaker 1: Just remove it, there will be consequences. And then when

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Speaker 1: I bring this up, I see some people just like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, at the like you know, national security is

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Speaker 1: more important, or it's like everyone will just go to

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Speaker 1: a new app, and like, yes, probably they will, but

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that it won't cause a lot of

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Speaker 1: harm in the process. Doesn't mean that people will you know,

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Speaker 1: there's still gonna be lots of creators who lose their jobs.

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Speaker 1: There's going to people people who have built these large

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Speaker 1: audiences who now have nothing, and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: whose voices were empowered and suddenly were coming into a

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Speaker 1: position of discursive power who will now not have access

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Speaker 1: to that. And even if like yes, technically, if you

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Speaker 1: look at like a very big picture level, people will

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Speaker 1: migrate to new apps, sure, but there's still gonna be

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Speaker 1: a lot of consequences and we can't really ignore that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, even looking at what's going on with Twitter.

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Speaker 3: I there was a time where I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 3: everyone's gonna be using masterdon or this or that.

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Speaker 2: It hasn't.

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Speaker 3: I know that our communities, particularly marginalized communities, as you said,

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Speaker 3: are really resilient and we always find a way to

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Speaker 3: make We always make a way out of no way, right,

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Speaker 3: Like that is what we do. But it's watching it

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Speaker 3: watching Twitter become a place where people spend less and

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Speaker 3: less of their time. There hasn't been like one place

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Speaker 3: where everybody is like setting up shop, and so it's

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Speaker 3: takes longer, it's messier, it's it's more energy for these communities,

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Speaker 3: many of whom, if you look at the trans community

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Speaker 3: and the queer community are up against quite a bit

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Speaker 3: right now, and so maybe having to pick up and

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Speaker 3: rebuild a new communications infrastructure elsewhere is not what they

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Speaker 3: need right now. Is maybe it is maybe not gonna

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Speaker 3: be like great for those communities.

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Speaker 1: It'll be horrible for them because now, in addition to

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Speaker 1: legislation that is threatening their right to exist, they also

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Speaker 1: don't have their communities that they can turn to for advice,

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Speaker 1: for support, for information, and they don't have access to

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Speaker 1: their broader communications network to mobilize right and plan what

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Speaker 1: they will do in response or try and have a

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Speaker 1: place they can turn to to raise funds if they

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Speaker 1: need surgery, or if they need you know, legal fees,

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Speaker 1: or if they need to get out of whichever state

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Speaker 1: they're in. If you remove the communications infrastructure, and we're

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Speaker 1: talking about a marginalized community that is undergoing a lot

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Speaker 1: of legislative challenges right now that's putting them in a

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Speaker 1: position that just increases their marginalization.

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Speaker 4: Let's take a quick break at our back.

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Speaker 3: So let me zoom out a little bit and just

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Speaker 3: make sure that I have this right. Lawmakers are saying

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Speaker 3: that they want to ban TikTok because it's a national

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Speaker 3: security risk. This is a little bit above my pay grade.

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Speaker 3: I am no digital national security expert, and I want

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Speaker 3: to make sure that my understanding of this aligns with

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Speaker 3: your understanding. So it is true that TikTok is a

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Speaker 3: Chinese owned company, and it is true that potentially that

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Speaker 3: could open the door for all kinds of national security risks.

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Speaker 3: But what we don't have right now is a smoking

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Speaker 3: gun that this is actually a problem. We're very much

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Speaker 3: speaking in hypotheticals of what could happen or what potentially

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Speaker 3: might happen. So lawmakers right now are trying to legislate

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Speaker 3: TikTok because of this hypothetical threat that might be out there,

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Speaker 3: but it's not yet revealed itself.

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Speaker 2: Do I have that right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say you nailed it. They haven't provided

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Speaker 1: any evidence of instances where China use TikTok in any

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Speaker 1: sort of antagonistic way towards the US. It's only in

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Speaker 1: the hypothetical of like they own it and they maybe could,

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Speaker 1: and even if they could, it's kind of unclear how

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Speaker 1: they would go about doing that. What we do know

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Speaker 1: and like, what feels like it's missing from this conversation

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Speaker 1: so much is that even if we were to ban TikTok,

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Speaker 1: it would not stop the Chinese government or any government

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Speaker 1: or any bad actor from just buying your data elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: TikTok is roughly collecting about the same the same amount

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Speaker 1: of data as any of the other major social media platforms,

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Speaker 1: and then they profit by selling off selling it. Well

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Speaker 1: within the hearing that he denied that they sell they

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Speaker 1: sold data, so maybe they're not even selling the data.

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Speaker 1: But social media platforms in general collect your data and

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Speaker 1: sell it, and it is not difficult for anyone with

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Speaker 1: any sort of intention to just buy your data so

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Speaker 1: that they can target you with specific advertisements and specific messages.

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Speaker 1: So if we were actually concerned about the Chinese government

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Speaker 1: or any other government manipulating Americans, you would be implementing

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Speaker 1: like a comprehensive data privacy legislation rather than going after

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Speaker 1: one singular app. Because even if you were to band TikTok,

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Speaker 1: and even if TikTok were using it's data in that way,

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Speaker 1: which we still have no evidence that it does, they

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Speaker 1: would still just be able to purchase your data anywhere else.

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Speaker 1: So this is like applying a used, gross infected band

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Speaker 1: aid to a wound that will really not fix wound

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Speaker 1: at all, but will almost certainly add additional infections.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, I was just about to read your

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Speaker 3: quote in the newsweek piece back to you. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean it's this is this is what like really

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Speaker 3: gets me about this conversation is that, like I guess,

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Speaker 3: we have no meaningful data privacy legislation in this country, right,

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Speaker 3: and so like that, the fact that we're even having

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Speaker 3: this conversation indicates to me a complete failure of leadership,

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Speaker 3: governing and legislating, right, And so I feel like banning

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Speaker 3: TikTok is this big flashy gesture of like.

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Speaker 2: See we did something.

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Speaker 3: See we got it together and governed and and made

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Speaker 3: some kind of a gesture toward you know, data privacy,

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Speaker 3: but it actually does nothing. As you said, like there's

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Speaker 3: nothing keeping these companies or really anybody from buying our data,

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Speaker 3: Like there are so many other the fact that our

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Speaker 3: data is so misused and like that is the baseline.

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Speaker 2: Shouldn't we be talking about that?

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Speaker 3: So even if we were to ban TikTok, it would

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Speaker 3: be totally possible for the Chinese government to access Americans

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Speaker 3: data and all other kinds of ways they maybe they have,

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Speaker 3: And so It's like, what does it really do if

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Speaker 3: the real problem is our lack of data privacy infrastructure

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Speaker 3: in this country.

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Speaker 2: Other than being a big, flashy gesture, what does banning

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Speaker 2: TikTok actually achieve?

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Speaker 1: I mean to answer your question. Nothing. On a political level,

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Speaker 1: I think that it is a distraction that allows for

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Speaker 1: the American public to feel like something was done to

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Speaker 1: make them feel safer, while simultaneously not passing the legislation

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Speaker 1: that would actually protect the American public. And like, we

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Speaker 1: are a superpower when we demand that all of the

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Speaker 1: major social media platforms be stemming from us. How dare

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Speaker 1: the Chinese also have one?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I saw this great USA Today headline that was like,

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Speaker 3: how like how dare China try to get my data

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Speaker 3: from TikTok? Don't they know that that's for Google and Facebook?

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Speaker 3: But I think I get like like we have just

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Speaker 3: like lost the plot of doing anything to meaningfully address this.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I.

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Speaker 3: Think like during the hearing, some of the things that

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Speaker 3: came up around like content moderation and stuff, those are

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Speaker 3: important conversations to have, but having them having TikTok be

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Speaker 3: the face of you know, a lack of content moderation

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Speaker 3: or hate speech and harmful content proliferating on a platform.

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Speaker 2: I ask someone who has worked.

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Speaker 3: In this space for a while, I'm deeply uncomfortable with

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Speaker 3: that because I think it it creates a scapegoat that

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Speaker 3: lets these other i would say sometimes bad actors off

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Speaker 3: the hook, right, Like we're we're not having the conversation

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Speaker 3: in a meaningful way to actually get results. We're just

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Speaker 3: making an example out of this one big bad boogeyman,

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Speaker 3: which is TikTok.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. And I mean the examples that they were

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Speaker 1: pointing to aside from these like moral panic challenges, the

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Speaker 1: examples of violent content on the app were really wild

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Speaker 1: that they were pointing to it in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Because as far as removing you know, really violent content,

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Speaker 1: TikTok is better than most of the other platforms. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I professionally criticized them. It's one of my favorite things

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Speaker 1: to do is bullying TikTok. But they will generally be

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Speaker 1: pretty good about removing anything that I flag towards them.

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Speaker 1: And they have a lot of like horrible things on

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Speaker 1: their apps, like absolutely, but all social media platforms do.

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Speaker 1: And so what you really want to be looking at, too,

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Speaker 1: is just how much reach are those things getting. So

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Speaker 1: one of the videos that they pulled up during the

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Speaker 1: hearing was an imagery of a gun, and I think

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Speaker 1: it included one of the committee members' names, and it

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Speaker 1: was and they were railing on TikTok because the video

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Speaker 1: had been up for I believe forty one days, and

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Speaker 1: what they were failing to account for is that the

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Speaker 1: video had like no likes. It was not a video

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Speaker 1: that had been engaged with whatsoever. So arguably it's actually TikTok.

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Speaker 1: It's evidence that TikTok was doing a decent job with

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Speaker 1: its moderation, but that it had like siphoned this off

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Speaker 1: and contained it more than anything else. Like, yes, it

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be on the platform at all, but if it's

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Speaker 1: not getting any reach, really, then TikTok's moderation to an

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Speaker 1: extent is working. That's the whole point. It is, like,

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Speaker 1: you want these things contained, you want them, you want

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Speaker 1: them quarantined so that they don't spread. So being able

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Speaker 1: to point towards that was like, it was such a

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Speaker 1: strange choice. And then it was additionally strange because we

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Speaker 1: love guns in this country but apparently have problems with

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Speaker 1: images of them.

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Speaker 3: If you watch the hearing, there were actually some pretty

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Speaker 3: good questions that came up. Representative Eve Clark asked whether

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Speaker 3: or not TikTok suppresses marginalized creators, and Representative Lisa Blunt

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Speaker 3: Rochester asked about whether accurate information about abortion is being

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Speaker 3: suppressed on TikTok. But what was much more abundant, sadly,

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Speaker 3: were questions that weren't just silly, but also underscored how

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Speaker 3: little some elected officials seem to know about the technology

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Speaker 3: that they are responsible for legislating.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that example really.

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Speaker 3: Brings me to something that, like it pains me, but

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Speaker 3: I can't not talk about it with you. How some

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Speaker 3: of the questions and examples that these elected officials were raising,

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Speaker 3: we're just embarrassing, Like, you know, Representative Richard Hudson from

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Speaker 3: North Carolina, Like, I'm sure you know where I'm going

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Speaker 3: what I'm getting at the like exchange about whether or

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Speaker 3: not TikTok accesses users home Wi Fi? Like do you

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Speaker 3: ever so like, do you ever feel like the people

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Speaker 3: that we have elected to represent us and to advocate

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Speaker 3: for us and our interests up against big tech just

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Speaker 3: are making it clear that they're talking about legislating technology

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Speaker 3: that they seem to not really understand or get.

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Speaker 1: No, it was quite clear that no one on that

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Speaker 1: committee had ever opened TikTok, like they had never used

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Speaker 1: it before. They're just making wild statements and accusations and

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Speaker 1: guesses about how it works. And if you go on

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Speaker 1: TikTok now in response to that committee, I mean, they're

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Speaker 1: just being ridiculed because the users can tell that these

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Speaker 1: congressmen and women have never really actually used the app

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Speaker 1: or know what they're talking about in any way, shape

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Speaker 1: or form. And it is mind bogglingly infuriating to witness

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Speaker 1: people who don't even understand how Wi Fi works, or

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Speaker 1: like couldn't tell you the difference between a modem and

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Speaker 1: a rotor trying to legislate major social media policies, like

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Speaker 1: in major data privacy ubolicies, Like they don't understand any

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Speaker 1: of it, So how are we expecting them to even

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Speaker 1: know where to begin when it comes to those bigger

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Speaker 1: legislative problems.

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Speaker 3: It really goes back to what you said in the

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Speaker 3: beginning of our conversation of like, if we're gonna do it,

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Speaker 3: let's not do it badly. Let's not do it in

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Speaker 3: a way that like we are talking about a pretty

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Speaker 3: major communications platform. If we're gonna do it, let's not

435
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 3: have the people in charge make it clear time and

436
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 3: time again that they have no idea what they're talking about.

437
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 1: Maybe, just maybe, just maybe that could maybe be a

438
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: good place to start. Is like knowing that you need

439
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: to use Wi Fi to access TikTok. Like, Hi, oh

440
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 1: my god. I really liked the exchange about whether or

441
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 1: not TikTok tracked how much your pupils dilated in response

442
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: to certain videos. And it's like, no, they look at

443
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 1: watch time. Ah, They're not like reading your pupils to

444
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 1: see how big they get in response to each video.

445
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: I don't know what Black Mirror episode you think we

446
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 1: are in. We're in a different one. We're still in

447
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: one different just.

448
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: A different episode. Yeah, I don't think. I don't think

449
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 2: that TikTok.

450
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 3: Is like like logging your biometrics, dude.

451
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 2: Like it just it just was.

452
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 3: Some of those questions were concerning, And I also think

453
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 3: they just like reveal how we just need younger people.

454
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 3: I think, like like younger folks both in the both

455
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 3: in elected office and also being listened to.

456
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 2: I think is really really important.

457
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 3: People who actually have real world experience with the technology

458
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 3: that they're talking about, because it was, as you said,

459
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 3: it was just so clear that many of the folks

460
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 3: in Congress had just had no idea what they were

461
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 3: talking about.

462
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

463
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: No, we would absolutely need to have younger people or

464
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 1: just more you know, digitally literate people writing these laws,

465
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: because if you truly don't understand that, like the app

466
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: needs to track where your eyes are so that they

467
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: can put sunglass filters on you like that, that is

468
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: just something that a younger person would need to explain

469
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 1: and need to help them understand. And if if all

470
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: of our legislators are you know, I don't want to

471
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 1: say dinosaurs, but like they're acting like dinosaurs right now,

472
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,239
Speaker 1: and I feel like it's it's called for, then we

473
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 1: can't expect solid digital legislation from them. Like they don't

474
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 1: they don't know what they're doing, They don't understand anything

475
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: beyond email at this point.

476
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is sad.

477
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really sad. It's really scary because if

478
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: you want to talk about like the American people being vulnerable,

479
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: our leaders not even understanding like the you know, bare

480
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: minimum that they need to understand about how the internet

481
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: works like that leaves us quite vulnerable.

482
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: That's such a good point.

483
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: That seems like a much bigger threat. Our leaders failing

484
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: to understand anything about technology feels like a much bigger

485
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: threat than this TikTok boogeyman scare.

486
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 3: So what do you say to someone listening who is, like,

487
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 3: I am concerned about the national security threat that TikTok poses. Still,

488
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 3: what would you say to that person?

489
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: I would say that at this point in time, we

490
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: have seen more evidence of Facebook engaging in schemes to

491
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: manipulate the American public than we have TikTok. I mean,

492
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: we have evidence of Cambridge Analytica, we know that Meta

493
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: was involved with this, we have no evidence of TikTok

494
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: doing it. So at the moment, all of our fears

495
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: are based around a hypothetical and that they are based

496
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: around this like boogeyman of China, and that that might

497
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: not be the best place to create legislation from, Like

498
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: that mentality might not lend itself to the creation of

499
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: like really strong digital privacy legislation. And that I mean, also,

500
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: if you are personally concerned about TikTok, like, there's no

501
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: reason why you have to have it on your phones

502
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: that's a decision that you can totally make if you

503
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: if you have national secrets on your phones, like maybe

504
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: don't have TikTok on it. But then also like maybe

505
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: don't use any other social media platforms because they are

506
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: all gathering your data.

507
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 3: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it.

508
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 3: Other platforms are also gathering your data and behaving badly

509
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 3: and acting in ways that calls all kinds of harm.

510
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 3: But this legislation is very much black and white, and

511
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 3: it seems very much based in scare mongering about TikTok

512
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 3: as this potential boogeyman. And I just don't think that

513
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 3: fear mongering is a place that will elicit good, meaningful,

514
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 3: substantive legislation. You know, black and white thinking on a

515
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 3: nuanced issue is bad enough, but black and white legislating,

516
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 3: I don't know.

517
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 2: I don't like it.

518
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: I don't like it either. I don't trust it. It's

519
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: not coming from a smart place. It's coming from a

520
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: fearful place. And that's not where we get good legislation.

521
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: And if you want to have a much bigger conversation

522
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: about social media and the future of social media and

523
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: whether it's bad for us, whether it's good for us,

524
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: what harms it does, but also you know what net

525
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: positives it brings to the world. I am here for

526
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: that conversation. It'll take us a few years to get

527
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: to the bottom of it. It is not like a

528
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: quick and easy conversation to have, but I do think

529
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: that that's one we should be having, and I've and

530
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: trying to push for it. It's like, Okay, well, there

531
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: are all these issues with like misinformation and extremism on

532
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: social media, and we know that these platforms benefit from

533
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: the posting and sharing of content that is that appeals

534
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: to our emotions that is often false or is you know,

535
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: oversimplifying really complex issues, or it's just like extremists and

536
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: hateful in nature. We know that they benefit from that

537
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: because that's the sort of content that keeps people on

538
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: their platforms, consuming content and therefore consuming ads. And I

539
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: would like us to be working towards the creation of

540
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: like digital communities that are better for our emotional and

541
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: social well beings. I could absolutely see that occurring in

542
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: the future. Is like creating these digital public spaces where

543
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: people can go share information, but that aren't driven exclusively

544
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: by profit and are built with the goal of creating

545
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: a more well informed and empathetic public. But that doesn't

546
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: happen just because you ban one app you don't like. Like,

547
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: that is deep, deep infrastructural change that we need to

548
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: make and I think is the only way really forward

549
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: unless we want to drive ourselves insane. But that's that's

550
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: not a light and easy task.

551
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 3: It's certainly not going to be achieved by banning one app.

552
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you are against misinformation and hate speech, you

553
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: know you got to be against it on all platforms,

554
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: and not just on TikTok, because Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Twitter,

555
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: they all have it. I mean, Twitter right now is

556
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: also such a mess, just as a like, it is

557
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: wild to watch all of this, this giant attack on TikTok. Meanwhile,

558
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: Twitter is just falling apart, crumbling and has disintegrated as

559
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: like this this reasonable public space and the fact that

560
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: you know, we would be losing TikTok and essentially be

561
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 1: losing Twitter, that would really leave Meta with a lot

562
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: of power. But I also think it's interesting that like

563
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 1: one rich guy can just buy and ruin Twitter, but

564
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: like God forbid and pass some Chinese ownership.

565
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 3: You if you had to say, do you think that

566
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 3: TikTok is going to be banned in the United States.

567
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: I'm pretty fifty to fifty right now. I don't like it.

568
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: If you had asked me before, I'd be like, probably not,

569
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: because I thought that the Dems were smarter than that.

570
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 2: I don't know about that.

571
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: I know, I know why. In hindsight, what was I thinking?

572
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: They love losing. But I'm just I was baffled that

573
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 1: the Biden administration pushed for the sale versus ban because

574
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 1: I thought that they knew that if they lost TikTok

575
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 1: they would not be able to mobilize voters in twenty

576
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 1: twenty four. But apparently they don't know that and they

577
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 1: just are down for political suicide. I really it baffles me.

578
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: So I continue to be wrong and surprised by what

579
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: they will do in the name of like this weird

580
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 1: singular bipartisanship over xenophobia. It's the one thing that they

581
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 1: can relate to the Republicans on right now.

582
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 3: Also, you know, you made the point about mobilizing younger voters.

583
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 3: I said this on a panel and it got like

584
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 3: a laugh, and I was like, oh, I was actually serious,

585
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 3: I think, and this might sound it's gonna sound how

586
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,439
Speaker 3: it sounds, but I truly believe this. I think if

587
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 3: TikTok is banned in the United States, I see that

588
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 3: going very poor for Biden and the Democrats. Not to

589
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 3: make this like a horse face issue, but I think

590
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 3: that some of the most interesting, meaningful organizing of young

591
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 3: folks politically is happening on TikTok. If you look at

592
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 3: the conversations that younger folks are leading on when it

593
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 3: comes to things like climate justice, those conversations are happening

594
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 3: on TikTok, and they are mobilization conversations. So I don't

595
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that I think that young people will

596
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 3: be like, oh, we love TikTok and we're not going

597
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 3: to vote for Joe Biden just because he banned it

598
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 3: and we love it.

599
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 2: I think it's much deeper than that.

600
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 3: I think that gen Z uses it as a platform

601
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 3: to do political and social mobilization and organizing.

602
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 2: If you show that you don't.

603
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 3: Not just don't understand that, don't see it, don't value it,

604
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 3: ignore it, that is going to be a problem. And

605
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 3: so it's not an issue of it like, oh, these

606
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 3: whiny brats just want their dance videos no, no, no, no.

607
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: I think it's much deeper than that.

608
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 3: And if you if you show that you aren't even

609
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 3: able to see that, it is going to be a problem.

610
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. And people keep playing this off as like, oh,

611
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: you're going to poos off gen Z and it's like,

612
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: that's that's less what I'm worried about. I think a

613
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 1: lot of gen Z would still you know, the ones

614
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: who are going to vote anyways, will still vote for

615
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: the lesser of two evils, Like that's going to continue.

616
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: But what will you will But what you will lose

617
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: is all of this mobilization infrastructure where people are getting

618
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 1: their news, where people are having like lots of political discourse.

619
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: What is helping young people to understand the world is

620
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: the discourse on TikTok. Is the trusted messengers that they

621
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 1: turn to on TikTok. And if you take that away,

622
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: like they're just going to not be as politically engaged.

623
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: But because TikTok made it really easy for them to

624
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: get politically engaged and get politically informed and deep dive

625
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 1: into this discourse. Like you know, the people keep saying,

626
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: TikTok is this dancing app and it's so so wrong

627
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 1: because like, fundamentally, it's a discourse app. It's where people

628
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 1: are having conversations about the world. That's why like stitching

629
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: was such a groundbreaking feature, because you could take one

630
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: video and respond to it and you get this like

631
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:27,720
Speaker 1: built and constructed, constant discourse about political and social issues.

632
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: If you remove that, you know, they might still be

633
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: left leaning and like some of them might vote, but

634
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: they won't be as informed on certain issues. They won't

635
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 1: necessarily know where to or like where to be putting

636
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 1: their their energy for certain political issues. Like they would

637
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 1: just be losing so much of their infrastructure and that

638
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: will have severe costs, particularly for the Dems. And it's

639
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 1: really mind blowing to me that they don't recognize that. Yeah,

640
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm shocked. I shouldn't be. I shouldn't be.

641
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: I'm years into this, I shouldn't be.

642
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 2: Well, here's I mean big question.

643
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 3: Where will Abby Richards go if there's no TikTok? Like

644
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 3: I think of you as the person who is like

645
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 3: made a platform, like one of the first people who

646
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,760
Speaker 3: really made a platform from calling out and criticizing TikTok

647
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 3: and advocating for it to be better. Where do you

648
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,280
Speaker 3: personally see yourself showing up if it's banned.

649
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,439
Speaker 1: Here's the thing is, Like, on one level, I think

650
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: I experienced some panic where it's like, if I lose

651
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: my platform on TikTok, do I lose my power? Like

652
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: you know, will I still have work to do while

653
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: people still see me as valuable. And then after you know,

654
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 1: a little bit of dwelling in that panic, I got

655
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 1: over it because it's like, no, I'm privileged. I have

656
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: a lot of like institutional power at this point, like

657
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: I can pivot to other platforms if I want. And fundamentally,

658
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 1: I think that the deeper we go into a tech dystopia,

659
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: the more job security I actually have, which is dark.

660
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 2: But that was some dark hobby. That was some dark shit.

661
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 3: But I mean you're right, right, like like you call

662
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 3: out TikTok, but really you're calling out like our media

663
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 3: ecosystem the way that it impacts our democracy, Like it's

664
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 3: so much more than one platform.

665
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 2: Your voice is about so much more than one platform.

666
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 3: I guess I'll put it that way, But I agree

667
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 3: with you that, Like you know, when I started this

668
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 3: tech podcast, I never knew the Like I remember thinking like, oh,

669
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 3: maybe I'll what if I run out of content, what

670
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 3: if I run out of like things to talk about?

671
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 2: Nope, I sure never will, never ever will.

672
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 1: I mean my goal is to eventually put myself out

673
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: of a job. I would really like if I could

674
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: work hard enough and eradicate all of the misinformation I

675
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: hate speech online, and then one day I get to

676
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: retire and I don't need to do this job anymore.

677
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,320
Speaker 1: I don't see that happening. So I think, you know,

678
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: if TikTok is banned, I will go to other platforms.

679
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 1: I will build out my presence on other platforms too.

680
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 1: I'm far more concerned about, like the people who don't

681
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: have the institutional backing and who don't have power outside

682
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 1: of their TikTok presence, Like they will have their lives

683
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: much more uprooted than I think I will.

684
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 2: We are in such uncharted waters.

685
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, truly what happens to the creators like because

686
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: Congress I saw I was one one congressman like went

687
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 1: on Politico with like, No, they'll be able to switch

688
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 1: to a different platform, as if they haven't spent last

689
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 1: like two three four years building a platform, so now

690
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 1: they can do brand deals or now they can make

691
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: money from the Creator Fund and now, oh no, they

692
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: can just start over, it'll be fine.

693
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 3: Who cares like it's it's do you know how long

694
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 3: that takes? Like, yeah, it's but again, it's it's showing

695
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 3: that the people who are meant to be legislating this

696
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 3: just don't have a real realistic understanding of what of

697
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 3: like what they're actually talking about. And when they make

698
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 3: suggestions like that, it's like, have you taken a step

699
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 3: back to ask what that actually looks like in practice?

700
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 1: Yet I don't think that they have.

701
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 3: I will say, where there are marginalized creators on a

702
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 3: platform facing some kind of something that they don't like,

703
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 3: there's always really good pushback, and so scrolling the platform

704
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 3: after those hearings got to give it up to the

705
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 3: creators who are using their strengths creating good content to

706
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 3: you know, educate people on those hearings and sort of

707
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 3: what they thought about them. I've seen such hilarious tiktoks

708
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 3: coming out of that. I saw one creator who was

709
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 3: pretending to be a lawmaker in Congress who was like,

710
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,399
Speaker 3: I want to know and my wife wants to know why.

711
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 3: Every time I open TikTok, all I see is these

712
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 3: big breasted women that's making fun of, Like how silly

713
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 3: some of their questions were. So that's something I'll always

714
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 3: have faith in is marginalized creators being able to use

715
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 3: social media platforms to poke fun at legislators and to

716
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 3: spotlight and educate folks on something that they do not like.

717
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: Oh, one hundred percent, the tiktoks coming out of this

718
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: have been phenomenal. I was like getting a lot of

719
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 1: comfort last night and just seeing the conversations that were

720
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: being had. Even did you say, see any of the

721
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: chew edits the edits of the CEO people were making

722
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: like spicy edits of him, Stay TikTok Uh. Those were great.

723
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: There are a lot of I want to see if

724
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 1: I given told what I know. I just screenshotted one

725
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 1: this morning that was giving me life. Oh it was

726
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:48,280
Speaker 1: the cab cut meme of Pedro Pascal eating a cracker sandwich.

727
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 1: And then it says me watching the CEO of TikTok

728
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 1: defend the American people and our rights from the literal

729
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 1: US government all while they mispronounced his name, have no

730
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 1: knowledge about how Wi fi works, and are saying they

731
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,399
Speaker 1: are doing it for the children when there was yet

732
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: another school shooting that I didn't see on the news,

733
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 1: but I did see reported on TikTok.

734
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 2: Doesn't that really say at all?

735
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 1: That does that sums it up? Doesn't It? So like

736
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: TikTok is reading this stuff for shit. But like the

737
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: rest of the internet, I don't know so much. Because

738
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 1: there was also that study that came out or I

739
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 1: don't know if it was a study, it was a report. Well,

740
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: I want to say, no, I don't even remember which

741
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 1: which day's organization ran it. That was the biggest determining

742
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: factor whether or not you support the TikTok band is

743
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 1: whether or not you use TikTok.

744
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there you go.

745
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 3: It's like people who don't who like don't have direct

746
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 3: familiarity with the issue, are the ones who are in

747
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 3: favor of an outright band.

748
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're much It's much more. It is much easier

749
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 1: to convince people who are not even using the app

750
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: that the app is dangerous because they are not exposed

751
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 1: to it. They don't understand how it actually works. It's

752
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: much easier to fear monger about something that you're unfamiliar with.

753
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 1: It's much easier to hijack people's feelings of fear and distrust.

754
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: If they don't even know the other group that they're

755
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 1: dealing with, If if they're completely unfamiliar with the topic,

756
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,879
Speaker 1: then you can just push like fear mongering on them.

757
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: But the people on TikTok who have their own experience

758
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: was with it, you know, can can read that as bullshit. Yeah,

759
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: totally in favor of some comprehensive sweeping data privacy legislation

760
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 1: that would absolutely affect TikTok. Let's do that from a

761
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: place of reason and you know, national security of the

762
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 1: American people, Like, if we actually cared about that, let's

763
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:42,280
Speaker 1: go write that legislation.

764
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 3: In the end, TikTok and it's part in our larger

765
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 3: digital media ecosystem is huge. So a potential band would

766
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 3: have major consequences, not just for the millions of people

767
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 3: who use it, but for the way that information and

768
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:57,240
Speaker 3: discourse is spread.

769
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: Oh, this was cut of my Newsweek article, but it

770
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: was good. It's so like, I'm a member of this

771
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: coalition of TikTok members. I'm a member of this coalition

772
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 1: of TikTokers, TikTok influencers with the coalition has over five

773
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:23,839
Speaker 1: hundred members and collectively, they have over five hundred million followers,

774
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 1: and to put that in perspective, I believe that that

775
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: is more than the collective monthly viewership of like Fox

776
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: ynn AN MSNBC, which is about five million, So not

777
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: just more, it's like one hundred times more than their

778
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 1: monthly viewership, and that's just like their following count. But

779
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: I thought that that was, you know, really, I thought

780
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: that that was a good way to highlight just how

781
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,359
Speaker 1: vast this infrastructure is, and that we're not talking about

782
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 1: cutting off like a couple million people or like, you know,

783
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: handful of people. We're talking about dismantling in a communications

784
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: infrastructure that is so vast that it is like literally

785
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: hundreds of times the reach of the biggest news networks

786
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 1: that we can think of. That is not a decision

787
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: that we should be taking lightly.

788
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you've added that.

789
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 3: I do think that for people who don't use TikTok,

790
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 3: they probably it's probably easy to think of it as

791
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 3: like it's like that arrested development line, like it's a

792
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 3: it's a TikTok Michael, how many users could there be?

793
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 2: A hundred? Like they might not necessarily know the gravity

794
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 2: of the the way that it.

795
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 3: Functions as a communications platform and its role in our

796
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 3: larger ecosystem of digital communications, which is vast.

797
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 1: It's huge. It's huge, and people don't understand that it's

798
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 1: not a dancing app and that it is in fact

799
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: an information app that is a discourse app, and that

800
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: there is like so much existing infrastructure which has been

801
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:00,080
Speaker 1: built over the course of the last few years to

802
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 1: mobilize people, particularly for progressive causes, and if you take

803
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:06,839
Speaker 1: that away, we're going to have to rebuild it, and

804
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,760
Speaker 1: rebuilding takes time. Rebuilding is a way of keeping people

805
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 1: down right, Like, the reason why legacy news institutions are

806
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,280
Speaker 1: so powerful is that they don't have to rebuild every

807
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 1: four to five years. It's like you build power by,

808
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 1: you know, having stability in your institution. And if you

809
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: take all of these young people who have finally found

810
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: a bit of power, and particularly marginalized young people who

811
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: have finally found a bit of power, and then you

812
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 1: force them to rebuild again, you're removing all of their

813
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: access to power. And like, sure they'll get it back

814
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: in a few years, but a lot can happen in

815
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:42,720
Speaker 1: a few years.

816
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, And wouldn't it be and I guess it would

817
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 3: be to have to force these folks to have to

818
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 3: rebuild for something that didn't even really like achieve much right,

819
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 3: for something that like.

820
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 2: Didn't even really.

821
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 3: Achieve much meaning full action in terms of protecting digital

822
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 3: national security.

823
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 2: That is like, to me is like the real cruelty

824
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 2: of it.

825
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:11,319
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah. I mean for it to be done

826
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 1: for such a pointless cause for which there is no

827
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 1: evidence of harm in the first place, is uh deeply

828
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: unsettling to be like, you know, really challenging our First

829
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: Amendment rights in the way that they are threatening to

830
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: with zero evidence. Again, we have more evidence against Facebook

831
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 1: than we do against TikTok, and to ban TikTok, I mean,

832
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 1: it's such a concerning choice for the First Amendment. And

833
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: like usually I'm on the misinfo side of like having

834
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: to be like, well, you know, free speech is not

835
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: free reach, but like right now it's like, yes, no,

836
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: free speech does matter, Like this is a First Amendment issue.

837
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the government regulating a plaque.

838
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 3: How many times have you been in the comment section

839
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 3: being like, well, this isn't the government regulating something, it's

840
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 3: a private platform regulating something. So it's a little bit different.

841
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,359
Speaker 3: Maybe don't evoke the First Amendment. This is actually the.

842
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,760
Speaker 2: Government regulating something.

843
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 3: So like all of those free speech people like like mobilize,

844
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 3: like let's hear from you.

845
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 1: I know, it's like so quiet from the free speech

846
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 1: absolutionist right now. Like they cared a lot when TikTok

847
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: was censoring medical misinformation that TikTok had every right to

848
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: be to be removing. But if the government is actually

849
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 1: coming for a platform where a one hundred and fifty

850
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:48,760
Speaker 1: million people practice the utilization of their voices, that seems

851
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 1: like a free speech issue to me, that seems like

852
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 1: a challenge on our First Amendment rights. Really scary one too.

853
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, watching the hearing was quite scary

854
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: to me.

855
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 2: What scared you about it?

856
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: I think that there was this strange element of like, okay,

857
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: I when I learned about the red skin and history class,

858
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 1: I didn't anticipate living through another one that was like

859
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 1: weird to watch in real time. I was like, oh,

860
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 1: I thought that was like a historical event. I thought

861
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: we didn't do that again. So it had that element

862
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 1: to it where they were like asking the CEO of TikTok,

863
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 1: who I don't know his personal finances, but if he's

864
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 1: not a billionaire, he is a multi millionaire, just asking

865
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: him if he's a communist. It had a wild tone

866
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 1: to it, but on a much deeper level, the links

867
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:02,320
Speaker 1: that they will go to to take away our free

868
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 1: speech in the name of just xenophobia, that was really

869
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: scary to me. I don't think that that symbolized like

870
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: massive steps towards a more progressive world. That felt like

871
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: taking steps backwards, towards, you know, stricter borders and more

872
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:26,280
Speaker 1: nationalism and stricter laws, and just creating this divide between

873
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:32,800
Speaker 1: the West and the East, and just trying to reimpose

874
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 1: this iron curtain of sorts, this digital iron curtain. Like

875
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: that felt really dark to me.

876
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 3: I mean, when you put it that way, yeah, it's

877
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 3: I hadn't picked up on that vibe, but now that

878
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 3: you say it, it is scary, And I don't think

879
00:52:55,840 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 3: it's I don't think I don't think it's discourse that

880
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 3: leads us to a more just, progressive world.

881
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:05,879
Speaker 2: It seems like it leads us someplace else.

882
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like it shuts us down and puts

883
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: us deeper into like isolationist thinking. And that's not the

884
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: type of thinking that I want to see our worlds practicing.

885
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 1: I would like to see, you know, the Internet was

886
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 1: always promised as this thing that would like bring global

887
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: citizens together. I don't believe that we are in any

888
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: sort of like technological utopia or that the Internet is perfect,

889
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 1: but I do see the internet's capacity for connection and

890
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 1: connection with people that you would otherwise like never have

891
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:46,839
Speaker 1: spoken to or heard their stories. So earlier, you were

892
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:52,919
Speaker 1: talking about like seeing women in Iran protesting and how

893
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: you feel like you wouldn't have been exposed to that

894
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: without TikTok. And I worry that if we continue down

895
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:06,880
Speaker 1: this path of implementing these strict bands and like insisting

896
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 1: that we control all of the social media platforms that like,

897
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 1: it'll continue to cut us off. And that's not what

898
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:19,800
Speaker 1: I want to see.

899
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:21,719
Speaker 3: Here, fucking here, Abby, thank you so much for being here.

900
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 3: This was informative. I'm really glad. I everyone should read

901
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 3: your newsweek piece. We're gonna put it in the show notes.

902
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 3: But yeah, this was great.

903
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 2: I feel like I learned a lot.

904
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 1: I'm glad that you let me come. Rand I wrote

905
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:33,319
Speaker 1: the piece and I was like, I know who I

906
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 1: need to send this.

907
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 2: Oh you have an open invite.

908
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 3: Anytime you're like, I'm annoyed about this, You've an open invite.

909
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I love coming on your show. It's

910
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: always fun. You were like the one of the first

911
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:46,359
Speaker 1: ever podcasts that I did, and you were so nice

912
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 1: to me.

913
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you were I remember it very clearly.

914
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 2: You were such a pro.

915
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 1: I had no idea what I was doing. It was

916
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 1: all I was faking it.

917
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 2: Now you've got the mic, you've got the pop filter.

918
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 2: Look at you.

919
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 1: Now I know what we're doing. I know that I

920
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 1: can Like when I first started, I didn't know that

921
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 1: I could like restart a sentence when I like the

922
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 1: first time I ever did podcast, so the pressure was

923
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:11,879
Speaker 1: way higher. But now I know I can read.

924
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 2: Oh, I love a restart.

925
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 3: I restart like I catch myself doing it in casual

926
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 3: conversation where I'm like, Nope, no one's gonna come in

927
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:19,399
Speaker 3: and clean this up.

928
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 1: But you know, I feel like there's no editor right now. Still,

929
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 1: sometimes it's good to just restart because you're like, you

930
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:29,360
Speaker 1: know what, that sentence had a false it was a

931
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 1: faulty start, And it doesn't even matter if I'm being recorded,

932
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 1: it'll make more sense. If you just let me scratch

933
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 1: it and start over again.

934
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 3: If you're looking for ways to support the show, check

935
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 3: out our March store at tegoti dot com Slash Store.

936
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 3: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

937
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:51,839
Speaker 3: just want to say hi? You can reachus said Hello

938
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 3: at tegodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for

939
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 3: today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No Girls

940
00:55:57,120 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 3: on the Internet was created by me, which It's hid.

941
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:02,840
Speaker 3: It's a production iHeartRadio, an unbossed creative edited by Joey

942
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 3: pat Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Terry Harrison as

943
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:10,360
Speaker 3: our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almada is our contributing producer.

944
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 3: I'm your host, bridget Todd. If you want to help

945
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,799
Speaker 3: us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For

946
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:19,280
Speaker 3: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

947
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts.