Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Inside the
Speaker 1: Studio on iHeart Radio. My name is Jordan runt Dog,
Speaker 1: but enough about me. My guest today is a Nashville
Speaker 1: based singer, songwriter, multi instrumentalist, and all around good dude.
Speaker 1: You've likely experienced his seemingly boundless positivity on albums like
Speaker 1: The Walking in Between and Brand New. Like so many
Speaker 1: of us during the pandemic, he turned to music for
Speaker 1: soulless In the process, he rediscovered the healing and even
Speaker 1: somewhat mystical properties of song. Now, unlike so many of us,
Speaker 1: he channeled this rekindled passion into a multimedia extravaganza, appropriately
Speaker 1: called The Joy of Music. This ambitious project and compasses
Speaker 1: an album, a multipart short film, and an elaborate tour.
Speaker 1: For help, He's enlisted a truly mind bending array of talent,
Speaker 1: branching from Kenny G and Snoop Dogg to Taylor Goldsmith
Speaker 1: of the folk rock band DAWs, the One Voice Children's Choir,
Speaker 1: and even the talented folks at the Jim Henson Creature Shop.
Speaker 1: The album's due out March eleven, but he's already dropped
Speaker 1: the first three songs or chapters as he thinks of them,
Speaker 1: all are imbued with his infectious optimism. Dream on, the
Speaker 1: opening track, urges listeners to reconnect with their childhood ambitions
Speaker 1: and offers a welcome reminder that it's never too late
Speaker 1: to live your dreams. Supernatural, which features Grammy Award winning
Speaker 1: jazz icon Dave Cause, is an exuberant meditation on the
Speaker 1: magic and mysteries of music. Then there's Living My Best Life,
Speaker 1: a surprising title for a song written in the midst
Speaker 1: of global lockdown, but it's thankfulness is sincere. In fact,
Speaker 1: it's a necessary lesson in gratitude for even small things
Speaker 1: like sunrises, family, and yes, even ottomans. I'm so happy
Speaker 1: to welcome the truly delightful Ben Rector. I hope you
Speaker 1: enjoy our conversation. I mean, your latest album is called
Speaker 1: The Joy of Music. Now, this isn't just an album.
Speaker 1: This is a whole, a whole extravagans, the whole production.
Speaker 1: We've got a record, a short film, and hopefully a
Speaker 1: tour on the horizon. Hugely ambitious. How did this all
Speaker 1: come together? You know? Um, it's the first time that
Speaker 1: instead of kind of doing a lot of things at once,
Speaker 1: I was really just being creative because like as stuff
Speaker 1: as you know, moved forward, there hasn't been a time
Speaker 1: where I was ever truly off. Even in seasons where
Speaker 1: I wasn't like quote unquote on tour, I was still
Speaker 1: doing one offs and that kind of stuff. And so, uh,
Speaker 1: when the pandemic happened, my wife and I also had
Speaker 1: twin boys a year and a half ago, which is
Speaker 1: just a total cluster. It's it is insanity. So I
Speaker 1: mean we were we were like full on like not
Speaker 1: doing anything, and so I had, for the first time
Speaker 1: had the ability to just like really focus on creativity
Speaker 1: with no agenda. It wasn't like I gotta get this
Speaker 1: done because the tour is coming up. And so what
Speaker 1: ended up happening was I kind of got to return
Speaker 1: to why I started making music in the first place,
Speaker 1: and like that kind kept growing on itself and then
Speaker 1: looked up and there's like we're doing a short film
Speaker 1: and you know, all of that kind of stuff. So
Speaker 1: it really, man, it was just like for the first
Speaker 1: time I got to be a kid again with no expectations.
Speaker 1: And I was also like, man, like this is my
Speaker 1: like one wild and precious life. Was just like do
Speaker 1: something crazy and fun because it's been I've done it
Speaker 1: for a long time professionally and be easy to lose
Speaker 1: a little bit of that like kind of spark, and
Speaker 1: then also honestly to be afraid of failing, because like,
Speaker 1: once the ball is rolling, you're like, I could mess
Speaker 1: this up, Like this could go poorly. I could look stupid.
Speaker 1: So I was just like, I don't want to look
Speaker 1: back when I'm sixty and be like, oh, I was
Speaker 1: real nervous, but I I did induced if I was like,
Speaker 1: we're making the movie, We're doing all this stuff, why
Speaker 1: not you know what I mean? Oh, totally right on.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm so interested in in the film component.
Speaker 1: I went to film school myself in addition to being
Speaker 1: a huge music fan. So the intersection of those two
Speaker 1: things is really interesting to me. Did the music dictate
Speaker 1: kind of where the narrative would go or was there
Speaker 1: a story you wanted to tell and just using music
Speaker 1: to help the narrative along. That's a great question. Um
Speaker 1: it really everything kind of like congealed together and grew together.
Speaker 1: Nothing was really like this is what everything's going to
Speaker 1: be about, and I kind of found the common thread
Speaker 1: and the songs I was writing of joy. But I
Speaker 1: wasn't like and I'm gonna make like a giant red
Speaker 1: character and make a movie about it. It was just
Speaker 1: kind of like I think one of the earlier songs
Speaker 1: in this batch of songs called Supernatural, which is like
Speaker 1: kind of like fun like saxophone, it's kind of crazy,
Speaker 1: and I was like, dude, I should totally dance to
Speaker 1: this song, which I am terrified of, like mortified. I
Speaker 1: don't like dancing at weddings. I'm just like that's not
Speaker 1: my thing. And so because I was like, I I
Speaker 1: need a function at weddings that's not on the dance floor. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get behind this thing, Okay totally. And so
Speaker 1: but I just like deep inside, I was like, the
Speaker 1: music video for this has to be dancing, Like it
Speaker 1: just has to be because there's no other way to
Speaker 1: do it. And I think like that kind of like
Speaker 1: started the ball rolling and I kind of springboarded off
Speaker 1: of those ideas, and the idea just kind of grew,
Speaker 1: and like you know, as anything creative goes, you start
Speaker 1: sort of like building a contraption. Then you kind of
Speaker 1: like build another room to it and a backdoor into
Speaker 1: it and whatever. It really was all together. It wasn't
Speaker 1: like everything is this narrative. And as as as things
Speaker 1: got more honed in, uh, you know, it became clear
Speaker 1: what it was going to be. Oh, it's so cool.
Speaker 1: I mean, I well, first of all, I do also
Speaker 1: want to say, you know, when it's very apparent when
Speaker 1: you look at me that I don't want to dance,
Speaker 1: that did not come across looking at you. So I
Speaker 1: just it just from from one non dancer to another.
Speaker 1: I want to say, it looked great, but I appreciate
Speaker 1: that I was. It's embarrassing how hard I tried. I like,
Speaker 1: I worked really hard to look that average. I really did.
Speaker 1: Average is what we shoot for. Like, I totally get that.
Speaker 1: Oh man, I mean so you mentioned the red character.
Speaker 1: I mean you got to work with my understanding at
Speaker 1: least a group of really heroes of mine. The Gym
Speaker 1: Henson Creature Shop. What was that like? So? Uh, it
Speaker 1: was totally insane. And this is I mean, like so
Speaker 1: much of the last year of my life has been
Speaker 1: this where I'm just like, what if we asked X,
Speaker 1: y Z person or group to be a part of
Speaker 1: this and people kept saying yes, which is incredible. So
Speaker 1: I kind of started thinking it would be cool to
Speaker 1: have kind of like a almost a mascot, like a
Speaker 1: lovable giant character to embody Joy, which is what the
Speaker 1: record is about. And um, obviously Henson Creature Shop is
Speaker 1: the best in the world at making that stuff. Talk
Speaker 1: to them and I was like, man, I don't know
Speaker 1: if we can really pull this off. It's you know,
Speaker 1: the lead times intense, it's pretty expensive. Talk to some
Speaker 1: other people, learned a lot about building mascots and realized
Speaker 1: that Henson was the only group that could do it. Um,
Speaker 1: And what actually happened is crazy. And you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know if you'll pick up what I'm putting down here,
Speaker 1: but basically, the whole deal with Joy is that Joy
Speaker 1: is like a real thing. It's like nobody made it.
Speaker 1: And so what really happened with Henson was, uh, we
Speaker 1: start making it. I did some sketches, their guy did sketches.
Speaker 1: They start building this huge traption and then we look
Speaker 1: up towards the end and they're like, this is gonna
Speaker 1: be too hard to do. But you know what's really crazy,
Speaker 1: there's a guy that looks just like this and he
Speaker 1: lives in Nashville. You should just give him a call.
Speaker 1: His name is Joy, and I was like, that's insane.
Speaker 1: I wish you just told me that upfront, and so
Speaker 1: end up calling Joy. He lived in Murphy's borrow and
Speaker 1: now he's in the videos. But Henson did help me
Speaker 1: kind of cast cast Joy. If you will, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, I I do know what you mean.
Speaker 1: There is I don't know if winks really translate in
Speaker 1: the audio, but yeah, hopefully to folks listening right there,
Speaker 1: I think I think they'll get it, you know, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it looks so good. I know you recently
Speaker 1: had sort of a combo listening party and premiere for
Speaker 1: the record in the film at the at the Franklin
Speaker 1: Theater in Tennessee. What was the response there to that? Man?
Speaker 1: It was it was just like such an enjoyable experience. Um,
Speaker 1: and it has felt crazy to me that I've been
Speaker 1: sitting on you know, if anybody listening is like, I
Speaker 1: know who you are, which is totally fine. This is
Speaker 1: all pretty out of the box for me. And so
Speaker 1: I've been sitting on all of this for like, you know,
Speaker 1: almost a year, feeling just like I can't believe we're
Speaker 1: doing this. And so to get to share it and
Speaker 1: it's like full form with people and just get to
Speaker 1: watch them experience It was just like such a pleasure
Speaker 1: for me. And usually, like if I'm playing a show,
Speaker 1: I enjoy it, but it's pretty intense, like I'm like
Speaker 1: really in it, trying not to mess up. I'm pretty
Speaker 1: aware of like a lot of stuff. And this was
Speaker 1: so fun just to get to watch people see it
Speaker 1: and like other people will have that experience at some point.
Speaker 1: But with what social media is, what with with what
Speaker 1: streaming is, we can't just dump, you know, a thirty
Speaker 1: minute short film onto Instagram. That's just not gonna work.
Speaker 1: You kind of have to like meter it out. So
Speaker 1: it was really special for me knowing that like we
Speaker 1: weren't gonna get to experience it like that again for
Speaker 1: a while, and to get to like watch it in
Speaker 1: a movie theater and listen to the record, it was
Speaker 1: just like so incredible, and it was like I felt
Speaker 1: like the everything coming to fruition, all these crazy ideas
Speaker 1: I'd had to the past year to get to like
Speaker 1: watch people experience it was really special. Oh that's got
Speaker 1: to be a peak moment. I mean it was speaking
Speaker 1: of of doing these things live and what's the live
Speaker 1: component kind of look like I'm almost picturing like those
Speaker 1: big review shows like Joe Cocker and Mad Dogs and
Speaker 1: Englishman or the Icon Tina Turner Reviewer or something like that,
Speaker 1: How's it gonna go? Totally so, and it's it's a
Speaker 1: little bit of a bummer because like what I really
Speaker 1: wanted to do was totally um blend the aesthetic of
Speaker 1: the short film, which a lot of it is shot
Speaker 1: in this like large psych space like a it looks
Speaker 1: like an infinity wall. It's like curved white walls where
Speaker 1: it looks like you're in space. And if we were
Speaker 1: in theaters this time, it would be easy because we
Speaker 1: would just take like a huge backdrop that's white and
Speaker 1: curve at the stage. But we're playing a lot of
Speaker 1: outdoor venues and you can't do that because the wind
Speaker 1: it'll blow back and forth. And so I kind of emmbracing.
Speaker 1: Like one of the early models I had for some
Speaker 1: of the aesthetics of the record was like visually was
Speaker 1: like Lawrence Welk Show or whatever, kind of like the
Speaker 1: old kind of funny whatever. And so we started we
Speaker 1: started working on like the lighting designs and stuff, and
Speaker 1: I think it will just be like a big classic
Speaker 1: show we're not going to bring out For a second,
Speaker 1: it was like, are we gonna do video wall? And
Speaker 1: I feel like every tour that's going out right now
Speaker 1: has video wall, And then the real deal is like
Speaker 1: you have to make so much content to use it correctly.
Speaker 1: And I was just like, I just want to put
Speaker 1: on a great show and not have it just be
Speaker 1: like watch this movie again. Um. So basically it'll be
Speaker 1: like pretty classic concert lighting. We'll have a couple of
Speaker 1: cool tricks, Like we're gonna make you know that thing
Speaker 1: in New York. It's like people kind of hate it.
Speaker 1: It's uh would love. It's like the red letters um utu.
Speaker 1: We're making like essentially the the font and like logo
Speaker 1: of the album into a giant red sign and it'll
Speaker 1: like pop up behind us. So it'll be like a
Speaker 1: big like physical thing. Oh cool. Yeah, Oh man, that's
Speaker 1: all I mean. I'm thinking about. You see the what
Speaker 1: was it called the Summer of Soul. I think it
Speaker 1: was that concert that was up in Harlem in that Yeah,
Speaker 1: that great like kind of rainbowie backdrop and everything. Yea
Speaker 1: of all this classic classic performance backdrops and stuff. It's
Speaker 1: it's so cool, and it's such a it's like such
Speaker 1: a specific like character and vibe you can kind of
Speaker 1: like tap into. That's always been important to me is
Speaker 1: to like I feel like when something feels familiar, it's
Speaker 1: like sort of like sneaks around the gate keeper of
Speaker 1: like what you're You're like, oh, I know this, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's just like your childhood. Yeah, totally,
Speaker 1: and I love that feeling. So Earlier this month, in January,
Speaker 1: you you released I think three singles all at once.
Speaker 1: I think they were the first three tracks of the album.
Speaker 1: What made you choose those three? Were they sort of
Speaker 1: like the first three chapters in a book? Yeah, so basically,
Speaker 1: And it's so funny. Man. I feel like in the
Speaker 1: past year two years, it just feels like nobody knows
Speaker 1: how to release music anymore. There's people surprise dropping albums,
Speaker 1: there's people really seen a song a month for like
Speaker 1: twenty four months, like I don't. It's changing rapidly. So basically,
Speaker 1: my whole thing was like, Okay, you have to in streaming,
Speaker 1: no matter how good the songs are, if you dump
Speaker 1: too many songs at once onto a platform, the first
Speaker 1: x amount are going to get a bunch of streams,
Speaker 1: and over the next few years, the last few songs
Speaker 1: are just gonna be like way less and I didn't
Speaker 1: want to do that. But also, this record is a record,
Speaker 1: it's like a whole thing, and I didn't want to
Speaker 1: just be like, here's one song, enjoy it, here's another song.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to like create a little bit of
Speaker 1: context to let people know, like, hey, like these are
Speaker 1: kind of the foul poles of the record. It's like
Speaker 1: this is we're going this far, this way, this far,
Speaker 1: that way, and kind of like to let them know, like, hey,
Speaker 1: this is a different thing than I've done before. Get
Speaker 1: excited about it. Um So yeah, it's it's the first
Speaker 1: three songs in order on the album, and the short
Speaker 1: film is actually the first six songs in order. It's
Speaker 1: like one or two for five, six and then the
Speaker 1: last song. But it's like if you just watch the
Speaker 1: films straight through, it's those songs. So the first three
Speaker 1: songs of the record are almost like the first half
Speaker 1: of the short film. I was really taken by by
Speaker 1: the song Supernatural, which is, you know about those beautiful
Speaker 1: moments and connections and occurrences that feel part of something greater,
Speaker 1: a bigger force, or a grand plan. I want to
Speaker 1: ask you, is there a supernatural element to songwriting? You
Speaker 1: hear a lot of artists say that. You know, it's
Speaker 1: a lot of cases they don't know where the melodies
Speaker 1: come from. They don't know where the song comes from.
Speaker 1: It just you're plugged into something. Is that how it
Speaker 1: works for you? I think so everybody that I've met
Speaker 1: that I admire who does like creative work sustainably at
Speaker 1: a high level, it feels like there is that sort
Speaker 1: of magical, supernatural like something just like lightning strikes you
Speaker 1: and it's just like stuff's happening. But it also feels
Speaker 1: like you have to pair that with almost like a
Speaker 1: professional sports like approach, where I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people view creativity as this only magical thing. It's like, yeah, man,
Speaker 1: you just wait around and lightning strikes and you're weirdly
Speaker 1: attuned to that. But man, like everybody, like I said,
Speaker 1: everybody I've met that I like really admire after you
Speaker 1: push past whatever, like the near they have past that
Speaker 1: is like a professional athlete, and they're like, I write
Speaker 1: every day, I'm like deep into this, And so I
Speaker 1: think it is both like anytime I'm just trying to
Speaker 1: grind it out and nothing's happening, I usually need to
Speaker 1: step back a little bit. But anytime I'm waiting around
Speaker 1: too much, that dies out too So to me, like
Speaker 1: I always treat it when I'm home like a job,
Speaker 1: like I write five days a week all the time.
Speaker 1: I'm just like trying to sharpen my tools so that
Speaker 1: when I do get a lightning strike, I can carve
Speaker 1: out exactly what it's supposed to be with no loss.
Speaker 1: So like it's a little bit of both for me.
Speaker 1: And there definitely are moments there's a number on this
Speaker 1: record that we're just like, wow, that just like plopped
Speaker 1: out of thin air. But for every one of those,
Speaker 1: I'm just like sitting right here at this keyboard just
Speaker 1: like writing for a long time every day. And so
Speaker 1: that's a pattern that I've seen replicated with a bunch
Speaker 1: of successful people, and I haven't run into that many
Speaker 1: people that are like, no, man, I don't do it
Speaker 1: like that at all, And they're different approaches kind of,
Speaker 1: but like to me, it ends up kind of being
Speaker 1: like a sport where it's like you could look at
Speaker 1: Tiger Woods or Phil mickleson or whoever and be like
Speaker 1: you're just so gifted, and they're probably like, I mean
Speaker 1: kind of but also like I'm just pounding golf balls, man,
Speaker 1: So it's a little bit of both for me and
Speaker 1: for a lot of people. I think, what's that line.
Speaker 1: I think it was Jack Nicholas, the golfer who said, uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: the more I practice, the luckier here I get. That's right,
Speaker 1: And that's and and and it really is true because
Speaker 1: like I think a lot of that stuff that feels
Speaker 1: like it's just coming out of thin air is actually
Speaker 1: like just your reflexes kind of like stepping into what's
Speaker 1: happening where like and and and they're definitely definitely is
Speaker 1: a very real, kind of like strange, otherworldly thing where
Speaker 1: it's just like I have no idea why something would
Speaker 1: just like PLoP out of nowhere. That happens, but he
Speaker 1: usually doesn't happen a lot to people that aren't working
Speaker 1: on it, Like it might lightning might strike someone once,
Speaker 1: and if they're not really working on it, probably never
Speaker 1: gonna strike again. You know what I mean. You just
Speaker 1: gotta pay those neural pathways. Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1: Did you read I'm I'm an absolutely ridiculous Beatles nerds,
Speaker 1: so please shut me up. At any point, did you
Speaker 1: read the new Paul McCartney lyrics book where he goes?
Speaker 1: I think he picked something like a hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: of his songs. I have that book right by the
Speaker 1: Steve Turner one too. Okay, So I got that book
Speaker 1: for Christmas, the one you're talking about. I haven't read
Speaker 1: it yet, but I know I did just finish Get
Speaker 1: Back though, probably three or four days ago. So the
Speaker 1: Beatles are my favorite band. I'm just all about it.
Speaker 1: I love that you are too, but I haven't. I
Speaker 1: haven't haven't dove into that book yet, but I want to.
Speaker 1: It's sitting on my shelf staring at me. What did
Speaker 1: you think of Get Back in terms of a lot
Speaker 1: of people? I I play music, I don't write it.
Speaker 1: But for people that I know who do write it,
Speaker 1: they I've heard a lot of people say that there's
Speaker 1: never been a more honest depiction of the creative process.
Speaker 1: Then go Back totally, I think, so, man, I have
Speaker 1: so many thoughts I get Back, but I would distill
Speaker 1: them to like, I definitely feel like that's real where
Speaker 1: it's and in a weird way, I think people that
Speaker 1: don't maybe you don't write songs all the time or
Speaker 1: probably like this is magical. I can't believe I'm watching it.
Speaker 1: And it was almost frustrating for me because I'm like,
Speaker 1: close the loop, you're right there, just keep going, And
Speaker 1: like it was interesting to see how um loose they
Speaker 1: are with everything, like so just like still kind of
Speaker 1: learning the chords, still kind of figuring stuff, like very
Speaker 1: vast changes from take to take, and now everything is
Speaker 1: so like dialed in. But I feel like I feel
Speaker 1: bad saying this, but I wanted to be like someone
Speaker 1: just be like focus, guys, just ten minut it, stop
Speaker 1: playing other stuff, just like really try to finish this. Um.
Speaker 1: I think it was a very accurate depiction. So cool
Speaker 1: to see, you know, let it be come together here
Speaker 1: McCartney doing like the Long and Winding Road. And then
Speaker 1: it was also unpopular take. Kind of interesting to see
Speaker 1: some of it and be like, this isn't that great,
Speaker 1: Like it's it's great. It's great because it's the Beatles, right,
Speaker 1: it's great because you're seeing history. But I always think
Speaker 1: if you remove the context from it and you were like, hey,
Speaker 1: like this isn't the Beatles, Like these are my buddies
Speaker 1: from Des Moines? What do you think of this song?
Speaker 1: I'd be like, it's fine, I guess like kind of
Speaker 1: a cool vibe and very few moments of that. But
Speaker 1: it was crazy to see, like you know, all time
Speaker 1: great songs next to some songs you're like, that's fine,
Speaker 1: that's okay, um, But I love getting to see it,
Speaker 1: and I love getting to see just how accidental and
Speaker 1: how like loose they were with it. That's like a
Speaker 1: good thing for me to learn. Yeah, I mean keeping
Speaker 1: that element of fun. I feel like I really it
Speaker 1: to cease, like a sociologist take or real psychologists take
Speaker 1: on like either personal dynamics at play and creativity and
Speaker 1: how that goes hand in hands. And I think, realistically, man,
Speaker 1: I think that's for me as a creative person. My
Speaker 1: biggest takeaway from the whole thing was like, hey, the
Speaker 1: importance of always including fun and like inspiration and leaving
Speaker 1: room for stuff to grow, because I can tend to
Speaker 1: want to like tighten things up, like like let's sew
Speaker 1: this thing together, and they're just like we're not even
Speaker 1: gonna finish this, We're gonna play this other dumb song.
Speaker 1: And some of that left the door open for pool
Speaker 1: stuff to happen, and I mean, obviously the best band
Speaker 1: of all time. Like something to learn from that, I
Speaker 1: mean a lot. Always it brings you back to your
Speaker 1: record the joy of music, I mean, has has the
Speaker 1: last two years now, I guess I gotta say has
Speaker 1: that I feel like, well, we've all been forced to
Speaker 1: sort of take our joy where we can find it.
Speaker 1: Um has it changed the relationship to music in any
Speaker 1: way the past too years. This is gonna sound so
Speaker 1: like kumbaya and silly, but like it has fundamentally changed
Speaker 1: my relationship with music because I think I was, I
Speaker 1: was pretty burned out, Like I'm so thankful to get
Speaker 1: to do this as a job and thankful that anybody
Speaker 1: cares about the music that I make. But there have
Speaker 1: been a lot of times where just the reality of
Speaker 1: like so much travel, so much pressure, so much like
Speaker 1: managing of different people and different things just kind of
Speaker 1: put it put me in a place where I was
Speaker 1: like I had accepted, like I may never feel like
Speaker 1: I felt when I was like eighteen about this again,
Speaker 1: but I'll enjoy the parts of it I can. And
Speaker 1: for the first time in the last you know, a
Speaker 1: couple of years. Maybe the last eighteen months. I feel
Speaker 1: like I was able to stumble back into that where
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my gosh, like I'm doing this
Speaker 1: because I love it, and I'm like excited to wake
Speaker 1: up every morning and to work on this, and I
Speaker 1: feel almost no fear of failure. I'm just like, let's
Speaker 1: just do this. Let's make something that's just like wonderful
Speaker 1: and beautiful people to enjoy. And I if you had
Speaker 1: asked me that question three years ago, like could I
Speaker 1: feel like that, I'd be like, no, man, you can
Speaker 1: only feel like that when you're just starting out. And
Speaker 1: it's been such like a beautiful journey for me because
Speaker 1: that's not I'm super pessimistic. I'm pretty critical, Like yeah, totally,
Speaker 1: and so that's it. It was so fun to get
Speaker 1: to just like, uh, jump into like the pool like
Speaker 1: head first, to be like, yeah, dude, let's do this,
Speaker 1: Like it was really really enjoyable for me. I am,
Speaker 1: given what I know of you and your music and
Speaker 1: the songs on this record, I'm surprised to hear you
Speaker 1: say that you you're pessimistic. I mean, you've got the
Speaker 1: track living My Best Life on there, which again was
Speaker 1: not something I mean here hearing that title out of context,
Speaker 1: it's not something that you would imagine would have been
Speaker 1: written in Lockdown. I know it's real. I mean, listen
Speaker 1: to the lyrics. It comes from a genuine place for you.
Speaker 1: It sounds like yeah, and I kind of what what
Speaker 1: I like about that is like I feel like, um,
Speaker 1: there's some artists who can just be like stand back
Speaker 1: and watch me be like so cool and look at
Speaker 1: like how like mysterious and awesome. I am, I don't
Speaker 1: really have that like card to play, but that's just
Speaker 1: that's not something I'm good at. But I am like, hey,
Speaker 1: maybe I have a unique viewpoint of being a pretty
Speaker 1: normal person. But like I don't hear a lot of
Speaker 1: people talking about that stuff in pop music. And that's
Speaker 1: really like a large portion of our lives is not
Speaker 1: like mountaintop experience are not mountaintop experiences. They're just kind
Speaker 1: of like finding peace where we can, find enjoy where
Speaker 1: we can. And so living my best life for me
Speaker 1: was a celebration of like, honestly a hard season, like
Speaker 1: Hillary and I are raising three tiny children in Lockdown.
Speaker 1: That's brutal, and so it was kind of like a
Speaker 1: weird realization for me, I was like, the happiest that
Speaker 1: I've been as an adult has been in the past
Speaker 1: two years. And if you zoomed out and you showed
Speaker 1: someone like game film of my life and it was like, hey,
Speaker 1: well he's on a tour bus right now and playing
Speaker 1: on TV and concerts and all this exciting stuff, and
Speaker 1: now he's like changing diapers and walking the neighborhood with
Speaker 1: the kids. Where do you think is happier everybody would
Speaker 1: be like on the tour bus. But in reality, it
Speaker 1: was weird to see that, like my me, living my
Speaker 1: best life is actually like being in a routine, being
Speaker 1: a dad, like getting to work on stuff that I love,
Speaker 1: and so like I it was sort of like a
Speaker 1: weird backdoor into that concept where I feel like people
Speaker 1: usually mean it in sort of a mountaintop way, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, actually, weirdly, I think for a lot
Speaker 1: of us, our best life is probably like found where
Speaker 1: we are and not in like some aspirational thing, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Oh yeah, I mean that's something
Speaker 1: that I feel like, you know, some people spend their
Speaker 1: whole lives and they don't get to that place of
Speaker 1: totally acceptance too. I mean, that's that's that's a reason
Speaker 1: for joy right there. Totally. Oh, man, I mean it
Speaker 1: really does. It comes across in so many places on
Speaker 1: this record. I mean, as you said, I mean you
Speaker 1: haven't been able to really sit still since you're what
Speaker 1: eighteen too, So I mean just I'm glad to hear
Speaker 1: that it was a fruitful time for you creatively, because
Speaker 1: it really seems like, you know, you want to overdrive.
Speaker 1: Thanks man, I appreciate that. Thanks, And I feel like
Speaker 1: you're your your your your questions are wonderful. I'm like,
Speaker 1: you're very good at this. Thank you. Well you. It's
Speaker 1: a pleasure to talk to you. Some things I want
Speaker 1: to ask you, man, I guess a big one is
Speaker 1: you know, who are some people who uh and who
Speaker 1: taught you about the joy of music? I mean you
Speaker 1: you mentioned the Beatles obviously, Who's some other folks, either
Speaker 1: in your life or just composers that you admire? So
Speaker 1: I feel like this is always a funny question because
Speaker 1: I feel like what most musicians usually do is like
Speaker 1: reach for the most obscure stuff that you've never heard of,
Speaker 1: and you're like it was all about Lightning Hopkins. No, no,
Speaker 1: not like yeah right, um? And I think that's genuine
Speaker 1: for a lot of people. But there's a lot of
Speaker 1: people that I listened to. I don't want to be
Speaker 1: like you listened to Jack Johnson when you were sixteen.
Speaker 1: I know that, Like I I know that you did that.
Speaker 1: So my my, I'll give my like honest, not trying
Speaker 1: to be cool guy answer. I did listen to a
Speaker 1: lot of old these music, but not like super obscure.
Speaker 1: There was an oldies radio station in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where
Speaker 1: I grew up that was like a lot of seventies music.
Speaker 1: It was like imagine that station, that's what it was
Speaker 1: like Three Dog Night, Dubie Brothers, Chicago, etcetera. Uh, that stuff.
Speaker 1: And then when I learned a little bit more about music,
Speaker 1: I started really liking kind of that era and a
Speaker 1: little bit before then of singer songwriters, so like James Taylor,
Speaker 1: Billy Joel, I love the Beatles. Those would probably be
Speaker 1: like Desert Island Records for me. But I also just
Speaker 1: really liked like any kind of like fun pop music,
Speaker 1: like I think I to me, it's almost like a
Speaker 1: high coup or like Swedish design or something where it's
Speaker 1: like minimal but really good. Everything has a place and
Speaker 1: so like a lot of like anything Max Martin has
Speaker 1: ever done. I'm just like, wow, dude, just like he
Speaker 1: is like a poet pretty much, and I understand that's
Speaker 1: a specific kind of art. And I like a lot
Speaker 1: of weird stuff too, Like I I dig like deep
Speaker 1: musical stuff, but for this stuff that I write, I
Speaker 1: tend to like sort of accessible stuff. And so I
Speaker 1: would say my influences and places that I find joy
Speaker 1: music that would probably be sixties and seventies era singer songwriters.
Speaker 1: And then also like I like, you know, some pop
Speaker 1: music just kind of depends and not not everything. Um,
Speaker 1: but I did that, And I mean I like jazz
Speaker 1: stuff too, I like hip hop, Like I kind of
Speaker 1: like a lot of stuff. But I always want to
Speaker 1: make a point to answer that question honestly and be like, well,
Speaker 1: there's this guy from nineteen fourteen and he recorded on
Speaker 1: the wax turntable. There's like, not I only do that.
Speaker 1: I only listen to my music and cylinders. That's like
Speaker 1: that's where the best stuff comes from. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: but there's a craft for that. I mean, I know
Speaker 1: I'm I'm sounding like you know, angry old man here,
Speaker 1: but you know, all that brill building stuff. I mean
Speaker 1: they we we. I mean, it's what what you're saying about.
Speaker 1: How like you know you you approach it every day,
Speaker 1: whether you want to or not. Five days a week
Speaker 1: they would show up and you know, Goffin and King
Speaker 1: would bang out, will you love me tomorrow? Or you know,
Speaker 1: I mean all the people that work with Phil Spector
Speaker 1: and all the Wall of Sound guys um whose name
Speaker 1: is m embarrassingly blanking on right now. But um, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's so that that era is so interesting to me
Speaker 1: because it was, um, I guess it was just melody
Speaker 1: first and as opposed to now, where you can't have
Speaker 1: all you can build a song around cool sounds or
Speaker 1: a cool hook. Maybe yeah. And I'm so interested to
Speaker 1: see where music will go in the next like ten years,
Speaker 1: because I feel like, if you zoom way way out,
Speaker 1: we've essentially continually removed as much nuanced as we can,
Speaker 1: where it's like the classical music, where it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: a hundred instruments and all sorts of crazy chortal movements
Speaker 1: and stuff, and then like you know, whatever standards and
Speaker 1: jazz and then like sixties, seventies stuff, eighties, nineties, two
Speaker 1: thousand's and now like and I'm I do not necessarily
Speaker 1: associate less nuance with like less artistic quality, but on
Speaker 1: some level, I'm like, we kind of gotta get more
Speaker 1: nuanced again, because there's some stuff where there's like truly
Speaker 1: like we've we've distilled it to like a rhythm and
Speaker 1: a lyric, and I'm just so interested to see like
Speaker 1: where it will go from here, because like I am
Speaker 1: almost like I don't know if it could get any
Speaker 1: more condensed, and I'm fascinated to see like where it
Speaker 1: will grow. And and not say that all that's not
Speaker 1: all music, that's not whatever, But I think even if
Speaker 1: you just like charted out songs, like if you look
Speaker 1: at like the top ten songs of the year and
Speaker 1: go back every year, you're gonna see a graph that's
Speaker 1: like there's like less complication quarterly for sure. And again
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's good or bad, but it's just
Speaker 1: interesting to wonder where that will go, you know. Oh absolutely.
Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to speak to do you know
Speaker 1: the social media account dust the digital Yeah, I followed,
Speaker 1: he's amazing. I was lucky enough to speak to the
Speaker 1: guy who runs it, who's an archivist in I think
Speaker 1: out of Georgia, and he was talking about a theory
Speaker 1: that him and his friend we're kind of mulling over
Speaker 1: about how every thirty years you kind of get a
Speaker 1: new dominant genre, dominant force in music. I mean, starting
Speaker 1: with jazz in the twenties, to rock and roll in
Speaker 1: the fifties, to hip hop in the round around, and
Speaker 1: then they got to and they were trying to figure
Speaker 1: out what is it, what's the new? And they said, well,
Speaker 1: it's everything with a capital E. You know, it's just
Speaker 1: it's it's all because the streaming services and everything that
Speaker 1: you now kind of have access to everything and all
Speaker 1: so many sounds like what's that group of a hundred
Speaker 1: guests and stuff? Where it's just like everything they do
Speaker 1: it just sounds like a mash up in a way. Um.
Speaker 1: I thought that was an interesting point of view. I mean,
Speaker 1: even just I mean thinking about the joy of music.
Speaker 1: I mean, I haven't checked this, but I'm hard pressed
Speaker 1: the name another album that would have a gospel choir,
Speaker 1: Kenny G and Snoop Dogg on it. I mean, just
Speaker 1: the different I'm just blown away by how style realistically variedatings.
Speaker 1: I mean, is that when you're working. Do you hear
Speaker 1: those arrangements in your head when you're beginning to to
Speaker 1: craft out a song at the piano or whatever is
Speaker 1: you where imagine the piano or or did you just think,
Speaker 1: you know what, I've done a music in this style,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try to do this song and this style
Speaker 1: over here because I've never done that. It's It's yeah,
Speaker 1: it's usually kind of um. At this point when I'm writing,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of like arranging at the same time. And
Speaker 1: the guy that I work with usually our workflow is
Speaker 1: kind of like, um, He'll sort of let me run
Speaker 1: with the ball, like wherever I want to go. He's
Speaker 1: super fast and super talented. And if I ever get
Speaker 1: stuck and I'm like, hey, like what do you think
Speaker 1: about this? Um? But generally like if I'm as soon
Speaker 1: as i'm writing, I'm kind of like, um, Like the
Speaker 1: voice memo I have when I started writing Best Life
Speaker 1: was like me beatboxing and singing kind of with the
Speaker 1: implied chords under it. And so it's like immediately from
Speaker 1: that drum groove and from those chords, it's gonna be
Speaker 1: kind of Motown East. So like I'm coming in with
Speaker 1: a pretty like, hey, these sounds, this palette, this instrumentation. Um.
Speaker 1: And obviously sometimes anytime you bring an idea like into
Speaker 1: physical reality, there's like a little bit of loss and
Speaker 1: so you're like, oh, this didn't work. I thought it did,
Speaker 1: so you know, we'll switch it up a little bit.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I usually am kind of arranging um while
Speaker 1: I'm riding in my head um. And with all the
Speaker 1: stuff you mentioned, like the features on the record or whatever,
Speaker 1: really I was just doing like whatever sounded like the
Speaker 1: most fun, Like I was chasing inspiration. And when I
Speaker 1: was working on Sunday, immediately I was just like, I
Speaker 1: want Snoop Dogg to be on this song. I don't
Speaker 1: know if he's gonna say yes, but he would just
Speaker 1: be so perfect. And like, obviously there's like that's cool
Speaker 1: and could maybe be helpful to do the song with
Speaker 1: Snoop Dogg, but for me, it was really just like
Speaker 1: it would just be so fun if you could do
Speaker 1: that and the same. Kenny G was the first feature
Speaker 1: that we got on the record, and that was as
Speaker 1: I was writing that song the sacks Badada Dada. It
Speaker 1: was a piano line and I was like, let's like
Speaker 1: mock that in with the saxophone, and um, we had
Speaker 1: a guy actually play it, and then I was like, dude,
Speaker 1: what if we got Kenny G to play on this?
Speaker 1: And he was the nicest guy in the world, like
Speaker 1: the coolest guy ever. But with all that stuff, it
Speaker 1: was just like it was never like I'm gonna come
Speaker 1: up with something to see if I can get this
Speaker 1: person on the record. It was like, we've got a
Speaker 1: Sacks part of this song. Now, Kenny G. Would be
Speaker 1: the most awesome sax player to get. Let's try to
Speaker 1: get him. Um. That's just kind of how that stuff
Speaker 1: came together, and part of the part of the joy
Speaker 1: of making the record was usually off the block out
Speaker 1: time to record all play shows and stuff, and I'll
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, in two months, I'm gonna go record
Speaker 1: with this. Since John and I were both just home.
Speaker 1: He live in Minneapolis, John Fields. Um, when I would
Speaker 1: start writing a song and felt like I was onto something,
Speaker 1: I'd text him and I'd be like, hey, man, like
Speaker 1: can you work right now? He'd be like yeah. So
Speaker 1: like in thirty minutes, we're on Zoom sharing the pro
Speaker 1: tool screen recording the song like that fast, so that
Speaker 1: it was like start to finish like you know, there
Speaker 1: were a couple of songs that from like concept to
Speaker 1: like fully done was like thirty six hours or something
Speaker 1: like we could just like chase right after it. And
Speaker 1: not all of them were like that, but instead of
Speaker 1: having to like keep all of that in your head
Speaker 1: and then go try to do it all at once,
Speaker 1: it was basically just riding the same wave of writing
Speaker 1: in production, which was super fun for me because I
Speaker 1: got to like be in each place and finish it,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, just keep that spontaneity to
Speaker 1: it too. I imagine. Wow. I mean I speaking of
Speaker 1: of features, I got a fan boy for a moment
Speaker 1: over Steve Winwood, who was on your track over the
Speaker 1: Summer Range ro over that overloaded Hammond Saud he had
Speaker 1: on all those Spencer Davis records. That is just the best.
Speaker 1: I've been trying to chase that for years. So that
Speaker 1: was My dad listened to Steve Winwood when I was
Speaker 1: growing up, and when I was like probably ten, I
Speaker 1: was kind of like, oh, this is like dad music whatever.
Speaker 1: And when I got a little older, I was like, no,
Speaker 1: this is actually Steve Winwood is like one of the
Speaker 1: best musicians ever. But I didn't know until I was
Speaker 1: in college that he was on give Me Some Love
Speaker 1: in the Spencer Davis group. And when I learned that
Speaker 1: that he did that as a teenager, that's what catapulted
Speaker 1: him in my mind from being like you're like super
Speaker 1: awesome to being like you're like one of the most
Speaker 1: awesome ever. And the exact same thing happened with that
Speaker 1: where I was just like, you know, in the in
Speaker 1: that writing demo, I knew we needed a little bit
Speaker 1: more of a lift, couldn't figure out what it was,
Speaker 1: and I was like, man, really would be great to
Speaker 1: get some B three um, And I was like kind
Speaker 1: of starting the theme of like doing things that I
Speaker 1: think would be fun just because they're fun. I was like,
Speaker 1: what if we got Steve Winwood to play B three?
Speaker 1: And so he did it. It was incredible. He sent
Speaker 1: me like a video of himself being like thanks for
Speaker 1: putting me on that record. Then I was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, but it was it was just like such
Speaker 1: a one moment for me. And like I I've seen
Speaker 1: him in concert and he's actually mentioned in the song,
Speaker 1: which is kind of why we thought it'd be cool
Speaker 1: to have him. But he's mentioned in the song because
Speaker 1: I wore a tour T shirt that I bought when
Speaker 1: I saw him in concert at the Rheman and we
Speaker 1: were looking for lyrics and one of the guys saw
Speaker 1: my shirt he was like Steve Winwood and I was
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, totally. But that was born the whole
Speaker 1: that line of the song was born out of me,
Speaker 1: just like being a fan, which is super fun. Oh man,
Speaker 1: he's the best. What a what a moment for you?
Speaker 1: I mean, you know it's it's we're talking about earlier.
Speaker 1: I mean, having those people when we're growing up that
Speaker 1: really inspire us and then being able to like work
Speaker 1: alongside them as peers is it's the best. You know,
Speaker 1: nothing more needs the best. That is totally, man. And
Speaker 1: and it really was like that was just like such
Speaker 1: a gift and it was so fun and honestly, man,
Speaker 1: I haven't put this together. That might have been the
Speaker 1: start of realizing for me being like, dude, I should
Speaker 1: just do some more stuff that is fun because it's fun.
Speaker 1: Because I think for while, like took music so seriously
Speaker 1: that it felt like fun, Like I didn't have didn't
Speaker 1: a room for fun anymore. It's like all this other
Speaker 1: stuff is more important. And I've realized then it was like,
Speaker 1: oh no, there's value just to doing something because it
Speaker 1: is fun and enjoyable. And I honestly that probably was
Speaker 1: the start of like the theme of the record. I
Speaker 1: have not thought about that before, but yeah, that was
Speaker 1: literally because I mean, like I love Steve Winwood and
Speaker 1: it's cool, but it's not like the song is going
Speaker 1: to get a billion streams because Steve Winwood played Hammond
Speaker 1: on it. It's just more like that's like fun for
Speaker 1: me and like a person like you who loves Steve Winwood, um,
Speaker 1: and just like feeling that sort of joy in that
Speaker 1: moment being like, oh that's worth pursuing. That's yeah. I
Speaker 1: think that's probably where some of that started. That's cool.
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, they album opens with with dream on
Speaker 1: and you know, or just people to stay in touch
Speaker 1: with that person that was filled with passion years ago
Speaker 1: that led them down whatever path they decided to pursue.
Speaker 1: If it's music, if it's golf, if it's accounting, if
Speaker 1: it's carpentrate, what's whatever it is? Yeah? How how what
Speaker 1: is it that keeps you dream it? I think, Um,
Speaker 1: I think I'm probably my best headspace and like most
Speaker 1: apt to like look forward to her dream about something
Speaker 1: when I'm like grateful, when I have maybe a spirit
Speaker 1: of gratitude because I feel like, especially for my job.
Speaker 1: I think sometimes you know, quote unquote, dreams can start
Speaker 1: to get mixed in with like aspirations, which is nothing
Speaker 1: wrong with that, but like that can kind of muddy
Speaker 1: the waters where it's like, um, at this point, enough
Speaker 1: stuff has happened that I thought would never happen that
Speaker 1: I kind of realized that like, oh, that's never gonna
Speaker 1: like You're never gonna be able to do enough. It'll
Speaker 1: be like I'm satisfied I did it. And I think
Speaker 1: when you start looking too much like I feel this
Speaker 1: now with three of the songs being out, and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I have to remember like just exists in a place
Speaker 1: of gratitude, because it can be easy to be like, oh,
Speaker 1: like are the ore the playlist is the play isn't
Speaker 1: good enough because this happening enough whatever, I really want
Speaker 1: to make sure it does good. And I think there's
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with that, but it can really quickly spiral
Speaker 1: into a place where you're like your dreams or maybe
Speaker 1: not so much like things that are inspiring you or
Speaker 1: like propelling you forward and are more like it's like
Speaker 1: achievement based. So I think probably for me, I am
Speaker 1: like best at dreaming or like pursuing something when I'm
Speaker 1: like at peace and thankful for where I am, um
Speaker 1: because and again there's nothing wrong with goals or anything
Speaker 1: or like those types of dreams. I just have never
Speaker 1: found that that's been like a super long term satisfying
Speaker 1: place for me to be. And maybe for some other
Speaker 1: people it is, it just hasn't been for me. You
Speaker 1: watch enough behind the music in each two Hollywood stories.
Speaker 1: You hear enough over and over again these people that
Speaker 1: you know, I I got the Oscar, I got the Grammy,
Speaker 1: I did what I said out to do, and that
Speaker 1: that wasn't it. That's not where it with a capital I,
Speaker 1: I guess comes from. There's something else. And I guess
Speaker 1: gratitude is probably you know, a good word as any
Speaker 1: if you could sum it up with one word, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think, honestly, man like, I think people sort
Speaker 1: of understand that, but I don't, you know, I understand that,
Speaker 1: and sometimes I still don't totally believe it. But to me,
Speaker 1: it's not any more complicated than like if that were true,
Speaker 1: then people who have achieved great things would be happy
Speaker 1: like it just like yeah, like just generally the goal
Speaker 1: all the gold metal metal winners just happiest claims the
Speaker 1: rest of their life. And it's just like that's just
Speaker 1: like fundamentally not the case. And I think, to me,
Speaker 1: it's like that it's fine to like use that information
Speaker 1: like it seems seems true because every single person who's
Speaker 1: achieved stuff says it, and their life is reflective of that.
Speaker 1: So it's like probably okay to make that assumption, you know, absolutely,
Speaker 1: I think we can all learn something from that. I
Speaker 1: think that's a beautiful note to end on. But I
Speaker 1: am I am grateful for you. I'm grateful for your
Speaker 1: time today. You're incredibly thoughtful answers, and of course your music.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for just all the warmth and
Speaker 1: positivity coming from you today. It's been such a joy
Speaker 1: talking about Thanks so much, man, Thanks for the great questions.
Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed this episode of Inside the Studio,
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. For more episodes of
Speaker 1: Inside the Studio or other fantastic shows, check out the
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or whatever you listen
Speaker 1: to your favorite podcast