1 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:23,850 Speaker 1: Pushkin. It's half past nine at night on the twenty 2 00:00:23,890 --> 00:00:28,050 Speaker 1: second of September nineteen ninety nine, and middle aged dad 3 00:00:28,250 --> 00:00:31,690 Speaker 1: Alexe is heading home after a long day at work. 4 00:00:32,530 --> 00:00:35,370 Speaker 1: He lives in the city of Razan, not too far 5 00:00:35,410 --> 00:00:39,930 Speaker 1: from Moscow, and like all Russians, he's on high alert. 6 00:00:40,650 --> 00:00:44,610 Speaker 1: Bombs have been detonated at night in four residential apartment 7 00:00:44,650 --> 00:00:50,090 Speaker 1: blocks across the country this month, killing some three hundred people. 8 00:00:51,370 --> 00:00:56,210 Speaker 1: Everyone is terrified. Volunteers take on night watch shifts, and 9 00:00:56,330 --> 00:00:59,610 Speaker 1: some people choose to sleep on the streets rather than 10 00:00:59,690 --> 00:01:04,450 Speaker 1: risk being killed in their beds. No one has taken 11 00:01:04,490 --> 00:01:10,570 Speaker 1: responsibility for the attacks, but Chechen militants are blamed. Chechnio 12 00:01:10,730 --> 00:01:13,770 Speaker 1: is a republic down in the south of Russia, much 13 00:01:13,810 --> 00:01:17,370 Speaker 1: closer to Iran and Turkey than to Moscow. There's a 14 00:01:17,450 --> 00:01:26,690 Speaker 1: violent struggle for independence there and acts of terrorism. Six 15 00:01:26,770 --> 00:01:30,450 Speaker 1: days on from the last explosion, Alexey spots a white 16 00:01:30,770 --> 00:01:36,570 Speaker 1: larder car parked outside his apartment block in Razan. Why 17 00:01:36,770 --> 00:01:39,970 Speaker 1: are the last two digits of the number plate obscured? 18 00:01:40,250 --> 00:01:40,850 Speaker 2: He wanders. 19 00:01:41,730 --> 00:01:46,250 Speaker 1: As Alexey watches, a man bursts out of the apartment 20 00:01:46,290 --> 00:01:53,970 Speaker 1: block basement and into the car, which speeds away, Alexey 21 00:01:54,090 --> 00:01:58,810 Speaker 1: calls the police. In the basement, they find three sacks 22 00:01:58,850 --> 00:02:02,890 Speaker 1: of white powder and a ticking timer set for dawn. 23 00:02:04,290 --> 00:02:08,490 Speaker 1: The white powder appears to be hexagon, a military grade 24 00:02:08,530 --> 00:02:11,690 Speaker 1: explosive used in at least one of the previous bombings. 25 00:02:13,370 --> 00:02:18,210 Speaker 1: Terrified people stream onto the street as the building is evacuated. 26 00:02:22,890 --> 00:02:27,010 Speaker 1: The device is safely detonated, and the residents, shocked and 27 00:02:27,090 --> 00:02:30,850 Speaker 1: frightened but glad to be alive, returned to their homes. 28 00:02:31,610 --> 00:02:36,010 Speaker 1: The city has been saved, and Alexey is a hero. 29 00:02:38,530 --> 00:02:43,970 Speaker 1: The new Russian Prime Minister, Vladimir Putin is quick to 30 00:02:44,050 --> 00:02:47,890 Speaker 1: praise the vigilance of the Razan residents, and the following day, 31 00:02:48,290 --> 00:02:54,090 Speaker 1: September twenty third, he orders an airstrike on the Chechen capital, Groshni. 32 00:02:55,170 --> 00:02:59,570 Speaker 1: The Second Chechen War has begun and Putin sees his 33 00:02:59,770 --> 00:03:08,810 Speaker 1: popularity sore. But forty eight hours on, officials declared that 34 00:03:08,850 --> 00:03:12,850 Speaker 1: the as Anne bomb wasn't a terror attack but an 35 00:03:12,890 --> 00:03:17,970 Speaker 1: anti terror training exercise carried out by Russia's security service, 36 00:03:18,090 --> 00:03:22,570 Speaker 1: the FSB, and that white powder in the sax not 37 00:03:22,850 --> 00:03:28,610 Speaker 1: hexagon after all. But sugar, I'm Tim Harford and you're 38 00:03:28,690 --> 00:03:56,450 Speaker 1: listening to cautionary tales. Today, Vladimir Putin is regarded as 39 00:03:56,450 --> 00:03:59,970 Speaker 1: one of the most powerful and ruthless leaders in the world, 40 00:04:00,130 --> 00:04:03,610 Speaker 1: but back in nineteen ninety nine he was largely unknown. 41 00:04:04,890 --> 00:04:08,610 Speaker 1: The fifth prime minister in eighteen months, he wasn't expected 42 00:04:08,610 --> 00:04:12,290 Speaker 1: to last long, but his response to the attacks on 43 00:04:12,410 --> 00:04:18,210 Speaker 1: residential homes changed all that and soothed a nation paralyzed 44 00:04:18,210 --> 00:04:22,490 Speaker 1: by panic. To this day, no one can agree on 45 00:04:22,770 --> 00:04:27,610 Speaker 1: who planted the explosives or why was something missed back 46 00:04:27,650 --> 00:04:31,290 Speaker 1: in September nineteen ninety nine, and what happens when we 47 00:04:31,330 --> 00:04:36,570 Speaker 1: reassess events twenty five years on. Putin and the apartment 48 00:04:36,650 --> 00:04:39,770 Speaker 1: bombs is the subject of a new BBC podcast, The 49 00:04:39,810 --> 00:04:43,330 Speaker 1: History Bureau, from BBC Studios, and I am delighted to 50 00:04:43,370 --> 00:04:46,650 Speaker 1: say the presenter of the History Bureau, Helen and Merriman, 51 00:04:46,930 --> 00:04:50,090 Speaker 1: is here to tell us all about it. Helena, Hi, Tim, 52 00:04:50,370 --> 00:04:54,530 Speaker 1: Welcome to Accordingly Sales. Good to have you here. Vladimir Putin, 53 00:04:54,650 --> 00:04:58,970 Speaker 1: he has essentially been the Russian leader for a quarter 54 00:04:59,050 --> 00:05:03,490 Speaker 1: of a century. More than that, it is hard to 55 00:05:03,490 --> 00:05:06,610 Speaker 1: remember him not being in charge. But at the beginning 56 00:05:06,610 --> 00:05:09,610 Speaker 1: of your story he wasn't. So take us back to 57 00:05:09,650 --> 00:05:13,170 Speaker 1: the situation in Russia in the late nineteen nineties. 58 00:05:13,570 --> 00:05:17,130 Speaker 3: So this is eight years after the collapse of the 59 00:05:17,170 --> 00:05:21,050 Speaker 3: Soviet Union. You had this new leader, Boris Yeltsin, who 60 00:05:21,090 --> 00:05:25,330 Speaker 3: at first had been incredibly popular. He was charismatic, he 61 00:05:25,370 --> 00:05:29,850 Speaker 3: was flamboyant, and he'd promised to drag Russia into the 62 00:05:29,890 --> 00:05:35,130 Speaker 3: twenty first century, to embrace capitalism and to free prices overnight. 63 00:05:35,650 --> 00:05:38,410 Speaker 3: And that's what he did. But he went too far, 64 00:05:38,890 --> 00:05:41,690 Speaker 3: too fast. He called it shock therapy, and that's exactly 65 00:05:41,730 --> 00:05:46,930 Speaker 3: what it was. Inflation sawed over two thousand percent, which 66 00:05:46,970 --> 00:05:50,890 Speaker 3: meant that effectively people's savings were wiped and when you 67 00:05:50,930 --> 00:05:54,010 Speaker 3: look at footage and pictures from back then, you have 68 00:05:54,090 --> 00:05:58,250 Speaker 3: these incredible images of old people sitting in the streets 69 00:05:58,410 --> 00:06:00,970 Speaker 3: selling everything they had, even the fur coat that they 70 00:06:00,970 --> 00:06:04,450 Speaker 3: were wearing. The ruble collapsed, dollars were the only thing 71 00:06:04,490 --> 00:06:08,370 Speaker 3: that was worth anything. And so at the same time 72 00:06:08,410 --> 00:06:12,370 Speaker 3: as you had this huge disappointment in Yeltsin, you also 73 00:06:12,450 --> 00:06:16,610 Speaker 3: had this extraordinary rise in corruption, and that came along 74 00:06:16,770 --> 00:06:20,970 Speaker 3: really with this new breed of business tycoons, the oligarchs, 75 00:06:21,370 --> 00:06:24,890 Speaker 3: who were incredibly wealthy. They brought up former state owned 76 00:06:24,930 --> 00:06:27,930 Speaker 3: companies at knock down prices, and as they got richer, 77 00:06:27,970 --> 00:06:30,850 Speaker 3: they'd moved into politics and they were funneling money to 78 00:06:30,970 --> 00:06:33,770 Speaker 3: Yeltsin to keep them in power. But by the late 79 00:06:33,890 --> 00:06:40,050 Speaker 3: nineties there was this realization that Yeltsin was now old drunk. 80 00:06:40,290 --> 00:06:43,130 Speaker 3: When he was seen in public, he was slurring his words. 81 00:06:43,650 --> 00:06:45,650 Speaker 3: Everyone knew he had to go. 82 00:06:46,330 --> 00:06:48,850 Speaker 1: And the other thing that is going on at the 83 00:06:48,930 --> 00:06:51,490 Speaker 1: time is the war in Chechnya. 84 00:06:51,970 --> 00:06:54,290 Speaker 3: Again, it goes back to nineteen ninety one. The seeds 85 00:06:54,650 --> 00:06:57,330 Speaker 3: were planted in the collapse of the Soviet Union. You 86 00:06:57,370 --> 00:07:01,410 Speaker 3: have different states breaking free, and Chechnya, which is a 87 00:07:01,490 --> 00:07:03,970 Speaker 3: republic in the south of Russia, they wanted that too. 88 00:07:04,410 --> 00:07:07,930 Speaker 3: It was partly about identity, had a very different culture 89 00:07:08,010 --> 00:07:10,850 Speaker 3: to the rest of Russia, but it was also about 90 00:07:11,010 --> 00:07:15,890 Speaker 3: decades of very brutal treatment by successive Russian leaders. So 91 00:07:15,930 --> 00:07:20,410 Speaker 3: they declare their independence, but Russia has no intention of 92 00:07:20,490 --> 00:07:23,570 Speaker 3: letting Chechen egos, so it sends in the tanks and 93 00:07:23,610 --> 00:07:26,650 Speaker 3: you have this very brutal war which takes place between 94 00:07:26,690 --> 00:07:30,570 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety four nineteen ninety six. Thousands are killed, horrific 95 00:07:30,850 --> 00:07:34,130 Speaker 3: accounts of human rights abuses on both sides, and it 96 00:07:34,290 --> 00:07:38,570 Speaker 3: ends with a peace deal, but Chechens don't win their independence, 97 00:07:38,610 --> 00:07:42,770 Speaker 3: so there's this sense of unfinished business on both sides. 98 00:07:43,290 --> 00:07:46,930 Speaker 1: And with this is the backdrop, we have September nineteen 99 00:07:47,010 --> 00:07:50,690 Speaker 1: ninety nine and these bombs, and this is a terrifying 100 00:07:50,770 --> 00:07:52,730 Speaker 1: time to be an ordinary Russian. 101 00:07:53,810 --> 00:07:57,530 Speaker 3: And that's really down to the quite horrifying details of 102 00:07:57,570 --> 00:08:00,130 Speaker 3: exactly how these bombs play out. So the very first 103 00:08:00,170 --> 00:08:03,690 Speaker 3: one is on September fourth, in a very remote town 104 00:08:03,730 --> 00:08:07,250 Speaker 3: called Boynask, which is thousands of miles from Moscow. It's 105 00:08:07,330 --> 00:08:09,250 Speaker 3: nine in the evening. People have been watching foot will 106 00:08:09,290 --> 00:08:13,690 Speaker 3: match on TV. A truck bomb explodes, sixty four people 107 00:08:13,730 --> 00:08:17,530 Speaker 3: are killed, and it makes the news, but it's not 108 00:08:17,610 --> 00:08:19,890 Speaker 3: a huge story because this city is quite near the 109 00:08:19,890 --> 00:08:22,810 Speaker 3: border with Chechhna. There's been fighting in the past, so 110 00:08:23,850 --> 00:08:27,650 Speaker 3: there's a few headlines. The country then moves on. It's 111 00:08:27,690 --> 00:08:31,970 Speaker 3: really the second bomb that gets people so scared, because 112 00:08:32,010 --> 00:08:34,010 Speaker 3: this bomb goes off in Moscow and this is the 113 00:08:34,010 --> 00:08:37,490 Speaker 3: early hours of the morning. The footage is horrifying. It's 114 00:08:37,890 --> 00:08:41,290 Speaker 3: that the front of the apartment has been pulled off. 115 00:08:41,370 --> 00:08:43,450 Speaker 3: It's almost like looking at a picture of a doll's house. 116 00:08:43,530 --> 00:08:46,570 Speaker 3: You can see how lives would have been lived in 117 00:08:46,610 --> 00:08:50,330 Speaker 3: the apartment before this bomb exploded. Ninety four people are killed, 118 00:08:50,810 --> 00:08:53,010 Speaker 3: and because it's Moscow, the story really breaks out. 119 00:08:53,530 --> 00:08:55,250 Speaker 1: And that's not the last one exactly. 120 00:08:55,290 --> 00:08:58,170 Speaker 3: So there's a third bomb. This is the thirteenth of September. 121 00:08:58,210 --> 00:09:01,570 Speaker 3: Five in the morning. Over one hundred people killed in 122 00:09:01,570 --> 00:09:03,970 Speaker 3: that third bomb. And this is when the panic really 123 00:09:04,010 --> 00:09:06,050 Speaker 3: sets in. These bombs are going off in the middle 124 00:09:06,050 --> 00:09:08,010 Speaker 3: of the night, when people are asleep and when the 125 00:09:08,050 --> 00:09:10,810 Speaker 3: apartments are at their full and then it's only a 126 00:09:10,890 --> 00:09:14,410 Speaker 3: few days later after that that on the sixteenth of September, 127 00:09:14,610 --> 00:09:19,530 Speaker 3: this is in a town called Volgadonsk, the fourth bomb explodes. So, 128 00:09:19,890 --> 00:09:22,530 Speaker 3: just to summarize, over a period of just sixteen days, 129 00:09:22,930 --> 00:09:26,170 Speaker 3: four apartment buildings are blown up, killing around three hundred people. 130 00:09:26,610 --> 00:09:29,570 Speaker 3: One question on everyone's lips is who will be next? 131 00:09:29,770 --> 00:09:33,210 Speaker 1: Yeah, and well it seems that Razann will be next. 132 00:09:33,410 --> 00:09:35,530 Speaker 1: So tell us what happened to the residents of this 133 00:09:35,770 --> 00:09:38,050 Speaker 1: apartment block On the twenty second of September. 134 00:09:38,290 --> 00:09:40,730 Speaker 3: As you set out in your introduction, you have this 135 00:09:41,010 --> 00:09:44,410 Speaker 3: guy Alexi, who sees this white car very suspiciously parked 136 00:09:44,930 --> 00:09:47,570 Speaker 3: with this piece of paper covering part of the license plate. 137 00:09:47,970 --> 00:09:50,930 Speaker 3: You have the police who rush in find what appears 138 00:09:50,970 --> 00:09:53,370 Speaker 3: to be a bomb, three sacks full of white powder, 139 00:09:54,330 --> 00:09:58,770 Speaker 3: and they evacuate the apartment building incredibly quickly. I mean 140 00:09:58,810 --> 00:10:02,930 Speaker 3: babies pulled out of bathtubs with just towels around them. 141 00:10:02,970 --> 00:10:06,090 Speaker 3: People race out of this apartment in their dressing gown 142 00:10:06,130 --> 00:10:10,050 Speaker 3: and pajamas. They spend the whole night in this local cinema. 143 00:10:10,210 --> 00:10:13,330 Speaker 3: They're terrified. And what happens the next day is you 144 00:10:13,370 --> 00:10:16,170 Speaker 3: then have a man hunt for the people who did it. 145 00:10:16,570 --> 00:10:19,930 Speaker 3: They block off the roads, they stop trained, the airport 146 00:10:20,010 --> 00:10:23,570 Speaker 3: is shut down, and there's this extraordinary moment where a 147 00:10:23,690 --> 00:10:27,330 Speaker 3: phone call comes into the Risan phone exchange. So there's 148 00:10:27,330 --> 00:10:29,530 Speaker 3: a man at a payphone in Razann who wants to 149 00:10:29,570 --> 00:10:33,290 Speaker 3: be connected to a number outside the city. So the operator, 150 00:10:33,290 --> 00:10:36,610 Speaker 3: a female operator, is sitting there and she connects the 151 00:10:36,650 --> 00:10:39,610 Speaker 3: call and then she does something she's not meant to do. 152 00:10:39,770 --> 00:10:43,530 Speaker 3: She listens in and she hears this man in the 153 00:10:43,570 --> 00:10:45,290 Speaker 3: middle of a city, in the middle of a man hunt, 154 00:10:45,330 --> 00:10:48,690 Speaker 3: saying we can't get out, the city's being shut down. 155 00:10:48,890 --> 00:10:49,930 Speaker 4: Help us, what should we do? 156 00:10:50,370 --> 00:10:51,850 Speaker 3: And she hears a voice on the other end saying, 157 00:10:51,890 --> 00:10:53,570 Speaker 3: you've got to split up, you have to get out. 158 00:10:54,250 --> 00:10:57,970 Speaker 3: So unsurprisingly she thinks this is pretty suspicious. She writes 159 00:10:58,010 --> 00:11:01,290 Speaker 3: the number down. She passes the number along to local police. 160 00:11:01,770 --> 00:11:04,850 Speaker 3: Given that everyone is assuming that the bombs of the 161 00:11:04,890 --> 00:11:07,650 Speaker 3: work of Chechen militants, you'd assume that this phone number 162 00:11:08,010 --> 00:11:11,250 Speaker 3: would go to a number and yeah, but it doesn't. 163 00:11:11,650 --> 00:11:15,610 Speaker 3: It goes to the number belonging to the FSB, Russia's 164 00:11:15,610 --> 00:11:16,970 Speaker 3: Internal Security Service. 165 00:11:17,450 --> 00:11:21,690 Speaker 1: This is incredible. So the policer now have this lead, 166 00:11:22,090 --> 00:11:24,810 Speaker 1: which is a very weird lead. Maybe it's the FSB. 167 00:11:25,010 --> 00:11:27,970 Speaker 1: That's a very strange tip off to get. Then they 168 00:11:27,970 --> 00:11:31,930 Speaker 1: find the car abandoned exactly. Yeah, so then what they. 169 00:11:31,930 --> 00:11:35,450 Speaker 3: Managed to track down two men who look just like 170 00:11:35,730 --> 00:11:38,890 Speaker 3: the drawings of the would be bombers. They arrest them 171 00:11:39,530 --> 00:11:42,930 Speaker 3: and then here's where things get even weirder. The men say, 172 00:11:43,690 --> 00:11:46,770 Speaker 3: we're not bombers, we're FSP and they take out their 173 00:11:46,810 --> 00:11:48,410 Speaker 3: ID cards to prove it. 174 00:11:49,410 --> 00:11:54,730 Speaker 1: So this is very odd, quite suspicious. What is the 175 00:11:54,730 --> 00:11:55,490 Speaker 1: official reaction. 176 00:11:56,090 --> 00:11:59,050 Speaker 3: The official reaction is nothing for two days. For two days, 177 00:11:59,050 --> 00:12:02,770 Speaker 3: there's silence. Then on the twenty fourth of September, Russia's 178 00:12:02,770 --> 00:12:06,570 Speaker 3: Interior minister is giving a speech to police officers, civil 179 00:12:06,610 --> 00:12:10,490 Speaker 3: servants about this wave of bomb attacks, and he's listing 180 00:12:10,490 --> 00:12:13,610 Speaker 3: all the recent successes in the fight against terrorism, and 181 00:12:13,650 --> 00:12:16,410 Speaker 3: then he gets to Rizanne and he says he's very 182 00:12:16,450 --> 00:12:19,770 Speaker 3: proud of what people in Rizanne did, and he doesn't 183 00:12:19,770 --> 00:12:22,450 Speaker 3: mention the phone call or the men with the FSB 184 00:12:22,690 --> 00:12:26,050 Speaker 3: ID cards. And then thirty minutes after he makes that 185 00:12:26,090 --> 00:12:29,690 Speaker 3: announcement talking about how people in Razun stopped this terrorist attack, 186 00:12:30,370 --> 00:12:33,330 Speaker 3: the head of the FSB mean called Nikolai Patruschev. He 187 00:12:33,370 --> 00:12:35,850 Speaker 3: appears in the lobby of the same building and a 188 00:12:35,930 --> 00:12:39,690 Speaker 3: journalist sees him asks him a question about Razanne. So 189 00:12:39,770 --> 00:12:43,050 Speaker 3: Patrichev says, there was no bomb. The white powder in 190 00:12:43,090 --> 00:12:46,330 Speaker 3: the sax wasn't hexagon, but it was sugar. This was 191 00:12:46,410 --> 00:12:49,370 Speaker 3: just a training exercise, a training exercise that the people 192 00:12:49,410 --> 00:12:54,450 Speaker 3: in Rizanne passed with flying colors. And a few days later, 193 00:12:54,490 --> 00:12:57,770 Speaker 3: the telephone operator is even given a color television as 194 00:12:57,810 --> 00:12:58,490 Speaker 3: a prize. 195 00:12:59,090 --> 00:13:00,770 Speaker 1: Well, it's all very wonderful. What do the people of 196 00:13:00,850 --> 00:13:01,890 Speaker 1: Rizann think about that. 197 00:13:01,810 --> 00:13:05,210 Speaker 3: Well, unsurprisingly, they don't believe a word of it. Even 198 00:13:05,250 --> 00:13:09,250 Speaker 3: the local FSB are completely confused because they tested the 199 00:13:09,250 --> 00:13:12,050 Speaker 3: powder and they found that it was hexagon. But a 200 00:13:12,090 --> 00:13:15,890 Speaker 3: few days later, something happens and they changed their story 201 00:13:16,370 --> 00:13:19,170 Speaker 3: and they say, oh, we got it wrong. The powder 202 00:13:19,210 --> 00:13:22,330 Speaker 3: in the sax wasn't hexagon, it was sugar. Our testing 203 00:13:22,370 --> 00:13:24,570 Speaker 3: equipment must have been contaminated in Chechnia. 204 00:13:24,930 --> 00:13:27,210 Speaker 1: Well, I'm not totally surprised that they didn't buy this, 205 00:13:27,370 --> 00:13:32,170 Speaker 1: But Prime Minister Vladimir Putin seems to he orders military 206 00:13:32,170 --> 00:13:36,090 Speaker 1: strikes against Chechnya. Is that going to be enough to 207 00:13:36,090 --> 00:13:39,250 Speaker 1: stop people asking questions about the strange goings on in Rasann? 208 00:13:39,810 --> 00:13:53,890 Speaker 1: We will find out after the break. We're back and 209 00:13:53,930 --> 00:13:56,810 Speaker 1: I'm talking to Helena Merriman. She is the host of 210 00:13:57,050 --> 00:14:01,810 Speaker 1: Putin and the Apartment bombs. So, Helena, despite Chechnya denying 211 00:14:01,850 --> 00:14:06,050 Speaker 1: responsibility for the apartment block attacks and despite the Razann 212 00:14:06,130 --> 00:14:09,650 Speaker 1: suspects turning out to be the FSB, Prime Minister Vladimir 213 00:14:09,650 --> 00:14:15,090 Speaker 1: Putin seeks revenge against Chechnya. So what happened and how 214 00:14:15,130 --> 00:14:17,010 Speaker 1: did it work out for his popularity? 215 00:14:17,690 --> 00:14:21,370 Speaker 3: So the day after this thwarted bomb in Razan, Putin 216 00:14:21,410 --> 00:14:25,810 Speaker 3: sends jetplanes to bomb Grosny, the capitol, And at the 217 00:14:25,890 --> 00:14:30,090 Speaker 3: time Putin was not well known by the Russian public, 218 00:14:30,170 --> 00:14:33,330 Speaker 3: So back in August, his popularity ratings his approval ratings 219 00:14:33,370 --> 00:14:37,010 Speaker 3: for the presidency were just two percent. You know, he 220 00:14:37,130 --> 00:14:40,130 Speaker 3: was short, he had quite a forgettable face. There was 221 00:14:40,170 --> 00:14:44,490 Speaker 3: this phrasing Russian Syria misca, which means gray mouse, that 222 00:14:44,810 --> 00:14:47,690 Speaker 3: people used to describe him because he was just thought 223 00:14:47,730 --> 00:14:51,530 Speaker 3: to be so uncharismatic. The only thing people knew about 224 00:14:51,570 --> 00:14:54,290 Speaker 3: him is that he'd once been head of the FSB, 225 00:14:54,490 --> 00:14:57,410 Speaker 3: Russia's internal security service, and that was it. 226 00:14:57,690 --> 00:14:59,690 Speaker 1: So it's not so much that he's hated, more that 227 00:14:59,970 --> 00:15:03,330 Speaker 1: nobody even really knows who he is. He's just underestimated 228 00:15:03,370 --> 00:15:04,490 Speaker 1: and overlooked. 229 00:15:04,250 --> 00:15:07,250 Speaker 3: Exactly that, And as the fifth prime minister in eighteen months, 230 00:15:07,290 --> 00:15:09,650 Speaker 3: people think, well, we barely need to get to know 231 00:15:09,730 --> 00:15:13,090 Speaker 3: him because he probably won't last. But instead, around this time, 232 00:15:13,130 --> 00:15:18,730 Speaker 3: Putin undergoes this extraordinary transformation from this former FSB guy 233 00:15:18,770 --> 00:15:21,970 Speaker 3: in a suit to a man who's suddenly wearing military uniform, 234 00:15:22,490 --> 00:15:26,970 Speaker 3: jumping on planes, giving these hearts thumping speeches to soldiers 235 00:15:26,970 --> 00:15:30,290 Speaker 3: on the front line, and his popularity saulce. So it 236 00:15:30,330 --> 00:15:33,770 Speaker 3: goes from two percent back in the summer to just 237 00:15:33,810 --> 00:15:36,810 Speaker 3: a few months later, after the bombs and this newor 238 00:15:36,850 --> 00:15:40,170 Speaker 3: in Chechnia, his rating is already over forty. 239 00:15:39,850 --> 00:15:43,330 Speaker 1: Percent, and he's got this really punchy style. Suddenly he 240 00:15:43,490 --> 00:15:46,570 Speaker 1: calls the bombers rabid animals, and it says, even if 241 00:15:46,570 --> 00:15:48,850 Speaker 1: they hide in the toilets, will catch them there. It's 242 00:15:48,890 --> 00:15:51,290 Speaker 1: a very different style from this gray mouse in a 243 00:15:51,330 --> 00:15:51,890 Speaker 1: gray suit. 244 00:15:52,050 --> 00:15:54,650 Speaker 3: It's the language of the gutter, and people love it. 245 00:15:54,770 --> 00:15:57,410 Speaker 3: And he sees the reaction and he sees that people 246 00:15:57,450 --> 00:16:00,090 Speaker 3: love it, and he takes his cues from that and 247 00:16:00,130 --> 00:16:03,290 Speaker 3: really leans into this image of the vengeful military guy. 248 00:16:03,730 --> 00:16:07,490 Speaker 1: And there is now a war in Chechnya, of course, 249 00:16:07,810 --> 00:16:09,210 Speaker 1: that is going to absorb a lot of a t 250 00:16:10,130 --> 00:16:13,050 Speaker 1: is anybody still asking questions about the apartment bombs. 251 00:16:13,250 --> 00:16:17,650 Speaker 3: Western journalists are focused on two stories now, which is 252 00:16:17,650 --> 00:16:21,050 Speaker 3: the rise of Putin and this new war. But journalists 253 00:16:21,050 --> 00:16:25,690 Speaker 3: in Russia are asking these rather uncomfortable questions. And one 254 00:16:25,690 --> 00:16:28,170 Speaker 3: of the first networks to really get at this story 255 00:16:28,930 --> 00:16:31,210 Speaker 3: is a TV network called NTV. 256 00:16:31,330 --> 00:16:31,410 Speaker 2: SO. 257 00:16:31,490 --> 00:16:33,890 Speaker 3: This is a network that had been founded a few 258 00:16:33,930 --> 00:16:37,250 Speaker 3: years earlier. It was broadly modeled on the BBC and CNN, 259 00:16:37,690 --> 00:16:39,530 Speaker 3: and it was one of the first to make Western 260 00:16:39,570 --> 00:16:43,170 Speaker 3: style documentaries and discussion programs. For example, one of their 261 00:16:43,210 --> 00:16:46,650 Speaker 3: shows was a satirical puppet show called Cookley, which was 262 00:16:46,690 --> 00:16:49,450 Speaker 3: a bit like Britain's Splitting Image or a sort of 263 00:16:49,850 --> 00:16:52,570 Speaker 3: puppet version of Saturday Night Live in America. 264 00:16:52,850 --> 00:16:54,330 Speaker 4: And the ratings were huge. 265 00:16:54,770 --> 00:16:58,370 Speaker 3: I mean, almost half the country, half of Russia would 266 00:16:58,410 --> 00:17:01,410 Speaker 3: tune in to watch it, so in ratings terms, I 267 00:17:01,410 --> 00:17:03,930 Speaker 3: mean this was the equivalent of the American Super Bowl. 268 00:17:04,210 --> 00:17:06,130 Speaker 3: And actually it had been around for a few years 269 00:17:06,130 --> 00:17:10,050 Speaker 3: in Yeltsin. He didn't really mind it, but Putin hated it, 270 00:17:10,690 --> 00:17:15,170 Speaker 3: and that's probably because every week the star puppet of 271 00:17:15,170 --> 00:17:18,930 Speaker 3: the show was a puppet based on Vladimir Putin, which 272 00:17:18,930 --> 00:17:22,290 Speaker 3: depicted him as a baby, often a very ugly baby, 273 00:17:22,770 --> 00:17:25,450 Speaker 3: and Putin put a huge amount of pressure on that 274 00:17:25,530 --> 00:17:28,530 Speaker 3: TV show to get rid of the Putin puppet, but 275 00:17:28,610 --> 00:17:30,050 Speaker 3: they didn't, and they kept going with. 276 00:17:30,050 --> 00:17:33,210 Speaker 1: It, and that the theme was that this baby had 277 00:17:33,210 --> 00:17:34,810 Speaker 1: all of its needs taken care of by the. 278 00:17:34,850 --> 00:17:39,450 Speaker 3: Oligarchs, exactly that the oligarchs were essentially manipulating him and 279 00:17:39,610 --> 00:17:43,890 Speaker 3: orchestrating everything around him. Journalists NTV start digging into the 280 00:17:43,930 --> 00:17:47,730 Speaker 3: apartment bombing story, asking these awkward questions. They don't let 281 00:17:47,770 --> 00:17:52,130 Speaker 3: it go, and they decide in March, just a few 282 00:17:52,170 --> 00:17:56,650 Speaker 3: weeks before the presidential election, of which Vladimir Putin is 283 00:17:56,690 --> 00:18:01,170 Speaker 3: now a candidate. They decide to invite the FSP into 284 00:18:01,210 --> 00:18:04,890 Speaker 3: their studios to take part in a live chat show 285 00:18:05,570 --> 00:18:08,890 Speaker 3: where they would invite residents from Razan to face off the. 286 00:18:08,810 --> 00:18:11,930 Speaker 1: Fs So, just to be clear, Plutin was prime minister 287 00:18:12,010 --> 00:18:16,570 Speaker 1: and now he's running for president, which is a more powerful. 288 00:18:16,130 --> 00:18:20,090 Speaker 3: Position exactly because on the thirty first of December ninety nine, 289 00:18:20,530 --> 00:18:24,490 Speaker 3: Boris Yeltsin makes this shock announcement where he resigns early 290 00:18:25,290 --> 00:18:28,970 Speaker 3: and Vladimir Putin is made acting president. He's already become 291 00:18:29,010 --> 00:18:30,450 Speaker 3: incredibly powerful. 292 00:18:30,090 --> 00:18:32,210 Speaker 1: And he's standing in the election, and yeah, you get 293 00:18:32,210 --> 00:18:34,010 Speaker 1: this crazy sounding. 294 00:18:33,730 --> 00:18:36,770 Speaker 3: Show exactly, and this crazy sounding show is just three 295 00:18:37,050 --> 00:18:39,210 Speaker 3: days before the presidential election. 296 00:18:39,730 --> 00:18:42,050 Speaker 1: This is incredible. I mean it sounds like Jerry Springer, 297 00:18:42,130 --> 00:18:44,610 Speaker 1: only with the CIA involved. I mean it's extraordinary. You've 298 00:18:44,650 --> 00:18:47,570 Speaker 1: got the FSB and you've got the residence, and so 299 00:18:47,610 --> 00:18:48,570 Speaker 1: how does that go down? 300 00:18:49,170 --> 00:18:50,210 Speaker 4: When you watch it? 301 00:18:50,210 --> 00:18:52,730 Speaker 3: It really took me back to being a teenager and 302 00:18:52,770 --> 00:18:56,810 Speaker 3: watching those kind of tabloid daytime TV Jerry Springer shows 303 00:18:56,810 --> 00:18:58,690 Speaker 3: where you'd have someone saying, you know, did you sleep 304 00:18:58,690 --> 00:19:01,410 Speaker 3: with my boyfriend? But here the question is did you 305 00:19:01,450 --> 00:19:04,690 Speaker 3: try and bomb my apartment. So on one side the 306 00:19:04,730 --> 00:19:08,210 Speaker 3: studio you have these ordinary men and women, these people 307 00:19:08,210 --> 00:19:11,170 Speaker 3: that were in that apartment building in Razann, and then 308 00:19:11,210 --> 00:19:13,970 Speaker 3: the other side you have these FSB men in suits, 309 00:19:14,570 --> 00:19:19,930 Speaker 3: and it's extraordinary hour of TV where resident after residents 310 00:19:19,970 --> 00:19:23,410 Speaker 3: stands up and they're shouting at the FSB. They're saying, 311 00:19:23,890 --> 00:19:27,450 Speaker 3: how on earth can you expect us to believe that 312 00:19:27,690 --> 00:19:30,610 Speaker 3: this was just a training exercise when you were dragging 313 00:19:30,690 --> 00:19:33,130 Speaker 3: us out of our buildings in the middle of the night. 314 00:19:33,650 --> 00:19:36,010 Speaker 4: No one believes it, and the FSB. 315 00:19:36,290 --> 00:19:39,770 Speaker 3: Sit there and they say, well, this was a training exercise. 316 00:19:40,570 --> 00:19:44,210 Speaker 3: And there's this extraordinary moment where one of them holds up. 317 00:19:44,090 --> 00:19:47,770 Speaker 4: This brown cardboard bag. 318 00:19:47,530 --> 00:19:50,250 Speaker 3: That's been sort of cellotaped together. He holds it up 319 00:19:50,290 --> 00:19:52,170 Speaker 3: to the camera and he says, all the evidence is 320 00:19:52,210 --> 00:19:54,010 Speaker 3: in here, but we're never going to tell you what 321 00:19:54,050 --> 00:19:54,330 Speaker 3: it is. 322 00:19:54,650 --> 00:19:56,890 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure that went down very well. And there 323 00:19:56,930 --> 00:19:59,090 Speaker 1: was another moment where someone stands up and says, I'm 324 00:19:59,090 --> 00:20:02,850 Speaker 1: a resident, I think we have FSB are absolutely right, and. 325 00:20:02,810 --> 00:20:05,410 Speaker 3: You see everyone else looking at him saying, we don't 326 00:20:05,410 --> 00:20:06,130 Speaker 3: recognize this guy. 327 00:20:06,170 --> 00:20:07,410 Speaker 4: We've never seen him before. 328 00:20:07,210 --> 00:20:12,570 Speaker 3: So he's probably been put there by someone else. The 329 00:20:12,650 --> 00:20:17,450 Speaker 3: ratings were huge, and you have to wonder what the 330 00:20:17,530 --> 00:20:20,330 Speaker 3: fs being we're thinking by going on this show. And 331 00:20:20,370 --> 00:20:22,610 Speaker 3: you see the expression on their faces afterwards, I mean 332 00:20:22,650 --> 00:20:24,170 Speaker 3: they look completely shell shocked. 333 00:20:24,330 --> 00:20:27,930 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is unimaginable that this could happen in Russia. Now, 334 00:20:28,610 --> 00:20:30,770 Speaker 1: so how did we get from that degree of press 335 00:20:30,850 --> 00:20:34,130 Speaker 1: freedom to the current repression? What did Putin do? How 336 00:20:34,250 --> 00:20:36,650 Speaker 1: quickly did he respond to clamp down on this kind 337 00:20:36,650 --> 00:20:36,890 Speaker 1: of thing? 338 00:20:37,290 --> 00:20:39,010 Speaker 3: I mean, it's a great question because I think in 339 00:20:39,090 --> 00:20:43,370 Speaker 3: so many ways, this particular moment is where we first 340 00:20:43,490 --> 00:20:46,930 Speaker 3: see just how much Putin is going to make the 341 00:20:47,010 --> 00:20:50,090 Speaker 3: clampdown of the press a feature of the country. 342 00:20:50,130 --> 00:20:52,170 Speaker 1: He will create does not want this to happen again. 343 00:20:52,290 --> 00:20:54,130 Speaker 3: No, so I'm just a few days after that show, 344 00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:56,250 Speaker 3: there's a call from a government minister who says to 345 00:20:56,370 --> 00:20:59,450 Speaker 3: NTV the show will never be forgotten. A few weeks later, 346 00:20:59,690 --> 00:21:04,010 Speaker 3: FSB commando's break into NTV headquarters, they throw the owner 347 00:21:04,010 --> 00:21:06,970 Speaker 3: of NTV in prison, and it's then taken over by 348 00:21:06,970 --> 00:21:10,130 Speaker 3: a state owned company. And then just three days after 349 00:21:10,170 --> 00:21:11,850 Speaker 3: the show, Putin's elected president. 350 00:21:12,850 --> 00:21:15,770 Speaker 1: The rest of the world welcome him into the diplomatic fold. 351 00:21:15,930 --> 00:21:19,170 Speaker 3: Absolutely because the rest of the world. It seems like 352 00:21:19,210 --> 00:21:21,210 Speaker 3: a very neat story here, which is that first you 353 00:21:21,290 --> 00:21:25,130 Speaker 3: had Boris Yeltsin, who seemed to be moving Russia into 354 00:21:25,250 --> 00:21:28,930 Speaker 3: the Western orbit, and here you had Vladimir Putin, and 355 00:21:29,010 --> 00:21:31,130 Speaker 3: I think many Western leaders thought it would be a 356 00:21:31,130 --> 00:21:34,770 Speaker 3: continuation of the same. So Tony Blair phones him to 357 00:21:34,810 --> 00:21:39,130 Speaker 3: congratulate him. The following year, Putin goes to meet George W. 358 00:21:39,210 --> 00:21:42,050 Speaker 3: Bush at the White House and there's this very famous 359 00:21:42,090 --> 00:21:46,690 Speaker 3: exchange where an American journalist asks George W. Bush if 360 00:21:46,730 --> 00:21:49,530 Speaker 3: Putin can be trusted, and Bush comes up with that 361 00:21:49,650 --> 00:21:50,970 Speaker 3: very famous reply. 362 00:21:50,970 --> 00:21:53,450 Speaker 5: Now, I look the man in the eye. I found 363 00:21:53,490 --> 00:21:57,410 Speaker 5: it'd be very straightforward and trustworthy, and we had a 364 00:21:57,490 --> 00:22:02,810 Speaker 5: very good dialogue. I was able to get a sense 365 00:22:02,850 --> 00:22:03,370 Speaker 5: of his soul. 366 00:22:04,050 --> 00:22:07,170 Speaker 1: So it seems the conversation in the West at least 367 00:22:07,530 --> 00:22:12,250 Speaker 1: has long since moved on from the apartment bombs. But 368 00:22:12,290 --> 00:22:14,010 Speaker 1: people are still asking questions in Russia. 369 00:22:14,570 --> 00:22:19,050 Speaker 3: Absolutely in Russia, and also Russians who come to Britain 370 00:22:19,650 --> 00:22:21,650 Speaker 3: are still asking questions. And one of those is a 371 00:22:21,650 --> 00:22:23,290 Speaker 3: man called Boris Berezovski. 372 00:22:23,730 --> 00:22:24,610 Speaker 1: So tell me about him. 373 00:22:25,090 --> 00:22:28,330 Speaker 3: So he was one of the very first Russian oligarchs. 374 00:22:28,370 --> 00:22:35,210 Speaker 3: He was incredibly charismatic, he was confident, he was astonishingly wealthy, 375 00:22:35,730 --> 00:22:37,970 Speaker 3: but he had something that really gave him the edge. 376 00:22:37,970 --> 00:22:40,690 Speaker 3: So he didn't just have money, but he had influence 377 00:22:40,730 --> 00:22:43,730 Speaker 3: because he was a main shareholder in Channel one, which 378 00:22:43,810 --> 00:22:47,850 Speaker 3: was Russia's most watched TV channel, and he uses that 379 00:22:48,090 --> 00:22:51,370 Speaker 3: back in ninety nine to help Putin become presidents. So 380 00:22:51,450 --> 00:22:56,290 Speaker 3: he Berezovsky thinks of himself as a Russian kingmaker, but 381 00:22:56,330 --> 00:22:59,770 Speaker 3: as so often happens with the kingmakers, the kings eventually 382 00:22:59,850 --> 00:23:01,890 Speaker 3: turn against them, and that's what happens with Putin, who, 383 00:23:01,890 --> 00:23:04,090 Speaker 3: when he arrives in power, feels very threatened by the 384 00:23:04,170 --> 00:23:07,250 Speaker 3: oligarchs who helped get him there. He turns against Borozovsky. 385 00:23:07,330 --> 00:23:10,450 Speaker 3: He maneuvers Channel One out of his head and they're 386 00:23:10,490 --> 00:23:14,290 Speaker 3: locked into this bitter feud, and Berezovsky escapes to London 387 00:23:14,850 --> 00:23:17,290 Speaker 3: and he starts his life there in exile, and one 388 00:23:17,330 --> 00:23:19,690 Speaker 3: of the very first things he does is to fund 389 00:23:19,850 --> 00:23:23,610 Speaker 3: an investigation into the apartment bombs. He gives this press 390 00:23:23,610 --> 00:23:27,050 Speaker 3: conference and he also gives an interview to Newsnight to 391 00:23:27,090 --> 00:23:30,890 Speaker 3: the BBC where he accuses not only the FSB of 392 00:23:30,890 --> 00:23:34,170 Speaker 3: being involved in the apartment bombs, but says that Vladimir 393 00:23:34,250 --> 00:23:35,770 Speaker 3: Putin knew about them too. 394 00:23:36,730 --> 00:23:40,250 Speaker 1: How seriously do people take this former billionaire oligarch. 395 00:23:40,690 --> 00:23:44,730 Speaker 3: Not seriously at all, because here's a man who has 396 00:23:44,810 --> 00:23:48,530 Speaker 3: every reason to make these claims against Putin. He's Putin's 397 00:23:48,570 --> 00:23:52,770 Speaker 3: arch enemy. And so because Berezovsky is so closely tied 398 00:23:53,370 --> 00:23:56,450 Speaker 3: to these allegations that perhaps the FSB were involved in 399 00:23:56,490 --> 00:23:59,970 Speaker 3: the bombs, it almost discredits the theory from day one. 400 00:24:00,250 --> 00:24:02,690 Speaker 3: Because he's seen as tainted, no one believes him. 401 00:24:03,050 --> 00:24:04,890 Speaker 1: Well, he may be tainted, but he is not going 402 00:24:04,930 --> 00:24:09,010 Speaker 1: to give this up. Boris Berezovski asks people to investigate 403 00:24:09,250 --> 00:24:12,610 Speaker 1: on his behalf, and one of those people is shortly 404 00:24:12,690 --> 00:24:16,170 Speaker 1: to meet a very unpleasant end. We will find out 405 00:24:16,210 --> 00:24:31,810 Speaker 1: more after the break. We are back and I am 406 00:24:31,850 --> 00:24:35,650 Speaker 1: talking to Helena Merriman, the presenter of Putin and the 407 00:24:35,690 --> 00:24:38,650 Speaker 1: Apartment Bombs, which is the first series of a new 408 00:24:38,690 --> 00:24:42,650 Speaker 1: BBC podcast, The History Bureau. So Helena, tell me about 409 00:24:42,690 --> 00:24:44,250 Speaker 1: Alexander Litvinenko. 410 00:24:44,770 --> 00:24:48,810 Speaker 3: This is a name that people, particularly listeners in Britain 411 00:24:49,050 --> 00:24:52,010 Speaker 3: know because he was poisoned on the streets of London 412 00:24:52,730 --> 00:24:55,730 Speaker 3: and he died very slowly in the glare of the 413 00:24:55,770 --> 00:24:59,650 Speaker 3: media spotlight. But what I think most people won't know 414 00:24:59,970 --> 00:25:02,010 Speaker 3: is that he'd spent the last few years of his 415 00:25:02,050 --> 00:25:05,850 Speaker 3: life investigating the apartment bomb story. So he'd been in 416 00:25:05,890 --> 00:25:08,250 Speaker 3: the FSB since the nineties. He was part of this 417 00:25:08,290 --> 00:25:12,050 Speaker 3: special unit which investigated crime in Russia, and one of 418 00:25:12,090 --> 00:25:15,850 Speaker 3: his first jobs had been to monitor Boris Berezovsky, this 419 00:25:15,930 --> 00:25:17,290 Speaker 3: incredibly important oligarch. 420 00:25:17,530 --> 00:25:20,290 Speaker 4: He'd been asked to kill him. He refused. 421 00:25:20,690 --> 00:25:24,330 Speaker 3: Litvinenko told Boris Berezovsky and the two men became friends, 422 00:25:25,050 --> 00:25:28,210 Speaker 3: and Litvinenko he's a real believer at this point in 423 00:25:28,250 --> 00:25:31,850 Speaker 3: the ideals of the FSB, and when he discovers that 424 00:25:31,850 --> 00:25:35,170 Speaker 3: it's riddled with corruption, he goes to see Vladimir Putin 425 00:25:35,290 --> 00:25:36,210 Speaker 3: to tell him about it. 426 00:25:36,490 --> 00:25:38,650 Speaker 1: And Putin is the head of the FSB at the time. 427 00:25:38,570 --> 00:25:42,130 Speaker 3: Exactly, and he has this ten minute meeting during which 428 00:25:42,170 --> 00:25:45,650 Speaker 3: Litvinenko realizes he's made a huge mistake. He realizes Putin 429 00:25:45,690 --> 00:25:48,810 Speaker 3: isn't interested in hearing about the corruption of the FSB. 430 00:25:49,770 --> 00:25:52,890 Speaker 3: He leaves the meeting this huge target on his back, 431 00:25:53,410 --> 00:25:56,890 Speaker 3: but he doesn't go quietly. He then stages this press 432 00:25:56,890 --> 00:26:00,130 Speaker 3: conference in November ninety eight with four other FSB officers. 433 00:26:00,850 --> 00:26:06,090 Speaker 3: They are wearing masks to protect their identity. Alexander Litvinenko isn't. 434 00:26:06,490 --> 00:26:09,450 Speaker 3: He's made a choice to be seen. He is then 435 00:26:09,610 --> 00:26:12,370 Speaker 3: arrested after that press conference, put in prison for eight months. 436 00:26:12,610 --> 00:26:14,890 Speaker 3: He comes out, he's put in prison again, and he 437 00:26:14,970 --> 00:26:17,690 Speaker 3: realizes at this point that he can no longer live 438 00:26:17,690 --> 00:26:20,210 Speaker 3: in Russia, so he escapes to Britain in November two 439 00:26:20,250 --> 00:26:24,930 Speaker 3: thousand and At that point, Boris Berezovski pays him to 440 00:26:25,130 --> 00:26:30,850 Speaker 3: investigate the apartment bombing story. So Litvinenko starts interviewing victims 441 00:26:30,850 --> 00:26:35,090 Speaker 3: whose relatives died. He's tracking down government suspects. He's combing 442 00:26:35,090 --> 00:26:38,370 Speaker 3: through parliamentary reports and really digging into this story. 443 00:26:38,610 --> 00:26:41,130 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, what would he learn from a parliamentary report. 444 00:26:41,530 --> 00:26:45,650 Speaker 3: So this goes back to September thirteenth, nineteen ninety nine, 445 00:26:45,730 --> 00:26:48,250 Speaker 3: the time of the bombs. He finds a transcript from 446 00:26:48,250 --> 00:26:51,330 Speaker 3: the Douma the Russian Parliament, and it describes this moment 447 00:26:51,610 --> 00:26:53,650 Speaker 3: where the speaker of the parliament has taken to the 448 00:26:53,690 --> 00:26:57,290 Speaker 3: floor and he's announcing a minute's silence for the victims 449 00:26:57,450 --> 00:27:01,210 Speaker 3: of the bombings. He's then handed a note and he 450 00:27:01,290 --> 00:27:01,970 Speaker 3: read it aloud. 451 00:27:02,010 --> 00:27:02,730 Speaker 4: To the parliament. 452 00:27:03,410 --> 00:27:05,650 Speaker 3: He says, it's reported that an apartment has just been 453 00:27:05,690 --> 00:27:08,330 Speaker 3: bombed in a town called Volgardonsk. 454 00:27:09,090 --> 00:27:11,690 Speaker 4: This is the day of the third bomb. But the 455 00:27:11,730 --> 00:27:12,850 Speaker 4: speaker's got. 456 00:27:12,650 --> 00:27:15,450 Speaker 3: The name of the city wrong, because actually the city 457 00:27:15,490 --> 00:27:18,370 Speaker 3: that's just been bombed is Moscow. And at that point 458 00:27:18,450 --> 00:27:20,850 Speaker 3: people think, Okay, perhaps this is just an innocent mistake, 459 00:27:20,930 --> 00:27:24,050 Speaker 3: so no one says anything. But then three days later, 460 00:27:24,890 --> 00:27:27,850 Speaker 3: an apartment building is bombed in Volgodonsk. 461 00:27:28,490 --> 00:27:30,570 Speaker 1: Right, I mean, that's a heck of a coincidence. 462 00:27:30,610 --> 00:27:31,850 Speaker 4: It's a heck of a coincidence. 463 00:27:32,050 --> 00:27:35,570 Speaker 1: The presumption is somebody knew that Volgandonsk was going to 464 00:27:35,610 --> 00:27:36,370 Speaker 1: be targeted. 465 00:27:36,890 --> 00:27:41,010 Speaker 3: Either that or it's just a wild coincidence to mistake 466 00:27:41,050 --> 00:27:42,930 Speaker 3: the name of a city where a bomb explodes for 467 00:27:42,970 --> 00:27:44,810 Speaker 3: the name of a city in a country as vast 468 00:27:44,850 --> 00:27:47,370 Speaker 3: as Russia where the bomb would explode three days later. 469 00:27:47,530 --> 00:27:49,690 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I can think of a number of explanations, 470 00:27:49,730 --> 00:27:51,690 Speaker 1: but most of them are sinister. 471 00:27:52,090 --> 00:27:55,450 Speaker 3: Yeah, and someone does spot this, so a few days later, 472 00:27:55,530 --> 00:27:57,370 Speaker 3: a member of parliament takes to the floor to ask 473 00:27:57,450 --> 00:28:00,330 Speaker 3: a question about it. But what Litvinenko discovers in this 474 00:28:00,370 --> 00:28:04,730 Speaker 3: transcript is that just as this person starts asking a question. 475 00:28:05,530 --> 00:28:08,210 Speaker 3: His microphone was cut off and that's it. 476 00:28:08,290 --> 00:28:09,010 Speaker 4: No one brings it up. 477 00:28:08,930 --> 00:28:13,650 Speaker 1: A So Livinenko is making progress. What does he do 478 00:28:13,690 --> 00:28:14,010 Speaker 1: with it? 479 00:28:14,370 --> 00:28:17,730 Speaker 3: So he writes up the results of his investigation into 480 00:28:17,770 --> 00:28:21,690 Speaker 3: a book which he calls the FSB Blows Up Russia. 481 00:28:21,770 --> 00:28:23,730 Speaker 3: So you can imagine what his conclusion is. 482 00:28:23,770 --> 00:28:25,810 Speaker 1: It's fairly straightforward title, yep. 483 00:28:26,530 --> 00:28:29,210 Speaker 3: And the book comes out. This is in two thousand 484 00:28:29,210 --> 00:28:33,210 Speaker 3: and one. There's a few chapters published in Russian newspapers, 485 00:28:33,210 --> 00:28:35,170 Speaker 3: but in the West barely anything. 486 00:28:35,690 --> 00:28:40,170 Speaker 1: And then a few years later, this horrific episode, which 487 00:28:40,810 --> 00:28:43,170 Speaker 1: I mean Livinenka, was on the front page of every 488 00:28:43,170 --> 00:28:46,290 Speaker 1: newspaper in the UK. It's unforgettable image of this man. 489 00:28:46,370 --> 00:28:48,610 Speaker 1: He looks like he's been going through chemotherapy. He has 490 00:28:48,650 --> 00:28:50,770 Speaker 1: no hair, So what happened? 491 00:28:51,170 --> 00:28:53,610 Speaker 3: It's two thousand and six, five years after his book 492 00:28:53,690 --> 00:28:57,890 Speaker 3: comes out, and he falls ill. At first it's suspected 493 00:28:57,930 --> 00:29:00,850 Speaker 3: that perhaps it's a tummy bug. He goes to hospital 494 00:29:01,610 --> 00:29:05,770 Speaker 3: and there he rapidly disintegrates, His hair falls out, his 495 00:29:05,850 --> 00:29:10,050 Speaker 3: organs fail. Takes two weeks before say that he was 496 00:29:10,090 --> 00:29:13,610 Speaker 3: probably poisoned, and in the end it takes them sending 497 00:29:13,610 --> 00:29:16,850 Speaker 3: off tests to nuclear testing site to reveal that it 498 00:29:16,890 --> 00:29:21,090 Speaker 3: was polonium, which is a highly radioactive material. And you're right, 499 00:29:21,090 --> 00:29:22,730 Speaker 3: there's that the famous photo of him sitting in that 500 00:29:22,770 --> 00:29:25,890 Speaker 3: hospital bed with his hair out, his tangle of wires 501 00:29:25,890 --> 00:29:29,530 Speaker 3: covering his chest. And a few days later he dies. 502 00:29:30,570 --> 00:29:34,490 Speaker 3: And it's only once the British government carries out an 503 00:29:34,490 --> 00:29:38,450 Speaker 3: inquiry into his death, which is not until twenty sixteen, 504 00:29:39,210 --> 00:29:42,730 Speaker 3: that they conclude that he was poisoned by agents acting 505 00:29:42,730 --> 00:29:45,530 Speaker 3: on behalf of the Russian state, and that the kill 506 00:29:45,610 --> 00:29:48,930 Speaker 3: order probably came from Vladimir Putin himself, which we should 507 00:29:48,930 --> 00:29:50,090 Speaker 3: say the Kremlin denies. 508 00:29:50,330 --> 00:29:52,730 Speaker 1: By then, by twenty sixteen, Berezovsky's dead as well. 509 00:29:53,250 --> 00:29:55,490 Speaker 3: He's found dead in his home in Berkshire with a 510 00:29:55,490 --> 00:29:58,570 Speaker 3: scarf around his neck, and at first his death is 511 00:29:58,570 --> 00:30:01,370 Speaker 3: described as suicide by hanging, which a year later the 512 00:30:01,370 --> 00:30:05,650 Speaker 3: coroner says it's impossible to say whether it was suicide 513 00:30:06,090 --> 00:30:06,650 Speaker 3: or murder. 514 00:30:07,610 --> 00:30:13,690 Speaker 1: Does anybody else mysteriously perish? After looking into the apartment bombings, it's. 515 00:30:13,650 --> 00:30:16,930 Speaker 3: Quite a pile up of bodies Livinenko and Berezovsky in Britain, 516 00:30:17,730 --> 00:30:21,770 Speaker 3: But you also have these very strange, mysterious deaths in 517 00:30:21,850 --> 00:30:25,410 Speaker 3: Russia too, So there's an independent commission, so that there's 518 00:30:25,410 --> 00:30:30,410 Speaker 3: a group of parliamentarians and journalists, a few lawyers, and 519 00:30:30,530 --> 00:30:33,010 Speaker 3: just a few years after they begin their work, one 520 00:30:33,010 --> 00:30:36,850 Speaker 3: of them is shot outside his apartment. The other one 521 00:30:37,370 --> 00:30:39,890 Speaker 3: falls ill. The story is going to sound familiar. He 522 00:30:39,970 --> 00:30:43,170 Speaker 3: ends up in hospital, his hair falls out, his organs fail. 523 00:30:44,050 --> 00:30:46,610 Speaker 3: Doctors say, oh, it was probably an allergic reaction, but 524 00:30:46,850 --> 00:30:48,450 Speaker 3: a lot of journalists at the time say it was 525 00:30:48,490 --> 00:30:49,370 Speaker 3: probably poisoning. 526 00:30:50,170 --> 00:30:54,850 Speaker 1: We have heard a lot that sounds odd. Do we 527 00:30:54,890 --> 00:30:58,010 Speaker 1: have any hard evidence, Do we have any proof that 528 00:30:58,090 --> 00:31:00,010 Speaker 1: the FSB bombed these apartments. 529 00:31:00,250 --> 00:31:02,970 Speaker 3: There's a real lack of forensic evidence in this story, 530 00:31:03,010 --> 00:31:05,090 Speaker 3: and one of the reasons for that is that a 531 00:31:05,130 --> 00:31:07,570 Speaker 3: few days after each of those buildings was blown up, 532 00:31:07,730 --> 00:31:10,810 Speaker 3: the remains were demolished. So what you're left with is 533 00:31:10,810 --> 00:31:13,450 Speaker 3: a lot of circumstantial evidence, which we've been looking through. 534 00:31:14,210 --> 00:31:16,690 Speaker 3: Where that takes you, it depends on who you are. 535 00:31:16,770 --> 00:31:19,930 Speaker 3: For the Russian government, they've always said, look, it's obvious. 536 00:31:19,970 --> 00:31:22,770 Speaker 3: The answer is the Chechen militants they had the motive 537 00:31:22,850 --> 00:31:24,810 Speaker 3: to do it. And they also say, look, it's part 538 00:31:24,850 --> 00:31:28,330 Speaker 3: of their pattern of behavior in the years Following the bombs, 539 00:31:28,330 --> 00:31:31,290 Speaker 3: there were numerous other attacks by Chechen militants from the 540 00:31:31,410 --> 00:31:33,370 Speaker 3: Moscow theater seed to best Land. 541 00:31:33,850 --> 00:31:35,650 Speaker 1: And that is true, that is true. 542 00:31:36,010 --> 00:31:38,490 Speaker 3: And then others say, well, come on, how do you 543 00:31:38,570 --> 00:31:41,530 Speaker 3: explain the very strange events of Zann How do you 544 00:31:41,570 --> 00:31:46,090 Speaker 3: explain volgadonts. Look at how professional those bombs were. How 545 00:31:46,130 --> 00:31:49,170 Speaker 3: could Chechen militants have got hands on as much hexagon 546 00:31:49,210 --> 00:31:51,490 Speaker 3: that they would have needed to have bombed those apartments. 547 00:31:52,050 --> 00:31:55,370 Speaker 3: Others say, perhaps it was a strange combination. 548 00:31:54,930 --> 00:31:58,330 Speaker 4: Of the two. Perhaps it was not a. 549 00:31:57,730 --> 00:32:01,370 Speaker 3: Grand plot orchestrated from the upper levels of the FSB, 550 00:32:01,570 --> 00:32:04,330 Speaker 3: but perhaps corrupt officers further down the chain working with 551 00:32:04,410 --> 00:32:08,170 Speaker 3: Chechen militants. Others even say perhaps Boris Berezovski was involved. 552 00:32:08,610 --> 00:32:13,850 Speaker 3: They've always denied any involvement in the apartment bombs. Vladimir 553 00:32:13,850 --> 00:32:18,210 Speaker 3: Putin himself, he has responded to allegations about the bombs directly, 554 00:32:18,250 --> 00:32:20,810 Speaker 3: and his authorized biography that came out in two thousand 555 00:32:21,490 --> 00:32:23,730 Speaker 3: and he said their quote, no one in the Russian 556 00:32:23,810 --> 00:32:26,970 Speaker 3: Special Services would be capable of such a crime against 557 00:32:27,050 --> 00:32:27,810 Speaker 3: his own people. 558 00:32:28,690 --> 00:32:32,970 Speaker 1: We on cautioning tales, always try to learn lessons from 559 00:32:33,010 --> 00:32:36,250 Speaker 1: the mistakes of the past. So what are the lessons 560 00:32:36,290 --> 00:32:39,330 Speaker 1: you draw from this whole rather grim story. 561 00:32:39,770 --> 00:32:42,210 Speaker 3: First, it's important to say we still don't know who 562 00:32:42,250 --> 00:32:46,690 Speaker 3: bombed those apartment buildings, so the official explanation could well 563 00:32:46,930 --> 00:32:50,970 Speaker 3: be correct. But what we do know is that a 564 00:32:50,970 --> 00:32:54,970 Speaker 3: lot of journalists at the time didn't investigate the inconsistencies 565 00:32:54,970 --> 00:32:58,370 Speaker 3: in the government story. I think there's two reasons for that. Firstly, 566 00:32:58,410 --> 00:33:01,410 Speaker 3: it was because the alternative explanation at the time that 567 00:33:01,450 --> 00:33:04,250 Speaker 3: the FSB was involved in bombing their own people, it 568 00:33:04,370 --> 00:33:08,410 Speaker 3: just felt too impossible to believe. So I think I 569 00:33:08,410 --> 00:33:10,730 Speaker 3: think one less and from this story is that in 570 00:33:10,770 --> 00:33:13,890 Speaker 3: the chaos of events, we have to keep a healthy 571 00:33:13,930 --> 00:33:18,970 Speaker 3: curiosity in the unbelievable explanations. But I think it's also 572 00:33:19,090 --> 00:33:23,770 Speaker 3: about the pressure of journalism. As news journalists, we're trained 573 00:33:23,770 --> 00:33:29,130 Speaker 3: to chase what's new, what's dramatic, and what's visible, what 574 00:33:29,250 --> 00:33:31,730 Speaker 3: you can actually see, and so you know, in this 575 00:33:31,930 --> 00:33:35,010 Speaker 3: context of this story, it's understandable that journalists focused on 576 00:33:35,010 --> 00:33:38,170 Speaker 3: this new war in Chechnia. It's harder to justify spending 577 00:33:38,210 --> 00:33:42,770 Speaker 3: hours examining counterfactuals or unresolved questions, and so I think 578 00:33:42,850 --> 00:33:47,530 Speaker 3: it's that uncomfortable thought that perhaps as journalists we don't 579 00:33:47,530 --> 00:33:50,730 Speaker 3: always miss things because of censorship or fear, but because 580 00:33:50,730 --> 00:33:52,210 Speaker 3: the story isn't shiny enough. 581 00:33:53,610 --> 00:33:56,410 Speaker 1: You spoke to many of your colleagues at the BBC 582 00:33:57,090 --> 00:34:02,170 Speaker 1: about their experiences reporting on Russia. Looking back at what 583 00:34:02,210 --> 00:34:05,730 Speaker 1: we the evidence that we've now assembled, how are they 584 00:34:05,770 --> 00:34:06,810 Speaker 1: feeling about the whole thing? 585 00:34:07,090 --> 00:34:10,490 Speaker 3: These were people who were making minute by minute decisions 586 00:34:10,530 --> 00:34:14,890 Speaker 3: and an incredibly chaotic, confusing moment, and it's so easy 587 00:34:14,970 --> 00:34:19,410 Speaker 3: to sit here with hindsight and point out mistakes that 588 00:34:19,450 --> 00:34:22,770 Speaker 3: were made, or threads that weren't pulled, or questions that 589 00:34:22,810 --> 00:34:25,610 Speaker 3: weren't asked. And I think they were very humble in 590 00:34:25,690 --> 00:34:30,450 Speaker 3: saying they wish they had asked more questions about Razann. 591 00:34:31,130 --> 00:34:33,850 Speaker 3: And one of the journalists I spoke to was BBC 592 00:34:34,010 --> 00:34:36,090 Speaker 3: veteran correspondent Andrew Harding. 593 00:34:36,970 --> 00:34:39,770 Speaker 2: I think we were distracted by the war which started 594 00:34:39,850 --> 00:34:45,410 Speaker 2: very quickly. I think it's quite painful to confront that 595 00:34:46,290 --> 00:34:49,210 Speaker 2: we should have covered it more and we didn't. You know, 596 00:34:49,250 --> 00:34:52,970 Speaker 2: it makes you think, and it's a good reminder of 597 00:34:53,090 --> 00:34:56,850 Speaker 2: how easy it is to fall into patterns in reporting, 598 00:34:56,890 --> 00:35:02,130 Speaker 2: even when one thinks one's being correct and cautious that 599 00:35:02,170 --> 00:35:07,330 Speaker 2: there's the sort of consensus thinking, the kind of group think, 600 00:35:08,650 --> 00:35:10,570 Speaker 2: some mis opportunities. 601 00:35:10,610 --> 00:35:12,530 Speaker 3: Probably in every story, if you were to take a 602 00:35:12,570 --> 00:35:14,890 Speaker 3: journalist back, and I would include myself in this too. 603 00:35:14,930 --> 00:35:17,570 Speaker 3: In the reporting that I've done, there will always be 604 00:35:17,650 --> 00:35:18,570 Speaker 3: things that we've missed. 605 00:35:19,210 --> 00:35:21,370 Speaker 1: And one of the things that has changed about this 606 00:35:21,490 --> 00:35:24,810 Speaker 1: story is that Vladimir Putin's reputation has changed. I think 607 00:35:24,810 --> 00:35:27,330 Speaker 1: it's safe to say that Putin is now in the 608 00:35:27,330 --> 00:35:31,130 Speaker 1: Western world held in rather low regard by many people. 609 00:35:31,570 --> 00:35:36,410 Speaker 1: That was not actually true in nineteen ninety nine two thousand. 610 00:35:36,850 --> 00:35:40,170 Speaker 1: He was viewed with quite a lot of hope, and 611 00:35:40,250 --> 00:35:46,410 Speaker 1: so the idea that he knew about these bombings just 612 00:35:46,490 --> 00:35:48,250 Speaker 1: seemed very hard to. 613 00:35:48,210 --> 00:35:53,570 Speaker 3: Believe exactly that it was this almost comforting narrative that 614 00:35:53,610 --> 00:35:55,730 Speaker 3: here was this new leader of Russia, one of the 615 00:35:55,730 --> 00:36:01,210 Speaker 3: most important positions globally, who seemed to be moving the 616 00:36:01,250 --> 00:36:04,530 Speaker 3: country in line with what so many Western leaders wanted. 617 00:36:05,530 --> 00:36:08,810 Speaker 3: And I think the apartment bombing story fit the narrative 618 00:36:09,210 --> 00:36:11,690 Speaker 3: that here was this leader cracking down on militants at 619 00:36:11,690 --> 00:36:13,450 Speaker 3: a time when other leaders in the world were also 620 00:36:13,490 --> 00:36:17,490 Speaker 3: cracking down on militants who were blowing things up, and 621 00:36:17,530 --> 00:36:20,370 Speaker 3: so I think exactly your point that we often want 622 00:36:20,410 --> 00:36:23,250 Speaker 3: the smaller stories to make sense with what the bigger 623 00:36:23,290 --> 00:36:24,610 Speaker 3: narratives at the time might. 624 00:36:24,490 --> 00:36:27,490 Speaker 1: Be, and wish for thinking is a very powerful thing. 625 00:36:27,610 --> 00:36:31,410 Speaker 1: I think people really wanted to believe that the Soviet 626 00:36:31,490 --> 00:36:33,330 Speaker 1: Union wasn't coming. 627 00:36:33,090 --> 00:36:34,930 Speaker 4: Back exactly right. 628 00:36:34,970 --> 00:36:36,530 Speaker 3: I mean, one of the people I interviewed for the 629 00:36:36,570 --> 00:36:38,730 Speaker 3: series was BBC journalist Jeremy Vine. 630 00:36:39,610 --> 00:36:42,690 Speaker 6: Look at where I'd come from as someone born in 631 00:36:42,770 --> 00:36:45,450 Speaker 6: nineteen sixty five. For the whole of my childhood and 632 00:36:45,490 --> 00:36:49,050 Speaker 6: my teenage years, I was lying in bed in Cheam 633 00:36:49,170 --> 00:36:52,290 Speaker 6: in Surrey, thinking I had Russian nuclear missiles pointed at 634 00:36:52,330 --> 00:36:53,890 Speaker 6: my head and they could go off at any time. 635 00:36:54,410 --> 00:36:58,650 Speaker 6: And then along comes Gorbachevani seems wonderful, and then he's 636 00:36:58,690 --> 00:37:03,090 Speaker 6: sort of deposed, and in comes Jeltzin, who, while constantly drunk, 637 00:37:03,450 --> 00:37:08,650 Speaker 6: is also benign. And so forgive us my generation for 638 00:37:08,690 --> 00:37:12,370 Speaker 6: thinking we were on a flight path into Russia becoming normal. 639 00:37:12,890 --> 00:37:14,690 Speaker 3: The way that he looked at this story, and so 640 00:37:14,730 --> 00:37:17,090 Speaker 3: many other journalists looked at this story, was that well 641 00:37:17,130 --> 00:37:20,250 Speaker 3: Putin must be telling the truth. Because of that desire 642 00:37:20,690 --> 00:37:22,810 Speaker 3: to see him as someone who was changing Russia for 643 00:37:22,850 --> 00:37:23,210 Speaker 3: the better. 644 00:37:23,410 --> 00:37:27,410 Speaker 1: Yeah, I wanted to ask you about distraction and attention. 645 00:37:27,570 --> 00:37:30,170 Speaker 1: You kind of alluded to it a moment ago. In 646 00:37:30,210 --> 00:37:33,730 Speaker 1: our episode of Cautioning Tales about the Master forger Eric Heabn, 647 00:37:34,450 --> 00:37:37,850 Speaker 1: we talked about the Russian propaganda strategy. So Heaven was 648 00:37:37,890 --> 00:37:41,650 Speaker 1: this a bizarre character who forged a lot of artwork, 649 00:37:41,850 --> 00:37:45,090 Speaker 1: but also would make up stories about having forged artwork 650 00:37:45,130 --> 00:37:47,970 Speaker 1: that he hadn't forged and that was actually perfectly genuine, 651 00:37:48,010 --> 00:37:50,210 Speaker 1: and so there was like, got no idea what's true 652 00:37:50,210 --> 00:37:53,010 Speaker 1: and what's not, but he was doing it at tremendous volume, 653 00:37:53,130 --> 00:37:56,010 Speaker 1: and it was always attention grabbing, And we made the 654 00:37:56,050 --> 00:38:00,290 Speaker 1: parallel between Heaven and the Russian propaganda strategy. So, back 655 00:38:00,330 --> 00:38:03,690 Speaker 1: in the day, propaganda was you would try to come 656 00:38:03,810 --> 00:38:07,330 Speaker 1: up with a convincing story that was backed up by 657 00:38:07,370 --> 00:38:09,570 Speaker 1: the evidence, even if it wasn't actually true true, and 658 00:38:09,570 --> 00:38:12,010 Speaker 1: you would kind of stick to the story and maybe 659 00:38:12,010 --> 00:38:14,970 Speaker 1: you could get people to believe your story. The Russians 660 00:38:15,010 --> 00:38:17,330 Speaker 1: turned that on its head. They said, we don't need 661 00:38:17,330 --> 00:38:19,370 Speaker 1: a consistent story, and we don't need anything to be 662 00:38:19,530 --> 00:38:23,490 Speaker 1: particularly believable. We just want lots and lots and lots 663 00:38:23,490 --> 00:38:27,290 Speaker 1: of different things, different contradictory views, so that people are 664 00:38:27,330 --> 00:38:31,330 Speaker 1: just lost in the blizzard of claim and counterclaim and 665 00:38:31,410 --> 00:38:33,930 Speaker 1: can't focus on anything for long enough to really examine it. 666 00:38:34,330 --> 00:38:37,410 Speaker 1: And when somebody like Berezofty pops up with some crazy 667 00:38:37,450 --> 00:38:40,290 Speaker 1: sounding story, it's like, well, we hear crazy sounding stories 668 00:38:40,290 --> 00:38:43,690 Speaker 1: every day, so whatever, we're not interested. So to what 669 00:38:43,850 --> 00:38:49,290 Speaker 1: extent is this this whole story a story about not 670 00:38:49,330 --> 00:38:52,050 Speaker 1: being able to focus on something important for long enough 671 00:38:52,050 --> 00:38:54,250 Speaker 1: to really ask the right questions and being distracted by 672 00:38:54,250 --> 00:38:55,090 Speaker 1: the next shiny thing. 673 00:38:55,610 --> 00:38:58,050 Speaker 3: I think not only is this story about that, but 674 00:38:58,130 --> 00:39:01,290 Speaker 3: I think the last two decades of Putin's rule in 675 00:39:01,330 --> 00:39:03,490 Speaker 3: Russia is about that. I mean, I think one of 676 00:39:03,490 --> 00:39:05,970 Speaker 3: the reasons that this story was such an interesting one 677 00:39:06,010 --> 00:39:08,610 Speaker 3: to tell now is that when you look at how 678 00:39:08,610 --> 00:39:11,690 Speaker 3: the Kremlin handle the apartment bombs, it became a template 679 00:39:11,730 --> 00:39:15,090 Speaker 3: really for how they managed so many other situations in 680 00:39:15,130 --> 00:39:17,970 Speaker 3: Russia too, whether that was plane crashes or bombings or 681 00:39:18,010 --> 00:39:21,170 Speaker 3: submarine disasters. The pattern was the same. Now, they moved 682 00:39:21,490 --> 00:39:24,930 Speaker 3: very fast to control these narratives. They would flood the 683 00:39:24,930 --> 00:39:27,650 Speaker 3: media with different versions of events that they can send 684 00:39:27,730 --> 00:39:30,930 Speaker 3: journalists spinning to cover them, and then they close the 685 00:39:30,970 --> 00:39:35,570 Speaker 3: investigations before any awkward questions can really take hold. And 686 00:39:35,650 --> 00:39:39,250 Speaker 3: so I think that so much about this story is 687 00:39:39,290 --> 00:39:43,130 Speaker 3: also about how power works in Russia. 688 00:39:42,170 --> 00:39:44,570 Speaker 1: Even now, and maybe not just in Russia anymore. I 689 00:39:44,610 --> 00:39:48,930 Speaker 1: feel that we have managed to independently reinvent the fire 690 00:39:48,970 --> 00:39:53,450 Speaker 1: hose of falsehood in the Western world, not necessarily coming 691 00:39:53,490 --> 00:39:56,570 Speaker 1: from the top, but just the inability in a fragmented 692 00:39:56,610 --> 00:40:00,410 Speaker 1: media world to concentrate on anything for any particular period 693 00:40:00,450 --> 00:40:03,210 Speaker 1: of time. And so you've got no with the latest 694 00:40:03,210 --> 00:40:07,010 Speaker 1: Epstein releases. A distraction from Greenland was Greenland. The distraction 695 00:40:07,050 --> 00:40:11,330 Speaker 1: from Venezuela was venze Wala, a distraction from Epstein was 696 00:40:11,370 --> 00:40:13,210 Speaker 1: all of it? A distraction from the collapse in the 697 00:40:13,210 --> 00:40:16,410 Speaker 1: gold price, or from haw Malania's documentary is doing? Or 698 00:40:16,450 --> 00:40:19,090 Speaker 1: everything's a distraction from everything else exactly. 699 00:40:19,210 --> 00:40:22,970 Speaker 3: And I think that's a problem that not only journalists 700 00:40:23,010 --> 00:40:26,210 Speaker 3: but everyone is trying to deal with. Now, what's the 701 00:40:26,250 --> 00:40:29,530 Speaker 3: real story, what's the distraction? Where should we spend our time? 702 00:40:30,250 --> 00:40:32,730 Speaker 3: And I think that question is going to be increasingly 703 00:40:32,730 --> 00:40:35,210 Speaker 3: important but increasingly hard to answer. 704 00:40:35,650 --> 00:40:37,970 Speaker 1: Helen and Merriman, thank you so much for joining us. 705 00:40:38,370 --> 00:40:39,490 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. 706 00:40:40,090 --> 00:40:44,090 Speaker 1: Helena is the presenter of Putin and the Apartment Bombs, 707 00:40:44,210 --> 00:40:48,050 Speaker 1: which is the first series in the History Bureau, which 708 00:40:48,090 --> 00:40:51,530 Speaker 1: is a BBC Studios podcast available to listen on BBC 709 00:40:51,570 --> 00:40:55,010 Speaker 1: Sounds in the UK and on BBC dot Com globally 710 00:40:55,370 --> 00:41:04,050 Speaker 1: and obviously wherever you get your podcasts. Cautionary Tales is 711 00:41:04,090 --> 00:41:07,770 Speaker 1: written by me Tim Harford with Andrew Wright, Alis Fines 712 00:41:08,010 --> 00:41:12,570 Speaker 1: and Ryan Diary. It's produced by Georgia Mills and Marilyn Rust. 713 00:41:13,290 --> 00:41:15,610 Speaker 1: The sound design and original music are the work of 714 00:41:15,770 --> 00:41:20,690 Speaker 1: Pascal Wise. Additional sound design by Carlos San Juan at 715 00:41:20,690 --> 00:41:26,450 Speaker 1: Brain Audio and Dan Jackson Bender. Daf Haffrey edited the scripts. 716 00:41:27,090 --> 00:41:29,890 Speaker 1: The show also wouldn't have been possible without the work 717 00:41:29,930 --> 00:41:36,090 Speaker 1: of Jacob Weisberg, Greta Cohne, Eric Sandler, Carrie Brody, Christina Sullivan, 718 00:41:36,610 --> 00:41:41,250 Speaker 1: Kira Posey and Owen Miller. Cautionary Tales is a production 719 00:41:41,370 --> 00:41:45,490 Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. 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