WEBVTT - Building a Plane to Help Save the World 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:21.756 Pushkin, you are in fact a pilot? 0:00:21.836 --> 0:00:24.556 No? Yes, indeed, indeed, is that in. 0:00:24.436 --> 0:00:26.356 Fact a pilot headset that you're wearing. 0:00:26.636 --> 0:00:29.716 It is in fact a pilot hatseet, can you give. 0:00:29.516 --> 0:00:31.756 Me a little like you're the pilot and I'm on 0:00:31.796 --> 0:00:33.196 the plane, Just give me a little bit of that? 0:00:33.796 --> 0:00:37.596 Uh? What am I doing? Yes, ladies and gentlemen, get 0:00:37.716 --> 0:00:42.236 ready for takeoff? Are about to go to sustainable future? 0:00:42.596 --> 0:00:43.796 How about that? Very good? 0:00:49.876 --> 0:00:52.436 I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem? The 0:00:52.476 --> 0:00:54.636 show where I talk to people who are trying to 0:00:54.716 --> 0:00:59.076 make technological progress. My guest today is Val Misikov. He's 0:00:59.156 --> 0:01:02.676 the founder and CEO of zero Opia. His problem is this, 0:01:03.356 --> 0:01:06.356 how can we have commercial air travel that doesn't make 0:01:06.436 --> 0:01:10.356 climate change worse? As you'll hear, this is a very hard, 0:01:10.596 --> 0:01:13.596 very high stakes problem. Zero Avia is trying to solve 0:01:13.636 --> 0:01:16.756 it by using hydrogen fuel cells to power planes. The 0:01:16.756 --> 0:01:19.716 company has about three hundred employees, and earlier this year 0:01:19.796 --> 0:01:22.876 they had a successful test flight of a small hydrogen 0:01:22.916 --> 0:01:25.356 fueled plane they hope will be in commercial use by 0:01:25.356 --> 0:01:28.276 twenty twenty five. So how did you like? What was 0:01:28.556 --> 0:01:29.956 how did you get to starting this company? 0:01:30.516 --> 0:01:33.116 Yeah? So the short version is, you know, my previous 0:01:33.116 --> 0:01:38.156 company that I co found, it grew and sold, you know, 0:01:38.196 --> 0:01:40.876 and now is actually a basis off a one of 0:01:40.876 --> 0:01:43.436 the largest e mobility platforms in Europe. 0:01:43.316 --> 0:01:46.076 Yeah, and to be clear, that company was basically doing charging, 0:01:46.196 --> 0:01:48.076 doing charging for electric vehicles. 0:01:47.756 --> 0:01:51.236 Exactly right, right, So since twenty ten or so, I 0:01:51.316 --> 0:01:55.516 was in sustainable transportation space as an entrepreneur. When I 0:01:55.596 --> 0:01:59.676 sold that company and as you correctly noted, a pilot 0:01:59.756 --> 0:02:01.876 myself for the last twenty years or so. So when 0:02:01.876 --> 0:02:05.356 I sold that company, started thinking about what's next. Sustainable 0:02:05.356 --> 0:02:08.196 transfer was already in the car, so to speak, and 0:02:08.236 --> 0:02:11.396 an aviation at to that and then sustainable aviation, so 0:02:11.436 --> 0:02:12.996 that was relatively natural. 0:02:13.036 --> 0:02:16.156 I mean, sustainable aviation is really hard, right, Like I 0:02:16.156 --> 0:02:19.676 feel like, you know, there's the very big picture, the 0:02:19.756 --> 0:02:24.716 sort of the energy transition, decarbonization, and like electricity generation, 0:02:24.876 --> 0:02:29.236 we're doing great. We can get electricity without burning fossil fuels. 0:02:29.556 --> 0:02:32.036 We've got some transmission and some storage issues that are hard, 0:02:32.036 --> 0:02:35.956 but basically we can we can get electricity without burning 0:02:35.996 --> 0:02:39.516 fossil fuels. Cars We're doing really well. Ev is great, 0:02:39.636 --> 0:02:42.476 We've we've got that one. Planes seem really hard. 0:02:42.516 --> 0:02:47.516 Planes seem harder, exactly right, And that's why I started it, right, 0:02:47.596 --> 0:02:50.836 because somebody's got to do it. Yeah, it's a huge problem. 0:02:50.836 --> 0:02:53.836 It's actually on track to become the largest problem we 0:02:54.236 --> 0:02:57.516 have in terms of sustainability. 0:02:56.956 --> 0:02:59.436 Because we're solving the other ones and we haven't really 0:02:59.436 --> 0:03:01.116 cracked planes exactly right. 0:03:01.196 --> 0:03:05.676 And this is actually planes or aviation. Commercial aviation is 0:03:05.756 --> 0:03:11.396 one of the fastest growing transportation modes worldwide. There's either 0:03:11.436 --> 0:03:14.076 ten or fifteen percent I don't remember the exact naml right, 0:03:14.476 --> 0:03:18.596 only ten or fifteen percent of people have flown on aircraft, right. 0:03:18.796 --> 0:03:22.076 And obviously, as you know, people get a little bit 0:03:22.196 --> 0:03:25.636 richer and the standards of living go up. People jump 0:03:25.636 --> 0:03:27.116 on a plane and they want to go somewhere. 0:03:28.116 --> 0:03:30.756 So you have the sort of rising middle class. Say 0:03:30.756 --> 0:03:32.716 in a lot of Asia, you have billions of people 0:03:32.756 --> 0:03:34.916 who've never been on a plane who in the next 0:03:34.996 --> 0:03:37.556 ten twenty years they or their kids are going to 0:03:37.556 --> 0:03:38.956 start flying the way we fly in the. 0:03:38.876 --> 0:03:42.276 West, exactly right, exactly right. And while in the West 0:03:42.316 --> 0:03:45.356 we're sort of you know, some Scandinavian country started as 0:03:45.676 --> 0:03:48.156 the flight shaming movement right from Sweden and all that 0:03:48.196 --> 0:03:50.436 we're thinking, oh, well, maybe we should fly less and 0:03:50.476 --> 0:03:54.876 all that. That is a developed nation centric view. Yeah. 0:03:54.956 --> 0:03:56.996 No, we're not going to shame people into not flying. 0:03:57.276 --> 0:04:00.116 I'm very comfortable with that. We can stipulate that. 0:04:00.236 --> 0:04:00.396 Right. 0:04:00.436 --> 0:04:02.796 So we have to figure out how to fly planes 0:04:02.836 --> 0:04:05.996 without generating fossil fuels and other bad emission. 0:04:06.076 --> 0:04:09.116 Yeah. So, and the problem there is a not just carbon, right, 0:04:09.196 --> 0:04:12.716 which is important. So from carbon accounting perspective, aviation is 0:04:12.716 --> 0:04:17.716 about three percent today off all human emissions, but the 0:04:17.756 --> 0:04:23.236 actual impact on climate is at least triple that, right, 0:04:23.276 --> 0:04:27.156 because of the high altitude emissions off combustion artifacts. Right, 0:04:27.156 --> 0:04:30.396 So that's the particular emissions, high temperature, water vapor, all 0:04:30.436 --> 0:04:33.916 that stuff emitted up in the atmosphere. 0:04:33.276 --> 0:04:37.756 All the other stuff besides carbon. Carbon dioxide is particularly 0:04:37.796 --> 0:04:41.156 bad for climate change if it happens at whatever, thirty 0:04:41.196 --> 0:04:42.196 thousand feet above. 0:04:41.956 --> 0:04:45.956 The good right. Right. So, as a result, already aviation 0:04:46.196 --> 0:04:49.956 is anywhere between seven and ten percent of total human 0:04:49.996 --> 0:04:50.756 climate impact. 0:04:50.836 --> 0:04:53.796 Presumably, as you sort of turn to it, you think 0:04:53.876 --> 0:04:58.916 through the different possibilities. How can we solve this? So 0:04:58.996 --> 0:05:01.516 how do you sort of think through the different possible solutions? 0:05:02.236 --> 0:05:06.596 Yeah, yeah, and you're very right. So, really in order 0:05:06.676 --> 0:05:12.276 to fully solve the problem and reduce the impact profile affreviation, 0:05:12.596 --> 0:05:14.196 you have to get away from combustion. 0:05:14.596 --> 0:05:17.396 And there are a few different options there. Right, once 0:05:17.436 --> 0:05:19.996 you get to the long term even that is, people 0:05:20.036 --> 0:05:24.236 are trying different things. So if we're going to stop 0:05:24.236 --> 0:05:28.516 burning things, we're going to make electric planes, that basically 0:05:28.596 --> 0:05:31.916 leave us with the choice of batteries or hydrogen fuel cells. 0:05:31.916 --> 0:05:34.876 Is that we or fuel cells off some kinds, right, 0:05:34.916 --> 0:05:38.036 So there are multiple types of fuel cells. There are 0:05:38.356 --> 0:05:40.836 you know, fuel cells that work on methanol for example, 0:05:40.876 --> 0:05:41.556 and things like that. 0:05:41.836 --> 0:05:44.556 Before we get to fuel cells, I mean, we've got 0:05:44.596 --> 0:05:48.956 electric cars. They seem cool, they work with batteries. Why 0:05:48.956 --> 0:05:50.236 not do that for a plane? 0:05:50.636 --> 0:05:54.676 Very good question, and we actually did this analysis relatively 0:05:54.716 --> 0:05:57.316 early on. We say, okay, well, look at let's look 0:05:57.316 --> 0:06:01.436 at all the transportation modes starting from personal car all 0:06:01.476 --> 0:06:04.156 the way to commercial aircraft. Right and along the way 0:06:04.196 --> 0:06:07.476 you have taxis, you have like small trucks that deliver 0:06:07.596 --> 0:06:10.076 postal services, and they have big trucks, and you have 0:06:10.236 --> 0:06:13.756 airplanes and they have you know, large commercial planes. You 0:06:13.796 --> 0:06:16.796 take personal car that's about two to three percent off 0:06:16.876 --> 0:06:21.356 its total weight of the vehicle is gasoline or diesel fuel. Yeah, 0:06:21.436 --> 0:06:24.276 and then you move to the other side of the spectrum, 0:06:24.316 --> 0:06:26.836 which is commercial aircraft, you have up to forty percent 0:06:27.236 --> 0:06:30.556 off to take off weight is fuel. So that's twenty 0:06:30.796 --> 0:06:34.116 x difference on the energy intensity, right, And that gives 0:06:34.156 --> 0:06:36.916 you a perspective off like, hey, how much energy do 0:06:36.996 --> 0:06:39.956 I need to store on board my vehicle in order 0:06:39.996 --> 0:06:42.716 to enable commercial operation or viable operation? 0:06:43.196 --> 0:06:45.396 And just to be clear, the answer to that question 0:06:45.596 --> 0:06:49.116 for a passenger car is not that much energy, that's right, 0:06:49.156 --> 0:06:52.076 And the answer for a jet is an incredible amount 0:06:52.076 --> 0:06:55.436 of energy. The jet is like by weight almost half 0:06:55.556 --> 0:06:56.436 energy storage. 0:06:56.636 --> 0:06:58.396 Right, gets to that point, okay. 0:06:58.436 --> 0:07:02.036 And just to be clear, batteries even relative to regular fuel, like, 0:07:02.076 --> 0:07:05.356 a key problem with batteries is they are not very 0:07:05.476 --> 0:07:07.716 energy dense. You need a lot of battery to get 0:07:07.756 --> 0:07:10.876 a little bit of energy. Big problem for batteries in general. 0:07:11.316 --> 0:07:14.476 Exactly. So when you have you know, for small car, 0:07:15.036 --> 0:07:17.636 your fuel is two percent off the weight of the car, 0:07:18.196 --> 0:07:21.156 then you say, well, even if my battery is twenty 0:07:21.196 --> 0:07:25.556 times heavier or twenty times lower energy density, it's okay. 0:07:25.676 --> 0:07:27.836 You know, I can have a battery that's now forty 0:07:27.876 --> 0:07:31.316 percent off the car weight, which is what you have 0:07:31.476 --> 0:07:35.156 in you know, early teslas. Right, But it's still fine, huh, Right. 0:07:34.996 --> 0:07:37.436 You can still make a functional car that's half. 0:07:37.236 --> 0:07:40.396 Battery, Yeah you can. You can make a viable vehicle. 0:07:40.556 --> 0:07:43.876 But when you start with a forty percent nothing you 0:07:43.876 --> 0:07:44.236 can do. 0:07:44.356 --> 0:07:47.316 You can't make a plane that's two hundred percent battery. 0:07:47.476 --> 0:07:50.876 And it's actually interesting point there because you know, it's 0:07:50.916 --> 0:07:53.796 like you get into into this problem of what I 0:07:53.836 --> 0:07:57.436 call a rocket equation, right, which is like in a rocket, 0:07:57.436 --> 0:08:00.716 for example, in space rocket, most of the fuel is 0:08:00.836 --> 0:08:05.076 used to carry fuel right through the through the beginning 0:08:05.116 --> 0:08:06.436 of your ascent right. 0:08:06.316 --> 0:08:09.436 Right, because the rocket is almost entirely fuel, right, And 0:08:09.476 --> 0:08:13.196 so when it's blasting off, it's expending a tremendous amount 0:08:13.196 --> 0:08:15.916 of energy to carry the fuel that it's going to 0:08:15.996 --> 0:08:18.076 need in ten seconds to get it a little bit 0:08:18.156 --> 0:08:18.956 higher and so on. 0:08:19.196 --> 0:08:22.556 Exactly right, exactly, you got it. So with battery airplane 0:08:22.636 --> 0:08:25.556 you get into the same kind of circular dependency. 0:08:25.716 --> 0:08:28.796 So, okay, so you land on a fuel cell, let's 0:08:28.836 --> 0:08:31.596 just do like a really basic like what is a 0:08:31.636 --> 0:08:32.196 fuel cell? 0:08:33.076 --> 0:08:36.196 All right? So fuel cell is an electro chemical device 0:08:36.516 --> 0:08:41.436 that takes fuel and oxygen and converse it into electricity 0:08:41.476 --> 0:08:44.356 through a catalyst based reaction. Right, So there is no 0:08:44.956 --> 0:08:49.956 high temperature combustion involved and you have direct electricity production, 0:08:50.396 --> 0:08:52.716 and that's what makes that thing very efficient. 0:08:53.116 --> 0:08:56.076 So let's talk about end to end, the dream of 0:08:56.116 --> 0:08:58.276 how it's going to work. Afterwards, we can talk about 0:08:58.276 --> 0:08:59.636 sort of where you are now and what you still 0:08:59.636 --> 0:09:01.876 have to figure out. But like when you sort of 0:09:01.916 --> 0:09:05.156 close your eyes and imagine the world in ten years 0:09:05.236 --> 0:09:07.076 or whatever, how's it going to work? 0:09:07.796 --> 0:09:10.996 Yeah, So we are going to have hydrogen production on 0:09:11.116 --> 0:09:14.516 site at the airports. Okay, it's a green hydrogen production 0:09:14.596 --> 0:09:16.956 through electrolysis, local renewable power. 0:09:17.036 --> 0:09:21.156 So the airports will have little hydrogen factories. Basically, what's 0:09:21.196 --> 0:09:21.876 that going to look like? 0:09:22.276 --> 0:09:24.756 Yeah, but it's actually quite sizeable hydrogen factory. 0:09:24.796 --> 0:09:27.636 They're not little. They're gonna have hydrogen factories, big hydrogen factory. 0:09:27.636 --> 0:09:29.076 It's great. So what's that gonna look like? 0:09:29.996 --> 0:09:32.476 Yeah, So we're going to have so let's say right now, 0:09:32.596 --> 0:09:35.276 every large airport, a medium airport as well, they have 0:09:35.476 --> 0:09:38.996 what's called fuel farm. Okay, so that's a separate area 0:09:39.676 --> 0:09:45.156 dedicated to receiving, storing, processing, dispensing fuel. Now we're going 0:09:45.196 --> 0:09:48.396 to have part of that fuel farm will be dedicated 0:09:48.436 --> 0:09:51.076 to hydrogen production through electrolysism. 0:09:51.076 --> 0:09:54.436 And that electrolysis, what's happening there? What is that step one? 0:09:54.756 --> 0:09:58.436 So it's again you know a system right here. You 0:09:58.476 --> 0:10:02.076 take water in electricity, produce hydrogen and oxygen. 0:10:02.476 --> 0:10:05.196 Okay, okay, you're getting the electricity from a from a 0:10:05.196 --> 0:10:08.076 solar panel or a turbine, not from burning natural gas. 0:10:08.196 --> 0:10:11.476 So sure you've got your electricity coming from the solar farm. 0:10:11.956 --> 0:10:14.996 You're using that electricity to create hydrogen. 0:10:15.556 --> 0:10:18.236 Yeah, so it's a hydrogen at the airport, so it's 0:10:18.276 --> 0:10:22.196 piped over to the airside and then it fills the 0:10:22.276 --> 0:10:28.316 aircraft with hydrogen electric engines. Then it's used to produce 0:10:28.356 --> 0:10:33.396 electricity on board and you operate all this aircraft less noise, 0:10:34.116 --> 0:10:38.436 no emissions. And that's where the messaging has parallels with 0:10:38.556 --> 0:10:41.476 the automotive, right when Tesla came in and said, well, actually, 0:10:42.356 --> 0:10:44.556 you know, electric car is a better car because it's 0:10:44.556 --> 0:10:48.396 so much more efficient, better torque, better acceleration, all those things. 0:10:48.676 --> 0:10:52.916 So similar here, the electric propulsion is much more efficient 0:10:53.316 --> 0:10:56.596 than any combustion propulsion you can have, even for the 0:10:56.716 --> 0:10:59.876 largest engines that we have that are running on seven 0:10:59.956 --> 0:11:03.956 eighty sevens and beyond. They are less efficient than even 0:11:04.036 --> 0:11:08.316 small fuel cell electric engines that we fly in twenty 0:11:08.396 --> 0:11:09.036 seat planes. 0:11:09.276 --> 0:11:12.236 So there was a crash of one of your test 0:11:12.276 --> 0:11:15.516 flights last year, right, tell me briefly what happened there. 0:11:15.836 --> 0:11:20.076 Yeah, So mostly I would say the root cause was 0:11:20.276 --> 0:11:25.476 a loss of power on the engine, right, so you know, duh, naturally, 0:11:25.716 --> 0:11:27.676 otherwise we wouldn't have landed in the field. 0:11:28.236 --> 0:11:30.596 But the real cost is bad, right, You don't want 0:11:30.596 --> 0:11:31.516 to have lots of power in it. 0:11:31.596 --> 0:11:34.356 Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you know, you test experimental engine, 0:11:34.396 --> 0:11:37.876 so you know, and you test it through sort of 0:11:37.956 --> 0:11:41.636 expansion of the envelope. So in this case, uh, you know, 0:11:41.716 --> 0:11:47.036 there were some human factors that resulted in wrong points 0:11:47.076 --> 0:11:49.876 in the pattern for the power to be switched off, 0:11:50.396 --> 0:11:53.636 wrong altitude to be flown, and now those things kind 0:11:53.636 --> 0:11:55.956 of compounded together, and then there are some other things. 0:11:55.996 --> 0:11:58.756 But mostly I would say human factors. 0:11:59.436 --> 0:12:02.156 And nobody was hurt, right, that's right, that's right. 0:12:02.236 --> 0:12:07.556 So, and the the entire system, you know, the hydrogen storage, 0:12:07.596 --> 0:12:10.636 the fuel system, the hyders and fuel cell and all that, 0:12:10.676 --> 0:12:15.756 we're safe throughout the whole sequence. There was no leakage, 0:12:15.876 --> 0:12:17.956 there's no anything. 0:12:17.716 --> 0:12:20.356 I know, you know, you kept working on everything after that, 0:12:20.396 --> 0:12:22.836 And I understand you had a test flight earlier this 0:12:22.956 --> 0:12:24.836 year that was something of a milestone. 0:12:24.996 --> 0:12:28.956 Yes, so that was our third prototype. We've flown smaller 0:12:28.996 --> 0:12:32.956 planes before with our systems. This is our latest design. 0:12:33.116 --> 0:12:35.036 And how big is it? What was the plane that 0:12:35.076 --> 0:12:36.196 flew this year? 0:12:36.276 --> 0:12:37.516 It's a twenty seat aircraft? 0:12:37.716 --> 0:12:39.396 And is that do you hope to have a twenty 0:12:39.436 --> 0:12:42.836 seat plane in commercial use in the foreseeable future? 0:12:43.356 --> 0:12:45.916 So that's type of a plane. That size of a 0:12:45.916 --> 0:12:48.756 plane ten to twenty seat is our first launch target 0:12:48.836 --> 0:12:50.596 in two years twenty twenty five. 0:12:51.156 --> 0:12:53.956 And so does two years mean you mostly have it 0:12:53.996 --> 0:12:57.116 figured out and you just have to get regulatory approval? 0:12:57.196 --> 0:12:59.156 I mean just I'm sure it's not just, but like, 0:12:59.476 --> 0:13:01.636 do you basically know how to build that plane now? 0:13:01.676 --> 0:13:04.156 Are you confident that it works? 0:13:04.556 --> 0:13:07.756 Yeah? Pretty much, pretty much. We were finalizing the design 0:13:07.796 --> 0:13:11.356 of the engine to submit certification in the next six months. 0:13:11.436 --> 0:13:13.516 Do you do you have to fly it for thousands 0:13:13.556 --> 0:13:17.196 of hours or something? I mean, I imagine those regulatory requirements 0:13:17.236 --> 0:13:19.996 are quite stringent. A whole new kind of propulsion. 0:13:20.076 --> 0:13:23.556 We have to operate the engines for thousands of hours, 0:13:23.676 --> 0:13:26.556 we don't necessarily have to fly again. And that's part 0:13:26.556 --> 0:13:31.956 of our approach is that we work with existing aircraft types. Yeah, 0:13:32.396 --> 0:13:36.796 so our initial business model go to market is retrofitting 0:13:36.836 --> 0:13:39.716 the existing fleets. So we go to the operators and 0:13:39.756 --> 0:13:43.236 we say, hey, you got a fleet of hundreds of 0:13:43.356 --> 0:13:46.716 these aircraft, we can repower them with a better engine. 0:13:46.716 --> 0:13:52.356 Because while aircraft themselves last for thirty forty years in 0:13:52.396 --> 0:13:56.116 commercial service, especially in the small aircraft space, they go 0:13:56.196 --> 0:13:59.036 through multiple sets of engines over that light time. Huh. 0:13:59.076 --> 0:14:00.476 So it's like, hey, you're going to need a new 0:14:00.516 --> 0:14:02.996 engine for this plane anyways, let me sell you one 0:14:03.036 --> 0:14:06.316 of these fuels, right yeah, And is it right you 0:14:06.356 --> 0:14:08.436 have some number of orders. 0:14:08.036 --> 0:14:12.476 For correct those is that right? Yeah? Yeah, about fifteen 0:14:12.556 --> 0:14:15.236 hundred engines on pre order right now, so, oney, five 0:14:15.316 --> 0:14:19.036 hundred or so, and I think four out of top 0:14:19.156 --> 0:14:23.196 ten airlines worldwide are customers already with those pre orders, 0:14:23.236 --> 0:14:26.796 about ten billion dollars worth of you know, pre order revenue, 0:14:26.876 --> 0:14:27.676 future revenue. 0:14:27.716 --> 0:14:31.116 So what has to happen for you to actually sell 0:14:31.156 --> 0:14:33.556 those engines, to get those engines to those airlines? 0:14:33.636 --> 0:14:36.036 Oh, we have to get them certified, and we have 0:14:36.116 --> 0:14:40.836 to deliver on the performance targets that we have committed 0:14:40.876 --> 0:14:43.796 to with these airlines, right, which means that we have 0:14:43.876 --> 0:14:46.396 to develop certain amount of power so that that aircraft 0:14:46.476 --> 0:14:49.476 can take off in a certain distance and climb at 0:14:49.516 --> 0:14:51.716 a certain rates and all that. Then we know we 0:14:51.756 --> 0:14:52.156 can do it. 0:14:52.196 --> 0:14:55.036 You also need to get the infrastructure in place at airports, 0:14:55.116 --> 0:14:56.236 right Like that seems. 0:14:55.996 --> 0:14:59.436 Yeah, the infrastructure is actually everybody gets hung up on that. 0:14:59.636 --> 0:15:03.236 But we think that I'm interested, yeah, yeah, no, but 0:15:03.356 --> 0:15:08.836 everybody everybody is, okay, So, but we think that infrastructure 0:15:08.836 --> 0:15:10.916 is a really the easier part of the equation here 0:15:11.196 --> 0:15:12.116 Right in the. 0:15:12.156 --> 0:15:16.196 US, the total number of all commercial airports is just 0:15:16.236 --> 0:15:20.116 four hundred four hundred locations, and one hundred of those 0:15:20.196 --> 0:15:23.196 airports account for ninety five percent of the traffic. 0:15:23.276 --> 0:15:25.076 Right, The answer is, you don't need that many. 0:15:25.516 --> 0:15:28.956 But we you know, we were not attempting to build 0:15:28.956 --> 0:15:31.356 all the infrastructure as well. Right. We have partners like 0:15:31.396 --> 0:15:34.036 shel for example, is a major investor in zero Audia, 0:15:34.196 --> 0:15:38.036 and they are looking to bring hydrogen infrastructure to these 0:15:38.076 --> 0:15:40.276 airports as well. But we work with them in the 0:15:40.316 --> 0:15:44.836 back end. We aggregate that supply into our business model, 0:15:44.876 --> 0:15:47.236 and when we go to the airlines, we are the 0:15:47.276 --> 0:15:48.556 one stop contract. 0:15:50.836 --> 0:15:53.436 In a minute. What validis colleagues still have to figure 0:15:53.476 --> 0:15:56.156 out to get their first hydrogen fuel cell on a 0:15:56.156 --> 0:16:07.876 commercial plane. That's the end of the ads. Now we're 0:16:07.916 --> 0:16:11.436 going back to the show. You mentioned that the engines 0:16:12.036 --> 0:16:17.836 have to meet certain performance specifications. Are you there yet 0:16:17.836 --> 0:16:18.316 on those? 0:16:19.236 --> 0:16:22.836 Yeah? On the performance, we're we're almost there. We get 0:16:22.836 --> 0:16:25.956 the we get the actual power, we get the efficiency. 0:16:26.756 --> 0:16:31.236 What we're working on now is mostly around weight reduction 0:16:33.076 --> 0:16:36.036 for the engine. The engine is going to be about 0:16:36.036 --> 0:16:41.036 twice as heavy as the turbine engine that it replaces, 0:16:41.716 --> 0:16:44.436 so you take some trade off on the range of 0:16:44.516 --> 0:16:46.956 the aircraft, but not nearly as much as you would 0:16:46.996 --> 0:16:48.036 have to do with batteries. 0:16:48.196 --> 0:16:50.596 So these planes won't be able to fly as far 0:16:50.876 --> 0:16:54.556 as a jet fuel powered plane. So you're hoping to 0:16:54.636 --> 0:16:58.156 launch in small planes in a couple of years, and 0:16:58.236 --> 0:17:00.436 I know you want to eventually get to big planes, 0:17:00.436 --> 0:17:02.676 to the big commercial jets that you fly across the 0:17:02.676 --> 0:17:05.156 country in, or fly across the Atlantic in, or whatever. 0:17:06.156 --> 0:17:09.556 What is hard about about scaling in that way? What's 0:17:09.556 --> 0:17:11.676 hard about going from where you almost are now to 0:17:11.676 --> 0:17:13.116 where you want to be in ten years. 0:17:14.756 --> 0:17:18.716 Two things, two main things from the technology standpoint. One 0:17:18.916 --> 0:17:25.116 is we need to move from a sort of typical 0:17:26.596 --> 0:17:29.356 low temperature fuel cells that are used in the cars 0:17:29.876 --> 0:17:32.596 or types that they're using cars, to higher temperature fuel 0:17:32.636 --> 0:17:34.436 cells that are optimized for aviation. 0:17:34.596 --> 0:17:38.036 And so why do you need to develop essentially a 0:17:38.036 --> 0:17:40.436 new kind of fuel cell to fly bigger planes? 0:17:40.716 --> 0:17:48.676 Right? Because the more bigger planes require disproportionately more power too, right, 0:17:48.756 --> 0:17:53.116 So they're generally faster. Right, So all those jets they 0:17:53.156 --> 0:17:57.036 fly much faster, which means the power levels are significantly higher. 0:17:57.196 --> 0:17:59.796 So a plane that's twice as big requires way more 0:17:59.836 --> 0:18:00.436 than twice. 0:18:00.196 --> 0:18:02.076 As long, more than twice as much power. 0:18:02.156 --> 0:18:05.196 But that's hard, that's hard. You can't just build a 0:18:05.236 --> 0:18:06.236 bigger fuel cellar. 0:18:06.276 --> 0:18:08.756 But yeah, the reason that's hard with the current type 0:18:08.756 --> 0:18:11.676 of a few cells, at least currently using automotive is 0:18:11.716 --> 0:18:15.876 because when you scale power, you also scale the heat 0:18:15.916 --> 0:18:19.436 production because no, no system is one hundred percent efficient, 0:18:19.476 --> 0:18:22.356 so you have the heat that you need to remove 0:18:22.396 --> 0:18:27.516 from the system. And that, yeah, that's right inefficiency. And 0:18:27.556 --> 0:18:31.236 now for low temperature fuel cells, that heat is thrown 0:18:31.276 --> 0:18:35.676 off at low temperature and it's difficult to remove it because, 0:18:35.676 --> 0:18:40.916 for example, a good hot environment example is Phoenix, Arizona, 0:18:41.196 --> 0:18:44.396 in the middle of a summer, it's fifty degrees celsius 0:18:44.516 --> 0:18:48.716 on our runway, sometimes even more so. Your fuel cell 0:18:49.116 --> 0:18:52.076 typical fuel cell in a car operates at about sixty 0:18:52.436 --> 0:18:56.516 sixty five celsius internal temperature. So you now have sixty 0:18:56.556 --> 0:19:00.116 five versus fifty. That's not much delta that you can 0:19:00.236 --> 0:19:03.156 use to cool it, right, because if you're if your 0:19:03.196 --> 0:19:06.156 ambient temperature is the same as your core temper you 0:19:06.196 --> 0:19:08.916 cannot cool it right. And so what do you need 0:19:08.956 --> 0:19:11.796 to do is you need to either you know, have 0:19:12.276 --> 0:19:16.796 humongous heat exchangers or radiators, right, which is prohibitive because 0:19:16.836 --> 0:19:20.396 then if they weigh a lot, they introduced drag and 0:19:20.436 --> 0:19:23.876 all that. Or you can increase the temperature off the 0:19:23.996 --> 0:19:28.476 fuel cell, right and just even small, relatively small increases 0:19:28.516 --> 0:19:33.396 of temperature give you very significant benefits. So our inniuce 0:19:33.436 --> 0:19:38.476 technology is operating instead of sixty five seventies degrees cells 0:19:38.596 --> 0:19:41.516 is it operates at one eighty to two hundred C. 0:19:42.156 --> 0:19:45.596 But it's if you if you take again an example 0:19:45.636 --> 0:19:46.516 of Phoenix, right. 0:19:46.436 --> 0:19:49.996 Basically it can be air cooled the hotter, it runs. 0:19:50.876 --> 0:19:51.596 Just cooled. Right. 0:19:51.716 --> 0:19:54.676 That's that's like a fundamental kind of engineering problem that 0:19:54.756 --> 0:19:57.676 you have to solve is making a hotter fuel cell. 0:19:57.956 --> 0:20:01.116 That's right. So that's one. The second one is for 0:20:01.316 --> 0:20:04.756 large aircraft, you need to go from gaseous fuel storage 0:20:04.836 --> 0:20:08.996 to cryogenic liquid storage of hydrog on board because other 0:20:09.356 --> 0:20:13.916 you cannot store enough. Basically, So those compressed gas cylinders, 0:20:14.036 --> 0:20:17.076 while they're super simple, super safe, all those tanks, right, 0:20:17.196 --> 0:20:19.916 they're heavy because they need to contain that huge pressure. 0:20:20.556 --> 0:20:23.836 So you know, best in class right now is only 0:20:23.916 --> 0:20:28.156 eight percent of your fuel tank system is fuel. Ninety 0:20:28.196 --> 0:20:29.676 two percent is tank. 0:20:30.116 --> 0:20:33.356 Okay, oh wow, so that's the tanks you're putting on 0:20:33.396 --> 0:20:35.956 the twenty seat plane. It's mostly tank. 0:20:35.876 --> 0:20:36.636 It's mostly tank. 0:20:36.716 --> 0:20:38.276 It's brutal, right, that's brutal. 0:20:38.436 --> 0:20:42.036 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now what helps is, of course, hydrogen 0:20:42.076 --> 0:20:46.116 itself is three times better energy density than jet fuel, 0:20:46.236 --> 0:20:48.836 and then with fuel cell you use it twice as efficient, 0:20:49.436 --> 0:20:52.196 so you're sort of six times better than jet fuel. 0:20:52.276 --> 0:20:55.036 But I'm still bummed that your tank full of hydrogen 0:20:55.116 --> 0:20:57.716 is ninety percent tank and ten percent hydrogen, right, That 0:20:57.796 --> 0:20:58.996 makes me sad, that's right. 0:20:58.956 --> 0:21:02.676 That's right. So in order to move from that, you 0:21:02.756 --> 0:21:05.596 have to go cry agenic liquid, which is low low 0:21:05.636 --> 0:21:09.116 pressure storage, so you don't need those you know, hue. 0:21:09.636 --> 0:21:12.116 But it has to be super cold. Is probably has 0:21:12.156 --> 0:21:13.036 to be super cold. 0:21:13.556 --> 0:21:15.396 Yeah, you have to you have to be super cold. 0:21:15.396 --> 0:21:19.076 But there, you know, people know how to store those things, right. 0:21:19.116 --> 0:21:23.996 AT's the vacuum insulated yours? Right, Yeah, like a thermos. Yeah, yeah, 0:21:23.996 --> 0:21:28.836 exactly right, a thermos, Yeah, carbon composite thermos. So then 0:21:29.036 --> 0:21:33.796 most off your tank is actually fuel right by weight, 0:21:34.396 --> 0:21:37.156 and that's that That changes the dynamics quite a bit, 0:21:37.276 --> 0:21:40.876 and that that's how you you're going to make airplanes 0:21:41.116 --> 0:21:45.876 go potentially even further than today's kerosene planes, right if 0:21:45.916 --> 0:21:48.396 anybody can handle more than twenty hours on the plane. 0:21:48.476 --> 0:21:51.836 So you need much much colder fuel and much hotter 0:21:51.996 --> 0:21:53.076 fuel cells. 0:21:53.556 --> 0:21:56.356 That's right, Yeah, that's right, which is actually a very 0:21:56.516 --> 0:22:00.236