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Speaker 1: Ah, beaute force. If it doesn't work, you're just not

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Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to Software Radio Special Operations, Military

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Speaker 1: news and straight talk with the guys and the community

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Speaker 1: Software Radio on Time on Target. Uh. Excited to be

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Speaker 1: here and actually this is the first show. We've been

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Speaker 1: back since last week seeing your wife's new film I

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Speaker 1: Am the Revolution, the premiere, which I was truly blown

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Speaker 1: away by, and I mean everything about it. The fact

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Speaker 1: that it was an all female staff making film, between

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Speaker 1: the producer, the you know, the people who were editing,

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Speaker 1: with everybody involved. And she spent about two years working

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Speaker 1: on that movie. Um. It was just a long process, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, traveling to Iraq. She was in dag Dad,

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Speaker 1: and she was in Northern Syria. UM. And then she

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Speaker 1: was in Afghanistan. And then that's kind of just the

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Speaker 1: filming part is really just the beginning. After that, there's

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Speaker 1: so much I mean, just like doing the subtitles in

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Speaker 1: three different language. UM. And that's why I think films

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Speaker 1: like that are are rarely even attempted. Um that are

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Speaker 1: that are that cross cultural in nature? UM. But no,

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Speaker 1: it was it was a good day. It was an

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Speaker 1: interesting day that you know, the film premiered in a

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Speaker 1: movie theater and Chelsea and like a full sized theater

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Speaker 1: and it was packed. Yeah, myself, my wife and Leiah

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Speaker 1: who um did some of the camera work on the film.

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Speaker 1: We were all on the same subway heading there, although

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Speaker 1: we didn't know we were on the same subway. And Uh,

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Speaker 1: the girl sitting on this on the on the car

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Speaker 1: I was on, passed out in her seat and I

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Speaker 1: looked over and she's just like like turning green, falling

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Speaker 1: out of the seat. So of course they like stop

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Speaker 1: the subway, shut it down, called the E M T S.

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Speaker 1: Like maybe the girl just smoked too much wacky weed

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Speaker 1: or something. I don't know. Um. So and this was

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Speaker 1: the day that it's snowed like and in November. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so like end, I didn't know that Benny and

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Speaker 1: Leah were on the train. So like we independently of

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Speaker 1: one another, walked from fourteenth Street up to like h

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Speaker 1: or something like that through the snow and uh and

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Speaker 1: saw the movie. Um, and it went really well. I

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Speaker 1: think it was really well received. Um. It was my

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Speaker 1: first time seeing the final cut. I had seen it

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Speaker 1: in uh in the editing process in Italy over the

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Speaker 1: summer when it was like ninety five percent done. Maybe

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Speaker 1: they had still had to finalize the coloring, UM, the

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Speaker 1: soundtrack and UM. Because the coloring hadn't been finished yet,

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Speaker 1: the subtitles couldn't be added yet. So I didn't all

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Speaker 1: the parts that are in dory uh in Arabic, I

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Speaker 1: have had no idea what they're saying. So this is

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Speaker 1: my first time seeing the completed film. Um, it was amazing.

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Speaker 1: I mean just some of the footage they got it

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Speaker 1: is just so surreal. Yeah, I agree, And I think

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Speaker 1: it opens up just a window to people that they've

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Speaker 1: never seen this as in depth from the perspective of

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Speaker 1: these women. I think people in America who see this

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Speaker 1: film are going to really get behind those you know,

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Speaker 1: who are fighting ice and all that. The thing that

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Speaker 1: that actually I think might be strange for Americans watching

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Speaker 1: the film is how like the making sure I'm getting

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Speaker 1: these right, the YPJ and the yp G. The YPJ

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Speaker 1: is the female militia and YPG is the male militia.

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Speaker 1: But amongst the Kurds the kind of idealization of communism

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Speaker 1: and all that which they're they're very vocal about. I

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Speaker 1: think that might be foreig into all it's a little complicated. Um.

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Speaker 1: They they're not really communist anymore. Um, they've kind of

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Speaker 1: evolved out of that starting in the nine nineties UM

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Speaker 1: to a system called democratic confederalism. Are done the west.

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Speaker 1: You see the hammer and sickles, so you know you

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Speaker 1: know who that was, because you're right in the film

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Speaker 1: when they have there's a big martyrs funeral UM at

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Speaker 1: one of the points. So as my wife was was

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Speaker 1: going into Syria, crossing the border in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the night, Um, the Turks came in and started doing

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Speaker 1: air strikes at this base called derek Um. And the

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Speaker 1: base is actually a base that Benny and I had

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Speaker 1: stayed on the first time we were in Syria when

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Speaker 1: we got smuggled in. And so the Turks came in

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Speaker 1: and bombed that base and killed a bunch of people.

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Speaker 1: And so while Benny was in Syrious, she went to

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Speaker 1: the martyr's funeral and it was huge, and like you

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Speaker 1: saw you point out that there's the guys wearing the

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Speaker 1: Ski masks and they have the hammer and sickle flag.

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Speaker 1: So those are not Kurds, those are European communists who

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Speaker 1: came to join up. UM. Because I even saw a

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Speaker 1: sign that said I think no U S occupation in

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Speaker 1: Iraq if that, if you saw that, I would say

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Speaker 1: that's probably also uh, European Communists, the Marxist Leninist Party

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Speaker 1: from Germany sent a lot of people over UM, other

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Speaker 1: Italian in Spanish, UM, even British Marxists and anarchists. See.

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Speaker 1: That would have been interesting to point out because I

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Speaker 1: just saw it. As you know, the film was centered

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Speaker 1: around the YPG, the YPG, and then I saw all

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Speaker 1: these people at the Marty Streen role and I assumed,

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Speaker 1: all right, they're all in one group, and it's a

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Speaker 1: little bit strange to us. But and I know that

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Speaker 1: those groups, you know, they're definitely not UH for capitalism

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Speaker 1: or like definitely an American system. So it wasn't strange.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't as strange to me to see that. But

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Speaker 1: I had no idea what you're saying. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: these are kind kind of the nuances and it it's

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Speaker 1: definitely interesting to see. I mean these groups feel uh.

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Speaker 1: I think that the European communists and anarchists have this

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Speaker 1: affinity for the koords um they like in it and

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Speaker 1: the way they see it as sort of like the

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Speaker 1: International Brigade during the Spanish Civil War um or something.

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Speaker 1: Maybe some of the other anti fascist movements and amongst

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Speaker 1: Western anarchists. Uh, there is even a an effort to

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Speaker 1: rebrand the war. I mean we talked about this with

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Speaker 1: Benny on the podcast and once. Uh. In my opinion,

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Speaker 1: they're really trying to rebrand it as an anti fascist war,

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Speaker 1: even though they're fighting jihadism. Um, they're branding it as

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Speaker 1: anti fascism. Now. It's very interesting, Like, so you're telling

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Speaker 1: me that the Americans Special Forces soldiers in Syria are

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Speaker 1: fighting fascism? Are they that anti fascist army? Are our

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Speaker 1: Green Berets antifa? Now? Like, like these are the kind

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Speaker 1: of like there's dueling narratives, um, and picking through them

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Speaker 1: and trying to unpack all of them is incredibly complicated.

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Speaker 1: One of the interesting things too about the film for

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Speaker 1: me was that people will realize the label of feminism

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Speaker 1: has a very different meaning I think in the Middle

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Speaker 1: Eastern here. Um. I think if you don't label yourself

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Speaker 1: a feminist in America, it doesn't normally mean that you're

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Speaker 1: against basic human rights for all and over there are

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Speaker 1: it truly? I mean, it's it's a life and death fight. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: these are women being killed in honor killings and um,

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Speaker 1: you know, sexual assaults that are rampant and you know,

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Speaker 1: being ignored. If I was over there, consider myself feminist

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Speaker 1: and I'm one erstan on the side of these women

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Speaker 1: that any documented. Yeah, I mean the film is interesting

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Speaker 1: in that regard because it's a type of feminism that

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Speaker 1: I think regular bros like me or you can relate

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Speaker 1: to and get behind um quite easily. Um, you can

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Speaker 1: empathize with these women and what they're going through. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's there's absolutely a legitimate form of feminism in the

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Speaker 1: Western world, in America, in Europe wherever. Um, just like

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Speaker 1: anything else, though the meaning has got right. And if

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Speaker 1: we we have this third wave feminism where it's like

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Speaker 1: these hippie girls with purple hair trying to language police

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Speaker 1: sauce and complaining that the air conditioning is the patriarchy

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Speaker 1: and like all this weird ship. And to be fair,

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Speaker 1: it's like that with everything. If you know, people who

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Speaker 1: labeled themselves a conservative will go from everything to people

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Speaker 1: strictly believe in the constitution, to these people in the

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Speaker 1: alt rights you want like a fascist state. It's completely

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Speaker 1: different things. And in the Middle East, Uh, feminism takes

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Speaker 1: a very different form. I mean, like you said, these

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Speaker 1: women are fighting for basic human rights, but we would

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Speaker 1: regard as basic human rights. Uh. You know, they're everything

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Speaker 1: from the right to vote, the right to participate in

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Speaker 1: their society and not be a second class citizen too.

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Speaker 1: Just the right to not be fucking gang raped by

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Speaker 1: your cousins or murdered by your father because there's a

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Speaker 1: rumor that you talked to a boy. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: fucking insane. Um. So yeah, I mean the film definitely

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Speaker 1: extricts a very different chord. Um. Then maybe some of

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Speaker 1: the conversations were used to having in the West. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I uh. I was at a dinner party not that

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Speaker 1: long ago with a university professor and he was pointing

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Speaker 1: out He's like, you know, we we say these things

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Speaker 1: about how hard it is for women in the Middle East,

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Speaker 1: but maybe we shouldn't get out our high horse. I mean,

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Speaker 1: America has the largest pornography industry in the world. America

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Speaker 1: is just a really vile place for women to live. Like,

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Speaker 1: are you fucking kidding me? Are you telling me that

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Speaker 1: those women who live in South Sudan have it easy

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Speaker 1: compared to American women? Like, what are you really trying

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Speaker 1: to set here. I mean, I think it's such a

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Speaker 1: bullshit false equivalency to make. And it's not like I said.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's all legitimate feminist movement in the United States,

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Speaker 1: and um, you know, we should keep speaking out and

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Speaker 1: fighting against you know, rapes, sexual assaults, discrimination, all these

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Speaker 1: things that exist. But get the funk out of here.

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Speaker 1: I mean, being a being a woman in America is

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Speaker 1: not the same as being a woman in Saudi Arabia.

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Speaker 1: I mean, let's be realistic. Yeah, absolutely not. The thing

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Speaker 1: that I really hope is that the film She's the

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Speaker 1: light of day for most people, because I posted a

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Speaker 1: picture up with Benny and actually some of our listeners,

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Speaker 1: who are you know, just on my own page are like,

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Speaker 1: oh awesome, when do I get to see this? And

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Speaker 1: I was tagging Benny. I'm like, let them know, and

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Speaker 1: and Benny unfortunately to say, I really don't know. I

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Speaker 1: don't know where this film is going to go. And

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Speaker 1: I would think, especially like in this environment right now,

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Speaker 1: with so much interest in women's rights movements as well

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Speaker 1: as to see what's really going on in the Middle East,

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Speaker 1: I would think that Netflix would pick this up in

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Speaker 1: a second it's a great film, and I really hope

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Speaker 1: that somebody will. I think there should be completely honest,

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Speaker 1: and I've told Benny this, and I think that it's

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Speaker 1: absolutely a worthwhile project that she worked on. But um, commercially,

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Speaker 1: it's a difficult project for an American market. As Americans,

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Speaker 1: we like to see films about Americans, UM in English, right,

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Speaker 1: so making a film about these foreign women, I mean

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Speaker 1: they're there, their cultures are fairly alien to most Americans.

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Speaker 1: You know, I raged a full lot al Y p J.

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Speaker 1: Commander in Syria, like, holy sh it. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: an amazing story, but it's UM. It could be difficult

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Speaker 1: for American audiences to wrap their mind around. UM. But hopefully,

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Speaker 1: you know, we get some kind of distribution for the film,

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Speaker 1: and I mean, reach out to Benny if you know

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Speaker 1: you're distributor you're interested in uh and putting it out there.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I remember her last film was um Our War,

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Speaker 1: and people asked us over and over again, where can

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Speaker 1: I see the film? Where can I see the film?

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Speaker 1: And now you can go see it on Amazon. It's

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Speaker 1: about it profiles three foreign fighters who went to go

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Speaker 1: fight in Syria. UM. But it took a long time

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Speaker 1: to get to that point and get the distribution everything

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Speaker 1: lined up. So hopefully, UM, they get something going with

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Speaker 1: this film fairly quickly. You know what's so crazy to

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Speaker 1: me though, is that there's been this movement in America

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Speaker 1: of you know, there are not enough women nominated for Oscars,

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Speaker 1: there are not enough female leading ladies, there's not enough

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Speaker 1: female directors, and a lot of times when we're talking

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Speaker 1: about women who are leading roles in Hollywood films, we're like,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about millionaires, and it's hard for me to

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Speaker 1: really get behind. These people are oppressed. You know, they're

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Speaker 1: they're not getting paid as much as like Sean Connery,

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Speaker 1: but they're still getting paid millions. And to me, it

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Speaker 1: actually is a shame that a that a film spotlighting females, directed, produced, edited,

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Speaker 1: everything by females. That's something that people should be fighting

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Speaker 1: for to see the way to day because Benny and

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Speaker 1: her friends who worked on this film are are not

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Speaker 1: Hollywood millionaires. Yeah. Well, you know what what I noticed

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Speaker 1: and what I observed from my own work, um doing

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Speaker 1: with uh, particularly with sexual assault stories, UM, and also

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Speaker 1: with war crime stories, as we're probably gonna get into

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Speaker 1: a little bit here, UM, everybody talks a good talk.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of virtue signaling, especially with the Me

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Speaker 1: Too movement and everything. Lots and lots of virtue signaling. Um,

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Speaker 1: a lot of good talk, but when it comes time

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Speaker 1: to say or do anything meaningful, you will see people

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Speaker 1: scatter and disappear, like people will be out the door,

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Speaker 1: ever seen or heard from again anytime you have to

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Speaker 1: confront these difficult issues. People talk a good talk when

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Speaker 1: it's the virtue signaling on Twitter, but when it comes

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Speaker 1: time to really be a man or really be a

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Speaker 1: woman when it really counts and stand up against these

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Speaker 1: kinds of things, um, people disappear quick Yeah. Um, So

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Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily surprised that, you know, the film industry

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Speaker 1: wants to talk a good talk, but you know, when

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Speaker 1: it comes time to support you know, these types of

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Speaker 1: films are are they gonna step up? I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I would love to see someone do it and put

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Speaker 1: the money behind this film because everybody needs to see

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Speaker 1: it in my opinion. Uh, moving on to what you

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Speaker 1: were just talking about in terms of assault. Uh, we

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Speaker 1: got an update basically, I think right after we recorded

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Speaker 1: the last show that in the Murder of Logan Melger

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Speaker 1: uh who was a Green Beret. Two Navy seals and

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Speaker 1: two Marines have now been charged. Yeah. Um So I

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Speaker 1: wrote a update to that story a um that's up

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Speaker 1: on the website. People ask me about it every week, like,

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Speaker 1: what what's going on, what's going on? What's going on?

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Speaker 1: Um So, the investigation on the two seals was completed,

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Speaker 1: the two Seal Team six operators, and charges have been

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Speaker 1: formally filed against them, so we know it's going to

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Speaker 1: court martial. Um. And they're being charged with I believe

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Speaker 1: on the charge sheet it's uh, it's felony murder, obstruction

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Speaker 1: of justice, and a handful of lesser charges. Um. So,

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Speaker 1: they're being charged with the murder of Logan Melgar and

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Speaker 1: they're also being charged with the cover up that they

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Speaker 1: tried to cover up the crime itself. Um And the

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Speaker 1: two Marsock operators have been dragged into this case, and

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Speaker 1: it appears that they may have played a role um

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Speaker 1: in in collusion. I guess you could say that they

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Speaker 1: knew things, that they were present when the when the

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Speaker 1: killing happened, and they didn't do anything. Did we know

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Speaker 1: about them originally? Because I feel like when the story

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Speaker 1: first came out and talked about UM. So I wrote

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Speaker 1: the update to the story. UM. Uh. Sergeant Melgar's widow,

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Speaker 1: UM gave us a quote about where she stands on

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Speaker 1: the on the matter. UM. And what did she say?

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Speaker 1: Basically that she I don't have the quote in front

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Speaker 1: of me and go see the story to read exactly,

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Speaker 1: but she's saying, you know, I fully support so Calm

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Speaker 1: and the prosecutors UM, and you know we're moving forward

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Speaker 1: with this, and you know she's she's not going to

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Speaker 1: back down for sure, UM. But she wanted to also

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Speaker 1: express her gratitude to UM, the Special Operations Command UM,

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Speaker 1: who she feels have really supported her and her family

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Speaker 1: through this whole ordeal. So it's the news rep dot com.

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Speaker 1: You have an article, yeah, UM, all right, Well, I

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Speaker 1: mean it's it's an important subject. I'm glad we have

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Speaker 1: at least an update on on what happened, although it's

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Speaker 1: extremely unfortunate what happened. UM. I have one email here

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Speaker 1: from Josh sent to SOFTWAREP dot Radio. It's off rep

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Speaker 1: dot com. I have a bunch of other emails, but

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Speaker 1: we get a lot of guests, suggestions and that type

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Speaker 1: of thing. So I I read those. Don't think I don't, um,

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Speaker 1: but just not an error. I you know, I taking

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Speaker 1: my keep in mind and see who we're getting on.

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Speaker 1: But right now we're like booked up until the end

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Speaker 1: of the year, so hopefully some interesting people for January.

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Speaker 1: Podcast is a hot item now it is. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: also gonna be away for one week, so that's part

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Speaker 1: of it. Um. But anyway, this is from Josh h.

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Speaker 1: Josh here, paramedic and Fort Worth, Texas. Not a veteran,

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Speaker 1: but I've been a SOFTWAUP radio fan for many years.

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Speaker 1: My question may sound a bit quote veteran voyeuristic, but

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Speaker 1: it's something I'm curious about. The question is to all

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Speaker 1: combat vets, and it may be a painful one and

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Speaker 1: your experience. Is it more difficult to lose a friend, teammate,

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Speaker 1: or comrade when you were a witness to the kia

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Speaker 1: or at least a participant in the relating action, or

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Speaker 1: is it more haunting when you lose someone close and

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Speaker 1: just have to hear about it. To give the background

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Speaker 1: that frames the question, I lost my dad, who I

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Speaker 1: was very too, to a heart attack nearly five years

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Speaker 1: ago at only fifty four, while while I was across

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Speaker 1: the state. My brother was president, though on his second

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Speaker 1: army week leave from Afghanistan, UH nineteen delta CAV scout

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Speaker 1: with no other medical experience than the standard combat lifesaver

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Speaker 1: course in basic training, he found him and had to

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Speaker 1: perform CPR until E. M. S arrived. He called me immediately,

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Speaker 1: of course, and I always wondered how the differing experience

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Speaker 1: have affected us personally anyway, Thank you for education, for

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Speaker 1: educational and entertaining experiences you provide at Software Radio and

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Speaker 1: News Rep. Keep up the good work. So interesting question. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean there's no real answer to it either. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've never had a teammate like dying in my arms,

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Speaker 1: so I don't know that I can really speak to that. Um.

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Speaker 1: What about what about you know, like dying? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course. UM. I mean I think it it hits

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Speaker 1: everybody differently. Uh. And that's the thing about like PTSD,

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Speaker 1: is it affects people differently. Um. I think we've talked

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Speaker 1: about on this podcast before. I mean some people people too,

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Speaker 1: people who experience basically the same thing, but the way

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Speaker 1: they experience and the way they process that it can

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Speaker 1: be very different. Um. So I mean, I I don't know,

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Speaker 1: there's no way like he's asking me to like kind

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Speaker 1: of quantify how that pain hits you and which is worse.

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Speaker 1: And I mean it's impossible to do, I think, because

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Speaker 1: it's it's a personal experience. But I mean, surely you know,

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Speaker 1: losing a close friend or a family member, having them

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Speaker 1: you know, dropped dead of a heart attack for instance. Um,

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Speaker 1: of course, that can be very traumatic. You have no

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Speaker 1: question about it. It's an odd experience. It's something that

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Speaker 1: we're not usually something we're not normally exposed to in

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Speaker 1: our society, for something that's played back again and again

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Speaker 1: or not not really, I mean, honestly, I mean I've

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Speaker 1: I've wrote about it for my my book. I had

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Speaker 1: to write about a lot of that stuff. Um. I

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Speaker 1: went and talked to the shrink at v YEA a

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Speaker 1: couple of times, um about and and that kind of

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Speaker 1: stuff gets brought up. But no, it's not something I

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Speaker 1: replay in my mind every day. It's not something that

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Speaker 1: like really bothers me, per see. Um. But it isn't

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Speaker 1: It is an experience that still sticks with you. You know,

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Speaker 1: this guy was alive a minute ago. Now he's dead,

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Speaker 1: and there's like a flag falling across his eyeball um.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it demonstrates the finality of death and

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Speaker 1: how fragile life is, like it can be over like

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Speaker 1: flipping a light switch. Like I don't think we realized

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Speaker 1: that and are like modern Western society, um, because we're

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Speaker 1: not exposed to death the way we were back in

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Speaker 1: the old days, back when we were like cavemen and

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Speaker 1: ship like that. You know, other than you know, video

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Speaker 1: games and violence on TV and World Star hip hop

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Speaker 1: and all that. Yeah. Man, other than those kind of

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Speaker 1: like voideuristic or virtual experiences, we don't really experience, um,

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Speaker 1: death like that. Normally. We've become numb to other of

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Speaker 1: things though, because every day you hear, oh, it's another shooting,

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Speaker 1: and it's not the same impact even for me is

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Speaker 1: when we heard I remember where I was when we

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Speaker 1: heard about the Columbine shooting. Right now. That happens all

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Speaker 1: the time, and it's hard. It's like, uh, I think

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Speaker 1: it to us, it feels like an abstraction. Uh. You know,

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Speaker 1: the same can be said for the entire you know,

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Speaker 1: global war on terror. It's this abstraction in some far

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Speaker 1: away land. You know, the fact that our soldiers are

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Speaker 1: out there fighting and killing is not something that people

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Speaker 1: necessarily understand or even think about. And you know in

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Speaker 1: those moments where, um, it becomes impossible to ignore um,

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Speaker 1: when we you know, you know those moments where like

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Speaker 1: let's say, uh Sugart and Gordon were killed in Mangadishu

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Speaker 1: and their bodies pulled through the street and it's like, oh, ship,

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Speaker 1: this is real, Like this is really happening, and we

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Speaker 1: can't ignore it. Um there. And I'm not talking about

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Speaker 1: the soldiers who are in these these conflicts obviously they know.

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Speaker 1: But for the American public, I think it's very much

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Speaker 1: this abstraction. And it's only in these like rare moments

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Speaker 1: where they're like, oh shit, like well, you know, like

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Speaker 1: when the when the soldiers were killed in uh in

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Speaker 1: Niger and it's like, oh shit, like this is happening.

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Speaker 1: Why why are we in Africa? Like what's going on?

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it's all very much abstracted until

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Speaker 1: it can't be anymore. Um, And those moments are gonna

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Speaker 1: keep coming at us, you know, as Americans as long

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Speaker 1: as we're fighting this war. Yeah all right, Well let's

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Speaker 1: get over to Jim Morris. There is the second time

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Speaker 1: he's on the show. It's been It was actually looking,

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Speaker 1: it's been about six months. I wanted to have Jim

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Speaker 1: back on. UM. He's like one of my favorite guys

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Speaker 1: to talk to, and UM, he's done so much. I

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Speaker 1: brought his book in, actually, the Devil's Secret Name, This

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Speaker 1: is one of his books. He's written a bunch of others, Um,

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Speaker 1: but this book is kind of what he did after

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Speaker 1: Vietnam UM a lot of it working for Soldier of

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Speaker 1: Fortune magazine where he was traveling around UH, Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia,

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Speaker 1: Beirut back during the war, UM, and a few other places. Nice. Alright, well,

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Speaker 1: let's get right into it. I'll give him a call

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Speaker 1: back on the show. Jim Morris, green beret during the

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Speaker 1: Vietnam War, turned to author. He's written eight books, including

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Speaker 1: his best seller, which was War Story, and he's also

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Speaker 1: written for some big publications like Soldier of Fortune. But

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Speaker 1: if you heard him on the last episode with us,

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Speaker 1: we kind of got into all the Vietnam stuff. And

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Speaker 1: as you brought in here, Jack, you've been reading this

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Speaker 1: book which kind of documents post Vietnam War. Yeah, Hey, Jam,

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Speaker 1: it's Jack. Good have you back on the show again.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for doing it. Good to be talking to you.

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Speaker 1: Jack Good morning, Yeah, good morning. Uh yeah, no, I

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Speaker 1: I pulled the Devil's Secret Name off my shelf. I

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Speaker 1: read this back when I was in the Army, and

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to refresh my self a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Um But before we get into all that kind of stuff,

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Speaker 1: I mean, how are you doing, Jim? Um me personally?

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Speaker 1: Have I'm doing great, um, working on it, working on

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Speaker 1: a new book, and uh uh some interesting things were

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Speaker 1: starting to happen, one of which is this, And I'm well,

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Speaker 1: as we talked, I've been into smessteric studies, and and

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Speaker 1: because of my own and because we're old, you know,

425
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: all all this stuff I've been kind of shining on

426
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 1: for my whole life has started to catch up with me.

427
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 1: So I've devoted a lot of my recent time to

428
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: a study of energy healing techniques and they're working. And

429
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 1: uh so that's not only do I have an exciting

430
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,880
Speaker 1: new area of investigation, but it's it's having showing good results.

431
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 1: Is that what your next book is going to be about? Um? No, Actually,

432
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 1: my next book is about a past life regression gone wrong.

433
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 1: It's a novel. Yeah interesting, it's um well, it's based

434
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: on a real incident back in the seventies, a friend

435
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,919
Speaker 1: of mine, actually a friend of a friend, hypnotized his

436
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 1: wife and woke her up in that personality and work

437
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: woke her up in the personality of a pioneer woman

438
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,640
Speaker 1: from a hundred or more years before, and took her

439
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: on a tour of the twentieth century and that personality,

440
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: and she didn't like it, so he put her back

441
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 1: under and you know, switch personalities out again. But in

442
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 1: my novel, that happens by mistake, and uh, the personality

443
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,479
Speaker 1: that okay, it's it's a woman. She's a Cherokee jazz singer,

444
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: sort of like Keeley Smith, only modern day. And it

445
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: turns out that she is a reincarnation of Bloody Bill Anderson,

446
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: one of the Missouri Guerrillas. So we've got this really

447
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: cute chick inhabited by, uh, one of the one of

448
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 1: the worst gun slingers, the guy who taught Frank and

449
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 1: Jesse James how to rob Banks. Do you believe in

450
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: in reincarnation then, Jim, I don't disbelieve in it. Uh,

451
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: there's there's something weird going on, and um, that's the

452
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: most likely explanation. You know, I've researched this pretty thoroughly.

453
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: And I mean there are thousands of cases of past

454
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: life aggressions that UM the check out, you know, such

455
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: things as okay, friend of mine. UM. When I was

456
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 1: in publishing, uh, one of my my one of my

457
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: boss is Marilyn Abraham later went on to be UM

458
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: editor in chief at Fireside Books, which was Simon and

459
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: Schuster's New Age line, And I told her I was

460
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 1: studying this stuff, and she gave me a book that

461
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 1: she had recently done about a woman in England who

462
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 1: UM was redressed and was found to be the reincarnation

463
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 1: of a barely recently died woman in Ireland. And she

464
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,439
Speaker 1: went and checked it out, and you know, the stuff

465
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: that the woman said was there was there, and then

466
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 1: they re reunited this woman with her children from that incarnation,

467
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: who were at that point in their seventies and eighties.

468
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: And so it's a fascinating, uh topic for investigation. But

469
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 1: I don't think you can never you know, um prove

470
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: it for sure one way or the other. Yeah, it's

471
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: one of those things. I mean, I guess if you're

472
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: a spiritual or a religious person, and you would see

473
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: it as the transmigration of the soul. Uh. Maybe if

474
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: you're a bit more of a pessimist, you might see

475
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: it as the human subconscious, you know, doing something. I mean,

476
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: there's some sort of phenomenon taking place right Well, you know,

477
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: if the study of every area of human activity has

478
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 1: proven anything, it is that the official story is always bullshit.

479
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: So so there's something more. There's always something more going on.

480
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: Another area of investigation, because there's gonna be another book

481
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: in this series. Another area of investigation is um uh,

482
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: you know, extraterrestrial visitation all of that. And truthfully, I

483
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: have seen more evidence of extraterrestrial visitation to planet Earth

484
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: than I have seen evidence of the existence of the

485
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: Czech Republic. It's just there's just that nobody is trying

486
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,719
Speaker 1: to convince me there is no Czech Republic. Are you

487
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: talking about like in the historical record or have you

488
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: just like seen things witnessed things uh that that are

489
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: difficult to both. I've seen three UFOs and the first

490
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: one was in Vietnam and um ah, well do you

491
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: want to hear the story? I mean, that's not all

492
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: this type of stuff and we rarely get to go

493
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: get into this, so yeah, sounds cool. Okay, Well, you

494
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: you know, you guys probably haven't studied the minut show.

495
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: I have Special Forces in Vietnam. But in November of

496
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: six we jumped in to re established Camp bou Prang

497
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: and uh this was on I was on patrol with

498
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: the MIC Force. UM and I didn't really have any

499
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: reason to be there except I just wanted to be there.

500
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: But um, I was a staff officer and I was

501
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: the S five and nobody knew what I did, so

502
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: I just let me do what I wanted to do.

503
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: And uh so I went out with with the MIC Force.

504
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: And this is very weird terrain because Okay, from the air,

505
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: this place looked like a golf course. Now on the

506
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: ground it was pretty rough, but this was an area

507
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: where the areas that looked like the greens were. Um,

508
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: there were just no trees. I'm not sure why, but

509
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: they were in this particular area. Is the only place

510
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: I've seen in Vietnam like it. There were big, wide

511
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: flat areas, it was pretty rocky and all of that.

512
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: So anyway, we were camped out. Um you know, I

513
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: camped out at night and on an area where there

514
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: was no tree cover, which was just the only time

515
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: as has ever happened to me in Vietnam, but no

516
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: tree covered. And so I'm lying there at eight o'clock.

517
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: The fires are out, we're not talking, we don't anybody

518
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: know we're there. And so I'm just laying there looking

519
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: at the sky, and all of a sudden, the star

520
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: just scooted across half the sky and stopped. And so

521
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: I thought, well, now that that doesn't happen. So I

522
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: lay there and I watched that particular star and after

523
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: a while, okay, it's it had scooted from my right

524
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: front to my right, not rear, but just above me

525
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: on the right hand side, and then it scooted all

526
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: the way across to the left hand side of my

527
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: field division and stopped again and started impersonating a scar

528
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: a star again and then uh, and then it just

529
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: shot off diagonally and kept going. And I thought, okay,

530
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: that's not a helicopter, not not anything of ours or

531
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: anybody else's huge human. I have no idea what that is,

532
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: but it's it's weird. It's it's it was flying and

533
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: I can't identify it. That makes that poe. Yeah, but

534
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: I've never seen like the basic, you know, the usual

535
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: flying saucer that people talked about A second thing I

536
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: saw was here in l A and I was just

537
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: I was gassing up in my car and I hav

538
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: to glance up at the sky in the middle of

539
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: a bright sunshine, not a cloud in the sky l

540
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: a day, and there was a UM there was. It

541
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: looked like a translucent smoke ring that was maybe a

542
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: mile across, about ten thousand feet up. And you know,

543
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: of course that's all of that estimate. There's no there's

544
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: no fur. I'm losing the word and I'm looking for

545
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: no perspective that I can tell you how what size

546
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: it was, but that's what it looked like. It looked

547
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: like this huge translucent blue smoke ring, but the outlines

548
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: were clear. And then I finished gas at my car

549
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: and drove off. It was still there, but again it

550
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: was in the sky and I can't identify it. So

551
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: it was the UFO the other the the last time

552
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: was well, actually when the last time it was in

553
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: the middle UM, I was starting my investigations of Samanism

554
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: and all that, and I went to visit Rolling Rolling Thunder,

555
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: who was a very well known medicine man lived in Carlin, Nevada,

556
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: and uh, it was an interesting encounter Uh, you're supposed to.

557
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: When you visit a medicine man, you're supposed to take

558
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: him a gift. So I gave him a copy of

559
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: War Story and he looked at me and he said,

560
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: so you like to kill the little yellow people did?

561
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: And uh, I don't like to kill people, but I

562
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: really wanted to kill him at that point. And I

563
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: didn't say anything, but it was, you know, I'm pretty

564
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: sure it was all over my face. And he just

565
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: looked at me and said, you're not ready yet, and

566
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: I took yet as the operative word. Well, I went

567
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: outside and my wife then, um had she was in

568
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: her period, and they wouldn't let you can't see a

569
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: medicine man when you're in your period. Women can't. Some

570
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: I don't understand the law, but that's the law. And

571
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: she's pointed over and she said, look, there's a UFO

572
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: and it just looked like a commercial jet taken off

573
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: to me, except there was no airport and there was

574
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: no sound. So, um, anyway, that's my three personal experiences

575
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: with things that I couldn't identify that seemed to be

576
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: flying in the sky. Well, I'm personally not convinced to

577
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: the extraterrestrial angle. But I'm I'm certainly convinced that there

578
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: are some natural phenomena of some kind, some sort of

579
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:12,720
Speaker 1: atmospheric phenomena taking place that we don't understand. It could

580
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: be that it could be something to do with layers

581
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: in the eyeonosphere and light refraction, and you know, I

582
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 1: have no idea what it is, but I have become

583
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 1: fascinated with the with the stories that have grown up

584
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 1: around it, and the things that actually believe, the things

585
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: that people actually believe. UM. There's a it's like the

586
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: TV channel, but it's on the Internet called Gaya, which

587
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 1: explores this stuff, UM pretty thoroughly in just about anybody

588
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: can get on there with their story. And a little

589
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: bit later today I'm going to probably be watching a

590
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: program where there's an interview with this guy who um

591
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: claims to have been an infantry lieutenant in the in

592
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: the Secret Space program, who has battle Wolverines on Mars

593
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: something like that. And Uh, the thing about these guys,

594
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: these stories, I mean, I've been watching these for a

595
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: couple of years because they fascinate me. Uh, and I've

596
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: never caught them in an inconsistency. Um, whatever it is

597
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: it is, it is a very well developed story. Yeah,

598
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: and it's um, it's on a par with O, say,

599
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:36,240
Speaker 1: Isaac Asimov's Foundation series. You know, it may be science fact,

600
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: it may be science fiction, but whatever it is, they

601
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 1: believe really great story. Well it's like, uh, you know,

602
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 1: one of our writers told us the story on the

603
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,720
Speaker 1: podcast one times as uh an internet conspiracy theory about

604
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: how Special Forces guys you know, had a firefight some

605
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 1: sort of battle with extraterrestrials and under round bunker's underground

606
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 1: science labs run by our government, and it was like

607
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 1: the greatest story ever told. I mean, guys losing limbs

608
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: to particle beam weapons and it had everything. Yeah. Yeah,

609
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: that's part of this thing that I'm talking about. And

610
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: that story I've heard that story. Uh, let's see, it

611
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 1: was in New Mexico, allegedly in New Mexico. Um, and

612
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: I forget the name of the of the base that

613
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: it's it's near Dulce, New Mexico. But the obvious I

614
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 1: wanted to go with this Roswell because that's where everyone

615
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: everything apparently happened. Well that's in Nevada. I'm sorry, Yeah, yeah,

616
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: that's Roswell to me is the home of the New

617
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: Mexico Military Institute, which I went to the Oklahoma Military Academy,

618
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 1: and they were the only one of those high school

619
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: junior college military academies that we thought might be as

620
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 1: good or dare I say it even better than one

621
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: one to But Jim, one of the things I did

622
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: want to UM talk to you about today. I mean,

623
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 1: we can't talk about anything you want. Of course, talking

624
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 1: about you know, UFOs and things, it's pretty cool too,

625
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: But I was hoping I could get you to tell

626
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: us a little bit about the story about after Vietnam

627
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,439
Speaker 1: and some of the things you did to help out

628
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: the Mountain Yards, UM, because there are some interesting parallels

629
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: with how UM today's Special Forces veterans have tried to

630
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: help their interpreters in Iraq or Afghanistan or some of

631
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: the other soldiers that we've worked with overseas. It's like

632
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: this common theme, you know, that bond that development fight

633
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: to do it. Yeah, I was wondering if you could

634
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: talk about a little bit about how you went back

635
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: to Nam after the war and UM and played a

636
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: role in repatriating or not repatriating, but helping them immigrate

637
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: to the United States. Yeah, I'd be more than happy

638
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: to talk about it, and in fact, that's one of

639
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: the things that that's breaking. Now. Another s SF guy

640
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,720
Speaker 1: on I'm not sure he wants his name put forth

641
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,720
Speaker 1: at this time, but he's doing a he's doing a film,

642
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 1: a documentary the relationship between s F and the Montain Yards.

643
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: And I've been helping him with leads and you know

644
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 1: they're going to interview me and blah blah blah, um,

645
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: you know, the usual making a documentary thing. But his

646
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: preparation is pretty competent, and it looks like I think

647
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: it's gonna I think it's going to be a really

648
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 1: good doc um. And well, the last person I sent

649
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 1: him to is Epoch Canoel, who is a Mountaineyard that

650
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: lives in Greensboro, North Carolina. And the thing about Epiac

651
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: is that he was too young to fight with Special

652
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 1: Forces in Vietnam, but now he volunteers as a gorilla

653
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: chief for Robin's Sage. So we had Montaineyards from Vietnam

654
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: helping to train green Berets and that's pretty cool, I think.

655
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: So I just warmed my heart at great guy anyway,

656
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: and he's live here so long. He's the only mountainyard

657
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: that I can have, you know, just perfectly one on

658
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: one conversations with about a lot deeper stuff than across

659
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: the river, and followed and followed the trail, you know.

660
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: And uh uh, but I mean there are there are

661
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: a lot of these guys, and there there are quite

662
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,919
Speaker 1: a few others, Um. One of them, Louis epen Byng,

663
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: is the son of of the Montayard commander m from

664
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 1: Bu Praying, the place that we jumped into, and that

665
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: after the revolt, those guys couldn't stay in Vietnam, so

666
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: they skied out for Cambodia and joined the army. And

667
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:53,919
Speaker 1: when I knew Um his father, Louis epenn Byng, when

668
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 1: I when I knew a pen he was a major.

669
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: It was a battalion commander in the Cambodian Army. And

670
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 1: I went out on not a patrol but a to

671
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 1: his base where he was stationed for a while, and

672
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: we got to hit that night and blah blah blah,

673
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 1: but uh that was okay and shoot. In seventy three,

674
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: Um I went to I was I was going to

675
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: see some friends in Florida. But I knew that my

676
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: old interpreter Padou who um had another one of these

677
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: guys who he was a full Row major. I think

678
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: four row was the mont Yard Revolutionary Organization Front and

679
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 1: if he delude Ross's oprah mays, the unified fighting front

680
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 1: of the oppressed people. Anyway, he was, he was. It

681
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 1: was full row and he had been the chief interpreter

682
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: slash commander of the two Core micro Force before he

683
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: got run off because the two Core micro Force was

684
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: basically a full world battalion. Um but so anyway, so

685
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: he was. He was in Cambodia in seventy and and uh,

686
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: I went. He was taking the advanced course as a

687
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: Cambodian major. So I went to visit him, and he said.

688
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 1: He had a kind of gravelly voice because he'd been

689
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: shot in the vocal course. But he said, I tell you, Morris,

690
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: He said, when this war is over, I go back

691
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 1: Vietnam and wage war for my people. And I said,

692
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 1: I don't see how you can win that, and he said,

693
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: well I'm going to try it. So um So I said, okay,

694
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: I'll do an area assessment. I'll come over to Cambodia

695
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 1: next summer and um uh we'll figure out. And I

696
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: did the area assessment and there was just no way

697
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: it was. It was a feudal thing, and so I

698
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 1: went to Cambodia to tell him that, and um, that's

699
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: how I met Louis and some other stuff. I met,

700
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 1: for instance, Al Rockoff, who was the guy that Malkovich

701
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: played in Killing Field, and Al and I are good

702
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:15,959
Speaker 1: friends today. But um, anyway, uh, you know, I told

703
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: pot Oh, I said there's no way, and he said, well,

704
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: it's tough, because I'm going to do it. And he

705
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: didn't live that long. He was one. He and his

706
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: family we're taken out. They were part of that groups

707
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,320
Speaker 1: that took refuge in the French embassy and the Khmer

708
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,479
Speaker 1: rous said, you know, turn them out or we'll burn

709
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: you down. And the French folded. So all these people

710
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 1: were turned loose. About two hundred mont Yards that had

711
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,799
Speaker 1: taken our two hundred Cambodi and some of them were

712
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:49,760
Speaker 1: Montein Yards had taken refuge in the French embassy. And okay,

713
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 1: now there's two stories. One story is that um the

714
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 1: family was Pardo and the family was killed, and the

715
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: other story he is that he convinced him that he

716
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: could just join the Khmer rouge and help them fight

717
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: the Vietnamese, and he didn't really care that he thought

718
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: the Vietnamese for he's wanted to kill Vietnamese and um

719
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: and that they took him up on it, which would

720
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 1: have saved his family. And if that story in According

721
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 1: to this story, he was killed a couple of years

722
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: later fighting with the KR. But if that story is true,

723
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 1: perhaps his wife and some of his kids survived. Its possibility,

724
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: you know, that's just one aspect of it. I was

725
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: there for a summer and at that point, Um General

726
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:46,240
Speaker 1: Lesca sim who who was a oh what's the sham?

727
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: He was a sham and um they were they were

728
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 1: those were a scoast people from Vietnam and they were Muslims,

729
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 1: but many of them had They had also skide out

730
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: for Cambodia. And he was a brigadier general in Cambodian Army.

731
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: But he had founded full row the the the revolutionary

732
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 1: organization which was theoretically it was Montainyard's and Cambodes. And

733
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: let's see the Montayard is the commercier I and the KKK,

734
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: the Kirk Campuche crom So to Cambodian factions and the

735
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: Montainyard faction and the Mountainyards were the only ones who

736
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: ever did anything. But anyway, he was a general in that,

737
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 1: lieutenant general in that, and a brigadier general in the

738
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: Cambodian Army. And so he sort of commissioned me to

739
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 1: come back here and do pr for the for the montyards.

740
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,240
Speaker 1: And I tried, and it was I was seventy three.

741
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: Everybody was so burned on Vietnam. Nobody wanted to hear it.

742
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: And I got I got discouraged Duson and I just

743
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:05,959
Speaker 1: got loaded and stayed loaded for about a decade. And um,

744
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 1: then in the nineties, when I was in New York,

745
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: UM a guy named Don Scott who had run a

746
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: civilian hospital in Vietnam. Uh for an organization the name

747
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: of which escapes for me right now, but maybe it'll

748
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,280
Speaker 1: come to me. Anyway, he ran a civilian hospital in Vietnam,

749
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: and uh Don had money, family money, and he found

750
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: out that there were two hundred of these four Row

751
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 1: guys and their families who had made it to Thailand,

752
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: and the Ties had pretty much, you know, pretty much imprisoned.

753
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: They were in a in a refugee camp, which was

754
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 1: just you know, not a good life. And um, so

755
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 1: he took it upon himself to try and get them

756
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:03,240
Speaker 1: to the States, and I joined him as his PR guy.

757
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 1: And it was a natural story. I mean we did

758
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 1: you know it was you know, sometimes you do PR

759
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 1: stuff and it it just goes nowhere. But this this

760
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: went like a rocket and we got those two people

761
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: to UM two. Well, he wanted Don wanted to take

762
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: him to hum Massachusetts, which is where he's from, and

763
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: I said, no, send him to North Carolina. There there

764
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: the weather is closer to what they're familiar with. The

765
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: there's lots of special forces nearby that work with them,

766
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 1: so they'll have friends there. So excuse me. Those people

767
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 1: were resettled in North Carolina and UM then UM and

768
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:55,800
Speaker 1: the incidentally the social worker who helped resettle and sending

769
00:47:55,880 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: McCurdy at that time, UM later married he Puck. So

770
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: oh wow, uh uh so you know they're there, they've

771
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: been Jesus, they've been together more than twenty years now,

772
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 1: I think, and um Uh they've adopted a gang of

773
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: kids and they have a really nice life in Greensboro. Um.

774
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: It reminds me a little bit of uh the Yazdi

775
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: Um that we worked with in Iraq ethnic minority and

776
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 1: northwestern Iraq. UM and a few of my interpreters were

777
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: Yazdi when I was there in two thousand and nine,

778
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: and I didn't do anything like like you and your

779
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 1: friends did, or really campaign and bring entire families over. Um.

780
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: I just wrote a few letters to the State Department

781
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 1: on their behalf, saying, you know, these guys worked for us,

782
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 1: They're great dudes. They should be allowed to immigrate to

783
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: America with their families. UM. And they have. They They

784
00:48:56,239 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: actually got out not long maybe less than a year

785
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 1: before Isis swept through sin jar Um. Whether yaz are

786
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: from wonderful, that's wonderful and wonderful news. And just what

787
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 1: you here wiped out all the people that were there,

788
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: and um, unfortunately their family members that were left, I

789
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 1: mean they were sold off as sex slaves and uh,

790
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: butchered and starved to death and all kinds of craziness.

791
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 1: But at least those guys and and their you know,

792
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 1: their wives and their kids were able to get out

793
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,919
Speaker 1: and they live in the United States now. So thank

794
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: God for that much. Well, yeah, and that it is

795
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 1: the same and and I'm glad you wrote through letters.

796
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: And I think maybe our effort had the residual from that.

797
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 1: The State Department realizes, oh, when we start getting letters

798
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: from special Forces people, if we ignore them, they will

799
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 1: suck us over badly. Well, I remember you have that

800
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: line in the book where I I believe you were

801
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: in the US embassy entirely end, and you said something,

802
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong, when you said something like

803
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: you remember the last scene in Rambo to where he

804
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 1: comes and shoots the place up, like that's what's gonna happen,

805
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:14,280
Speaker 1: but with two hundred of us if you funk around, Yeah,

806
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,280
Speaker 1: yeah that what That wasn't me? That was Alan Dawson

807
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: who and uh. Dawson was a Canadian who was UM

808
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 1: reporter in Vietnam and he stayed when it folded. He

809
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: was he was there when Vietnam unfolded and finally got

810
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,959
Speaker 1: expelled with his Vietnamese wife a month or so after

811
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 1: the country fell, and he stayed and worked for the

812
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: Bangkok Post. Interested guy, really neat interesting guy. But there

813
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: there is more to that story. We got those two

814
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 1: hundred people in and then um, then I then I

815
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: got another job up and had to go back to

816
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 1: work and uh, but but you know I kept my

817
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 1: relationship with those people. But right after I moved out

818
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:15,799
Speaker 1: here to California. A a really crazy reporter named Nate

819
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: Sayer found the rest of the battalion that those two

820
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,320
Speaker 1: hundreds had come from. So there were another eight hundred

821
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:28,800
Speaker 1: mont Yards living in the Jungles and Cambodia. Who were

822
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: who had you know, who had fought for us? And

823
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 1: then continue, Okay, this is another story. This is a

824
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 1: horrible story. Um Ed Sprague was a friend of mine

825
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 1: who Uh, he'd retired his knee eight. He retired from

826
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 1: the Army, worked for the now he just went to

827
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 1: work directly for the Agency. He was the agency's Montinyard

828
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:57,359
Speaker 1: guy in in Vietnam. And that's that's where I met

829
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: him and Um. In seventy three, when I went back

830
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: to do that thing with Pato and Um, he had

831
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 1: had a plaque in uh in his in his living

832
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 1: room with a beautiful brass Plaquet said Special Forces has

833
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 1: done so much with so little for so long that

834
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:24,879
Speaker 1: now we're expected to do everything with nothing forever. That's

835
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: not exactly true, but it kind of tells you what

836
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: kind of guy D was and Uh, And so I

837
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 1: met him in seventy three, and then of course the

838
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: country fell in seventy and he had made arrangements for

839
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: his Montinyards to go to the beach, um I think

840
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 1: in the trauma. And he went back to Saigon to

841
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 1: arrange um somebody to pick them up and get them out.

842
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 1: And when he got to the embassy, they just threw

843
00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 1: him out of the country, you know. Yeah, and um

844
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 1: uh So um Ed was badly depressed by that for

845
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 1: quite a long time. Yea. And but what happened was

846
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 1: uh Okay Nay Lowett, who had been uh well he

847
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 1: he had been in many things, but one of them

848
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 1: was an intelligence handler for me uh and he was

849
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 1: the second and last Minister of Ethnic Minorities of the

850
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 1: Republic of Vietnam. And um So, as the country was falling,

851
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:45,799
Speaker 1: he and a couple of other four oh guys went

852
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 1: to the embassy and they all offered to set up

853
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: a guerrilla movement, you know. And the people in the

854
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: in the and the embassy that they talked to um

855
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: made positive sounding noises that you know, they claimed, we

856
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: didn't commit to anything like that. And well, there are

857
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: no there are no weasel words in the mont Yard languages.

858
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 1: If if you ask me yes or no question, and

859
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:16,279
Speaker 1: somebody smiles and nods, that's a yes. And so they

860
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 1: sat up. They fought on for years after we left.

861
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,319
Speaker 1: And one of those guys, he flew a bone. I was.

862
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 1: He was telling me about it. He said, we won

863
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:27,799
Speaker 1: every battle, and we came out of every battle worse

864
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 1: than we went into it. You know, our our radios

865
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 1: were breaking down, our weapons were breaking down. Um. And

866
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,240
Speaker 1: you know, they still expected that we would come back

867
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 1: and open up the supply lines, and so they were

868
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:50,919
Speaker 1: just getting killed for absolutely nothing. And UM. So that's

869
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 1: when finally about a thousand of them they couldn't go home.

870
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 1: They were wanted men, so they set out for Thailand

871
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: to make contact with the Americans. And it was those

872
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: two two hundred of them finally made it too uh

873
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 1: to Thailand. And those are the ones that Don and

874
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: I brought over. Don and I and many other guys.

875
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 1: Most of them were SF not all, but there were

876
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 1: another eight hundred of them still fighting the kr and

877
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 1: Cambodia another. I mean, they were trying to avoid it

878
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 1: more than anything else. But they had to fight him sometimes.

879
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 1: And uh Nate there, who has never served, but he

880
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 1: stuck his neck out a lot. Uh Nate found him

881
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 1: and published their story. And Don said, we got to

882
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 1: get those guys here, and I said okay, and I

883
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:47,920
Speaker 1: started cranking out the press releases in this time. I

884
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 1: mean it took two years the first time. This time

885
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 1: the State Department just said, oh, hell yes, let you know,

886
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 1: we don't want to we don't want to go through

887
00:55:56,200 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 1: that again. And so so directly as a result of

888
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: our efforts about the I think there were maybe oh

889
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 1: less than a hundred, maybe like twenty or thirty montainyards

890
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 1: in the United States who had just been here when

891
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,839
Speaker 1: the country folded and they didn't go home. But then

892
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 1: we got the We pretty much us got the first

893
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 1: thousand the end and now through you know, orderly departure

894
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 1: for whatever the name of the program is, we've managed that.

895
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 1: There about four thousand mountain yards in the country and

896
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 1: they they have made a hell of a hell of

897
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 1: a record. H none of them have ever been on

898
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:45,760
Speaker 1: welfare longer than it took to get established. They worked

899
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:50,920
Speaker 1: to three jobs. I know, I personally know a montainyard millionaire.

900
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 1: Uh I know, um of I know mountain yards who

901
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: are I know one montain yard who as a social

902
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,799
Speaker 1: worker in massach us It's he's a guy that Don

903
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 1: had brought over when the war was still on and

904
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,760
Speaker 1: put him in a private boarding school in New England.

905
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 1: You know, so he's got that education and he's a

906
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 1: social worker in Massachusetts or was. Um, I mean all

907
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 1: these people are older now, of course. I mean that's

908
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 1: a pretty amazing transition, because when I mean when US

909
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 1: Special Forces first started working with the Montin Yards in Vietnam,

910
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 1: I mean, weren't most of these guys still wearing loin cloths. Yeah, yeah,

911
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 1: they were hunting. They were wearing loin cloths and hunting

912
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 1: rats for breakfast with crossbows. That's insane. But not all

913
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 1: of them were, you know, the French ad programs for

914
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 1: them and uh for instance, my uh my actually was

915
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 1: my best friend who was not an American in Vietnam,

916
00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 1: Philippe Druin and Philippe uh Philippe been through some French

917
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 1: educational things and um uh there. Incidentally, there's a new

918
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 1: book about him by Dan Ford, the guy that wrote

919
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: Uh Incident Muka, which was made into the movie Go

920
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 1: tell the Spartans, there's a there. There, there is a character,

921
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 1: and and this Burt Lancaster movie who was based on

922
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 1: my interpreter. And anyway, there's Dan just recently released a

923
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 1: book called The Cowboy about we interviewed. We interviewed him,

924
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 1: you did, Yes, we did. I I think you recommended

925
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 1: him to us, and we had him on the show, Yeah,

926
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 1: and did an interview. It was very interesting to see

927
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 1: the paths with the different personalities that they that they

928
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:52,919
Speaker 1: all crossed paths with. Oh yeah, oh yeah. Philippe was Hey,

929
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 1: let's let's let's be real about it. Philippe was a

930
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 1: blood thrust of killer and here's a cowboy to really. Yeah. Yeah,

931
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 1: he was a bad little motherfucker and such was such

932
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 1: was my mindset at the time. And I considered him

933
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:16,560
Speaker 1: my best friend. And he was a guy who introduced

934
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 1: me to Louette, who was then working for the U

935
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:23,919
Speaker 1: Say Guy, which you know, the U Said Guy being

936
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 1: the U Say Guy was a cover for being something

937
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 1: else and uh. Anyway, Louett was was the best of

938
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 1: a lot. He had just gotten out of prison when

939
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:41,520
Speaker 1: I met him, because there was a general amnesty after

940
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 1: the GM coup and they turned loose a lot of

941
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 1: people from prison, and Louette had taken a about four

942
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 1: years before, I had taken a a petition for decent

943
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 1: treatment of the Montain Yards to the GM regime and

944
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 1: had promptly clapped him and everybody else in jail. And

945
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 1: at that time he was working for UM John albertson

946
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 1: the US AID rip as UH driver interpreter. Talking about

947
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 1: this the State Department program U S A I d

948
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 1: UM for listeners who might not be acquainted with them.

949
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 1: I mean, they do distribute aid UM for the State

950
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 1: Department for America all over the world, but they've also

951
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 1: been involved in things like, say uh funneling weapons to

952
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: Pakistan for distribution to the mujah Haddeen during the nineties

953
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 1: to fight the Soviets. So you put two and two

954
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:41,640
Speaker 1: together with with what Jim is talking about right now. Yeah, yeah,

955
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 1: um I um uh yeah. I constantly get gigs on

956
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:51,840
Speaker 1: that I'm speaking in what I considered perfect English. People

957
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 1: are looking at me like, what's you trying to say?

958
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:56,560
Speaker 1: Oh no, I I get it, but some of the

959
01:00:56,640 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 1: listeners might not know what we're talking about. Knew you

960
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:04,120
Speaker 1: got it, But your point is, your point is well taken. Um.

961
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 1: My friend Josh Cochrane just read War Story and he said,

962
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:09,560
Speaker 1: the next addition to this, you gotta have a gloss Roy.

963
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 1: Now there's like I just finished writing my my pre

964
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 1: premature memoir maybe, Um, but I put a glossary in

965
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:24,320
Speaker 1: the book for just that reason. Yeah. Well I approached

966
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 1: war story is though. Well that was in the age

967
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 1: of so called new journalism. You know, Tom Wolfe was

968
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 1: doing stuff like The Tangerines, like Streamline Baby, and uh,

969
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:39,480
Speaker 1: he was writing nonfiction as as though it were fiction,

970
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:42,960
Speaker 1: and it turned out some some really great books. Speaking

971
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 1: of new journalism, another thing I really wanted to ask

972
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 1: you was about if you could tell us about the

973
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 1: experience of going to write for Soldier of Fortune magazine.

974
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:56,800
Speaker 1: And I've met Bob Brown on two occasions. Uh, and

975
01:01:56,920 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 1: I know he's a very controversial figure, but just to

976
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:02,520
Speaker 1: be real, I really liked the guy. I mean, he

977
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:05,720
Speaker 1: left an impression on me. And uh, I feel like,

978
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 1: you know, kind of the same way I feel talking

979
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:09,520
Speaker 1: to you, Jim. I feel like I could listen to

980
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:13,000
Speaker 1: Bob Brown tell stories all day. I mean, he's he's

981
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 1: got him yeah really really Yeah. The thing about Brown,

982
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 1: the thing you have to you have to know to

983
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:23,960
Speaker 1: understand Bob is that he is the world's oldest seventh

984
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:31,640
Speaker 1: grader and uh, he just you know, Bob. Okay, when

985
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:34,840
Speaker 1: I heard somebody somebody told me, or maybe I read

986
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:37,840
Speaker 1: it in the paper that some some nut job in Boulder,

987
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 1: Colorado had established a trade journal for mercenaries. And I

988
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 1: had this cardboard box full of Vietnam stuff that I've written,

989
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 1: and I couldn't sell it anywhere. And I had sold

990
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 1: a couple of stories to Esquire, but that was in

991
01:02:55,520 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 1: sixty five, before before we can minted troops and the

992
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 1: anti war movement really got got to rowing, and you

993
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:07,720
Speaker 1: couldn't you couldn't get arrested with stuff like that when

994
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 1: you know. After I got out, so um, I called

995
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 1: Bob and I told him, may I got this box

996
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,240
Speaker 1: of stuff, and he said, great, I'm going to a

997
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 1: reserve weekend or reserve two weeks this summer, and I'll

998
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 1: swing by on the way and look at your stuff.

999
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 1: It was five miles out of his way, and he

1000
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:33,439
Speaker 1: showed up eight. We had dinner. We had dinner with

1001
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:36,680
Speaker 1: me and came. Now we weren't married then, but we

1002
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 1: were living together, uh, me and my girlfriend and um

1003
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,640
Speaker 1: uh she was amazed that he ate his salad with

1004
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:49,919
Speaker 1: his hands. Um. And he took my cardboard box, which

1005
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:53,400
Speaker 1: I didn't have carbons of and took it back to Boulder,

1006
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 1: and it disappeared. And in the next two or four years,

1007
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 1: I made numerous trips to Boulder, um for other reasons,

1008
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:07,680
Speaker 1: but also to look for that stuff, and I never

1009
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 1: found it. And then I was in grad school again.

1010
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:15,640
Speaker 1: That's always been my escape, as when you know, when

1011
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:19,920
Speaker 1: all else fails, go to grad school and you will

1012
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:23,840
Speaker 1: be surrounded with good looking women who liked the party.

1013
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 1: So so that was working for me. And I got

1014
01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 1: a I got a postcard said we've accepted your story.

1015
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:38,720
Speaker 1: I didn't know which story it was, and um, and

1016
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 1: they sent me I think it was two hundred bucks,

1017
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:45,840
Speaker 1: maybe five hundred bucks, I can't remember, but it was

1018
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:49,360
Speaker 1: the story from which the movie Operation Doumbo Drop was made.

1019
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 1: And then later I they bought the whole box basically,

1020
01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:02,600
Speaker 1: and some the worries they bought didn't publish for more

1021
01:05:02,640 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 1: than a year and sent back to me, and I

1022
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:11,080
Speaker 1: waited another year and they bought him again. So I've

1023
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 1: been paid twice for I mean, that was so chaotic.

1024
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:18,880
Speaker 1: Jim Graves Um was the editor when I really started

1025
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 1: working for S O F. And Uh Graves said they

1026
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:26,600
Speaker 1: were bringing money in here in buckets, you know, and

1027
01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:33,320
Speaker 1: Brown was like back in guerrilla movements in Waos and uh,

1028
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 1: you know, I mean literally he had he had a

1029
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 1: guerrilla battalion. It was totally financed by Soldier of Fortune

1030
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:44,320
Speaker 1: and that there's a little well, there's a little bit

1031
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:47,479
Speaker 1: about that in Double Secret name. Um. But I wasn't

1032
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:49,160
Speaker 1: a part of that deal, so I just know about

1033
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:52,160
Speaker 1: its second hand. Well, if it makes you feel any better, Jim,

1034
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:57,480
Speaker 1: I I wrote an article about George Washington Bacon who

1035
01:05:57,600 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 1: fought in with McVie SAG and Vietnam and ended up

1036
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:05,280
Speaker 1: dying in Angola working as a personary. And I sent

1037
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 1: the article to Bob Brown, and Bob Brown wanted it.

1038
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 1: He wanted to publish it, and he lost it even

1039
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 1: though I sent it by email. He want he was

1040
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 1: losing the emails and I had to send it to

1041
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 1: him like five times and nothing ever happened with it.

1042
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:20,080
Speaker 1: But I mean, he still loses stuff, So don't feel

1043
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 1: too bad that he lost your box for a few years.

1044
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:28,960
Speaker 1: Bob's Bob's memory is a sieve. And you know, I'm sorry,

1045
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 1: but that's true. And it's you know, he's okay, I'm

1046
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:34,920
Speaker 1: eighty one. He that would make him eight seven. So

1047
01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 1: but it was always that way, you know when we

1048
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:40,600
Speaker 1: were when we were when I was in my forties

1049
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:43,880
Speaker 1: and he was let's see when we were in in

1050
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 1: in Thailand. We were in Thailand for six months chasing

1051
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 1: various stories. The big one that he was on was

1052
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 1: the was the cow story. That was when Bo Grights

1053
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:58,400
Speaker 1: made his foray and to allow us to find the

1054
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:02,840
Speaker 1: ows and all of that. And I was supposed to

1055
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:05,760
Speaker 1: make a foray and allow us to find po ws.

1056
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:09,400
Speaker 1: But the you know, we stamped by the river all night,

1057
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:13,120
Speaker 1: but the light never flashed for us to cross cile

1058
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:21,680
Speaker 1: and cross and um. But anyway, yeah, Bob was back

1059
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 1: in this um, this guerrilla movement, and that was that

1060
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:33,600
Speaker 1: that six months in Thailand. It was great. Um. I

1061
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:36,439
Speaker 1: got the hung out with the forces of Coon saw

1062
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:40,200
Speaker 1: the Opium warlord, UM, and I was supposed to do

1063
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:44,000
Speaker 1: a story about them. But then Bob canceled that because

1064
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:48,320
Speaker 1: there some POWs were supposed to come across and didn't.

1065
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:50,439
Speaker 1: And then I was supposed to go with a low

1066
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:53,520
Speaker 1: resistance but a lot of a lot of it just

1067
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:58,520
Speaker 1: never came to anything. But we did. We did jump

1068
01:07:58,560 --> 01:08:05,120
Speaker 1: the freaking balloon. And yeah, remembering about that, Yeah, they

1069
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:07,440
Speaker 1: used the British system. You know, their first two jumps

1070
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:11,640
Speaker 1: are from a balloon gondala and uh, if you ever

1071
01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:14,560
Speaker 1: get one, get a chance to do that, take it,

1072
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:19,080
Speaker 1: but expect to be badly frightened because there's you know,

1073
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:22,320
Speaker 1: there's no there's no problem. You know, you're not moving

1074
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:25,439
Speaker 1: through the air, and so it's a it's a six

1075
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 1: thousand count. You know, you're only about seven feet off

1076
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 1: the ground when you go out of the gondola and

1077
01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:36,160
Speaker 1: you're going up thousand, two thousand, pre thousand, four thousands

1078
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:42,439
Speaker 1: and five thousand six like that. I have a couple

1079
01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:45,040
Speaker 1: of helicopter jumps, and I mean that was enough for me.

1080
01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:51,720
Speaker 1: I don't it's a it's a weird experience. Yeah, it

1081
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:55,400
Speaker 1: is a weird experience. Now we we took another jump

1082
01:08:55,439 --> 01:08:59,599
Speaker 1: out of a one thirty with a class from the

1083
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:05,080
Speaker 1: Time Royal Time Military Academy that afternoon, and because we

1084
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:09,320
Speaker 1: were their guests, they gave us they had like four

1085
01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:15,680
Speaker 1: steerables and we got those. Yeah. Yeah, I told you

1086
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:19,120
Speaker 1: the story before, and you know I was up wind

1087
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:21,719
Speaker 1: of the guys without steerables, and before I could even

1088
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:26,080
Speaker 1: it took a little seneglin to activate the things, and

1089
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:28,360
Speaker 1: before I could even do that. I was turned and

1090
01:09:28,439 --> 01:09:31,880
Speaker 1: headed right for this kid's canopy and I had to

1091
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:37,640
Speaker 1: run across it. And this canopy was like up to

1092
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:41,280
Speaker 1: my waist as I was going across it, you know,

1093
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:44,840
Speaker 1: and there we were at that point about maybe five

1094
01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:49,120
Speaker 1: set off the ground. So that was another one of

1095
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:56,960
Speaker 1: those rapid breathing incidents. Then and after after all that,

1096
01:09:57,160 --> 01:10:00,280
Speaker 1: you know, Bob sent you off to Beirut. We talked

1097
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:03,360
Speaker 1: about that a little bit last time, and uh and

1098
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:08,160
Speaker 1: then El Salvador, let's see, Yeah, he sent me to

1099
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:12,439
Speaker 1: Bearut twice. My first excursion was to bear Route and

1100
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 1: then um from from that, from Thailand, I went to

1101
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:28,680
Speaker 1: Tel Aviv and um we spent my wife Cathy was

1102
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:34,360
Speaker 1: with me as my photographer and um uh we spent

1103
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:40,760
Speaker 1: about them a month in Israel because the plan was

1104
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 1: for me to go back to bear Route. Well I

1105
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:44,920
Speaker 1: got back to bear Route, but it was in and

1106
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:47,479
Speaker 1: out with the I d F every day. They let

1107
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:51,920
Speaker 1: correspondence in for day trips, but they made him come

1108
01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:58,040
Speaker 1: back that night. And so we went to the Eleveanese

1109
01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:03,519
Speaker 1: Forces Press headquarters first day and um I ran into

1110
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:06,960
Speaker 1: my old buddies from the first trip, Max and Jack

1111
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:10,840
Speaker 1: and and Max said, look, just blow this guy off

1112
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:15,320
Speaker 1: and stay here. And uh, well we'll really give you

1113
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:21,280
Speaker 1: a good story. Well, my ideaf minder was an American

1114
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:26,599
Speaker 1: who had American Jude immigrated to Israel. Arnold Sherman, great guy, author,

1115
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:30,080
Speaker 1: Uh he was. He went to Israel to be the

1116
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:34,200
Speaker 1: press guy for l out and but he was a reservist.

1117
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:37,400
Speaker 1: And he said, um, he said, I can't stop you

1118
01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:41,360
Speaker 1: from doing that, but if if you do, I am

1119
01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:44,920
Speaker 1: really going to be in a bag. And uh, so

1120
01:11:45,160 --> 01:11:48,040
Speaker 1: I thought, I can't do that, you know, I mean

1121
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:50,599
Speaker 1: I I just have to play this one straight. So

1122
01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:56,160
Speaker 1: we were in and out of there for um about

1123
01:11:56,200 --> 01:12:01,160
Speaker 1: two weeks. Um when the when the Israeli's uh invaded,

1124
01:12:02,320 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 1: and um it was really interesting, really, I mean really

1125
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:10,000
Speaker 1: interesting because we would go in like convoys of rent

1126
01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:15,200
Speaker 1: cars and um we got sniped out a lot, and

1127
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:18,880
Speaker 1: um the roads were shipped, I mean they were pothold

1128
01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:25,439
Speaker 1: and uh shell hold, and um we got some good stuff,

1129
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:29,639
Speaker 1: really good stuff. But the first day we went up there,

1130
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:33,080
Speaker 1: before I even contacted with those guys, we stopped at

1131
01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:37,760
Speaker 1: a restaurant up in the hills over Beirute, and uh,

1132
01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:42,400
Speaker 1: I mean it was like mountains we're on. We're at

1133
01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:48,599
Speaker 1: at a really gourmet restaurant and we're sitting up there

1134
01:12:49,240 --> 01:12:54,160
Speaker 1: and Israeli jets are like coming down right over the

1135
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:57,840
Speaker 1: top of this restaurant down into the valley bombing in Beirut.

1136
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:01,040
Speaker 1: We're sitting up there and there there's a waiter in

1137
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:04,280
Speaker 1: a little red jacket saying more wine, fir you know.

1138
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:07,760
Speaker 1: I mean, it was just surreal experience. This was like

1139
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:11,320
Speaker 1: when the Israelis pushed into Lebanon for what like two

1140
01:13:11,360 --> 01:13:14,360
Speaker 1: weeks to create a buffer between on their border, if

1141
01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:18,080
Speaker 1: I remember correctly, that was originally the plan, but it

1142
01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:20,160
Speaker 1: was just I mean, it was just so easy not

1143
01:13:20,280 --> 01:13:22,080
Speaker 1: to go all the way to beir rout that they went.

1144
01:13:23,360 --> 01:13:26,200
Speaker 1: And that's when they rooted out the p l O

1145
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:29,799
Speaker 1: and sent them to Tunis I think it was, and

1146
01:13:30,360 --> 01:13:33,760
Speaker 1: created a Christian militia there right on the border. Yeah,

1147
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:36,120
Speaker 1: well I was. Those were those are my buddies. There's

1148
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:41,200
Speaker 1: still my buddies. We're Facebook friends today and um uh,

1149
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:46,519
Speaker 1: those guys the okay, there was gonna be there was

1150
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:48,519
Speaker 1: gonna be a lot of house to house stuff to

1151
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:50,400
Speaker 1: root out the p l O. That was the idea

1152
01:13:50,520 --> 01:13:54,080
Speaker 1: that the Israelis were going to talk the Christians into

1153
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:57,400
Speaker 1: going you know, I mean that's you know, that's that

1154
01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:01,040
Speaker 1: house to house is the worst. I mean in combat.

1155
01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:05,600
Speaker 1: That's more casualties in the house to house than anything.

1156
01:14:05,720 --> 01:14:08,120
Speaker 1: And these guys they've been doing that for years. They

1157
01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:11,519
Speaker 1: knew it, and they just were not you know, after you,

1158
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:17,879
Speaker 1: my dear Alphonse, No, no, and uh, they just wouldn't

1159
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:21,599
Speaker 1: do it. And because they knew that the Israelis were

1160
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:24,240
Speaker 1: trying to trick him into you know, taking the casualties

1161
01:14:24,280 --> 01:14:26,240
Speaker 1: that the Israelis didn't want to take. And they didn't

1162
01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:29,400
Speaker 1: want to take him either. So that's why there was

1163
01:14:29,439 --> 01:14:31,640
Speaker 1: a stalemate in their route for a long time, and

1164
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:36,240
Speaker 1: then they negotiated the exit. Jim. Unfortunately, we gotta start

1165
01:14:36,280 --> 01:14:38,200
Speaker 1: wrapping it up. I mean, as I feel like we're

1166
01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:41,320
Speaker 1: just getting started. But we have a we have another uh,

1167
01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:43,800
Speaker 1: we have another podcast. Actually another guest coming on that

1168
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:47,360
Speaker 1: we have to interview. I feel like we're just warming up, though. Um,

1169
01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:51,720
Speaker 1: you know, you're go ahead. I got a million of them,

1170
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:54,800
Speaker 1: but but you know, you gotta do what you gotta do. Well,

1171
01:14:54,840 --> 01:14:56,920
Speaker 1: we'll have to do this again and next time, not

1172
01:14:57,000 --> 01:15:00,559
Speaker 1: wait so long in between. Um, if we and you know,

1173
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:03,160
Speaker 1: steal some more of your time at some point um

1174
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:06,080
Speaker 1: your your account. I enjoy talking to you guys, and

1175
01:15:06,120 --> 01:15:08,839
Speaker 1: I had questions for you that I didn't get to explore.

1176
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:12,280
Speaker 1: How much how much time do we have you in?

1177
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:15,519
Speaker 1: I mean, technically we're supposed to have jo right now.

1178
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:18,160
Speaker 1: But he said, he's you know, he's fine. So if

1179
01:15:18,160 --> 01:15:20,800
Speaker 1: you have a quick question, all right, hit us up, Jim,

1180
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:23,360
Speaker 1: what do you got for us? One of the things

1181
01:15:23,439 --> 01:15:25,880
Speaker 1: you mentioned is that that you know, we were talking

1182
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:31,960
Speaker 1: about the my concern about people officers going into SF

1183
01:15:32,040 --> 01:15:34,960
Speaker 1: as captains and immediately their first assignment they're an eight

1184
01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:37,080
Speaker 1: team commander and they don't have a squat about it,

1185
01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:39,240
Speaker 1: and you said, yeah, and they're only with him for

1186
01:15:39,240 --> 01:15:42,880
Speaker 1: a couple of years. Well, that is such an improvement

1187
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:46,200
Speaker 1: over the way we had to operate, you know, because

1188
01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:49,080
Speaker 1: out of the first group, we were playing leapfrog in

1189
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 1: and out of Vietnam and and teams. Teams were formed

1190
01:15:54,560 --> 01:15:59,880
Speaker 1: for a six month mission, had two months of prep

1191
01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:04,120
Speaker 1: and uh, and then they were broken up again because

1192
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:07,360
Speaker 1: the guy, all the guys have been working in the

1193
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:10,400
Speaker 1: head quarters wanted to get into combat time. Basically, So

1194
01:16:10,439 --> 01:16:13,080
Speaker 1: if you if you can hold it. I just wondered

1195
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:15,000
Speaker 1: how you can hold a team together for two years?

1196
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:19,360
Speaker 1: What kind of organization did you have set up? How

1197
01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:22,720
Speaker 1: are you going into Afghanistan and Iraq? Where you going

1198
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:26,679
Speaker 1: as teams? Where you going? Where they hold it? Keeping

1199
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:30,760
Speaker 1: those teams together? How did that work? They? Well, you know,

1200
01:16:30,840 --> 01:16:33,479
Speaker 1: back in and during the Vietnam War, for instance, you

1201
01:16:33,479 --> 01:16:36,240
Speaker 1: know you had entire groups like fifth Group was really

1202
01:16:36,400 --> 01:16:41,240
Speaker 1: they existed just in Vietnam. Um. Nowadays we have what

1203
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:45,280
Speaker 1: fifth group, third Group, seventh Group, tenth group. We have

1204
01:16:45,280 --> 01:16:47,799
Speaker 1: all these active duty groups that are able to rotate

1205
01:16:48,280 --> 01:16:51,160
Speaker 1: in and out of theater. Um. And it's still I

1206
01:16:51,160 --> 01:16:56,080
Speaker 1: think at dicey UM with personnelity issues. UM. But yes,

1207
01:16:56,080 --> 01:16:59,160
Speaker 1: they would deploy his teams so the you know, you'd

1208
01:16:59,160 --> 01:17:02,200
Speaker 1: have the O d A. They'd be together, training together,

1209
01:17:02,320 --> 01:17:05,840
Speaker 1: working together, all that good stuff, um, back in garrison

1210
01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:09,120
Speaker 1: and back during their training cycles, and then the entire

1211
01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:12,880
Speaker 1: team would deploy to Afghanistan or Iraq or wherever. You

1212
01:17:12,920 --> 01:17:14,679
Speaker 1: know how you know the deal with the J sets

1213
01:17:14,680 --> 01:17:17,000
Speaker 1: and everything. They could get deployed anywhere around the world.

1214
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:21,120
Speaker 1: They don't get broken up when they come home. No, no, Um,

1215
01:17:21,160 --> 01:17:23,439
Speaker 1: you're you're absolutely right. I mean there's there's pros and

1216
01:17:23,479 --> 01:17:26,720
Speaker 1: cons to how the system works now, UM, you know,

1217
01:17:26,720 --> 01:17:30,679
Speaker 1: and I imagine another thing with having Special Forces Branch

1218
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:35,200
Speaker 1: for officers is UM back in the day and I mean,

1219
01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:38,200
Speaker 1: you tell me what you experienced, Jim, But without having

1220
01:17:38,360 --> 01:17:41,479
Speaker 1: Special Forces Branch, I imagine you could end up with

1221
01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:45,639
Speaker 1: s F company and battalion and group commanders that don't

1222
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:48,920
Speaker 1: have any O d A experience. And that's kind of scary. UM.

1223
01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:54,519
Speaker 1: If that's the case, that could happen. Although mostly SF

1224
01:17:54,680 --> 01:17:58,200
Speaker 1: was like a ghetto and once you're in it, you're

1225
01:17:58,240 --> 01:18:04,160
Speaker 1: in it because nobody wanted to leave, and and no

1226
01:18:04,360 --> 01:18:08,960
Speaker 1: career has wanted to join, you know, so you could

1227
01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:11,880
Speaker 1: get left in there. One of one of our best

1228
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:15,680
Speaker 1: eight team commanders when I first joined first group, was

1229
01:18:15,720 --> 01:18:19,160
Speaker 1: a Medical Service Corps officer and he wasn't going back

1230
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:21,479
Speaker 1: to the Medical Service Corps now that he could help it.

1231
01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:25,760
Speaker 1: Well yeah today, Uh, I guess the system is is

1232
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:29,439
Speaker 1: certainly improved UM over the years. UM. We still have

1233
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:32,880
Speaker 1: problems though with with retention, UM A lot of turnover

1234
01:18:33,120 --> 01:18:38,040
Speaker 1: guys leaving, UM getting out of the military entirely. UM.

1235
01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:40,799
Speaker 1: So the teams, I mean, we all wish that teams

1236
01:18:40,800 --> 01:18:44,479
Speaker 1: could stay intact and relatively intact for you know, ten years,

1237
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:48,080
Speaker 1: but just you know the way the military works, Um,

1238
01:18:48,120 --> 01:18:53,160
Speaker 1: it's just not possible. Yeah, and a lot of it,

1239
01:18:53,840 --> 01:18:56,639
Speaker 1: you know a lot of what's a lot of In fact,

1240
01:18:56,720 --> 01:18:59,559
Speaker 1: I would say almost everything that's wrong with s IF

1241
01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:03,360
Speaker 1: as a result of some Pentagon policy that applies to

1242
01:19:03,400 --> 01:19:07,040
Speaker 1: the entire army that shouldn't apply to SF. Yes, yeah,

1243
01:19:07,280 --> 01:19:10,559
Speaker 1: i'd agree. I'm gonna I'm gonna stop talking at that

1244
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:13,160
Speaker 1: point because you guys have got stuff to do. No,

1245
01:19:13,320 --> 01:19:16,080
Speaker 1: we really, we really appreciated and for the audience you

1246
01:19:16,080 --> 01:19:19,000
Speaker 1: could see. I believe most of Jim's eight books are

1247
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:22,320
Speaker 1: volba on Amazon. Um, anything that that you want to

1248
01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:26,000
Speaker 1: all are they all? Are the books excellent? And anything

1249
01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:28,400
Speaker 1: that you want to promote Before we wrap this up, Jim,

1250
01:19:28,560 --> 01:19:33,040
Speaker 1: great having you on. Well, uh, just keep an eye

1251
01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:37,240
Speaker 1: out for that SF relationship to the Mountainyard documentary. I

1252
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:39,280
Speaker 1: don't think it's gonna be good. Yeah, thanks for telling

1253
01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:41,559
Speaker 1: me about that. And you know, when the when the

1254
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:44,679
Speaker 1: director of the film is ready to do some promotion,

1255
01:19:44,760 --> 01:19:46,400
Speaker 1: please put him in touch with me and we we'd

1256
01:19:46,439 --> 01:19:48,479
Speaker 1: love to have him on the podcast to talk about

1257
01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:52,240
Speaker 1: about the film. That'd be great. I will definitely do.

1258
01:19:52,360 --> 01:19:55,160
Speaker 1: And um And for listeners, what what we've been talking

1259
01:19:55,200 --> 01:19:57,320
Speaker 1: about a lot on this show is h The Devil's

1260
01:19:57,320 --> 01:20:00,360
Speaker 1: Secret Name by Jim Morris. UM. The stuff that we've

1261
01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:04,439
Speaker 1: been talking about in Lebanon, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam, in the

1262
01:20:04,439 --> 01:20:08,320
Speaker 1: Mountain Yards, it's all in Jim's book, The Devil's Secret Name.

1263
01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:10,280
Speaker 1: And then of course his other book about his time

1264
01:20:10,320 --> 01:20:14,599
Speaker 1: as a as a Special Forces officer is called War Story. UM.

1265
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:17,479
Speaker 1: And there's a handful of other books that Jim's written,

1266
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:18,920
Speaker 1: as I and said, you can find them on the

1267
01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:24,120
Speaker 1: Amazon as well. All right, get you later, guys, Thank you, Jim,

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01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:29,360
Speaker 1: Thanks you have a good afternoon. Yeah, YouTube take care.

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01:20:31,439 --> 01:20:33,800
Speaker 1: So as as we kind of hinted at there for you, guys,

1270
01:20:33,800 --> 01:20:36,599
Speaker 1: were recording two episodes today with Thanksgiving coming up, so

1271
01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:38,840
Speaker 1: you know, to tease that out the next episode you're

1272
01:20:38,840 --> 01:20:41,080
Speaker 1: gonna hears J. T. Patton who I gotta get on.

1273
01:20:41,160 --> 01:20:44,479
Speaker 1: But wrapping things up, be sure to check out Create Club,

1274
01:20:44,880 --> 01:20:48,680
Speaker 1: that long anticipated collaboration watch that we did with NFW

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Speaker 1: Watches that is in the latest premium crate. We have

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Speaker 1: different tiers of membership depending on how prepared you want

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Speaker 1: to be. Gift options those are available as well. Scott

1278
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Speaker 1: Whittner from the load out Room and the guys are

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Speaker 1: currently working on bringing you custom products in everything from

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Speaker 1: It's a club for men by men. You can check

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Speaker 1: that all out at Create Club dot Us. Once again,

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Speaker 1: that's Create Club dot us for you dog owners. Many

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Speaker 1: of you know by now our partnership with Kuna, who

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Speaker 1: is a team of trained canine handlers picking out a

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Speaker 1: box fery dog each month of healthy treats and training aids.

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Speaker 1: It's custom built through your dog's size and age as well.

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Speaker 1: The products are US sourced, all natural, and they not

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Speaker 1: only promote a healthy diet, but also promote being active

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Speaker 1: with your dogs. So whether we're talking to pitbull or

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Speaker 1: at Chihuahua, this is just what you're looking for. You

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Speaker 1: can see all of that at Kuna dot Dog. It's

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Speaker 1: Of course, that's spelled c U N A dot d

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Speaker 1: O G. Also, as a reminder for those listening, for

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Speaker 1: a limited time, you can receive a fifty percent discounted

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Speaker 1: membership to the spec Ops Channel, our channel that offers

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Speaker 1: the most exclusive shows, documentaries, and interviews covering the most

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Speaker 1: exciting military content today. The spec Ops channel premier show,

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Speaker 1: Training Cell follows former Special Operations Forces as they participate

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Speaker 1: in the most advanced training in the country, everything from

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Speaker 1: shooting schools, defensive driving, jungle and winter warfare, climbing, and

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Speaker 1: much more. Again, you can watch this content by subscribing

1304
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Speaker 1: to the spec Ops Channel at spec ops channel dot

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Speaker 1: com and take advantage of a limited time offer of

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Speaker 1: off your membership that's only four a month. We appreciate

1307
01:22:46,320 --> 01:22:49,160
Speaker 1: checking this out huge thanks to Jim Morris, and I

1308
01:22:49,280 --> 01:22:51,439
Speaker 1: of course have to say is we're wrapping this up

1309
01:22:51,880 --> 01:22:55,880
Speaker 1: a very half happy Thanksgiving to all of you guys, uh,

1310
01:22:56,560 --> 01:23:00,599
Speaker 1: especially any of you stationed overseas. I don't think I've

1311
01:23:00,640 --> 01:23:03,320
Speaker 1: ever had Thanksgiving in my life that I didn't spend

1312
01:23:03,320 --> 01:23:06,200
Speaker 1: with my family, so I can't even relate what it's

1313
01:23:06,240 --> 01:23:09,479
Speaker 1: like to be overseas and uh, you know, fighting for

1314
01:23:09,520 --> 01:23:12,519
Speaker 1: our freedom and not being able to spend that special

1315
01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:16,280
Speaker 1: day with your family. So I appreciate sacrifice. I know

1316
01:23:16,439 --> 01:23:19,280
Speaker 1: all of us at the site and the podcast here

1317
01:23:19,320 --> 01:23:23,559
Speaker 1: do as well. So um yeah, hang in there, stay strong,

1318
01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:26,520
Speaker 1: and for all of you have been very happy Thanksgiving.

1319
01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:30,120
Speaker 1: Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at soft rep Radio.

1320
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:33,519
Speaker 1: And yes we're about to record with Chapkeep Patton, but

1321
01:23:33,680 --> 01:23:37,840
Speaker 1: you're not to wait bil Friday to hear that you've

1322
01:23:37,880 --> 01:23:42,240
Speaker 1: been listening to Self Rep Radio. New episodes up every

1323
01:23:42,280 --> 01:23:46,360
Speaker 1: Wednesday and Friday. Follow the show on Instagram and Twitter

1324
01:23:46,720 --> 01:24:02,480
Speaker 1: at self rep Radio