1
00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:03,400
Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's Josh, your old pal, and for this

2
00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,760
Speaker 1: week's select I've chosen our episode on Utsi the Iceman,

3
00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,920
Speaker 1: from November of twenty nineteen. Utsi was discovered high in

4
00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,800
Speaker 1: the Alps by hikers in nineteen ninety one, and since

5
00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,560
Speaker 1: then he has become perhaps the world's most closely studied corpse.

6
00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,799
Speaker 1: He's not only fascinating because of the information he's brought

7
00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,280
Speaker 1: us about everyday life in the copper Age, where he

8
00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,920
Speaker 1: hails from. He's also fascinating because of what he demonstrates

9
00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,040
Speaker 1: researchers are able to do in the present today. They've

10
00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,040
Speaker 1: gone so far as to recreate his last couple of

11
00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,720
Speaker 1: days on Earth. That's how MAC researchers are today. Hope

12
00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:40,159
Speaker 1: you enjoy this episode because it's a great one.

13
00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:52,840
Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

14
00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,480
Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. There's Chuck,

15
00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,800
Speaker 1: and there's guest producer Josh over there, which makes us

16
00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,680
Speaker 1: if you should know all and.

17
00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,199
Speaker 2: Guest uh ghost host Chuck?

18
00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:08,039
Speaker 1: Are you a ghost now? Did you die? Now?

19
00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:09,560
Speaker 2: I just thought if there was two josh is in here,

20
00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:10,560
Speaker 2: I feel a little left out.

21
00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:12,600
Speaker 1: Oh I see and ganged up on.

22
00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I had no clever way to say it.

23
00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:17,119
Speaker 1: Ghost host, You're right about that.

24
00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:19,400
Speaker 2: My mouth is working today, my brain.

25
00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:21,959
Speaker 1: That's all right. It's been a long week already. It's

26
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:23,840
Speaker 1: only Tuesday, really right? Yeah?

27
00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:24,440
Speaker 2: Is it just me?

28
00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:26,959
Speaker 1: No, it's been a long week.

29
00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,280
Speaker 2: I mean today's like I know, I don't want to complain.

30
00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,160
Speaker 2: Never mind, everything's great. Hey, let me ask you something.

31
00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:34,720
Speaker 2: Does otsy have an um loud or not?

32
00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,240
Speaker 1: Yes, it's it'sy okay, rhymes with tutsy. I saw someone

33
00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,280
Speaker 1: put it. I think are good friends at Smithsonian Magazine.

34
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's ittsy. There's a bit of an R in there.

35
00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:49,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like ittsy all right, like Tutsy Rollsy the

36
00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,040
Speaker 1: Dead Mummy. It'sy.

37
00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,120
Speaker 2: This is a good one. This is exciting. I've been

38
00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:56,320
Speaker 2: wanting to do one on this one too.

39
00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:01,160
Speaker 1: I had too. But in what spurned? Spurned or spurn

40
00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:05,840
Speaker 1: is where you say get away and spurs like go ahead, okay, nice,

41
00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,519
Speaker 1: Yeah that makes sense because you're using your spurs spurred.

42
00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:10,160
Speaker 2: Sure, I'm sure that's where that comes from.

43
00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,720
Speaker 1: Surely. Okay, Wow, Chuck just blew my mind? Uh what

44
00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,120
Speaker 1: spurred this was there? Let's see you made some news

45
00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,679
Speaker 1: recently because they managed to trace his last like day

46
00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:23,200
Speaker 1: and a half.

47
00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, really like in the past few days even.

48
00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, and about fifty three hundred years ago. He had

49
00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,239
Speaker 1: the same thoughts that we had when we started this podcast.

50
00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,360
Speaker 1: He's like, it's only Tuesday, and this has been a

51
00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,760
Speaker 1: long week already, a long, deadly, bloody week.

52
00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:38,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. I've been interested in this since I saw the

53
00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:44,920
Speaker 2: facial reconstruction photos. I was like, or's he was Jack Palance?

54
00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:46,239
Speaker 1: Chris Christophferson?

55
00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:46,760
Speaker 2: Is that?

56
00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:47,000
Speaker 1: Oh?

57
00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:48,880
Speaker 2: Okay, dude, A little bit of both.

58
00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,800
Speaker 1: No, it's like they said, mister Christophferson, please come in

59
00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:53,240
Speaker 1: so we can.

60
00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:55,440
Speaker 2: Well, now that I think about it, Christofferson and Jack

61
00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,960
Speaker 2: Palance are have some similarities. If you put a beard

62
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:04,080
Speaker 2: on Jack Palance, yeah, sure, squinty eyes, yeah, I guess,

63
00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:09,160
Speaker 2: soundish face, Yeah, I guess I could see both. Christofferson, Man,

64
00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:09,919
Speaker 2: what a legend.

65
00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:15,440
Speaker 1: Remember, Yeah, look there's Chris Christofferson kidding, that's it'sy.

66
00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's me and Bobby McGee right there.

67
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,560
Speaker 1: Exactly Did you see that Ken Burns documentary?

68
00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,359
Speaker 2: No? I didn't, not yet, you haven't yet. Still No,

69
00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:26,760
Speaker 2: I went to buy it the other day and I

70
00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:27,839
Speaker 2: just have not yet.

71
00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:28,560
Speaker 1: So good.

72
00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,760
Speaker 2: You got to buy that stuff, right, yeah, all right.

73
00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,000
Speaker 2: I just didn't know if there was a work around.

74
00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:34,639
Speaker 2: And you're like, oh, no, dude, here's what you do.

75
00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:37,280
Speaker 2: I mean, I'll buy it. It's like sixty bucks.

76
00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,320
Speaker 1: Oh wow, PBS gives it away for free.

77
00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:42,280
Speaker 2: What do you got some PBS connection?

78
00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:44,520
Speaker 1: No, it was on PBS for a while.

79
00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,440
Speaker 2: Oh do you have cable or something? See, I don't

80
00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:47,120
Speaker 2: have I don't.

81
00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,200
Speaker 1: Even think you have to have cable. Oh you mean

82
00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:54,560
Speaker 1: like like you just stream? Yes, you're you're up the creek.

83
00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:56,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. I thought you meant no, you don't have to

84
00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,840
Speaker 2: have cable to get PBS. You just like they help

85
00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,840
Speaker 2: people in the world and exactly just beams under your eyelids.

86
00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:05,400
Speaker 1: You know what I was thinking. You have to stand

87
00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,400
Speaker 1: there and hold like a coat hanger a certain way

88
00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,960
Speaker 1: and your TV in the other hand. Oh, sure you

89
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,120
Speaker 1: can get PBS.

90
00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:12,960
Speaker 2: I'm gonna buy it. Though it looks great.

91
00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,560
Speaker 1: Why not? It is good, and I would say I

92
00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,440
Speaker 1: would say it's worth roughly sixty dollars. It's pretty good.

93
00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,880
Speaker 1: But anyway, Chris Christopherson figures Big into one of the episodes, like.

94
00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,720
Speaker 2: It's not worth more than forty five, but go ahead

95
00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:25,279
Speaker 2: and pay.

96
00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,520
Speaker 1: That right because it goes to Kim Burn's hairdresser.

97
00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,840
Speaker 2: That's right, And that's quite a collection of brushes that

98
00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:31,880
Speaker 2: that person has to maintain.

99
00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,960
Speaker 1: But Chris Christophferson is interviewed like today, Oh interesting, he

100
00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,799
Speaker 1: looks exactly like let's see now.

101
00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:41,479
Speaker 2: Well, I'll try to get him on movie Crush because

102
00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,360
Speaker 2: he played the City Winery, which is like attached store

103
00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,920
Speaker 2: building basically, So I will try and get people from

104
00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,280
Speaker 2: over there on the basis of like are you gotta

105
00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,680
Speaker 2: do is walk over the across the parking lot?

106
00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:52,239
Speaker 1: Right.

107
00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:57,760
Speaker 2: His manager emailed me back and said, and this should

108
00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,480
Speaker 2: hearten you as well, said I'm actually at stuff. You

109
00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,839
Speaker 2: should know. Fan nice the manager and said, but you

110
00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:06,160
Speaker 2: know what, he doesn't really do interviews anymore. So maybe

111
00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,839
Speaker 2: I just got the easy the easy pass, right, But man,

112
00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,479
Speaker 2: I really wanted that one to come through to dude

113
00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,400
Speaker 2: in this office. It would have been pretty special. Yeah,

114
00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:21,279
Speaker 2: but I'm no ken Burns. No, who is ken Burns?

115
00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:22,359
Speaker 1: Yeah? That's true.

116
00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:24,400
Speaker 2: All right, let's talk. Should we take a break.

117
00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:27,599
Speaker 1: Let's go back chuck a little bit, let's get in

118
00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:29,880
Speaker 1: the way back machine. It's been a little while. Okay,

119
00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,359
Speaker 1: we're going to go back, and we even know exactly

120
00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:42,799
Speaker 1: what we're going back to. One thirty PM on September nineteenth,

121
00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:43,880
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one.

122
00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:48,960
Speaker 2: Whoa ninety one. I'm in college. It's a salad days.

123
00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,920
Speaker 2: I'm wearing a Flavor Flave clock around my neck.

124
00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:58,640
Speaker 1: Nice. I was a sophomore in high school. Yeah, that's

125
00:05:58,640 --> 00:05:59,680
Speaker 1: all I have to say about that.

126
00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,080
Speaker 2: I never wore the flavor of flaveclock. But he kind

127
00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,760
Speaker 2: to let that be. Well I should have. I was

128
00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,360
Speaker 2: not cool enough, but I was listening to Apocalypse ninety one.

129
00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,320
Speaker 1: No, I'm saying, you shouldn't have admitted that you didn't work.

130
00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,160
Speaker 2: Now, I know, okay, but no one believe that. You know,

131
00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:14,039
Speaker 2: I'm not that cool, you know.

132
00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,799
Speaker 1: Aaron Cooper made a pretty awesome one of my favorite

133
00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,919
Speaker 1: ones of all time was US as Public Enemy, and

134
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,040
Speaker 1: I think I'm flavor flavor in it. But you look

135
00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,520
Speaker 1: like Chuck D. And Chuck D. It's a cool. It's

136
00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,080
Speaker 1: a cool photoshop of us.

137
00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:28,760
Speaker 2: I tried to get Chuck D on movie Crushed Too.

138
00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:30,719
Speaker 1: Did he play the City Winery?

139
00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:32,360
Speaker 2: No? But he lives in Atlanta.

140
00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:33,280
Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't know that.

141
00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:34,599
Speaker 2: And at least part time.

142
00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:36,120
Speaker 1: Boy did he say?

143
00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,800
Speaker 2: He didn't say anything because the management company out emailed

144
00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,360
Speaker 2: said we don't manage him anymore. So it was just

145
00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:41,960
Speaker 2: a dead end.

146
00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:42,560
Speaker 1: I gotcha.

147
00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,320
Speaker 2: But Chuck d if you're listening upon City Market, let's come,

148
00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,240
Speaker 2: let's talk about your favorite movie.

149
00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,560
Speaker 1: Right, and also shout out to Chris Christophferson's manager.

150
00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:53,960
Speaker 2: That's right, of course.

151
00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:55,719
Speaker 1: All right, boy, we're gonna have to go back and

152
00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:56,880
Speaker 1: edit all this out. Now.

153
00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,720
Speaker 2: It's one thirty pm it September nineteenth, nineteen ninety one,

154
00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,920
Speaker 2: and we are hiking with Erica and Helmut Simon. They're German,

155
00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,640
Speaker 2: but we are hiking in the oats all Alps in Italy.

156
00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,080
Speaker 1: Yes, between Italy and Austria, like right on the border,

157
00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:14,840
Speaker 1: very close to the border, and on this peak. The

158
00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,400
Speaker 1: Simons decided that as they were descending that they would

159
00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,040
Speaker 1: take a short cut. And the shortcut took them through

160
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:26,280
Speaker 1: this past pastor crevass, and in this little shallow crevass,

161
00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,240
Speaker 1: they said, oh, there's a there's a dead body, there's

162
00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:30,840
Speaker 1: a corpse.

163
00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,360
Speaker 2: And you were like what I was, because we are

164
00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,320
Speaker 2: there too, right yeah, And I said.

165
00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:41,000
Speaker 1: It's right on time, boy, right exactly, yeah, that's great.

166
00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,200
Speaker 1: So the thing is is they could they could see

167
00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,720
Speaker 1: it was a cadaver, Like they could see the corpses back,

168
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,760
Speaker 1: back of the head, arm hanging out, and they just thought, well,

169
00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,400
Speaker 1: we heard that there was a hiker that was recently killed,

170
00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,680
Speaker 1: and that's probably who that is. We'll take a couple

171
00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,240
Speaker 1: of pictures and go down and tell somebody who owns

172
00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:00,160
Speaker 1: like the nearest line.

173
00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:01,880
Speaker 2: Right, and on the way down, you and I are

174
00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,400
Speaker 2: going like, that was not a hiker that was recently killed.

175
00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,800
Speaker 1: No, even I knew that, Like, did you see that guy?

176
00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:08,840
Speaker 2: He was super old.

177
00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,800
Speaker 1: He was a mummy. The Simons are crazy.

178
00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,160
Speaker 2: And the Simons were not crazy, but I'm sure they

179
00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:17,560
Speaker 2: were saying the same thing. They were just out of

180
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:18,280
Speaker 2: your shot.

181
00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,880
Speaker 1: Right, So they they some people went up and I

182
00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:23,560
Speaker 1: think within a day or two they went up to

183
00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,520
Speaker 1: try to get this dead hiker who they thought was

184
00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,320
Speaker 1: a dead hiker out and they did a terrible job

185
00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,800
Speaker 1: with it. Yeah, they used ski poles to chip away

186
00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,720
Speaker 1: at the ice. They used an ice hammer to chip

187
00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:41,160
Speaker 1: away at the ice, damaged the body. But they think, oh,

188
00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,600
Speaker 1: it's just like some hiker or whatever. It will be fine.

189
00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:45,280
Speaker 2: Put him in a wooden casket.

190
00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,960
Speaker 1: And this article makes it sound like he like the

191
00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,320
Speaker 1: whole world or everybody who knew about this body just

192
00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,040
Speaker 1: thought it was a modern hiker for you know, a while,

193
00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,920
Speaker 1: until the body came down the mountain. That's not a case.

194
00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:01,760
Speaker 1: One of the things that when they were getting this

195
00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:07,760
Speaker 1: body out the accidentally excavated was a copper headed axe,

196
00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,280
Speaker 1: and word got out that there was an axe with

197
00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,840
Speaker 1: this body, and that is really weird. And it was

198
00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,280
Speaker 1: copper copper with like a wooden shaft and everything was

199
00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:20,920
Speaker 1: clearly a very very very old axe. And so pretty

200
00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,360
Speaker 1: quickly they realized that they were onto something.

201
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,200
Speaker 2: Here for sure. And what they found out was this

202
00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,679
Speaker 2: body hi frozen body.

203
00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:29,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

204
00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,360
Speaker 2: One of my favorite Simpsons lines ever, five thousand years old.

205
00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,720
Speaker 1: That's the same like same little bit as when.

206
00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:42,040
Speaker 2: He goes moon Pie had time to be Abe. That

207
00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,120
Speaker 2: was Abe's buddy. What's his name?

208
00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,720
Speaker 1: Oh? Man, it'll come to me later, I'll say it.

209
00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,679
Speaker 1: People are screaming out there. I canture beer fill cos

210
00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:53,160
Speaker 1: right now.

211
00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:56,839
Speaker 2: Oh what is it?

212
00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,160
Speaker 1: I want to say, like Chauncey or Chalmers? Is not

213
00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:01,840
Speaker 1: that something very similar to that? Honestly? Look it up.

214
00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,160
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, I'm going to keep going. Okay, So

215
00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,520
Speaker 2: they get this body out and removed it on September

216
00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,480
Speaker 2: twenty third, ninety one, sealed it up, like you said,

217
00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:16,040
Speaker 2: flew it out of town in a wooden coffin to Ennsbrook,

218
00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,479
Speaker 2: the Institute of Forensic Medicine, And there was an archaeologist

219
00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:24,040
Speaker 2: named Conrad Spindla there who said, this body's at least

220
00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,280
Speaker 2: four thousand years old, at the very least.

221
00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,480
Speaker 1: What's abes friends name, Jasper Beery Lasper?

222
00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:34,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. So they nicknamed them Utsy because of

223
00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,280
Speaker 2: the region of the oats, all Alps. Very cute little

224
00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:38,920
Speaker 2: name it is.

225
00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,120
Speaker 1: Other people call him frozen Fritz. Oh really yeah, I

226
00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:43,160
Speaker 1: like it's the way more.

227
00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:44,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ootsy's nice. Yeah.

228
00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:49,439
Speaker 1: So in pretty short order they realized that what they

229
00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:54,440
Speaker 1: had just excavated in the roughest possible manner and accidentally

230
00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:59,480
Speaker 1: come upon was the corpse of a fifty three hundred

231
00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:01,360
Speaker 1: year old old body.

232
00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:03,840
Speaker 2: Yes, And when I said the guy said it was

233
00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,680
Speaker 2: four thousand years old, he said that was the initial,

234
00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:07,839
Speaker 2: like he's at least this.

235
00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,400
Speaker 1: Old, right, Yeah, But it turns out that after further study,

236
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,040
Speaker 1: they figured out he was actually fifty three hundred years old. Right,

237
00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,720
Speaker 1: and that he lived in the Copper Age, which was

238
00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,720
Speaker 1: a relatively brief period in human history, but a really

239
00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:23,760
Speaker 1: important one between the Neolithic Age at the end of

240
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,600
Speaker 1: the Neolithic Age when the first farmers started to appear,

241
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,120
Speaker 1: and the Bronze Age, when the first what we consider

242
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,920
Speaker 1: society and civilization in history began. Right, And we know

243
00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,920
Speaker 1: very little about this, and what these hikers had discovered

244
00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:43,360
Speaker 1: was a snapshot of life during that time because Leutze

245
00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,720
Speaker 1: appeared to have just died fell where he died.

246
00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:49,520
Speaker 2: Or died where he fell.

247
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:54,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was almost there, and leaving his belongings with him,

248
00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,280
Speaker 1: and it wasn't He wasn't like a great revered figure.

249
00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,040
Speaker 1: He wasn't buried, he wasn't prepared. He was intact for

250
00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:03,520
Speaker 1: fifty three hundred years on this glacier.

251
00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the biggest deal because they have mummies,

252
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,240
Speaker 2: and they have older mummies, but like you said, it's

253
00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,760
Speaker 2: their organs are removed. They're filled with you know, embalming

254
00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,560
Speaker 2: chemicals and things they used at the time for preservation

255
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,720
Speaker 2: for the afterlife and all this. So this was a

256
00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:24,760
Speaker 2: really big deal to find this body just really really

257
00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,400
Speaker 2: scarily well preserved. And when we say well preserved. It

258
00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:33,760
Speaker 2: doesn't look like Chris Christofferson, but not anymore. The organs

259
00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,719
Speaker 2: were there and like, didn't the red blood cells have

260
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:38,880
Speaker 2: stiff inside.

261
00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,640
Speaker 1: Still intact. Yeah, it's the oldest intact blood sample ever taken.

262
00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,320
Speaker 1: Outsi's was so and the fact that he wasn't buried

263
00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,200
Speaker 1: provides a snapshot. It wasn't ritualized. It was this guy

264
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,160
Speaker 1: was just living his life and he died and happened

265
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,920
Speaker 1: to be preserved perfectly. See, his belongings were preserved along

266
00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,160
Speaker 1: with them, and things that are organic can typically typically

267
00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,960
Speaker 1: decay long before fifty three hundred years comes and goes.

268
00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,199
Speaker 1: So his clothing made of like different types of leather

269
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:14,120
Speaker 1: was preserved. His his coat or cape made of woven

270
00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:15,360
Speaker 1: grasses was preserved.

271
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,040
Speaker 2: It was all really cool when you look at the

272
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,840
Speaker 2: shoes and the bear skin hat and right, it's very cool.

273
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,800
Speaker 1: Bear skin hat was another one. His toolkit was preserved.

274
00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,000
Speaker 1: All of the stuff that we had like like just

275
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,280
Speaker 1: kind of little hints and traces and glimpses of from

276
00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:35,400
Speaker 1: different like burial caches or just happened to find some

277
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:40,080
Speaker 1: artifact or whatever. This was like a straight up polaroid

278
00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,480
Speaker 1: picture of life in the Coppers.

279
00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was almost like someone stumbled upon a Museum

280
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,360
Speaker 2: of Natural History display, but it was real, right, you.

281
00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,280
Speaker 1: Know, well put chuck. You know who would have loved

282
00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,240
Speaker 1: that analogy? Chris Christopher's.

283
00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,360
Speaker 2: It's not going to say either Jasper or Artsy.

284
00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,240
Speaker 1: And I don't mean would have in the fact that

285
00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,600
Speaker 1: he's dead, I mean would have had he heard it.

286
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:01,480
Speaker 1: I agree, he's never going to hear this.

287
00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:02,200
Speaker 2: You never know.

288
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,959
Speaker 1: I'm like using reverse they call his manager right now.

289
00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,520
Speaker 2: Well you might as well. Willie Nelson will never listen

290
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,040
Speaker 2: to these either, neither World Dolly Parton. Yeah, we want

291
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:12,360
Speaker 2: all the country legends listening.

292
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,760
Speaker 1: Ronnie millsapp will never hear this, excuse said with this, sure, okay,

293
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,440
Speaker 1: not with us though, because he doesn't listen to stuff,

294
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:20,600
Speaker 1: you should know it never will.

295
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:27,360
Speaker 2: So apparently where see actually fell was pretty lucky because

296
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,840
Speaker 2: it was in a very shallow crevass, and the fact

297
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,160
Speaker 2: that that was kind of walled up on both sides

298
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,600
Speaker 2: of him kept him. If he was just out in

299
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,200
Speaker 2: the open, the freeze thought cycle over the years would

300
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,920
Speaker 2: have washed everything away and ripped him apart. And it

301
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,320
Speaker 2: didn't happen because he kind of fell in this crevass,

302
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,600
Speaker 2: all five to two one hundred and thirty four pounds

303
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:50,040
Speaker 2: of him.

304
00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is one hundred and fifty eight centimeters and

305
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:54,000
Speaker 1: sixty one kilograms.

306
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,240
Speaker 2: That's right. He had brown eyes. Apparently at five to

307
00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,280
Speaker 2: two was even a little short for the time. But

308
00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,360
Speaker 2: he was RiPP Yeah. He was pretty sturdy, you know,

309
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:08,240
Speaker 2: in his mid forties, like we said, and really strong legs.

310
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,680
Speaker 2: And you know, kind of the fun thing about this

311
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:16,560
Speaker 2: is the archaeological forensics of trying to piece together like

312
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,360
Speaker 2: what was he doing, how did he die? We'll get

313
00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,440
Speaker 2: to all that, but just the fact that, like he

314
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,440
Speaker 2: had big legs. They were like this guy, he's probably

315
00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:27,600
Speaker 2: goat hurt her. He's walking up and down these mountains

316
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,440
Speaker 2: all the time, right, look at those calves.

317
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, he looked like that guy from that one Liberty

318
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,960
Speaker 1: Mutual commercial. I don't know what you mean, It doesn't matter.

319
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:38,760
Speaker 1: Like ten people just laughed.

320
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,080
Speaker 2: What else did he had? He had a dagger, He

321
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,040
Speaker 2: had that axe you were talking about. The dagger, had

322
00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,480
Speaker 2: a wicker sheath. He had a backpack. He had a

323
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:49,240
Speaker 2: leather pouch.

324
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. The backpack, by the way, we'll never know how

325
00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,520
Speaker 1: it worked because it got destroyed by the people who

326
00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:56,240
Speaker 1: went and really dug him out of the ice.

327
00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,160
Speaker 2: He had some rudimentary snow shoes. He had a belt

328
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,720
Speaker 2: he had in a belt that matched his cape, right, yeah,

329
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:04,960
Speaker 2: oh man, and we'll talk about that. But apparently they

330
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:05,840
Speaker 2: think that was on purpose.

331
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,320
Speaker 1: Yes, that he was a bit of a fashionista. Yeah.

332
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,200
Speaker 1: He had a couple of like vessels that were lined

333
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,240
Speaker 1: with maple leaves that he used to carry embers from

334
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,200
Speaker 1: place to place so he wouldn't have to start a

335
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,760
Speaker 1: fire again. And all this stuff. You're like, I'm cool,

336
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,040
Speaker 1: a flint dagger, cool copper acts. Oh, some members I

337
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,160
Speaker 1: think it's all cool. Yeah I do too. Yeah, but

338
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,640
Speaker 1: I can see people out there being like, uh, talk

339
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,600
Speaker 1: about math or something. Right. The thing is is like

340
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,440
Speaker 1: all the stuff that seems kind of boring and superficial

341
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,120
Speaker 1: has been so thoroughly studied that it's actually been used

342
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,400
Speaker 1: to paint a larger picture. Like we understand the copper

343
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,640
Speaker 1: age in Europe way better than we did before he

344
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,520
Speaker 1: was discovered, just from finding this. The few things that

345
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,840
Speaker 1: he died with, yeah, and him himself.

346
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:58,400
Speaker 2: He also interestingly had sixty one tattoos all over his body.

347
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,440
Speaker 1: Chuck, I've been waiting for this day. What you said

348
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:03,600
Speaker 1: tattoos correctly?

349
00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:05,280
Speaker 2: Oh you mean the tattoos.

350
00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,439
Speaker 1: I mean I shouldn't say anything.

351
00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,360
Speaker 2: So, yeah, and they were. They covered them from head

352
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,399
Speaker 2: to toe in different parts, and they didn't use needles

353
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,080
Speaker 2: back then obviously, but they would rub or cut the

354
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:20,440
Speaker 2: skin open and then rub charcoal inside. And they're all

355
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,639
Speaker 2: They mapped them out in twenty fifteen and organized them

356
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,879
Speaker 2: into nineteen groups, and they are basically, you know, like

357
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,000
Speaker 2: maybe three identical lines, short lines like an inch long,

358
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:35,479
Speaker 2: or like a cross, not a spiritual religious cross, but

359
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:35,960
Speaker 2: you know.

360
00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:40,920
Speaker 1: Like a plus sign, yeah, or like a Chinese character

361
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:46,080
Speaker 1: that has some inspirational association, right, perseverance or something.

362
00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,159
Speaker 2: You get a lower back tattoo of a thorny branch.

363
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,280
Speaker 2: But yeah, they mapped these all out and for a

364
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,560
Speaker 2: while they thought, and some people still think, because they

365
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,200
Speaker 2: were largely found around the joints and along his back

366
00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,000
Speaker 2: and he had problems, and they he basically was marked

367
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,760
Speaker 2: up where he hurt. It looks like, right, and they

368
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,760
Speaker 2: thought it might have been either acup puncture points to

369
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,399
Speaker 2: mark or it might have been the acupuncture treatment itself.

370
00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,280
Speaker 1: Right, But they do think that it had something to

371
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,040
Speaker 1: do with acupuncture, which in and of itself was a

372
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,359
Speaker 1: big revelation because they thought up to that point that

373
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,239
Speaker 1: acupuncture had been invented two thousand years after Utzy and

374
00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,720
Speaker 1: way further east in Asia.

375
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,360
Speaker 2: Right, But now they think that may not have been

376
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,800
Speaker 2: the case because they found a new cluster of tattoos

377
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,160
Speaker 2: on his chest that they didn't formally recognize, and they

378
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,399
Speaker 2: were like, there are no acupuncture points there, and he

379
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:45,520
Speaker 2: didn't have any injuries there. So now they didn't throw

380
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,920
Speaker 2: it out with the bathwater. But there are people now

381
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:49,679
Speaker 2: they're saying like, we don't know if that's true or not.

382
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,919
Speaker 1: No, Okay, So I'm really glad you said that. Everything

383
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,880
Speaker 1: that we know about Utzi, aside from the fact that

384
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,680
Speaker 1: he is dead, yeah, that we have a pretty good

385
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,080
Speaker 1: idea of when he lived, probably what heightweight was, stuff

386
00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,400
Speaker 1: like that. Everything else is interpretation.

387
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:07,760
Speaker 2: Sure, so you.

388
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:14,040
Speaker 1: Have to remember that interpretation super educated and usually displaying

389
00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:18,960
Speaker 1: the current understanding of history or interpretation of history or events,

390
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:24,320
Speaker 1: but it is still interpretation. That's part of archaeology, anthropology,

391
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,120
Speaker 1: and history, especially when you're talking about prehistory. Is he

392
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 1: lived during a time before anybody wrote anything down or

393
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,640
Speaker 1: recorded anything, which makes it prehistoric. But you just bear

394
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:36,760
Speaker 1: that in mind that everything we're talking about and everything

395
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,439
Speaker 1: you go read about Otsie is very much described in

396
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,760
Speaker 1: absolute terms, but it is our picture and image of him.

397
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,840
Speaker 1: How he lived, how he died has really shaped and

398
00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,520
Speaker 1: shifted over the years since he was discovered, and it

399
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,400
Speaker 1: still is. It's still malleable. Nothing is definitive, nothing said

400
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:55,800
Speaker 1: in nice.

401
00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,560
Speaker 2: All right, let's take a break. It's a bad joke.

402
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:23,280
Speaker 2: We'll talk about uh Ertsy's health, right for this. Was

403
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:24,200
Speaker 2: he healthy?

404
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:26,280
Speaker 1: I mean he was.

405
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,720
Speaker 2: No, he was a person of age in his mid

406
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 2: forties of a time where at that age he's going

407
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 2: to be pretty beat up.

408
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, he wasn't unhealthy in like the modern sense where

409
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,560
Speaker 1: he's like deliberately wrecking his health because he's eating too

410
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,440
Speaker 1: much junk food or something like you know me. Yeah,

411
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,119
Speaker 1: but he was unhealthy in the way that a person

412
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,960
Speaker 1: would be unhealthy from living close to the land at

413
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,000
Speaker 1: a time before medicine had really developed.

414
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, no doctors, no dentists. So as you would imagine,

415
00:20:54,359 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 2: he had gum disease, heart disease, lime disease, gall bladderstone,

416
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:02,400
Speaker 2: hardened arteries, gallstones.

417
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, the disorder is so nice. We named it twice.

418
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 2: Right, he had a whipworm parasite in his gut, He

419
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:14,200
Speaker 2: had h pylori in his gut, and all of this

420
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 2: is to say, like you said, he was probably a

421
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 2: pretty normal dude of the mid forties of the time.

422
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 1: Right.

423
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,640
Speaker 2: They couldn't find his stomach for a long time. It's

424
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,880
Speaker 2: amazing how much of the stuff like it was found

425
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 2: over the years, Like this tattoo. This new tattoo was

426
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,200
Speaker 2: just found a few years ago. Yeah, after like many

427
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 2: many years of study.

428
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 1: His birthmark that looks like Abraham Lincoln eluded people for decades.

429
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 2: But they couldn't even find his stomach and then finally

430
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,360
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, here it is. Twenty years later, they

431
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 2: found it wedged up between his ribs and his lungs.

432
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, then they found it because they noticed he had gallstones,

433
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,399
Speaker 1: so they basically traced a path from the gallbladder to

434
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 1: the stomach and said, there it is. We found it.

435
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,120
Speaker 1: And they were really happy they found it because when

436
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,199
Speaker 1: they started to dissect did or take samples from it,

437
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,439
Speaker 1: they found that it was full. Yeah, he died like

438
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 1: within an hour or so of eating his last meal

439
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 1: and hadn't digested it. He had food in his in

440
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 1: his colon, he had food in his intestines.

441
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 2: He had a turtle head peeking out right, that's awesome.

442
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 2: What his last meal was dried ibex and deer meat

443
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,440
Speaker 2: with ink horn wheat.

444
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 1: Yes, and slow plums. I don't know why that wasn't mentioned.

445
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 2: He can get that same meal in Brooklyn.

446
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,400
Speaker 1: Served you by a guy with a waxed mustache and

447
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: like some sort of armband, an arm garter. So yeah,

448
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 1: an arm garter. That's it. That's it, isn't it.

449
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:41,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it.

450
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: So he ate they think some sort of like fatty

451
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 1: cured meat, kind of like a bacon, a cured bacon today.

452
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 1: And the iron ike horn wheat was from bread. And

453
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 1: he also ate slow plums, gotcha? Okay?

454
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 2: Slow plums?

455
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, that they make slow gin from? Oh really, which

456
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:00,719
Speaker 1: I've never had, have you?

457
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:02,120
Speaker 2: That's sloe right?

458
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 1: Yeah right, It's like supposedly a very tart, kind of

459
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 1: bitterish plum, but it was it's like load of vitamins.

460
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 2: I've never had it. And remember it seemed like an

461
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 2: old person. Drink was a slow jin fizz.

462
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,120
Speaker 1: Like an old person who's like one hundred and fifty

463
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: years old.

464
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 2: Yes, when I lived in Arizona, there were all the

465
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 2: snowbirds were down there. They drink like slowjin fizzs.

466
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 1: Really, I've never been present when somebody ordered a slow

467
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 1: gin fizz. Yeah, I would like to try one. So

468
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 1: sure I try one. Okay, Josh, go.

469
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 2: Get a couple of slow gin phizzies.

470
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 1: Stat make it a double.

471
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 2: I guarantee you there's a bar in this dumb building

472
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 2: that has slow jin pzzis on the venue.

473
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 1: Sure you know with arm guards? Can I keep the

474
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 1: arm guard comes with a drink.

475
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit more about the copper Age.

476
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 2: I guess he had. Well, what we'll save his injuries

477
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 2: for a minute here, Okay, we'll talk about a little

478
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 2: about his lifestyle in the copper Age. Like you said,

479
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 2: he was, as demonstrated by his meals, he looked a

480
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 2: pretty like farmy pleasant life down there, it seems like,

481
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 2: but not one without conflict, you know.

482
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 1: Sure, based on his meals, well.

483
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: Based on his meals, he lived a farming type lifestyle.

484
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,119
Speaker 2: But based on injuries we're going to talk about it

485
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 2: seems like that, you know, he had some enemies.

486
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: So from what I saw, and I mean, we used

487
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 1: a lot of different articles, but National Geographic is very

488
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 1: well represented in here Live Sciencehistory dot com, the BBC.

489
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: I came across something from the Penn Pennsylvania, the Penn

490
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: Museum or U Penn Museum. I think they have a

491
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 1: magazine called Expedition that was pretty awesome, had a pretty

492
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 1: great thing. And I saw a couple of things from

493
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: historians that wrote up basically descriptions of Utsy and thought

494
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: co which is just a surprising great resource.

495
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, have you ever noticed, yes, yep.

496
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 1: So in one of these I saw that it was

497
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: kind of put like he lived as a farmer and

498
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 1: enjoyed like the fruits of village life too, so things

499
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: like cheese and processed grains and cereals, so bread and

500
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And the idea is that he didn't

501
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: know how to bake bread or make cheese. He was

502
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: part of a village or a society where somebody knew

503
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 1: how to bake bread and somebody knew how to make cheese,

504
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: so the professions were starting to emerge. But that he

505
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: also was pastoral and that like he herded sheep and

506
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: that's probably what he did most of it most of

507
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: the time. And then he also lived very close to

508
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 1: the earth the land as well, Like his last meal

509
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: was wild game ibecs and deer and slow plums that

510
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: he probably plucked himself. So he was kind of like

511
00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 1: this transitional human from the hunter gather are passed into

512
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: the agrarian, agriculture based future that spread out just ahead

513
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 1: of them.

514
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, like just ahead of them were like real deal

515
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 2: Italians out there. Yeah, bacon bagets.

516
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's French.

517
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, what I mean Italian bread?

518
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, in Italy they just call him bread.

519
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 2: That's right. They I mentioned earlier that his clothes matched

520
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: and they do think, and of course again this is

521
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: all speculation, but these garments were pretty refined, even when

522
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 2: you look at him now, like he had these fur

523
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 2: skin leggings that were held up by suspenders.

524
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 1: By Alexander McQueen.

525
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 2: Oh man, I wouldn't say that.

526
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: I know. That was amazing, so good.

527
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 2: And a great documentary on him too. It's good and sad.

528
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: The they talk about the color of the animal skin zone,

529
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 2: the contrasting colors they think were actually matched like elaborately,

530
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 2: and he had, like, like you said, a sense of style,

531
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 2: like you know, is that possible? Yeah, but I mean

532
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 2: it seems like a lot to extrapolate that his coat

533
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 2: and his belt matched, and so they were like, hey,

534
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 2: he had a real personal identity, whereas in it could

535
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 2: have been just like that's the materials that he had

536
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 2: on hand that fit.

537
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 1: That's possible. But I think what they're what they would

538
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: assert is that it has enough panache. Yeah, that the

539
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: chances of it just being random are very unlikely or

540
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: less likely than it being you know, asserting his sense

541
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: of fashion.

542
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 2: Well, and he was Italian, that's right, So you know

543
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 2: Italians in their fashion go hand in hand.

544
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: I love it. Everyone who's been to Millino knows that,

545
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: or fearensy.

546
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 2: I remember when I was touring Europe as a youth,

547
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 2: my friend and I laughing at the Italian guys and

548
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 2: the hostels were like, these nineteen year old dudes were

549
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 2: so put together and like would spend so much time

550
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 2: in the mirror, wearing the cologne and getting their hair

551
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 2: just perfect. Yeah, we are just disgusting humans. Sure, and

552
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 2: they got the girls, so yeah, it turns out that

553
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: they were onto something.

554
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: A little bit of extraff really does it and the

555
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: big hair.

556
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were great guys. So we met some cool

557
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 2: Italian dudes.

558
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: One of the other things too, though, that the fact

559
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: that he clearly was involved in a village. They think

560
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,239
Speaker 1: that he was associated with a particular village to the

561
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: south in a valley near the mountains. It was things

562
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 1: like bread and cheese that they think they found in

563
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: his body. But also the fact that he did not

564
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: He obviously didn't know how to make his own tools.

565
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: Somebody else had. He probably did not know how to

566
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: weave the cape he was wearing. Somebody else had done that.

567
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, they all had their specialties. Yeah.

568
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: The tattoos, he couldn't have put some of them on

569
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: his own body. He probably went to see a medical

570
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: practitioner to do that. So, yeah, this is at a

571
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: point when specialists and specialized professians are starting to emerge.

572
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really cool time.

573
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is these are the things that we've

574
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,959
Speaker 1: learned from, you know, that we've gleaned from the stuff

575
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: that we found with him. I think it's just astoundingly fascinating.

576
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really cool. This is a really interesting period

577
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 2: I think of human development.

578
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: It's also called, by the way, the copper age or

579
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: the chalcolithic I like copper age. I do too, Chalcolithic

580
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: just kind of coughs out of the mouth, isn't it.

581
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we'll talk a little bit about what might

582
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 2: have happened to Utsy and how he found himself dead

583
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 2: on that mountain, because there are quite a few theories

584
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 2: over the years, and like you said, even this week

585
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: they have some more leads. But he was wounded. He

586
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,239
Speaker 2: had a really bad wound on his right hand. They

587
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: found out he was right handed too, so this is

588
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 2: a big deal between his thumb and his forefinger there.

589
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 2: That area went all the way down to the bone.

590
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 2: But it looks like it had healed up a little bit,

591
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 2: so it probably happened, they said, within a few days

592
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 2: when he died, but it was healing. But it was

593
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: a big injury, like we said, because he was right handed,

594
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 2: But it's not the kind of thing that killed him,

595
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 2: Like he didn't bleed out from that or anything like that.

596
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: No, huh. So it makes you think, well, what did

597
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: kill him then?

598
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 2: Right, Well, they think that might have been from a fight.

599
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 2: Perhaps that wound.

600
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: That has been almost universally agreed upon from the outset

601
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: right that he probably didn't inflict that wound himself. That

602
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: it seems to have been a defensive wound. There's a

603
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: guy named Alexander Horn who's an inspector with the Munich Police,

604
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: and so we should give just a little background for

605
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: a second. When Utsi was found, he was taken into

606
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: Germany down the mountain into Austria Innsbruck. Austria and the

607
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: Germans were heavily involved as well as the Austrians and

608
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: the Italians were less involved, and that's where he kind

609
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: of stayed for the first few years, I think about

610
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: a decade or less after he was discovered. And then

611
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: eventually he was transferred to Italy, the Italian side.

612
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they were like, he's a founder on our side. Yeah,

613
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 2: like it just to barely I think.

614
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: Also, I don't know if this contributed to her if

615
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: it came later, but he does seem to have been

616
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: linked to the Italian side, where like you said, he

617
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: was an Italian, right, So he was transferred to Italy

618
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: and when they took custody of him, man they pulled

619
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: out all the stops. They put him up in Balzano, Italy,

620
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 1: near about I think like thirty miles or something from

621
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: where he was found. They built a museum specifically for him,

622
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: an institute built around studying him, and they proceeded to

623
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: study him more than any other mummy has ever been studied,

624
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: probably any other body than has ever been studied in

625
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: the history of the world. Yeah, for sure, and have

626
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: just churned out paper after paper after paper based on

627
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: their findings from him. So but at first, some of

628
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: the ideas that we have about what happened to him

629
00:31:55,160 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: come from the earliest interpretations posed by the Germans in

630
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: the Austrians when they had custody of Vizzi.

631
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 2: Right, which weren't necessarily right, as it turns out, no, but.

632
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: Some may have been. But my ultimate point was everybody

633
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: says from the outset that he wound the wound in

634
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: his hand was a defensive wound that came from close

635
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: combat with somebody else.

636
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: That's right. For a while they thought there was an

637
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 2: Austrian archaeologist named Conrad Spindler that I mentioned earlier that

638
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 2: they sort of recreated the scene, and their contention early

639
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 2: on was like man that acts is leaning up against

640
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 2: the rock, it's propped up there, like we think everything

641
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: is literally frozen in time from how it was. And

642
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 2: I think that's one of the things that they've later refuted, right,

643
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 2: and they said that it looks like things might have

644
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: moved around some.

645
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, they think that the what would you call it,

646
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: the site I guess from the freeze thaw cycle just

647
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: kind of distributed, redistributed the stuff.

648
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, which you know, it's still all valid, but not

649
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 2: necessarily it was not necessarily exactly as it was at

650
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 2: his moment of death. Indeed, they did find his hat though,

651
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 2: off of his head, as if it just like kind

652
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 2: of fell off of his head, which might have been true.

653
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: Right. So some of those early stuff, they also found

654
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: what they thought were fractured ribs that had not healed. Right,

655
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: So the earliest picture was this like they treated it

656
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: like this is a dead body mystery. Where did this

657
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: dead body come from? How did he die?

658
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well quickly though, they also found pollen in his

659
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: gut that they thought came from an autumn plant, so

660
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: they were like, he died in the fall, right, Okay,

661
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 2: so that's the full setup of the bad information.

662
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: So the first idea, and I think it was Spindler

663
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: who came up with the disaster theory, was I think

664
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: so Conrad Spindler said, Okay, here's what happened to outsy

665
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: he came down from the mountain, probably hurting some sheep

666
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: or goats in the fall, went down to his village

667
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: and gotten an altercation with somebody, cut his hand.

668
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 2: You're looking at my wife, right, that kind of thing.

669
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: That's nice, and he fled or oh, and part of

670
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: the altercation also resulted in some cracked ribs, right, and

671
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 1: either fled or laughter escaped up the mountain again where

672
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: he became exhausted from his cracked ribs and his cut hand,

673
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: and he laid down or fell into this little shallow

674
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: crevasse and died of exposure to hypothermia. That was the

675
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: disaster theory, and that was that, you know, I mean

676
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 1: they had that for a few years, and somebody came

677
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 1: along and said, I don't think that's right.

678
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 2: That's right, because they found out some of the things,

679
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 2: like the site had melted some and then things were

680
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 2: in different positions they originally thought. Probably they examined the

681
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 2: ribs again and said they were actually not fractured before

682
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 2: he died.

683
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:51,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, that they were just a little bent.

684
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, from like after his death.

685
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: Probably from the push of ice, the pressure from ice

686
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: feezing on him.

687
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 2: Again exactly'll that'll crack your ribs in a second, or

688
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 2: binga ribs.

689
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 1: The big one, though, was what they found in the

690
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: X ray in two thousand and one.

691
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 2: Right, you know what they found? Should we take a break?

692
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, all right, we'll discover what they found right

693
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 2: after this.

694
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: Where did they find Chuck?

695
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: They found a freaking arrowhead lodged in his shoulder, back shoulder.

696
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 1: That was a verbatim quote from the press conference. This

697
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:45,439
Speaker 1: was a big deal.

698
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 2: They missed it for ten years, they missed the thing,

699
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,240
Speaker 2: and they found it. Yeah, it was just a regular

700
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 2: X ray and they said, wait a minute, that looks

701
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 2: denser than bone. Yeah, what is that.

702
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 1: It's a triangle.

703
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 2: It's a triangle. And it was a thirteen millimeter gash

704
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 2: along a major artery in his chest. And they're like,

705
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 2: he bled to death up there.

706
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, they said, there's no way he would have survived this.

707
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: It is unhealed. This is finally what killed him. So

708
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 1: this disaster theory that he got in an altercation but

709
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: ultimately died of exposure or hypothermia was replaced by the

710
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 1: murder theory, right, which is very similar, but there's some

711
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: important nuances and differences. One, so the cracked rib thing

712
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 1: just throw that away. It was a red herring, but

713
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: the altercation is still the same. He comes down the mountain,

714
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 1: he gets in a fight of some sort, goes back

715
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: up the mountain with his cut hand, and while he's

716
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: hanging out, maybe tending to his wound, maybe trying to

717
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: figure out what to do next. That's my arrow impression.

718
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 2: Message for you, sir.

719
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right in the back, in the back from

720
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 1: a distance, they think due to the penetration from the

721
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: arrowhead from about thirty meters.

722
00:36:59,239 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good shot.

723
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: Ye, that is it is a good shot because it

724
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 1: was a kill shot from thirty meters one hundred and

725
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: fifty feet. That's a waste. Yeah, I can't quite put

726
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: it into an easy analogy, but that's a long that's

727
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: a long way. Yeah. And the fact that it was

728
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 1: in the back. He never saw it coming and it

729
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: would have killed him pretty quickly.

730
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 2: It was a punk move, is what it was. It was.

731
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: Here's the thing, because his possessions were left intact and

732
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: because he had that defensive wound.

733
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, they think that this was.

734
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: The result of his death, as murder was the result

735
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 1: of a personal conflict. There was no theft involved or

736
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,399
Speaker 1: anything like that, right, because his copper axe alone would

737
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: have been pretty valuable at the time that somebody would

738
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: have taken it had they killed him for something like robbery.

739
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this was a vendetta, yes, or it released

740
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 2: a personal fight that happened that day, yeah, or maybe

741
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:52,919
Speaker 2: a long standing feud. There's no way to tell.

742
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: Here. We reached the point where the historians and the

743
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: archaeologists are like, we really can't say, but here are

744
00:37:58,440 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: some ideas.

745
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

746
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 1: For me, it's either the person who he fought came

747
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,399
Speaker 1: back for revenge. I think, and this is a total guest,

748
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: but I was trained in history, so I'm allowed to

749
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: do that.

750
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 2: Sure he was trained in history.

751
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. I studied history in college. That's what

752
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: they call it. They're like, this is how you do it,

753
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: trained history camp. Right. He was successful in that hand

754
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: to hand combat and killed the other person. Whether it

755
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,839
Speaker 1: was offensive or defensive. I like to think it was defensive.

756
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: He didn't have a choice. But the person's family came

757
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: back and killed him up on the mountain, gotcha. That's

758
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: the current idea. Well, not that last part that it

759
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: was his family, but what I said leading up to that,

760
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 1: everything about that, everything else about that I'm really sorry,

761
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: Chris Christofferson. That's the current idea of what happened to it.

762
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 2: I think. So you're not going with my jealous lover theory.

763
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: No, okay, no, I'm not all right.

764
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 2: I think it was a woman with that arrow.

765
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:05,399
Speaker 1: You think the woman a woman shot him?

766
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, jealous lover. I think he was stepping out and

767
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:10,439
Speaker 2: he was like holding up his hands like baby, baby,

768
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 2: it wouldn't me. And she slices them with the her

769
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: implement of choice and then dice ism with the era

770
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 2: and then he's like, this is getting too serious. You're crazy,

771
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 2: and so he heads up the mountains and she's like,

772
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,919
Speaker 2: I'll show you crazy. She turns into close, she goes

773
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 2: and forges an arrow, and then in that time it

774
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: took her to forge that arrow from hardened molten you know, flint.

775
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 1: Flint shirt chirt.

776
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 2: He's up that hill a little bit and she's like,

777
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,439
Speaker 2: no problem, watch this right in the back.

778
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,800
Speaker 1: I like that one too, all right. I'm going with family, family,

779
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: because I mean, yeah, you know the rule, can't trust family,

780
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:52,760
Speaker 1: trust family.

781
00:39:54,000 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 2: So, speaking of that chirt, he did not have he

782
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:01,240
Speaker 2: didn't have blanks.

783
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is evidence that he didn't know how

784
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 1: to create his own tools.

785
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, somebody applicate these tools, which apparently were sort of

786
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 2: on their last legs.

787
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was another thing too, So he did not

788
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: have what he needed. Like imagine if you had if

789
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: you had like a a tool an X no, a knife, okay,

790
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,399
Speaker 1: and it's made a flint and you use it over

791
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,359
Speaker 1: and over and over again, it's gonna get worn down

792
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: and eventually it's gonna get so worn down that you

793
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: just can't use it anymore. This is essentially the state

794
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: of his arrowheads and his knife and some of his

795
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: other his stone tools. In particular, that he was not

796
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 1: in a position to defend himself with his own tools

797
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: because he'd used them up.

798
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 2: And I wonder if if he's not making these in

799
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 2: the village, if they're like Ertsy's, you know, he's have

800
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 2: you guys noticed he's on the way out, Like, we're

801
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 2: not going to be making any more tools for Artsy, right, yeah,

802
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 2: I can. We don't have He'll just make do with

803
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 2: what he's got.

804
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 1: It's a but he owes me money.

805
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 2: So should we talk about moss. This was astounding to

806
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 2: me that this happened in the last few days, because

807
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 2: did you pick this out before this happened, or was

808
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 2: it serenigity?

809
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 1: This is what I saw that it made me say

810
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:18,399
Speaker 1: it's time.

811
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 2: Okay, I got you. So researchers found these moth spores

812
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 2: that were inside of him, that he'd ingested, and just

813
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 2: on him and around him. M hm. Seventy percent of

814
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,879
Speaker 2: the seventy five species of these mosses and liverwarts were

815
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 2: not local. And they basically said, there's no way these

816
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 2: would have been on the side of the mountain if

817
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 2: not for him.

818
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,879
Speaker 1: Right like a bird couldn't have transported it this far

819
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 1: or something like that, like the UTSI brought these up here.

820
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 1: And so in doing that and tracing like these mosses

821
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: and spores and everything, they have a big clue. They've

822
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: been able to retrace his steps that last basically thirty

823
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,760
Speaker 1: three hours of his life, the last day and a half,

824
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: and it was not a great day and a half

825
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 1: for him. He had his hand wound. By now, by

826
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 1: the time we're coming in here, he's already got his

827
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: hand wound. It's got to be smarting. And it's a

828
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: real problem for him too, because even if he could

829
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: make tools, he would have been really troubled to do

830
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: anything because he was right handed and that's where his wound,

831
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: almost down to the bone was was in his right hand. Yeah,

832
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: so that's a big problem for him right there.

833
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. So what they found in this lower colon, which

834
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 2: would have been the last I'm sorry, the oldest stuff

835
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 2: that he had eaten that has not yet been the

836
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 2: turtle head yet, not turtle headed yet or I guess

837
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 2: currently turtle headed. Yeah, were pine and spruce pollen, so

838
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 2: they said, And it's kind of neat. That's what I

839
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 2: love about this, like historical forensics, like, oh, well, we

840
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 2: know what was in his body, and we know where

841
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 2: that stuff is. It's not at certain altitudes. It was

842
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 2: a high altitude for us, around eighty two hundred feet

843
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 2: and they know because of where it was in his body.

844
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: This is thirty three hours before he died. But the

845
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 2: middle tract of his colon, that's where all the secrets are.

846
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 2: In the colon. Yeah, you know, it had pollen from

847
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 2: hop hornbeam and that's stuff from lower altitudes.

848
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: It's from lower altitude. But also it grows only in

849
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: the spring and summer. It decays very quickly, so it's

850
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 1: not something that you would preserve and keep for the

851
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 1: fall or the winter.

852
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:29,320
Speaker 2: Throw out the autumn theory.

853
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: Yep, So they say he definitely died in the summer,

854
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 1: right and spring.

855
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 2: I guess that means that he probably descended maybe all

856
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 2: the way to the bottom of the valley within twelve hours,

857
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 2: maybe nine to twelve hours of his death, and then

858
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 2: all the way back up again.

859
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: Right where he was found dead. And they figured all

860
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: this out. They retraced all this just from those spores

861
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 1: and mosses.

862
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:51,919
Speaker 2: Amazing, they think.

863
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: Maybe so he's down in the valley to begin with,

864
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: or in the village, gets that hand wound, flees up

865
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: to the tree line, and then they think.

866
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 2: Because he's like the little lady always needs a few

867
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 2: days to cool off.

868
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: Right, Oh man, you're gonna get some meal for that one.

869
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: I rechecked my right by the way. So and then

870
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: he goes back down, they think, to get some mosses

871
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: because they have anti bacterial properties.

872
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can also wrap meat in it, right apparently.

873
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: To I guess, keep it or whatever. But also they

874
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 1: may he may have wrapped his hand in it or

875
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 1: something as well.

876
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 2: Or maybe when he saw a doctor.

877
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: Maybe then he goes back up to the tree to

878
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: above the tree line where he dies at about ten

879
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: five hundred feet. That's along the way he had that

880
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 1: last meal of ibis and deer and bread and slow plums.

881
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 2: Pretty good meal, not bad.

882
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: I wonder if he was panicked, if he knew like,

883
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: I'm in a bad way because of this cut on

884
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: my hand, and my tools and arrow heads are not

885
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 1: in good shape.

886
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 2: I don't know, because it's interesting you only know that

887
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 2: stuff from seeing it at that point in history, Like

888
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 2: it would have been like, boy, I've seen that kind

889
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 2: of wound before on oh yeah, tuck, tuck, And yeah,

890
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 2: he did not last long.

891
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 1: But if you've thought somebody was coming after you, and

892
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 1: you knew that your arrowhead was useless and your knife

893
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: was like dull and your your stab in hand was

894
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: cut to the bone, right, you probably wouldn't have had

895
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: to have seen that before to be.

896
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,240
Speaker 2: Like, uh probably so well, he was in full retreat

897
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 2: from what it looks like, right, Yeah, I mean that's

898
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 2: why he was going up.

899
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 1: That Mountain's that's what most people guess.

900
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he was probably scared.

901
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is sad, but that's how he spent this

902
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 1: last day and a half kind of on the run

903
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 1: up and down the mountain, which is pretty impressive that

904
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: he was able to make. You know, he went up

905
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:41,479
Speaker 1: and down the mountain, don't for sure. He was wearing

906
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 1: moccas and stuff with grass.

907
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 2: And he was old for the time.

908
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 1: Sure, and he had ginger vitis.

909
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 2: Kind of a neat thing is they have found they

910
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 2: found some weird markers on his male sex chromosomes and

911
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 2: they've actually traced some genetic relatives at least nineteen people

912
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 2: living today, yeah in Austria or.

913
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: Not married but related to Utsy.

914
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Pretty neat.

915
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so too. So check. There's another theory

916
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: that says, hey, you know, your whole murder theory it's bs.

917
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 1: Maybe the murder part is correct, but he was murdered ritually.

918
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: This isn't a vendette or anything like that. Utsie was buried.

919
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 2: Right, They think that this was a ritual burial on

920
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 2: top of a mountain, but he you know, it's not

921
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 2: the kind of Maybe they just want a group that

922
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 2: removed the organs and did that stuff, right.

923
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the premise of the burial theory, called the

924
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: social theory, is that he's not a snapshot of everyday life, right,

925
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: that they didn't that he would have been so heavily

926
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:43,879
Speaker 1: laden with all of this stuff because we didn't even

927
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: say he had a bow and arrow, yeahvert a knife,

928
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: a hatchet. He was wearing moccasins with grass, and they're

929
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 1: kind of like, seriously, that's the best they could do

930
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 1: at this time for hiking a mountain. That's the shoes

931
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,439
Speaker 1: you wore, Like, those aren't mountain hiking shoes at any

932
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 1: point in his And the fact that the shaft of

933
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 1: the arrow was removed, I think they point to is

934
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: an example of the idea that he was buried, that

935
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 1: he was killed ritually and buried in this.

936
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 2: Oh so they think the killing was a ritual killing too,

937
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 2: a sacrificial killing. Yeah, oh I didn't get that part.

938
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: And the other thing is they're saying, like this stuff,

939
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: these fancy Alexander McQueen leggings that he wore that were

940
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: basically the predecessor of later hosen, that is some pretty

941
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: nice stuff for a simple like sheep herder? Is it

942
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: to be wearing? That's this is what the social theory

943
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: people are saying. Yeah, they're like, we think this guy

944
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: was actually kind of important and that he was buried

945
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 1: here as a sign a symbol, and what they found,

946
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 1: or what they point to is that there's stella like

947
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 1: monolists that were carved in the Lake copper Age a

948
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: thousand or two thousand years after Utsi because he was

949
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 1: born at the beginning of the Copper Age, that our

950
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 1: depictions of somebody dressed a lot like Utzy and they

951
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: think that these are like heroes and legends, ancestors, and

952
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: they're saying, this guy's wearing what these people were carving

953
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 1: images of a thousand years later. Maybe he was kind

954
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: of important and maybe this is a bit.

955
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 2: He also had some ornamentation too, didn't he Yeah, like

956
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 2: a marble bead, Yeah, which you know could mean something

957
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 2: or could not.

958
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 1: But the fact that he had so much stuff with

959
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 1: him does kind of support the idea that maybe it

960
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: was a burial and then they.

961
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 2: Just send him into the afterlife with all the things

962
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 2: he would need.

963
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 1: Right exactly. And then the other one is no one's

964
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: ever explained how he was so well preserved that apparently

965
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:46,359
Speaker 1: being frozen by ice doesn't cut it. Oh really, Yeah,

966
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:50,720
Speaker 1: that other people have been found who died far later

967
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 1: and were in way worse states of decay than Utsie was.

968
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 2: But they found no like chemical preservation, no evidence or anything.

969
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: No, And admittedly sides, if either one of them are

970
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 1: being honest, they will say, we don't know how much

971
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 1: he was this well preserved quite a mystery still to

972
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 1: this day. As much as we know about him, he

973
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,720
Speaker 1: is still a mystery. He's our love and mystery man.

974
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 2: That's right.

975
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about let's see, go

976
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 1: type Otzi in your favorite search bar and it will

977
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,320
Speaker 1: bring up some fascinating stuff. And since I said that,

978
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 1: time for listener.

979
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 2: Man, I'm gonna call this the accidental iron Man. Hey, guys,

980
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 2: big fan for a long time. I accidentally did my

981
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 2: first iron Man in July twenty eighteen. And you might think,

982
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 2: how in the world would that happen?

983
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:43,760
Speaker 1: I was thinking exactly, here's how that happens.

984
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 2: I've been doing triathlon since twenty fifteen, always planned on

985
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 2: doing an iron Man at one point or at some point.

986
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 2: My plan was to do a half iron Man in

987
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, do the full thing in twenty nineteen. I

988
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 2: wanted to do the Iron Man like Placid, since it's

989
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,800
Speaker 2: reasonably close and as a lake swim as opposed to

990
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 2: river or in ocean swim. That's a hard race. To

991
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 2: get into though, because it sells out so fast. I

992
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 2: got an email told me registration was open, and in

993
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 2: my excitement I misread it and thought it was for

994
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 2: the half, so I signed up and realized after the

995
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 2: fact that it was the entire one hundred and forty

996
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 2: point six race and not the seventy point three. Triathlons

997
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 2: don't do refunds, so I paid my eight hundred dollars

998
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 2: plus entry fee and couldn't get it back. I could

999
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 2: have deferred for a year, but it's decided just to

1000
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,720
Speaker 2: go for it. And I finished the race in fifteen hours,

1001
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 2: two minutes and forty three seconds. Nice work, and that

1002
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 2: is from John Patanyak. And I email John Backen It's like,

1003
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 2: you want to give me a couple of little tidbits

1004
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 2: here for listener mail, and he said sure, and he

1005
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 2: wrote back and he said, one thing I can say

1006
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 2: is it really takes over your personal life. At my peak,

1007
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 2: I was training twenty hours a week. And he said

1008
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 2: that is literally just pool, bike or running. He said,

1009
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 2: doesn't count travel to and from the gym, cooking meals,

1010
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 2: prepping equipment. He said, it's literally like a part time job.

1011
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 2: And he said the race was a lot of fun.

1012
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 2: He said. The Lake Placid course goes through the old

1013
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 2: Olympic structures from the nineteen eighty Olympics, and you finish

1014
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 2: at the finish line and the speed skating oval. Oh,

1015
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 2: that's nat Yeah, it's pretty cool. He cine picture.

1016
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: It's like urban exploration Iron Range.

1017
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 2: And he said. One of the cool things they do

1018
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 2: if your first timer is you wear an orange wristband

1019
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 2: so all the volunteers and crowd will give you extra

1020
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 2: support and it says I will become one on it.

1021
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,359
Speaker 2: And he said, it really works. And he said, and

1022
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 2: finally at the end, the race is so meaningful to

1023
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 2: so many people. Everyone has their own story. But almost

1024
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 2: nothing is better after a year of training than hearing

1025
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:41,919
Speaker 2: you are iron Man. When he crossed the finish line.

1026
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: That's awesome. They have Ozzie singing it. I would I

1027
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 1: would too.

1028
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 2: Who else I don't know.

1029
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 1: I guess theo could again.

1030
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:54,439
Speaker 2: That is John Potoniac. Dio is dead, Oh is he? Yeah,

1031
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 2: Ronnie James Dio's passed on. When within the last couple

1032
00:51:58,320 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 2: of years.

1033
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, one of the coolest tattoos I've ever seen.

1034
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: Somebody got like on their arm, their forearm. I have

1035
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 1: seen that, so that when they make like the devil

1036
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: horns or whatever, it's Ronnie Dio making the devil horns

1037
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 1: and the person's.

1038
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 2: Fingers comes your arms. Yeah, it's really neat.

1039
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 1: It is.

1040
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 2: I saw that and I thought, man, that's the coolest

1041
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 2: tattoo I've ever seen.

1042
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 1: I think it might be. It's pretty Hats off to

1043
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 1: Chris Christofferson's manager, who actually is the person with that that?

1044
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:29,919
Speaker 2: That's right?

1045
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:32,879
Speaker 1: Uh. If you want to get in touch with us,

1046
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 1: like who is that?

1047
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 2: John Patoniac?

1048
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 1: Thanks John? If you want to get in touch with

1049
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 1: us like John, congratulations too. You can go on to

1050
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know and check out our social links.

1051
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 1: You can also send us an email to stuff podcast

1052
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 1: at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a

1053
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

1054
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:55,280
Speaker 2: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1055
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.