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Speaker 1: I would have gotten off easier had I killed five people.

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Speaker 1: When I was presented with this deal, they say, if

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Speaker 1: you plead guilty, you'll be going to parole boar in

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Speaker 1: your early fifties. Well, I'm fifty three years old right

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Speaker 1: now and still going to parole board. I'll fix an

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Speaker 1: execution in less than six months. I would never spend

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Speaker 1: the least thirty years aside the check of five at

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Speaker 1: the beds, I went twenty years without touching my family.

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Speaker 1: I've been on I don't know how many hunger strikes.

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Speaker 1: I would never have to go through any of that

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Speaker 1: had I played guilty through these crimes I didn't commit,

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Speaker 1: or had I actually killed five people. But if I

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Speaker 1: play guilty the murder even one a time, with the

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Speaker 1: time on work, that's a hell of a deal for

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Speaker 1: a mass murderer. But if you're still on your innocence,

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Speaker 1: they said, oh you want to try, okay, if we're

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Speaker 1: going to give you your trial.

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Speaker 2: In part one of our coverage of Keith Lamark, we

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Speaker 2: heard how he was offered a sentence that would run

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Speaker 2: concurrent with the time he already had if he just

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Speaker 2: agreed to plead guilty. Five of the ten murders that

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Speaker 2: occurred during the Lucasville prison riot in nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 2: For refusing this deal, he faced a capital murder trial.

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Speaker 2: Now we'll hear how law enforcement went through many rounds

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Speaker 2: of interviews to find cooperating witnesses from the easily incentivized

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Speaker 2: prison population to support their narrative that Keith had led

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Speaker 2: or ordered other inmates to murder five men. We're going

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Speaker 2: to examine how each witness drastically changed their stories from

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Speaker 2: initial interviews to trial, what they stood to gain, as

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Speaker 2: well as how the courts allowed prosecutors to withhold a

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Speaker 2: vast trough of exculpatory evidence to ensure Keith Lamar's wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction and to Part two of

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Speaker 2: Keith Lamar's story. If you haven't listened to part one,

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Speaker 2: there's no time like the present. We now returned to

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Speaker 2: our interviews with Keith and his attorney, Keith and Stephan,

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Speaker 2: who is heading up Keith's latest and potentially his last,

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Speaker 2: appellate effort. We previously left off talking about how four

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Speaker 2: other men from two of the three factions involved in

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Speaker 2: the Lucasville prison riot, the Aryan Brotherhood and Sunny Muslims

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Speaker 2: are currently on death row along with Keith and how

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Speaker 2: it appears that the third faction, the Black Gangster Disciples,

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Speaker 2: made a deal with prosecutors Mark Pete Meyer and Seth

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Speaker 2: Tiger for cooperation in all five trials in exchange for

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Speaker 2: either leniency or all out immunity from their own actions.

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Speaker 1: It's an open secret. I mean, it was an article

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Speaker 1: that was written on the thirty of anniversary recently in

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Speaker 1: Cincinnati Inquirer. And the prosecutors Mark Mark his own record

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Speaker 1: and he said, you know, did I make the deal

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Speaker 1: with the devil? Possibly? It is possible that the guy

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Speaker 1: who maybe have blood on his hands is on the

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Speaker 1: street right now. But that was the cars that we

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Speaker 1: were dealt. You know, that's how it's just the system works.

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Speaker 1: It's first come, first servant. You know. The guy who

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Speaker 1: Mark Pete Mark was referred to in the article as

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Speaker 1: Anthony LaVale. He was the leader of the Black Disciples.

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Speaker 1: Basically everything I've read, everything I've heard, you know, because

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Speaker 1: it's been thirty years, he was the one who was

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Speaker 1: really responsible for most of the killings, including the Guard's death.

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Speaker 2: And so it appears that the leadership of the Black

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Speaker 2: Gangster Disciples, Anthony Lavelle, Stacy Gordon, as well as others

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Speaker 2: who were actually involved in the deaths on the block,

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Speaker 2: managed to avoid accountability by supporting the narrative that laid

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Speaker 2: blame for all ten deaths on the other four men

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Speaker 2: and of course Keith. So let's talk about the investigation

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Speaker 2: led by Hamilton County prosecutors Mark Pete Meyer and Seth Tieger.

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Speaker 2: We remember their names from other wrongful convictions, including Elwood Jones,

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Speaker 2: who they were totally willing to send a death row

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Speaker 2: even though they had scientific evidence of his innocence. So

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Speaker 2: you could draw your own conclusions from that as well

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Speaker 2: as what you're about to hear now. It struck me

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Speaker 2: as odd that they were in this case because Hamilton

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Speaker 2: County is nowhere near Lucasville Prison.

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Speaker 1: Mark Pikemeyer, out of all the prosecutes in the state

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Speaker 1: of Ohio, he was hand picked because of the record

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Speaker 1: we now know he has. Because he can put you

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Speaker 1: on death row with no appetence, he could manufacture the evidence,

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Speaker 1: he could withhold the evidence. This is what his office

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Speaker 1: was known for doing. So it wasn't randomly picked. He

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Speaker 1: was specifically picked because he had those deals.

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Speaker 3: It's pretty remarkable how many interviews they conducted and how

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Speaker 3: uniform it is that almost all of the testifying witnesses

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Speaker 3: followed the same arc. Initially they were not naming Keith

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Speaker 3: Lamar or even affirmatively saying that Keith was not involved,

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Speaker 3: and then over time as they gave more statements, started

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Speaker 3: saying that Keith was involved and Keith was the leader

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Speaker 3: of the Dusk squad. You know, that is suspicious to

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Speaker 3: say the least. And then almost all the witnesses to

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Speaker 3: some degree also received deals and have incredible credibility issues.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about those witnesses.

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Speaker 3: The testifying witnesses against Keith were Robert Bass, Anthony Walker,

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Speaker 3: Thomas Taylor, Stacy Gordon, Lewis Jones, Ricky Rutherford, and Michael Childers.

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Speaker 3: Many of the witnesses were transferred to Oakwood, which was

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Speaker 3: a much more favorable facility for incarcerated people. Even the

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Speaker 3: witnesses themselves testified that the guards were catering to their needs,

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Speaker 3: giving them unlimited supplies of cigarettes, unlimited supplies of the canteen,

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Speaker 3: extra visitation jobs, and free range of movements.

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Speaker 2: And being in this better situation together, the witnesses were

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Speaker 2: also able to well get their stories straight right to coordinate.

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Speaker 2: But more importantly, almost all of those testifying witnesses had

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Speaker 2: everything to gain. I mean, some of them had flat

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Speaker 2: out admitted to killing one or more of the victims,

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Speaker 2: and then they just shifted blame aunt to Keith, saying

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Speaker 2: that he made them do it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty shocking sort of Even on the state's

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Speaker 3: own theory, there is stronger evidence that other people were

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Speaker 3: more directly involved in the murders of each one of

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Speaker 3: the people for whom Keith was ultimately convicted of killing.

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Speaker 2: So Keith was charged with four murders from L Block,

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Speaker 2: Daryl de Pina, Bruce Vittali, William Svetti, and Albert Staiano.

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Speaker 2: But let's start with the one from K Block, Dennis Weaver.

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Speaker 2: Keith told the story of how he was piled into

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Speaker 2: this cell on K Block with nine other guys when

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Speaker 2: a Sunni Muslim named William Bowling aka Shabaz killed a

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Speaker 2: man named Dennis Weaver, along with two others Ricky Rutherford

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Speaker 2: and Michael Childers, who ended up testifying that Keith had

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Speaker 2: told them to do it.

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Speaker 1: We've been able to find Apple Davis from one of

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Speaker 1: the Muslims who was in the pot with William Bowley

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Speaker 1: after Dennis was killed, and he encouraged William Bowley to

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Speaker 1: say listen, just to say he made you do it.

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Speaker 1: They all already saying about the Aos murders.

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Speaker 2: And I have that two thousand and five AFFI davit

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Speaker 2: right here from Abdul Mohammed Sadik, who said that he

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Speaker 2: had been previously threatened by Dennis Weaver. And he continued

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Speaker 2: in the affidavit talking about the time he spent in

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Speaker 2: the same cell with William Bowling in the aftermath of

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Speaker 2: the riot. Now Michael Childers was in a nearby cell

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Speaker 2: as well. Sadik said that Shabbaz admitted to killing Weaver

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Speaker 2: out of loyalty to him, a fellow Muslim whose life

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Speaker 2: had been threatened by Weaver, a non Muslim. Sadik told Bowling,

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Speaker 2: and this is a direct quote, that he should join

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Speaker 2: with Childers and blame Lamar for the order, since Lamar

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Speaker 2: was a non Muslim and he was being seen as

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Speaker 2: a ring leader for other inmate murders.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, end quote.

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Speaker 1: And William Bowler when it came time to testified this mildrau,

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Speaker 1: he refused to come right.

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Speaker 2: But Michael Childers and Ricky Rutherford did testify. Kegan, what

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Speaker 2: can you tell us about these two?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So Ricky testified, I think Keith was the leader

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Speaker 3: of the desk squad, that Keith told him to tie

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Speaker 3: up Weaver and that he did it, and then Keith

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Speaker 3: told Childers to kill Weaver, which Childers did. Rutherford it

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Speaker 3: was transferred to Oakwood where they were given preferential treatment,

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Speaker 3: and was charged with an aggravated murder, but the charge

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Speaker 3: was reduced to involuntary manslaughter and he received five to

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Speaker 3: twenty five years, but it was sort of intentionally meant

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Speaker 3: not to increase the time that he would serve. The

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Speaker 3: state also promised to let his cooperation be known to

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Speaker 3: the parole board, provide him with counsel for his appearance

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Speaker 3: for the parole board, and make all of the transcripts

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Speaker 3: available to him.

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Speaker 2: So Rutherford admitted participating in Dennis Weaver's murder, completely remove

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Speaker 2: William Bowling from the equation, and then for the small

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Speaker 2: price of saying Keith made us do it, he received

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Speaker 2: a better prison assignment and effectively no additional sentence for

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Speaker 2: the murder.

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Speaker 3: In addition, Rutherford is one of a couple testifying witnesses

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Speaker 3: who suffered severe mental illness auditory, visual, and command hallucinations,

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Speaker 3: but those records were never turned over to the defense.

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Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. Okay, so what about Childers.

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Speaker 3: Michael Childers first said that other incarcerated people tied Weaver up,

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Speaker 3: and he said that he was told to kill Weaver,

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Speaker 3: but when he went to do so, Weaver was already dead.

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Speaker 3: Then ultimately he admitted to killing Weaver, but said that

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Speaker 3: Keith told him to do so. Again, he was charged

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Speaker 3: with murder but pled to involuntary manslaughter. Childers is another

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Speaker 3: witness who was severely mentally ill. Medical records showed that

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Speaker 3: he suffered hallucinations, and those medical records were not turned

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Speaker 3: over the defence, so the defense could not argue to

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Speaker 3: the jury that this person was not a credible witness.

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Speaker 2: And again, the mental illness was the least of the

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Speaker 2: credibility issues. Childers got a huge break and sentencing instead

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Speaker 2: of murder, which is a capital evense involuntary manslaughter, which

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Speaker 2: is what he was charged with in Ohio, means three

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Speaker 2: to eleven years. You can see that's a deal. Well,

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Speaker 2: he certainly didn't want to refuse all for the low

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Speaker 2: low price of blaming Keith for his own act, alleging

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Speaker 2: that he gave the order like some sort of prison

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Speaker 2: gang leader like Anthony the Bell or Stacy Gordon of

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Speaker 2: the Black Gangster Disciples for example. Now, Stacy Gordon actually

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Speaker 2: testified against Keith.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so Stacy Gordon was one of the shot callers

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Speaker 3: for the Black Gangster Disciples, is my understanding. He plainly

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Speaker 3: admitted to helping to plan the uprising and to killing

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Speaker 3: another incarcerated person, and yet was never charged for that.

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Speaker 3: He was charged with assault on a corrections officer, but

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Speaker 3: pled out and received three to five years to run

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Speaker 3: concurrent with the sentence he was already serving. So he

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Speaker 3: effectively sarned no time for this assault during an uprising

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Speaker 3: that he admitted to planning.

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Speaker 2: So he got no time for either the assault or

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Speaker 2: the murder. Wow, all right, So what testimony did he

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Speaker 2: give in exchange for this phenomenal sweetheart deal that.

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Speaker 3: He got at trial? You know, Stacy Gordon is probably

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Speaker 3: one of the more damning witnesses, and he described Keith

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Speaker 3: as the leader of the death squad. Again, that's sort

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Speaker 3: of suspicious because other people identify Stacy Gordon as the

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Speaker 3: person doing a lot of the things that Keith Lamar

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Speaker 3: was ultimately pegged for doing, which was opening the cells

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Speaker 3: that the alleged snitches were caged in, which was in

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Speaker 3: everybody's narrative, including the state's narrative, the step taken to

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Speaker 3: lead to their executions. And it is in just direct

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Speaker 3: contradiction to sworn testimony that he gave at his own

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Speaker 3: guilty plea for the assault on the corrections officer where

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Speaker 3: he was asked if he saw Keith in L six

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Speaker 3: and said no.

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Speaker 2: So it sounds like he subbed Keith in for himself

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Speaker 2: in the state's narrative at Keith's trial, and then the

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Speaker 2: rest of the witnesses appear to serve that goal. A

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Speaker 2: guy named Robert Bass testified in addition to three more

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Speaker 2: men who all appeared to have been part of the

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Speaker 2: death squad, Lewis Jones, Anthony Walker, and Thomas Taylor. So

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Speaker 2: let's start with Robert Bass.

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Speaker 3: For Robert Bass, in particular, he did not bring up

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Speaker 3: Keith's name on his own. The transcript shows that one

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Speaker 3: of the interviewing troopers brought up Keith's name, and then

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Speaker 3: Robert Bass started saying it back to the interviewer. And

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Speaker 3: this is like a classic example of a fed fact

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Speaker 3: that you know, Bass didn't actually testify to seeing anyone

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Speaker 3: assaulted or killed, but he said that Keith was in

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Speaker 3: L six, that Keith had a T shirt over his head,

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Speaker 3: but was sure it was him. He also himself admitted

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Speaker 3: to removing dead bodies from L six, but was never

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Speaker 3: charged with any crime.

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Speaker 1: Pobby bad So he was somebody who I was on

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Speaker 1: speaking terms with, you know, doing a rise. He failed

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Speaker 1: down the steps. He was drunk or something knocked all

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Speaker 1: his teeth out. When he came to testify on he

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Speaker 1: had all brand new Foster teeth. I mean he looked

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Speaker 1: at twenty years younger. You know, he looked at me.

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Speaker 1: He one of the guys had looked at the table one.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry he got he got released.

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Speaker 2: He got an early release, man, So he got his

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Speaker 2: teeth fixed as well as an early release in exchange

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Speaker 2: for some super vague testimony saying that your head was

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Speaker 2: covered but somehow he knew it was you. Maybe he

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Speaker 2: was trying to make himself impeachable, sounds that way, But okay,

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Speaker 2: four down, three to go. Let's move on to Lewis

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Speaker 2: Jones Anthony Walker and Thomas Taylor, and we're going to

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Speaker 2: do this by going victim to victim in L Block,

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Speaker 2: Bruce Vitali, William Spatty, Albert Steano, and Darryl Depina.

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Speaker 3: For Daryl Depina. You know, there were other incarcerated people

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Speaker 3: who made statements saying that Lewis Jones was the person

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Speaker 3: who killed Darryl Doupina. Lewis jones statements changed dramatically over time.

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Speaker 3: He admitted to being a part of the Desk Squad

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Speaker 3: and listed everyone else involved, which is a sort of

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Speaker 3: rare statement for someone to give off the bat for

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Speaker 3: an incarcerated person, but he didn't name Keith. He said

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Speaker 3: that the group was led by a black Muslim, Lamar

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Speaker 3: was not a black Muslim, and then ultimately you know,

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Speaker 3: testified that Lamar was the leader of the Desk Squad.

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Speaker 3: Other incarcerated people identified Jones as being involved in not

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Speaker 3: just the murder of Daryl Dipina, but Bruce Fatale. And

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Speaker 3: despite that, despite him admitting that he was a member

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Speaker 3: of the death Squad and knew everyone else involved and

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Speaker 3: being implicated in two murders, he was never charged in

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Speaker 3: connection with the uprising in any way.

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Speaker 2: Wow, he named everybody in the death squad in his

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Speaker 2: first interview and excluded Keith information that was hidden by

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Speaker 2: the state, and then for his testimony he was transferred

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Speaker 2: to Oakwood and was not charged for two murders, Daryl

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Speaker 2: Topina and Bruce Fatally. And I understand that another individual,

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Speaker 2: Aaron Jefferson, was named along with Lewis Jones for Darryldpina,

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Speaker 2: and then there were additional people named in connection with

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Speaker 2: Bruce Fatali's death.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so with Bruce Fatale there is not strong and

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Speaker 3: credible evidence against Keith. However, there are other statements in

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Speaker 3: the record that two other incarcerated people who are the

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Speaker 3: actual people who killed Bruce, who were not charged with

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Speaker 3: this crime.

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Speaker 2: Now let's move on to the murder of William Speeddy.

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Speaker 3: A person named Eric Curdie later admitted and pled killed

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Speaker 3: to this had to give a calloquy about the details

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Speaker 3: of the murder that had to be accepted by the court,

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Speaker 3: and he specifically said that Keith was not involved. That

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Speaker 3: would seem to be pretty important exculpatory evidence that should

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Speaker 3: be a basis for Eversinis conviction, but the courts didn't

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Speaker 3: see it that way.

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Speaker 2: And in addition to Gertie. There were court filings naming

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Speaker 2: three other individuals in Stetti's murder, Fred Frakes, Roger Snodgrass,

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Speaker 2: and Brian Escridge, yet none of those alternative suspects were

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Speaker 2: known to the jury or the defense. So moving on

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Speaker 2: to Albert Steano for this one, the last two witnesses,

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Speaker 2: Anthony Walker and Thomas Taylor kind of tag teamed this one. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Walker initially told investigators that a number of people who

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Speaker 3: participated in the beatings and murders in l Block, but

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Speaker 3: said that Keith was not present. Ultimately, however, he said

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Speaker 3: that Keith was involved, and so he just switched in

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Speaker 3: Keith for other people in his narrative and ultimately testified

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Speaker 3: that Keith was the leader of the desk squad. Keith

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Speaker 3: handed someone about and told him too, when he had

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Speaker 3: earlier said that was someone else entirely.

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Speaker 2: So this is another time Keith was specifically excluded, but

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Speaker 2: the state withheld it from the defense. And then Walker

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Speaker 2: joined the crowd, swapping in Keith for the actual assailants

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Speaker 2: in exchange for no charges for his own actions. Then

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Speaker 2: Thomas Taylor testified to receiving and using the bat that

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Speaker 2: Walker mentioned.

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Speaker 3: So Thomas Taylor admitted to murdering Siano. He said that

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Speaker 3: he alone hit the victim over the head with the

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Speaker 3: bat repeatedly until the bat cracked, but he said that

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Speaker 3: Keith told him to and yet Taylor was able to

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Speaker 3: plead to in Terry manslaughter, while Keith received a capital

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Speaker 3: murder charge and conviction.

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Speaker 1: Pay were made about eight statements. In his first three

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Speaker 1: statements he was now committed. The four statement he said

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Speaker 1: he saw Keith Lamar is Stacy Gordon, he stay Gordons

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Speaker 1: and leading the death squad and being his still statement.

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Speaker 1: Stacy Gordon completely disappears from never till because State Gordon

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Speaker 1: too had now become a staate's witness.

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Speaker 2: This podcast is brought to you by Ohio Justice and

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Speaker 2: Policy Center, a nonprofit law firm that seeks justice for

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Speaker 2: people torectly impact it by Ohio's criminal legal system. OJPC

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Speaker 2: provides free legal services to currently and formally incarcerated people.

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Speaker 2: Through its Beyond Guilt Project, OJPC works to free over

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Speaker 2: punish people who have rehabilitated themselves. Ojpc's Second Chance Clinics

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Speaker 2: help individuals with criminal records remove barriers to employment and housing.

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Speaker 2: Ojpc's Human Rights and Prison project represents people who face.

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Speaker 4: Denial of medical care.

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Speaker 2: In its twenty five year history, OJPC has worked at

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Speaker 2: the policy level and won numerous victories in Ohio, including

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Speaker 2: ending juvenile life without parole and exempting seriously mentally.

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Speaker 4: Ill people from the death penalty.

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Speaker 2: To learn more about Ohio Justice and Policy Center and

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Speaker 2: how you can support its mission, visit OHIOJPC dot org.

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Speaker 2: That's Ohio JPC dot org, Ohio Justice and Policy Center.

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Speaker 4: We don't write people off.

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Speaker 1: They took the group of prisoners and they put them

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Speaker 1: in a private prisoner here in Ohio, and there they

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Speaker 1: went over with script mark pem eight Thanksgiving dinner with

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Speaker 1: these prisoners. They had movies, they had the free runner,

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Speaker 1: the commissary, and he's saying witnesses would carried from trial

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Speaker 1: to trial, saying the same story over and over again.

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Speaker 1: And we're talking about a riot. We're talking about people

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Speaker 1: being murdered with shovels and bats and knives. But it's

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Speaker 1: also this very clean group of witnesses who were standing

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Speaker 1: back watching the whole thing, going for murder to murder

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Speaker 1: according to the state. But it wasn't a neat thing.

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Speaker 1: It couldn't have been anything. It was a riot. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: you know, the boots, my clothes when I came up

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Speaker 1: the yard, all those things were burned.

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Speaker 2: You can kind of see the reasoning for viewing evidence

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Speaker 2: that had been on L Block for eleven day seed

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Speaker 2: just not probative, but not so with the inmates on

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Speaker 2: the yard or in K Block. And in the state's narrative,

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Speaker 2: Keith was either ordering or leading the charge on several

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Speaker 2: of these murders on L Block before returning to the yard.

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Speaker 2: He didn't have a change of clothes. If he had

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Speaker 2: anything to do with his desk squad, his boots and

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Speaker 2: clothing clearly would have been covered and at least some

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Speaker 2: of the victims DNA.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you would imagine you would think if I'm responsible

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Speaker 1: for the deafer five people, you would think I would

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Speaker 1: have some blood, some kind of you know, scratches on

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Speaker 1: my body something.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The fact that they didn't save the clothing is more

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Speaker 3: and more shocking. The state took that piece of evidence,

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Speaker 3: probably the most crucial piece of evidence in this case

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Speaker 3: and burned it.

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Speaker 1: You know, there layers that stuff paper down, didn't this

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Speaker 1: sweaver's throat and never presented the piece of paper with

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Speaker 1: my DNA on it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the paper that you allegedly stuffed down Dennis Weaver's

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Speaker 2: throat to suffocate him. I mean that piece of alleged

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Speaker 2: evidence and somehow magically disappeared as well, out of twenty two.

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Speaker 1: Thousand pieces of evidence that was collected.

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Speaker 2: And those weren't the only dirty tricks, right.

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Speaker 1: They took my case to Clarens and Ohio ninety six

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Speaker 1: percent white. They had paneled all white jewelry. But that

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Speaker 1: was only the beginning. They want to do this very

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Speaker 1: one way discovery.

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Speaker 2: You know, when I first read about this pre trial

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Speaker 2: discovery process, I was dumbfounded as to how this was

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Speaker 2: allowed to happen. The prosecution had amassed hundreds of interviews,

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Speaker 2: but when Keith's attorneys made the request for any exculpatory evidence,

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Speaker 2: you know, saying that Keith wasn't involved, first they objected.

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Speaker 3: The prosecutors objected saying, you know, it's going to be

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Speaker 3: hard to satisfy their constitutional requirement to find all of

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Speaker 3: the exculpatory material in their mountains of evidence. That's obviously

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Speaker 3: not an excuse. But the judge accepted that justification and

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Speaker 3: said turnover what you can. And what followed was the

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Speaker 3: prosecutor saying, you know, we don't want to turn over

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Speaker 3: all of the statements with the names attached, because we

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Speaker 3: think that that could put some of the incarcerated people's

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Speaker 3: safety in jeopardy. And so they got together the statements

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Speaker 3: that they deemed exculpatory, and the judge read them into

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Speaker 3: the record, and without the names.

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Speaker 2: Attached, there's a bit to unpack about what you just said.

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Speaker 2: They handed over what they deemed exculpatory and with what

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Speaker 2: we've already examined here left out some absolute fucking whoppers.

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Speaker 2: And then I understand the defense was given a list

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Speaker 2: of forty three names that were not matched up with

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Speaker 2: the statement summaries that the prosecution actually did provide for

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Speaker 2: the judge to read into the record. And then most

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Speaker 2: if not all, of those forty three men wouldn't cooperate

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Speaker 2: with Keith defense.

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Speaker 3: If the witness statements is are not attached to names,

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Speaker 3: so you can't cross examine the testifying witnesses and can't

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Speaker 3: go interview and call witnesses of your own that have

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Speaker 3: testimony that is helpful for you, then those disclosures are

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Speaker 3: not satisfying the purpose of Brady's are not allowing you

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Speaker 3: to present a defense.

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Speaker 2: And what Pete Meyer later admitted at a federal habeas

406
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Speaker 2: hearing in two thousand and seven was that they used

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Speaker 2: an impossibly narrow standard to deem a statement exculpatory. Essentially,

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Speaker 2: he said that since these were group murders, if Keith

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Speaker 2: was not specifically excluded, then it does not exclude Keith.

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Speaker 2: But we know from examining the interview transcripts that they

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Speaker 2: didn't even satisfy their own standard. Lewis Jones and Anthony

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Speaker 2: Walker both specifically excluded Keith. Stacy Gordon's testimony and his

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Speaker 2: assault charge proceeding also excluded Keith, but this was all

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Speaker 2: still hidden from the defense despite meeting this very narrow

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Speaker 2: Brady's standard.

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Speaker 3: Again, the purpose of Brady, the reason you get exculpatory

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Speaker 3: material is so that you can present a defense. Anybody

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Speaker 3: looking at that today, any lawyer, any judge, would say

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Speaker 3: that doesn't satisfy Brady.

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Speaker 2: So with these built in constitutional violations, Keith went to

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Speaker 2: trial with the judge having read these statement summaries unattached

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Speaker 2: to names into the record, the ones that pete Meyer

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Speaker 2: and Tiger deemed exculpatory, and the statement summaries varied from

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Speaker 2: useless to speculative to actually exculpatory. For example, referring to

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Speaker 2: an alleged witness of Dennis Weaver's death in cell K

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Speaker 2: two thirty six, quote, he was in a cell adjoining

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Speaker 2: K two thirty six, but gave no useful information end quote.

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Speaker 2: Another example quote, he was in an adjoining cell to

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Speaker 2: K two thirty six and heard a commotion and thought

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Speaker 2: Weaver hung himself end quote. And then the actually useful

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Speaker 2: exculpatory material quote, he observed Eskridge kill Seedti in l

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Speaker 2: Carder end quote. Now, if you remember, there were four

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Speaker 2: men associated with Sveetti's death, Eskridge, Frakes, Snodgrass, and Gerdy,

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Speaker 2: the last of which ultimately confess that excluded Keith. So

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Speaker 2: this is the total extent of the material that was

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Speaker 2: shared with the defense, along with a list of forty

437
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 2: three names of possible sources for those statements. The defense, meanwhile,

438
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 2: was expected to go to trial blindfolded with both hands

439
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 2: tied behind their backs, but even still they did present

440
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 2: an alibi.

441
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, Keith testified and had a number

442
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 3: of defense witnesses Kurt Ayers, Ronnie Eugene Foreman, or Foot's

443
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:32,400
Speaker 3: Corey Perkins, William Washington, also known as Gino, and Christopher

444
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 3: Eugene Williams. Basically all of the defense witnesses corroborated Keith's story.

445
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,199
Speaker 3: Like in so many wrongful convictions and exonerations, you know,

446
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 3: the defendant had a bunch of alibi witnesses. They all

447
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 3: seemed credible. They all confirmed his story. They said that

448
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 3: he was in the yard during the time when the

449
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 3: murders occurred.

450
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, once again, without knowing everything we laid out earlier

451
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 2: about the witnesses, or even with the for cocta discovery

452
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 2: that did get the jury was primed to buy the

453
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 2: state's narrative, and with the exception of Robert Bass, all

454
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 2: of them testified, transferring the blame for their own crimes

455
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 2: right to Keith. And since all of the physical evidence

456
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 2: had been destroyed, there was no way to either confirm

457
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 2: more than I had.

458
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 1: Because they did. At one point, wrote a whole bunch

459
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: of wheelbarrows and shovels and fire extinguishers wrapped in plastic,

460
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 1: given a jury the impression that these are the murder weapons,

461
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: hammers and shanks and all this shit wrapped in plastic,

462
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 1: as if they had did a meticulous investigation. She didn't

463
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: have anything to do with anything, you know, but no

464
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: one was there to see that throughout the whole trial

465
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: was last a month. There was no one in the gallery,

466
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 1: you know, it was empty and Sorryfarmacuilge. I went back

467
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 1: to Luca's feel for money. I came back to centencing

468
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,880
Speaker 1: and I had, you know, writtenly memorized this little speech

469
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: that I wanted to say, and I came out to

470
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 1: the court room and it was about three hundred white

471
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: people spending it and Suice man in easter Cross, I mean,

472
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: and it was standing room on me and I haven't

473
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 1: seen iconic pictures in the eighteen hundred and seventeen hundreds

474
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: of black people being lensed and you had this big gathering,

475
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 1: you big swarm of white people standing around with ties on.

476
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: It was the same thing. And when I seen them

477
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: pictures a couple of years later, I knew i'd seen

478
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: that before. I said, you know, I wouldn't stand I

479
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: was a part of that. I know what that is.

480
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:49,959
Speaker 1: That's unless why the most important thing I've learned is

481
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 1: that who I am it's more important than what I am.

482
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 1: And if I am who I say I am, it

483
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter where I am, I under still

484
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: be who I am. I mean, I'm inn a fucked

485
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 1: up situation. There's no way to sugarcoat that has after

486
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: side taking fun for all these years. But I am

487
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 1: not the situation. The situation is fucked up. I'm not

488
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: fucked up. I make sure that I'm not fucked up.

489
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:13,959
Speaker 1: I have a routine. I've learned how to meditate. When

490
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: I was in my early twenties and I was lucky Jason,

491
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 1: I met and was meant to buy some very remarkable

492
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 1: men here in person five figures. One was my boxing coach,

493
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: and the other guy named Guy was like a philosopher, poet,

494
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: you know, kind of turned me onto a lot of

495
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: literature and was like a therapist as well, can to

496
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: help me deal with some of the trauma. And then

497
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: when I arrived on Defrow, I met another older guy

498
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: named Snoop, who I reference in the music in the

499
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: album that we put out, the few first album. You know,

500
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 1: he's meant to it showed me how to do yoga,

501
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: how to actually live, and you know I was able

502
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 1: to pursue myself even in this little space. You know,

503
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: I started developing my inner life. You know, I've origin

504
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: in their life. You know, I've read, you know, close

505
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: two thousand.

506
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 2: Books, man, and I have to ask of the those

507
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,959
Speaker 2: the two thousand books that you've read, which one had

508
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: the most profound impact on you.

509
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: Well, one of the things that I was given to

510
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 1: understand that if I wanted to change my situation, I

511
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: had to learn how to write my mind. So I

512
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: dropped out of school in tenth grade. And so one

513
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,719
Speaker 1: of the books that I read that taught me how

514
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 1: to write was Richard Wright's Black Boy. I read that

515
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: book every day for you know, a few years. I

516
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: was reading with the intent of learning how to write,

517
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: and so reading that is how I ultimately became a

518
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: writer myself and wrote my memoir. Condemned was chronical, you know,

519
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: my journey through the criminal justice system on death row.

520
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 2: This is the most important part of the story in

521
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: my opinion. Right, of course, I'm talking about your poetry,

522
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: your performances, music writing. Wrote Condemned, as I understand it,

523
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 2: in solitary confinement on a typewriter a few pages at

524
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 2: a time, right, and dictated it. Every morning I telephoned

525
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 2: to somebody who transcribed each and every word. You founded

526
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 2: a literacy program, learned to play yoga, meditation. I mean,

527
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 2: I think most people are listening and trying to think

528
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 2: which people from their life, you know, friends circle has

529
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 2: accomplished what you've accomplished.

530
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: And I'm doing the same that you are trying to

531
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: do a cason that you know anybody else trying to do.

532
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: You're trying to make the most out of your want

533
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: and only life. And the circumstances are different, yes, but

534
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: the goal is to say, is to do something right

535
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: just with my life.

536
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 4: Tell us what is Native Sons.

537
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: That's a literacy program that you founded.

538
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, Lizia, you know Richard Wright, as I said, man

539
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: had a big impact on my life, not just on

540
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: my writing, but just on how to engage with life.

541
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: And I just thought that if I had read that

542
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: book when I was thirteen in the Juvenile that it

543
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: probably would have changed something in terms of my self

544
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: concept and how I look at life. And so I

545
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: just started reading with high school students in the inner

546
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: cities here in Ohio and New York City, and it's

547
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: really really a reward and experience.

548
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's incredible. It's kind of like you're reaching back

549
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 2: almost like trying to help your younger self and You've

550
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: been doing that and so much more with one of

551
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 2: the unsung heroes of your story, Amy Gordeyev. She helps

552
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 2: facilitate the literacy program events. She's the person that transcribed

553
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 2: your memoir Condemned over the phone, as well as advocated

554
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 2: for you to us and Leah Rothman of The Real

555
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 2: Killer podcast. She's also the person that facilitates what you

556
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, and I'm talking about Freedom First, which started

557
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 2: as a concert series with New York based jazz musicians

558
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 2: and you on the phone from death Row sharing poetry

559
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 2: and spoken word. You've done shows literally like it seems like,

560
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 2: all over the world from your cell. It's really incredible

561
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 2: what you've been able to accomplish.

562
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: You know, because I have time. You know. These people

563
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: have keeven me time, you know, and given me really

564
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: a gift of time.

565
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 2: It's truly amazing to hear your perspective, and I believe

566
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,719
Speaker 2: if I could come around to it being a gift

567
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 2: if not for the fact that you have to also

568
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 2: spend that gift of time fighting for your freedom and

569
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: your life, your very life. So let's turn to your appeals.

570
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 2: There were a number of potential constitutional violations, like whether

571
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 2: or not some jurors were excluded due to racial bias,

572
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 2: But the main issue was and is, the withholding of

573
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 2: exculpatory evidence. But this issue is kind of split into

574
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: two parts. The first whether or not the way in

575
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: which the information that was shared with the defense that

576
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 2: trial constituted or Brady violation, the landmark Supreme Court case

577
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 2: that ruled that the state must turn over all evidence

578
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 2: that might exonerate the defendant. And if you remember, the

579
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 2: judge read statement summaries detached from their sources.

580
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 3: The appellate court said these statements were turned over. That

581
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 3: ignores the fact that they were turned over in such

582
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 3: a way that they couldn't satisfy the very basic premise

583
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 3: of Brady, that they're turned over in a way to

584
00:31:59,080 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 3: defend yourself.

585
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: Right, how was he supposed to defend himself with these

586
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 2: sort of phantom statements with no names attached. So how

587
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 2: did the ruling get around that obviously clearly logical conclusion.

588
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 3: They said that they weren't exculpatory, which sort of follows

589
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 3: the prosecutor's very narrow definition of Brady, which is that

590
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 3: they weren't exculpatory because they said that other people did it,

591
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 3: but they didn't say that Keith didn't do.

592
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 2: It, which is patently ridiculous. There were plenty of people

593
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 2: in that prison eight hundred and nineteen, to be exact,

594
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: and they weren't specifically excluded either. And so what did

595
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 2: the court say to address that?

596
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 3: They said it wasn't material under Brady, and material under

597
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 3: Brady is effectively, if it wouldn't have changed the outcome

598
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 3: of trial, then it's not material. And so we don't

599
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 3: need to reverse a conviction based on the fact that

600
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 3: these statements weren't turned over in a usable fashion.

601
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 2: So that refers to what Pete Meyern Tiger did turn

602
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 2: over a trial. And then comes the second Brady issue,

603
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 2: the exculpatory evidence that was withheld from the defense and

604
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 2: later discovered by two attorneys who were appointed to handle

605
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 2: Keith's federal appeal, Kate McGarry and David Dawton. Now they

606
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 2: turned up the initial witness statements that we revealed earlier,

607
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 2: and at least two of those satisfy even the very

608
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: narrow thread the needle Brady standard that Pete Meyer and

609
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 2: Tiger devised. Anthony Walker and Lewis Jones both named everyone

610
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 2: in the death squad and specifically excluded Keith. And then

611
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,719
Speaker 2: there's the statement about Stacy Gordon.

612
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 3: There were statements from other incarcerated people saying that Gordon

613
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 3: opened the cells that the alleged Niches were placed in

614
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 3: and was the leader of the death squad, which is

615
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 3: basically what Keith was convicted of. Gordon himself admitted to

616
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 3: killing another incarcerated person.

617
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 2: And then was never charged with that murder, but rather

618
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 2: with assault of a corrections officer with a sentence to

619
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: run concurrent by the way, with the time he already had,

620
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: and then at that assault proceeding, Gordon specifically excluded Keith.

621
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 3: So that is again very clear material Brady evidence.

622
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: But the state courts heard all of that and didn't

623
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 2: think even one juror would have thought it mattered at

624
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 2: the time, even though that's all it takes to change

625
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 2: an outcome of trial exactly.

626
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: I was told not to suspect any release from the

627
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: state courts. I thought I will receive release once I

628
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 1: got to the federal court. And the only one out

629
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: of all the Lucasville prisoners who were granted every ditionary

630
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: hearing wom been back in two thousand and seven. I

631
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 1: believe it was and put Mark.

632
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 2: Pete Myer on the stand, and this was when he

633
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 2: came clean about the impossibly narrow standard by which they

634
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 2: deemed something exculpatory.

635
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 3: Right, I mean, it's a it's a strange thing that

636
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 3: the courts did in reviewing those statements.

637
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 4: Right.

638
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 3: They bought Pete Meyer's logic and said that if a

639
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 3: statement said that some people committed the murder but didn't

640
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 3: directly exclude Keith, then it wasn't exculpatory, okay.

641
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: But Pete Meyer and Tiger did withhold statements that were

642
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 2: not absolved by this ridiculous standard, statements that did specifically

643
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 2: exclude Keith. And yet the federal and state courts both

644
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 2: did the same thing, saying that the statements from Anthony Walker,

645
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 2: Lewis Jones, and Stacy Gordon wouldn't have made a difference

646
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: at trial. So Keith's habeas was denied in twenty eleven,

647
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 2: as was the appeal in twenty fifteen, and in twenty sixteen,

648
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court denied Sir Tierrari, refusing to review the

649
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 2: evidence and the lower court's decision. Separately, there's been an

650
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 2: ongoing legal battle over the lethal.

651
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 4: Injection protocol in America.

652
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,879
Speaker 2: Essentially, the rest of the world is so disgusted by

653
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 2: us that they've been trying to starve us of the

654
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 2: drugs that were deemed to be quote humane, a ridiculous

655
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 2: word for this, and approved thereby for use in our

656
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 2: lethal injection protocols. I'm talking about sodium thiopental or pentobarbital,

657
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 2: the anesthetic acting as the first drug in the three

658
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 2: drug cocktail. By twenty fourteen, states began to run out

659
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 2: of the drug, and so they started looking for alternatives

660
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 2: like medazzlam, which then triggered legal challenges from those facing

661
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 2: their death penalty. The thing is with medazzelam. In many cases,

662
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 2: the condemned have suffered and writhed in agony on the

663
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: gurney for the better part of an hour, which one

664
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 2: would think would constitute a violation of the Eighth Amendment

665
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 2: ban on cruel and Unusual punishment, but our current Supreme

666
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 2: Court did not agree. However, this long legal battle over

667
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 2: the injection protocol did have the positive effect of halting executions,

668
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 2: even if only temporarily in the meantime. For Keith, after

669
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 2: his federal habeas was denied, he fired his attorneys and

670
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 2: his case was given to the Tennessee Federal Defenders. But

671
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 2: with Medazzelam cleared for use by the Supreme Court the

672
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 2: United States, various states that still have capital punishment began

673
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 2: setting execution dates again, including Ohio, which caused an imminent

674
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 2: and very real threat to Keith's life that has since

675
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 2: been averted. And we'll get to that in a minute,

676
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 2: but first let's get to the Tennessee Federal Defenders.

677
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 3: The Tennessee Federal Defenders took over the case. They did

678
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 3: successfully get access to additional files that the Appellate Council

679
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 3: did not have access to. We're now going to be

680
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 3: reviewing those. They were going to attempt to bring an

681
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 3: actual innocence claim. They recognized that it needed to happen

682
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 3: in state court first, but their jurisdiction is limited to

683
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 3: federal court, so they were not able to make that motion.

684
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 3: So since then, you know, Keith has needed someone to

685
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 3: come in who would be able to make a motion

686
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 3: in state court to bring in any newly discovered evidence.

687
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: And that's where you and the team at belldoc Levine,

688
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 2: and Hoffman come in.

689
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 3: Yes, so David Singleton at the Ohio Justice and Policy

690
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 3: Center is our local council. And then we're also working

691
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 3: with Joshua Jack Jones at Northwestern Law School. We've now

692
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 3: gotten all the materials from the Tennessee Federal Defenders the

693
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 3: process of digitizing all of that. We have an army

694
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 3: of attorneys and student attorneys now that are going to

695
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 3: be reviewing it in tandem, using the coding system to

696
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 3: bubble everything up to get to the attorneys that'll be

697
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 3: writing the brief.

698
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: So there are still some promising legal avenues available along

699
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,280
Speaker 2: with the potential for additional exculpatory material that you have already.

700
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 2: And now Governor Dwine has granted Keith a reprieve. It's

701
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 2: cold comfort, but still and it's insane that it ever

702
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 2: got this close. But Keith had a scheduled execution date

703
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 2: of November sixteen, twenty twenty three. But now his team

704
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 2: has a real chance to litigate his case and we

705
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 2: are hoping against hope that justice delayed will not be

706
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 2: justice denied. So what can our audience do to.

707
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: Help and go to my website Keima dot org or

708
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 1: follow me on Facebook, Justice PIMW just petition on those

709
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 1: various pages that you can you can sign as submitted

710
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,919
Speaker 1: to the government, just to indicate to him, how many

711
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: people are aware of my situation, who are watching the

712
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: decisions that he makes in regard to my situation?

713
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 2: All right, We're going to have actions steps linked in

714
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: the bio. It's important to note that Justice for Keith

715
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 2: Lamar is a nonprofit five oh one c three. There

716
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 2: will also be ways that you can delve even deeper

717
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 2: into this case, including another podcast, the entire second season

718
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,720
Speaker 2: of The Real Killer with journalists and host Leah Rothman.

719
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 2: We're also going to link to Keith's book, his upcoming shows,

720
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 2: and how you can experience his work and get involved.

721
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 2: So with that, we come to my very favorite part

722
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 2: of the show, closing arguments. First of all, I think

723
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,320
Speaker 2: each of you. Then I'm going to kick back in

724
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 2: my chair, turn my microphone off and leave my headphones on,

725
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 2: probably close my eyes and just listen for anything else

726
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 2: you want to share with me and our incredible audience.

727
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 2: So Keegan On, don't you go first? Then Keith, you'll

728
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,280
Speaker 2: take us hop into the sunset.

729
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 3: Keith is innocent and at minimum he did not receive

730
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 3: a fair trial. He needs to finally get a fair

731
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 3: look at his case by a court. You know, I

732
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 3: think Keith has said it best. He's not asking any

733
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 3: attorney to promise that he will get exonerated. He wants

734
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 3: us to create a document that lays out his story,

735
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 3: shows just how many constitutional violations occurred in his trial,

736
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 3: just how much exculpatory evidence there is, and put that

737
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 3: in front of a judge and make a judge look

738
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,879
Speaker 3: at all of that and say we're going to put

739
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,439
Speaker 3: you to death. Anyway, Keith wants his story out there.

740
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 3: He wants, if he's executed, this to be something that

741
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 3: people look back on and say, look, that shows just

742
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 3: how inhuman this system was, just how doomed this civilization was,

743
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,800
Speaker 3: that it would put people to death based on trials

744
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 3: that were egregiously unfair. And I think that Keith's trial

745
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 3: was egregiously unfair, and we're coming in to try to

746
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 3: write that. Unfortunately, our only method of writing that is

747
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 3: to find new evidence outside of that trial, get back

748
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 3: into court, exonerate Keith and Stay's execution.

749
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 1: As I'm talking about all this shit, it's a lie too, man,

750
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: that you know, the kind of you know, if you

751
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: didn't have the statements, if they threw away all the

752
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: statements like they did, threw away all the physical evidence,

753
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: no one would be leave this story but the law

754
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 1: and behold the mount of evidence. You know, all this shit.

755
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: So for no other reason, the world want to know

756
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: about this, what happened to me, what they did to me.

757
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: And it might be, you know, I might find myself

758
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: strapped to a guarney. But it won't be because I

759
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: want to death row and laid down and watch their

760
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 1: color television. It won't be because I sat down in

761
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: that cell and then opened up a legal book that

762
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: I didn't do everything that I possibly could in furtherance

763
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: of my own life. And it won't be because the

764
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: public didn't know about what it did. But that's what

765
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,479
Speaker 1: this podcast is about. That's what the book is about,

766
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 1: that's what the documentary about. That's all what that's all about.

767
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: They won't be able to call this justice.

768
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 3: Now.

769
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: I might not be previct them from executing me. These

770
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: people have been killing they're good, and that their assisting

771
00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 1: at executing people, lensing people. And I was trying the

772
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: ranks of my ancestors. That's how I look at that

773
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: and sit there. That happened. I'm doing everything to prevent

774
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: that from happening, you know, But one thing for so

775
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: they won't be able to call this justice though, and

776
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 1: that's my goal. And so I'm retrying my case in

777
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 1: the court of public opinion. And it's a hard sale

778
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 1: until you read the evidence. You know you haven't right

779
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: there in your hand. You know I didn't have that.

780
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 1: A jury didn't see that, not that it would have

781
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,439
Speaker 1: made a difference. But we live in a different era now,

782
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: and I'm hoping that people in the day's era, after

783
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: seeing George Floyd a retard, and Breonna Taylor and so

784
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 1: on and so forth, that they would, you know, respond

785
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: differently to this evidence and not say that it doesn't

786
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: mean anything, because obviously I came to prison that did

787
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 1: something with my life. I rehabilitated myself, and then that's

788
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: what this looks about. Then I haven't I have done that.

789
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: I'm a perfect nity for victims. We all have to

790
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: give given a chance to learn from our mistakes and

791
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 1: become a benefit to our communities. And what now I'm

792
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: gonna do that if given the chance, if that's what

793
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: we say, we truly are about that. Dedicated past two

794
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: decades of my life mindering young people in the same

795
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 1: situation I wasn't in when I was thirteen years old

796
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 1: but now intent My bid hasn't got any sulphone because

797
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: of these things I've been doing. I'm doing because it's

798
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: in my heart to do that, because I had a

799
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: recognition that this is what I'm supposed to be doing

800
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 1: with my life in spite of the postshit that happened

801
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: to me.

802
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrong for Conviction. You can

803
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 2: listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts

804
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,720
Speaker 2: one week early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus

805
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team

806
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 2: Connor Hall, Andy Chelsea, and Lyla Robinson, as well as

807
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,720
Speaker 2: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Awartis.

808
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:50,240
Speaker 4: And Jeff Cliburn.

809
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 2: The music in this production was supplied by three time

810
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 2: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us

811
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and

812
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 2: at Wrong Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram

813
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 2: at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of

814
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 2: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number

815
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 2: one