Speaker 1: Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies. These episodes are based on. These are our
Speaker 2: stories done done, Hey bitches, It's That's Messed Up an
Speaker 2: SVU podcast. My name is Lisa Traeger and my name
Speaker 2: is Kara Klank.
Speaker 1: And every week we dive into an episode of Law
Speaker 1: and Order SVU, we get out of the pool, we
Speaker 1: dive back into the true crime. Then we interview an artist,
Speaker 1: an actor, someone involved with the episode. And before all that,
Speaker 1: we just chat and check in on each other's lives. Lisa,
Speaker 1: you always have fun shit going on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we don't text NonStop it Yeah, all times,
Speaker 2: we have to check up through zoom. Well, I do
Speaker 2: have some spooky season news. I feel like I might
Speaker 2: have watched this as a kid. I don't know, but
Speaker 2: I watched Alvira with my friend in Chicago, and it
Speaker 2: was such an enjoyable experience and so ahead of her time.
Speaker 2: She is getting sexually assaulted throughout the whole movie and
Speaker 2: beating the shit out of men, and like being mad
Speaker 2: that people are grabbing her, being sassy to assholes and
Speaker 2: like have The first five minutes is her leaving her
Speaker 2: job because the new manager like assaults I don't think
Speaker 2: I've seen it and touches her tits.
Speaker 1: Wow, I've seen like so much Alvira, but I don't
Speaker 1: know if I've seen like a full No, we just.
Speaker 2: Watch We just watched drag Race. We just know, how's
Speaker 2: your head? A kid, I knew who Elvira was when
Speaker 2: I was a kid.
Speaker 1: It was like I've seen like bits, but I don't
Speaker 1: think i'd ever seen like the full movie. But yeah,
Speaker 1: she's ann and she just came out after like two
Speaker 1: decades or something.
Speaker 2: And yeah, it's really timely. But she was ahead of
Speaker 2: her time in the subject matter, the humor and everything.
Speaker 2: And I was with my friend Marty and him and
Speaker 2: his girl Sarah. They love you like they are the
Speaker 2: king and queens of YouTube clips, like we watch old
Speaker 2: commercials like they always have a new genre of YouTube.
Speaker 2: Should have showed me. And so right after we watched it,
Speaker 2: they were like, let's watch Roger and Ebert talk about it.
Speaker 2: And then we watched Roger and Ebert talk about Elvira.
Speaker 1: That is one of my favorite things to do, and
Speaker 1: that's something I didn't really start doing until LA. Like
Speaker 1: I don't know why I didn't do this with people
Speaker 1: in New York. Maybe it was just like when people
Speaker 1: started getting smart TVs where like their TVs were hooked
Speaker 1: up to YouTube.
Speaker 2: Was more like around when I was in and out of.
Speaker 1: LA, but like going to people's houses and just being like,
Speaker 1: oh no, this is my favorite video and like just
Speaker 1: show it. Like watching a bunch of like funny YouTube
Speaker 1: clips is like really fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they're like professionals, So anything I suggest, they're like,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, they we've seen that. Oh okay, And I'm like, okay, cool,
Speaker 2: Like I am never the ones suggesting everything I suggest.
Speaker 2: They're like, that's from nine years ago. Oh, I mean
Speaker 2: it's it's when I messaged you go you and my
Speaker 2: all like this teen singing paparazzi at a show and
Speaker 2: I sent it to Dave Mazzonia Matt Rogers and they
Speaker 2: were like this came out fourteen years ago. Like they're like,
Speaker 2: you truly are a girl who gets it, Like you're
Speaker 2: so late to the game, but you're trying to be
Speaker 2: an ally and I'm like, I'm bawling at this guy.
Speaker 2: He's probably has a full finance job, like he's probably
Speaker 2: married with a child by now, and I'm like, this
Speaker 2: kid's got it. I'm late, I'm late.
Speaker 1: I'm the same. I'll be like, have you seen the kid?
Speaker 1: I'll be like, have you seen the man Tito lip sync?
Speaker 2: The news?
Speaker 1: Like guys or like I just watched Like yeah, i
Speaker 1: will watch the shit that's so old, and I'll watch
Speaker 1: the same ones over and over.
Speaker 2: That really cracked me up. But I'm like, have you
Speaker 2: seen Charlie bit my finger?
Speaker 1: And they're like, yeah, have you seen that kid that's
Speaker 1: at the State Fair going?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 2: Apparently apparently YouTube? So that was my spooky season thing.
Speaker 2: And I am doing a show at Union Hall in
Speaker 2: New York City on Halloween.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, this episode comes out a few days before Halloween.
Speaker 1: So if you haven't gotten tickets, We've posted about in
Speaker 1: our stories, but go to Lisa's page Glitter Cheese on
Speaker 1: Instagram and get all the scoop on that New York
Speaker 1: show because that's going to be dope. And Union Hall
Speaker 1: is such a fun venue and not huge, so tickets
Speaker 1: will go and it will sell out, So got them quickly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's the start of the night, so then
Speaker 2: you can party all night. I just knew if I
Speaker 2: didn't have structured fun, I wouldn't wear a costume. And
Speaker 2: I knew I wanted to be fun like I need.
Speaker 1: Are you are you announcing in advance what your costume
Speaker 1: is because I know what it is? Or are you
Speaker 1: waiting for people to see it?
Speaker 2: I have to wait? I have to ready. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: I think I'm going to be a hit. I think
Speaker 2: New York City is going to come out for me.
Speaker 2: I think they're going to be excited for what I
Speaker 2: am offering. Well, it's gonna be in West Nayak the
Speaker 2: weekend before. Listen, I'm on the road and I, oh,
Speaker 2: it's eleven eleven. Make a wish. Oh, you guys don't know.
Speaker 2: You can be listening to this at all times. But
Speaker 2: it just hit eleven eleven, which means we're doing everything
Speaker 2: right in our lives. We're on the right path, and
Speaker 2: we're exactly where we need to be. So that's a
Speaker 2: pretty exciting reassurance from the universe. Except my ear piercing
Speaker 2: is infected. That's just like, but you're wearing real gold.
Speaker 2: I don't get it. And I've seen you at Moontower.
Speaker 2: You were really doubts in that thing with the end
Speaker 2: septic or whatever. Really. Oh, also it's funny and speaking
Speaker 2: of muntar, I sent Margaret Show a message because I'm
Speaker 2: desperate for her love, and Kara messaged me going, Margaret
Speaker 2: Show messaged us. I go, no, I messaged her, but
Speaker 2: she did respond.
Speaker 1: She did thought she sent us a message, but I
Speaker 1: didn't realize that. Lee's never mind, you guys get it.
Speaker 1: But like she did respond, so I, you.
Speaker 2: Know, no, I think the reason is and I read
Speaker 2: about the ears. So with tattoos, like you have to
Speaker 2: be careful, but after a few days, like it's fine,
Speaker 2: you know, it's it'll be fine. But piercings, I didn't
Speaker 2: really They're an open wound, yeah, and you have to
Speaker 2: treat it like a wound. So I accidentally, I think
Speaker 2: in Chicago while partying, maybe didn't wash it for a
Speaker 2: day or two, or like I slept on my dirty
Speaker 2: she you know, I touched it. Well. My sister told
Speaker 2: me to twist it, and then everything I read was
Speaker 2: like do not twist your earring.
Speaker 1: So oh yeah, that's like maybe that might be like
Speaker 1: an old wives tale, yeah thing and.
Speaker 2: It's like your dirty hands and in the cut, so
Speaker 2: I think it was just like a two day Like
Speaker 2: I was just like kind of shady for two days
Speaker 2: and that was enough to get infected. And I was like, oh, yes,
Speaker 2: piercings are wounds. Tattoos are also wounds, but they're just
Speaker 2: more relaxing to take care of. I think for sure
Speaker 2: this is two months.
Speaker 1: It's gonna hurt, oh girl, as I told you when
Speaker 1: I was a kid, and yes, I was a kid,
Speaker 1: so I'm sure it was like dirty and I'm sure
Speaker 1: my mom.
Speaker 2: Did not get me like pure gold jewelry.
Speaker 1: But like I went through like two years of in
Speaker 1: and out of having my ears infected, but now they're perfect,
Speaker 1: Like I can not wear earrings, wear earrings like, well,
Speaker 1: I can wear cheap earrings, I can wear anything. Like
Speaker 1: my ears are like I'm just indestructible now. But it
Speaker 1: did take like some time to toughen them up.
Speaker 2: And it's just embarrassing to go through this much pain
Speaker 2: because I want to be like Emma Chamberlain. The only
Speaker 2: reason I want second second Pierce Tolls is because of
Speaker 2: a twenty year old YouTuber and that and now I'm
Speaker 2: like infected and in pain and can't sleep, like it
Speaker 2: is pretty Upsey. I gotta do what you gotta do.
Speaker 2: You're you're an influencer on the rise. I'm trying, so
Speaker 2: I do want to give a shout out. So I
Speaker 2: got to stay at the Drake Hotel in Chicago, which
Speaker 2: was my childhood dream. And did I talk about this
Speaker 2: on the last time. You didn't. You just told me personally, Okay,
Speaker 2: we'll cut that or not. You guys seem to like us.
Speaker 2: I met some nice people at the Chicago show that
Speaker 2: I did. It was really exciting. My old nanny boss
Speaker 2: was there. But I got to say at the Drake Hotel,
Speaker 2: which was my childhood dream. I've wanted to stay there
Speaker 2: since I was a kid. Like when you drive down
Speaker 2: Lake Show Drive, there's like a ga zbo to the
Speaker 2: left I've always wanted to get married in. And then
Speaker 2: to the right was this beautiful hotel. So I got
Speaker 2: to stay in it. I got to go to the bar.
Speaker 2: I had a Manhattan like I was just living my
Speaker 2: It seemed like Trey McDougal from Sex and the City
Speaker 2: would hang out there. It's old money, letter dark yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: yea yeah, Titanic vibes. You know, it's not hip, you know,
Speaker 2: they're known for tea time. But I met a former
Speaker 2: NFL player who is an announcer on the Big Ten network.
Speaker 2: He has a championship with Ohio State. He's told me
Speaker 2: his wife loves SVU. I hope she's now listening. But
Speaker 2: Joshua Perry and so because I saw his Louis Vuitton
Speaker 2: wallet and he's like, oh yeah, I stay here for
Speaker 2: work for fifteen weeks in the fall. And I go, sir,
Speaker 2: you're clearly in football. I'm not a fool. I'm not
Speaker 2: a fool.
Speaker 1: I would never I would have been like, oh cool,
Speaker 1: your company sends you to Chicago.
Speaker 2: Nido, what do you do? No, Immediately I'm like brand name.
Speaker 2: I was embarrassed to put my fanny pack on the
Speaker 2: bar because of his Louis wallet. But fifteen weeks in
Speaker 2: the fall is just so specific. So I got to
Speaker 2: like hang out with this cool football player and I
Speaker 2: was like, this is this is what dreams are made
Speaker 2: out of. And at the Drake they have couches in
Speaker 2: the elevator. You could take a seat if you want.
Speaker 1: Ooh wow, I've never seen a couch in an elevator.
Speaker 2: That's excited. Yeah, just see. And I found an Instagram
Speaker 2: called eating in Bed and my new goal in life
Speaker 2: is to be featured on it.
Speaker 1: Oh, anyone got the tip for Lisa to get on
Speaker 1: eating in bed? I am actually the opposite, as so
Speaker 1: much of our personality is are opposite.
Speaker 2: I never eat in bed, and it makes me nervous
Speaker 2: to do it. Yeah. No, Sometimes I'm sleeping and I
Speaker 2: feel crumbs all around me. It is part of no.
Speaker 1: I listened to this podcast with Casey Wilson and she
Speaker 1: constantly she has like full meals in bed, and she
Speaker 1: talks about it all the time, and it's just like that.
Speaker 1: It gives me anxiety even to hear her talk about it.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, you're eating like a huge,
Speaker 1: like a huge takeout meal in a hotel. I have
Speaker 1: done it because I don't care as much. But in
Speaker 1: my own personal bed, no, Well, I also don't have
Speaker 1: a table, so it's tough.
Speaker 2: It makes it difficult.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: The trick in hotels is if you have two beds,
Speaker 2: once for eating sleeping. Yeah. Yeah, Wait, are you telling
Speaker 2: people for Halloween or are you keeping it secret too?
Speaker 2: Yours is a good costume, you know what.
Speaker 1: I actually saw Georgia on the weekend and was like
Speaker 1: we were going to tell each other our costumes and
Speaker 1: then we're like, let's just wait and like find out.
Speaker 1: So I'm not going to say because I don't want anyone.
Speaker 1: I don't know, not that I even know if Georgia
Speaker 1: listens to our podcast. But I was just like, I'm
Speaker 1: keeping it secret. So I'll tell you guys. You'll see,
Speaker 1: We'll put our costumes on our Instagram, right, We'll like
Speaker 1: take pictures and show on our Instagram like what we
Speaker 1: were for Halloween.
Speaker 2: So oh oh yes, I will be and mine is
Speaker 2: so obvious. I won't even have to do a side
Speaker 2: by side of the real thing, like you'll see and
Speaker 2: you'll be like, wow, yeah. It also might be a
Speaker 2: popular one this year too. I don't. I don't really
Speaker 2: who knows, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think yours is really fun and yours is a
Speaker 1: very I think both of us are doing, if you know,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of costumes. Your description of the Drake
Speaker 1: kind of reminded me of the Campbell Apartment. Have you
Speaker 1: ever been there in New York? Never even heard of it.
Speaker 1: It's this really like beautiful bar right off of it's
Speaker 1: attached to Grand Sound, and it's what you're describing like
Speaker 1: dark leather, old money, Like the drinks.
Speaker 2: Are like twenty dollars, you know, like it's but it's uh.
Speaker 1: Next time you're in New York, if you want that
Speaker 1: kind of experience, you should go well.
Speaker 2: And you know, some people commented like, oh, but that's
Speaker 2: like a powerful move, and then some people. I don't know,
Speaker 2: but it was fun to be sitting in the tea
Speaker 2: room in a sweatshirt while like high as hell, while
Speaker 2: everyone is in tuxedos gowns, really dressed up for the affair,
Speaker 2: and I was just like postmating dunkin Donuts to the Titanic.
Speaker 2: I just heading down in my brawsers sweatpants and so
Speaker 2: I liked that. And then I stole the door sign,
Speaker 2: of course, so I have my drink door.
Speaker 1: I always have to create a memory for myself. You're
Speaker 1: very vivian at the plaza or whatever. No, No, where
Speaker 1: is she theis?
Speaker 2: No? No, I'm talking to woman woman okay, eloise hit
Speaker 2: the plase. No, No, what she's saying. I'm pretty woman
Speaker 2: like the Beverly Hilton or something like that. But I
Speaker 2: don't remember. But she was more slutty, I mean, if
Speaker 2: I could, Yeah, she's more slutty, but.
Speaker 1: She was definitely kind of like, I don't care, you
Speaker 1: know that vibe?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have nothing to prove here. It feels nice.
Speaker 2: It feels nice to be so chill. Also, last night
Speaker 2: I ran into someone that's obsessed with forensic files and
Speaker 2: we got to talk back and forth about our favorite
Speaker 2: forensic files and everyone around us was disgusted and why.
Speaker 2: And I met someone else that collects Simpson's toys. I
Speaker 2: had a really what a weekend, a real wild weekend.
Speaker 2: And I don't know if I told you this. I
Speaker 2: ran into Asafali. Do you know him? Yeah, you guys
Speaker 2: know his face. He's like in every single TV show
Speaker 2: and movie right now. He's crushing the game. And so
Speaker 2: we were talking at a show and I guess we
Speaker 2: talked for like forty forty five minutes. And the photographer
Speaker 2: in another comic, we're standing near us, and the photographer went,
Speaker 2: I've been trying to wait for a pause in the
Speaker 2: conversation to take a photo, and you guys didn't pause.
Speaker 2: That's the longest uninterrupted conversation I've ever seen in my life.
Speaker 2: And the other comic was like, you guys didn't take
Speaker 2: a drink, not a breath, not a moment, He goes,
Speaker 2: I've never seen anything like it, And I guess me
Speaker 2: and Auso just talked so much that they felt uncomfortable
Speaker 2: to interrupt us.
Speaker 1: And I was like, wow, that's there's there's a reason
Speaker 1: you have a born to chat bitcoin tattoo on your body.
Speaker 2: I mean, you are you are born to chat. That's
Speaker 2: who I watched Alvira with as who I have the
Speaker 2: matching tattool right right right. But I just was like
Speaker 2: laughing so hard that they kept they just like we
Speaker 2: just couldn't stop talking. Oh wait, do you love that
Speaker 2: Joe Cooy and Chelsea Handler are in love? Because I do. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's cute.
Speaker 1: It's so funny to me, because I was obsessed with
Speaker 1: Chelsea Handler, Like I was obsessed with the show Chelsea.
Speaker 1: I like I watched it like truly every night, and
Speaker 1: like he was always on, and like I never even
Speaker 1: saw a spark between them, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Like I never saw any kind of thing like that.
Speaker 1: And so when she heard really announced it, I was like,
Speaker 1: is this a gag? And then I was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, they're so happy, and like she seems so excited.
Speaker 2: I'm happy for her, yeah, and she commented like age
Speaker 2: is a wonderful thing or something like that. Yeah, Like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, I like love their love and I'm
Speaker 2: ready for this journey.
Speaker 1: It's a lot, I feel like where people grow up
Speaker 1: and then they realize that their old friend is kind
Speaker 1: of like the one you know, I mean yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're both like successful and funny and attractive.
Speaker 2: And then Ausuf brought this up, but he's like, and
Speaker 2: they're age appropriate. That never happens in Hollywood. You have
Speaker 2: Dane Cook fucking stroll in high school. So it's it's
Speaker 2: exciting to I don't know. I'm like I they can
Speaker 2: never post enough. I want more and more.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they're probably going to have a really fun
Speaker 1: like Instagram life and then the breakup could be explosive.
Speaker 2: But let's hope they know. I'm gonna see wedding picks.
Speaker 2: I'm on that train. I love true love.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, No, I'm definitely I'm happy for her,
Speaker 1: Like you know, I.
Speaker 2: Have a new crush and I'm trying to not repeat
Speaker 2: patterns and project everything onto this person and be casual
Speaker 2: at this. Yes you do, oh yes, I do, Yes,
Speaker 2: I do yes. I do. Sorry, Sorry so annoying I do.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Sorry, I.
Speaker 1: Just thought for a second it was a different thing.
Speaker 2: I was like, I know about it, of course, and
Speaker 2: I'm trying to stake Oh my god, we have to
Speaker 2: move on. But we have to talk about the news too,
Speaker 2: before we get into this horrific episode. Actually I hit
Speaker 2: well because it's just whatever. I'm making connections to sex
Speaker 2: and the city that don't even make sense. But there
Speaker 2: was news. I didn't go too much into it because
Speaker 2: things like this upset me, and most of Kara and
Speaker 2: my lives are researching horrific things, so sometimes I try
Speaker 2: to like protect my energy. But there was a rape
Speaker 2: on a Pennsylvania train and people just watched and did
Speaker 2: nothing and videotaped it. Yeah, I'm the same of you.
Speaker 1: This popped up on my red This popped up on
Speaker 1: Reddit for me, and I couldn't. I couldn't watch the
Speaker 1: video and I couldn't I couldn't like get like too
Speaker 1: too deep into it because it's truly a nightmare of
Speaker 1: mine because of an SVU, Like everybody, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: that I'm not sure the titled the episode, but the
Speaker 1: episode with Nicole Sullivan from Mad TV where she's like
Speaker 1: this boss bitch that gets onto the train first thing
Speaker 1: with her coffee, and then like really quickly, this man
Speaker 1: gets on the train like rapes her on, like the
Speaker 1: C train, which was the train I took every day
Speaker 1: in New York.
Speaker 2: And all these people just watch.
Speaker 1: And are like ugh, and it's like very you know,
Speaker 1: I'm sure everybody wants to bring in like Kitty Genevez
Speaker 1: and like the bystander effect and everything, but that scene
Speaker 1: haunted me. And then that's exactly what just happened. And
Speaker 1: it's like I understand everybody thinks they're helping by getting
Speaker 1: shit on video, but like if there's a way that
Speaker 1: you can help without endangering yourself.
Speaker 2: Or you know, you're stopping a rape, like what the fuck?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really so horrific, Like I can't even.
Speaker 2: And it's a group of you, like you could have
Speaker 2: done it. I mean, I never mind my business, but
Speaker 2: you never know what you're how you're gonna act in
Speaker 2: the moment. You know, you think you're preps for stuff,
Speaker 2: and then you know, it's what we talk about. You
Speaker 2: can't act normal and abnormal circumstances. But I just can't
Speaker 2: imagine sitting watching someone get raped. There's no fucking way.
Speaker 2: And I actually know that because I have intervened in
Speaker 2: multiple things throughout my life. Content.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean hopefully they caught they got
Speaker 1: the guy, right. I mean I didn't even look into
Speaker 1: it enough, but I hope they got the guy.
Speaker 2: They got the guy. Hannah knows they got the guy.
Speaker 3: I think the most horrific thing though about the news
Speaker 3: article is that it lasted over six minutes in the
Speaker 3: previous forty five minutes before he was harassing her in
Speaker 3: front of people. Oh so that really people need to
Speaker 3: step up their case.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: Like if you're just sitting there and taping it, I
Speaker 1: feel like you should be like ashamed of yourself.
Speaker 2: It's like, it's like horrific. I bet those people will
Speaker 2: hope fully live with this guilt and shame for the
Speaker 2: rest of their lives. I hope it weighs heavy on
Speaker 2: them forever. Yeah, because it is.
Speaker 1: Go get a conductor, Go get like I don't know,
Speaker 1: go get somebody a ress.
Speaker 2: The emergence the emergency thing.
Speaker 1: Like there's ways you can do if you feel physically
Speaker 1: anxious or you that you are like know, compromised in
Speaker 1: a way that you can't help physically, like there's got
Speaker 1: you know, there's things you can do, like Jesus.
Speaker 2: But what is it? What is it? Is it? Like
Speaker 2: I is it the I don't want to be wrong?
Speaker 1: Is it?
Speaker 2: It's not my business? Is it? Maybe she want? Like
Speaker 2: what is in the minds of the people.
Speaker 1: I think it's a fear usually, I mean I don't know,
Speaker 1: Like I said, like I feel I just told you
Speaker 1: guys this story off camera. But like I one time,
Speaker 1: my sister and I walked him on to a huge
Speaker 1: crowd watching a homeless guy get beat up, and I
Speaker 1: got right up to the guy's face, and my sister
Speaker 1: was halfway down the block, like she's so such a
Speaker 1: nervous person, like that flight is her response and fight
Speaker 1: was more my response. And that's just I think that's
Speaker 1: like maybe just an inherent thing. But when you're on
Speaker 1: like a train, and like, I don't know, there's I
Speaker 1: just feel like there's things you can do. If it's
Speaker 1: not physically getting blocking it yourself.
Speaker 2: There's other things you can do. And you know what,
Speaker 2: I actually have a positive way to get us into
Speaker 2: this episode that is not watching someone get raped on
Speaker 2: a train and it is Alyssa a friend, a comedian,
Speaker 2: a baker. Our friend, Lindsay Adams got secret married this weekend. Yes,
Speaker 2: so congrats Lindsay. If you're listening, I know you are.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Lindsay for allowing your marriage to segue us
Speaker 1: into our episode and off of this horrific news.
Speaker 2: I knew you did it.
Speaker 1: For us and we just if you guys watched the
Speaker 1: live show, she was one of our comedians that came
Speaker 1: on and did trivia when we did our virtual live show.
Speaker 1: And we're so happy for them. I love them so much.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So Lindsay and Nick cool. They've been together for
Speaker 2: like a decade.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they did like a fun courthouse thing, but they
Speaker 1: looked really beautiful and it was awesome. But yeah, let's
Speaker 1: get going. We have a classic p for you today
Speaker 1: and an amazing interview and yeah, just we have a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff for you.
Speaker 2: Oh right.
Speaker 1: Chameleon Baby, Season four, Episode one, the premiere.
Speaker 2: Of season four of Long Orders for You. They're really
Speaker 2: hitting their stride here.
Speaker 1: Not to be confused with a really great podcast that
Speaker 1: I think I've shouted out on this podcast before called
Speaker 1: Chameleon that I was really obsessed with the first season
Speaker 1: I haven't watched the second season, but I mean, listen
Speaker 1: to it.
Speaker 2: But it's great anyway.
Speaker 1: We open on some kind of like very techno since
Speaker 1: party happening.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's a sex club. You don't really know what
Speaker 1: it is. Initially everybody is lots of butts are being grabbed.
Speaker 1: It's safe to say it's a sex club.
Speaker 2: You I don't know.
Speaker 1: I never in New York was like, oh, that's a
Speaker 1: sex club walking by a place, but I guess some
Speaker 1: clubs have sexy nights. I don't know, Liza, any.
Speaker 2: Sex clubs, so you are, yeah, but you have to know.
Speaker 2: It's like if you know, you know, you're not.
Speaker 1: You can't. You're not going to walk by and just
Speaker 1: see a sex club. I went to clubs where like
Speaker 1: people were doing coke and stuff. I never was like, oh, hey,
Speaker 1: we're going to a sex club to night, or like
Speaker 1: none of my friends were like the other day I
Speaker 1: went to a sex club, Like, I don't know. We
Speaker 1: maybe we have separate friends. Yeah, oh, maybe we have
Speaker 1: separate friends. We definitely do have a lot of separate friends.
Speaker 1: So I'm asking you to tell me.
Speaker 2: Yes, there are sex clubs in New York have you
Speaker 2: gone to Canada, I have not known. Oh, okay, but
Speaker 2: they exist. No, I know, Oh I know, I know,
Speaker 2: I know. I'm just saying.
Speaker 1: In my experience of New York, I was like I
Speaker 1: was at clubs that were letting you sneak cigarettes when
Speaker 1: the laws first changed. I was never in a sex club,
Speaker 1: but maybe never say never, Okay, so you know, you
Speaker 1: definitely know it's a sex club because suddenly the NYPD
Speaker 1: raids the place that doesn't really happen at like Marquis.
Speaker 1: So there's a few like makeshift fuck stalls in the back,
Speaker 1: so it is very much a sex club.
Speaker 2: And there's a bar in a DJ of course at
Speaker 2: this sex club.
Speaker 1: And then one of the sex workers is telling the
Speaker 1: cops that a guy tried to rape her, and this
Speaker 1: one cop is being very two thousand and two about it.
Speaker 1: He's like, if they don't pay you, it's not rape,
Speaker 1: it's theft of service, like he's very not sensitive to
Speaker 1: sex work. And she insists that she was attacked and
Speaker 1: wants to report it. And now Benson and Stable are
Speaker 1: on the scene and this douchey Wall Street guys walking
Speaker 1: by them and he goes, I didn't know what kind
Speaker 1: of club. This was like he's me being like, is
Speaker 1: this a sex club? And Benson has her very very
Speaker 1: butch haircut, and it's like your flies down. She says,
Speaker 1: it's so nonchalant. It's a very fun line because this
Speaker 1: guy's like, I had no idea, and it's like you
Speaker 1: just were getting your dick.
Speaker 2: Suffer from ago when having your fly down was the
Speaker 2: most embarrassing thing that could ever happen, and now it's like, truly,
Speaker 2: we were with people and I was like, your flies down.
Speaker 2: Someone zipped it and it meant nothing, Like it wasn't
Speaker 2: embarrassing and nothing. It means nothing anymore. Yeah, it was
Speaker 2: like the hugest embarrassment that you could ever live through.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you would say X, y Z like code words
Speaker 1: to let people know that their fly was down.
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 1: It was truly, Yeah, definitely a humiliating moment back in
Speaker 1: the day.
Speaker 2: Now maybe we've embraced it.
Speaker 1: The name of the sex worker who's making the report
Speaker 1: says her name is she and Tilly, but it's actually
Speaker 1: they were like, let's get your real name, babe, and
Speaker 1: she's like, it's Lisa Perez and she actually played by
Speaker 1: Sara Ramirez from Grey's Anatomy fame and this is her
Speaker 1: second appearance on SVU. Actually, I'm sorry, but Shantilly does
Speaker 1: not roll off the tongue.
Speaker 2: I know. That's not a sexy name or an easy
Speaker 2: name or a fun name to say at all. You know.
Speaker 1: The only thing I could think of for the angle
Speaker 1: would be like, if you're trying to get like southern
Speaker 1: businessmen that are there like being turists, like Shantilly has
Speaker 1: like a Southern kind of like genteel thing to it
Speaker 1: that that's my only grasp at a straw for that name.
Speaker 1: It's not a great sexy name. No, So they're Benson
Speaker 1: and Stabler aren't really giving Shantilly the time of day either.
Speaker 1: They're kind of like, okay, what happened, and like Stabler
Speaker 1: is like very much rolling his eyes while he gets
Speaker 1: out of tiny notepad to take down her info. And
Speaker 1: then they get interrupted by these other cops that are like,
Speaker 1: you gotta come see this, And they go into the
Speaker 1: bathroom and there's just a dead woman hanging from a
Speaker 1: belt by the back of the room stall door. So
Speaker 1: not great, and Shantilli slash Lisa is there. She goes,
Speaker 1: oh my god, that's Randy. I told you, guys, and
Speaker 1: then it's the credits, so we're starting to think, Okay,
Speaker 1: there might be somebody who's out there killing sex workers
Speaker 1: in a serial manner. The cops are still not being
Speaker 1: very cool with Shantilly. At the top of the of
Speaker 1: the next act, she is being very sassy to Munch,
Speaker 1: Kragan and Finn though I kind of like her, but
Speaker 1: why wouldn't she be Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, she's being
Speaker 1: really funny and like, you guys aren't listening to me.
Speaker 1: You're not taking me seriously. Like she is ahead of
Speaker 1: her time for sure. We find out the dead girl's
Speaker 1: name is Randy aka Goodiva Chocolatey.
Speaker 2: I like a diva, you like, yeah, no, I was
Speaker 2: just wondering.
Speaker 1: Your your sense of it compared to Shantilly.
Speaker 2: Well, no, Goodiva, rich, smooth, delicious. I understand that, you know, elegant.
Speaker 1: That's yeah, that's not a for Rochet, that's a Goodiva baby,
Speaker 1: right right, Okay, So Goodiva has worked in the club
Speaker 1: a little over a year.
Speaker 2: I kind of love the name Godiva. Now I'm having
Speaker 2: a moment seeing another future for my life.
Speaker 1: A screen name, something a tattoo could work.
Speaker 2: Something good dive into your life. Well, because I used
Speaker 2: to tell you if you sign up for the Godiva Club,
Speaker 2: you can get one free chocolate a month. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: I would take a nie, sir, a nephew to them
Speaker 2: all and I'd be like, get a snack, babe, and
Speaker 2: I'll get them one chocolate.
Speaker 1: Whoa cool aunt with the chocolates.
Speaker 3: You know, Chantilly is a type of frosting, right, No,
Speaker 3: someone will call you out on it if you never
Speaker 3: watched bake Off.
Speaker 2: It's a type of very sweet frosting for a cake.
Speaker 2: So they kind of go hand.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's why I think of Chantilly lace.
Speaker 2: I don't know. We'll cut it. Wait wait, wait, why
Speaker 2: don't we leave it in?
Speaker 1: We obviously have got two non British Bakeoff people here,
Speaker 1: and if we can avoid people, if I can avoid
Speaker 1: seventy five DM saying Shantilli's a frosting, I'd love to.
Speaker 1: So we find out that good Dive has worked in
Speaker 1: this club a little over. Ye, she's got two priors
Speaker 1: for prostitution, and Lisa Slash Chantilly is like sassing the cops.
Speaker 1: She's like, oh, you guys are taking a break, and
Speaker 1: then she's like nudging the sketch artist's arms like she's
Speaker 1: definitely a character. And then Benson like goes to try
Speaker 1: to talk to her, like you know, a woman to woman,
Speaker 1: and she takes off her wig, like she's wearing this
Speaker 1: blonde wig with bangs, which you can tell is a wig.
Speaker 1: But when she takes it off, her hair underneath looks perfect,
Speaker 1: Like it's very shocking. I'm like, you just have a
Speaker 1: full blowout underneath a wig and you've been working all night.
Speaker 1: I don't think so that shit's gonna be matted down
Speaker 1: and sweaty.
Speaker 2: But they're the sake of television, very rock Sy Andrews, Yeah,
Speaker 2: thick and juicy of her way to go.
Speaker 1: Baby, Yeah, it was like a wig and a wig reveal,
Speaker 1: Yes for sure. And Lisa says, you know what, like
Speaker 1: nobody watches out for us, we watch out for ourselves.
Speaker 1: I should have listened to Sister Peg. She warned them
Speaker 1: about this, like asshole who's out there trying to choke
Speaker 1: girls out. So now we go to talk to Sister Peg,
Speaker 1: the patron saint of good people.
Speaker 2: Sister Peg keeps a bad trick list.
Speaker 1: Like John's to avoid and you know, they take a
Speaker 1: look at it and they're kind of making fun of it,
Speaker 1: which is like rude, that's like, oh, this guy punches you,
Speaker 1: this one picks you up here, blah blah blah. And
Speaker 1: they're like this is it and it's like, yeah, well
Speaker 1: she's doing more than you're doing so and they're like, well,
Speaker 1: if you could give us the girl, if you could
Speaker 1: tell us the girls who have said that I have
Speaker 1: gotten away from this man who's tried to choke them
Speaker 1: or whatever and rape them, we can, you know, try
Speaker 1: to drop a profile or find the guy. And she's like,
Speaker 1: my policy is no cops, no offense.
Speaker 2: It's like, you can't take offense from.
Speaker 1: Sister Pat and she says she'll show the sketch that
Speaker 1: they have to the girls, the sketch that Lisa Seles
Speaker 1: hintil he was working on, which was really funny because
Speaker 1: I forgot to mention like this the sketch artist was like,
Speaker 1: can you stop bumping my shoulder like while she was
Speaker 1: he was doing the sketch and she was just not
Speaker 1: giving a fuck. A very chaotic energy in the precinct
Speaker 1: and I liked it in.
Speaker 2: A silky turk boy's dress.
Speaker 1: Anyway, Now they're talking to Warner about Randy's body if
Speaker 1: she's giving them the rundown like that.
Speaker 2: Randy was kind of had a lot of STI.
Speaker 1: She had heppie hepsi pid. She was twenty three years old,
Speaker 1: and had she lived, she probably would have been like
Speaker 1: unable to have kids. Like I don't know, so I
Speaker 1: guess she's been through a lot. The cause of death
Speaker 1: is strangulation. She was hung with the belt postmartem, so
Speaker 1: that's not actually what killed her. And it looks like
Speaker 1: the person used their forearm to choke her because there's
Speaker 1: like an impression of a button on her neck so
Speaker 1: like the guy's sleeve. So they meantime get a call
Speaker 1: about another victim because obviously these things happen Boo boo
Speaker 1: boo on the show all the time.
Speaker 2: Same exact sort of scenario.
Speaker 1: When they get to this crime scene, there's a woman,
Speaker 1: a working girl, hanging from a fence.
Speaker 2: Here.
Speaker 1: Warner finds a perfect thumbprint in lipstick around this girl's
Speaker 1: face somewhere. So they tracked down a man named Sean Becker,
Speaker 1: convicted of assault and attempted rape years ago, like in
Speaker 1: ninety four, so years earlier, and he's been out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he got out of jail three weeks ago. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: he's reoffending. Who could have suggested that? Who could have
Speaker 1: thought that would have happened? So this guy's X is
Speaker 1: the one who had him arrested in ninety four, So
Speaker 1: they think, oh, because these two women have both been
Speaker 1: blonde and his ex was blonde, that this suggests that
Speaker 1: he's hurting these women as like a surrogate for his
Speaker 1: ex who got him sent away. So they bring Sean's
Speaker 1: mugshot and wanted posters to Sister Peg and they're like,
Speaker 1: we need to talk to the girls to see if
Speaker 1: they've seen this guy, but she won't give up the names,
Speaker 1: and Benson and Sabler like convinced her eventually because they're like,
Speaker 1: this guy's going to keep killing people. So if he
Speaker 1: kills fifty girls, are you still going to like stand by?
Speaker 1: You're like, you know, keeping them silent. So she kind
Speaker 1: of gives them a breadcrumb. She's like, go to this
Speaker 1: hotel that they used to or what she says is
Speaker 1: she goes, some of my girls used to work out
Speaker 1: of a hotel on thirty seventh and tenth. They don't
Speaker 1: really anymore, but that was like a hotel that was
Speaker 1: used to maybe go there and see if they know
Speaker 1: who this dude is. So they arrive at the Palm Hotel,
Speaker 1: a very classy name for a very seedy joint, and
Speaker 1: the manager tells them that was fast, and they're like,
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? And he's like, I just
Speaker 1: called you guys, I heard a gun go off in
Speaker 1: one of my rooms. So he positively Ida's Sean Becker.
Speaker 1: He's like, that's the guy who's up in the room where.
Speaker 2: The gun went off.
Speaker 1: So when they get there, they open the door and
Speaker 1: there's a woman sort of like scantily clad, holding a
Speaker 1: gun and saying I shot him.
Speaker 2: And this is Sharon Lawrence.
Speaker 1: This actress is Sharon Lawrence, who is very well known
Speaker 1: for NYPD Blue. She's been on Desperate Housewives. I mean
Speaker 1: her IMDb is extensive. She has very prolific but I
Speaker 1: always remember her as a big role on NYPD Blue
Speaker 1: for years and years in the nineties. Anyway, Shawn Becker
Speaker 1: is next to the bed dead, blood etc.
Speaker 2: Yeah done, I'm for vigilante justice. I don't care. You
Speaker 2: heard it here first? Yeah, killing right.
Speaker 1: So at the hospital they're talking to this woman and
Speaker 1: calling her debuta.
Speaker 2: Do you think it would be psychotic or cool. If
Speaker 2: we went to New York and did a tour of
Speaker 2: all the motels that all the sex workers have stayed in,
Speaker 2: and stay at all the at the Palm Hotel, in
Speaker 2: all these places.
Speaker 1: I would go to a tour. I would not stay
Speaker 1: in them. Okay, I go to you.
Speaker 2: You wouldn't want to take some clients and do a
Speaker 2: full on, a full on documentary experience. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So they're talking to Debra about what happened, And.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's funny to me because Sharon Lawrence just like has
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just don't know if I like
Speaker 1: buy her as this like sex worker. But that might
Speaker 1: be my own biases or something. But it's just an
Speaker 1: interesting casting. But she is, she's they're calling her Debor
Speaker 1: and she basically explained, she's like, I asked him to
Speaker 1: settle up, and he hit me and he just kept
Speaker 1: hitting me. He threw me on the bed, he raped me.
Speaker 1: He pulled out a gun.
Speaker 2: We fall. He dropped the gun. I grabbed it. I
Speaker 2: shot him three times. We both reached we were Do
Speaker 2: you know that we both reached for the gun? Oh? Yes,
Speaker 2: so yes, yes, yes, yes, So that's the booth they both. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's what I was trying to get that rhythm. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love Chicago, the city and the musical.
Speaker 2: I think it's the best movie musical of all time.
Speaker 2: I have never seen a better movie musical than Chicago. Interesting.
Speaker 2: I think it's the best one ever made. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: very good. I mean I saw it on No.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think because I'm like, no, Rent, the
Speaker 1: movie really was bad. Hannah, you're a musical person. What
Speaker 1: are the other musicic movie musicals?
Speaker 2: I would say I liked Hairspray.
Speaker 1: Oh I've never saw Oh I do love Hairspray better
Speaker 1: it was Oscar Worthy. Yeah, I never saw Hairspray, but
Speaker 1: that's a good call.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, very very good.
Speaker 1: But I did see it on Broadway with Babe Newarth,
Speaker 1: and that's like one of my most treasured memories because
Speaker 1: she's a legend and nsvu elum.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: So basically, this feels like we know it's not over
Speaker 1: because we know we're watching a television show, but this
Speaker 1: feels like it's over right, Like Stabler's talking a Cabot
Speaker 1: and she's like everything checks out for self defense, pretty
Speaker 1: open and shut. We're not going to press charges against her.
Speaker 1: She was defending herself. And then we are at ballistics
Speaker 1: with Munch and Finn and we find out that there's
Speaker 1: another body on this gun, meaning that another body, another
Speaker 1: person has been killed with this gun. So that poses
Speaker 1: a little bit of a problem because this murder happened
Speaker 1: six months ago and that was when Sean Becker was
Speaker 1: in Attica, so he could not have killed that person.
Speaker 1: Doesn't seem that weird to me that a rapist would
Speaker 1: have gotten out of jail and found a gun on
Speaker 1: the street, and that it might have another body on it,
Speaker 1: But everyone's acting like that's a crazy thing. The previous
Speaker 1: victim was named Leonard Graves. He was a dealer. He
Speaker 1: had three shots to the head and was robbed and
Speaker 1: it was ruled a drug related homicide. And so now
Speaker 1: they're all kind of like wondering if maybe Deborah was
Speaker 1: more involved, maybe it was her gun. Let's find out
Speaker 1: about this previous murder. And they're like, go back and
Speaker 1: talk to Debor. Uh oh, hospital says Debra has fully
Speaker 1: skipped out after talking to the cops, and the Debor
Speaker 1: is not her real name.
Speaker 2: All her info was fake, her social was fake, etc.
Speaker 1: Craigan sends Benson and Stabler to the twenty two to
Speaker 1: investigate what happened with the Leonard Graves murder. The twenty
Speaker 1: second precinct and Munch and Finn go to try to
Speaker 1: track down Debra, who they're calling Mystery Hooker, not my words,
Speaker 1: but kind of a fun name for maybe a movie
Speaker 1: or something. About a month after Leonard died, his credit
Speaker 1: card bill had been run up and signed by missus
Speaker 1: Leonard Graves.
Speaker 2: And the description was only that she was blonde.
Speaker 1: And one of the biggest charges on the credit card
Speaker 1: was to Fao Schwartz storied toy store in the middle
Speaker 1: of New York.
Speaker 2: But why did they close? There was also one in
Speaker 2: Chicago and stuff, and why did they not survive?
Speaker 1: The only reason I can think that they didn't survive
Speaker 1: is because of where they're located. I mean, like it's
Speaker 1: located truly, like right near the Apple Store, right near
Speaker 1: the plaza, Like it just must be a very very
Speaker 1: expensive location to be selling toys.
Speaker 2: I guess. I don't know. It's crazy though, because I
Speaker 2: went there and there.
Speaker 1: Oh, I took Rosie there like two Christmases ago when
Speaker 1: she was a baby, and I got her a little
Speaker 1: key chain that she has on her diaper bag. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's like it's a rite of passage to take a
Speaker 1: kid to Fao Schwartz. I didn't even realize that they'd
Speaker 1: fully shut until you.
Speaker 2: Said that, well did they. Did you ever have an
Speaker 2: Fao Sweets?
Speaker 1: No, we had an Fao Sweet attached to the Fao
Speaker 1: Schwartz and the Old Orchard mall.
Speaker 2: Wow, And it was like just all good candy. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like you know those bins and scoop bat Yeah, scoopy
Speaker 2: scoopy candy. That was hard as an immigrant kid to
Speaker 2: convince your parents because there's also a sweet factory in
Speaker 2: the mall. But like to them, it's like the eighteen
Speaker 2: dollars for a pound. It is insane, but it is
Speaker 2: so fun. I love the school, yeah, to get all
Speaker 2: different kinds.
Speaker 1: You know what I love getting at places like that
Speaker 1: are chocolate covered gummy bears.
Speaker 2: I love chocolateming. We've never talked about this, No, I
Speaker 2: love chocolate covered gummy bears. They're one of my favorite things.
Speaker 1: They're very rare to find, Yeah, but they're almost only
Speaker 1: at scoop places.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I can't believe we didn't know this
Speaker 2: because I learned we both like Junior Men's a few
Speaker 2: months ago. But now this is a whole new level.
Speaker 1: This is I mean, this is what's great is we're
Speaker 1: still finding things to defind out about each other.
Speaker 2: I also love like the little pastel, rainbow colored little
Speaker 2: minty yogurt chip looking things with little white sprinkles on it.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, those I actually always think are going to
Speaker 1: be gross, and then when I eat them, I think
Speaker 1: that they're so good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it. I thought you're about to say
Speaker 2: chocolate covered almonds and I was like, this sucks, and
Speaker 2: then it took such a turn.
Speaker 1: No, I love a chocolate covered gummy bear so good. Okay,
Speaker 1: So the Fao Schwartz thing is is like a Okay,
Speaker 1: that's like a clue for them. And then meanwhile, Munch
Speaker 1: and Finn track a call that was made from the
Speaker 1: hospital during Deborah's stay in the hospital to a daycare,
Speaker 1: and the daycare was like, uh, They're like, oh, we
Speaker 1: got this. We saw this call that came in and
Speaker 1: who was that And they're like, oh, that was Maggie.
Speaker 1: This one has an encyclopedic memory for all calls that
Speaker 1: come in at her daycare and she's.
Speaker 2: Like, well, from the hospital, you'd remember if someone was
Speaker 2: in the hospital. Yeah right, I guess, yeah sure. And
Speaker 2: so even if it was three months ago, if someone
Speaker 2: was like, did someone from the hospital call you, I'd believe.
Speaker 1: Oh, but I didn't know that the hospital was like,
Speaker 1: actually divulge like I thought Maggie just made a phone
Speaker 1: call from the hospital saying, Hi, it's me I'll be
Speaker 1: late picking up my son, not like it's me calling
Speaker 1: from the hospital.
Speaker 2: But you're right, maybe she did say that. Uh, were
Speaker 2: you one of those people that if you went to
Speaker 2: the hospital, you keep your hospital bracelet on for a
Speaker 2: long time to show off.
Speaker 1: I never went to the hospital. Oh but who did that?
Speaker 1: People still do it for adult still. It's a thing
Speaker 1: they want you to ask what happened?
Speaker 2: Oh my god?
Speaker 1: I like even you and I just went to a
Speaker 1: festival and we had to have like we had to
Speaker 1: wear bracelets the entire time for to show that we
Speaker 1: were vaccinated, and I wanted to take it off every night,
Speaker 1: like I don't like to go to sleep with Like.
Speaker 2: I actually did show anything the night after, Like we
Speaker 2: landed and had a show that night, and there were
Speaker 2: multiple people still wearing their bracelets with me. That's fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just like, so, I'm definitely not a person
Speaker 1: that would wear my hospital bracelet. Like the only time
Speaker 1: I've been to the hospital is to have my kids,
Speaker 1: and I was like, snip, snip, but I did keep
Speaker 1: them as keepsakes anyway. So the woman at the daycare
Speaker 1: is like, oh, yeah, Maggie called. She told us she'd
Speaker 1: been mugged and that she wanted to pick up her son,
Speaker 1: joey early, and now they're on a little vacation together.
Speaker 1: She is such a wonderful mother, and like you kind
Speaker 1: of get the sense that this woman's been duped by Maggie.
Speaker 1: So now we're finding out that this woman who we
Speaker 1: thought was Deborah, well she also duped the police. She's
Speaker 1: duping everyone. Yeah, she yes, she's dupin She'd be duping
Speaker 1: all over town.
Speaker 2: And she.
Speaker 1: Maggie Peterson is her full name. So Benson went through viscap, which,
Speaker 1: if you remember, is like the computer system that police
Speaker 1: departments can use to check likem os so like, oh,
Speaker 1: this guy always does this after the murder, Like that's
Speaker 1: how you can sort of link a bunch of different
Speaker 1: crimes together. So she searched homicides in known areas of
Speaker 1: sex work where a credit card had been stolen and
Speaker 1: anything had been stolen, like like anything had been charged
Speaker 1: like hotel rooms or children's items. And she found a
Speaker 1: bunch of homicides that popped up. And so when they're
Speaker 1: they're talking about this lady and they're like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: stabler's like one self defense I can buy, but six
Speaker 1: of them. This lady's a serial killer to Captain Craigan,
Speaker 1: And so now it's like dunt done, Like we got
Speaker 1: to find this lady. When they're looking at all these
Speaker 1: different victims, the cause of deaths is like not always
Speaker 1: the same, like sometimes she's shot, they've been shot, sometimes
Speaker 1: they've been stabbed, Like there's different different uh m o's there.
Speaker 2: So that's a little bit of a red flag.
Speaker 1: But Wong is also not comfortable labeling her a serial
Speaker 1: killer just yet. Munch does a whole monologue about how
Speaker 1: female serial killers don't have a profile because like historically
Speaker 1: they just people think, like female serial killers don't exist,
Speaker 1: and historians believe that many unsolved murders were committed by
Speaker 1: women because people just assumed that women couldn't kill or
Speaker 1: be violent like that. And I'm like, I guess historians
Speaker 1: have never seen the oxygen network.
Speaker 2: Well, no, and women are better at committing crimes. That's
Speaker 2: what it's like. I guess women didn't do it, And
Speaker 2: it's like, no, they're just poisoning you with little flowers
Speaker 2: really every morning and your oatmeal.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Yes, they are meticulous. Yeah, anti freeze having a new uh,
Speaker 2: a distinct taste now really fucked up a lot of
Speaker 2: secret murtering. Really a real fork in the plan.
Speaker 1: Yeah, back when it tastes like gatorade, we had a
Speaker 1: lot of options.
Speaker 2: No, chicks are just good at murder hopefully. I mean
Speaker 2: they get angry like Chicago. You know, Bubba, what is it? Snaps? Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's a row.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So Wong argues that she was raped and so
Speaker 1: she might have rape trauma syndrome, that maybe this guy
Speaker 1: does something that provokes a feeling from a past assault
Speaker 1: and that's what leads her to kill who knows. So
Speaker 1: Elliott and Olivia get called to another crime scene. A
Speaker 1: guy is bloody in his car with his pants undone.
Speaker 1: He's got six stab wounds. His name is Vincent Bertram,
Speaker 1: and they're checking to see if any of his credit
Speaker 1: cards have been used. The cause of death happened two
Speaker 1: to four hours pre release, which means he has not
Speaker 1: he did not get he didn't gizz, he didn't come.
Speaker 2: Sorry, why was that so hard for you? I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know why that was so hard because I
Speaker 1: was trying to say he didn't We're trying to be appropriate. Why, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 2: His balls were filled with giz and he didn't come yet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he didn't come yet, and so he basically died
Speaker 1: of blue balls.
Speaker 2: You guys, So it's real.
Speaker 1: Everything that guys tell you in high school about how
Speaker 1: painful it is, that's what happened to this guy. No,
Speaker 1: And somebody goes, oh, is that significant, and he goes
Speaker 1: ice T.
Speaker 2: He goes, no, that's just cold classic.
Speaker 1: But they do see a charge on one of his
Speaker 1: credit cards for a hotel. They bust into the hotel.
Speaker 1: This seems like very sloppy. We're talking about how women
Speaker 1: do good work. It seems very sloppy to kill a
Speaker 1: guy and check right into a hotel with his credit card.
Speaker 1: But okay, they bust into the hotel. Maggie's there with
Speaker 1: her little son, Joey, who's very upset.
Speaker 2: He's like, mommy, mommy, mommy.
Speaker 1: So in the next scene, they're at the precinct and
Speaker 1: little Joey is sitting on Munch's lap, and I that
Speaker 1: was very touching for me, Like, I think we've all
Speaker 1: seen all of them all be with like tiny babies before,
Speaker 1: but like Munch bouncing a two and a half year old,
Speaker 1: like probably whispering theories about the Kennedy assassination into his
Speaker 1: ear was cute to me. And Wong is like, give
Speaker 1: me a chance to talk to Maggie. Let me examine her.
Speaker 1: So he sits down with her. I love a Wong
Speaker 1: one on one, as we all do a Huang one
Speaker 1: on one, and basically we're finding out her dad was
Speaker 1: a dick. He was always not a nice man. He
Speaker 1: was violent towards her. She's never had voices in her head,
Speaker 1: but she does. When he suggests, have you ever like
Speaker 1: lost time? Have you ever woken up and not know
Speaker 1: how you got somewhere? She's like, Oh, yeah, that happens
Speaker 1: to me all the time. Wow, I can't believe I
Speaker 1: never considered that this happens every time. Basically I go
Speaker 1: home with a John, that happens to me. So she
Speaker 1: starts telling him all that and then she basically relates
Speaker 1: it back to she said my would black out when
Speaker 1: my dad would start hitting me. So on the other
Speaker 1: side of the glass, Wang is done with the interview
Speaker 1: and he's like, she's not psychotic, but she does have PTSD.
Speaker 1: I also think she's lying and she's telling me whatever
Speaker 1: I want to hear, which I love when Wong is
Speaker 1: able to kind of like cut through the bullshit even
Speaker 1: with like people that are good actors, because she seems
Speaker 1: like she's probably a pretty convincing actor to most people,
Speaker 1: but not too Wong. So then they send Stabler in
Speaker 1: a loan so that he can observe her talking to
Speaker 1: someone else, and shit gets wild here. She immediately like
Speaker 1: changes her demeanor, like she if she is voting in
Speaker 1: one of our grid games, she is not voting for Wong.
Speaker 2: She is voting for Stabler. She is so flirty.
Speaker 1: Immediately like starts unbuttoning her cardigan. She's wearing one of
Speaker 1: these cardigan sets that were very hot. I had many
Speaker 1: of them, were very big in the early two thousands.
Speaker 1: I would say hot, because I don't think a cardigan
Speaker 1: set's ever considered super hot. But she's unbuttoning it and
Speaker 1: she's got like a little sort of tank underneath.
Speaker 2: It that matches it. And she sits up on the.
Speaker 1: Table like in front of Stabler, basically telling him he
Speaker 1: has a hot body. But she knows it's only to
Speaker 1: impress other people, so she basically is like straddling Stabler.
Speaker 1: This is very basic instinct. She's talking in a sultry voice.
Speaker 1: It's very she's trying really hard. And then there's a
Speaker 1: knock and Stable just gets up and walks out like
Speaker 1: he's very immune to her sexy ways. And then Wang
Speaker 1: explains that she's got what's called a cocktail personality. I
Speaker 1: think this might be made up for the show, because
Speaker 1: I googled it and it just really wasn't available anywhere.
Speaker 1: Defined as like something that is psychological. If you if
Speaker 1: you are like a psychologist or you're you've studied psychology,
Speaker 1: please let us know if that is a legitimate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you study a cocktail personality, please let us know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because when you look it up, it literally is
Speaker 1: like what cocktail is your personality?
Speaker 2: And it's like gin and tonic.
Speaker 1: I mean, so basically he says that a cocktail personality
Speaker 1: is someone who uh senses other people's vulnerabilities, reads their
Speaker 1: personalities and then performs accordingly. So it's a classic sign
Speaker 1: of a sociopath. So when she was speaking to Huang,
Speaker 1: she was appealing to his vulnerable side, and you know
Speaker 1: that he's this sensitive, sort of more of a care
Speaker 1: ring vibe about him. And then with Stabler, it was like,
Speaker 1: you know, talking about his body and being sexy because
Speaker 1: she assumes, like the way that he looks, that that's
Speaker 1: what he would be into. So Huang suggests that she
Speaker 1: may have put herself with these violent men on purpose,
Speaker 1: thinking that she could control the situations, and that the
Speaker 1: best way to take away her control is to expose
Speaker 1: her lies. So that's when they send in the big guns, Benson.
Speaker 1: So Benson comes in and you can tell Maggie's piss
Speaker 1: She's like, where's Stabler? And Benson's like, it's just us
Speaker 1: girls now, and it's really funny. So she confronts Maggie
Speaker 1: that her mom is still alive and that there's no
Speaker 1: doubt on the birth certificate, so she probably never knew
Speaker 1: her dad, and that whole story about the abusive dad
Speaker 1: is a total lie. And I think Maggie says something
Speaker 1: about like I'd rather die than have anything happen to
Speaker 1: my son, and Olivia's like, well, you're getting your wish
Speaker 1: because the state's going to kill you. So she lunges
Speaker 1: at Benson, who obviously disarms her immediately and has her
Speaker 1: bent over the table within seconds, handcuffing her. This is
Speaker 1: a lot of erotic play for one episode. It's a
Speaker 1: pretty sexual episode. So Cabot has been able to connect
Speaker 1: Maggie through DNA to three other murders.
Speaker 2: And she's talking.
Speaker 1: She's explaining this to Wong and talking about whether she's
Speaker 1: going to go for the death penalty, which would be
Speaker 1: the first time New York State has executed a woman,
Speaker 1: and Cabot feels, based off the evidence that it's a
Speaker 1: death penalty case. Wong doesn't believe in capital punishment. I
Speaker 1: don't believe in capital punishment either, so I'm with Wang
Speaker 1: here on this. Wong doesn't believe that she's legally insane.
Speaker 1: He thinks she knows what she was doing was wrong
Speaker 1: and she didn't care, and that he thinks also that
Speaker 1: she would kill again in a second. So in the
Speaker 1: next scene, Cabot is with Judge Elizabeth Donnelly. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: now she's not a judge, but she becomes a judge. Later,
Speaker 1: it's Jude's light. Judith Light, our favorite. I love her,
Speaker 1: and they're returning from her presentation that she just made
Speaker 1: for the Capital Committee, which I guess is the committee
Speaker 1: of people who decide whether we're going to execute someone.
Speaker 1: So Cabot has decided to go after the death penalty,
Speaker 1: and Judith lyt is like ribbing her, being like it's
Speaker 1: funny because.
Speaker 2: If you get your wish, you're going to be the enemy.
Speaker 1: Of feminism, and Cabot's like, I think this is a
Speaker 1: win for feminism. Maggie deserves a needle in the arm,
Speaker 1: just like any other cold blooded killer, a man, or
Speaker 1: you know, anyone else. And then we hear the soft
Speaker 1: voice saying, so she should just take it like a man.
Speaker 1: Oh shit, Diane Waste is here, da Nora Lewin.
Speaker 2: Hopefully that didn't hurt everyone's ears. But I am a
Speaker 2: huge Diane Waste fan.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's so good in this one little scene, she's
Speaker 1: so like quiet and amazing, Like she's really really good.
Speaker 1: She has been on I associate her so much with
Speaker 1: law and Order, but I think that's just because I
Speaker 1: used to watch a lot of more original recipe back
Speaker 1: in the Day. But she was on forty six episodes
Speaker 1: of Original Law and Order and she's only been on
Speaker 1: two of SVU, So this one and one other one.
Speaker 2: For me, she is practical Magic in the bird Cage.
Speaker 2: That's what I think about when I think of her. Well,
Speaker 2: you've never seen those movies either, No, no, no no.
Speaker 1: I first of all, the Bird Cage. I was trying
Speaker 1: to think who she is. She's married to Gene Hackman, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: she's the mother. And then I just watched Practical Magic
Speaker 1: over Pandemic at our friend Rene's house, and I think
Speaker 1: I would have been better if I had watched Practical
Speaker 1: Magic as a team. Maybe, I mean, yeah, to watch
Speaker 1: it now as an adult, it did not hold up
Speaker 1: for me watching it now as an adult, it was fun.
Speaker 2: It was a fun little romp. Well, because I sometimes
Speaker 2: I feel like my hairdoos look like Stockard Channing in
Speaker 2: that movie. I'm always like, oh, I'm having a Stockard
Speaker 2: witch Day. And I also like when I'm in a
Speaker 2: town like that, I'm like, oh, this is a practical
Speaker 2: magic yeah town like I like Burlington, Vermont to me
Speaker 2: is like, okay, practical magic vibes basically New England. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: but little you know, yeah, little New England. Well, you
Speaker 2: should come to my town where I grew up.
Speaker 1: You'll get some you'll get practical magic yacht club vibes
Speaker 1: from my town.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no no no, do not try
Speaker 2: to put Connecticut into my practical magic fanis.
Speaker 1: I'm telling you there are practical magic towns in Connecticut,
Speaker 1: but maybe not mine.
Speaker 2: I can't believe it didn't hold up for you. You
Speaker 2: didn't like the dance with the margarita and the frogs
Speaker 2: spitting out the thing and the pancakes.
Speaker 1: It was just wild to see these two actresses that
Speaker 1: are just so acclaimed now in this like very very
Speaker 1: like hokey movie about magic.
Speaker 2: It's not hokey, and it's not about magic. It's about
Speaker 2: sisterhood and fulfilling your full potential and not being scared
Speaker 2: to be magical and don't fuck you know, murderers. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: but about it's about connection and family and being who
Speaker 2: you truly are. Okay, so people trying to shut down women.
Speaker 1: The themes did not strike to my heart the way
Speaker 1: that they did for you. Maybe we should rewatch it together.
Speaker 2: You know what our friend's wedding I mentioned practical magic
Speaker 2: in my speech. I forgot that. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I remember you crushing, but I was also extremely incapacitated
Speaker 1: at that point. Already I was pretty fucked up by dinner.
Speaker 1: But anyway, I had to do the marriage ceremony. So
Speaker 1: by the time I got done, I was like, give
Speaker 1: me every drink that exists on this property.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we both had really heavy lifting jobs. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So by the time your speech was happening, I remember
Speaker 1: laughing so hard, but I could not tell you quotes.
Speaker 2: I could not. No, I wouldn't need a quote.
Speaker 1: I'm not that, I'm not insane.
Speaker 2: Okay, we move on. What is dian anyway?
Speaker 1: Anyway, Diane Weese has this like very very like powerful
Speaker 1: conversation with them right about the death and this is
Speaker 1: like three women talking about the death penalty. And it's
Speaker 1: very interesting to me because Nora, that's Diane Wee's name,
Speaker 1: her characters like, I don't like this. You think the
Speaker 1: first female we execute should be a single mom sex
Speaker 1: worker who's also a rape victim. And Cabot argues that
Speaker 1: being a victim of a violent crime does not mitigate
Speaker 1: capital punishment, and neither does being a woman or a mother,
Speaker 1: and if this was a man who was abused as
Speaker 1: a child and then murdered for women, would we even
Speaker 1: be having this discussion? And Nora says, if you were
Speaker 1: seeking the death penalty, of course we would. She just
Speaker 1: has such a calm like but commanding way of speaking,
Speaker 1: and then Donnelly argues, She's like, I don't think we
Speaker 1: would be having that conversation if it was a male offender,
Speaker 1: because that wouldn't offend the female constituents who put you
Speaker 1: in office. And Nourah's ready with the comeback. She's like,
Speaker 1: who we choose to execute is always political. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to kill anyone if there's a possibility they acted
Speaker 1: in self defense. You don't like it, you can always
Speaker 1: run against me.
Speaker 2: Next term. Boom, boom baby shacka laka for sure, boom
Speaker 2: goes the dynamite.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but.
Speaker 2: Maybe it is different. I like, it's it's weird that
Speaker 2: equality is. I don't know, I don't want. I actually
Speaker 2: don't have the brain capacity to talk about the.
Speaker 1: Thing is that almost there's almost never a serial killer
Speaker 1: or a killer, a person responsible for multiple deaths who's
Speaker 1: going to be executed, who has not had a fully
Speaker 1: traumatic childhood and upbringing. I don't think that that's very common,
Speaker 1: and I think we need to consider that with every
Speaker 1: person that is being put to death.
Speaker 2: But that's why I don't believe in the death penalty.
Speaker 1: Like we just executed someone under Trump, this woman who
Speaker 1: had like truly one of the most horrific upbringings and
Speaker 1: lives and she actually her story is based on an
Speaker 1: SVU is based on her story. She did cut a
Speaker 1: baby out of a woman. Murdered a woman and cut
Speaker 1: the baby out. That is a horrific crime. This woman
Speaker 1: was like beyond mentally unstable, like there was her life
Speaker 1: was a string of traumas. I just don't think killing
Speaker 1: people like that is what we're supposed to be doing.
Speaker 2: But my opinion, well that's just our whole society. It's
Speaker 2: like dealing with the symptoms and not with the issue. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because they all make money off capital punishments. I'm sure,
Speaker 2: like there's a reason the forty five administration was rushing
Speaker 2: to murder tons of people the end. It's not just
Speaker 2: because of justice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but doesn't it It costs a lot of money
Speaker 1: to keep people on death row.
Speaker 2: And now what if you invest in the injection, Like
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't have any of these. It
Speaker 2: was just weird how many people they just wanted to
Speaker 2: kill at the end.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and it's it's also been proven that it's
Speaker 1: not a deterrent to crime. So anyway, no, because if
Speaker 1: you're so fucked up, why, like you don't have anything
Speaker 1: to live for. I mean that's the whole thing, where, yeah,
Speaker 1: when you don't have anything to live for, the death
Speaker 1: penalty means nothing exactly. So in court, the defense attorney
Speaker 1: for Maggie is cross examining an er doctor that has
Speaker 1: treated Maggie, and she's just like reading out all of
Speaker 1: her injuries. She's just like she had cheek lacerations and bruising.
Speaker 1: And then the next witness on the stand is Bertram's wife,
Speaker 1: and she testifies how violent her former husband was as well,
Speaker 1: and that one night the cops got there right on
Speaker 1: time because.
Speaker 2: She thinks he would have raped or killed her.
Speaker 1: And so then they have Maggie on the stand and
Speaker 1: she testifies that all the men that she has killed
Speaker 1: would have killed her, so like she was always acting
Speaker 1: in self defense. And Cabot's like, why would you put
Speaker 1: yourself in harm's way when you say you do everything
Speaker 1: you do is for your son, Like why would you
Speaker 1: have done this? And she's like, I assume the risk
Speaker 1: because I take I do everything for my child. And
Speaker 1: it's still like okay, but you could get murdered every
Speaker 1: single day and where who would that leave your child with?
Speaker 1: So at the precinct they're all really panicking, Like Donnelly
Speaker 1: is like, I can't believe you didn't know about the
Speaker 1: wife's testimony because it definitely makes her a more sympathetic
Speaker 1: victim that this man's husband wife also said he beat
Speaker 1: up on her all the time and was a bad
Speaker 1: person that you could easily try to defend your life from.
Speaker 1: So a live is always doing the detail work. She
Speaker 1: figures out from a doctor's report. The doctor's report that
Speaker 1: they were talking about on the stand is from mark
Speaker 1: of two thousand, and that doctor's report says nothing about
Speaker 1: her being pregnant, but her son Joey, judging by how
Speaker 1: old he is, would have been born the next month,
Speaker 1: April of two thousand. So what's up. She wasn't pregnant
Speaker 1: in March of two thousand, and she's got a kid
Speaker 1: in April of two thousand.
Speaker 2: Where did this kid come from?
Speaker 1: Twist baby Eighteen months ago, a twenty six year old
Speaker 1: woman went grocery shopping. Her body was found strangled in
Speaker 1: the store parking lot. Her six month old son was
Speaker 1: never found. Yeah, she just gets what she wants. Yeah,
Speaker 1: no matter what, no one's gonna buy your story now,
Speaker 1: babe about how your son's the best thing you ever
Speaker 1: did and how you do everything for him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a user. Yeah, she's using him. It's like
Speaker 2: her alibi, like her story. Oh my god, totally.
Speaker 1: So she's like where's Joey, where's Joey? And Olivia's like
Speaker 1: back with his father who thought he was dead.
Speaker 2: You monster.
Speaker 1: So like it's really we're getting a lot more beneath
Speaker 1: the surface of Maggie here. They offer her murder two
Speaker 1: on all counts concur sentences, so fifteen to twenty years.
Speaker 1: She'd be out probably in fifteen, especially someone manipulative like her,
Speaker 1: like she'd probably get good time, good behavior or whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but Jale's filled with people like her. Yeah, that's it's tough.
Speaker 1: Cabot's basically like, you're never gonna get a better deal
Speaker 1: than this, especially like if I tack on the kidnapping
Speaker 1: and murder charge to this of this Joey's mom, So
Speaker 1: she says, I didn't kill the mom. I found Joey
Speaker 1: his mom threw him away, and Cabot's like, bitch, the
Speaker 1: jig is up. You need to stop, Like we're not
Speaker 1: buying any of this. Then we're in court and Maggie
Speaker 1: has not shown up, and there's a very hilarious, uh,
Speaker 1: what you don't call them extras? Background he's not a
Speaker 1: background actor. A guy who's like an under five who's
Speaker 1: playing a bailiff is basically a robot. He calls downstairs
Speaker 1: and he's like, we're waiting for Maggie Peterson.
Speaker 2: And they're like, he goes, there's a problem. Anyway.
Speaker 1: If you watch the episode, you notice that this man
Speaker 1: is a full robot. And Benson and Stabler go to
Speaker 1: check out what's going on with Maggie.
Speaker 2: Why has she's not shown up at court?
Speaker 1: And dunt on she has hung herself with her stockings
Speaker 1: in a very much sort of interesting not flashback, but like,
Speaker 1: you know, connection to the two other dead sex workers
Speaker 1: that we saw earlier who were like basically hung up
Speaker 1: after they were killed. She's hanging but in a really
Speaker 1: really weird way, like she didn't get on a table
Speaker 1: and hang from the ceiling. She's like hanging from the
Speaker 1: bars of the cell. So she just so the guy goes.
Speaker 1: She just sat down till she died, like she just
Speaker 1: the self discipline, you have to kill yourself this way
Speaker 1: and not self discipline. But I don't know what I'm
Speaker 1: trying to say, do you know what I mean? Like
Speaker 1: to not you could just stand up and keep breathing,
Speaker 1: and she's just wasn't doing it. She just let herself
Speaker 1: die that way. And she left a note leaving everything
Speaker 1: to Joey, her son. What does she have? She well,
Speaker 1: she has her thousand dollars cards. Well, she had ten
Speaker 1: thousand dollars in a safe deposit box. It's probably all stolen.
Speaker 1: I'm doubt he can even have that money. But then Ben,
Speaker 1: Benson and Stabler kind of just look at her, and
Speaker 1: Benson's like, look at her.
Speaker 2: Her hair and makeup looks perfect.
Speaker 1: She gets to go out like a beauty queen, like
Speaker 1: this is all a performance and like the final shot
Speaker 1: is just like a zoom in on ournechoks very beautiful
Speaker 1: and even in death, she's kind of like, no must
Speaker 1: like her faces, makeup is perfect and everything. And then
Speaker 1: nuts Dick Wolf Baby, thank you so much. The incredible episode.
Speaker 2: Yeah, lots of twists and turns, and we'll be right
Speaker 2: back with a famous, famous crime. So welcome back, all right.
Speaker 2: So this is so famous Eileen Warros and Worros Warns Warnos,
Speaker 2: Eileen Warnos. Both names are hard to spell and say.
Speaker 2: It's like grew up in such a small place. It's like,
Speaker 2: can't she just be Stacey? But I have not seen
Speaker 2: the movie Monster or Boys Don't Cry. I don't know
Speaker 2: those like tough Tough Women oscar Roll movies. Really I
Speaker 2: can't watch them. It's too tough. It's too hard for me.
Speaker 1: I've seen it, but not for a while. So I'm
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to getting the recap.
Speaker 2: On this, and I you know, I was doing a
Speaker 2: lot of research. So I saw Roger Ebert was like
Speaker 2: Charlie's this is the best performance of all time. But
Speaker 2: there's been documentaries. This was a really famous case. So
Speaker 2: I tried to do some research that maybe brought some
Speaker 2: new things to light. It's some information. And you know,
Speaker 2: our first episode we ever did. My friend called me
Speaker 2: out that I was totally on Leona Hemsley's side, and
Speaker 2: it's like everyone could tell, and I do feel like, listen,
Speaker 2: I'm on Eileen's side here. I don't know what to
Speaker 2: tell you. And it is fucked up. And that's why
Speaker 2: in the episode where you're like, well, equality men, women,
Speaker 2: and it's like, yeah, it's it's about valuing each other,
Speaker 2: it's not. We're not all the same. And I do
Speaker 2: feel worse for her than any other criminal we've ever
Speaker 2: talked about. I don't care. I don't know what to
Speaker 2: tell you. I'm you know, I'm not in the court
Speaker 2: of law. I'm not at a bar because a greater I
Speaker 2: just really feel for this bitch and I'm on her side,
Speaker 2: So I don't care. But there's a debate, and there
Speaker 2: we don't really know what is true what is not.
Speaker 2: Is she America's first female serial killer or is she
Speaker 2: just like this feminist hero who had a murder in
Speaker 2: self defense, So we don't know if it's like evil
Speaker 2: genius or she was really, you know, fucked up life
Speaker 2: obviously fucked up life, horrible childhood. Warnos grew up in Troy, Michigan.
Speaker 2: Her mother abandoned her as an infant, and her biological
Speaker 2: father was a wife beater and a pedophile. Her dad
Speaker 2: committed to suicide by hanging while in prison for serving
Speaker 2: time for child molestation. So already not good news. I mean,
Speaker 2: we're three sentences in. It's like this is enough, but
Speaker 2: it's not. There's more. Yeah, there's more. It's like the
Speaker 2: price is right, but the opposite. It's like sad instead
Speaker 2: of woo, like you know, a trip to Italy. So
Speaker 2: she was beaten by her father who she didn't really
Speaker 2: know but was her biological grandfather. He was her father's father.
Speaker 2: I don't know whose father he was, but the grandfather
Speaker 2: was her adoptive father. So I don't know if the
Speaker 2: father this grandfather was fucking or his daughter and pretending
Speaker 2: to be the Eileen's father or grandfather. It's like it's
Speaker 2: too white trash for me to fully grasp. But there's
Speaker 2: just a lot of incest. I don't know. There's just
Speaker 2: like a lot of problems. But yeah, So the person
Speaker 2: who thought, who she thought was just her adoptive father,
Speaker 2: like a stepfather type of character, was really her biological grandfather.
Speaker 2: So that's just that she lived in the woods and
Speaker 2: she would give sexual favors to men, and she had
Speaker 2: to sell sex for food and beer and money. So
Speaker 2: she was actually from age nine, trading blowjobs for cigarettes.
Speaker 2: And when you think about this, it's like, Okay, I mean,
Speaker 2: it's all fucked up. But if it's like a bunch
Speaker 2: of eleven year olds buying blowjobs, it's like, Okay, we're
Speaker 2: all fucked up kids. But I am assuming these are
Speaker 2: men from the neighborhood getting serviced by a nine year old. Yes,
Speaker 2: what the fuck? A whole town of these people, Yeah,
Speaker 2: And that is why it's so annoying when women aren't believed,
Speaker 2: or people aren't believed, or people don't under It's like
Speaker 2: a whole town was fucking getting blowjobs from a nine
Speaker 2: year old. Yeah, Oh that's so awful. So basically you go,
Speaker 2: I mean, this is a famous case. She eventually did
Speaker 2: get the death penalty, and then her defense attorneys brought
Speaker 2: up all of these people from her past to like
Speaker 2: show what a terrible life she had and that was
Speaker 2: self defense and stuff like that. So a bunch of
Speaker 2: men took the stand and we're talking about all the
Speaker 2: awful things that they'd done to her, and one man
Speaker 2: said that he would fuck her, but then in public
Speaker 2: would ignore her, call her awful names, throw rocks at her,
Speaker 2: tell her to go home because he didn't want to
Speaker 2: be seen or associated with her. But in private they
Speaker 2: would fuck and he was a young kid. I mean
Speaker 2: he looked guilty, like these people that took the stand
Speaker 2: look guilty. Her friends took the stand, like all of
Speaker 2: these people, and she was like, fuck this, they're all lying.
Speaker 2: None of this happened. Go, I hate all of you,
Speaker 2: but it is just like a whole town. And one
Speaker 2: of the women was like every single person in this
Speaker 2: town knew what was happening. No one fucking helped her,
Speaker 2: no one cares, and now everyone's like, oh no, I
Speaker 2: used to bring her food. Oh I remember I was
Speaker 2: nice to her, And it's like no one was fucking
Speaker 2: nice to her, right, So it's like this whole town
Speaker 2: loved ragging on this abused child and then now are
Speaker 2: all like, oh and maybe we did something wrong. Yeah, OK,
Speaker 2: a piece of shit. Yeah. Like one of the friends
Speaker 2: that took the stand, she said that this grandfather dad situation,
Speaker 2: he bent her. Oh they got home and he bent
Speaker 2: her over her a chair and beat her for five
Speaker 2: minutes straight with a leather belt, and like while her
Speaker 2: friend just watched, like it was a really horrific life.
Speaker 2: She was pregnant and thirteen and was forced to give
Speaker 2: up her child for adoption. She was raped several times constantly,
Speaker 2: but also like every time she committed any sort of
Speaker 2: like sex work as a child as a rape. You know,
Speaker 2: it's like, yes, constant rape. She was living in forts,
Speaker 2: she had frostbite, and then at fifteen sixteen, she just
Speaker 2: hit the road and sold sex along the way. She
Speaker 2: lived in motels and rented rooms and lived on the streets.
Speaker 2: And this is what we're talking about, Like she didn't
Speaker 2: look for the future. Like for her, she just had
Speaker 2: enough money for a couple days. She was rolling in
Speaker 2: the dough. And so we're talking about a person who
Speaker 2: only is thinking two three days in advance. And that's
Speaker 2: what happens to a lot of like I remember, I
Speaker 2: forgot who was speaking, but it happens to a lot
Speaker 2: of like teens and stuff in the hood where like
Speaker 2: they don't see their lives past twenty because no one
Speaker 2: else around it. They just see so much death. So
Speaker 2: it's like to then encourage these people, like go to school,
Speaker 2: you have a future. There's things happening. It's like they
Speaker 2: don't have that perspective. They can only think about survival,
Speaker 2: she became a Florida drifter. So this is in Florida.
Speaker 2: Now she learned her living as a sex worker along
Speaker 2: the highway, and so the murder of the crimes, this
Speaker 2: kind of tale starts in the winter of nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: nine slash like nineteen ninety ish. But I just want
Speaker 2: to reiterate again, like no one ever helped her, Like
Speaker 2: while she was getting beaten, no social worker, no teacher,
Speaker 2: no neighbor, no police officer, no one helped her. She
Speaker 2: slept in the snow, no one helped her. She was
Speaker 2: getting cigarettes and drinking and smoking, and like you know,
Speaker 2: teen sex worker, no one ever cared. No options the school,
Speaker 2: Like she stopped going to school. No one from the
Speaker 2: school reached out to anyone to be like, why is
Speaker 2: this child not at school? Like truly, no one fucking
Speaker 2: cared about her. It's really fucked. She was married divorced
Speaker 2: within months. She beat her wealthy husband and he took
Speaker 2: out a restraining order against her. She was arrested a
Speaker 2: ton for petty bullshit. So she was arrested for like
Speaker 2: do uys shooting guns into the air while driving drunk.
Speaker 2: That's fun. That sounds kind of fun. Yeah, hitting a bartender, speeding,
Speaker 2: resisting arrests, assaulting men, phony checks, holding up a convenience store.
Speaker 2: And she hit a lot of her boyfriends. So that
Speaker 2: is her life. She got written up a lot in
Speaker 2: jail too, so she would start fights in like a
Speaker 2: lot of uncooperative behavior. So basically like that, you know,
Speaker 2: a life of petty crime. And then a bunch of
Speaker 2: adult white men started disappearing one by one, and it
Speaker 2: got a lot of attention. And obviously, and this has
Speaker 2: been in the news recently, but like if this was
Speaker 2: a bunch of women of color disappearing or a bunch
Speaker 2: of sex workers, no one would really care, you know,
Speaker 2: if male john's were killing a bunch of female sex workers,
Speaker 2: no one would care, or transsex workers or whatever. So
Speaker 2: in late nineteen eighty nine, she killed one of the
Speaker 2: men who picked her up and then killed seven more guys.
Speaker 2: So the first victim was Richard Charles Mallory and that
Speaker 2: happened November thirtieth, nineteen eighty nine, and he was shot
Speaker 2: several times, and the two bullets in his left lung
Speaker 2: are what caused the death. And I'm just gonna say thevictims'
Speaker 2: names to be respectful. So I'm just going to go
Speaker 2: through that because you know, I'm on her side. So
Speaker 2: it's like tough, but we will be respectful to these men.
Speaker 2: And so this is so fucked up of me, okay.
Speaker 2: So then David Andrews Spears was the second victim, and
Speaker 2: he was declared missing me nineteenth, nineteen ninety and was
Speaker 2: found on June first. He was shot six times. Charles
Speaker 2: Edmund Carskadon was a part time rodeo worker, which is
Speaker 2: pretty fun, and he was shot nine times. Peter Abraham
Speaker 2: Seems was sixty five and his body was never found,
Speaker 2: but her prints were found inside of his car. But
Speaker 2: for me, it's like no body, no crime. Sorry, I
Speaker 2: mean right, that's okay. C Anthony got away with it.
Speaker 2: If you can't, what do you mean, no body, no crime,
Speaker 2: That's that's why you get rid of the body. Troy
Speaker 2: Eu Jean Burres aged fifty. He was reported missing July
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety and then his body was found August fourth,
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety and he was shot twice. Charles Richard aka
Speaker 2: Dick humphreyes fifty six. His body was found on September twelfth,
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety. Fully clothed and he was shot six times.
Speaker 2: And finally, her last victim was Walter Gino Antonio and
Speaker 2: his body was found November nineteenth, nineteen ninety naked and
Speaker 2: near a remote logging road and he was shot four times.
Speaker 2: So a psychologist who spent a lot of time with
Speaker 2: her is Phyllis Chessler, and she wrote a groundbreaking book
Speaker 2: called Women in Madness in nineteen seventy two about how
Speaker 2: the mental health system treats women and calls them crazy
Speaker 2: when they just didn't want to do housework or like
Speaker 2: if they were lesbians. And then going back about this,
Speaker 2: first the first victim though, like you know, because that's
Speaker 2: the whole thing, was a self defense? Is she a killer?
Speaker 2: But her first victim this Richard Mallory guy. He had
Speaker 2: done time in an institution for attempted rape in the
Speaker 2: past and he was a violent person, so it But
Speaker 2: then she changes her mind a lot too. She initially
Speaker 2: said that the killings were in self defense after they
Speaker 2: assaulted her, after they picked her up, but later she
Speaker 2: said that was a lie and she was intending to
Speaker 2: rob and kill these men. And people don't know if
Speaker 2: she did that because she was just over and wanted
Speaker 2: to get executed or she no one actually knows, and
Speaker 2: there's hours of foot I mean.
Speaker 1: I'm sure it was like an amazing like sense of
Speaker 1: control after being abused by men for decades to be
Speaker 1: able to just you know, have the upper hand.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's probably like the what Bad Wong mentioned in
Speaker 2: the episode about like the you know, you've been raped
Speaker 2: so much that any sort of thing can trigger a
Speaker 2: trauma response. But yeah, all right, So and at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, she was really frustrated and pissed
Speaker 2: how much violence came from her job, both from the
Speaker 2: Johns and law enforcement. And that's the thing. It's like,
Speaker 2: you know, the patriarch, You're like, hetero culture wants to
Speaker 2: sexualize women, but as soon as women are sexual beings
Speaker 2: or sexual then they also get beat and it's like
Speaker 2: what do you all want? You know what I mean,
Speaker 2: it's so fucked up. And then like to also get
Speaker 2: violence from these people using your services and the people
Speaker 2: that are supposed to help you or I don't know,
Speaker 2: it's just not a friend in sight, not a friend
Speaker 2: in sight for AILI. It's so upsetting. Yeah, So she
Speaker 2: was arrested at the last resort bar in Port Orange,
Speaker 2: Florida and January nineteen ninety one on an outstanding charge
Speaker 2: of carrying a concealed weapon and that led to a
Speaker 2: charge of murder. I thought it was just Tyro.
Speaker 1: Why did it switch it to Tyria.
Speaker 2: I think her name was just Tyra. So Tyra Moore,
Speaker 2: who was her lover, who was like Christina Ricci in
Speaker 2: the movie, spoke to her by phone in front of
Speaker 2: police and elicited a confession to the murders. So even
Speaker 2: yes sold her out and sold her out on the stand,
Speaker 2: like testify to fucking against her. So her one love
Speaker 2: in her life fucking sold her out. She was tricked
Speaker 2: into confessing by her lover without a lawyer present. And
Speaker 2: you know, we watch SVU, we know it is wrong. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And she did say that the killings were self defense
Speaker 2: sixteen times during the questioning and everything, and the jury
Speaker 2: never was told this. Someone edited out that from the
Speaker 2: video that was shown to the jury. What so they
Speaker 2: showed like her confessing all this shit, but took out
Speaker 2: the parts where she said sixteen times that it was
Speaker 2: self defense. The first victims violent past wasn't brought up
Speaker 2: at trial. I mean the trial was fucked too. We'll
Speaker 2: going to like, it's truly not a friend insight for
Speaker 2: this person, because even the people that worked with are
Speaker 2: in psychologists, and like the journalists who came to talk
Speaker 2: to her and help her, and like anyone, they all
Speaker 2: wanted something from her. Everyone sold the story, everyone tried
Speaker 2: to get movie deals, everyone, everyone was using her. No, truly,
Speaker 2: not one person in her corner. This is fuck. So
Speaker 2: the prosecutor is this guy named John Tanner, and he
Speaker 2: is this like born again Christian guy. He visited Ted
Speaker 2: Bundy fifty times to pray with him and pray and
Speaker 2: like you know, do all this stuff with him. And
Speaker 2: it's so strange because he was fighting to have Eileen killed.
Speaker 1: He was fighting, that's that strange. Yeah, because he hated
Speaker 1: sex workers. I think that fucking tracks perfectly with these
Speaker 1: kind of people. These are the same people that don't
Speaker 1: think women should have abortions because they want to fight
Speaker 1: for a baby that's not been born, but they don't
Speaker 1: want to help women with their health care in any
Speaker 1: other way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's like, what's the difference between Ted and Eileen,
Speaker 2: And it's he hated sex workers, So it's this Christian thing,
Speaker 2: but like fifty times he visited Ted Bundy, who had
Speaker 2: so many more victims, and he was like the number
Speaker 2: one person who wanted Eileen fucking executed. Tons of right
Speaker 2: wing Christians were fighting to have her executed. Beyond me, Yeah,
Speaker 2: beyond me. I mean that's like Hugh Religion. Right wing
Speaker 2: Christians fighting to have her executed. In a documentary from
Speaker 2: two thousand and three, there's a footage of her and
Speaker 2: orange jumpsuit and she's giving an interview and she's like,
Speaker 2: this is all ladder jumping during the election season and
Speaker 2: everyone is just trying to get attention for their campaigns,
Speaker 2: and she's not wrong, and that's that end this. The
Speaker 2: prosecutor was also a longtime friend and colleague of the
Speaker 2: presiding judge. Again, I'm not trying to defend a murderer,
Speaker 2: but I don't think she should have been sentenced to death.
Speaker 2: I don't, I really don't. I do not believe that
Speaker 2: for a second. And you know, I'm going to keep
Speaker 2: up with this Bundy comparison just to like prove how
Speaker 2: unfair a lot of this stuff was. But like his
Speaker 2: legal team asked to change locations of the trial because
Speaker 2: of all the publicity, and that was granted and she
Speaker 2: asked for the same thing. It was not granted. The
Speaker 2: trial was over in five days. The jury voted guilty
Speaker 2: in an hour and a half and they recommended the
Speaker 2: death sentence in an hour and forty eight minutes. For Bundy,
Speaker 2: it was seven and a half hours to decide death.
Speaker 2: But he was also offered a sentence of life with
Speaker 2: no parole. Warnos was not. She wasn't even offered a
Speaker 2: life sentence. Yeah. So, between nineteen seventy six and twenty sixteen,
Speaker 2: sixteen American women were executed, and most often for killing
Speaker 2: one or two people, whereas during the same time, seventeen
Speaker 2: American male killers who killed between fourteen and one hundred
Speaker 2: women were given less severe sentences and only five of
Speaker 2: them were executed.
Speaker 1: WHOA, that's those statistics are fucked.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we hate women. Women can't do anything. It's like,
Speaker 2: and that's the Diane we sa of it all. In
Speaker 2: all of this, it's like, what are we fighting for
Speaker 2: with feminism when it's like we want more killers, but
Speaker 2: it's like no, But even when there are these crimes,
Speaker 2: it's like it's I it's not even fair. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: life in prison was just never offered to her and
Speaker 2: everyone like I mentioned, involved in the case was trying
Speaker 2: to sell the story and make money of her life.
Speaker 2: She was surrounded by a terrible scum. So she also
Speaker 2: had a lawyer named Steve who lived in a teepee
Speaker 2: who took money from interviews he had set up for her,
Speaker 2: so he was like taking a cut and acting like
Speaker 2: an agent to like make money off people being interviewed.
Speaker 2: And he's the one who pled guilty for her and
Speaker 2: the lawyer who took her at her word when she
Speaker 2: said she wanted to die. He visited her in jail
Speaker 2: after smoking seven joints. So there was like this documentary
Speaker 2: that followed all this stuff. It is really wild because
Speaker 2: it's like wait, what but this is all on camera.
Speaker 2: This guy was just like high as hell heading over
Speaker 2: to court to be like, yeah, she wanted to be
Speaker 2: put to death, Like it's oh my god, it's very strange.
Speaker 2: The doc that came out at the time is called
Speaker 2: Selling of a Serial Killer, and it showed footage of
Speaker 2: this hippie lawyer getting high and just fucking her life up.
Speaker 2: No mistrials, no nothing. So the police involved had to
Speaker 2: give a press conference and apologize for trying to give
Speaker 2: information to make Hollywood movies, like the police were taping
Speaker 2: conversations and the point is, so they got in trouble
Speaker 2: for like trying to sell information and fucking with the case.
Speaker 2: So maybe like one of her death sentences can be
Speaker 2: overturned or a mistrial or something since the cops are
Speaker 2: recording conversations and selling them. Nope, nothing, not one thing
Speaker 2: got overturned. Everything was swept under the rug and got
Speaker 2: covered up. God, there was a lot of tabloid buzz
Speaker 2: obviously an attention, and people were rude and called her
Speaker 2: a man hating, lesbian killer. But men kill women all
Speaker 2: the time, and why don't we ever call them women haters?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Why does it? I don't understand if you're a feminist
Speaker 2: in any capacity. It's like man hater, man hater. Why
Speaker 2: don't we ever get to call like why is that
Speaker 2: not in the zeitgeist? So like women hater? Why is
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy not a woman hater?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just ye know, it's I never thought about that,
Speaker 1: But that's a great question.
Speaker 2: Because I had a try, I had an ish. I
Speaker 2: ran into an issue at a comedy club that I
Speaker 2: frequent where she was like you, the booker said, my
Speaker 2: man hating material needed to stop. And my man hating
Speaker 2: material was that men should make women come more so evil.
Speaker 2: And you know, looking around, it's like there was a
Speaker 2: dude who was doing jokes about how countries that beat
Speaker 2: women have better tasting food. I'm not saying if the
Speaker 2: joke was funny or not. I don't think this person
Speaker 2: is a woman beater, But how is that not a
Speaker 2: woman hating joke?
Speaker 1: Right right, Like it's just not that's just not part
Speaker 1: of the lexicon to be a mamin hater.
Speaker 2: Man hating is a thing that men have created. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and we talk about this a lot with the Violence
Speaker 2: Against Women Act, where it's like, why isn't men committing violence?
Speaker 2: It's like always violence, it's always passive. It's like who's
Speaker 2: committing all these crimes against women? But from now it's
Speaker 2: like we all have to make it our mission that
Speaker 2: anytime there's an Abel Castro or any of these fucking
Speaker 2: lunatics that attack what, they're women haters. Yeah, we just
Speaker 2: are like, oh, they're mentally dizzy. Oh these school shooter
Speaker 2: ome poor them. And it's like, yeah, no, that guy
Speaker 2: in Atlanta was a woman hater. Yes, you know it's so,
Speaker 2: but yeah, people were just like, Oh, this fucking lesbian
Speaker 2: kill her. Right. Also, male serial killers are often very
Speaker 2: glorified and movies are made about them and they have fans,
Speaker 2: And for her, it was just like you're a monster
Speaker 2: and a bad person. It's like they're just putting us
Speaker 2: in such a weird place where we're fighting for the
Speaker 2: rights of a cold blooded killer. Maybe, but I don't think.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't think that there are just
Speaker 2: different standards for women and men, and men are expected
Speaker 2: to be violent, and we as a culture minimize and
Speaker 2: deny male violence, like he's under a lot of pressure,
Speaker 2: he's in therapy, he's working on himself. Oh, he wouldn't
Speaker 2: do that. But we also blame women for male violence,
Speaker 2: where it's like, why did she stay? She likes it rough,
Speaker 2: she provoked him, what you know, because I remember a
Speaker 2: lot of people still to this day it's like, well,
Speaker 2: what did Rihanna do? What did Rihanna do? Yeah, And
Speaker 2: obviously there is a debate about whether it was self
Speaker 2: defense or was she an aggressive killer, But it shows
Speaker 2: that women's self defense is consistently confused for female aggression,
Speaker 2: and it reflects in the sentencing. According to the nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety Florida State Supreme Gender Bias Report the year war
Speaker 2: nots was you know killing women in Florida were treated
Speaker 2: more harshly than similarly crimed male offenders.
Speaker 1: Well, it's kind of like we talked about this in
Speaker 1: the Nicks Mary Brown case where her husband was the
Speaker 1: one who murdered this little girl, but she got a
Speaker 1: longer sentence because there's a thing about what you're a mother,
Speaker 1: you're a woman.
Speaker 2: Like why didn't you protect your child?
Speaker 1: Or like women are supposed to be good people or something,
Speaker 1: And I mean, he just reminds me. I know, she
Speaker 1: wasn't a mom, Eileen Morenos, But like, you know, there's
Speaker 1: just for some reason women get punished because it's like
Speaker 1: you're supposed to be good, so you doing.
Speaker 2: This bad thing. Men are expected to do shitty stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it's not just in the criminal world. I mean
Speaker 2: I think for parenting and stuff too. As a mom,
Speaker 2: you could truly do everything and it's never enough. And
Speaker 2: a guy, if you just hold the baby at a party,
Speaker 2: people are like, oh my god, the shother of the year.
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's not fair, okay. Men and Jaya
Speaker 2: and prison have greater access to libraries, educational and rehab programs, gyms,
Speaker 2: and are more conveniently located like closer for family visits.
Speaker 2: So when she did appear in courtant she I mean,
Speaker 2: she's a badass bitch, So she didn't hesitate to tell
Speaker 2: the judge injury exactly what she thought of them. She
Speaker 2: score a lot. I mean, she was a rude person,
Speaker 2: you know, like she wasn't soft and cuddly, okay, and
Speaker 2: why would she be? What is the world taught her?
Speaker 2: Anyone that you trust is going to fucking beat you,
Speaker 2: take advantage of you, rape you. The University of Rhode
Speaker 2: Island had an academic thing I called, I don't know,
Speaker 2: a journal whatever, and it was called Dignity, a Journal
Speaker 2: of Analysis of Exploitation and Violence. And it's by Phyllis Chessler,
Speaker 2: who's a professor of psychology at Coney And I mentioned
Speaker 2: her above. She has a book. She's had decades of experience,
Speaker 2: and she worked very closely with her like I'll talk
Speaker 2: about it, but she spent a lot of time with Eileen,
Speaker 2: and so in the journal, I got a lot of information.
Speaker 2: And so there are so many male criminals and they
Speaker 2: often get plea bargained since there's overcrowding in jails. But
Speaker 2: since there are less female criminals, there's no need to
Speaker 2: save space or because of fear of overcrowding or anything,
Speaker 2: so there's less motivation to plea bargain with women. So
Speaker 2: women end up serving longer sentences and worse facilities. Wow,
Speaker 2: I never thought about that. I didn't either. That's why
Speaker 2: you got to get these academic journals out. I mean
Speaker 2: I truly felt like I was, you know, in college. Again, well,
Speaker 2: I went to a Christian college, so I didn't actually
Speaker 2: have to do work. You could just be like, listen,
Speaker 2: Noah said this, and that's that. Okay, But yeah, I
Speaker 2: never thought about her too. Everything is selfish, so like
Speaker 2: there's no need to plea bargain anything. There's like space
Speaker 2: for all the women criminals, and that's why men get
Speaker 2: like deals. The same psychologist Chessler, She drove down there
Speaker 2: a lot. No one would call her back. She was
Speaker 2: this feminist, She was a journalist, and she could have
Speaker 2: been a potential witness. She tried to be an organizer.
Speaker 2: She believes the trauma and violence she dealt with affected
Speaker 2: her in these crimes and not excused but explained. But
Speaker 2: she was met with resistance in always like no one
Speaker 2: let her help. She spent a lot of time with Eileen,
Speaker 2: got a lot of scoop from her, but she legit
Speaker 2: got together a pro bono team of experts to testify
Speaker 2: about violence against prostitutes and the rights to defend herself
Speaker 2: and address the complex post traumatic stress from being a
Speaker 2: sex worker. None of them were called.
Speaker 1: So her legal team wouldn't call any of these people
Speaker 1: even though.
Speaker 2: No, So this woman put together this pro bono like
Speaker 2: set of experts that were never called to trial at all.
Speaker 2: And also Eileen refused an insanity defense. I don't know
Speaker 2: if that would have helped her or not. And like
Speaker 2: I said earlier, just to reiterate how alone this woman was.
Speaker 2: Her lesbian lover testified against her. Yeah, Eileen kind of
Speaker 2: broke down and cried in court as they played the
Speaker 2: tapes of her getting a confession out on tape. So
Speaker 2: they were like playing Tyra's shit, and like you can see,
Speaker 2: Eileen started crying so sad. But Tyra was bad news
Speaker 2: and knew all about all the murders and was never
Speaker 2: charged for anything and was a state's witness and was
Speaker 2: part of the movie deal package money so Eileen was
Speaker 2: sentenced to death and just kept getting more death sentences
Speaker 2: attached to her, and just watching the judge sentence someone
Speaker 2: to death was hard to watch. Yeah, it's sick, it's sick,
Speaker 2: and as it's really disgusting. I saw one video where
Speaker 2: after she was sentenced again with this like Steve lawyer
Speaker 2: guy who didn't know what he was doing. She started
Speaker 2: saying how she will be in heaven while they all
Speaker 2: rotten hell. And she looks at what I think is
Speaker 2: the prosecution and says, I hope your daughter and wife
Speaker 2: get raped in the ass. I was raped, and you
Speaker 2: are nothing but a bunch of scum putting someone that
Speaker 2: was raped to death. You motherfuckers. She spoke her mind. Yeah,
Speaker 2: she finally dropped all her a PA and fired her lawyers.
Speaker 2: The psychiatrists concluded that she was competent to choose execution.
Speaker 2: She met up and did another interview with a documentary
Speaker 2: for the same guy that did the Selling of a
Speaker 2: serial Killer documentary in two thousand and three. He made
Speaker 2: another one in two thousand and three called Life and
Speaker 2: Death of a serial Killer. And they see each other
Speaker 2: in Core and she says she wants to talk to
Speaker 2: him so she says, the chances to overtune death penalty
Speaker 2: are like super small and mostly the ones that get
Speaker 2: changed have DNA, so you know, she's like, I'm going
Speaker 2: to die. I don't want to die a liar. She
Speaker 2: confesses that it was not self defense that she killed
Speaker 2: them in cold blood, but not for the thrill like
Speaker 2: most serial killers, but for survival and robbing them and
Speaker 2: eliminating a witness. Wow. She said, sorry about it, but
Speaker 2: the world is evil. We are all evil, and my
Speaker 2: evil came out because of substances of what I was doing,
Speaker 2: being homeless, hooking and hitchhiking. She also said she still
Speaker 2: missed Tyra and loved her. Yeah, and she said that
Speaker 2: she's sorry for all the other people that lost their life,
Speaker 2: love ones and she's sorry. She said all the self
Speaker 2: defense stuff wasn't true. But like I said, is that
Speaker 2: so she could just be executed and die or is
Speaker 2: that really the truth? She was executed in October two
Speaker 2: thousand and two by lethal injection. Warnos was forty sixth
Speaker 2: and it was the tenth woman executed in the US.
Speaker 2: Her final statement was I'll be back like Independence Day
Speaker 2: with Jesus June sixth, just like the movie Big mother
Speaker 2: Ship and I'll be back. Wow. She asked to be
Speaker 2: cremated with her Bible and for Natalie Merchant's song Carnival
Speaker 2: be played at her wake. And weirdly, the bar she
Speaker 2: got arrested in, the last resort bar that was where
Speaker 2: her last night of freedom was, they have like a
Speaker 2: large painting with her and like it has all the
Speaker 2: names of the men she killed in a framed photo
Speaker 2: of her, and it's kind of like, wow, a true
Speaker 2: crime destination of sorts. Wow wow wow. Yeah, it's so
Speaker 2: fucked up the story it is. And maybe I'll watch
Speaker 2: the movie, but like these it's just too sad, and
Speaker 2: I don't think any I don't know. Maybe the guys
Speaker 2: are fine. I bet they were bad people, yeah, And
Speaker 2: I think I wish that all the people in her
Speaker 2: town can go to jail. I wish all those people
Speaker 2: that took the stand and admitted to getting blowjobs from
Speaker 2: her when she was nine years old, like death to
Speaker 2: them all. And this happens constantly, and for some reason,
Speaker 2: we have like empathy for men that go through abuse
Speaker 2: and not women that are just constantly fucking raped for decades.
Speaker 2: It's really so, it's really fucked.
Speaker 1: I mean, no one is suggesting that she'd be like
Speaker 1: let out to live her life freely, but she could
Speaker 1: have been, you know, she could have maybe you know,
Speaker 1: had some kind of rehabilitation in jail and been able to.
Speaker 2: Just been in jail fine, because she also she hated
Speaker 2: being in isolation. I mean, it's like if she could
Speaker 2: be in mass pop first, like death Row, it's like
Speaker 2: more intense. She could have found like a lover and
Speaker 2: a friend in jail and been living I don't know, yeah,
Speaker 2: but well it's upsetting.
Speaker 1: We do, as usual, have a great palate cleanser of
Speaker 1: a guest for you, so don't go anywhere.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 1: Today's guest is an icon Honestly, she has been nominated
Speaker 1: for four Primetime Emmys. She's been on Broadway as Sally
Speaker 1: Bowles and Velmakelly iconic roles on TV, You've seen her
Speaker 1: on Grey's Anatomy, Shameless, Desperate Housewives, I'm Becoming a God
Speaker 1: in Central Florida, and most famously, she played Sylvia Costas
Speaker 1: Sipowitz on NYPD Blue. But today you know her as
Speaker 1: the cocktail personality baby Maggie Peterson. Guys, get into our
Speaker 1: talk with Sharon Lawrence.
Speaker 2: So this is an iconic episode, one of our favorites.
Speaker 2: When you got the script, you read about it and
Speaker 2: the character, were you very jazzed excited? How did you sure?
Speaker 4: At that point I was playing mostly good women, so
Speaker 4: it was fun that sense changed. I find more bad
Speaker 4: women than good women now, and I don't know whether
Speaker 4: that's because of SVU and the success of that character,
Speaker 4: or just the way things happen as you evolve in
Speaker 4: the canon of women in television, but at that point
Speaker 4: it was it was a nice stretch for me. And
Speaker 4: when I read the script, it was a mystery to
Speaker 4: me how anyone could actually that kind of character, could
Speaker 4: be based on something that's real.
Speaker 2: But at the time.
Speaker 4: I was let's see, when was this filmed?
Speaker 2: Two thousand and two?
Speaker 4: I think, yeah, yeah, right, okay, So I was already
Speaker 4: married to my husband, who's a psychiatry trust and he
Speaker 4: let me know that this chameleon, the cocktail personality, I
Speaker 4: should say, the episode is called chameleon, but as some
Speaker 4: bad Walk's character talks about, it's a cocktail personality. They
Speaker 4: change in accordance to what they recognize will give them
Speaker 4: an advantage with whoever it is or talking to so
Speaker 4: you know, to me that that just sounds like somebody.
Speaker 1: In Hollywood, But.
Speaker 2: It's so true.
Speaker 4: It's a real psychiatric phenomenon. It's not a diagnosis, but
Speaker 4: it is a phenomenon.
Speaker 1: That's so, that's so interesting. Your husband must have helped
Speaker 1: you a little bit. Did he help you a little bit,
Speaker 1: like get like telling you about that whole.
Speaker 4: Well, he just he just made it legit for me.
Speaker 4: And that's that's what I needed, the medium and all
Speaker 4: I needed was for him to say that's real and
Speaker 4: I could buy in and do the work to make
Speaker 4: it happen in a real way for me first and
Speaker 4: hopefully for the audience on stage and for the lens
Speaker 4: on a camera.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wow, you have like your own in house doctor Wong.
Speaker 1: That's so exciting.
Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, I do.
Speaker 1: Can we ask you we were obviously researching you before
Speaker 1: we got on this call with you. And there's an
Speaker 1: uncited piece of information on your Wikipedia that says that
Speaker 1: you got married to your husband in the same church
Speaker 1: that your NYPD Blue character got married to Dennis Franz.
Speaker 2: Is that true? Because it says citation needed.
Speaker 4: Well, let me get on there and cite that right now,
Speaker 4: because Ding ding Ding. It's true.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 4: When I met my husband, he's Greek. The church that
Speaker 4: I belonged to beck in my home day in North
Speaker 4: Carolina was no longer my church. When he said, would
Speaker 4: you be opposed to getting married in the Greek church?
Speaker 4: I said, well, honey, I've already done that and I
Speaker 4: just like it what I met by, and of course
Speaker 4: it was. It was an easy yes for me because
Speaker 4: I knew how beautiful this place was. So what my
Speaker 4: concern was with would it feel like I had done
Speaker 4: it before? But we did have the same priest. The
Speaker 4: priest who married who appeared in the background of NYPD
Speaker 4: Blue was the same priest. He's a real priest, father
Speaker 4: John Beckis, and he's who married Tom And oh that
Speaker 4: is so funny.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Okay, well we're going to get on Wikipedia and clear
Speaker 1: that right now because it is all true.
Speaker 2: That's amazing. I do have some more NYPD Blue. Do
Speaker 2: you keep in touch with Garcel? We're big Real Housewives people.
Speaker 2: Have you been watching Real Housewives? Any information that you
Speaker 2: can give me us? I don't.
Speaker 4: I don't watch a lot of reality TV. Not really
Speaker 4: my thing on I Garcel and I have seen each
Speaker 4: other at events, and I love her. She's a great gal.
Speaker 4: She's so charming, and you know, she she was a
Speaker 4: you know, a bright light on the show. We didn't
Speaker 4: ever really cross pads, but I certainly watched her on it,
Speaker 4: and she's got a great vibe, just a great energy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, she does on the show. We love her.
Speaker 1: We really have to bring up that you played Velma
Speaker 1: Kelly in Broadway, which is like one of our favorite
Speaker 1: of all time musicals, and that's wow, like and I
Speaker 1: want to know what that was like. But I also
Speaker 1: want to know if you challenge any of that femme
Speaker 1: fatale energy, channels any of that fem fatal energy into.
Speaker 2: Your chamelion stroll you.
Speaker 4: Rather than tell you, I'll show you wow.
Speaker 2: Oh wow baby. Oh yes, that looks amazing. Yeah, smoke show.
Speaker 2: That's a bad girl.
Speaker 4: So I wore the black wig, as you can tell.
Speaker 2: I had to.
Speaker 4: Okay, I couldn't play Velma without it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have more of roxy hair in real life.
Speaker 4: Yeah right, I couldn't. I couldn't smoke, uh in real life,
Speaker 4: you know, but I could smoke on this and I
Speaker 4: had a great time. Yeah, you know, It's it's always
Speaker 4: an honor to step into a classic show. You know,
Speaker 4: it's it's great to create a show, but to step
Speaker 4: into a show that's already so iconic, uh means they
Speaker 4: trust you.
Speaker 1: Just to uh get back a little bit to the
Speaker 1: SVU episode, we obviously need to talk about the scene
Speaker 1: where you are basically straddling Christopher Maloney.
Speaker 2: I mean, like, how how was that?
Speaker 1: Our listeners are going to need to hear the details?
Speaker 4: You know you said, Uh, that came so easily to
Speaker 4: me because I'm a dancer, and I yeah, I have
Speaker 4: no compunction about listen in in Chicago, we were straddling
Speaker 4: the audience basically especially the front row because in the
Speaker 4: in the song he had at common.
Speaker 2: Uh, we are.
Speaker 4: The sub black tango is the proper name for the dance,
Speaker 4: and so we we are all using our power zones
Speaker 4: right sometimes and power zones come in many, many versions
Speaker 4: of the female body and the female presence. And one
Speaker 4: of those power zones is to not be afraid of
Speaker 4: your growing area, of that area that is that scares
Speaker 4: a lot of men. So uh, And in that scene,
Speaker 4: if you watch closely when he leaves what and not
Speaker 4: maybe until he leaves, do you notice or when they
Speaker 4: pull back right before he leaves that her leg is
Speaker 4: between his legs, that I put my leg between his legs.
Speaker 4: So it was it was it was a threat as
Speaker 4: much as a come on. And uh, I'm pretty sure
Speaker 4: that was me because I know they said just feel
Speaker 4: free as you're as you're blocking this, as you're you're
Speaker 4: plotting this out to come around the table, and Chris
Speaker 4: was game, but I did make that choice because he
Speaker 4: was He was sitting with his legs apart for the
Speaker 4: same reason that legs apart stance is classic in the
Speaker 4: Animal Kingdom when when they are taking their ground right
Speaker 4: and uh, his legs were already a part on the chair,
Speaker 4: so I planted mine and it was a great moment
Speaker 4: for us to find that who's dominant. I not only
Speaker 4: was above him, but when my leg was between his,
Speaker 4: he's vulnerable.
Speaker 2: Right. Wow. The other you know, the ending of the
Speaker 2: episode with you hanging in your jail cell pretty wild.
Speaker 2: That was you. That wasn't like a yeah, a dummy situation.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah. And it was me that had the fight
Speaker 4: with Marriscow, which was really fun because again we know,
Speaker 4: we were acting class together, Larry Moss's class, and it
Speaker 4: was really fun to get that physical with her and
Speaker 4: for us to to because you know, we've hung out,
Speaker 4: and to have that that playful moment, because it does
Speaker 4: feel like play and it's rare that women get to
Speaker 4: do that, women of our age get to do that,
Speaker 4: you know. And then the scene in the jail cell,
Speaker 4: the scene was very simple for me. They I was
Speaker 4: actually seated on something right, so I wasn't stressed on.
Speaker 2: My neck right right.
Speaker 4: The hair and makeup was beautiful. I think I'd already
Speaker 4: done the courtroom scene, which those courtroom scenes are their
Speaker 4: own challenge, just the length of ours, the fact that
Speaker 4: you are not able to move as much, your energy
Speaker 4: doesn't get to move as much because you're in the
Speaker 4: in that witness stand. But by the time we shut that,
Speaker 4: you know, I had pretty much my work was done.
Speaker 2: I know you were in a DA and NYPD Blue,
Speaker 2: were you like sizing up? Stephanie March was there like
Speaker 2: eighty eight competitive games.
Speaker 4: She was so good, she's so good and and and
Speaker 4: they get to do so much more a DA work
Speaker 4: than I ever did on NiPd. But it was very
Speaker 4: rare that they really cases really went that far because
Speaker 4: it was about the cops and Sylvia became about the
Speaker 4: romance much more than about the system, the judicial system.
Speaker 4: What I also loved seeing was Judith Light because Judith
Speaker 4: and I did a musical together, we did company together.
Speaker 4: And I'm such a fan of hers and and love
Speaker 4: what she stands for and how she she uses her platform,
Speaker 4: you know, way back in the day for the AIDS ride.
Speaker 4: She and her husband have have been such a great
Speaker 4: source of advocacy for many causes. But what she's done
Speaker 4: for the gay community is just it's remarkable. And I
Speaker 4: don't know. Yeah, and then and Diane Weese two is
Speaker 4: she's a legend. She's a she is a legend. She's
Speaker 4: a theater legend, at the screen legend. And I love
Speaker 4: that they use the women in that show to talk
Speaker 4: about the politicization of cases about women, as particularly capital
Speaker 4: cases that involve women. It was it was a really
Speaker 4: smart twiss and the writers right, you know, Tara Butters
Speaker 4: and Michelle Rossi, those women who recognized that this is
Speaker 4: more than just a case that's salacious, it's a case
Speaker 4: about how do we balance justice.
Speaker 2: Well, we went on your Instagram and you are shooting
Speaker 2: Christmas House too, and two of your co stars are
Speaker 2: s vu a lum and I don't know if you
Speaker 2: knew that or not, but we got excited. Treat Williams
Speaker 2: and Jonathan Bennett were both in SVU episodes, so that
Speaker 2: was like a jam packed photo we saw. Did you
Speaker 2: guys ever chat about your SVUS?
Speaker 4: No, but I'm going to get on our family text
Speaker 4: right now. I knew it. Doesn't surprise me. Treat did
Speaker 4: because Treat's a New York based guy, so of course
Speaker 4: he did. He might have done it more than once,
Speaker 4: but I didn't know Jonathan. Good for him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was a high younger. He had some relations
Speaker 1: with a stepmother. It was a wild episode. Ooh ooh, okay, oh.
Speaker 2: What a nice lady. People are cool.
Speaker 1: She's also I wish you guys could I wish we
Speaker 1: could tape our interviews sometimes with visuals because she's so gorgeous.
Speaker 1: She looks like the same as she did on NYPD Blue,
Speaker 1: like twenty years ago.
Speaker 2: It's wild.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can catch her beautiful mug in the drama
Speaker 1: series Joe Pickett coming to Spectrum this winter, and she's
Speaker 1: going to be in the Christmas House too. Deck those
Speaker 1: Halls on Hallmark on December eighteenth. If you need a
Speaker 1: little Christmas movie in your Life and she's on that
Speaker 1: with Treat Williams, another SVU alum, Jonathan Bennett, and another
Speaker 1: SVU alum.
Speaker 2: It's like jam packed. And I love talking to people
Speaker 2: where you can tell they love their job, they're grateful
Speaker 2: for their lives and they're just like on the fucking
Speaker 2: ride and enjoying it. Yeah, and some love.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: She just really she has it all for me.
Speaker 1: And we were able to confirm a citation needed from Wikipedia.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a dream.
Speaker 1: We got to get in there and like put our
Speaker 1: like link to our episode as the confirmation that she
Speaker 1: got married in the same church as her character.
Speaker 2: So fun. No, we're very cool. Anytime I like start
Speaker 2: thinking about our lives and who we've talked to him,
Speaker 2: Like damn, just talented people everywhere. Such a blessing.
Speaker 1: But in today's post mortem, we probably learned.
Speaker 2: That the world is sex again. The page knucks. We
Speaker 2: have to We're gonna eventually have to change what this
Speaker 2: little segment is called, because what we learn every week
Speaker 2: is the world is endless horrors. Everyone hates women and
Speaker 2: there's nothing good in the world. And that's what we learn.
Speaker 2: You're just you know, kidnapping babies, hanging yourself at the
Speaker 2: prison and that's life.
Speaker 1: Wekay, Yeah, But I mean I do think the story
Speaker 1: of Eileen Morenos is like really is really tough. And
Speaker 1: I mean, I know everybody, like you know, everybody knows
Speaker 1: about it from Monster, the Charlie's movie and stuff and
Speaker 1: the Oscar buzz, But if you really think about it,
Speaker 1: it's like this was a person who had a really
Speaker 1: really traumatic upbringing and yes she committed some crimes, but
Speaker 1: it seems like a lot of her crimes were in
Speaker 1: self defense. I don't know, I just feel like if
Speaker 1: I think what we learn time and time again is
Speaker 1: that if sex work was to come out from the
Speaker 1: shadows more.
Speaker 2: We could protect sex workers more absolutely. And I think
Speaker 2: this kind of touches back on what we're talking about
Speaker 2: with the train attack in Pennsylvania recently, where it's like
Speaker 2: you knew this child was prostituting herself for cigarettes, you know,
Speaker 2: and food, and that her grandfother slashed dat whatever, was
Speaker 2: beating the shit out of her, like the community knew
Speaker 2: and did nothing. And we've talked about cases before where
Speaker 2: people know this house is weird, they don't see the
Speaker 2: kids except their marching at night, and it's like, save
Speaker 2: those kids. What the fuck you see this child who
Speaker 2: has nothing? But I bet that community, the whole community
Speaker 2: was poor. If she's living in the woods, like maybe
Speaker 2: they don't have. But you know, you hear these stories
Speaker 2: of like, yeah, my family took in our friend because
Speaker 2: their parents sucked, and you hear about these things, and
Speaker 2: it's like, be that person. Be the parents that take
Speaker 2: in a child of need and fucking help them if
Speaker 2: you have the me. It's just, yeah, it's used to
Speaker 2: be like it takes the village community, like all working together,
Speaker 2: and it's just becomes such an individualistic My nuclear family
Speaker 2: is all that matters vibes, and it's it's just disappointing.
Speaker 2: And I don't understand why we don't help each other.
Speaker 2: Yeah we do. We do have to help each other more,
Speaker 2: for sure, and just the laws like I didn't, I
Speaker 2: didn't really realize, you know. It's just upsetting that she
Speaker 2: wasn't even offered to be in prison, like she had
Speaker 2: to die like it is. It's sick. I think we
Speaker 2: learned that Christians are you know this guy, I won't say.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to say, you know what, I don't
Speaker 2: need to generalize. But no, but I think everybody needs
Speaker 2: I mean, I do think.
Speaker 1: We need to take a We need a referendum capital
Speaker 1: punishment in this country because it's just really not it's
Speaker 1: not the answer. It doesn't deter it doesn't do the
Speaker 1: things we think it's going to do. And I think
Speaker 1: that it's, uh, it's not the right way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it reminds me of Yosemite Sam's style government. You know,
Speaker 2: it's like, why are we taking clues from like a
Speaker 2: little cartoon guy, And that's what I feel. It's just
Speaker 2: a bunch of Yosemite Sam's running around me like let's
Speaker 2: shoot them all up? And it's just the women hating
Speaker 2: man hate. It's just yeah, I don't know. And why
Speaker 2: are expert witnesses not being called? You know, our judges
Speaker 2: just like having so much bias. What's up with the juris?
Speaker 2: Why didn't we move the trial? It's like everything is
Speaker 2: so deep and layered and there's so many elements and yeah, well,
Speaker 2: and we also learned about the cocktail personality, which may
Speaker 2: or may not be real, but that it is real,
Speaker 2: I guess because Sharon told us her husband knew about it.
Speaker 2: I just couldn't find anything about it specifically, because it's
Speaker 2: been flooded on the internet with what your cocktail quiz
Speaker 2: is about your personality, Like Cosmo, I'm lucky because my
Speaker 2: therapist isn't really a therapist, she's kind of a witch doctor,
Speaker 2: so we don't talk about any diagnoses. You're so lucky. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm just doing taro with my therapis.
Speaker 1: But I think it's I think a good postpartum takeaway
Speaker 1: is like, look out for people that have that, Like,
Speaker 1: look out for people that are telling you what you
Speaker 1: want to hear, and like then they tell the next
Speaker 1: person what they want to hear. Like just like, beware
Speaker 1: of those people because they're charming as fuck, but they
Speaker 1: are narcissists and.
Speaker 2: They'll fuck you in the end or kill you. And
Speaker 2: in comedy, well, so we have a friend who works
Speaker 2: in higher education and she did confirm that professors are
Speaker 2: more insane than comedians, so that's been nice. And then
Speaker 2: someone that works with comedians told me, she goes, that's
Speaker 2: horrifying that there's a group of people worse than comedians.
Speaker 2: And I hope that's not the takeaway I got from this,
Speaker 2: but I do think in our line of work we
Speaker 2: deal with a look. I guess all lines of we
Speaker 2: deal with a lot of mental illness and we need
Speaker 2: to take stock sometimes of how many psychopaths we are
Speaker 2: around all times, and it does affect us. But you're right,
Speaker 2: there's just like calculating people. They act different with different
Speaker 2: people they want to, I mean, and it takes a
Speaker 2: while to learn. I feel like you have to get
Speaker 2: burned time and time again before you like figure it out,
Speaker 2: because yeah, or who to trust? But I think we
Speaker 2: deal with a lot of shady people. Yeah, and show
Speaker 2: business kid, But I guess you know in higher education too. Yeah, true, true, true,
Speaker 2: don't trust anyone. But there's that book one in four
Speaker 2: people are sociopath like the sociopath next door? Oh really yeah,
Speaker 2: I think the theory is like one in four people, damn.
Speaker 2: And so then it's like, you know, you have to
Speaker 2: like think about that when you're dealing with someone. If
Speaker 2: like your boss is purposely fucking you all the time,
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, that might be a socio yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Like my like, we have a friend who's got a
Speaker 1: step child with her partner, and like the biological mom
Speaker 1: is like just a powder keg constantly about to go off.
Speaker 1: Like whenever something bad happens in her life, they know
Speaker 1: that they're going to start to get something from her,
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Like she's going to start to give them static.
Speaker 1: Because like it's something that happened to her, and so
Speaker 1: now she's like got to take it out on everyone
Speaker 1: around her.
Speaker 2: What's this powder? What's powder? Powder? Would you say? Powder?
Speaker 2: Like a powder keg?
Speaker 1: Never, I don't know, like a powder keg, like like
Speaker 1: I think, like an explosive base. A powder keg is
Speaker 1: like an explosive Yeah, oh I love it. I love
Speaker 1: getting a little word teaching to you, like a little phrase,
Speaker 1: turn a phrase, Hannah, Are you here to tell me
Speaker 1: that I'm wrong?
Speaker 2: Absolutely not, I'm here to have Lisa do a pickup.
Speaker 3: It's four percent of ordinary people one in twenty five,
Speaker 3: not one and four, which I feel like is an
Speaker 3: important thing to do a pickup of.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I think I just like make up or
Speaker 2: something like that.
Speaker 3: It's like not one and four, And I was like,
Speaker 3: I'm going to make sure that's correct.
Speaker 2: But four one in twenty five, but one in twenty five.
Speaker 2: We all know twenty five people. We all know multiples
Speaker 2: of twenty five PEPs.
Speaker 1: So you all know a few sociopaths in your life
Speaker 1: for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, nar like we're all I mean, yeah, the older
Speaker 2: you get, I mean, I can't wait to get more
Speaker 2: and more wise and understand more of the world. Like
Speaker 2: what I see now verse ten years ago is just
Speaker 2: such a difference about just like how to react. I
Speaker 2: don't know how to see things, like I can't wait
Speaker 2: to see what I learn in ten years. Yeah about
Speaker 2: all that. And you'll be dating Joe KOI, yeah, I'll
Speaker 2: be dating Joy No I who knows? Who knows? But
Speaker 2: that's funny. No, I want them to beat together.
Speaker 1: I know, I know you'll you'll be dating your Jokoy,
Speaker 1: your Jokoy, like whoever your JOKOI is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder. I think I did one episode of
Speaker 2: Chelsea with him, for sure. I did. Well.
Speaker 1: We probably don't have a picture of probably you and
Speaker 1: him and Margaret that you don't even remember. Oh no,
Speaker 1: it was you and Margaret and Ross Matthews.
Speaker 2: I can't believe you don't remember.
Speaker 1: But now you're so obsessed with drag Race you don't
Speaker 1: even remember that you've fully met him.
Speaker 2: Anyway. No, but someone on my Twitter was like, oh,
Speaker 2: are you going to be Ross Matthews for Halloween, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, is this shade or what? What are you doing?
Speaker 2: I don't know what that means. I don't know. Wait
Speaker 2: what is this?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Always wait, we're looking at Oh, it's me.
Speaker 1: I'm looking at a photo of a guy named Jeff Wilde,
Speaker 1: Liza Jokoy and Chewie Bravo, who was uh who has
Speaker 1: since passed, but I'm so jealous that Lisa got to
Speaker 1: meet him. I'm with you and that guy Jeff is
Speaker 1: who I wrote on white Out with Oh no way,
Speaker 1: Jeffy pot Jiffy call him Jiffy goes by jeff Now again,
Speaker 1: I think he only went by Jiffy because Chelsea called
Speaker 1: him that.
Speaker 2: And it was twenty fourteen everybody and twenty four boys Facebook.
Speaker 2: How did you find that so quick?
Speaker 1: I mean, that's why she's making the big books. And
Speaker 1: then all the comments are like, I love you, and
Speaker 1: then one of the comments is she's such a dick
Speaker 1: to you, Joe, Lol, guess what you're fucking now?
Speaker 2: Well, in the interview, she or they were like on INSTALLA,
Speaker 2: I don't know, I saw them talk. I'm like obsessed
Speaker 2: and on every content about Chelsea and Joe Koy, but
Speaker 2: she was just like, You've always had a crush on
Speaker 2: me and he's like, no, I did n't, and she's like, hiss,
Speaker 2: you did, but we had a Riffin wrap. I don't know,
Speaker 2: it's just it's cute.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's segue into this week's what would Sister Peg Do.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to highlight I found this Instagram account
Speaker 1: a while ago and I still fall of them.
Speaker 2: It's Her Whole Truth is what it's called.
Speaker 1: It's Instagram dot com forward slash Her Whole Truth w
Speaker 1: h O l E Truth, and it highlights stories and
Speaker 1: challenges of women on death Row and it's basically aiming
Speaker 1: to end the cycle of trauma and find out women's truths.
Speaker 1: So I just they were doing a lot to try
Speaker 1: to get a stay of execution for this woman that
Speaker 1: I've mentioned before who committed a horrible crime but also
Speaker 1: had a horrific upbringing. And there they're constantly sort of
Speaker 1: trying to end this cycle of violence that leads women
Speaker 1: to commit crimes that then they are punished for with
Speaker 1: capital punishment. So I think it's a good follow and
Speaker 1: they have more resources over there.
Speaker 2: Thank you for that. Yeah, this podcast is not for
Speaker 2: capital punishment. If you were wondering, So next week's episode,
Speaker 2: we're doing one of the best, one of the faves,
Speaker 2: one of the classics. I can't believe we finally get
Speaker 2: to talk about it. Taboo Seasons, episode fourteen fourteen divided
Speaker 2: by two is seven. It is magical, So enjoy that
Speaker 2: on peacock, Hulu or wherever you're catching up on SVU episodes,
Speaker 2: And as always, we're so happy that you listen and
Speaker 2: enjoy us. Keep us researching horrific crimes day in and
Speaker 2: day out.
Speaker 1: And feel free to dm us with your episode suggestions,
Speaker 1: and some people are sending us merch suggestions. We love
Speaker 1: talking to you guys, so yeah, send us messages and
Speaker 1: we'll see you next week.
Speaker 2: Bye bye. That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.
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Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to Yes for You, super fan
Speaker 2: and our incredible producer, Hannah Kyle Kraton.
Speaker 1: And to our sound engineer and personal hero, Analise Nilson.
Speaker 2: And to Henry Koperski for our theme song.
Speaker 1: To Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thanks to our
Speaker 1: executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody
Speaker 1: at Exactly Right Media.
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Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're an advertiser
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Speaker 2: com slash ads Done. Done