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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Rich Robin Show of the Black Crows,

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Speaker 1: who have a new album, A Pound of Feathers.

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Speaker 2: Rich, why that title the Black Crows?

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Speaker 1: Ha ha, No pound of feathers.

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Speaker 2: Oh, pound of feathers? Oh well, it was a you know,

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Speaker 2: it was a lyric of Chris Is in one of

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Speaker 2: the songs. At the end he sings a pound of

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Speaker 2: feathers and a pound of or a pound of lad

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Speaker 2: and you know, it just kind of one of those

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Speaker 2: things that's stuck. You know. We always try to sneak

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Speaker 2: a bird, you know, a bird reference in there every

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Speaker 2: once in a while.

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Speaker 1: So who decided that was the title? You or your brother?

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Speaker 2: Chris brought it up, and it was me. Chris and

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Speaker 2: our manager talked about it, and we my manager and

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Speaker 2: I liked pound of feathers, and Chris had another one

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Speaker 2: that I can't remember what it was, and so we

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Speaker 2: kind of chose pund of feathers.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, we live in a totally different world today.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of acts of your avingteage. You

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Speaker 1: don't even make new records. How do you decide that

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Speaker 1: it's time to make a new album.

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Speaker 2: You know, Chris and I have always written. I write

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Speaker 2: all the time. Chris writes lyrics all the time. He's

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Speaker 2: got notebooks and notebooks of lyrics. And so basically the

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Speaker 2: way it works with him and I is that I'll

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Speaker 2: I'll send him musical pieces. Some of them are full songs,

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Speaker 2: some of them are you know, a verse and a

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Speaker 2: chorus or whatever it may be. And then whatever he

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Speaker 2: whatever pulls something out of him, whatever inspires him, is

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Speaker 2: what we tend to make a song, you know, And

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Speaker 2: so we just I believe in making records. I still

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Speaker 2: believe in making out full albums. I don't I don't

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Speaker 2: adhere to the new record label kind of philosophy of

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Speaker 2: let's make an EP or let's do a single. It's

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Speaker 2: just like make a fucking record. I mean, it's you know,

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Speaker 2: it's a piece, it's a whole thing. There's a journey

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Speaker 2: on a record. The sequences art is an art form.

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Speaker 2: The way the songs work together is an art form.

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Speaker 2: The way the the recording and all of these different

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Speaker 2: elements are creative elements of what I do and what

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Speaker 2: we do as a band, and what Chris and I

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Speaker 2: do as writers and it's still valid to me, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean. And so we make a record

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Speaker 2: when we're ready to, when we have songs, we're ready

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Speaker 2: to go in and you know, bust one out.

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Speaker 1: So you say you're constantly coming up with a musical

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Speaker 1: idea in the plural. So do you play the guitar

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Speaker 1: every day?

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Speaker 2: I don't necessarily play the guitar every day, but when

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Speaker 2: i'm it kind of depends on where I am. If

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Speaker 2: I'm on tour, I have a guitar in my room.

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Speaker 2: If I'm at home, I have a studio at my

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Speaker 2: place in Tapanga, and I mean I'm in upstate New York,

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Speaker 2: I have, you know, three guitars up here if I

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Speaker 2: want to mess around. But I don't make it a

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Speaker 2: mission to play guitar. But I always pick one up,

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Speaker 2: and I'm always I'm always inspired to pick it up.

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Speaker 2: Like I've always believed that if you pick up an

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Speaker 2: instrument when you want to, you're always going to be

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Speaker 2: happy about it instead of like, oh it's you know,

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Speaker 2: it's two o'clock, I have to sit down and do

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Speaker 2: my scales or whatever it may be. I'm more interested

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Speaker 2: in in that inspiration, you know, So I play you know,

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Speaker 2: I have drums at my house. I play bass and

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Speaker 2: drums and guitar, and you know, have some keyboards, and

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Speaker 2: I love to be in the studio and make stuff

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Speaker 2: and so a lot of times I'll just put together

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Speaker 2: whole songs for Chris and send them to them. And

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Speaker 2: but this record was a little bit different. You know.

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Speaker 2: We decided to use the studio as a tool to write.

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Speaker 2: So I had about twenty five or thirty things I

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Speaker 2: sent to him, and he chose, you know, twelve or

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Speaker 2: fifteen that he liked, and then we went in and

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Speaker 2: kind of saved the arrangement for the studio. And a

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Speaker 2: lot of times certain things will spark other things, which

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Speaker 2: then lead to other things. And that's what's really cool

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Speaker 2: about it.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back a step. What do you do in

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Speaker 1: upstate New York?

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Speaker 2: I have five kids, and there's a school up here.

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Speaker 2: They're a school burned down last year in the Palisades

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Speaker 2: and they go to a specific school. It's called the

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Speaker 2: Waldorf School. And the two big Waldorf schools in Los

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Speaker 2: Angeles burned down. There was one in the Palisades and

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Speaker 2: there was one in Altadena. And we had been up

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Speaker 2: here before because we love the area. It's gorgeous. But

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Speaker 2: we you know, my wife's from LA, so we moved

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Speaker 2: out to La. Kind of lived between Nashville and LA.

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Speaker 2: But we just bought about eighty acres up here, and

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Speaker 2: we're going to build a house and maybe live on

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Speaker 2: both sides of the of the continent or of the country.

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Speaker 1: I mean relative to California. New York is a small state,

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Speaker 1: but by the East Coast standards, New York is a

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Speaker 1: large state. How do you decide where you want to

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Speaker 1: buy land. I'm not looking for your address, but generally speaking.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I like trees, and I like I mean,

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Speaker 2: I grew up in Atlanta, so we had, you know,

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Speaker 2: we had a lot of being on the East Coast.

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Speaker 2: There's seasons, there's you know, I lived in outside of

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Speaker 2: New York for like fourteen years. I lived in the

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Speaker 2: city for a couple of years, and so and I

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Speaker 2: used to go up to Woodstock all the time, make

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Speaker 2: to make records and to you know, just to be

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Speaker 2: there because I love it. It's you know, the Catskills and

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Speaker 2: the Berkshire. So I'm kind of the property I bought

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Speaker 2: is right in between the Catskills and the Berkshires. We

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Speaker 2: have views of boat which is just beautiful. It's peaceful,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's just it's amazing. And about three or

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Speaker 2: four families from La moved here too to send their

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Speaker 2: kids to the school, and so we have friends here

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so how many kids are living with you? Now?

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Speaker 2: Five?

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Speaker 1: So you all five kids? What's the oldest.

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Speaker 2: Fifteen? And the youngest is five? And then have I

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Speaker 2: actually have seven kids, but two of them are older.

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Speaker 2: One's twenty nine and one's twenty five. So my younger bunch,

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Speaker 2: they all live here at home.

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Speaker 1: So the older ones, what are they up to?

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Speaker 2: My oldest one, his name's Taylor. He went to Occidental

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Speaker 2: and studied. He studied a form of AI consciousness that

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Speaker 2: I think it was kind of a curriculum that he

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Speaker 2: wrote himself, and he majored in that. And then he

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Speaker 2: minored in acting and minored in speaking Russian. So he

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Speaker 2: learned the Russian language, and he was really interested in teaching.

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Speaker 2: So he moved to Russia for two years. He lived

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Speaker 2: in Saint Petersburg teaching English, and I kept sending I

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Speaker 2: kept sending him things like, hey, you know, maybe you

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Speaker 2: should think about getting out of there. Things are getting weird,

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Speaker 2: you know, as the build up was going, and he

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Speaker 2: was like, no, that's just Western propaganda. They're not doing anything.

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Speaker 2: And literally randomly, it was just random. He flew home

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Speaker 2: and the day he flew home, Putin invaded Ukraine while

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Speaker 2: he was on the plane flying home to see his mom,

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Speaker 2: and he got he landed. He's like, I can't believe

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Speaker 2: that happened. I'm like, yeah, I've been telling you. There's

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Speaker 2: you know, one hundred thousand troops on the Ukrainian border.

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Speaker 2: So he moved to Georgia, the country. So he moved

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Speaker 2: to Tubilisi for like six months to a year, and

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Speaker 2: then he moved to Turkey because he has a Russian

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Speaker 2: girlfriend and she couldn't get a visa to a lot

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Speaker 2: of these places. And then they wound up in Argentina

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Speaker 2: for a couple of years. And now he's back in

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Speaker 2: Chicago and he goes to Northwestern School of Journalism.

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Speaker 1: Okay, did you ever go visit him in these places?

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Speaker 2: I never visited him in He came to visit, like

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Speaker 2: when he was in Russia, he and and his significant

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Speaker 2: other came to visit us in Amsterdam. But I've I mean,

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Speaker 2: I've been to Russia but not while he was there.

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Speaker 2: It was a lot more of a hasshole to get

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Speaker 2: over there because we were that's when we were starting

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Speaker 2: our touring, and then literally COVID hit, so he moved there.

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Speaker 2: I saw him in February January, February of twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: and that and then he went home, and then I

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Speaker 2: came home, and then the world shut down, and so

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Speaker 2: he was literally stuck in Saint Petersburg for two years.

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Speaker 1: Okay, what's the twenty five five year old up to.

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Speaker 2: He's in a band called the Sunday Mourners and he

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Speaker 2: lives in LA He's I think he's either just he

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Speaker 2: just graduated or finished his term in December. He was

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Speaker 2: going to Chapman but he's His band's great and they

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Speaker 2: just opened for the OCS. They did some shows with

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Speaker 2: X they did they're doing. They did a full tour

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Speaker 2: of the Midwest, and I think in the maybe the

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Speaker 2: summer of the fall. I can't remember what they're planning,

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Speaker 2: because they want to go to Europe. They have a

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Speaker 2: single out and record out and they have a lot

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Speaker 2: of interest from labels and booking agents, so I think

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Speaker 2: they're going to go over to the UK and do

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Speaker 2: a full tour over there, and they're going to do

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Speaker 2: East coast down into the South again in the States.

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Speaker 2: So their band's great. He's the singer.

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Speaker 1: What is your philosophy young kids who've graduated from college

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Speaker 1: and being on the payroll, not being on the payroll.

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Speaker 2: I want them to be happy and fulfilled and if

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Speaker 2: and if that makes him happy and he can do it,

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Speaker 2: and he can you know, he can provide for himself,

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Speaker 2: then I think it's an amazing thing, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean. I always show my support, but I never

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Speaker 2: get involved. You know, Chris and I and you know

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Speaker 2: we're not involved. You know, Chris doesn't get involved with

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Speaker 2: his kids, and like in the sense of like pushing

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Speaker 2: for things. I think he's very similar in that way.

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Speaker 2: I will always be there to help if they need it,

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Speaker 2: but I don't want to like insert myself and what

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Speaker 2: their trajectory may be or what they have plans for.

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Speaker 1: Well, your older son is going to journalism school at Northwestern.

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Speaker 1: That's a big chunk of change. Is he paying for that?

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Speaker 1: Are you paying for that?

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Speaker 2: We pay for that, the parents. But he's it's a

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Speaker 2: year it's a year program. So he's you know, he's doing.

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Speaker 2: I'm really proud of him. It's one of the best

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Speaker 2: journalism schools in the world.

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Speaker 1: Okay, does the one who's in the band, does he

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Speaker 1: ever call up and say, I'm sure, can you send me,

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Speaker 1: you know, one thousand or three thousand dollars?

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Speaker 2: He does other jobs, like he he models, and like

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Speaker 2: he does other things outside of the band to kind

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Speaker 2: of help him. He works at a record store. Like

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Speaker 2: he's got his whole thing down. He lives within his means,

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Speaker 2: so he's cool to exist. You know.

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Speaker 1: So their mother, when did you get involved with their mother?

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Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety two? Okay, she was twenty and I

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Speaker 2: was twenty three or twenty four. I was twenty four.

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Speaker 1: Is this somebody, because you know, Black Crows basically started

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Speaker 1: to blow up in nineteen nineties. Is someone you knew

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Speaker 1: before that or you met subsequent to No.

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Speaker 2: I met her at a show. Actually a friend, a

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Speaker 2: kind of acquaintance, brought her to the show and we

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Speaker 2: saw each other and we were together for twelve years

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Speaker 2: and had two kids. So that ended because just I

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Speaker 2: think we were too young and I was gone a

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Speaker 2: lot and she it's just you know, it's that age

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Speaker 2: old story. We grew apart, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: I think that's really all it was.

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Speaker 1: So if your kid said I want to get married

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Speaker 1: at twenty three, you would say.

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Speaker 2: What I would say, Luckily they're both past twenty three.

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Speaker 1: Well they're coming up. We got five coming up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, I would say. I mean, look, I could

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Speaker 2: you know, I can always give my like this is

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Speaker 2: what happened to me, but this age twenty three, this

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Speaker 2: is your life too, So you're going to have to

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Speaker 2: make this decision. But I would, as someone who went

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Speaker 2: through this, I would have to tell you that this

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Speaker 2: is something that can happen and you have to you

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Speaker 2: have to really look at it for yourself. But I'm

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Speaker 2: not the type of person to like force an agenda

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Speaker 2: or force them into something that they may not. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, look, life is life. Kids don't listen to

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Speaker 2: their parents. I never listened to my parents, and it's

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Speaker 2: just the way it is, you know. And so I would,

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Speaker 2: like I said, I'm always there to be like, hey,

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Speaker 2: this didn't really pan out for me. So if you

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Speaker 2: want to take that chance, go ahead, you know, okay?

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Speaker 1: And when did you meet your prison significant other?

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Speaker 2: I met her in two thousand and she and we

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Speaker 2: were together in five or six, I think it was six,

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Speaker 2: but we were together. Yeah, we've been together ever since.

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Speaker 1: Okay, did you just end up with five more kids

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Speaker 1: or did you want a big family?

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Speaker 2: I you know, it's tough when you go through a

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Speaker 2: divorce and you don't you know, you instantly get moved

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Speaker 2: to almost like a visiting uncle status. At least back then,

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Speaker 2: that's how it was, where it's like you get to

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Speaker 2: see your kids every other weekend and on Wednesdays or whatever.

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Speaker 2: And that that was just like the the way that

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Speaker 2: the divorce industrial complex tended to work, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean. It was like, this is what it is.

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Speaker 2: I had to travel because I was working, and I

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Speaker 2: still had to pay for everything, and that's what it was.

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Speaker 2: And so obviously I missed so much, you know, but

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Speaker 2: I also love kids and I love having kids, and

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Speaker 2: so you know, I just I just kind of go

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Speaker 2: with it. You know. I don't have a ton of

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Speaker 2: you know, we never really had a ton of planning

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Speaker 2: going on, you know what I mean. It wasn't like,

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Speaker 2: let's sit down and have five kids and this is

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Speaker 2: what we're going to do. We would you know, have

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Speaker 2: kids and we would be thrilled about it, you know

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Speaker 2: what I mean, that's how.

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Speaker 1: It was, okay, So you know, it's funny. I was

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Speaker 1: talking to Stuart Copeland and he has seven kids, and

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Speaker 1: he says, you never really know what you're going to get.

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Speaker 1: They all have their own personality.

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Speaker 2: What's your experience one hundred percent? And they come out, man,

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's so many things that when they come out,

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Speaker 2: there's certain there's already bits of their personality that are

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Speaker 2: already there one hundred percent. It's amazing, you know, it's like,

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Speaker 2: really it's so far out to see and then to

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Speaker 2: watch them grow and then watch those things that are

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Speaker 2: these you know, I don't know, these strong sort of

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Speaker 2: urges in their personality, and then they integrate into a

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Speaker 2: larger personality as they get older and older and older.

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Speaker 2: It's really amazing. I mean, my teenager, my fifteen year old,

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Speaker 2: he was he has a lot of the qualities that

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Speaker 2: he had when he was a kid, but now he's

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Speaker 2: getting into the grumpy teenage sort of face. So it's

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Speaker 2: I don't know how much of that is kind of

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Speaker 2: clouding the positivity of his youth, but I think it's

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Speaker 2: still in there because it comes out everyone in all.

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Speaker 1: So what intrigues you to invest and have them go

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Speaker 1: to Waldort schools? What's that about.

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Speaker 2: It's a specific way of looking at the world. It's

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Speaker 2: more of an analog way of looking at the world.

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Speaker 2: Like I still, although there's technology all around, I still

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Speaker 2: believe in the analog way of looking at life and

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Speaker 2: looking at the world and making music and you know,

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Speaker 2: everything I do, I would prefer to do it that way. Then,

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Speaker 2: I think if you have that base of being able

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Speaker 2: to exist, I mean I tell them all the time,

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Speaker 2: like you need you need to learn how to be bored,

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Speaker 2: because being bored can be an incredibly rewarding thing. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that's where a lot of I mean, that's where creativity

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Speaker 2: comes from. That's where the creativity is but was born from,

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Speaker 2: you know, a lot of times instead of having something

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Speaker 2: constantly in your face entertaining you twenty four to seven,

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Speaker 2: to just sit back and do some reflection and look

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Speaker 2: at the world in a different way. And so they

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Speaker 2: do these things. The way they teach is more of

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Speaker 2: a holistic way of teaching. They teach about, you know,

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Speaker 2: like thetle in their younger grades. They you know, they

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Speaker 2: bake bread and they cook things and they make things,

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Speaker 2: and they want it to be like the normal sort

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Speaker 2: of rhythm of life, to just be present in the classroom,

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Speaker 2: just to be able to smell bread being cooked or

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Speaker 2: go out here. They're encouraged to use their imaginations and

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Speaker 2: they're really they try to be strict. It's hard in

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Speaker 2: today's world, but there's a no media sort of thing

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Speaker 2: where you're not really supposed to watch movies or TV

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Speaker 2: or devices, and we thought it would be a great

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Speaker 2: thing for our kids, you know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so now we live in this technological world. To

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Speaker 1: what degree do you restrict their device use, screen use?

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Speaker 2: Well, when we're at home, we only allow them to,

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Speaker 2: like they're going to watch some stuff, but we have

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Speaker 2: a TV and we make them watch movies. You know,

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Speaker 2: we really try no YouTube. None of them have you know,

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Speaker 2: social media, and you know, my older son kind of

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Speaker 2: sneaks into it sometimes, but the younger kids, they don't

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Speaker 2: have social media and they can't, you know, other than

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Speaker 2: when we travel they have iPads to just because traveling

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Speaker 2: is can with five is pretty chaotic. But you know,

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Speaker 2: when we land, that's it. Those things go up and

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Speaker 2: they have to either watch a movie or play outside

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Speaker 2: or do whatever.

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Speaker 1: So what point do they get a phone.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, that's it. I mean my fifteen year

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Speaker 2: old got one a couple of years ago, so he

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Speaker 2: was like thirteen, I think when he got a phone.

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Speaker 2: So we try to push it to that, you know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I would say even later, but you know,

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Speaker 2: sometimes the fighting to get one. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: when he was in la they were going to a

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Speaker 2: different school. He was going to a different school in Malibu,

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Speaker 2: and all the kids had phones, and it was just

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Speaker 2: kind of like everyone's got a phone but me. You

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Speaker 2: know that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you know, you have five kids, and you have

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Speaker 1: two older kids who were out of school, but you

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Speaker 1: know there were some expenses here. You feel the financial

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Speaker 1: pressure to work and make the money.

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Speaker 2: I mean yeah, I mean we go out and to

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Speaker 2: our and I'm really fortunate to be able to do

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Speaker 2: that and take care of everyone. But my older kids

348
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Speaker 2: they're pretty I mean they're pretty self sufficient, you know.

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Speaker 2: Like I said, my twenty five year old, he's you know,

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Speaker 2: he does has he works at a record shop, He'll

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Speaker 2: do this stuff. He does a little modeling. He makes

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Speaker 2: a little bit of money. My older son has like

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Speaker 2: five jobs when he's not in school. He's really he's

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Speaker 2: got a strong work ethic and so he doesn't want

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Speaker 2: to rely on us.

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Speaker 1: You know, So how many boys and how many girls

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Speaker 1: of the younger five and do they get along?

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Speaker 2: Four boys and one girl?

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Speaker 1: Where's the girl in the hierarchy?

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Speaker 2: She's the second youngest. Okay, so she's seven, but she

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Speaker 2: kind of rules the roost, you know. She she screams

362
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Speaker 2: like nobody's business. She's she can control, she can control

363
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Speaker 2: what's happened, like she's so smart. She gets in on

364
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Speaker 2: it quickly and understands what's happening and can can traverse.

365
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Speaker 2: You know. She's the most like my dad, which is amazing,

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Speaker 2: you know, which is funny because my dad and my

367
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Speaker 2: grandmother in particular, were really charismatic people like my dad

368
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Speaker 2: and Chris were a lot of like my grandmother was

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Speaker 2: just like them. You know. She was a really far

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Speaker 2: out lady, you know, just ahead of her time. And

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Speaker 2: so my daughters like that, and she just kind of

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Speaker 2: rules everyone in the house, puts them in their place,

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Speaker 2: and she's amazing.

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Speaker 1: Okay. I mean there have been legendary battles between you

375
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Speaker 1: and your brother. That's your first hand, you know, growing

376
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Speaker 1: up experience. Now that you have kids, do you think

377
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Speaker 1: that's just a nature of siblings or was there something

378
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Speaker 1: special about the to you that caused friction.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think in a sense it's the nature

380
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Speaker 2: of siblings. Although my older two GID kids always got

381
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Speaker 2: along a lot better than Chris and I and my

382
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Speaker 2: younger kids. You know, my fifteen year old's a little

383
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Speaker 2: annoyed by everyone. He can't stand being around the little kids.

384
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Speaker 2: He's just like those kids annoying me. I can't be

385
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Speaker 2: around them. But there's also a cushion there because they

386
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Speaker 2: have other siblings to go to. With Chris and me,

387
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Speaker 2: it was just the two of us, and it was

388
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Speaker 2: also a different time. There was a lot of like

389
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Speaker 2: just deal with it, like you just have to deal

390
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Speaker 2: with what's in front of you. And I think today

391
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Speaker 2: there's a lot more negotiating room for people to deal

392
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Speaker 2: with one another, you know, And so back then, I

393
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 2: think that's really what it was. Chris, you know, it

394
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 2: was always the you know, kind of ringleader. He always

395
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,120
Speaker 2: drew like kind of dictated what we would all do.

396
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 2: We had cousins and we had people that were around,

397
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Speaker 2: but you know, I once we started writing music, writing

398
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,120
Speaker 2: songs together. It always worked, but there was always a

399
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,679
Speaker 2: push and pull because I have I have very strong

400
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 2: ideas about music and where I need where I think

401
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 2: it needs to go, and he has strong ideas about

402
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 2: what he wants, and so I think that's where a

403
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 2: lot of the stuff would come from. You know a

404
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 2: lot of those you know, battles that we would get into.

405
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Speaker 1: Let's go back to your father. Tell me about him

406
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: being so charismatic? What was up with him?

407
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 2: He was just I mean to this day there's people

408
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 2: in Atlanta. You know, he passed away in twenty thirteen,

409
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 2: so to this day in Atlanta, like, we'll go the

410
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 2: other I was there a couple of years ago and

411
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,719
Speaker 2: I had to go do laundry somewhere and we were

412
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 2: on tour and I was like, oh, well this place

413
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 2: will do I remember my you know, like this is

414
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 2: where dad used to go at whatever. And I went

415
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 2: in there and the woman was like, oh, your Stan Son.

416
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,919
Speaker 2: You know his name was Stan Robinson. And I was

417
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:16,719
Speaker 2: like yeah, and then like two other people in the

418
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 2: laundry at I was like, I remember Stan. I love

419
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 2: that guy. You know, that's just how he was. Like

420
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 2: everyone remembered him. Everyone loved him. He was funny, you know,

421
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 2: he was. He was just gregarious. He'd walk into a room,

422
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 2: he knew everyone's name. He knew, you know, every matre

423
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 2: d at every restaurant. He would go to every waiter

424
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 2: he knew. He just knew everyone. He was. He put

425
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 2: himself out and that's how he was. He was always

426
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Speaker 2: that way.

427
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Speaker 1: And how do you earn his living?

428
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 2: He was He was a musician in the late fifties,

429
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 2: when he was about eighteen, he had a hit called

430
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 2: Booma Dip Dip and it was on it was top

431
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 2: forty or whatever. He was on the Alan Fried Show

432
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 2: and Dick Clark Show. We found footage of him on

433
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 2: the Dick Clark Show actually, And then he got into

434
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 2: acting off Broadway or like, he tried out for the

435
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 2: Traveling Troop of for West Side Story, and then he

436
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 2: did some things here and there. He did some commercials

437
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 2: and then he wound up coming back to Atlanta and

438
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 2: he started a fote group called the Appellachians and they

439
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 2: they were on like I think they were on ABC,

440
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 2: Paramount Records, and they toured around the South there. You know,

441
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 2: he actually played at the Rhyman and when Chris and

442
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 2: I play there there's a plaque downstairs of him or

443
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 2: a mention of him. And so, but later he kind

444
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 2: of went down the road of my dad, of his

445
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 2: dad and his mom, and they were in the you know,

446
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 2: the clothing business took yeah, exactly, and his so his dad,

447
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 2: I was, he was a traveling salesman. And my grandmother

448
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: started a children's clothing company in Atlanta, this place called

449
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: the Merchandise Mart. And so she was one of the

450
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: first women to start her own business. And she had

451
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 2: her own showroom and down there, and she grew it

452
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 2: into a sizable thing, and then Dad took it over.

453
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 2: You know. Dad went into that after the after we

454
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 2: were born and the music kind of just you know,

455
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 2: it wasn't working out the way he wanted. He went

456
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 2: into started working for clothing companies and then he found

457
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 2: finally started working with my grandmother and then took that

458
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 2: business over. So he sold children's clothing for years.

459
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: So at what point did his family come from the

460
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: old country.

461
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 2: They came after World War One from Poland, which is

462
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 2: what we were told, and they were Rabinowitz and they

463
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: were naturalized Robinson and they came through Ellis Island.

464
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: And your grandparents were born overseas.

465
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 2: No, my granddad was, my grandmother was so ike was Jewish,

466
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 2: came from a Jewish family, but my grandmother was Baptist,

467
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: so her dad and her dad and first husband were

468
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 2: both Baptist ministers. And so how those two met up,

469
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,479
Speaker 2: I have no I have no idea, but you know,

470
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: she was our bubby. We called her Bubbs. You know,

471
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 2: she was like Bubby we called her. But you know,

472
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 2: we grew up. Dad had two older half siblings from

473
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 2: her name was Tatsi from I mean that was her nickname.

474
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 2: Her real name was Thetis, but they called her Tatsi uh,

475
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 2: And then we called her Bubby. But you know, she

476
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,959
Speaker 2: had you know, she had two kids from an older

477
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 2: from her first marriage, and then they were my dad's

478
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 2: half siblings. And I think there was like a fourteen

479
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 2: year difference.

480
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: So how did your father meet your mother?

481
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 2: They met at a party and Buckhead in Atlanta, and

482
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 2: I remember them driving us by the house and they're like,

483
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 2: that's where your dad and I met. You know, my

484
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 2: mom would say she was a stewardess for Eastern Airlines.

485
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: Wow.

486
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: And she moved down to Atlanta from Nashville, her and

487
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 2: her two sisters and they all I think they all

488
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 2: flew for Eastern you know, and so that's how they

489
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 2: got to Atlanta. Then her and dad met and then

490
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 2: we started, you know that they started the family.

491
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 1: Okay, was it an instant romance between them?

492
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 2: I guess, I mean, you know they do that generation

493
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 2: doesn't talk too much about that kind of stuff typically,

494
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. So I mean Mom said

495
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: it was you know, Mom said that there was instant

496
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 2: they were kind of together, but then she was like

497
00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 2: when they first had Chris, it was a little harder

498
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 2: for them, and then they everything smoothed out and then

499
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 2: they kind of went. But they got divorced in ninety three,

500
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 2: so you know, they were together for twenty eight years

501
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 2: or something like that.

502
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: Okay, they got divorced. Did either of them or both

503
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: of them get remarried.

504
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 2: No, Well, my dad, my dad got married, but I

505
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 2: think it was for like a couple of months and

506
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 2: then it just didn't pan out and then he split up.

507
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: I went to college with somebody whose parents divorced when

508
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: he was in his late twenties, and it fucked them up.

509
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: So what was your experience?

510
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: You know, it didn't mess me up too.

511
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: Bad.

512
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, they were unhappy. I think you know, again,

513
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 2: I always take a you know, I always take more

514
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 2: of a like it's their life, I and that's you know,

515
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 2: they're still here. It changes the dye dam slightly, but

516
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: it is what it is kind of thing. So to me,

517
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 2: it was just like part of life, you know what

518
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 2: I mean, this thing happened, it changed a little bit,

519
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: but they were both cool and then later they became

520
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 2: more like friends and they would talk to each other

521
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 2: and kind of could lean on each other a little bit.

522
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: So it wasn't you know, it sucks to watch your

523
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,719
Speaker 2: parents go through that. It sucks to watch, especially our

524
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 2: mom go through that because it was dad who kind

525
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: of initiated the whole thing. But you know, but again,

526
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 2: like you can't help how you feel. You can't help

527
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: who you love. And if you if if it's hard

528
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 2: to be around each other, then you know, then it shouldn't.

529
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: You shouldn't be around each other, you know what I mean,

530
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 2: That's how I saw it.

531
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: So how much of a Jewish influence was there in

532
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: the family growing up.

533
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 2: We had? I mean there was a good amount, because

534
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, culturally, there was a lot we

535
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 2: had cousins in Atlanta. Our uncle Saul owned a bike

536
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 2: shop in Atlanta. It was Cohen's Bike Shop, and he

537
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 2: was my granddad's either his cousin or his I can't

538
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 2: I don't know there was a relation there. And I

539
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 2: can't remember if it was his cousin or his brother,

540
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 2: because I know I sister or no, maybe it was

541
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,959
Speaker 2: his brother in law because my sister married him. So

542
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 2: and they and so we would go to their house,

543
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: and you know, we kind of grew up going and

544
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 2: I mean it was an interesting life Chris and I

545
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 2: had because we did have No one ever pushed religion

546
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 2: on us, but there was there was a religion around us,

547
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, or like like culture or religion,

548
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 2: and so you know, we were around it. You know,

549
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 2: we went to the family functions, we interacted with everyone,

550
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 2: and so it was it was kind of there through osmosis,

551
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 2: you know, in that sense. I mean Dad was going

552
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: to convert, but then he had a fight with his rabbi.

553
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 2: Then he bailed out. He said so, and he always

554
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 2: said because his dad was Jewish and his mom was Baptist,

555
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 2: he became a druid.

556
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: So, but your mother is not Jewish.

557
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 2: Nope, she she I mean for a minute, like for

558
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: a couple of years, she kind of went she was

559
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 2: a Lutheran because her sister was a Lutheran. But then

560
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: I don't know, I guess it wore off, you know

561
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 2: what I mean. She may she took made Chris and

562
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 2: I go to church a couple of times, but it

563
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: was like, I don't know, a handful of times. Dad

564
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 2: wasn't into it at all, and so Dad was like,

565
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 2: you know, don't make him go to church, and we

566
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 2: kind of I don't know what the impetus for everything was,

567
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 2: but we went in and got out pretty quickly.

568
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: Okay, we're exactly do you grow up in Italanta? How

569
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: far from the city center was your neighborhood like subur

570
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: what was the story?

571
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: We were in the suburbs. So when we were born,

572
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 2: Chris and I were born in Buckhead, which is part

573
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: of the Atlanta downtown like the city Atlanta city proper.

574
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 2: But then Dad got a job we moved to Charlotte,

575
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 2: North Carolina for two years, and then we moved back

576
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 2: out into the suburbs. And it was a suburb called

577
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 2: eas East Cobb County, and it was about thirty five

578
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 2: minutes from the city, you know, thirty five to forty

579
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 2: minutes tops. And that's you know, I mean I was

580
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 2: fourth or fifth grade when we moved there. I think

581
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 2: it was fourth grade, so it was fourth through twelfth

582
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 2: grade we lived there, you know, and that's kind of

583
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 2: where everything musically got started. That's where we would go

584
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 2: in the basement and play music and you know, started

585
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: cultivating our own musical tastes. Okay, you know.

586
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: I don't have an older brother. I have an older sister.

587
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: But I know a lot of people have older brothers

588
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: and the younger brothers entrall to the older brother, you know,

589
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: and before you hit you know, maturity, et cetera. What

590
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: was your relationship with your brother?

591
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 2: You know, we would get along. We got along, you

592
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 2: know a lot. We got along really well. But obviously

593
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 2: there were sometimes where we would fight and you know,

594
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 2: get upset. I mean I was always kind of bigger

595
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 2: than him, so I could, you know, we would we

596
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 2: would get in arguments and I could, you know, I

597
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 2: could hold my own let's just say it that way.

598
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 2: But he was also he would he would forge himself

599
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 2: into the world more than me. I mean a because

600
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 2: I was younger, but b just because of my personality.

601
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 2: So you know, he would go out and look for

602
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 2: records and he would go do these things and he

603
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 2: would bring them back and then I would go in

604
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 2: and take the ones I like and listen to him

605
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 2: in my room. And you know, I would always obsess

606
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 2: over the types of like all the instrumentation, and he

607
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 2: would obsess over the stats, like who played what, who

608
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,439
Speaker 2: did this, who played that? But I could I could

609
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 2: sing every note of every instrument that was going on

610
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 2: at the time.

611
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: Okay, were you good in school? Were you popular? Did

612
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 1: you play sports? What kind of kid were you?

613
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 2: I played football for like six years or you know,

614
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 2: something to that effect, but Chris played. Yeah, I played

615
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 2: football in soccer when we were kids. I remember playing

616
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,959
Speaker 2: soccer and football. I played from fifth grade to ninth grade,

617
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,240
Speaker 2: and then I stopped and was more interested in other things.

618
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 2: You know. I had two really good friends and some

619
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 2: other friends, but like, the three of us were really

620
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 2: close and we would do everything together, you know, that

621
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 2: kind of thing, always staying at each other's houses and

622
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 2: doing stuff. And then we had a broader group of

623
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 2: friends outside of that. And one of my friends lived

624
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 2: right up the street from me. So it was, you know,

625
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 2: it was easy just to walk over every day. Chris

626
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 2: had a ton of friends, and you know, he was

627
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 2: more out there, but I was more you know, I

628
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 2: was a little shyer, you know what I mean. I'm

629
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 2: a lot more shy than Chris was. And I had

630
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 2: my own issues to deal with because I was OCD

631
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 2: and no one really knew what that was and that time.

632
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 1: So were you a good student, mediocre student? You're a

633
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 1: good student.

634
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 2: If I wanted to be. I mean, you know, growing

635
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 2: up in the South and doing like going to public school.

636
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 2: I mean I went to thirteen schools and so like

637
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 2: in my whole you know, kindergarten to twelfth grade. So

638
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 2: it was you know, I would have falling out with

639
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 2: teachers or you know, it was a lot of times

640
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 2: it was boring and I would just be like Jesus,

641
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 2: this is so boring to me. And but if I

642
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 2: had to, like I you know, I remember like these

643
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 2: teachers would get mad at me and they're like, if

644
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 2: you if you don't get a hundred, you're we're going

645
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 2: to fail you and you're gonna have to repeat. And

646
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 2: I would get one hundred if I wanted, you know,

647
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 2: And because I'm like, the last thing I want to

648
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 2: do is go to this fucking school again and deal

649
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 2: with this. And so I could get good grades and

650
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 2: I could pass if I wanted, but most of the

651
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 2: time I was so bored I didn't. I didn't really,

652
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 2: I was so uninterested in what they in the way

653
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 2: that they were presenting these things to me.

654
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: Just if you move to the suburbs, Like when you're

655
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: in fourth or fifth grade, how do you go to

656
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: thirteen schools?

657
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: Well, it was starting from kindergarten, it was one school,

658
00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 2: then another, then you know, like first grade was when

659
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 2: we moved to Charlotte. So I went to first grade,

660
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: and then the second grade was a private school. Then

661
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 2: we moved back to Atlanta in the third grade, and

662
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 2: then moved out to East Cobb in the fourth grade.

663
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 2: And so then it was like I was in one

664
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 2: school for fourth and fifth grade. Then I went to

665
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 2: middle school, which was sixth, seventh, and eighth grade. Then

666
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 2: I went to high school. And when I went to

667
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 2: high school, I went to one school and then they

668
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 2: pulled me out and put me in private school, and

669
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 2: then I went to a boarding school, and then I

670
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 2: came back to another school, and so It's just it

671
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 2: was just kind of moving around within, you know. It

672
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 2: was just, you know, it was just sort of how

673
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 2: it happened, you know what I mean, which also created

674
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 2: a lot of like social issues because I was always

675
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 2: a new kid coming into school, you know what I mean.

676
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 1: Usually the new kids figure out how to fit in

677
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: and git along.

678
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 2: Though I can get along and fit in, but it

679
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 2: wasn't like having a group of friends that you grew

680
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 2: up with that you could deal with.

681
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: So why did you go to boarding school?

682
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 2: My dad? I went to my dad's boarding school. It

683
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 2: was just, you know, I got you know, my parents

684
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 2: wanted me to go there. So I went up there

685
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 2: to Darlington. It was in Rome, Georgia, and it was

686
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 2: where my dad and my godfather went and so it

687
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 2: was a great school and it was kind of cool.

688
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 2: But you know, I went there for a year and

689
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 2: then came back.

690
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 1: And what about your brother do he go there too?

691
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 2: He didn't go there. He went to a school because

692
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 2: Chris was dyslexic, so he had some learning issues, and

693
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 2: he went to the school called Brandon Hall, which was

694
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 2: more of like a tutorial school. There was one on

695
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 2: one teacher on one student or one teacher on two

696
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 2: students and they were designed to be able to deal

697
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: with those issues at that time, and I wound up

698
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 2: going to Brandon Hall two for a year as well.

699
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: So tell me about the ocd.

700
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: Uh. It's just something that I've always had and it

701
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 2: was pretty you know, pretty It's just extreme anxiety of

702
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 2: the world, you know. I you know, I feel energy

703
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 2: from people and from places, and I can and I've

704
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 2: always been able to feel it. And when I walk

705
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,879
Speaker 2: into a room, the energy can be like crushing, where

706
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 2: it can be pleasant, you know, just kind of depends

707
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:42,959
Speaker 2: on which room and where you're being in. The same

708
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 2: thing goes for people. There's certain people that when they

709
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 2: come around, their energy doesn't work with mine, and then

710
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 2: other times the energy works and it's great. And so

711
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 2: it's just it's just something I've had to deal with.

712
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 2: I mean, as I got older, I was able to

713
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 2: control it, and then now it's just kind of it's

714
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 2: very little. But as when I was a kid and

715
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 2: I didn't know what was going on, and my mom

716
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 2: tried to understand, and she tried to look into it

717
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,839
Speaker 2: and and was helpful, you know, but ultimately, you know,

718
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 2: no one talked about it and no one knew much

719
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 2: about it, so it was kind of it was just

720
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 2: something I had to deal with.

721
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: Well, do you have rituals, repetitions, you know, focus on things?

722
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I used to weigh more and now it's now

723
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 2: there's certain things that I'll but not I don't have

724
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 2: any of those anymore. I don't have to like do

725
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 2: you know, repeated things and you know, touch surfaces or

726
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 2: do this or do that, you know. I kind of

727
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 2: I was able to get past.

728
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: That and with help or you just outgrew it.

729
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 2: I I I went to actually went with my first wife.

730
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 2: We went to a marriage counselor, and she and the

731
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 2: marriage counselor and this came up, and the marriage counselor

732
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 2: told me she just said, well, you know, follow it through,

733
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 2: like what's going to happen if this happens. And then

734
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,879
Speaker 2: it just clicked with me, just just that simple thing

735
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 2: was like, Wow, you're right, She's like, you know, how

736
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 2: is this going to continue down the road? There is

737
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 2: an end? You know. I mean, because when I was

738
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 2: a kid, there was so much there was a lot

739
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 2: of pressure because you know, I was writing these songs.

740
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 2: I was the youngest in the band, and I remember writing,

741
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 2: you know, having to write a whole record, and you know,

742
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 2: because I was young, and because as the band got bigger,

743
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 2: Chris and I became more volatile towards each other because

744
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:47,879
Speaker 2: everyone was buying for you know, you know, who's say

745
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 2: is going to be what or whatever, And there was

746
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 2: a lot of resentment growing and I would get panic attacks,

747
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 2: you know when I when I was like twenty two

748
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 2: or twenty three. You know, you come off a record

749
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 2: like Shake Your money Maker. I was nineteen when I

750
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 2: made it, sold seven million albums, and then all of

751
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 2: a sudden, you're supposed to make another record, and so

752
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 2: we just go in and do it without thinking about it.

753
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 2: But by the time we got to America, it was

754
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:15,240
Speaker 2: like a thing. And I was and I was getting

755
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 2: married and making this record and all these things were

756
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 2: kind of hitting me at the same time. And that

757
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 2: was one hundred percent, I think, circling the center issue,

758
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 2: which was this OCD shit that I had to deal with.

759
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: So when was the last time you had a panic attack?

760
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 2: Well, my mom gave me some amazing advice one time

761
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 2: because she used to have them, and she just said,

762
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 2: there's a time limit, like the physical effects of a

763
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 2: panic attack last ninety seconds. And when I knew that

764
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 2: there was a time limit, then I was like, oh shit.

765
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 2: Logically I could look at that and say, this isn't forever.

766
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 2: And knowing that there was a time limit to it,

767
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 2: then I was able to kind of see when it

768
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 2: was coming or when they were coming, and then work

769
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 2: through it in a logical way. And then I haven't

770
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 2: had one since.

771
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,760
Speaker 1: You know, Okay, so you talk about your brother coming

772
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: home with these records. He's reading the credits, you're analyzing,

773
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: learning how to play all the parts. You remember what

774
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: some of those records were.

775
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 2: I mean early on it was like you know, rim records,

776
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 2: the replacements, you know. I remember he had a David

777
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 2: Bowie record. I think it was like the greatest hits.

778
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 2: I think it was Change is One or something, and

779
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 2: there was a lot of and I love David Bowie

780
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: and I love those songs. And when I first heard Murmur,

781
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 2: just this sound of that record was so profound to me,

782
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 2: you know, it just kind of I remember hearing it

783
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 2: on this station in Atlanta. It was called ninety six Rock,

784
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 2: which played like and you know, like like you know,

785
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 2: skinnerd or whatever, but they're playing this and I heard

786
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 2: Radio for Europe and it was one of the coolest

787
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 2: sounding things I'd ever heard, and it just hit me.

788
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 2: And so I would listen to that record, you know,

789
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 2: a thousand times. You know, a lot of stuff like that,

790
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: Chronic Town. Then there were bands that came from California,

791
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 2: like the Rain Parade, which were part of this Paisley

792
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 2: underground movement that was out there. The Long Riders, the

793
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 2: Rain Parade, the Three o'clock, the Dream Syndicate. We were

794
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 2: way into you know, X. I loved X. I loved

795
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,320
Speaker 2: the I mean, Billy Zoom is an amazing guitar player,

796
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 2: and the songs were deeper and cooler than some of

797
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 2: the punk rock that we first got into, like the

798
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 2: Dead Kennedy's or The Black Flag or that, and so

799
00:45:58,000 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 2: it was like the Clash and it became more like

800
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 2: rock and roll thing because the Clash and X and

801
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 2: these bands and the Ramones and you know, they were

802
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:10,240
Speaker 2: more they were more rock and roll and they had

803
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 2: some swing, they had some difference and it wasn't just

804
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 2: hardcore punk. Yeah, So you know, that's kind of where

805
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,879
Speaker 2: it started. My dad had the first thing I taught

806
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 2: myself how to play on guitar was a Dylan song.

807
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 2: It was Oxford Town and Dad had he had that

808
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 2: record at home, and I was and I just remember

809
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 2: picking it out and then I picked out a couple

810
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,800
Speaker 2: of rim songs, and I picked out a couple of things,

811
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 2: and that's just that's just how it got started.

812
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 1: Okay. Was the guitar the first instrument you played?

813
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, And I started banging around on my dad's guitar.

814
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 2: He had this, He had this guitar that was a

815
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 2: it was an old it was nineteen fifty three Martin

816
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 2: d twenty eight wow or fifty four, and so I

817
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 2: just remember picking it up and listening and like picking

818
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 2: stuff out on the guitar, just picking it out. And

819
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 2: then Dad would be like, you know, he didn't want

820
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 2: us messing around with that guitar. So she was like,

821
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,760
Speaker 2: all right, here's four chords or four or five chords.

822
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 2: He's showed me like ed AC and g and then

823
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 2: he showed me how to do harmonics, like this is

824
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 2: what you do to make a harmonic, and that was

825
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 2: about it. He was gregarious. He was great. I loved him,

826
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 2: but he did not have the patience to like sit

827
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,399
Speaker 2: down and teach me more than that, so I had

828
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 2: to grow what you know. I never started playing guitar

829
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 2: really till I was fifteen, fourteen or fifteen, and so

830
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 2: I was late, you know, doing that, but I just

831
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 2: kept at it and I was and so, you know,

832
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 2: I took those five chords and the first thing I

833
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 2: started doing was writing songs. And so Chris got a

834
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 2: bass for Christmas, and I got a guitar for Christmas,

835
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 2: and then we got an amp to share and it

836
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 2: was a bass amp and that was kind of it.

837
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 2: And Chris, you know, he kind of played bass for

838
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 2: a little bit, but he went he decided to be

839
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 2: a singer, you know. So that's how that that's how

840
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 2: that worked.

841
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 1: So what was the guitar you got?

842
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 2: I got a Lotus. It was a I guess it

843
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 2: was a Japanese company. It was called Lotus, and it

844
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 2: was a strat copy and so it looked like a

845
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,479
Speaker 2: stratocaster and we were into U two at the time,

846
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,800
Speaker 2: and it was like the edge is black and white

847
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 2: strat that he had. I remember that. I was like,

848
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 2: oh wow, that's cool. It's like the Edges guitar. But

849
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 2: it was the name of the brand was Lotus, and

850
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 2: uh and there was a bit there was a punk

851
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,720
Speaker 2: rock band in Atlanta called Neon Christ, and I slapped

852
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 2: a big Neon Christ sticker on it.

853
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: So, okay, it came late fourteen or fifteen. Your dad

854
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 1: showed you a few chords. Did you ever take any lessons?

855
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 2: No, I always most of the things I've done, I

856
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 2: kind of taught myself, you know, taught myself how to

857
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,240
Speaker 2: ride a bike. I taught myself really how to swim.

858
00:48:58,280 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 2: I had a little bit of help, but it was

859
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 2: just like, you know, they would throw you in the

860
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 2: pool and like you got to deal with it. I

861
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 2: remember them pushing us off the diving board in Atlanta

862
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,319
Speaker 2: at the YMCA, and Chris and I just having to

863
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 2: you know, make it, and so you just kind of

864
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 2: have to do what you have to do. So a

865
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 2: lot of those things I just taught myself and I

866
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 2: so I started writing songs pretty quickly, and you know,

867
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 2: we weren't much of a cover band. We were always

868
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 2: right off the bat, just writing our own stuff. And

869
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 2: one guy, you know, Chris, moved out when he was eighteen,

870
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 2: so he's two and a half years older than me.

871
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 2: I was still I was sixteen at the time. Maybe

872
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 2: I was fifteen, and there was a he lived with

873
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 2: Steve Gorman, our old drummer, and Steve and Spinn and

874
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 2: these other guys moved in with Chris into a house.

875
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 2: And one of the guys in Steve's band was called Mary.

876
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 2: My hope that one of the guys, his name is

877
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 2: James Hall. He was the singer. And James showed me

878
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 2: what open e with tuning was because I heard a

879
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,360
Speaker 2: song and I was like, what is that? That's amazing,

880
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 2: you know, and he was like, oh, that's open tuning,

881
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 2: this open e and you showed it to me, and

882
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 2: it just sounded different to me. It just sounded so

883
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 2: different than even just someone strumming an e and what

884
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 2: you could do with it. And so I kind of

885
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 2: started with that and just ran with it.

886
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 1: Okay, you started late and you come out full flowered

887
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 1: five years later. Were you just practicing all the time?

888
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: How'd you get so good? No?

889
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 2: I'm you know, Chris and I hate we are the

890
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 2: worst at rehearsing where and where even now we're like, oh,

891
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 2: we got to rehearse for five days and but no,

892
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 2: I just I mean, I stuck with it. But I

893
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 2: loved building. It's just it's like building. It was building

894
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:03,240
Speaker 2: a song. I love taking new approaches and kind of learning.

895
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 2: You know. Every time I would learn a new court

896
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 2: or a new approach, that would just be another piece.

897
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 2: There would be another word or another paragraph that I

898
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 2: could add to my language of what I was writing

899
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 2: or doing. We were playing shows.

900
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: A little bit. You went to varying schools, but I'm

901
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,800
Speaker 1: older than you. The Beatle era, we all saw the Beatles.

902
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 1: We all formed the band. Some people had downs, some

903
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 1: people didn't. But there were bands who played at the

904
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: school dances, the bar Mitzvas, whatever. What was your experience?

905
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: Were a lot of people in bands? Was it something like?

906
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 2: So? Where we were and I think the only time

907
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 2: we ever really played out where we were was we

908
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 2: played a graduate, Chris's graduation party, and it didn't end well.

909
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 2: But we played Chris's graduation party, and that was really

910
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 2: the only time. Maybe another time at like a house

911
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 2: party out there that we played, but yeah, that was it.

912
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 2: Every other time. We kind of went straight to downtown

913
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 2: Atlanta and we started playing in the Atlanta music scene,

914
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 2: which was more of an alternative scene. There was a

915
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 2: lot of punk rock bands there, but there was a

916
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 2: lot of you know, RIM kicked the door open for

917
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 2: tons of bands in Atlanta that were part of that.

918
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 2: I mean Rim and the B fifty two's. I mean,

919
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 2: there was a ton of stuff in the South between

920
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 2: Nashville between Chapel Hill, where you had bands like Let's

921
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 2: Active and you know the DB's, and then you had

922
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 2: you know, Birmingham and Tuscaloosa and Columbia, South Carolina. So

923
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 2: there was a ton of bands in that area. And

924
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 2: Atlanta was the biggest city in the whole Southeast, so

925
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 2: a lot of those bands would come through and we

926
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 2: would play. But that's where we were, you know what

927
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,720
Speaker 2: I mean. We started with bands like Driving and Crying

928
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:50,439
Speaker 2: they were going at the same time, and a lot

929
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 2: of local bands, and so that's I would get in, like,

930
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 2: you know, I would finish with school when I by

931
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 2: the time I was sixteen, I had my own car,

932
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 2: so finished school in our drive sound check. So we

933
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 2: would be playing shows. We played shows and Athens. We

934
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 2: played shows, you know, all over even on weeknights, and

935
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 2: I would finish school, come home, get my guitar, drive

936
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 2: down to you know, to cab County or Atlanta or

937
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:18,399
Speaker 2: wherever we were playing a show, and then I would

938
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 2: play the show, then come home by one in the morning,

939
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 2: and the wake up and go to school the next day.

940
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 1: Okay, your brother moves out, he's living with other players.

941
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: At what point does it become a band or was

942
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 1: it already a band before that?

943
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 2: You know, it was a band before that, because you know,

944
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 2: we started a band. It was like our cousin was

945
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 2: on drums and because he got a drum kit for Christmas,

946
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:47,799
Speaker 2: and we got guitars and a bass and so we

947
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 2: just kind of started bashing around right off the bat.

948
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 2: But my cousin was playing soccer and his dad wanted

949
00:53:56,520 --> 00:54:00,399
Speaker 2: him to didn't want him to be in a rock band,

950
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 2: I guess. So we you know, we took it seriously

951
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 2: and he wasn't prepared to take it the way we

952
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:11,800
Speaker 2: took it, I guess, And so we you know, started

953
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 2: just bringing in new people. We brought in a new

954
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 2: bass player, we brought in a drummer. So we started

955
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 2: moving forward like that, like we didn't there there was

956
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 2: never a time where Chris and I were like, let's

957
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:24,359
Speaker 2: be in a band, let's do this. We just kind

958
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 2: of did it, you know what I mean. It was like,

959
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,439
Speaker 2: all right, well he left, so let's get another guy

960
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:31,359
Speaker 2: in here. And while we're at it, let's get this

961
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 2: bass player, this guy Keith Joyner who played bass with us.

962
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 2: He was a really good musician. And Jeff Sullivan from

963
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:42,880
Speaker 2: Actually who went on to play with Driving Crying. He

964
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 2: was our drummer. And so we just started doing you know,

965
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 2: more and more shows, you know, talent shows or shows

966
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 2: at clubs. The first club show I ever played was

967
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 2: I was fifteen, and we played the day of Live

968
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 2: Aid and it was in Chattanoogam. We drove up there

969
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 2: and opened for this band from California called Yoh, And

970
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 2: you know, we just we packed up to station wagons

971
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 2: full of shit. We drove up there and brought some

972
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,280
Speaker 2: friends and the only people that were in that building

973
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 2: were our friends. And so, you know, we kind of

974
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 2: started pretty quickly. You know.

975
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:26,359
Speaker 1: So you're saying you never played covers, It was always originals.

976
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 2: We did play a couple of covers, so we did

977
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 2: play you know, we played a couple of covers, but

978
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 2: it wasn't like our mainstay, you know, like I'm trying, like,

979
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 2: we played a couple of velvet underground songs and what

980
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 2: else do we play? By the time Towards the end,

981
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 2: we were doing like Down in the Streets by the Stooges,

982
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:58,359
Speaker 2: and then we would do we'd throw in like an

983
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 2: Aerosmith song. We did No No More.

984
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 1: I love that.

985
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:04,720
Speaker 2: Actually, it's a fucking stellar No one.

986
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:06,359
Speaker 1: Ever talked about it.

987
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 2: It's one of my favorite Aerosmith songs. But that was

988
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 2: a night George Jacolia saw us because we actually booked

989
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:18,320
Speaker 2: some Uh. Chris was friends with this girl in Athens

990
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 2: named Velina and she was dating Jefferson Holt who was

991
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 2: managing RAM at the time, and Jefferson was starting a

992
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 2: record label. And also we had been dealing with A

993
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 2: and M Records at this all that this was all

994
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:36,280
Speaker 2: going on at the same time. A friend of ours

995
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:39,839
Speaker 2: who now owns this this I don't even know how

996
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 2: what you would describe it, but you know, have you

997
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 2: heard of thirty Tigers? Of course, yes. So our good

998
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,840
Speaker 2: friend is David Massias, right, So Dave was our first manager.

999
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 2: He worked at the record bar in Atlanta and Chris

1000
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 2: and it was at Lenox Mall, and so Chris and

1001
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 2: I would go in there and Dave was like, I'm

1002
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 2: a drummer. So we're like, well, we live in the

1003
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:04,359
Speaker 2: you know, we live out in the suburbs. You want

1004
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,320
Speaker 2: to come try out. He came out and he was horrible.

1005
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:10,760
Speaker 2: He was like, they actually had songs that I couldn't

1006
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 2: even He's like, I couldn't even hold a beat. He's like,

1007
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 2: all right, I'm not good, but I'll be your manager.

1008
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 2: We're like all right, man, you know, like whatever, we

1009
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 2: liked Dave. He was a great guy, and so Dave

1010
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 2: was like he was really supportive and cool. So he's like,

1011
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 2: here's what I want you to do. I want you

1012
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 2: to go make a demo. You have these songs. I

1013
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 2: really like them. Let's see what we can do. So

1014
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 2: he kind of he booked us. He started booking us

1015
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 2: shows in Atlanta, and he booked us a studio session

1016
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 2: at this guy's house somewhere in like I don't even.

1017
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,479
Speaker 2: It was like Decater, Georgia or something, and this guy

1018
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 2: in the basement had his own studio, and so we

1019
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 2: went in there. We recorded maybe four or five songs,

1020
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 2: and Dave was like, you know, I'm just going to

1021
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 2: send him out and see what happened. So he sent

1022
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 2: him to A and M Records, and he sent and

1023
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 2: one of them made its way to this guy named

1024
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 2: Aaron Jacovis. I don't know if you remember that. Aaron was.

1025
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 2: So Aaron was an A and R guy at A

1026
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 2: and M, and he was like you know, he called

1027
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 2: Dave back. He's like, yeah, I like what I hear.

1028
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 2: Let's try to get him to do some demos or whatever.

1029
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 2: So he paid for us to do demos, Like was

1030
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 2: I guess it was like a technically a developmental deal

1031
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 2: with A and M. So we had two sessions of

1032
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 2: demos for A and M. And we did them in Boone,

1033
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 2: North Carolina, at this guy's house. His name was Steve

1034
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 2: Grombach and he was the producer of the third Rain

1035
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 2: Parade record, Crashing Dream, and so we were excited because

1036
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 2: we loved Drain Parade. We're like, I can't believe we're

1037
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 2: working with this guy. So we drove up there and

1038
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 2: did some stuff and we made Yeah, we did two

1039
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 2: demos with A and M. And they were cool and

1040
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 2: Aaron was kind of cool. And then he lost interest

1041
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 2: and we don't know why. He just kind of stopped

1042
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 2: calling and it just didn't happen. So that's when Jefferson

1043
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 2: got involved. And Jefferson was like, well, I have a show.

1044
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 2: He was booking a show for something up north. He's like,

1045
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 2: you guys want to do the show? And I think

1046
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 2: it was a band called Will and the Bushman and

1047
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 2: it was a It was at a club called Drums

1048
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 2: in New York, and so we were like, all right,

1049
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 2: you know, we'll go check it out. Of course, you know,

1050
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 2: we were kids. We were excited to go. So we

1051
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 2: drove up to New York and the show was in.

1052
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 2: There was a show in d C. There was a

1053
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 2: show in I think it was d C, New York

1054
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:43,920
Speaker 2: and Boston. If I could be convoluting two timelines, but

1055
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 2: I think that was it. And so we went up there.

1056
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:49,160
Speaker 2: We played our set, and that set in particular we

1057
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 2: played I think it was down in the Street or

1058
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 2: it was nineteen sixty nine, but we played that. We

1059
00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 2: played no More and More, and we played our songs

1060
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 2: and we finished, and I remember I was sitting out

1061
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 2: in the audience and there wasn't much of an audience,

1062
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 2: and George was sitting right next to me, and he

1063
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 2: seemed so much older than me, you know, he was,

1064
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 2: he was only like maybe five years older than me.

1065
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 2: But I was like, man, who's this old guy staring

1066
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 2: at me? You know, and he was like, hey, man,

1067
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 2: that was pretty good. I'm like thanks, and he's like,

1068
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 2: I'm George. And we met him and started hanging out.

1069
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 2: And he was an A and R for A and

1070
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 2: M Records on the East Coast, so he was in

1071
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:31,439
Speaker 2: the New York office and he had heard of us.

1072
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 2: He said he was in Atlanta and asked some people

1073
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 2: around if there was some good, you know bands, and

1074
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 2: someone had said us, and so he wanted to come

1075
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 2: see us in New York. So he came down and

1076
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 2: he really liked our covers. He's like, that's really cool

1077
01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 2: that you did No More, No More in that iggy song,

1078
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 2: But I like your other stuff and so it was

1079
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:52,920
Speaker 2: just it kind of kicked everything off, you.

1080
01:00:52,880 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 1: Know, before you get there. Once Chris is out of

1081
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 1: the house and you talk about this era of going

1082
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 1: to school and then playing at night. How much did

1083
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 1: you gig? And since you're playing all originals, where are

1084
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:20,480
Speaker 1: you playing? Are you making any money? What's happening in

1085
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 1: that period?

1086
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 2: So there's no money, I mean maybe fifty bucks, one

1087
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 2: hundred bucks tops, you know, and but we're playing, you know,

1088
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 2: like we would drive up there. There was a club

1089
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 2: in Atlanta called the Cotton Club, which we remember we

1090
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 2: opened for Alex children there one time, which was pretty amazing.

1091
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:42,080
Speaker 2: But that was a local club that we played a lot.

1092
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 2: There was a club called the White Dot. There was

1093
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 2: a club called The Point. There was a club on

1094
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:52,240
Speaker 2: Ponce de Leon that we one of the first shows

1095
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 2: we ever played, like you know, second or third like

1096
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 2: professional shows opening for like Larry T and The Now

1097
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:02,880
Speaker 2: Explosion and that was on Punts and I can't remember

1098
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:06,120
Speaker 2: what this celebrity club, that's what it was. So there

1099
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 2: was a ton of clubs in Atlanta that bands would

1100
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 2: go play and they would play original music. But we

1101
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:13,040
Speaker 2: I mean as far as money goes, we would make

1102
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 2: fifty bucks or one hundred bucks tops the Dugout, which

1103
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:21,000
Speaker 2: was near Emory. But you know, because of the South

1104
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:23,480
Speaker 2: and the way it was, we could drive up to Athens.

1105
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:26,480
Speaker 2: We played the forty Wok Club, and we would play

1106
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 2: the Uptown Lounge and there was another club there called

1107
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 2: the Rockfish that we played. We would drive up to Charlotte.

1108
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 2: We would drive to Columbia. There was a place called

1109
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 2: Rockefellers in Columbia. There was another place. There was a

1110
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 2: place in Jacksonville. Man, what the fuck was the name

1111
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 2: of that place. Einstein at Gogo play in Tuscaloosa a

1112
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 2: lot playing Birmingham, and Birmingham was a couple of hours away,

1113
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:52,520
Speaker 2: so we could go play there. So we built a

1114
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:55,720
Speaker 2: network of shows. We could go play and do you know,

1115
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 2: either our own shows on a Tuesday night for the door,

1116
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 2: you know, or we could go you know, open for

1117
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 2: someone and get a hundred bucks here or there.

1118
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:09,440
Speaker 1: It's hard to win over an audience without a record

1119
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 1: playing original material live. I mean, did you have any fans?

1120
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:15,720
Speaker 1: What was going on?

1121
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 2: I mean in Atlanta people would show up, you know,

1122
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 2: there was a there was you know, it was harder

1123
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 2: to get people. Maybe Athens we had some friends, you know,

1124
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 2: but for the most part it was hard for people.

1125
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 2: It was hard to get people to show up. But

1126
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:38,840
Speaker 2: we kept at it. You know, we all loved doing

1127
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 2: what we were doing and none of that really mattered

1128
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 2: to us, you know, we were just having fun.

1129
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:45,640
Speaker 1: And how often would you play?

1130
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 2: We would probably I mean we got to a point

1131
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:52,919
Speaker 2: where we'd probably do about four to five shows a month,

1132
01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 2: you know, we try to do one every week or

1133
01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:57,920
Speaker 2: every at least every two weeks.

1134
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 1: Okay, from the time that you reference your first professional

1135
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 1: gig till you're sitting next to George Draculius. How long

1136
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 1: a period of time is that?

1137
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:19,160
Speaker 2: It wasn't that long because I don't think I was

1138
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:26,480
Speaker 2: old enough to drive. Maybe I just turned sixteen when

1139
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:29,480
Speaker 2: we went to New York, because I remember driving the

1140
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 2: van and I took a right the wrong turn, and

1141
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 2: I wound up on the access road on the fifty

1142
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 2: ninth Street bridge and there's no rail right there, and

1143
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:43,440
Speaker 2: they're they're like, oh my god, and like we're stuck,

1144
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:46,080
Speaker 2: and you know, I'm just like trying to stay away

1145
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:50,880
Speaker 2: from the fucking falling into the river. So I remember

1146
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 2: driving up there, So I was probably sixteen, So maybe

1147
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:55,040
Speaker 2: it was a year.

1148
01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:01,680
Speaker 1: Okay, when was the dream to me? Was it from

1149
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:04,800
Speaker 1: day one? Or was this a lark and all of

1150
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 1: a sudden you got a reaction? What was going through

1151
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:07,760
Speaker 1: your head?

1152
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:10,360
Speaker 2: It was more of a lark and we got a

1153
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:16,960
Speaker 2: reaction for me, I mean. But also, like unlike most

1154
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 2: of the things in my life, I enjoyed the process.

1155
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:24,200
Speaker 2: I was more interesting, I mean, And that's what happens

1156
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 2: when you're young. You know, the process is more fun

1157
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:30,200
Speaker 2: than the end. You know, you're not looking to an

1158
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 2: end to a means to an end. You're loving the process.

1159
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 2: And like every time we would go out into the

1160
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 2: world and every time we would play one of these shows,

1161
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:43,080
Speaker 2: it was always different. It was always cool, it always

1162
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 2: you know, and it shifted like that. And so the ride,

1163
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:51,840
Speaker 2: the journey was what was amazing. And so we never

1164
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 2: never really I mean, I think everyone was like, oh man,

1165
01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:58,240
Speaker 2: it would be great to be in a huge band,

1166
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:02,520
Speaker 2: but I don't think any one thought about it like that.

1167
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:07,960
Speaker 1: You know. So you're sitting next to George. What happens next?

1168
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 2: So George, you know, introduced himself and George is. We

1169
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:15,880
Speaker 2: love George. I mean, he's such a charming, hilarious person.

1170
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 2: He kind of became our I mean, he really did

1171
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 2: become our mentor you know, he took us in. He

1172
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:24,640
Speaker 2: was like, I like your band, I like what you're doing.

1173
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:28,160
Speaker 2: You know, you have ways to go, but I'm I'd

1174
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:31,120
Speaker 2: like to help you get there, you know, and he would.

1175
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 2: And so we started. That's just basically when we started,

1176
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 2: and you know, he was like this kind of came

1177
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:40,280
Speaker 2: up with a plan to sign us to A and M.

1178
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 2: We needed some more songs, and so he's like, I

1179
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:45,000
Speaker 2: want you and Chris to go home and write, this

1180
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:47,200
Speaker 2: is what I want, you know. And so Chris and

1181
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:51,760
Speaker 2: I really took that. And the good thing about George

1182
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 2: is that, you know, he let us figure it out ourselves.

1183
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:01,880
Speaker 2: He wasn't saying it wasn't the type of producer or

1184
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:04,800
Speaker 2: an R guy that would be like, you got to

1185
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:06,440
Speaker 2: write this kind of song and this is what you

1186
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 2: need to do. But we would send him a song,

1187
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:10,640
Speaker 2: he'd be like, ah, that sounds good, keep at it,

1188
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 2: you know, And that's good and bad and it's not

1189
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:17,120
Speaker 2: really bad. But for us at the time, it was

1190
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:19,480
Speaker 2: frustrating because we're like, well, what are we doing wrong.

1191
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:21,280
Speaker 2: It's like nothing, you just have to come to this

1192
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:24,520
Speaker 2: on your own. And so in that sense, it did

1193
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 2: give us a work ethic to where we would just

1194
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:31,760
Speaker 2: constantly write and constantly write until we reached a level

1195
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:36,560
Speaker 2: where we where we you know, I mean, I kind

1196
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:40,960
Speaker 2: of remember the first song I wrote for Shake Your

1197
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:43,600
Speaker 2: Money Maker. That was on where she Talks to Angels,

1198
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 2: and I was like seventeen and it was an open

1199
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:50,880
Speaker 2: E tuning and I wrote it and I knew something

1200
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 2: different was there. And then one of the next songs

1201
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 2: was Jealous again and I remember we were opening for

1202
01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 2: Driving and Crying in now Spille at the exit in

1203
01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:04,400
Speaker 2: and they heard that song at sound checking there and

1204
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:06,440
Speaker 2: and their guitar player was like, holy shit, what is

1205
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:08,160
Speaker 2: that song? We're like, Oh, it was just one we

1206
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 2: just wrote, you know what I mean, And you know,

1207
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:13,400
Speaker 2: Chris and I had just finished it, and so you

1208
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:15,720
Speaker 2: could kind of tell when the new stuff was coming

1209
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:21,120
Speaker 2: in and it was much better, you know. And that

1210
01:08:21,160 --> 01:08:24,040
Speaker 2: was one hundred percent because of George telling us like,

1211
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:27,439
Speaker 2: that's really good. Keep trying, buddy, you know what I mean, Like,

1212
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:29,400
Speaker 2: that's that's cool, but you got to keep trying to

1213
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:31,800
Speaker 2: keep trying. And so we really, I think it helped

1214
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:37,040
Speaker 2: us hone our uh our writing skills. It helped us,

1215
01:08:38,360 --> 01:08:41,559
Speaker 2: you know, learn a little bit of patients, although we're

1216
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:44,599
Speaker 2: not the most patient people. And it really it really

1217
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:46,840
Speaker 2: brought us to this place, you know, where we were

1218
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:48,880
Speaker 2: where we put in the hard work to make these

1219
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:49,920
Speaker 2: songs the best they could be.

1220
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:54,759
Speaker 1: So from the time you meet George to the time

1221
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 1: you sign a deal when you go in the studio,

1222
01:08:57,320 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 1: how long a time is that.

1223
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:02,360
Speaker 2: So I met George when I was sixteen, I think

1224
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:07,920
Speaker 2: it was sixteen. By eighteen so in two years we

1225
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:11,880
Speaker 2: were making Shake Your Money Maker, we did a demo

1226
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:15,639
Speaker 2: session at the place we were going to record, where

1227
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:18,400
Speaker 2: we just went in and recorded all the framework of

1228
01:09:18,400 --> 01:09:20,160
Speaker 2: all the songs, and then we were going to start

1229
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:22,479
Speaker 2: again in like March. I think it was March or

1230
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:29,280
Speaker 2: April when we started making the record, And so so

1231
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 2: it was a couple of years, and we had a

1232
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:36,599
Speaker 2: couple of times where George would come down, you know,

1233
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:39,559
Speaker 2: because it wasn't like once we met him, we all

1234
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:41,840
Speaker 2: went home. We would talk to him every once in

1235
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:44,080
Speaker 2: a while, we'd write a song, we'd send it to him.

1236
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:48,320
Speaker 2: There wasn't a plan, and so it didn't really start

1237
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:51,799
Speaker 2: moving quickly until we got to let's say, eight songs

1238
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:54,720
Speaker 2: that he thought were worthy of putting our record. You know,

1239
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:57,400
Speaker 2: it's like, all right, these eight are cool. We need

1240
01:09:57,400 --> 01:09:59,200
Speaker 2: a ballot, or we need this, or we need that,

1241
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:01,439
Speaker 2: or we would kind of you know, George. It was

1242
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:04,280
Speaker 2: George had this idea of doing hard to handle and

1243
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:10,200
Speaker 2: you know, and yeah, and and so those were the

1244
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:12,960
Speaker 2: kind of suggestions that he brought, you know. And I

1245
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:15,519
Speaker 2: think it was Chris that said, well, I don't want

1246
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:18,200
Speaker 2: to do an Otis redding. I'm not. You know, I'm

1247
01:10:18,240 --> 01:10:20,280
Speaker 2: like twenty years old. I don't want to bust out

1248
01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:23,320
Speaker 2: an otis writing song. But he said, what if you

1249
01:10:23,360 --> 01:10:25,519
Speaker 2: do it like walk this way, you know what I mean,

1250
01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:27,880
Speaker 2: like a more rock and roll version. So that's what

1251
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:30,360
Speaker 2: was cool with it. And as time went on and

1252
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:32,640
Speaker 2: as more songs went and that he liked and we

1253
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:35,800
Speaker 2: were moving towards something, that's when it started speeding up.

1254
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:39,760
Speaker 2: And so by the time I had like she Talks

1255
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:42,960
Speaker 2: to Angels, which was set, I was seventeen. So within

1256
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:45,839
Speaker 2: those two years is really you know, when we started

1257
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:47,040
Speaker 2: making the record.

1258
01:10:47,200 --> 01:10:49,760
Speaker 1: Well what point do you make a deal with Rick

1259
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:51,200
Speaker 1: Rubin and Death American.

1260
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:54,719
Speaker 2: We didn't sign a deal until after we made the record,

1261
01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:59,840
Speaker 2: and you know, we never really saw any money until

1262
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:02,240
Speaker 2: after the record was done. Like Rick just kind of

1263
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:06,240
Speaker 2: paid for stuff, and but you know it was it

1264
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:11,280
Speaker 2: was real loose and not you know, but we trusted George,

1265
01:11:11,360 --> 01:11:13,000
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like we just he was like,

1266
01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:14,679
Speaker 2: let's go make a record. We're like, all right, great,

1267
01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 2: so we go in. We made this record. Took us

1268
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:21,840
Speaker 2: a month. It costs like seventy thousand dollars to make.

1269
01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:24,120
Speaker 2: I remember because I was a kid and I was like, wow, you.

1270
01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:27,120
Speaker 1: Know, well, who was it George's seventy k who was paying?

1271
01:11:27,200 --> 01:11:32,880
Speaker 2: No, it was Rick. But like George wouldn't buy you know,

1272
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:36,120
Speaker 2: there was no food, there was no strings, there was

1273
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:38,920
Speaker 2: no like the one thing they paid for. It was

1274
01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:43,000
Speaker 2: like I had this telecaster and it needed it was

1275
01:11:43,080 --> 01:11:46,160
Speaker 2: totally needed to be refretted, and George paid for that.

1276
01:11:46,479 --> 01:11:48,200
Speaker 2: And that was about it, you know what I mean.

1277
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:50,680
Speaker 2: It was like nothing else. And so we would go

1278
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:52,559
Speaker 2: to you know, we would go there and we'd be like, man,

1279
01:11:52,600 --> 01:11:55,040
Speaker 2: we're hungry, and George'd be like, here when everyone share

1280
01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:57,479
Speaker 2: my big goal or whatever it was, or you know,

1281
01:11:57,560 --> 01:11:59,599
Speaker 2: he would buy some fries and be like, everyone share

1282
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:03,320
Speaker 2: my frid like it wasn't you know which at the time,

1283
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:05,600
Speaker 2: we didn't care because it was funny, you know, like

1284
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:08,360
Speaker 2: we were just like whatever, we're making a record. But

1285
01:12:08,520 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 2: the studio and all that was paid for by Rick.

1286
01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:14,200
Speaker 2: I'm assuming, you know, we never really know what happened

1287
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:19,000
Speaker 2: with that. But and then you know, the record was finished.

1288
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:21,720
Speaker 2: We didn't have a manager yet, so then we had

1289
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:26,439
Speaker 2: started looking for management, you know what I mean, And

1290
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:30,760
Speaker 2: that's when we decided to you know, that's when the

1291
01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:35,959
Speaker 2: late the contract came in and there was this attorney

1292
01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:41,559
Speaker 2: in Atlanta who it wasn't great and he basically it

1293
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:44,519
Speaker 2: was a really shit deal and it was like Rick

1294
01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:46,599
Speaker 2: owned a lot of stuff that he shouldn't have owned,

1295
01:12:47,040 --> 01:12:49,439
Speaker 2: and we were getting paid nothing. And the guy was like, look,

1296
01:12:49,439 --> 01:12:50,920
Speaker 2: this is the best you're going to get. You might

1297
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:54,479
Speaker 2: as well sign it, and you know, being teenagers, were like,

1298
01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:56,840
Speaker 2: all right, you know, I guess we should sign it.

1299
01:12:56,920 --> 01:13:01,599
Speaker 2: And you know, but we got out of that quickly.

1300
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:04,840
Speaker 2: We hired a manager that was that was able to

1301
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:08,160
Speaker 2: see and we found a way to renegotiate and get

1302
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:08,960
Speaker 2: all of it back.

1303
01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:13,080
Speaker 1: Was that before or after the record came out.

1304
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:16,240
Speaker 2: It was after the record came out we had to

1305
01:13:16,280 --> 01:13:20,600
Speaker 2: deal with the deal that we had. But then a

1306
01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:24,439
Speaker 2: year into the tour, we discovered that, you know, as

1307
01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:29,320
Speaker 2: the record was kind of taking off, Rick didn't pick

1308
01:13:29,400 --> 01:13:32,760
Speaker 2: up the option for the second record and he just

1309
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:36,080
Speaker 2: forgot and so we were five million records sold by then,

1310
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:39,280
Speaker 2: and we were lying. And so our manager was like

1311
01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:42,160
Speaker 2: because he went to him and good our manager went

1312
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:44,320
Speaker 2: to him in good faith and just said like, come on, man,

1313
01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:46,519
Speaker 2: this is a shit deal. You know, this is a

1314
01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:49,640
Speaker 2: shit deal. Let's make it right, you know what I mean, like,

1315
01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:53,439
Speaker 2: let's let's let's make this right. And Rick was like, nope,

1316
01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:56,200
Speaker 2: I'm not doing it. That's it. I'm not touching it.

1317
01:13:56,320 --> 01:14:00,640
Speaker 2: And so a year in or maybe it was a

1318
01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:03,360
Speaker 2: year or two, I can't remember the exact time. Whenever,

1319
01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:05,000
Speaker 2: the time was that he was supposed to pick up

1320
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:08,040
Speaker 2: the option. Our manager was like, he didn't pick up

1321
01:14:08,040 --> 01:14:10,880
Speaker 2: the option, so we're going to go and you know,

1322
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:12,560
Speaker 2: I'm going to give him one more chance. Maybe he

1323
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:14,439
Speaker 2: doesn't do it, then we're going to play hardball. And

1324
01:14:14,960 --> 01:14:18,760
Speaker 2: that's what happened, and so we got everything back retroactively

1325
01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:22,760
Speaker 2: signed a huge you know, it was it was like

1326
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:26,559
Speaker 2: along the lines of like a Celine Dion deal, which

1327
01:14:26,600 --> 01:14:28,919
Speaker 2: is one of the biggest deals signed in the industry

1328
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:32,559
Speaker 2: at that time. And so it was a great deal

1329
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:34,599
Speaker 2: for us and it worked, and you know, so we

1330
01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:36,720
Speaker 2: were able to reclaim a lot of this.

1331
01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:38,920
Speaker 1: Who was the manager and who was the lawyer at

1332
01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:40,000
Speaker 1: that point.

1333
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:43,479
Speaker 2: Our manager was a guy named Pete Angelus and our

1334
01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:45,360
Speaker 2: lawyer was John Branca.

1335
01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:50,080
Speaker 1: Okay brinca obviously experienced Pete Angelus has all this history.

1336
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:53,760
Speaker 1: He's a wild character with David Lee Roth, how was

1337
01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:56,080
Speaker 1: your experience with Pete?

1338
01:14:56,479 --> 01:15:02,000
Speaker 2: He you know Pete when we first started, like after

1339
01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:04,600
Speaker 2: the record was done, we changed our name because we

1340
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:07,559
Speaker 2: made the record under mister Crow's Garden and that was

1341
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:11,519
Speaker 2: our more like jangly rimy kind of name that we liked.

1342
01:15:12,040 --> 01:15:14,479
Speaker 2: And everyone agreed at the label, like you got to

1343
01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:18,240
Speaker 2: change your name. Your your sound has changed, this is

1344
01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:20,519
Speaker 2: a new thing. Let's do this, and you know, so

1345
01:15:20,560 --> 01:15:23,880
Speaker 2: we kind of kicked things back and forth, and once

1346
01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:26,400
Speaker 2: the record was done, the name was the Black Crows.

1347
01:15:26,479 --> 01:15:30,680
Speaker 2: This is what it was going to be. We you know,

1348
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:33,080
Speaker 2: we were looking for managers and there were a couple

1349
01:15:33,120 --> 01:15:35,200
Speaker 2: of guys out there that were interested, and one of

1350
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:37,840
Speaker 2: them was Rob Stewart's manager, and one of them was

1351
01:15:37,840 --> 01:15:43,800
Speaker 2: Pete Angelis and we were talking to for a minute,

1352
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:46,280
Speaker 2: but I think he obviously he had his hands full

1353
01:15:46,439 --> 01:15:53,760
Speaker 2: Peter Minch and Bernstein and then some smaller managers. There

1354
01:15:54,120 --> 01:15:59,600
Speaker 2: was a guy in Atlanta that was interested, but we

1355
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:02,679
Speaker 2: just like Pete, you know, like he flew down to Atlanta,

1356
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:04,560
Speaker 2: he came to see us. We did a show. He

1357
01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:06,880
Speaker 2: set up a show for us, and like we gave

1358
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:11,240
Speaker 2: away free alcohol and like twelve people showed. It was

1359
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:13,639
Speaker 2: like and we were you know, Chris and I were like, man,

1360
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:16,200
Speaker 2: only you know, can't even give away tickets or whatever,

1361
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:18,960
Speaker 2: and so but it was cool. He was there, he

1362
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:23,280
Speaker 2: got to see it, and we just really liked him

1363
01:16:23,320 --> 01:16:27,160
Speaker 2: as a person personally. But I remember us always saying like, man,

1364
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:29,600
Speaker 2: we're not David ly Roth and that whole thing is

1365
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:32,519
Speaker 2: not us and that's not anything that we want. He goes, no,

1366
01:16:32,680 --> 01:16:35,879
Speaker 2: that's Dave. I understand that this is you. I totally

1367
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:41,400
Speaker 2: get it. And so, you know, but yeah, he was

1368
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:43,679
Speaker 2: He was smart, and he had a vision and we,

1369
01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:46,559
Speaker 2: you know, we appreciated his vision. And that's who he chose.

1370
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:48,320
Speaker 1: And how long did he last?

1371
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:52,520
Speaker 2: He was our manager for like twenty four years?

1372
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:58,080
Speaker 1: Okay, how long after the album is finished is it released?

1373
01:17:00,479 --> 01:17:04,680
Speaker 2: So we finished in the summer of eighty nine and

1374
01:17:04,720 --> 01:17:06,200
Speaker 2: it came out in March of ninety.

1375
01:17:07,880 --> 01:17:12,519
Speaker 1: What transpires in those six months and what happens in

1376
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:15,879
Speaker 1: terms of the band working Once the record comes out.

1377
01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:21,559
Speaker 2: We start doing more shows. We now were signed to

1378
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:24,439
Speaker 2: a label, we have a record, and so we can

1379
01:17:24,479 --> 01:17:27,080
Speaker 2: start doing more and more. You know, we have the

1380
01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:29,760
Speaker 2: opportunity to do more stuff. And we started opening for

1381
01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:32,400
Speaker 2: bigger bands. I remember we played with the Red Hot

1382
01:17:32,479 --> 01:17:36,439
Speaker 2: Chili Peppers in Atlanta at the Fox. When they were

1383
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:41,680
Speaker 2: playing there, we played with this band that was they

1384
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:45,479
Speaker 2: were like an indie band at the time, like a

1385
01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:47,920
Speaker 2: college band called the Rave Ups. No, it wasn't the

1386
01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:50,599
Speaker 2: Rave Ups. I can't remember the name of the band,

1387
01:17:50,600 --> 01:17:53,000
Speaker 2: but we opened for them as Charlotte. So we started

1388
01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:55,600
Speaker 2: getting more and more shows like that. There was a

1389
01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:59,120
Speaker 2: band in Atlanta called the swimming Pool Cues and so

1390
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:01,080
Speaker 2: I remember playing with them one New Year, so we

1391
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:03,679
Speaker 2: would We started like adding and ramping up the amount

1392
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:08,080
Speaker 2: of shows we were playing, and we found a manager.

1393
01:18:08,240 --> 01:18:10,760
Speaker 2: That's when we hired Pete. We hooked up with this

1394
01:18:11,640 --> 01:18:17,679
Speaker 2: guy who worked for the Georgia Satellites. His name was Kevin,

1395
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:20,720
Speaker 2: and he let us rehearse in his basement because that's

1396
01:18:20,720 --> 01:18:23,960
Speaker 2: where the satellites rehearsed. So I remember rehearsing down in

1397
01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:27,240
Speaker 2: the basement and he was on tour and we became

1398
01:18:27,360 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 2: and we were we paid the first month or so.

1399
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:33,080
Speaker 2: When he came home from tour, he was like, man,

1400
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:34,880
Speaker 2: I really like your band. I want to let you

1401
01:18:35,640 --> 01:18:37,880
Speaker 2: rehearse for free. I love what you're doing. Or whatever,

1402
01:18:38,320 --> 01:18:41,320
Speaker 2: and he became a friend of ours and he was

1403
01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:44,479
Speaker 2: kind of cool, put us on some he helped book

1404
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:46,960
Speaker 2: us some shows too. Before this was all before we

1405
01:18:47,040 --> 01:18:51,880
Speaker 2: hired Pete, because Pete probably wasn't hired until January, so

1406
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:54,360
Speaker 2: it was between the end of the record in January.

1407
01:18:54,360 --> 01:18:56,479
Speaker 2: It was about five or six months that we did

1408
01:18:57,000 --> 01:18:59,320
Speaker 2: for us. At the time, it felt like an eternity,

1409
01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:03,120
Speaker 2: you know. But you know, you look back now, you're like, man,

1410
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:09,200
Speaker 2: that was nothing. And so, but you know, we kind

1411
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:11,720
Speaker 2: of used his house as a headquarters to talk to

1412
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:14,519
Speaker 2: these people, to talk to managers and to and we

1413
01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:16,959
Speaker 2: asked his advice because he had been in the industry

1414
01:19:16,960 --> 01:19:21,439
Speaker 2: and we thought he knew something and so, but it

1415
01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:23,639
Speaker 2: turned out to bite us in the ass. The night

1416
01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:26,840
Speaker 2: before we left, or the week before we left to

1417
01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:29,360
Speaker 2: go on tour, his wife was pregnant. He didn't know

1418
01:19:29,439 --> 01:19:32,200
Speaker 2: she was pregnant. He was going to be our tour manager,

1419
01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:36,599
Speaker 2: and she gave birth unexpectedly all of a sudden. He's

1420
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:42,640
Speaker 2: a father, it's all. It's a whole story. She was

1421
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:45,639
Speaker 2: a larger woman, and I guess she didn't tell him

1422
01:19:45,760 --> 01:19:47,920
Speaker 2: that she was pregnant. And then there was some drugs

1423
01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:54,680
Speaker 2: involved and so whatever. But so she, you know, all

1424
01:19:54,680 --> 01:19:57,519
Speaker 2: of a sudden he found himself as I'm a father,

1425
01:19:58,680 --> 01:20:01,479
Speaker 2: and so he was going to be our tour manager,

1426
01:20:01,479 --> 01:20:03,120
Speaker 2: but he's like, I can't. I have to stick with

1427
01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:06,840
Speaker 2: the satellites because they're more solid for me. So he

1428
01:20:06,920 --> 01:20:09,280
Speaker 2: let us go and that was cool, and then a

1429
01:20:09,360 --> 01:20:11,760
Speaker 2: year later, when we hit a million records, he came

1430
01:20:11,840 --> 01:20:13,960
Speaker 2: down to see us and started asking us for money

1431
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:18,680
Speaker 2: and then started writing threatening factxes, saying he's gonna you know,

1432
01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:21,240
Speaker 2: we promised him something and we owe him this and

1433
01:20:21,479 --> 01:20:24,160
Speaker 2: wants fifty thousand dollars and if we don't pay him,

1434
01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:26,479
Speaker 2: it's going to get ugly, and just more and more.

1435
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:28,960
Speaker 2: It kind of ramped up, and then he wound up

1436
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:32,559
Speaker 2: suing us at the end of shaking money Maker for

1437
01:20:32,600 --> 01:20:34,960
Speaker 2: like two point two million dollars or something. That's what

1438
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:36,040
Speaker 2: he was trying to sue us for.

1439
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:37,599
Speaker 1: Gow did that end up?

1440
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:42,120
Speaker 2: Well, he sued us and he lost, and we or No.

1441
01:20:42,360 --> 01:20:44,559
Speaker 2: It was a it was kind of a hung jury,

1442
01:20:44,560 --> 01:20:48,719
Speaker 2: and it was a weird scene because after the trial

1443
01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:52,760
Speaker 2: you can interview the jury and see what the thinking was.

1444
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:57,599
Speaker 2: And apparently there was one guy that had convinced half

1445
01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:00,840
Speaker 2: of the jury that he was going to sell a

1446
01:21:00,920 --> 01:21:05,880
Speaker 2: book of the trial, and so he got half the

1447
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:09,720
Speaker 2: jury to sign on to his book by using, you know,

1448
01:21:09,840 --> 01:21:13,559
Speaker 2: like a like some sort of napkin, which is what

1449
01:21:13,680 --> 01:21:17,160
Speaker 2: the guy like, we wrote, we wrote about this guy,

1450
01:21:17,200 --> 01:21:19,200
Speaker 2: you know, Kevin. We're like, you're one of us, Kevin,

1451
01:21:19,400 --> 01:21:23,040
Speaker 2: you know all these things, and then he said that

1452
01:21:23,080 --> 01:21:25,000
Speaker 2: and it was on literally on a napkin, and he

1453
01:21:25,040 --> 01:21:27,600
Speaker 2: said that was a contract that promised him, you know,

1454
01:21:28,400 --> 01:21:32,200
Speaker 2: seventeen percent of all proceeds from the record, Like we

1455
01:21:32,200 --> 01:21:34,840
Speaker 2: were just saying, we're going to miss you, you know

1456
01:21:34,840 --> 01:21:37,840
Speaker 2: what I mean, It was like that. And so but

1457
01:21:37,960 --> 01:21:41,879
Speaker 2: this guy who was some finance guy on the jury

1458
01:21:42,439 --> 01:21:45,280
Speaker 2: convinced he's like a school teacher, and a person that

1459
01:21:45,360 --> 01:21:49,679
Speaker 2: worked for you know, Bell South at the time, which

1460
01:21:49,720 --> 01:21:51,920
Speaker 2: was like a phone company, and someone that was like

1461
01:21:51,960 --> 01:21:54,160
Speaker 2: a truck driver. He convinced them they were going to

1462
01:21:54,240 --> 01:21:56,760
Speaker 2: make a lot of money. So they voted against us.

1463
01:21:57,080 --> 01:21:59,479
Speaker 2: The other people are like, this guy's fucking crazy. He's

1464
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:01,559
Speaker 2: trying to take advantage of you. We see all this

1465
01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:04,120
Speaker 2: that's going on. So it was a hung jury, and

1466
01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:06,360
Speaker 2: instead of us going back to trial and giving the

1467
01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:10,479
Speaker 2: attorneys another couple hundred thousand dollars. We just decided to settle,

1468
01:22:10,479 --> 01:22:13,479
Speaker 2: and our manager Pete flew down and negotiated with them

1469
01:22:13,880 --> 01:22:16,559
Speaker 2: and wound and finished it in a day, and it

1470
01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:18,559
Speaker 2: was done and we never had to deal with it again.

1471
01:22:26,920 --> 01:22:31,160
Speaker 1: Okay, from the outside, it looks like an instant's success.

1472
01:22:31,240 --> 01:22:33,519
Speaker 1: What was it like from the inside.

1473
01:22:34,120 --> 01:22:36,760
Speaker 2: From the inside, Yes, you're correct, it does look like

1474
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:40,200
Speaker 2: that from the outside. From the inside, I mean, just

1475
01:22:40,240 --> 01:22:42,439
Speaker 2: by nature of being teen, I mean, you know, I

1476
01:22:42,479 --> 01:22:46,120
Speaker 2: was still a teenager. It seemed to take forever. I mean,

1477
01:22:46,120 --> 01:22:48,000
Speaker 2: not only was I a teenager, but most of it

1478
01:22:48,000 --> 01:22:49,120
Speaker 2: I was still in high school.

1479
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:53,640
Speaker 1: So you know, I was like, I'm actually referring to

1480
01:22:53,680 --> 01:22:56,840
Speaker 1: when the record is finally released. Oh, it seemed like

1481
01:22:56,880 --> 01:22:58,960
Speaker 1: it was successful instantly.

1482
01:23:00,160 --> 01:23:02,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, we did two tours opening

1483
01:23:03,200 --> 01:23:07,200
Speaker 2: for these club bands. One was called a junk one

1484
01:23:07,280 --> 01:23:10,120
Speaker 2: was called Junkyard, and one was called MSG, which is

1485
01:23:10,160 --> 01:23:15,479
Speaker 2: McAuley Shanker Group. And so McCauley Shanker Group was Michael

1486
01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:19,720
Speaker 2: Shanker and another guy McCauley, who was a singer, and

1487
01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:23,519
Speaker 2: you know, they would do clubs and Junkyard did clubs,

1488
01:23:23,560 --> 01:23:25,640
Speaker 2: and so it was like two four. I think it

1489
01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:28,120
Speaker 2: was like four or six week lags around the States,

1490
01:23:28,160 --> 01:23:30,960
Speaker 2: just right back to back, and then we got Aerosmith

1491
01:23:31,720 --> 01:23:34,880
Speaker 2: and Aerosmith was kind of the first arena shows, big

1492
01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:39,000
Speaker 2: shows we were playing. And so right before Aerosmith, we

1493
01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:41,200
Speaker 2: flew to Europe to do a quick stint our, first

1494
01:23:41,200 --> 01:23:44,439
Speaker 2: time in Europe, came back to do Aerosmith, and it

1495
01:23:44,479 --> 01:23:46,200
Speaker 2: was just kind of growing, but it was it was

1496
01:23:46,240 --> 01:23:49,439
Speaker 2: growing steady, but it wasn't like it didn't feel like

1497
01:23:49,479 --> 01:23:53,719
Speaker 2: an you know, it's basically a March to December where

1498
01:23:53,760 --> 01:23:57,280
Speaker 2: we in December we hit a million records, the first million,

1499
01:23:58,000 --> 01:24:02,200
Speaker 2: and so that's you know, nine months and so for

1500
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:06,360
Speaker 2: us and being on tour and how time moved back

1501
01:24:06,400 --> 01:24:09,120
Speaker 2: then and how we were as kids because I was

1502
01:24:09,240 --> 01:24:13,120
Speaker 2: I didn't turn twenty, so you know, you're dealing with

1503
01:24:14,439 --> 01:24:16,800
Speaker 2: you know, you're dealing with this. It seems like a

1504
01:24:16,840 --> 01:24:20,360
Speaker 2: long time, but it wasn't like painstaking because we're always

1505
01:24:20,360 --> 01:24:23,360
Speaker 2: doing something. You know, it's Junkyard and then it's this

1506
01:24:23,479 --> 01:24:26,200
Speaker 2: other band, and then it's Robert Plan you know, Aerosmith,

1507
01:24:26,280 --> 01:24:29,439
Speaker 2: Robert plant Heart. Then we played we did a headline

1508
01:24:29,439 --> 01:24:31,479
Speaker 2: club show, and then we played with Eazy Top, and

1509
01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:33,800
Speaker 2: then we finally got to the point where we could

1510
01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:36,479
Speaker 2: headline our own theaters because we got kicked off as

1511
01:24:36,479 --> 01:24:41,240
Speaker 2: Easy Top and so, you know, and then once we

1512
01:24:41,360 --> 01:24:44,639
Speaker 2: joined Easy Top in January, we were selling like two

1513
01:24:44,680 --> 01:24:47,599
Speaker 2: hundred thousand albums a week and so it quickly went

1514
01:24:47,600 --> 01:24:50,559
Speaker 2: from a million to three million albums like like that.

1515
01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:53,320
Speaker 2: And then that's when it like that January is when

1516
01:24:53,320 --> 01:24:55,840
Speaker 2: it just seemed to just launch, you know what I mean.

1517
01:24:55,880 --> 01:24:57,960
Speaker 2: And that's when it kicked in and we're like, holy shit,

1518
01:24:58,160 --> 01:24:59,200
Speaker 2: like this is a big deal.

1519
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:03,559
Speaker 1: So how'd you cope with the success?

1520
01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:10,040
Speaker 2: Uh? You know, everyone, you know, when you're when you're

1521
01:25:10,080 --> 01:25:12,559
Speaker 2: on tour, you're in a bubble. You know. Some people

1522
01:25:12,640 --> 01:25:15,040
Speaker 2: call your bus a submarine, you know what I mean.

1523
01:25:15,680 --> 01:25:20,080
Speaker 2: And so we're and and it's very insular. So the

1524
01:25:20,120 --> 01:25:23,920
Speaker 2: world was changing around us, but we were still on

1525
01:25:23,960 --> 01:25:30,120
Speaker 2: this one path. It didn't, you know. So when we

1526
01:25:30,200 --> 01:25:33,200
Speaker 2: first did our first bunch of theater shows in America,

1527
01:25:33,280 --> 01:25:35,360
Speaker 2: that felt like a big deal. We were on the

1528
01:25:35,400 --> 01:25:38,000
Speaker 2: cover Rolling Stone. We got kicked off as Easy Top

1529
01:25:38,080 --> 01:25:42,960
Speaker 2: because Chris was you know, ZZ was at the time

1530
01:25:43,080 --> 01:25:45,479
Speaker 2: was sponsored by bud Light. No, it wasn't bud Light.

1531
01:25:45,520 --> 01:25:49,760
Speaker 2: It was Miller Lte, and so, you know, Chris was

1532
01:25:50,240 --> 01:25:53,639
Speaker 2: becoming slightly disillusioned with some of the older bands because

1533
01:25:53,680 --> 01:25:58,000
Speaker 2: they were, you know, using backing tape or taking money

1534
01:25:58,000 --> 01:26:02,680
Speaker 2: from corporations and and he's he's a romantic, so he

1535
01:26:02,880 --> 01:26:05,000
Speaker 2: was like at the time, he was like, that's kind

1536
01:26:05,040 --> 01:26:08,160
Speaker 2: of bullshit, you know, like, and so he would say

1537
01:26:08,200 --> 01:26:10,320
Speaker 2: some things like we're brought to you by no one

1538
01:26:10,439 --> 01:26:14,040
Speaker 2: or whatever it may be. And then ZZ, I mean

1539
01:26:14,080 --> 01:26:17,080
Speaker 2: Miller Lte started getting up tight about what we were saying,

1540
01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:22,040
Speaker 2: and so they started complaining to Bill Hamm, who was

1541
01:26:22,120 --> 01:26:26,240
Speaker 2: Zz's manager. And Bill Hamm would come to us, started

1542
01:26:26,240 --> 01:26:28,439
Speaker 2: coming to us and our manager and saying like, hey,

1543
01:26:28,479 --> 01:26:30,360
Speaker 2: you need to tell your singer to watch his mouth

1544
01:26:30,439 --> 01:26:33,120
Speaker 2: or whatever. And that was all Chris needed to make

1545
01:26:33,160 --> 01:26:35,559
Speaker 2: sure he didn't watch his mouth. It would just he

1546
01:26:35,560 --> 01:26:39,720
Speaker 2: would just go out and double down and randomly, We're

1547
01:26:39,760 --> 01:26:42,559
Speaker 2: playing in Atlanta at the at the Omni. There's three

1548
01:26:42,680 --> 01:26:49,599
Speaker 2: nights at the Omni, and we were doing it. It

1549
01:26:49,640 --> 01:26:55,840
Speaker 2: was scheduled to be a like a big interview with

1550
01:26:55,960 --> 01:26:58,040
Speaker 2: Rolling Stone, but it wasn't a cover. So they sent

1551
01:26:58,120 --> 01:27:01,160
Speaker 2: David Frick down. So David was down there to do

1552
01:27:01,200 --> 01:27:04,439
Speaker 2: this and we got That was the night we got

1553
01:27:04,520 --> 01:27:06,880
Speaker 2: kicked off, and they came in and they're like, all right,

1554
01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:09,960
Speaker 2: you know, you're off the you're off this tour. And

1555
01:27:10,040 --> 01:27:11,960
Speaker 2: so we were like, all right, man, you know, and

1556
01:27:12,240 --> 01:27:14,680
Speaker 2: it and then it was just big news. The next day,

1557
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:17,200
Speaker 2: was on the cover of the Atlanta Journal Constitution. The

1558
01:27:17,240 --> 01:27:21,360
Speaker 2: next day, you know, all of these things happened and

1559
01:27:21,479 --> 01:27:25,400
Speaker 2: then and it was for you know, the reason, like

1560
01:27:25,479 --> 01:27:28,880
Speaker 2: you know, Chris said, it's bullshit and I'm not gonna

1561
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:30,960
Speaker 2: I'm I don't work for Miller Light and fuck those

1562
01:27:31,000 --> 01:27:32,719
Speaker 2: guys and blah blah blah blah blah, and it turned

1563
01:27:32,720 --> 01:27:36,320
Speaker 2: into this thing. And so that then pushed us to

1564
01:27:36,360 --> 01:27:38,559
Speaker 2: be on the cover Rolling Stone, and it pushed us

1565
01:27:38,560 --> 01:27:44,519
Speaker 2: into this next level. And so you could kind of

1566
01:27:44,560 --> 01:27:49,880
Speaker 2: tell at that moment that things were getting big, you know,

1567
01:27:50,040 --> 01:27:53,960
Speaker 2: because it was constant, certain things were consequential. And then

1568
01:27:54,000 --> 01:27:56,320
Speaker 2: the next and so we got kicked off as Easy Top,

1569
01:27:56,360 --> 01:27:59,679
Speaker 2: and that's when we booked our whole summer headline theater

1570
01:27:59,800 --> 01:28:03,840
Speaker 2: to Or with this band called Jellyfish opening for us,

1571
01:28:04,400 --> 01:28:07,920
Speaker 2: which was an amazing band and we loved touring with them,

1572
01:28:07,960 --> 01:28:10,000
Speaker 2: but we were playing you know, four or five thousand

1573
01:28:10,080 --> 01:28:16,479
Speaker 2: seat places. We played the Santa Barbara County Bowl. You know,

1574
01:28:17,120 --> 01:28:20,720
Speaker 2: we were playing these places and we're headlining, all of them

1575
01:28:20,720 --> 01:28:24,479
Speaker 2: are selling out, and it was like shit, you know,

1576
01:28:24,560 --> 01:28:29,280
Speaker 2: this is amazing. And then after that ended, we went

1577
01:28:29,320 --> 01:28:31,800
Speaker 2: to Europe and we did Monsters of Rock and Stadiums

1578
01:28:31,800 --> 01:28:37,400
Speaker 2: with ac DC and Metallica, which was phenomenal too, because

1579
01:28:37,439 --> 01:28:39,679
Speaker 2: we're playing in front of one hundred thousand people a night.

1580
01:28:39,720 --> 01:28:42,800
Speaker 2: We're going up there. I mean, although we were the

1581
01:28:42,840 --> 01:28:45,160
Speaker 2: opening band or one of the opening bands, I can't

1582
01:28:45,160 --> 01:28:48,280
Speaker 2: remember if we were first or second sometimes, but it

1583
01:28:48,400 --> 01:28:51,840
Speaker 2: was like, you know, ACDC came over and they were like,

1584
01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:54,639
Speaker 2: we love your band. It's proper rock and roll band.

1585
01:28:54,720 --> 01:28:59,400
Speaker 2: And you know, we had played some shows with Aerosmith

1586
01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:03,240
Speaker 2: and Metallica the summer, so we knew those guys and

1587
01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:04,920
Speaker 2: and it was just this thing and it was like

1588
01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:08,679
Speaker 2: fuck man. We played Amsterdam and Malcolm and Angus came

1589
01:29:08,680 --> 01:29:11,760
Speaker 2: to see us at the Paradiso on a night off,

1590
01:29:11,800 --> 01:29:14,000
Speaker 2: which we thought was really cool. And then we played

1591
01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:16,479
Speaker 2: that show in Moscow. So there was that big show

1592
01:29:16,520 --> 01:29:19,559
Speaker 2: in Moscow that where there was you know, a million

1593
01:29:19,640 --> 01:29:23,440
Speaker 2: people that showed up to it. Was US a CDC Metallica,

1594
01:29:23,479 --> 01:29:26,320
Speaker 2: I think Pantera was there, and it was right after

1595
01:29:26,360 --> 01:29:30,559
Speaker 2: the fall of you know, communists basically, and so we

1596
01:29:30,560 --> 01:29:34,280
Speaker 2: were flown over and that was kind of the pinnacle

1597
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:38,240
Speaker 2: of everything, you know, where it was just like things

1598
01:29:38,240 --> 01:29:42,280
Speaker 2: were really amazing. And you know, it's always to me,

1599
01:29:42,320 --> 01:29:44,479
Speaker 2: I always like and it to like climbing Mount Everest.

1600
01:29:44,600 --> 01:29:47,640
Speaker 2: You know, we as a group of people over it.

1601
01:29:47,640 --> 01:29:50,559
Speaker 2: Because that tour lasted eighteen months or twenty months and

1602
01:29:50,600 --> 01:29:53,960
Speaker 2: three hundred and fifty shows and we just we just

1603
01:29:54,080 --> 01:29:56,879
Speaker 2: climbed this mountain, you know what I mean, and together

1604
01:29:57,560 --> 01:30:00,960
Speaker 2: and that was a really cool thing to be able

1605
01:30:01,000 --> 01:30:01,920
Speaker 2: to do, you know.

1606
01:30:03,240 --> 01:30:06,320
Speaker 1: Okay, when did you see your first check?

1607
01:30:09,080 --> 01:30:12,560
Speaker 2: The first big check we got We signed a publishing

1608
01:30:12,600 --> 01:30:14,759
Speaker 2: deal and that was a big check and that really

1609
01:30:15,960 --> 01:30:21,920
Speaker 2: that really put a lot in perspective. So that was

1610
01:30:21,960 --> 01:30:24,840
Speaker 2: about a year, maybe fourteen months into the tour.

1611
01:30:27,080 --> 01:30:30,640
Speaker 1: So when you got money first on the contract? Was

1612
01:30:30,680 --> 01:30:32,920
Speaker 1: it just you and your brother forget the song, right,

1613
01:30:32,920 --> 01:30:35,200
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the record deal? Was it just you

1614
01:30:35,240 --> 01:30:37,560
Speaker 1: and your brother? Are all members of the band.

1615
01:30:38,560 --> 01:30:42,799
Speaker 2: It was all of us, Okay, I remember correctly.

1616
01:30:43,280 --> 01:30:45,720
Speaker 1: So when you get the first money, what do you

1617
01:30:45,800 --> 01:30:46,280
Speaker 1: do with it?

1618
01:30:51,640 --> 01:30:54,320
Speaker 2: Well, we never got any money from Rick, and it

1619
01:30:54,400 --> 01:30:57,720
Speaker 2: wasn't and we didn't and we were still we were

1620
01:30:57,800 --> 01:31:02,000
Speaker 2: so unrecoup because we were taking so much, you know,

1621
01:31:02,040 --> 01:31:04,720
Speaker 2: it was like tour support, all these different things, and

1622
01:31:04,840 --> 01:31:09,560
Speaker 2: Rick had some interesting ways of accounting, so there was

1623
01:31:09,600 --> 01:31:11,840
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff that was in there. It wasn't

1624
01:31:11,920 --> 01:31:14,680
Speaker 2: until that publishing check that Chris and I got, we

1625
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:18,000
Speaker 2: each got one, that I really had a lot of

1626
01:31:18,040 --> 01:31:20,920
Speaker 2: money in our pockets for the first time. And I

1627
01:31:20,960 --> 01:31:25,639
Speaker 2: bought a house and a car, and he bought a house,

1628
01:31:28,160 --> 01:31:30,680
Speaker 2: and that was kind of the first, you know, but

1629
01:31:30,800 --> 01:31:33,160
Speaker 2: it was while I was on tour, you know what

1630
01:31:33,200 --> 01:31:35,240
Speaker 2: I mean, because still at that time, I was flying

1631
01:31:35,240 --> 01:31:37,479
Speaker 2: home and staying with my parents because I never really

1632
01:31:37,520 --> 01:31:40,320
Speaker 2: moved out because I made the records when I was

1633
01:31:40,360 --> 01:31:43,320
Speaker 2: so young and then been left, you know what I mean.

1634
01:31:43,439 --> 01:31:46,680
Speaker 2: So getting my own house was a big deal. You know.

1635
01:31:47,360 --> 01:31:50,559
Speaker 1: Well, you make four records with Rick P. D Angelis,

1636
01:31:50,680 --> 01:31:54,519
Speaker 1: we negotiated the contract with Brinka. Do you ever get

1637
01:31:54,560 --> 01:31:56,120
Speaker 1: paid record royalties from Rick?

1638
01:31:56,960 --> 01:32:00,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, we did after that, especially retroactively, because once we

1639
01:32:00,280 --> 01:32:04,280
Speaker 2: renegotiated and everything kind of came back, money started coming

1640
01:32:04,320 --> 01:32:06,160
Speaker 2: in that was O.

1641
01:32:06,160 --> 01:32:10,560
Speaker 1: Okay. In terms of the royalties, In terms of the publishing,

1642
01:32:11,439 --> 01:32:12,439
Speaker 1: do you still own that?

1643
01:32:16,320 --> 01:32:19,720
Speaker 2: Well, we get yeah, we get royalties from everything.

1644
01:32:20,200 --> 01:32:22,360
Speaker 1: Well, I guess that you were in an era the

1645
01:32:22,439 --> 01:32:26,360
Speaker 1: last five seven years where people are selling their catalogs,

1646
01:32:26,479 --> 01:32:30,760
Speaker 1: they're selling their publishing, they're selling their royalties. Is that

1647
01:32:30,880 --> 01:32:32,800
Speaker 1: something you've ever done?

1648
01:32:33,080 --> 01:32:36,280
Speaker 2: No, I mean, I mean no one's talked to I mean,

1649
01:32:36,280 --> 01:32:38,880
Speaker 2: we haven't really talked about it right now about that

1650
01:32:38,960 --> 01:32:42,320
Speaker 2: because a lot of people are selling their stuff, but

1651
01:32:42,439 --> 01:32:46,400
Speaker 2: you have not. No, we haven't sold it. Now.

1652
01:32:46,920 --> 01:32:50,040
Speaker 1: Okay, if you never worked again, do you get enough

1653
01:32:50,080 --> 01:32:52,120
Speaker 1: money coming in from all this that you don't have

1654
01:32:52,200 --> 01:32:52,559
Speaker 1: to work?

1655
01:32:53,600 --> 01:32:56,160
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, we would have to make adjustments, but yeah,

1656
01:32:56,200 --> 01:32:58,480
Speaker 2: we do. Well.

1657
01:32:58,720 --> 01:33:02,000
Speaker 1: Okay, So now let's go back. When do you start

1658
01:33:02,080 --> 01:33:07,680
Speaker 1: thinking about and writing and recording the second album?

1659
01:33:08,600 --> 01:33:15,200
Speaker 2: Chris and I were writing songs. I mean, we wrote

1660
01:33:15,280 --> 01:33:18,200
Speaker 2: maybe two or three albums worth the material during the

1661
01:33:18,240 --> 01:33:28,759
Speaker 2: Shaker Moneymaker tour, and so you know, we're constantly writing,

1662
01:33:28,800 --> 01:33:33,080
Speaker 2: and so there were two or three songs that we

1663
01:33:33,240 --> 01:33:37,720
Speaker 2: had that wound up being on Southern Harmony. One was

1664
01:33:37,720 --> 01:33:41,479
Speaker 2: my Morning Song. I remember writing that in Houston while

1665
01:33:41,479 --> 01:33:44,240
Speaker 2: we were on tour with Jellyfish, and then I wrote

1666
01:33:44,280 --> 01:33:47,439
Speaker 2: Thrown to My Pride. I remember playing Thorn in My

1667
01:33:47,560 --> 01:33:49,439
Speaker 2: Pride in.

1668
01:33:50,880 --> 01:33:53,080
Speaker 1: Which is my favorite Black Rose song. I'll just leave

1669
01:33:53,120 --> 01:33:53,360
Speaker 1: it at that.

1670
01:33:53,800 --> 01:33:58,599
Speaker 2: Oh well, thank you. I remember playing that in Dublin

1671
01:33:59,439 --> 01:34:03,880
Speaker 2: one of the last shows. And then I wrote black

1672
01:34:03,920 --> 01:34:09,120
Speaker 2: Moon Creeping at the sound check in at the County

1673
01:34:09,160 --> 01:34:14,759
Speaker 2: Bowl in San Barbara. So we had those three songs,

1674
01:34:15,560 --> 01:34:18,439
Speaker 2: and then but when we got to when it was

1675
01:34:18,439 --> 01:34:21,360
Speaker 2: time to make that record, because we got home like

1676
01:34:21,600 --> 01:34:25,120
Speaker 2: right around Halloween, like it was fat, I mean, you know,

1677
01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:27,280
Speaker 2: like we finished. I think it was like a week

1678
01:34:27,320 --> 01:34:30,240
Speaker 2: before Halloween, and George came out because we were going

1679
01:34:30,320 --> 01:34:32,479
Speaker 2: to start writing the next record. We wanted to go

1680
01:34:32,560 --> 01:34:35,440
Speaker 2: right in. We felt like we had all this newfound

1681
01:34:35,680 --> 01:34:37,760
Speaker 2: power as a band, you know what I mean, like

1682
01:34:37,800 --> 01:34:40,879
Speaker 2: playing three hundred and fifty shows straight, We're like firing

1683
01:34:40,920 --> 01:34:45,080
Speaker 2: on all cylinders. We want to use that. So Chris

1684
01:34:45,160 --> 01:34:48,120
Speaker 2: had bought his house. I had my house, so we

1685
01:34:49,720 --> 01:34:52,640
Speaker 2: you know, Chris had a setup in his base in

1686
01:34:52,640 --> 01:34:55,040
Speaker 2: his garage and it was just me and him and

1687
01:34:55,080 --> 01:34:57,760
Speaker 2: I went over there. We wrote the rest of the

1688
01:34:57,800 --> 01:35:00,000
Speaker 2: record in about three in about two to three days,

1689
01:35:00,120 --> 01:35:03,000
Speaker 2: it was over the weekend. You know, George was there

1690
01:35:03,040 --> 01:35:04,920
Speaker 2: and he was on the phone a lot, and so

1691
01:35:05,680 --> 01:35:08,519
Speaker 2: I remember he was upstairs and Chris and I would

1692
01:35:08,560 --> 01:35:10,519
Speaker 2: just be writing, like George's on the phone, you know,

1693
01:35:10,600 --> 01:35:12,920
Speaker 2: so let's just write. And then at the end of

1694
01:35:12,960 --> 01:35:15,160
Speaker 2: the weekend, George like, all right, let's get started, and

1695
01:35:15,240 --> 01:35:18,800
Speaker 2: Chris and I were like, we're done. Like, you know,

1696
01:35:18,880 --> 01:35:25,400
Speaker 2: we weren't going to let We weren't going to let pressure.

1697
01:35:26,400 --> 01:35:28,799
Speaker 2: We weren't going to allow pressure to have any effect

1698
01:35:28,840 --> 01:35:33,040
Speaker 2: on how we wrote that record. We were excited to

1699
01:35:33,120 --> 01:35:36,000
Speaker 2: write it, we wanted and the songs were rocking and

1700
01:35:36,520 --> 01:35:38,920
Speaker 2: it was we were really happy with what was coming out.

1701
01:35:39,240 --> 01:35:41,479
Speaker 2: But we weren't going to be too precious about it.

1702
01:35:41,640 --> 01:35:44,360
Speaker 2: We weren't going to like sit and try to, oh, well,

1703
01:35:44,439 --> 01:35:46,320
Speaker 2: you know, we sold all these records, we need to

1704
01:35:46,360 --> 01:35:48,760
Speaker 2: try to do that again. And where's this where's the

1705
01:35:48,800 --> 01:35:50,839
Speaker 2: hard to handle, And where's this she talks to angels

1706
01:35:50,920 --> 01:35:52,800
Speaker 2: or whatever. We were just like, man, fuck it, this

1707
01:35:52,840 --> 01:35:55,200
Speaker 2: is a record we're going in. We're gonna make it,

1708
01:35:55,479 --> 01:35:57,760
Speaker 2: and we made it in eight days. It took us

1709
01:35:57,760 --> 01:36:00,960
Speaker 2: eight days to make that record, and most of the

1710
01:36:01,040 --> 01:36:04,800
Speaker 2: takes were single takes. The first time we played it

1711
01:36:04,920 --> 01:36:07,120
Speaker 2: to tape is when is the one that was in

1712
01:36:07,240 --> 01:36:09,640
Speaker 2: and then the rest of them were second tape. There

1713
01:36:09,640 --> 01:36:13,439
Speaker 2: were no you know, songs that took ten takes or

1714
01:36:13,600 --> 01:36:15,240
Speaker 2: you know, we had to keep coming back to. It

1715
01:36:15,280 --> 01:36:18,320
Speaker 2: was just we were in. We were firing on all cylinders.

1716
01:36:18,360 --> 01:36:21,040
Speaker 2: It was it was done, and we were thrilled with

1717
01:36:21,080 --> 01:36:21,680
Speaker 2: what it was.

1718
01:36:21,840 --> 01:36:28,040
Speaker 1: You know, Okay, that album goes double platinum, then the

1719
01:36:28,080 --> 01:36:31,719
Speaker 1: sales start to decrease. To what degree does that bother

1720
01:36:31,800 --> 01:36:34,040
Speaker 1: you it?

1721
01:36:34,680 --> 01:36:41,360
Speaker 2: You know, it debuted at one and it was poised

1722
01:36:41,400 --> 01:36:46,680
Speaker 2: to but you know it was poised to go, you know,

1723
01:36:47,680 --> 01:36:51,840
Speaker 2: but also at the time, at the end of Shaking

1724
01:36:51,880 --> 01:36:55,519
Speaker 2: money Makers, when grunge came out, right, like Nirvana's first

1725
01:36:55,560 --> 01:36:58,120
Speaker 2: record came out at the end of that record, So

1726
01:36:58,280 --> 01:37:00,840
Speaker 2: there was hair metal, then there was and then for

1727
01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:03,920
Speaker 2: a short year and then it was like Nirvana and

1728
01:37:03,960 --> 01:37:07,479
Speaker 2: grunge came and so you know, we had about an

1729
01:37:07,479 --> 01:37:11,639
Speaker 2: eighteen month period where you know, we kind of pushed

1730
01:37:11,720 --> 01:37:15,960
Speaker 2: hair metal out of the way for something different, and

1731
01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:21,880
Speaker 2: then this other thing came and so we were you know,

1732
01:37:21,920 --> 01:37:25,679
Speaker 2: we were playing roots rock music, roots rock and roll music,

1733
01:37:26,360 --> 01:37:28,760
Speaker 2: and also we chose our own path. Like again, we've

1734
01:37:28,760 --> 01:37:34,600
Speaker 2: always been on our own path. When Some Harmony was

1735
01:37:34,600 --> 01:37:39,080
Speaker 2: finished before it came out, Lars called me from Metallica

1736
01:37:39,240 --> 01:37:41,000
Speaker 2: and was like they were getting you know, They're like,

1737
01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:43,840
Speaker 2: we're doing the Stadium tour with Guns and Roses and

1738
01:37:43,880 --> 01:37:46,280
Speaker 2: we want you to be on the tour with us,

1739
01:37:46,439 --> 01:37:49,519
Speaker 2: and you know, and I was like, oh, wow, you

1740
01:37:49,560 --> 01:37:52,639
Speaker 2: know that would be cool. But I said, I think

1741
01:37:52,640 --> 01:37:55,080
Speaker 2: we're going to do our own thing, you know, we

1742
01:37:55,120 --> 01:37:58,800
Speaker 2: want to do our own tour. And Lars was like, man,

1743
01:37:58,840 --> 01:38:00,800
Speaker 2: you're making a mistake. You know. He was really cool,

1744
01:38:00,840 --> 01:38:02,360
Speaker 2: he was always great, but he was like, I think

1745
01:38:02,360 --> 01:38:04,040
Speaker 2: it would be really good for your career, you know,

1746
01:38:04,160 --> 01:38:06,960
Speaker 2: to play in front of all these people. And but

1747
01:38:07,200 --> 01:38:09,160
Speaker 2: you know, we were really dead set on doing our

1748
01:38:09,200 --> 01:38:11,599
Speaker 2: own thing. And what we chose to do was three

1749
01:38:11,720 --> 01:38:15,000
Speaker 2: or five nights at theaters. You know, we wanted to

1750
01:38:15,040 --> 01:38:18,439
Speaker 2: go in. We opened three nights at this theater and

1751
01:38:20,120 --> 01:38:23,960
Speaker 2: you know, in Minneapolis, and then played you know, five

1752
01:38:24,040 --> 01:38:26,519
Speaker 2: nights at the Fox and five nights at the Beacon

1753
01:38:26,920 --> 01:38:29,400
Speaker 2: in New York. And we we kind of took a

1754
01:38:29,439 --> 01:38:33,920
Speaker 2: different approach and a different route, you know, And so

1755
01:38:35,560 --> 01:38:39,280
Speaker 2: I don't know, chicken or egg what came before then.

1756
01:38:40,000 --> 01:38:43,080
Speaker 2: But as we're going off on our own and doing

1757
01:38:43,080 --> 01:38:47,280
Speaker 2: our thing, and as the music industry is changing, we

1758
01:38:47,320 --> 01:38:50,639
Speaker 2: make a Moorica, which is not a commercial record by

1759
01:38:50,680 --> 01:38:53,719
Speaker 2: any means, you know, like and we weren't really trying

1760
01:38:53,760 --> 01:38:56,200
Speaker 2: to make a commercial record again, like we were just

1761
01:38:56,680 --> 01:39:00,479
Speaker 2: you know, we're always trying to push ourselves to write

1762
01:39:00,520 --> 01:39:02,719
Speaker 2: better songs, Chris and I are always trying to push

1763
01:39:02,720 --> 01:39:08,080
Speaker 2: ourselves to write better songs. And you know, another fifteen

1764
01:39:08,160 --> 01:39:11,200
Speaker 2: or eighteen month tour for Southern Harmony and I pick

1765
01:39:11,280 --> 01:39:14,160
Speaker 2: up a lot more tools than my tool belt, er

1766
01:39:14,320 --> 01:39:19,200
Speaker 2: language that I can use in my writing. Chris is

1767
01:39:19,720 --> 01:39:22,400
Speaker 2: you know, we're all pulling more life experience for us

1768
01:39:22,400 --> 01:39:27,320
Speaker 2: to add to what we're writing about. But we wanted

1769
01:39:27,360 --> 01:39:29,760
Speaker 2: to make like a we wanted to make a very

1770
01:39:29,920 --> 01:39:34,439
Speaker 2: specific record, and we weren't. You know, it was a

1771
01:39:34,520 --> 01:39:40,800
Speaker 2: much more like our songwriting became more sophisticated, came more emotional,

1772
01:39:41,160 --> 01:39:44,840
Speaker 2: like deeper emotionally a heavier record, and Amorica is a

1773
01:39:44,840 --> 01:39:48,800
Speaker 2: heavy record, and there's not a lot of room for

1774
01:39:50,960 --> 01:39:55,720
Speaker 2: you know, there wasn't there wasn't much thought given to

1775
01:39:55,760 --> 01:39:58,280
Speaker 2: the choruses or these types of things. We were just

1776
01:39:58,320 --> 01:40:00,439
Speaker 2: making our record. We put our head down, just went

1777
01:40:00,479 --> 01:40:01,559
Speaker 2: through and made this album.

1778
01:40:02,200 --> 01:40:02,360
Speaker 1: You know.

1779
01:40:03,280 --> 01:40:09,479
Speaker 2: Oddly enough, Rick on that record took an interest, which

1780
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:11,920
Speaker 2: was really the first time he took an interest, and

1781
01:40:12,160 --> 01:40:14,840
Speaker 2: was like, he came to us and said, Chris and Rich,

1782
01:40:14,920 --> 01:40:18,360
Speaker 2: I think Descending is could be the best song you

1783
01:40:18,400 --> 01:40:22,600
Speaker 2: guys have ever written. He said, the verse is absolutely gorgeous.

1784
01:40:22,680 --> 01:40:26,839
Speaker 2: The musical piece is gorgeous. It just it needs a chorus.

1785
01:40:27,080 --> 01:40:29,840
Speaker 2: And you know, he was like, I want to bring

1786
01:40:29,920 --> 01:40:33,120
Speaker 2: someone in. I want someone to you know, what tools

1787
01:40:33,120 --> 01:40:35,040
Speaker 2: can we give you to help you rewrite the chorus?

1788
01:40:35,160 --> 01:40:38,840
Speaker 2: And we were punk rock back then. We were like,

1789
01:40:39,400 --> 01:40:42,960
Speaker 2: you know, you know, this doesn't need a new chorus.

1790
01:40:43,000 --> 01:40:44,800
Speaker 2: This is how we wrote it. This is what it is.

1791
01:40:44,840 --> 01:40:46,800
Speaker 2: And he felt the same way about gone to the

1792
01:40:46,840 --> 01:40:50,519
Speaker 2: first song on the record and he was like, that

1793
01:40:50,600 --> 01:40:52,519
Speaker 2: just needs a chorus. It doesn't have one, you know,

1794
01:40:52,920 --> 01:40:56,160
Speaker 2: And in that sense he was correct, you know, I mean,

1795
01:40:56,200 --> 01:40:59,280
Speaker 2: from a commercial standpoint, he was correct. Those two songs

1796
01:40:59,320 --> 01:41:03,599
Speaker 2: could have benefited from big choruses. And in my opinion,

1797
01:41:04,280 --> 01:41:09,400
Speaker 2: Chris's verse, what he sings on the verse and Descending

1798
01:41:09,880 --> 01:41:12,600
Speaker 2: is one of the lyrically and melodically is one of

1799
01:41:12,640 --> 01:41:14,639
Speaker 2: the most beautiful things he's ever sung.

1800
01:41:15,640 --> 01:41:18,080
Speaker 1: How do you end up working with Wig and what's

1801
01:41:18,120 --> 01:41:22,240
Speaker 1: the difference between working with him and George?

1802
01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:26,200
Speaker 2: Well, Jack, you know. So we made one record one

1803
01:41:26,280 --> 01:41:31,040
Speaker 2: America and it was called Tall. And that's when this

1804
01:41:31,080 --> 01:41:33,479
Speaker 2: is when Chris and I were really at odds and

1805
01:41:33,560 --> 01:41:38,599
Speaker 2: there was a lot of you know, substances going around

1806
01:41:38,640 --> 01:41:41,840
Speaker 2: with Chris and not with me, but with Chris, and

1807
01:41:41,920 --> 01:41:44,040
Speaker 2: so there was then there was more ego, and there

1808
01:41:44,120 --> 01:41:48,559
Speaker 2: was more weird stuff happening, and so he decided he

1809
01:41:48,600 --> 01:41:52,880
Speaker 2: wanted to produce the record. I'm like, you're not producing me, Like,

1810
01:41:53,000 --> 01:41:54,760
Speaker 2: I know what the fuck I'm doing. I don't need

1811
01:41:54,800 --> 01:41:59,719
Speaker 2: you to produce me. And so we wound up making

1812
01:41:59,840 --> 01:42:04,680
Speaker 2: the first record. Chris met this guy who was an engineer,

1813
01:42:07,160 --> 01:42:11,280
Speaker 2: but I didn't, you know, And Chris conveyed everything he

1814
01:42:11,400 --> 01:42:14,479
Speaker 2: wanted from a record to this guy without asking what

1815
01:42:14,560 --> 01:42:17,360
Speaker 2: I wanted from the record, and I'm like, well, that's

1816
01:42:17,439 --> 01:42:21,040
Speaker 2: not what I want, you know what I mean? And

1817
01:42:21,120 --> 01:42:23,680
Speaker 2: so it was just a dirge. It was like a

1818
01:42:23,720 --> 01:42:26,519
Speaker 2: fucking six or sex. It took seven months maybe in

1819
01:42:26,600 --> 01:42:30,759
Speaker 2: the studio, and it was and so we made this record,

1820
01:42:30,840 --> 01:42:32,320
Speaker 2: and at the end of it, we were just like,

1821
01:42:32,360 --> 01:42:34,720
Speaker 2: it's not very good. It's just not good. We don't

1822
01:42:34,720 --> 01:42:37,719
Speaker 2: I don't like it, you know. Even the other guys

1823
01:42:37,760 --> 01:42:39,439
Speaker 2: in the band were like, yeah, you know, I think

1824
01:42:39,479 --> 01:42:42,280
Speaker 2: it could have been better. Our manager was, you know,

1825
01:42:42,520 --> 01:42:47,479
Speaker 2: like yeah, I don't think this is it. And after that,

1826
01:42:48,960 --> 01:42:51,719
Speaker 2: Chris and I took some time. We got back together

1827
01:42:51,760 --> 01:42:54,320
Speaker 2: and we were like, well, let's make a studio album.

1828
01:42:54,960 --> 01:43:00,000
Speaker 2: I want something that sounds amazing in this in the sense,

1829
01:43:00,320 --> 01:43:03,719
Speaker 2: you know, something that is like that audio files would

1830
01:43:03,720 --> 01:43:06,439
Speaker 2: put on and listen and be like, man, this sounds

1831
01:43:06,439 --> 01:43:09,679
Speaker 2: fucking you know. The sounds can be their own sort

1832
01:43:09,680 --> 01:43:14,040
Speaker 2: of tapestry. And we felt really strongly about those two

1833
01:43:14,120 --> 01:43:19,720
Speaker 2: Jellyfish records, especially Spilt Milk the second one, because we

1834
01:43:19,800 --> 01:43:22,200
Speaker 2: love those guys they were our friends. But also those

1835
01:43:22,200 --> 01:43:26,000
Speaker 2: records sounded unbelievable. And it was Jack Quig who did

1836
01:43:26,000 --> 01:43:29,120
Speaker 2: that record, and so we reached out to him and

1837
01:43:29,280 --> 01:43:31,280
Speaker 2: he came in and we made we kind of went

1838
01:43:31,360 --> 01:43:35,960
Speaker 2: back in half or maybe seven out of however many

1839
01:43:36,000 --> 01:43:41,160
Speaker 2: songs is on America and I wrote some more songs

1840
01:43:41,240 --> 01:43:45,160
Speaker 2: and and then yeah, we went in and made a

1841
01:43:45,160 --> 01:43:47,200
Speaker 2: Moorica and it did. It was one of those things

1842
01:43:47,240 --> 01:43:52,240
Speaker 2: that sounds fucking stellar. It's an amazing sounding record. But again,

1843
01:43:52,560 --> 01:43:57,280
Speaker 2: you know, Descending Gone could have been something else if

1844
01:43:57,280 --> 01:43:59,280
Speaker 2: we had written, if we had focused on that, but

1845
01:43:59,439 --> 01:44:01,160
Speaker 2: we weren't the right place to do that.

1846
01:44:02,160 --> 01:44:05,040
Speaker 1: How do you end up working with Jimmy Page.

1847
01:44:07,280 --> 01:44:10,200
Speaker 2: So America comes out, We do that, then we make

1848
01:44:10,240 --> 01:44:14,960
Speaker 2: Three Snakes, and Three Snakes is kind of more of

1849
01:44:15,000 --> 01:44:18,400
Speaker 2: a of a pathway into We wanted to make like

1850
01:44:18,600 --> 01:44:22,680
Speaker 2: led Zeppelin three. The juxtaposition between like big drums and

1851
01:44:22,720 --> 01:44:26,400
Speaker 2: acoustic guitars, like the sound and the presentation of led

1852
01:44:26,439 --> 01:44:29,679
Speaker 2: Zeppelin three we loved. We're like, man, this is fucking great.

1853
01:44:29,680 --> 01:44:30,400
Speaker 2: What if we do this?

1854
01:44:30,479 --> 01:44:30,800
Speaker 1: Do this?

1855
01:44:31,120 --> 01:44:34,120
Speaker 2: We made this record, but again, tickets, I mean, the

1856
01:44:34,280 --> 01:44:41,280
Speaker 2: album sales continued to kind of plateau, and you know,

1857
01:44:41,920 --> 01:44:44,559
Speaker 2: people at the label were getting up tight. Our manager

1858
01:44:44,600 --> 01:44:47,360
Speaker 2: was kind of getting up tight. So we're like, we

1859
01:44:47,439 --> 01:44:50,760
Speaker 2: need to make a rock and roll record and kind

1860
01:44:50,760 --> 01:44:53,479
Speaker 2: of get back to our roots and see how this works.

1861
01:44:54,200 --> 01:44:58,640
Speaker 2: So we hired Kevin Shirley, who had been working with Aerosmith.

1862
01:44:59,360 --> 01:45:03,280
Speaker 2: We sign our manager was able to pull us away

1863
01:45:03,280 --> 01:45:07,040
Speaker 2: from Rick and get us directly onto Columbia, and so

1864
01:45:07,240 --> 01:45:09,439
Speaker 2: Rick wouldn't really we wouldn't. We didn't like Rick, and

1865
01:45:09,479 --> 01:45:11,920
Speaker 2: we didn't We couldn't, you know, we wouldn't have to

1866
01:45:11,960 --> 01:45:16,400
Speaker 2: deal with Rick anymore. So we signed with Columbia, do

1867
01:45:16,520 --> 01:45:20,960
Speaker 2: this big thing, have a comeback and made this rock

1868
01:45:21,000 --> 01:45:22,880
Speaker 2: and roll record, which is a great It is a

1869
01:45:22,920 --> 01:45:25,960
Speaker 2: really good rock and roll record. There's choruses, it's exciting,

1870
01:45:26,520 --> 01:45:29,800
Speaker 2: sounds good. We do a bunch of shows, do a

1871
01:45:29,800 --> 01:45:32,200
Speaker 2: bunch of headline shows, and then we got a bunch

1872
01:45:32,240 --> 01:45:34,880
Speaker 2: of Aerosmith stadium shows in Europe because they would do

1873
01:45:34,920 --> 01:45:41,519
Speaker 2: stadiums in Europe. And in nineteen ninety we toured with

1874
01:45:41,720 --> 01:45:44,400
Speaker 2: Robert Plant. He was one of one of the bands

1875
01:45:44,439 --> 01:45:48,439
Speaker 2: we toured with in arenas and we loved Robert. Robert

1876
01:45:48,560 --> 01:45:51,120
Speaker 2: was always so cool to us. Couldn't have been cooler person.

1877
01:45:52,439 --> 01:45:55,920
Speaker 2: The next year on Southern Harmony, Robert was doing. We

1878
01:45:55,920 --> 01:45:59,000
Speaker 2: were doing festivals and Robert was opening for us, which

1879
01:45:59,040 --> 01:46:00,800
Speaker 2: was a little weird for us. I was like, wow,

1880
01:46:00,880 --> 01:46:05,960
Speaker 2: this is and I remember we were playing three nights

1881
01:46:05,960 --> 01:46:09,479
Speaker 2: at the Royal Albert Hall in London and Robert was like,

1882
01:46:09,520 --> 01:46:12,000
Speaker 2: can I bring Jimmy down? We're like, fuck yeah. Of course,

1883
01:46:12,080 --> 01:46:15,240
Speaker 2: you know, they were putting together Page Plant, and Robert

1884
01:46:15,280 --> 01:46:17,760
Speaker 2: wanted Jimmy to come, and we were excited to have

1885
01:46:17,840 --> 01:46:19,800
Speaker 2: him come. And it was Robert and Jimmy, Jimmy and

1886
01:46:19,880 --> 01:46:23,599
Speaker 2: Ron Wood was there too, and we met Jimmy and

1887
01:46:23,680 --> 01:46:26,679
Speaker 2: he couldn't have been cooler, and he loved the band

1888
01:46:26,920 --> 01:46:28,719
Speaker 2: like that. I think that was the first time he'd

1889
01:46:28,760 --> 01:46:31,040
Speaker 2: seen us, so he really loved the band. It was like, man,

1890
01:46:31,040 --> 01:46:33,519
Speaker 2: you guys are great. We hung out with him and

1891
01:46:33,560 --> 01:46:36,120
Speaker 2: he liked it so much and he was good. And

1892
01:46:36,200 --> 01:46:39,840
Speaker 2: Jimmy was close with our friend Ross Halfin, who's a photographer,

1893
01:46:40,360 --> 01:46:42,679
Speaker 2: and so we're like, well, Jimmy, were playing in Paris

1894
01:46:42,720 --> 01:46:44,360
Speaker 2: in two days, if you want to come, And so

1895
01:46:44,479 --> 01:46:48,280
Speaker 2: Jimmy came and him and Ross flew to Paris and

1896
01:46:48,320 --> 01:46:51,479
Speaker 2: we were up there and you know, Chris had a

1897
01:46:51,479 --> 01:46:54,400
Speaker 2: bunch of vinyl on the floor because we traveled with

1898
01:46:54,479 --> 01:47:00,640
Speaker 2: this massive stereo in our in our dressing room, and

1899
01:47:01,240 --> 01:47:03,519
Speaker 2: Chris went and bought a bunch of vinyl and they

1900
01:47:03,520 --> 01:47:06,200
Speaker 2: would fly home with the stereo. And so Jimmy was

1901
01:47:06,240 --> 01:47:08,160
Speaker 2: there looking through the virus like oh yeah, I love

1902
01:47:08,200 --> 01:47:11,200
Speaker 2: this and this, and we really hit it off, and

1903
01:47:11,280 --> 01:47:13,600
Speaker 2: so you know, we always kept in touch. And then

1904
01:47:13,680 --> 01:47:16,320
Speaker 2: the next year the next record we played, you know,

1905
01:47:16,360 --> 01:47:18,280
Speaker 2: the Albert Hall, and Jimmy came down again and we

1906
01:47:18,360 --> 01:47:22,240
Speaker 2: just really hit it off in that way, and we

1907
01:47:22,280 --> 01:47:25,759
Speaker 2: had done some shows with Page Plant, so we did

1908
01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:30,240
Speaker 2: so the Amorica tour in the summer, we toured with

1909
01:47:30,280 --> 01:47:33,640
Speaker 2: the Stones and Page Plant at the same time. So

1910
01:47:33,840 --> 01:47:37,880
Speaker 2: in between playing with the Stones at we did three

1911
01:47:37,960 --> 01:47:41,240
Speaker 2: nights at Wembley Stadium. We broke off and would go

1912
01:47:41,320 --> 01:47:43,559
Speaker 2: do shows with the Page Plant in the UK and

1913
01:47:43,600 --> 01:47:47,120
Speaker 2: then come back the next night play with with the Stones.

1914
01:47:47,120 --> 01:47:50,800
Speaker 2: And it was like a magical, unbelievable summer of that.

1915
01:47:52,439 --> 01:47:54,240
Speaker 2: And so we just really headed off and it was

1916
01:47:54,240 --> 01:47:57,519
Speaker 2: always cool cut to by your side, by your side

1917
01:47:57,520 --> 01:48:01,519
Speaker 2: comes out we're doing these shows with Aerosmith. Jimmy was

1918
01:48:01,680 --> 01:48:05,519
Speaker 2: part of a he was part of a charity event

1919
01:48:05,720 --> 01:48:09,280
Speaker 2: that he I guess set up with his wife at

1920
01:48:09,280 --> 01:48:14,040
Speaker 2: the time, Hermione, who she was from Brazil and I

1921
01:48:14,040 --> 01:48:17,320
Speaker 2: think it was called the Brazilian Children's Fund and he

1922
01:48:17,680 --> 01:48:20,639
Speaker 2: did this thing every year at the Cafe de Perry

1923
01:48:20,680 --> 01:48:24,639
Speaker 2: in London, and so he wanted us to be his band.

1924
01:48:25,560 --> 01:48:27,400
Speaker 2: He's like, I want you guys, he goes, I've already

1925
01:48:27,400 --> 01:48:29,200
Speaker 2: done it with Robert and I've done it with these people,

1926
01:48:29,240 --> 01:48:31,160
Speaker 2: but I really want you to be my band. And

1927
01:48:31,200 --> 01:48:33,840
Speaker 2: so we were so flattered and like, man, we would

1928
01:48:33,880 --> 01:48:36,640
Speaker 2: love to first song we learned was like in My

1929
01:48:36,720 --> 01:48:39,679
Speaker 2: Time of Dying, which was amazing, and you know, Jimmy

1930
01:48:39,760 --> 01:48:41,640
Speaker 2: was like, what would you guys like to do? And

1931
01:48:41,680 --> 01:48:44,280
Speaker 2: we chose to do like ten Years Gone and you know, yeah,

1932
01:48:44,360 --> 01:48:48,439
Speaker 2: cool stuff, and so we were so excited and then

1933
01:48:48,479 --> 01:48:50,880
Speaker 2: we got we learned our parts in New York and

1934
01:48:51,360 --> 01:48:54,519
Speaker 2: got everything together and then we got together with him

1935
01:48:54,560 --> 01:48:56,840
Speaker 2: before the event at this place called No Me's and

1936
01:48:56,880 --> 01:49:00,599
Speaker 2: it was just something that was so it just felt right.

1937
01:49:00,920 --> 01:49:02,800
Speaker 2: You know. It's like when you play with someone that

1938
01:49:02,960 --> 01:49:08,320
Speaker 2: sound that is like, oh shit, you know, that just

1939
01:49:08,400 --> 01:49:10,840
Speaker 2: sounds like they've been in your band forever or you've

1940
01:49:10,840 --> 01:49:13,240
Speaker 2: been in their band forever, whatever it is. And it

1941
01:49:13,360 --> 01:49:16,559
Speaker 2: was so natural and so cool. And while we were

1942
01:49:16,600 --> 01:49:20,880
Speaker 2: doing it, our manager, actually Pete at the time, said

1943
01:49:21,120 --> 01:49:24,200
Speaker 2: we should do this, like let's you know, this would

1944
01:49:24,240 --> 01:49:26,080
Speaker 2: be cool to do. Let's do a couple of shows,

1945
01:49:26,080 --> 01:49:28,000
Speaker 2: and he approached Jimmy and Jimmy was like, man, I

1946
01:49:28,040 --> 01:49:31,320
Speaker 2: would love to do that, that's great, So he put

1947
01:49:31,560 --> 01:49:34,240
Speaker 2: you know, I think it was like three shows in

1948
01:49:34,280 --> 01:49:37,519
Speaker 2: New York, one show in Boston, wanted Detroit, and in

1949
01:49:39,360 --> 01:49:41,720
Speaker 2: to in La at the Greek, and so we just

1950
01:49:41,800 --> 01:49:43,920
Speaker 2: kind of booked these shows and said, let's see how

1951
01:49:43,920 --> 01:49:47,840
Speaker 2: it goes. And it was the most fun some of

1952
01:49:47,880 --> 01:49:50,880
Speaker 2: the coolest shit we've ever done, you know what I mean,

1953
01:49:52,640 --> 01:49:54,800
Speaker 2: Like all these people showed up in New York. The

1954
01:49:54,880 --> 01:49:58,559
Speaker 2: excitement was so palpable, like you could feel it in

1955
01:49:58,640 --> 01:50:02,599
Speaker 2: the dressing room. You know. We played the Roseland Ballroom

1956
01:50:02,640 --> 01:50:04,720
Speaker 2: three nights and it was like a small place. It's

1957
01:50:04,760 --> 01:50:08,320
Speaker 2: like four thousand seats and you think about those people

1958
01:50:08,360 --> 01:50:10,360
Speaker 2: getting in to see that thing, and what's it going

1959
01:50:10,400 --> 01:50:13,080
Speaker 2: to be like you just felt it. And Amed Urnaguet

1960
01:50:13,200 --> 01:50:16,080
Speaker 2: was there and all these people came out of the

1961
01:50:17,160 --> 01:50:20,320
Speaker 2: out of the you know, the woodwork to see it.

1962
01:50:20,320 --> 01:50:22,920
Speaker 2: It was something that was amazing. Joe Perry jam with

1963
01:50:23,000 --> 01:50:26,559
Speaker 2: us in Boston, you know, just such a fucking cool

1964
01:50:26,640 --> 01:50:27,280
Speaker 2: thing to do.

1965
01:50:29,520 --> 01:50:34,599
Speaker 1: Okay, in two thousand and one, you do the Brotherly

1966
01:50:34,680 --> 01:50:39,280
Speaker 1: Love Tour with Oasis and Black Crows. I saw it

1967
01:50:39,280 --> 01:50:42,880
Speaker 1: at the Greek. I think you guys closed I had

1968
01:50:42,960 --> 01:50:47,439
Speaker 1: seen Oasis at the Whiskey. Oasis were long in the

1969
01:50:47,479 --> 01:50:51,200
Speaker 1: tooth at that point in time. What did you think

1970
01:50:51,280 --> 01:50:54,760
Speaker 1: when Oasis came back last year and sold stadiums in

1971
01:50:54,840 --> 01:50:56,400
Speaker 1: America forgetting?

1972
01:50:57,920 --> 01:51:02,559
Speaker 2: I was shocked, Like, are you fucking kidding me? I mean,

1973
01:51:02,600 --> 01:51:04,960
Speaker 2: I was happy for them. I love those guys, you know,

1974
01:51:06,120 --> 01:51:08,599
Speaker 2: but I was like, I mean, because the last time

1975
01:51:08,640 --> 01:51:11,559
Speaker 2: I saw them in America before they split up, they

1976
01:51:11,600 --> 01:51:15,519
Speaker 2: were doing theaters, you know, they never got to that

1977
01:51:15,640 --> 01:51:17,599
Speaker 2: level in the States, and then all of a sudden,

1978
01:51:17,600 --> 01:51:21,120
Speaker 2: they're doing fucking stadiums in LA, Chicago and New York.

1979
01:51:21,200 --> 01:51:24,559
Speaker 2: I was I was like, oh my god, this is crazy.

1980
01:51:24,680 --> 01:51:27,080
Speaker 2: Chris saw a couple of the shows. I think I

1981
01:51:27,080 --> 01:51:30,240
Speaker 2: think he saw New York and maybe La or London.

1982
01:51:30,240 --> 01:51:30,840
Speaker 2: I can't remember.

1983
01:51:39,040 --> 01:51:44,479
Speaker 1: Okay, you and your brother get back together before COVID.

1984
01:51:45,000 --> 01:51:48,320
Speaker 1: There's a lot of excitement. There's a little bit of backlash.

1985
01:51:48,320 --> 01:51:51,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask you for it. Some people say, hey,

1986
01:51:51,160 --> 01:51:53,400
Speaker 1: you did it for the money. What would you say

1987
01:51:53,400 --> 01:51:53,760
Speaker 1: to them?

1988
01:51:55,600 --> 01:52:00,200
Speaker 2: You know, I mean, everyone's gonna have their take, you

1989
01:52:00,240 --> 01:52:04,479
Speaker 2: know the fact that we didn't. You know, there's two

1990
01:52:05,680 --> 01:52:07,360
Speaker 2: a band. Being in a band is like being in

1991
01:52:07,400 --> 01:52:09,559
Speaker 2: a marriage or being in a family. There's a family

1992
01:52:09,680 --> 01:52:16,160
Speaker 2: dynamic that surrounds every band, and our family band dynamic

1993
01:52:16,320 --> 01:52:20,320
Speaker 2: was fucking toxic, and it was toxic from the moment

1994
01:52:20,400 --> 01:52:24,479
Speaker 2: we started seeing success is when infighting started happening and

1995
01:52:24,520 --> 01:52:27,519
Speaker 2: all this shit. You know, our old drummer had said

1996
01:52:27,680 --> 01:52:30,000
Speaker 2: a couple of times, like the scariest thing to all

1997
01:52:30,040 --> 01:52:31,599
Speaker 2: of us in the band is when you and Chris

1998
01:52:31,640 --> 01:52:34,200
Speaker 2: get along, because we can't, you know, because there's no

1999
01:52:34,320 --> 01:52:37,439
Speaker 2: stopping and a lot of and there was a lot

2000
01:52:37,479 --> 01:52:39,519
Speaker 2: of that attitude there, and so there was a lot

2001
01:52:39,560 --> 01:52:45,640
Speaker 2: of there's a lot of push to keep Chris and

2002
01:52:45,680 --> 01:52:49,479
Speaker 2: I separate, to divide and conquer, to to push what

2003
01:52:49,560 --> 01:52:53,680
Speaker 2: I call little pettige power agendas that people wanted to

2004
01:52:53,720 --> 01:52:56,559
Speaker 2: push instead of looking at Chris and I getting along

2005
01:52:56,640 --> 01:53:00,360
Speaker 2: as something that's a positive for everyone. And so when

2006
01:53:00,400 --> 01:53:02,680
Speaker 2: we got back together, we talked about it. I mean,

2007
01:53:02,720 --> 01:53:05,360
Speaker 2: what most people don't understand is we got offered tours

2008
01:53:05,439 --> 01:53:08,360
Speaker 2: every year that we were broken up, you know what

2009
01:53:08,439 --> 01:53:12,120
Speaker 2: I mean, like there we could have toured anytime, but

2010
01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:14,960
Speaker 2: at this time and moment, we you know, Chris and

2011
01:53:14,960 --> 01:53:17,040
Speaker 2: I had been out on our own. We think it

2012
01:53:17,080 --> 01:53:22,479
Speaker 2: was eight or nine years apart, and we you know,

2013
01:53:23,439 --> 01:53:27,680
Speaker 2: decided that it was something that was important to us

2014
01:53:27,680 --> 01:53:30,000
Speaker 2: and the way the way we did it was going

2015
01:53:30,080 --> 01:53:33,880
Speaker 2: to have to be a different way. And I'm like,

2016
01:53:34,080 --> 01:53:36,760
Speaker 2: I don't want to do this. If we're going to

2017
01:53:36,880 --> 01:53:39,599
Speaker 2: just start the same bullshit, if we're going to fight

2018
01:53:40,240 --> 01:53:41,800
Speaker 2: and it's going to be this and there's going to

2019
01:53:41,840 --> 01:53:45,599
Speaker 2: be you know, pettiness and people trying to divide us.

2020
01:53:45,640 --> 01:53:47,040
Speaker 2: I said, I'm not going to fucking do it. I

2021
01:53:47,040 --> 01:53:49,439
Speaker 2: don't want to do it. And he said the same thing,

2022
01:53:49,479 --> 01:53:52,080
Speaker 2: and I and we both agreed that like the only

2023
01:53:52,120 --> 01:53:55,080
Speaker 2: way to keep it positive is to bring in new people,

2024
01:53:56,000 --> 01:53:58,720
Speaker 2: is to bring in new band members and bring in

2025
01:53:58,760 --> 01:54:02,520
Speaker 2: new management and kindind of start over where it's established

2026
01:54:02,560 --> 01:54:05,920
Speaker 2: that we that this is where everything comes from, and

2027
01:54:05,960 --> 01:54:08,800
Speaker 2: we need to just get and for Christ andize relationship

2028
01:54:08,880 --> 01:54:10,920
Speaker 2: and for the relationship of the band and for the

2029
01:54:11,120 --> 01:54:13,360
Speaker 2: and for moving forward. This is how we need to

2030
01:54:13,400 --> 01:54:15,679
Speaker 2: do it. And so that's what we did.

2031
01:54:16,520 --> 01:54:20,200
Speaker 1: Before we get back to the Black Crows, I saw

2032
01:54:20,240 --> 01:54:24,200
Speaker 1: you as one of the guitarist with Howard Lease in

2033
01:54:24,280 --> 01:54:29,360
Speaker 1: what was called Bad Company Phenomenal Show, and you were great,

2034
01:54:29,640 --> 01:54:32,040
Speaker 1: But how do you end up playing in that situation.

2035
01:54:35,280 --> 01:54:39,560
Speaker 2: There was a couple of years ago there was a

2036
01:54:39,680 --> 01:54:48,640
Speaker 2: tribute to Jimmy Page from the Experience Hendricks Project and

2037
01:54:49,400 --> 01:54:53,400
Speaker 2: I had done. After the Crows split up, I was

2038
01:54:53,440 --> 01:54:56,120
Speaker 2: doing my solo stuff and I got asked to do

2039
01:54:56,160 --> 01:54:59,600
Speaker 2: this Jimmy Hendricks tour and it was it was something

2040
01:54:59,640 --> 01:55:02,640
Speaker 2: I'd never done. I'm like, oh, I've never done anything

2041
01:55:02,680 --> 01:55:05,040
Speaker 2: like that. I've always been in my own band. I've

2042
01:55:05,040 --> 01:55:09,080
Speaker 2: always been kind of safe and protected in my own band.

2043
01:55:09,080 --> 01:55:11,440
Speaker 2: So I was like, oh wow, trying to challenge myself.

2044
01:55:12,080 --> 01:55:14,720
Speaker 2: And so I went out and did that and everyone

2045
01:55:14,800 --> 01:55:17,200
Speaker 2: was so cool. Jamie, you couldn't have been cooler. And

2046
01:55:17,240 --> 01:55:21,919
Speaker 2: this guy, John McDermott, who runs or manages the Hendricks catalog,

2047
01:55:23,560 --> 01:55:25,280
Speaker 2: was out on that tour and he was one of

2048
01:55:25,320 --> 01:55:28,160
Speaker 2: the people that wanted me to be involved, and so

2049
01:55:28,640 --> 01:55:30,800
Speaker 2: he wound up helping me out, you know, because I

2050
01:55:31,520 --> 01:55:33,840
Speaker 2: had a manager and it wasn't panning out, and so

2051
01:55:34,920 --> 01:55:37,480
Speaker 2: I asked for his help and he was like, oh, yeah,

2052
01:55:37,480 --> 01:55:39,360
Speaker 2: I can help you out. So he helped put together

2053
01:55:39,360 --> 01:55:41,680
Speaker 2: a couple of things, and one of the things he

2054
01:55:41,720 --> 01:55:44,080
Speaker 2: put together was this tribute to Jimmy. I mean, that

2055
01:55:44,120 --> 01:55:50,920
Speaker 2: guy knows everyone, but Bad Company's manager asked him if

2056
01:55:50,920 --> 01:55:53,600
Speaker 2: I would play on a couple of things with Bad Company,

2057
01:55:54,840 --> 01:55:59,160
Speaker 2: and so I'm like four, because they were doing at

2058
01:55:59,200 --> 01:56:04,240
Speaker 2: this experience Hendrick's thing. They were doing what was the

2059
01:56:04,280 --> 01:56:06,440
Speaker 2: name of that band that he was in with Jimmy

2060
01:56:07,280 --> 01:56:15,200
Speaker 2: Radioactive and uh get Satisfaction Guaranteed the Firm.

2061
01:56:16,000 --> 01:56:17,440
Speaker 1: Those were the two best songs.

2062
01:56:18,240 --> 01:56:21,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I was like, yeah, sure, you know, I'll play.

2063
01:56:21,520 --> 01:56:24,960
Speaker 2: I don't care. That'd be cool, you know. And so

2064
01:56:27,080 --> 01:56:30,280
Speaker 2: I kind of flew there and played with them and

2065
01:56:30,320 --> 01:56:32,720
Speaker 2: it was cool, you know, and that was it. And

2066
01:56:32,760 --> 01:56:35,400
Speaker 2: then about maybe a couple of months later, they called

2067
01:56:35,440 --> 01:56:39,600
Speaker 2: me and said, Mick Rauss can't do the American leg

2068
01:56:40,760 --> 01:56:42,640
Speaker 2: and we were just they were just wondering if you'd

2069
01:56:42,680 --> 01:56:45,640
Speaker 2: be up for filling in for six weeks, and I said, yeah,

2070
01:56:45,680 --> 01:56:48,200
Speaker 2: of course, that would be amazing. I mean I love Free,

2071
01:56:48,880 --> 01:56:53,960
Speaker 2: I mean Free is an amazing band, and I love

2072
01:56:54,080 --> 01:56:58,240
Speaker 2: Simon and Andy Frasier, you know, and Paul's amazing, and

2073
01:56:58,320 --> 01:57:00,200
Speaker 2: so I was like fuck yeah, and I just I

2074
01:57:00,280 --> 01:57:03,080
Speaker 2: did it because I thought we'd play Free songs at soundcheck,

2075
01:57:04,920 --> 01:57:08,560
Speaker 2: you know. But but it was cool and I went

2076
01:57:08,680 --> 01:57:12,720
Speaker 2: and did it, and you know, Paul sounded amazing. Simon

2077
01:57:12,840 --> 01:57:15,240
Speaker 2: sounded great. It was a cool thing to do, and

2078
01:57:15,280 --> 01:57:17,160
Speaker 2: it was just six weeks and so I filled in

2079
01:57:17,240 --> 01:57:19,600
Speaker 2: for Mick and then he came back, and then I

2080
01:57:19,640 --> 01:57:22,440
Speaker 2: think is when he started having his you know, more

2081
01:57:22,520 --> 01:57:23,440
Speaker 2: medical issues.

2082
01:57:23,760 --> 01:57:26,200
Speaker 1: Did you play any free songs in soundcheck?

2083
01:57:26,800 --> 01:57:31,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, we did a little bit. You know, I think

2084
01:57:31,520 --> 01:57:35,240
Speaker 2: like Simon, because Howard was into it too. Howard love

2085
01:57:35,320 --> 01:57:38,240
Speaker 2: free and he you know, I think he played mister

2086
01:57:38,320 --> 01:57:40,960
Speaker 2: Big and you know Simon, but Paul wasn't having it.

2087
01:57:41,160 --> 01:57:42,960
Speaker 2: He's like that man never told over here. And I

2088
01:57:43,040 --> 01:57:45,680
Speaker 2: was like, all right, but I you know, I would

2089
01:57:45,720 --> 01:57:48,080
Speaker 2: have done like I'll be creeping or you know, ride

2090
01:57:48,160 --> 01:57:50,240
Speaker 2: on a pony or something. Would have been cool.

2091
01:57:50,960 --> 01:57:56,160
Speaker 1: Okay, So Black Groves gets back together, he amps up,

2092
01:57:56,240 --> 01:58:03,400
Speaker 1: COVID happens. Okay, the novelty of Black Crows being back

2093
01:58:03,480 --> 01:58:07,400
Speaker 1: together is over. It's been you know, seven years at

2094
01:58:07,400 --> 01:58:12,360
Speaker 1: this point in time. Okay, So how do you see

2095
01:58:13,120 --> 01:58:18,280
Speaker 1: Black Crows going forward in terms of, you know, what

2096
01:58:18,320 --> 01:58:20,520
Speaker 1: you want on of it? It's completely you talk about

2097
01:58:20,520 --> 01:58:23,560
Speaker 1: grunge coming in the early nineties, we're in an era

2098
01:58:24,160 --> 01:58:28,000
Speaker 1: where no one has dominance. The Rolling Stones put on

2099
01:58:28,120 --> 01:58:31,000
Speaker 1: a new album, it gets pressed very few people who

2100
01:58:31,120 --> 01:58:35,200
Speaker 1: actually listen to it. What's your vision going forward?

2101
01:58:36,680 --> 01:58:39,280
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, we love playing, we love being

2102
01:58:39,320 --> 01:58:41,200
Speaker 2: in the studio. We're going to do what we do,

2103
01:58:41,440 --> 01:58:45,440
Speaker 2: and you know, that's it's kind of what we've always done.

2104
01:58:45,480 --> 01:58:49,360
Speaker 2: We've always been We've always been outside what everyone else

2105
01:58:49,400 --> 01:58:53,000
Speaker 2: does in the industry. We've never been part of any

2106
01:58:54,680 --> 01:58:58,280
Speaker 2: any kind of movement. Like we were kind of our

2107
01:58:58,320 --> 01:59:01,440
Speaker 2: own movement for two years from ninety to ninety two,

2108
01:59:01,960 --> 01:59:06,120
Speaker 2: and then something else came, but we still existed consistently

2109
01:59:06,200 --> 01:59:10,680
Speaker 2: throughout the world unto ourselves. And so I think we're

2110
01:59:11,160 --> 01:59:13,320
Speaker 2: you know, just keep going as long as it's fun

2111
01:59:13,360 --> 01:59:15,560
Speaker 2: and as long as we feel happy about what we're doing.

2112
01:59:15,640 --> 01:59:17,720
Speaker 2: And you know, that's pretty much it.

2113
01:59:18,000 --> 01:59:22,120
Speaker 1: Do you care about the size of the audience, size

2114
01:59:22,160 --> 01:59:23,320
Speaker 1: of the buildings you play in?

2115
01:59:25,520 --> 01:59:28,000
Speaker 2: You know, we're selling more tickets still to this day

2116
01:59:28,040 --> 01:59:30,680
Speaker 2: than we ever did, you know, I mean consistently, we're

2117
01:59:30,720 --> 01:59:33,720
Speaker 2: still selling a lot of tickets. We're still selling big

2118
01:59:33,840 --> 01:59:39,680
Speaker 2: So I mean, it's it's cool. I mean, it's nice

2119
01:59:39,680 --> 01:59:42,800
Speaker 2: to have people come see you. I mean, it feels

2120
01:59:42,800 --> 01:59:44,560
Speaker 2: great when people come see you and they like what

2121
01:59:44,600 --> 01:59:45,040
Speaker 2: you're doing.

2122
01:59:47,000 --> 01:59:51,000
Speaker 1: Okay, the album comes out, it's a completely different era

2123
01:59:51,200 --> 01:59:56,920
Speaker 1: from nineteen ninety. Hey, do you care about reviews? Do

2124
01:59:57,000 --> 02:00:00,000
Speaker 1: you care about the number of streams? And how much

2125
02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:02,120
Speaker 1: what of this will people see in the new sets?

2126
02:00:06,240 --> 02:00:10,800
Speaker 2: Again, it's one of those things you make music because

2127
02:00:10,800 --> 02:00:13,080
Speaker 2: you want people to like it and you want people

2128
02:00:13,080 --> 02:00:18,520
Speaker 2: to stream it. But if they don't, then that's cool too,

2129
02:00:19,000 --> 02:00:20,760
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like it is what it is.

2130
02:00:21,000 --> 02:00:22,840
Speaker 2: At the end of the day, They're going to like

2131
02:00:22,880 --> 02:00:25,840
Speaker 2: what they like or not like what they like. As

2132
02:00:25,880 --> 02:00:29,640
Speaker 2: far as as like how many songs, we'll probably play

2133
02:00:29,640 --> 02:00:33,000
Speaker 2: two or three songs a night, new songs from this record,

2134
02:00:33,040 --> 02:00:36,120
Speaker 2: maybe a song from the last from Happiness Bastards, and

2135
02:00:36,160 --> 02:00:40,600
Speaker 2: then a bunch of stuff from our old records, stuff

2136
02:00:40,640 --> 02:00:44,600
Speaker 2: that from unreleased albums and covers and you know, so

2137
02:00:44,640 --> 02:00:47,080
Speaker 2: we still change it up a bit, and we still

2138
02:00:47,560 --> 02:00:49,560
Speaker 2: you know, change the set list every night. We still

2139
02:00:49,600 --> 02:00:52,840
Speaker 2: add new songs in and make it dynamic, and that

2140
02:00:52,960 --> 02:00:54,680
Speaker 2: makes it more interesting for us.

2141
02:00:55,160 --> 02:00:57,400
Speaker 1: Okay, there were some other things you've done that have

2142
02:00:57,520 --> 02:00:59,480
Speaker 1: not been common. You've done it. You did a tour

2143
02:00:59,520 --> 02:01:02,880
Speaker 1: that was another under play. You've also played nights where

2144
02:01:02,880 --> 02:01:07,760
Speaker 1: you've played for a long time. You know, mixing it

2145
02:01:07,840 --> 02:01:10,960
Speaker 1: up is one thing, but left to your own devices,

2146
02:01:11,680 --> 02:01:12,760
Speaker 1: how do you like to do it?

2147
02:01:19,600 --> 02:01:21,440
Speaker 2: You know, left to our own device. I don't know.

2148
02:01:21,480 --> 02:01:25,920
Speaker 2: We're always kind of on our own devices. But I think,

2149
02:01:27,880 --> 02:01:31,280
Speaker 2: you know, I like changing songs every night. I like

2150
02:01:31,480 --> 02:01:36,400
Speaker 2: playing where we play. I like I still like getting

2151
02:01:36,440 --> 02:01:42,480
Speaker 2: on stage and having that band move like an engine,

2152
02:01:42,520 --> 02:01:45,720
Speaker 2: Like everyone is moving and everyone is It's you know,

2153
02:01:45,800 --> 02:01:48,040
Speaker 2: some people have likened it to like esp but we

2154
02:01:48,120 --> 02:01:50,280
Speaker 2: all know where we're going. We're all writing. It's like

2155
02:01:50,360 --> 02:01:53,960
Speaker 2: riding away. It's like everyone's writing this way. And that's

2156
02:01:54,000 --> 02:01:57,000
Speaker 2: the magic when it hits and everyone's doing this thing,

2157
02:01:57,040 --> 02:01:59,000
Speaker 2: and it's kind of and it can fall off the

2158
02:01:59,080 --> 02:02:01,320
Speaker 2: rails at any time, and that's what makes it exciting

2159
02:02:01,400 --> 02:02:06,040
Speaker 2: to me. You know, that's you know, I think being

2160
02:02:06,120 --> 02:02:10,000
Speaker 2: older it made us realize that, you know, there are

2161
02:02:10,040 --> 02:02:12,160
Speaker 2: people that want to hear she talks to Angels are

2162
02:02:12,160 --> 02:02:15,520
Speaker 2: hard to handle our remedy every night, you know, so

2163
02:02:15,560 --> 02:02:17,280
Speaker 2: we try to do that. You know, we try to

2164
02:02:17,280 --> 02:02:21,360
Speaker 2: play those recognizable songs every night, but then we also

2165
02:02:21,480 --> 02:02:24,200
Speaker 2: will add some cool, rare stuff, and we'll add some covers,

2166
02:02:24,240 --> 02:02:26,160
Speaker 2: and we'll add these other things. So I kind of

2167
02:02:26,160 --> 02:02:28,080
Speaker 2: feel like we have more of a balance now than

2168
02:02:28,080 --> 02:02:28,560
Speaker 2: we used to.

2169
02:02:30,040 --> 02:02:33,720
Speaker 1: Now. When you broke it was the tail end of

2170
02:02:33,840 --> 02:02:39,560
Speaker 1: the MTV rock era, but MTV was still extremely powerful

2171
02:02:39,640 --> 02:02:42,160
Speaker 1: hip hop for his grunge. Then hip hop starts to

2172
02:02:42,200 --> 02:02:46,839
Speaker 1: take over. Then it was like a floating party, a club.

2173
02:02:46,960 --> 02:02:48,800
Speaker 1: I mean, you could even be simple about it, say

2174
02:02:48,840 --> 02:02:53,120
Speaker 1: it's Sunset Strip, it's the Rainbow, etc. We live in

2175
02:02:53,160 --> 02:02:57,400
Speaker 1: an era where everybody can connect via the Internet, but

2176
02:02:57,520 --> 02:03:01,520
Speaker 1: you could live anywhere this point in time, is your

2177
02:03:01,680 --> 02:03:06,640
Speaker 1: life primarily your family in the Black Rows? Or to

2178
02:03:06,760 --> 02:03:11,120
Speaker 1: what degree are you hearing from other people? I'm more looking,

2179
02:03:11,240 --> 02:03:13,280
Speaker 1: you know, what are you hearing? And how is it

2180
02:03:13,360 --> 02:03:17,120
Speaker 1: different today as opposed to yesterday? And what do you

2181
02:03:17,160 --> 02:03:21,720
Speaker 1: think caused that? Just the Internet or age?

2182
02:03:22,280 --> 02:03:25,480
Speaker 2: Yeah? For me, I mean, you know, my family is

2183
02:03:26,400 --> 02:03:28,560
Speaker 2: where I spend most of my time when I'm away

2184
02:03:28,600 --> 02:03:31,240
Speaker 2: from the Crows, because this is because I'm gone a lot,

2185
02:03:31,360 --> 02:03:34,800
Speaker 2: and so this is where I want to be. And

2186
02:03:34,920 --> 02:03:38,640
Speaker 2: but I do you know, we do experience things. We

2187
02:03:38,720 --> 02:03:45,240
Speaker 2: go out and see bands and you know, see it

2188
02:03:45,280 --> 02:03:48,200
Speaker 2: and do other things as well as far as what

2189
02:03:48,560 --> 02:03:51,600
Speaker 2: the world is now versus what it used to be.

2190
02:03:52,640 --> 02:03:55,520
Speaker 2: It's it's I I mean, it's kind of bizarre now.

2191
02:03:55,760 --> 02:04:03,360
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a you know, back then, there was

2192
02:04:04,480 --> 02:04:08,000
Speaker 2: a two formats that you could get your music out,

2193
02:04:08,200 --> 02:04:13,760
Speaker 2: you know, radio and MTV, and it was pretty focused

2194
02:04:14,360 --> 02:04:17,000
Speaker 2: and you knew that if you went out and toured

2195
02:04:17,040 --> 02:04:19,560
Speaker 2: and you worked hard, you could pretty much get somewhere

2196
02:04:19,600 --> 02:04:24,320
Speaker 2: if you worked at it for a while. You know, Now, man,

2197
02:04:24,360 --> 02:04:29,160
Speaker 2: there's streaming, there's social media. You know, my son tells

2198
02:04:29,200 --> 02:04:33,240
Speaker 2: me that everyone expects them to bring fans in and

2199
02:04:33,280 --> 02:04:36,160
Speaker 2: that everyone expects that. So like that, you know, you

2200
02:04:36,240 --> 02:04:38,320
Speaker 2: have to have x amount of social media people in

2201
02:04:38,400 --> 02:04:40,720
Speaker 2: order to get booked or this or that or streamed

2202
02:04:40,760 --> 02:04:46,360
Speaker 2: all this bullshit, and it just seems it seems bizarre

2203
02:04:46,400 --> 02:04:49,080
Speaker 2: to me. As far as being in a band, it's

2204
02:04:49,120 --> 02:04:52,480
Speaker 2: got to be really difficult because we grew up in

2205
02:04:52,520 --> 02:04:55,800
Speaker 2: a totally different time. And then you have a bunch

2206
02:04:55,840 --> 02:04:59,720
Speaker 2: of people now, the youth, they don't drink, they don't

2207
02:04:59,760 --> 02:05:01,360
Speaker 2: want to go out, they want to sit at home

2208
02:05:01,400 --> 02:05:05,160
Speaker 2: and watch Netflix or you know, do whatever they do

2209
02:05:05,640 --> 02:05:09,520
Speaker 2: on their phones or computers or whatever. And so you're

2210
02:05:09,560 --> 02:05:13,560
Speaker 2: competing with reality and with a virtual world, which is

2211
02:05:13,680 --> 02:05:19,160
Speaker 2: really intense and kind of anti humans. It just seems

2212
02:05:19,320 --> 02:05:23,040
Speaker 2: it seems the opposite of having human relations. And I

2213
02:05:23,080 --> 02:05:25,160
Speaker 2: think maybe that's why the youth is having such a

2214
02:05:25,160 --> 02:05:28,440
Speaker 2: hard time. Maybe that's why they have such anxiety. Maybe

2215
02:05:28,480 --> 02:05:33,120
Speaker 2: because they weren't kind of forced to go out and

2216
02:05:33,160 --> 02:05:35,960
Speaker 2: forge their way into the world and deal with failure

2217
02:05:36,120 --> 02:05:39,000
Speaker 2: and deal with rejection and be okay with it and

2218
02:05:39,040 --> 02:05:41,800
Speaker 2: try it again and try it again. You know, it's

2219
02:05:41,800 --> 02:05:46,200
Speaker 2: a different way of looking at it. And I think that,

2220
02:05:47,960 --> 02:05:52,000
Speaker 2: you know, I think that that's I mean, that's a shame.

2221
02:05:52,080 --> 02:05:54,800
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of there's a lot of

2222
02:05:55,080 --> 02:05:59,840
Speaker 2: missing out on humanity right now, and what it means

2223
02:05:59,840 --> 02:06:02,839
Speaker 2: to be human, or what it means to relate to humans,

2224
02:06:02,840 --> 02:06:07,920
Speaker 2: and what it means to hear things that aren't perfection

2225
02:06:08,400 --> 02:06:13,720
Speaker 2: or what is seems to be a perceived perfection. You know, music,

2226
02:06:15,200 --> 02:06:17,920
Speaker 2: when you play it, when you write it, you know,

2227
02:06:18,040 --> 02:06:20,320
Speaker 2: you get excited when a chorus is coming, you speed

2228
02:06:20,400 --> 02:06:23,400
Speaker 2: up a little bit, then you kind of slow down.

2229
02:06:23,440 --> 02:06:26,600
Speaker 2: When the verse comes, you reset. You know, there's a bridge,

2230
02:06:26,600 --> 02:06:29,080
Speaker 2: you lean into it, you kind of reset after this,

2231
02:06:29,240 --> 02:06:33,840
Speaker 2: depending on how it is. There's humans tend to you know,

2232
02:06:34,440 --> 02:06:37,680
Speaker 2: the key is relative, a key of a song is relative.

2233
02:06:38,920 --> 02:06:41,280
Speaker 2: Some people sing slightly flat, but it's part of the

2234
02:06:41,360 --> 02:06:44,640
Speaker 2: charm of their voice. Some people sing a little sharp,

2235
02:06:44,640 --> 02:06:46,840
Speaker 2: but it's part could be the part of a charm

2236
02:06:46,880 --> 02:06:49,960
Speaker 2: of their voice. But what we've done with these tools

2237
02:06:50,040 --> 02:06:54,040
Speaker 2: is we've eradicated the human element of making music. So

2238
02:06:54,760 --> 02:06:58,000
Speaker 2: John Paul, you know John Bonham's you know, squeaky kick

2239
02:06:58,040 --> 02:07:01,760
Speaker 2: drum sound and you know, since I've been loving you

2240
02:07:02,200 --> 02:07:06,800
Speaker 2: would be extracted by AI because it's not part of

2241
02:07:06,840 --> 02:07:10,680
Speaker 2: the song. The bleed of a horn part into a

2242
02:07:10,800 --> 02:07:14,560
Speaker 2: drums would be extracted because it's not part of the song.

2243
02:07:14,720 --> 02:07:17,840
Speaker 2: Or you know, everyone puts this music in a grid

2244
02:07:17,880 --> 02:07:19,640
Speaker 2: and it has to be perfectly in time, and the

2245
02:07:19,720 --> 02:07:22,440
Speaker 2: AI fixes it and all this shit, and at the

2246
02:07:22,520 --> 02:07:24,840
Speaker 2: end of the day, it's like, man, that's that's what

2247
02:07:24,960 --> 02:07:28,880
Speaker 2: music is. That's the magic. The human element of it

2248
02:07:28,960 --> 02:07:33,560
Speaker 2: is the magic. That's the uniqueness of it. You know,

2249
02:07:33,680 --> 02:07:39,560
Speaker 2: there's this song on Southern Harmony and Musical Companion one

2250
02:07:39,640 --> 02:07:43,440
Speaker 2: of our records called sometimes Salvation and at the end

2251
02:07:44,320 --> 02:07:47,280
Speaker 2: there's a circular chorus that keeps going around. And one time,

2252
02:07:48,040 --> 02:07:50,240
Speaker 2: because Steve and I recorded it in the room and

2253
02:07:50,280 --> 02:07:53,040
Speaker 2: I'm looking at him and we add a beat to it,

2254
02:07:53,920 --> 02:07:57,760
Speaker 2: and then just by accident, but we were both together,

2255
02:07:58,520 --> 02:08:02,000
Speaker 2: so we both do this thing, and you would look

2256
02:08:02,040 --> 02:08:04,440
Speaker 2: at it and it's different. It's never been played that

2257
02:08:04,480 --> 02:08:07,280
Speaker 2: way ever. Again, that's the one time it's been played

2258
02:08:07,320 --> 02:08:10,680
Speaker 2: that way. But it sounds fucking great. We didn't try

2259
02:08:10,720 --> 02:08:12,600
Speaker 2: to recreate it because we thought it would be a

2260
02:08:12,600 --> 02:08:15,240
Speaker 2: little hokey to recreate it. But that's a piece of

2261
02:08:15,240 --> 02:08:18,120
Speaker 2: magic that was caught in that moment, and that's what

2262
02:08:18,280 --> 02:08:22,160
Speaker 2: makes that magical. And when you suck all of that

2263
02:08:22,320 --> 02:08:24,400
Speaker 2: out and you take all the humanity out, and you

2264
02:08:24,440 --> 02:08:27,560
Speaker 2: take the breath of humanity out of music, the music

2265
02:08:27,600 --> 02:08:30,200
Speaker 2: that speeds up or slows down or does this or

2266
02:08:30,200 --> 02:08:32,960
Speaker 2: does that, that's when it gets really kind of weird

2267
02:08:32,960 --> 02:08:34,760
Speaker 2: and you start to look at this thing and you're like,

2268
02:08:34,800 --> 02:08:38,320
Speaker 2: what are we doing? You know, what the human ears

2269
02:08:38,360 --> 02:08:41,360
Speaker 2: meant to hear is the ear and the heart, Like

2270
02:08:41,400 --> 02:08:43,320
Speaker 2: the music needs to hit you in the heart and

2271
02:08:43,360 --> 02:08:45,320
Speaker 2: you need to be able to feel something from it.

2272
02:08:46,160 --> 02:08:50,680
Speaker 2: And so you know, that's where a lot of this.

2273
02:08:51,520 --> 02:08:55,640
Speaker 2: I do think technology in particular kind of took over

2274
02:08:56,600 --> 02:09:00,600
Speaker 2: and has deadened the senses of what music as it can.

2275
02:09:00,520 --> 02:09:04,680
Speaker 1: Be finally you grew up there. You haven't spent all

2276
02:09:04,680 --> 02:09:08,600
Speaker 1: your life there since. But what is different about Atlanta

2277
02:09:09,560 --> 02:09:12,880
Speaker 1: as opposed to New York in LA What is different

2278
02:09:12,920 --> 02:09:13,880
Speaker 1: about the South?

2279
02:09:15,960 --> 02:09:19,720
Speaker 2: The South, you know, we grew up and by osmosis

2280
02:09:20,720 --> 02:09:23,640
Speaker 2: we were I mean, you know, the South is a

2281
02:09:23,680 --> 02:09:29,040
Speaker 2: fascinating place, and it's a sensual place. The food is sensual,

2282
02:09:29,200 --> 02:09:33,120
Speaker 2: the sounds are sensual. The weather, I mean, shit, you know,

2283
02:09:33,200 --> 02:09:35,720
Speaker 2: in the summer it's fucking hot. It's this, it's that

2284
02:09:36,200 --> 02:09:40,160
Speaker 2: you have seasons. But there's a culture in the South

2285
02:09:40,360 --> 02:09:43,320
Speaker 2: that doesn't exist anywhere else in America. There's I don't

2286
02:09:43,320 --> 02:09:46,160
Speaker 2: think there's really anywhere in America that has a specific

2287
02:09:46,240 --> 02:09:50,080
Speaker 2: culture that that's like that the South does. And the

2288
02:09:50,120 --> 02:09:54,280
Speaker 2: South culture is an amalgamation of all these different sort

2289
02:09:54,320 --> 02:09:56,760
Speaker 2: of cultures that came together and created this whole thing

2290
02:09:57,280 --> 02:10:00,400
Speaker 2: from New Orleans to Atlanta to the Appalachian Mountains and

2291
02:10:00,440 --> 02:10:03,240
Speaker 2: everything kind of came And if you think about Southern

2292
02:10:03,240 --> 02:10:07,400
Speaker 2: writers and Southern musicians and Southern painters and Southern filmmakers

2293
02:10:07,400 --> 02:10:09,920
Speaker 2: and Southern and all of these things, there's a very

2294
02:10:09,960 --> 02:10:13,320
Speaker 2: specific thread that kind of goes through it that makes

2295
02:10:13,360 --> 02:10:19,920
Speaker 2: you feel a part of something something different, And there's

2296
02:10:19,920 --> 02:10:22,360
Speaker 2: also a lot of shame down there, I mean from

2297
02:10:22,400 --> 02:10:25,640
Speaker 2: the past. I mean, it's there's a there's a whole

2298
02:10:26,440 --> 02:10:31,240
Speaker 2: paradoxical existence in the South. That's but it's amazing, you know,

2299
02:10:31,320 --> 02:10:35,360
Speaker 2: you have all these elements and so you know, I mean,

2300
02:10:35,360 --> 02:10:38,120
Speaker 2: if you think about it coming from it, even from Georgia,

2301
02:10:38,200 --> 02:10:41,120
Speaker 2: you have Grand Parsons, you have ram, you have Little Richard,

2302
02:10:41,200 --> 02:10:45,520
Speaker 2: you have Hotus Reading, you have you know, you have

2303
02:10:45,680 --> 02:10:48,800
Speaker 2: the Almond Brothers. You know, you have the B fifty two's,

2304
02:10:49,080 --> 02:10:51,640
Speaker 2: you know, you have bands like us, you have you know,

2305
02:10:51,800 --> 02:10:54,640
Speaker 2: all of this music that comes from this one place,

2306
02:10:55,080 --> 02:10:58,320
Speaker 2: you know, and then you expand that out into Alabama

2307
02:10:58,320 --> 02:11:03,240
Speaker 2: and Mississippi and Louisiana and all the different types of

2308
02:11:03,360 --> 02:11:06,280
Speaker 2: music and the type and just the rich tapestry of

2309
02:11:06,320 --> 02:11:10,880
Speaker 2: all of this. Uh, you know, creativity that comes from

2310
02:11:10,880 --> 02:11:13,920
Speaker 2: that place, and it's in the soil and it's in

2311
02:11:14,080 --> 02:11:18,120
Speaker 2: the energy of the place. Uh. And it's just you know,

2312
02:11:18,240 --> 02:11:20,760
Speaker 2: there's there's some but it's getting lost too, you know,

2313
02:11:21,640 --> 02:11:26,160
Speaker 2: like it's it's it's kind of leveling out and changing

2314
02:11:26,360 --> 02:11:29,120
Speaker 2: as well. But when we grew up there, at the

2315
02:11:29,160 --> 02:11:33,280
Speaker 2: time we grew up that was palpable. You know, Rim

2316
02:11:33,400 --> 02:11:35,560
Speaker 2: was just as much of a Southern band to me

2317
02:11:35,840 --> 02:11:39,120
Speaker 2: as Skinnrid was, or you know, the Almond brothers or

2318
02:11:39,160 --> 02:11:41,320
Speaker 2: whoever it may be that, but their vision of the

2319
02:11:41,360 --> 02:11:44,400
Speaker 2: South was different. It was there was something really beautiful

2320
02:11:44,440 --> 02:11:47,360
Speaker 2: about it, there was something tender about it, and there

2321
02:11:47,400 --> 02:11:50,640
Speaker 2: was something incredibly artistic about it, but it was no

2322
02:11:50,800 --> 02:11:51,920
Speaker 2: less southern. You know.

2323
02:11:53,560 --> 02:11:57,280
Speaker 1: Well, it's been amazing talking to you, Rich, because this

2324
02:11:57,320 --> 02:11:59,760
Speaker 1: is gonna come out in a way that's going to

2325
02:11:59,800 --> 02:12:02,120
Speaker 1: sound I'm like judgment, but I'm bringing up. Your brother

2326
02:12:02,240 --> 02:12:06,560
Speaker 1: tends to eat up all the year, and therefore you

2327
02:12:06,600 --> 02:12:09,760
Speaker 1: don't get to talk that much, which gives one the

2328
02:12:09,800 --> 02:12:13,840
Speaker 1: impression that you're shy and you don't talk that much.

2329
02:12:14,640 --> 02:12:17,920
Speaker 1: But you can talk and you're you're a very sharp guy.

2330
02:12:18,280 --> 02:12:21,080
Speaker 1: I mean, listen some of the records you know, no More,

2331
02:12:21,160 --> 02:12:23,400
Speaker 1: No More, ten years gone, and all these others. I

2332
02:12:23,440 --> 02:12:25,920
Speaker 1: can talk to you for days. There's so much other stuff,

2333
02:12:26,400 --> 02:12:30,040
Speaker 1: but we're gonna stop it here for now. Rich. I

2334
02:12:30,080 --> 02:12:32,240
Speaker 1: want to thank you so much for taking this time

2335
02:12:32,280 --> 02:12:33,120
Speaker 1: with my audience.

2336
02:12:34,000 --> 02:12:35,800
Speaker 2: Of course, thank you so much for having me on.

2337
02:12:35,920 --> 02:12:37,000
Speaker 2: It was great talking to him.

2338
02:12:37,560 --> 02:13:01,520
Speaker 1: You bet till next time. This is Bob left six